<< <i>Chipper10: I have said this many times here on the boards before ...
Anyone who seriously buys into the "conspiracy theory" ... I am happy to submit the coins under my dealer number and at roughly the same cost that Mercantis cost to slab using the collectors' club pricing.
I already submitted a sizeable number of these sets for collectors and everyone has been pleased with their results. That said, the results have been all over the place ... some close to what have been reported here and some far better. Every box of 25 coins is different than the next. My point is simply that PCGS has no idea whatsoever who owns the coins I am submitting. Hence, a conspiracy theory becomes quote far fetched in my view.
Wondercoin >>
Wonder -- Do you have an opinion on my speculation above? I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that there is a "conspiracy" in favor of dealers/bulk submitters. To the best of my knowledge, I as an individual could have made a bulk submission for this set as long as I was willing to submit 5 sets, which seems to be the number many folks submitted. Hardly an exclusive club, at least for this issue. The disparity between FS (including bulk submissions) and non-FS grades does, however, seem curious, especially since there is absolutely no difference to date between the two populations (since they were all struck at the same time and shipped by the mint in the first 30 days) other than the higher grading fees paid by bulk/FS submitters. Is there any way to account for this, other than a bias against those who don't pay the extra fee?
There is a whole lot more expense and processing involved to receive and return packaging.
I think they will be happy when these run their course.
That's why I was so happy to submit at the Baltimore show....I got back the OGP's right there(excluding the capsules of course!) Did I mention they returned 24 of 25 capsules.....no complaints since I rec'd two 70 sets!!!
"Is there any way to account for this, other than a bias against those who don't pay the extra fee?"
NJCoin - If a collector wanted to submit "through bulk" and pay the $225 or $250/set for Mercanti autographs, letter, etc. he becomes part of that "non-exclusive club" you allude to. Moreover, that same collector could ask me to submit that order under my dealer number for the same price.
But, that same collector could also submit the coin under Express service (which was done, because I bought an order from a board member after they got their coins back from doing exactly that) and pay EVEN MORE MONEY to get their order graded. So, now that collector is the "big spender" what does that do to that theory? I am responding here to the (illogical) theory that the folks that paid the most for Mercantis got better results.
As for the relatively small number of non-FS submissions ... I suspect those numbers will become a bit more "in line" with FS figures as thousands and thousands more coins are graded here in the next few months and quarters. Watch what happens and see if that indeed takes place.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>"Is there any way to account for this, other than a bias against those who don't pay the extra fee?"
NJCoin - If a collector wanted to submit "through bulk" and pay the $225 or $250/set for Mercanti autographs, letter, etc. he becomes part of that "non-exclusive club" you allude to. Moreover, that same collector could ask me to submit that order under my dealer number for the same price.
But, that same collector could also submit the coin under Express service (which was done, because I bought an order from a board member after they got their coins back from doing exactly that) and pay EVEN MORE MONEY to get their order graded. So, now that collector is the "big spender" what does that do to that theory? I am responding here to the (illogical) theory that the folks that paid the most for Mercantis got better results.
As for the relatively small number of non-FS submissions ... I suspect those numbers will become a bit more "in line" with FS figures as thousands and thousands more coins are graded here in the next few months and quarters. Watch what happens and see if that indeed takes place.
<< <i>"Is there any way to account for this, other than a bias against those who don't pay the extra fee?"
NJCoin - If a collector wanted to submit "through bulk" and pay the $225 or $250/set for Mercanti autographs, letter, etc. he becomes part of that "non-exclusive club" you allude to. Moreover, that same collector could ask me to submit that order under my dealer number for the same price.
But, that same collector could also submit the coin under Express service (which was done, because I bought an order from a board member after they got their coins back from doing exactly that) and pay EVEN MORE MONEY to get their order graded. So, now that collector is the "big spender" what does that do to that theory? I am responding here to the (illogical) theory that the folks that paid the most for Mercantis got better results.
As for the relatively small number of non-FS submissions ... I suspect those numbers will become a bit more "in line" with FS figures as thousands and thousands more coins are graded here in the next few months and quarters. Watch what happens and see if that indeed takes place.
Wondercoin >>
Sorry for the double post.
Wonder -- Thank you for your insight. Hopefully, you are correct. Otherwise, I will just have to suck it up and pay the extra $450 to have 5 sets labeled FS in order to have the 20% better shot at 70s.
I agree that the current non-FS sample is small in relation to FS, but the disparity in the 70 ratios between the two populations still seems very high. With respect to the Express "big spender," he does nothing to the theory. He received super fast service for his extra money, which in hindsight was worth its weight in gold given how the sets have performed since a few days after they hit eBay, and he still had the benefit of being in the FS pool.
Putting aside any theories about certain classes of submitters being treated differently than others (as you have correctly pointed out, not only could I, as an individual, submit through a dealer; I could also be a bulk submitter myself in this case simply by submitting a sealed box of 25 coins), the only thing we know so far is that FS costs at least an extra $18/coin (more for the special labels), has so far graded an extra 20% 70s (out of a population of hundreds for non-FS and thousands for FS), and has absolutely no difference whatsoever in the origin, quality or treatment of the unseen coins contained in the sealed boxes. It just looks strange, but does account for why people are willing to spend at least an extra $90/set for special labels that otherwise have no inherent value and do not distinguish the coins in any way (at least for this special set).
Got my results. I had initially requested non-FS, regular but when they called me and asked if I wanted FS, I decided I wanted the signature labels. I'm very pleased with the results, even though the signature sets have dropped considerably in value. Out of five sets, I got three complete 70 sets, plus one each 2011, 2011-W and 2011-S graded MS70, and the other seven coins graded 69.
<< <i>Got my results. I had initially requested non-FS, regular but when they called me and asked if I wanted FS, I decided I wanted the signature labels. I'm very pleased with the results, even though the signature sets have dropped considerably in value. Out of five sets, I got three complete 70 sets, plus one each 2011, 2011-W and 2011-S graded MS70, and the other seven coins graded 69. >>
So far there have been about 6000 sets graded with the last week a slowing down of numbers (400 less from prior week)
Even if in these 3 months there ends up 10,000 sets graded or 50,000 coins.
It is only about 10% of PCGS business for the quarter.
Why would they have anything but a passing interest in these coins which is more of a headache for them.
There is a whole lot more expense and processing involved to receive and return packaging.
I think they will be happy when these run their course.
Joe >>
I doubt that. At about $40 per coin for slabbing coins that for the most part don't require any research or much of a second look, I'm sure they are giddy about having them.
<< <i>Got my results. I had initially requested non-FS, regular but when they called me and asked if I wanted FS, I decided I wanted the signature labels. I'm very pleased with the results, even though the signature sets have dropped considerably in value. Out of five sets, I got three complete 70 sets, plus one each 2011, 2011-W and 2011-S graded MS70, and the other seven coins graded 69. >>
When did PCGS receive your order? >>
I submitted at the Santa Clara Coin Show last month. It took awhile for my order to get transferred to the Bulk department. I'm fairly certain they only got graded in the past few days.
<< <i>Got my results. I had initially requested non-FS, regular but when they called me and asked if I wanted FS, I decided I wanted the signature labels. I'm very pleased with the results, even though the signature sets have dropped considerably in value. Out of five sets, I got three complete 70 sets, plus one each 2011, 2011-W and 2011-S graded MS70, and the other seven coins graded 69. >>
When did PCGS receive your order? >>
I submitted at the Santa Clara Coin Show last month. It took awhile for my order to get transferred to the Bulk department. I'm fairly certain they only got graded in the past few days. >>
<< <i>Got my results. I had initially requested non-FS, regular but when they called me and asked if I wanted FS, I decided I wanted the signature labels. I'm very pleased with the results, even though the signature sets have dropped considerably in value. Out of five sets, I got three complete 70 sets, plus one each 2011, 2011-W and 2011-S graded MS70, and the other seven coins graded 69. >>
When did PCGS receive your order? >>
I submitted at the Santa Clara Coin Show last month. It took awhile for my order to get transferred to the Bulk department. I'm fairly certain they only got graded in the past few days. >>
Congrats!! >>
Thanks, blu62vette.
By the way, I know none of the coins were outside of the capsules since I got to open them in the presence of PCGS. My box also made lots of noise whenever it was tilted as most of the capsules were not seated.
<< <i>Got my results. I had initially requested non-FS, regular but when they called me and asked if I wanted FS, I decided I wanted the signature labels. I'm very pleased with the results, even though the signature sets have dropped considerably in value. Out of five sets, I got three complete 70 sets, plus one each 2011, 2011-W and 2011-S graded MS70, and the other seven coins graded 69. >>
When did PCGS receive your order? >>
I submitted at the Santa Clara Coin Show last month. It took awhile for my order to get transferred to the Bulk department. I'm fairly certain they only got graded in the past few days. >>
Congrats!! >>
Thanks, blu62vette.
By the way, I know none of the coins were outside of the capsules since I got to open them in the presence of PCGS. My box also made lots of noise whenever it was tilted as most of the capsules were not seated. >>
coasterfan:
How many sets did you submit at the show in order to get bulk submission status?
I hit the jackpot with my submission fo 5 sealed sets (results posted a few pages back). I finally received them in hand today and CHA-CHING! I got 40 capsules instead of 25! Woohoo!
It's kind of a capsule lottery I've noticed, with any coins you send in. Sometimes you get them, sometimes you don't, sometimes you get shorted, and now I know that sometimes you get extra.
<< <i>I took a look at all shared orders for unopened sets for all of November and compiled all the data into a spreadsheet. Matches up with what's being said, shared orders and member reported numbers seem much lower than population reports.
Oh, and you will notice FS versus non-FS numbers don't match up evenly. There was one box of 5 sets that appears to have been judged to not be mint sealed by PCGS and thus 3/5 got non-FS and the keys got FS. I know I've read at least one report of this happening so I left that submission in my numbers.
Otherwise I removed ALL submissions of just the keys as they were clearly picked over. These numbers should represent unopened boxes.
I'll run the data again later into December...
>>
willagaroon, as Bill O'Reilly says...."I'm a simple man"...please talk to me on a child's level in reference to your spreadsheet!
How many sets did you submit at the show in order to get bulk submission status? >>
I submitted five sets, which is the absolute minimum they would accept. Four sets won't cut it. They dropped the minimum requirement of 100 coins for the 25th Anniversary Silver Sets only.
What did it cost for the signature label per set besides the $14 per coin for regular grading & $18 per coin for first strike? >>
It's a flat $250 per set for the signature label. That includes First Strike designation. So it's $90 more per set than getting the Flag labels.
The labels that are commonly being referred to as "tombstones" (black stripe on top, no signature) are $200 per set. $40 more per set than getting the Flag labels.
<< <i>What did it cost for the signature label per set besides the $14 per coin for regular grading & $18 per coin for first strike? >>
It's a flat $250 per set for the signature label. That includes First Strike designation. So it's $90 more per set than getting the Flag labels.
The labels that are commonly being referred to as "tombstones" (black stripe on top, no signature) are $200 per set. $40 more per set than getting the Flag labels. >>
Did PCGS publish this anywhere? I fell really disappointed as I didn't know about these options and I still don't know how to find out about these options for future submissions. Screw the peon submitters like me, reward your big bulk submitters and those who happen to be lucky enough to be able to submit at a show.
<< <i>Were the first strike flag labels also available in bulk with a minimum of 5 sets? >>
That's a good question. I do not know. >>
This may be why folks think there will be a flood of flags late in the game -- because it was not an option in bulk, however could be wrong about that. ASE Mercanti bulk submissions return quickly & %'s of 70's are showing higher than non-FS and FS flags overall. Some surmise paying the added premium is worth the quick return and possibly special treatment.
Anybody's guess. Still wondering about whether flags were an option in bulk for 5 sets.
What customer service told me on the phone was the flag label is what you get if you don't pay for the signature label or the tombstone label. The reason I called customer service up was when I read the submission rules about two weeks ago I do believe it said you had to have a minimum of 100 coins and no more than 4 different coins or mint marks. But they changed the rules because of the 25th set. I never could find anything about the signature label or the tombstone label mentioned on PCGS's web site. Maybe the dealers were sent something in the mail or emailed to them? Any dealers out there that can clear this up?
<< <i>What customer service told me on the phone was the flag label is what you get if you don't pay for the signature label or the tombstone label. The reason I called customer service up was when I read the submission rules about two weeks ago I do believe it said you had to have a minimum of 100 coins and no more than 4 different coins or mint marks. But they changed the rules because of the 25th set. I never could find anything about the signature label or the tombstone label mentioned on PCGS's web site. Maybe the dealers were sent something in the mail or emailed to them? Any dealers out there that can clear this up? >>
There's no excuse for this lack of communication. They send TWO emails out about 25th Ann Set submission guidelines but absolutely NO MENTION of labeling or bulk-submission options.
<< <i>What did it cost for the signature label per set besides the $14 per coin for regular grading & $18 per coin for first strike? >>
It's a flat $250 per set for the signature label. That includes First Strike designation. So it's $90 more per set than getting the Flag labels.
The labels that are commonly being referred to as "tombstones" (black stripe on top, no signature) are $200 per set. $40 more per set than getting the Flag labels. >>
Did PCGS publish this anywhere? I fell really disappointed as I didn't know about these options and I still don't know how to find out about these options for future submissions. Screw the peon submitters like me, reward your big bulk submitters and those who happen to be lucky enough to be able to submit at a show. >>
It was posted in a couple of the threads by myself and a few other individuals. I don't think PCGS made any kind of formal announcement. I first found out about it in the comments of one of Michael's blog posts over at MintNewsBlog. At the time this information was posted in the threads, nobody knew how the sets were grading, so I think most ignored it. Plus quite a few seemed to prefer the Flag labels.
Okay, I dug up the comment that someone posted on Michael's blog where I learned the general public could get the Mercanti signature labels.
In the Middle says:
November 11, 2011 at 6:29 pm
I sent an E-Mail to earlier in the week to PCGS that went like this:
“PCGS:
I have a question concerning the 25th Anniversary Set and grading. I really want to do business with PCGS for this release. Here is the issue, NGC is offering the coins to be labeled 25th Anniversary along with their Early Release designation for $17 dollars per coin. PCGS will cost at least $32 per coin, $14 for the Modern Issue grading and $ 18 for First Strike designation. I have 5 sets, I am having a hard time justifying the $375 dollars difference for essentially the same service.
Is PCGS planning on matching the NGC offer or something similar? I would hate to take my business to NGC for this release but in these tough economic times every penny counts. I look forward to your response.”
PCGS response:
“Dear Collector Club Member:
The arrival of the highly anticipated, limited edition 25th Anniversary Silver Eagle 5 Piece Set from the United States Mint is right around the corner. What a better way to commemorate such a stunning addition to your coin collection than to have them graded and encapsulated in a PCGS holder! We have two options for you when it comes to getting your coins into a holder.
The first option is the “Ultimate Bulk Package.” For a minimum of five (5) sets: you can receive each of your coins numerically graded by PCGS. The insert is specially designed to showcase an autograph by the 12th Chief Engraver of the US Mint and designer of the reverse of the Silver Eagle, John M. Mercanti. An autographed letter from Mr. Mercanti congratulating you on your historic set, will also be included. Each coin will also be eligible to receive First Strike® designation. All of this can be yours for $250.00 per set.
The second option is a new insert specifically developed for the 25th Anniversary of the Silver Eagle.
For a minimum of five (5) sets: You can receive each of your coins numerically graded by PCGS. Each coin will also be eligible to receive First Strike® designation. This option is available to you for only $200.00 per set.
Simply send in your US Mint sealed boxes to receive either of these special offers on your PCGS Submission Form, request which insert you would prefer and all coins will be placed into a tamper-evident holder. The coins must come sealed in order to receive both the “First Strike” and the “25th Anniversary Set” designation. Feel free to contact myself or our Bulk Staff should you have any further questions regarding the grading of this set. We are at your service and look forward to hearing from you!
I still don't think PCGS customers should need to scour the message board to learn these details. I don't understand why those details couldn't have been included in either of the 2 broadcast emails PCGS sent out, or posted on the website somewhere. Are my expectations too high?
<< <i>I still don't think PCGS customers should need to scour the message board to learn these details. I don't understand why those details couldn't have been included in either of the 2 broadcast emails PCGS sent out, or posted on the website somewhere. Are my expectations too high? >>
In your second to last post you said a lot of people choose the flag label over the other two labels. How come we are just starting to see the flag label in the past week and before it was the other two labels. I think it is because the turn-around time for the signature label and tombstone label was a lot less than the flag label?
I asked PCGS if they would be willing to swap the labels from Mercanti to Flag and there's a small fee for it (reholder fee?). I'm thinking more like the flippers realize this and paid for the swap and are selling it with flag labels now. Either way, I like the flag labels and am looking forward to completing my 70 set as the prices go down. Still a little stunned the 2011-W proof DCAM is $350.00ish though. THe other 2011-W seems to be around $150.00
In your second to last post you said a lot of people choose the flag label over the other two labels. How come we are just starting to see the flag label in the past week and before it was the other two labels. I think it is because the turn-around time for the signature label and tombstone label was a lot less than the flag label? >>
It's a mystery to me as to why the bulk (no pun intended) of the first sets on Ebay were the non-Flag labels. Presumably these were dealers, but I don't know how they got their sets to PCGS so quickly, particularly if they had to get the majority of their sets from those who pre-sold to them. Perhaps they didn't have them in-hand yet and were taking a risk that they had enough sets submitted that they would get a certain number of 70 sets.
The turnaround time I got was decent, but not particularly speedy.
If you submit at a coin show, their fine print says they do not accept bulk submissions. I initially submitted as a regular submission and had made up my mind to get the non-FS blue labels (the cheapest way to grade). PCGS called me and asked if I wanted First Strike since my coins were eligible. I used that as an opportunity to ask about the Mercanti signed labels. When they said I was eligible to get the labels, I told them to go ahead. If you submit at a show and want the Mercanti or tombstone labels, you may need to do something similar.
I gave way more of the details than I needed to but I figured some people might ask. The important part is at the bottom where it shows each of the five coins and the percentage for grades 70-65.
Basically out of 268 sets which show in the "Shared Orders" pages from November (sent unopened to PCGS) the percents break down as follows:
In your second to last post you said a lot of people choose the flag label over the other two labels. How come we are just starting to see the flag label in the past week and before it was the other two labels. I think it is because the turn-around time for the signature label and tombstone label was a lot less than the flag label? >>
It's a mystery to me as to why the bulk (no pun intended) of the first sets on Ebay were the non-Flag labels. Presumably these were dealers, but I don't know how they got their sets to PCGS so quickly, particularly if they had to get the majority of their sets from those who pre-sold to them. Perhaps they didn't have them in-hand yet and were taking a risk that they had enough sets submitted that they would get a certain number of 70 sets.
The turnaround time I got was decent, but not particularly speedy. >>
PCGS included prioraty service to those that selected the more expensive labels.
In your second to last post you said a lot of people choose the flag label over the other two labels. How come we are just starting to see the flag label in the past week and before it was the other two labels. I think it is because the turn-around time for the signature label and tombstone label was a lot less than the flag label? >>
It's a mystery to me as to why the bulk (no pun intended) of the first sets on Ebay were the non-Flag labels. Presumably these were dealers, but I don't know how they got their sets to PCGS so quickly, particularly if they had to get the majority of their sets from those who pre-sold to them. Perhaps they didn't have them in-hand yet and were taking a risk that they had enough sets submitted that they would get a certain number of 70 sets.
The turnaround time I got was decent, but not particularly speedy. >>
PCGS included prioraty service to those that selected the more expensive labels. >>
This is another thing that should have been announced way before now. There were just too many labels and that is why even the folks on ebay are asking whats up? Its just another reason the dealers beat out the rest of us. And still wondered about the one on the shared page that showed they WERE doing a minimun grade, Now who WAS THat for? Its says bulk submitting will not show up on the shared page, so it must be a collector who got to ask for a minimum grade? And yet no one here knows how? Dealers claimed they were not allowed to do this, somebody was........Enjoy
<< <i>Oh my the above submission just hurts. I mean why even have them graded. >>
Because when you look at the pop reports, it appears as if well more than half the coins are getting 70s on average.
But of the individuals (non-bulk order dealers) that have submitted and posted results here and via the shared order page, I've only seen a few out of dozens get over 50% grading 70. For the pop reports to make sense, it seems that some folks who are keeping quiet had submissions that came back with nearly all coins grading 70...
<< <i>Oh my the above submission just hurts. I mean why even have them graded. >>
Because when you look at the pop reports, it appears as if well more than half the coins are getting 70s on average.
But of the individuals (non-bulk order dealers) that have submitted and posted results here and via the shared order page, I've only seen a few out of dozens get over 50% grading 70. For the pop reports to make sense, it seems that some folks who are keeping quiet had submissions that came back with nearly all coins grading 70... >>
As of 12/18/11.....We still have a very small population of Non First Strike® inventory, yet the 69 to 70 ratio is quite interesting!!!!...namely the keys, ~2 to 1 on the RP.....~3 to 1 on the 'S' Unc
I saw 2 orders of 5 sets (25 coins total) on the shared order page yesterday... one order got 4/25 in 70 and the other order got 5/25. Neither order scored a 70 on the 2011-S and only one of them got 1 70 on a reverse proof.
Several possible conclusions can be draw from the pop reports and the shared orders that have been made available. That said, I think the sealed box of 5 sets that I still have is going across the street...
I saw 2 orders of 5 sets (25 coins total) on the shared order page yesterday... one order got 4/25 in 70 and the other order got 5/25. Neither order scored a 70 on the 2011-S and only one of them got 1 70 on a reverse proof.
Sure makes one think that the early coins submitted were better Mint quality than the later ones. What else could it be??? Aside from the bulk submissions!
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
What is the difference between a shared order and a regular one? Thanks in advance for educating me!
You have the option to share results [of Grading your coins at PCGS].
http://www.pcgs.com/membership/Shared.aspx
CHECK out the link. >>
Thanks!
<< <i>Chipper10: I have said this many times here on the boards before ...
Anyone who seriously buys into the "conspiracy theory" ... I am happy to submit the coins under my dealer number and at roughly the same cost that Mercantis cost to slab using the collectors' club pricing.
I already submitted a sizeable number of these sets for collectors and everyone has been pleased with their results. That said, the results have been all over the place ... some close to what have been reported here and some far better. Every box of 25 coins is different than the next. My point is simply that PCGS has no idea whatsoever who owns the coins I am submitting. Hence, a conspiracy theory becomes quote far fetched in my view.
Wondercoin >>
Wonder -- Do you have an opinion on my speculation above? I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that there is a "conspiracy" in favor of dealers/bulk submitters. To the best of my knowledge, I as an individual could have made a bulk submission for this set as long as I was willing to submit 5 sets, which seems to be the number many folks submitted. Hardly an exclusive club, at least for this issue. The disparity between FS (including bulk submissions) and non-FS grades does, however, seem curious, especially since there is absolutely no difference to date between the two populations (since they were all struck at the same time and shipped by the mint in the first 30 days) other than the higher grading fees paid by bulk/FS submitters. Is there any way to account for this, other than a bias against those who don't pay the extra fee?
I think they will be happy when these run their course.
That's why I was so happy to submit at the Baltimore show....I got back the OGP's right there(excluding the capsules of course!)
Did I mention they returned 24 of 25 capsules.....no complaints since I rec'd two 70 sets!!!
NJCoin - If a collector wanted to submit "through bulk" and pay the $225 or $250/set for Mercanti autographs, letter, etc. he becomes part of that "non-exclusive club" you allude to. Moreover, that same collector could ask me to submit that order under my dealer number for the same price.
But, that same collector could also submit the coin under Express service (which was done, because I bought an order from a board member after they got their coins back from doing exactly that) and pay EVEN MORE MONEY to get their order graded. So, now that collector is the "big spender" what does that do to that theory? I am responding here to the (illogical) theory that the folks that paid the most for Mercantis got better results.
As for the relatively small number of non-FS submissions ... I suspect those numbers will become a bit more "in line" with FS figures as thousands and thousands more coins are graded here in the next few months and quarters. Watch what happens and see if that indeed takes place.
Wondercoin
<< <i>"Is there any way to account for this, other than a bias against those who don't pay the extra fee?"
NJCoin - If a collector wanted to submit "through bulk" and pay the $225 or $250/set for Mercanti autographs, letter, etc. he becomes part of that "non-exclusive club" you allude to. Moreover, that same collector could ask me to submit that order under my dealer number for the same price.
But, that same collector could also submit the coin under Express service (which was done, because I bought an order from a board member after they got their coins back from doing exactly that) and pay EVEN MORE MONEY to get their order graded. So, now that collector is the "big spender" what does that do to that theory? I am responding here to the (illogical) theory that the folks that paid the most for Mercantis got better results.
As for the relatively small number of non-FS submissions ... I suspect those numbers will become a bit more "in line" with FS figures as thousands and thousands more coins are graded here in the next few months and quarters. Watch what happens and see if that indeed takes place.
Wondercoin >>
<< <i>"Is there any way to account for this, other than a bias against those who don't pay the extra fee?"
NJCoin - If a collector wanted to submit "through bulk" and pay the $225 or $250/set for Mercanti autographs, letter, etc. he becomes part of that "non-exclusive club" you allude to. Moreover, that same collector could ask me to submit that order under my dealer number for the same price.
But, that same collector could also submit the coin under Express service (which was done, because I bought an order from a board member after they got their coins back from doing exactly that) and pay EVEN MORE MONEY to get their order graded. So, now that collector is the "big spender" what does that do to that theory? I am responding here to the (illogical) theory that the folks that paid the most for Mercantis got better results.
As for the relatively small number of non-FS submissions ... I suspect those numbers will become a bit more "in line" with FS figures as thousands and thousands more coins are graded here in the next few months and quarters. Watch what happens and see if that indeed takes place.
Wondercoin >>
Sorry for the double post.
Wonder -- Thank you for your insight. Hopefully, you are correct. Otherwise, I will just have to suck it up and pay the extra $450 to have 5 sets labeled FS in order to have the 20% better shot at 70s.
I agree that the current non-FS sample is small in relation to FS, but the disparity in the 70 ratios between the two populations still seems very high. With respect to the Express "big spender," he does nothing to the theory. He received super fast service for his extra money, which in hindsight was worth its weight in gold given how the sets have performed since a few days after they hit eBay, and he still had the benefit of being in the FS pool.
Putting aside any theories about certain classes of submitters being treated differently than others (as you have correctly pointed out, not only could I, as an individual, submit through a dealer; I could also be a bulk submitter myself in this case simply by submitting a sealed box of 25 coins), the only thing we know so far is that FS costs at least an extra $18/coin (more for the special labels), has so far graded an extra 20% 70s (out of a population of hundreds for non-FS and thousands for FS), and has absolutely no difference whatsoever in the origin, quality or treatment of the unseen coins contained in the sealed boxes. It just looks strange, but does account for why people are willing to spend at least an extra $90/set for special labels that otherwise have no inherent value and do not distinguish the coins in any way (at least for this special set).
<< <i>Got my results. I had initially requested non-FS, regular but when they called me and asked if I wanted FS, I decided I wanted the signature labels. I'm very pleased with the results, even though the signature sets have dropped considerably in value. Out of five sets, I got three complete 70 sets, plus one each 2011, 2011-W and 2011-S graded MS70, and the other seven coins graded 69. >>
When did PCGS receive your order?
<< <i>Last quarter (ending 9/30) PCGS graded 478800 coins.
So far there have been about 6000 sets graded with the last week a slowing down of numbers (400 less from prior week)
Even if in these 3 months there ends up 10,000 sets graded or 50,000 coins.
It is only about 10% of PCGS business for the quarter.
Why would they have anything but a passing interest in these coins which is more of a headache for them.
There is a whole lot more expense and processing involved to receive and return packaging.
I think they will be happy when these run their course.
Joe >>
I doubt that. At about $40 per coin for slabbing coins that for the most part don't require any research or much of a second look, I'm sure they are giddy about having them.
<< <i>
<< <i>Got my results. I had initially requested non-FS, regular but when they called me and asked if I wanted FS, I decided I wanted the signature labels. I'm very pleased with the results, even though the signature sets have dropped considerably in value. Out of five sets, I got three complete 70 sets, plus one each 2011, 2011-W and 2011-S graded MS70, and the other seven coins graded 69. >>
When did PCGS receive your order? >>
I submitted at the Santa Clara Coin Show last month. It took awhile for my order to get transferred to the Bulk department. I'm fairly certain they only got graded in the past few days.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Got my results. I had initially requested non-FS, regular but when they called me and asked if I wanted FS, I decided I wanted the signature labels. I'm very pleased with the results, even though the signature sets have dropped considerably in value. Out of five sets, I got three complete 70 sets, plus one each 2011, 2011-W and 2011-S graded MS70, and the other seven coins graded 69. >>
When did PCGS receive your order? >>
I submitted at the Santa Clara Coin Show last month. It took awhile for my order to get transferred to the Bulk department. I'm fairly certain they only got graded in the past few days. >>
Congrats!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Got my results. I had initially requested non-FS, regular but when they called me and asked if I wanted FS, I decided I wanted the signature labels. I'm very pleased with the results, even though the signature sets have dropped considerably in value. Out of five sets, I got three complete 70 sets, plus one each 2011, 2011-W and 2011-S graded MS70, and the other seven coins graded 69. >>
When did PCGS receive your order? >>
I submitted at the Santa Clara Coin Show last month. It took awhile for my order to get transferred to the Bulk department. I'm fairly certain they only got graded in the past few days. >>
Congrats!! >>
Thanks, blu62vette.
By the way, I know none of the coins were outside of the capsules since I got to open them in the presence of PCGS. My box also made lots of noise whenever it was tilted as most of the capsules were not seated.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Got my results. I had initially requested non-FS, regular but when they called me and asked if I wanted FS, I decided I wanted the signature labels. I'm very pleased with the results, even though the signature sets have dropped considerably in value. Out of five sets, I got three complete 70 sets, plus one each 2011, 2011-W and 2011-S graded MS70, and the other seven coins graded 69. >>
When did PCGS receive your order? >>
I submitted at the Santa Clara Coin Show last month. It took awhile for my order to get transferred to the Bulk department. I'm fairly certain they only got graded in the past few days. >>
Congrats!! >>
Thanks, blu62vette.
By the way, I know none of the coins were outside of the capsules since I got to open them in the presence of PCGS. My box also made lots of noise whenever it was tilted as most of the capsules were not seated. >>
coasterfan:
How many sets did you submit at the show in order to get bulk submission status?
It's kind of a capsule lottery I've noticed, with any coins you send in. Sometimes you get them, sometimes you don't, sometimes you get shorted, and now I know that sometimes you get extra.
<< <i>I took a look at all shared orders for unopened sets for all of November and compiled all the data into a spreadsheet. Matches up with what's being said, shared orders and member reported numbers seem much lower than population reports.
Oh, and you will notice FS versus non-FS numbers don't match up evenly. There was one box of 5 sets that appears to have been judged to not be mint sealed by PCGS and thus 3/5 got non-FS and the keys got FS. I know I've read at least one report of this happening so I left that submission in my numbers.
Otherwise I removed ALL submissions of just the keys as they were clearly picked over. These numbers should represent unopened boxes.
I'll run the data again later into December...
willagaroon, as Bill O'Reilly says...."I'm a simple man"...please talk to me on a child's level in reference to your spreadsheet!
<< <i>coasterfan:
How many sets did you submit at the show in order to get bulk submission status? >>
I submitted five sets, which is the absolute minimum they would accept. Four sets won't cut it. They dropped the minimum requirement of 100 coins for the 25th Anniversary Silver Sets only.
What did it cost for the signature label per set besides the $14 per coin for regular grading & $18 per coin for first strike?
<< <i>coasterfan:
What did it cost for the signature label per set besides the $14 per coin for regular grading & $18 per coin for first strike? >>
It's a flat $250 per set for the signature label. That includes First Strike designation. So it's $90 more per set than getting the Flag labels.
The labels that are commonly being referred to as "tombstones" (black stripe on top, no signature) are $200 per set. $40 more per set than getting the Flag labels.
<< <i>Were the first strike flag labels also available in bulk with a minimum of 5 sets? >>
That's a good question. I do not know.
<< <i>
<< <i>What did it cost for the signature label per set besides the $14 per coin for regular grading & $18 per coin for first strike? >>
It's a flat $250 per set for the signature label. That includes First Strike designation. So it's $90 more per set than getting the Flag labels.
The labels that are commonly being referred to as "tombstones" (black stripe on top, no signature) are $200 per set. $40 more per set than getting the Flag labels. >>
Did PCGS publish this anywhere? I fell really disappointed as I didn't know about these options and I still don't know how to find out about these options for future submissions. Screw the peon submitters like me, reward your big bulk submitters and those who happen to be lucky enough to be able to submit at a show.
<< <i>
<< <i>Were the first strike flag labels also available in bulk with a minimum of 5 sets? >>
That's a good question. I do not know. >>
This may be why folks think there will be a flood of flags late in the game -- because it was not an option in bulk, however could be wrong about that. ASE Mercanti bulk submissions return quickly & %'s of 70's are showing higher than non-FS and FS flags overall. Some surmise paying the added premium is worth the quick return and possibly special treatment.
Anybody's guess. Still wondering about whether flags were an option in bulk for 5 sets.
<< <i>What customer service told me on the phone was the flag label is what you get if you don't pay for the signature label or the tombstone label. The reason I called customer service up was when I read the submission rules about two weeks ago I do believe it said you had to have a minimum of 100 coins and no more than 4 different coins or mint marks. But they changed the rules because of the 25th set. I never could find anything about the signature label or the tombstone label mentioned on PCGS's web site. Maybe the dealers were sent something in the mail or emailed to them? Any dealers out there that can clear this up? >>
There's no excuse for this lack of communication. They send TWO emails out about 25th Ann Set submission guidelines but absolutely NO MENTION of labeling or bulk-submission options.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What did it cost for the signature label per set besides the $14 per coin for regular grading & $18 per coin for first strike? >>
It's a flat $250 per set for the signature label. That includes First Strike designation. So it's $90 more per set than getting the Flag labels.
The labels that are commonly being referred to as "tombstones" (black stripe on top, no signature) are $200 per set. $40 more per set than getting the Flag labels. >>
Did PCGS publish this anywhere? I fell really disappointed as I didn't know about these options and I still don't know how to find out about these options for future submissions. Screw the peon submitters like me, reward your big bulk submitters and those who happen to be lucky enough to be able to submit at a show. >>
It was posted in a couple of the threads by myself and a few other individuals. I don't think PCGS made any kind of formal announcement. I first found out about it in the comments of one of Michael's blog posts over at MintNewsBlog. At the time this information was posted in the threads, nobody knew how the sets were grading, so I think most ignored it. Plus quite a few seemed to prefer the Flag labels.
In the Middle says:
November 11, 2011 at 6:29 pm
I sent an E-Mail to earlier in the week to PCGS that went like this:
“PCGS:
I have a question concerning the 25th Anniversary Set and grading. I really want to do business with PCGS for this release. Here is the issue, NGC is offering the coins to be labeled 25th Anniversary along with their Early Release designation for $17 dollars per coin. PCGS will cost at least $32 per coin, $14 for the Modern Issue grading and $ 18 for First Strike designation. I have 5 sets, I am having a hard time justifying the $375 dollars difference for essentially the same service.
Is PCGS planning on matching the NGC offer or something similar? I would hate to take my business to NGC for this release but in these tough economic times every penny counts. I look forward to your response.”
PCGS response:
“Dear Collector Club Member:
The arrival of the highly anticipated, limited edition 25th Anniversary Silver Eagle 5 Piece Set from the United States Mint is right around the corner. What a better way to commemorate such a stunning addition to your coin collection than to have them graded and encapsulated in a PCGS holder! We have two options for you when it comes to getting your coins into a holder.
The first option is the “Ultimate Bulk Package.” For a minimum of five (5) sets: you can receive each of your coins numerically graded by PCGS. The insert is specially designed to showcase an autograph by the 12th Chief Engraver of the US Mint and designer of the reverse of the Silver Eagle, John M. Mercanti. An autographed letter from Mr. Mercanti congratulating you on your historic set, will also be included. Each coin will also be eligible to receive First Strike® designation. All of this can be yours for $250.00 per set.
The second option is a new insert specifically developed for the 25th Anniversary of the Silver Eagle.
For a minimum of five (5) sets: You can receive each of your coins numerically graded by PCGS. Each coin will also be eligible to receive First Strike® designation. This option is available to you for only $200.00 per set.
Simply send in your US Mint sealed boxes to receive either of these special offers on your PCGS Submission Form, request which insert you would prefer and all coins will be placed into a tamper-evident holder. The coins must come sealed in order to receive both the “First Strike” and the “25th Anniversary Set” designation. Feel free to contact myself or our Bulk Staff should you have any further questions regarding the grading of this set. We are at your service and look forward to hearing from you!
Miles Standish
Vice President – PCGS
Senior Grader – PCGS
If you would like to participate in this program, please sign up for our bulk program here: http://www.pcgs.com/bulksubmissionagreement.html.
Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.
Thank you”
<< <i>I still don't think PCGS customers should need to scour the message board to learn these details. I don't understand why those details couldn't have been included in either of the 2 broadcast emails PCGS sent out, or posted on the website somewhere. Are my expectations too high? >>
In your second to last post you said a lot of people choose the flag label over the other two labels. How come we are just starting to see the flag label in the past week and before it was the other two labels. I think it is because the turn-around time for the signature label and tombstone label was a lot less than the flag label?
<< <i>coasterfan:
In your second to last post you said a lot of people choose the flag label over the other two labels. How come we are just starting to see the flag label in the past week and before it was the other two labels. I think it is because the turn-around time for the signature label and tombstone label was a lot less than the flag label? >>
It's a mystery to me as to why the bulk (no pun intended) of the first sets on Ebay were the non-Flag labels. Presumably these were dealers, but I don't know how they got their sets to PCGS so quickly, particularly if they had to get the majority of their sets from those who pre-sold to them. Perhaps they didn't have them in-hand yet and were taking a risk that they had enough sets submitted that they would get a certain number of 70 sets.
The turnaround time I got was decent, but not particularly speedy.
If you submit at a coin show, their fine print says they do not accept bulk submissions. I initially submitted as a regular submission and had made up my mind to get the non-FS blue labels (the cheapest way to grade). PCGS called me and asked if I wanted First Strike since my coins were eligible. I used that as an opportunity to ask about the Mercanti signed labels. When they said I was eligible to get the labels, I told them to go ahead. If you submit at a show and want the Mercanti or tombstone labels, you may need to do something similar.
I gave way more of the details than I needed to but I figured some people might ask. The important part is at the bottom where it shows each of the five coins and the percentage for grades 70-65.
Basically out of 268 sets which show in the "Shared Orders" pages from November (sent unopened to PCGS) the percents break down as follows:
2011
29.10% MS70
63.06% MS69
2011-S
20.90% MS70
72.01% MS69
2011-W
46.27% MS70
49.63% MS69
2011-W Proof
27.61% PR70
63.43% PR69
2011-P Rev Proof
39.18% PR70
51.87% PR69
<< <i>
<< <i>coasterfan:
In your second to last post you said a lot of people choose the flag label over the other two labels. How come we are just starting to see the flag label in the past week and before it was the other two labels. I think it is because the turn-around time for the signature label and tombstone label was a lot less than the flag label? >>
It's a mystery to me as to why the bulk (no pun intended) of the first sets on Ebay were the non-Flag labels. Presumably these were dealers, but I don't know how they got their sets to PCGS so quickly, particularly if they had to get the majority of their sets from those who pre-sold to them. Perhaps they didn't have them in-hand yet and were taking a risk that they had enough sets submitted that they would get a certain number of 70 sets.
The turnaround time I got was decent, but not particularly speedy. >>
PCGS included prioraty service to those that selected the more expensive labels.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>coasterfan:
In your second to last post you said a lot of people choose the flag label over the other two labels. How come we are just starting to see the flag label in the past week and before it was the other two labels. I think it is because the turn-around time for the signature label and tombstone label was a lot less than the flag label? >>
It's a mystery to me as to why the bulk (no pun intended) of the first sets on Ebay were the non-Flag labels. Presumably these were dealers, but I don't know how they got their sets to PCGS so quickly, particularly if they had to get the majority of their sets from those who pre-sold to them. Perhaps they didn't have them in-hand yet and were taking a risk that they had enough sets submitted that they would get a certain number of 70 sets.
The turnaround time I got was decent, but not particularly speedy. >>
PCGS included prioraty service to those that selected the more expensive labels. >>
This is another thing that should have been announced way before now. There were just too many labels and that is why even the folks on ebay are asking whats up? Its just another reason the dealers beat out the rest of us. And still wondered about the one on the shared page that showed they WERE doing a minimun grade, Now who WAS THat for? Its says bulk submitting will not show up on the shared page, so it must be a collector who got to ask for a minimum grade? And yet no one here knows how? Dealers claimed they were not allowed to do this, somebody was........Enjoy
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
Nothing wrong with 69's, but not to get one 70 grade out of 10?????
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>Oh my the above submission just hurts. I mean why even have them graded. >>
Because when you look at the pop reports, it appears as if well more than half the coins are getting 70s on average.
But of the individuals (non-bulk order dealers) that have submitted and posted results here and via the shared order page, I've only seen a few out of dozens get over 50% grading 70. For the pop reports to make sense, it seems that some folks who are keeping quiet had submissions that came back with nearly all coins grading 70...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
That was the stock market.
<< <i>
<< <i>Oh my the above submission just hurts. I mean why even have them graded. >>
Because when you look at the pop reports, it appears as if well more than half the coins are getting 70s on average.
But of the individuals (non-bulk order dealers) that have submitted and posted results here and via the shared order page, I've only seen a few out of dozens get over 50% grading 70. For the pop reports to make sense, it seems that some folks who are keeping quiet had submissions that came back with nearly all coins grading 70... >>
Logic would dictate just that
<< <i>Does anyone have the NGC stats, I thought I read that they have graded 11,000 sets of 70's...is that correct? >>
NGC has graded 16,000 sets and they have 10,000 NGC70 sets.
PCGS has graded 6,000 sets and they have 3,000 PCGS70 sets.
2011 Reverse Proof total graded 15,901
70s = 10,474
69s = 5,405
68s = 16
2011 25 th Aniv W (PF) Eagle total graded = 15,539
70s = 11,366
69s = 4,111
68s = 48
67s = 12
66s = 1
65s = 1
2011 25 th Aniv Bullion (MS) Eagle total graded = 15,506
70s = 11,255
69s = 4,193
68s = 42
67s = 11
66s = 5
2011 25 th Aniv W (MS) Eagle total graded = 15,523
70s = 11,687
69s = 3,809
68s = 24
67s = 3
2011 25 th Aniv S (MS) Eagle total graded = 15,834
70s = 11,558
69s = 4,242
68s = 24
67s = 2
66s = 2
<< <i>NGC Census report for the 25th anniversary silver eagle set so far as of 12/13
2011 Reverse Proof total graded 15,901
70s = 10,474
69s = 5,405
68s = 16
2011 25 th Aniv W (PF) Eagle total graded = 15,539
70s = 11,366
69s = 4,111
68s = 48
67s = 12
66s = 1
65s = 1
2011 25 th Aniv Bullion (MS) Eagle total graded = 15,506
70s = 11,255
69s = 4,193
68s = 42
67s = 11
66s = 5
2011 25 th Aniv W (MS) Eagle total graded = 15,523
70s = 11,687
69s = 3,809
68s = 24
67s = 3
2011 25 th Aniv S (MS) Eagle total graded = 15,834
70s = 11,558
69s = 4,242
68s = 24
67s = 2
66s = 2 >>
Thanks much ibex66, looks like NGC loves their 70's!!!!!
I'm amazed they found a 65!!
First Strike®..............
Non First Strike............................
****************************************************************************************************************
POPS as of 12/11/11............................
First Strike®..............
...............................................................................................................................................................................................
Non First Strike............................
Several possible conclusions can be draw from the pop reports and the shared orders that have been made available. That said, I think the sealed box of 5 sets that I still have is going across the street...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Week 1 450 sets graded
Week 2 700 sets graded
Week 3 2500 sets graded
Week 4 2150 sets graded
Week 5 1100 sets graded
With a smaller sampling in week 5 70's percentage pushing 60% for the week
Joe
<< <i>
<< <i>NGC Census report for the 25th anniversary silver eagle set so far as of 12/13
2011 Reverse Proof total graded 15,901
70s = 10,474
69s = 5,405
68s = 16
2011 25 th Aniv W (PF) Eagle total graded = 15,539
70s = 11,366
69s = 4,111
68s = 48
67s = 12
66s = 1
65s = 1
2011 25 th Aniv Bullion (MS) Eagle total graded = 15,506
70s = 11,255
69s = 4,193
68s = 42
67s = 11
66s = 5
2011 25 th Aniv W (MS) Eagle total graded = 15,523
70s = 11,687
69s = 3,809
68s = 24
67s = 3
2011 25 th Aniv S (MS) Eagle total graded = 15,834
70s = 11,558
69s = 4,242
68s = 24
67s = 2
66s = 2 >>
Thanks much ibex66, looks like NGC loves their 70's!!!!!
I'm amazed they found a 65!!
Makes me wonder if ANACS % of 70's is that high
Sure makes one think that the early coins submitted were better Mint quality than the later ones.
What else could it be??? Aside from the bulk submissions!