OK, I compared it to a 2011 (S) and I can see the difference in the color of the 2 eagles and I can see what I think is a very small bump on the tailfeathers.
The dealers (who have likely seen the most of these) and TPGs have been silent on the issue. So far from boardmembers it seems that every coin can be differentiated from the "regular" 2011 bullion. I have yet to open my box and check them out.
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It doesn't have to be an 11 bullion to compare with -- use any bullion silver eagle for comparison. These are more "frosty" than most burnished SAEs. This implies fresh dies were used, and well burnished blanks.
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A friend of mine opened his set and said he's never seen coins like these - that they had crystals on them. Guess that was his way of saying they were frosty. It pained me greatly not to open mine. I sold half and sent the other half to PCGS. I probably won't get to see any of these until after Christmas, and then they'll be entombed in plastic.
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I hear ya, I bought an extra set that was opened to see them!
Crystals? Must have a powerful scope.
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<< <i>A friend of mine opened his set and said he's never seen coins like these - that they had crystals on them. Guess that was his way of saying they were frosty. It pained me greatly not to open mine. I sold half and sent the other half to PCGS. I probably won't get to see any of these until after Christmas, and then they'll be entombed in plastic. >>
On the bright side you get Crystals inside the plastic too. On another note what is the pop report for the 25th Anniv. ASE (S) in MS70
<< <i>A friend of mine opened his set and said he's never seen coins like these - that they had crystals on them. Guess that was his way of saying they were frosty. It pained me greatly not to open mine. I sold half and sent the other half to PCGS. I probably won't get to see any of these until after Christmas, and then they'll be entombed in plastic. >>
On the bright side you get Crystals inside the plastic too. On another note what is the pop report for the 25th Anniv. ASE (S) in MS70 >>
<< <i>They ARE special. the mint has certified that they ARE "S" coins. >>
Wrong, The mint, on the COA, certified they are "San Francisco or West Point" coins. Any subsequent press release or statement from the mint saying different brings into question the validity of anything they "certify" on a COA. The whole fiasco on mint location only reminds us they are just another government operation.
<< <i>What is going to happen with these coins? Are they going to go crazy in price? Should we start buying them while the price is still reasonable? >>
I'd be stocking up on the COAs. That's where the "error" appears.
FYI, in case you aren't following the 25th mega thread, there is some interesting discussion about the bullion. Look for Sat morning's posts here.
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All of my 2011 set coins have the same burnished finish and the 2011 & 2011-S coins all have the "Dimpled Tail." None of the others have the dimple on the tail. Has anyone found a bullion 2011 (non-set) with a dimple?
I was digging around ATS and found a reply to a thread( by YoYo Spin) from an NGC rep on November 21st:
"Thank you for the question. We will not be recognizing a new variety for the bullion coin in the 25th Anniversary Set. These coins will receive the 25th Anniversary Set pedigree if received in the sealed boxes, and that is enough distinction. There is otherwise no perceivable difference between the bullion coins from the set and from monster boxes."
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I have not seen the CW article, but it sounds like the Mint denies it did anything different with these than bullions. However, they do admit that they were all struck at S and it appears they were a separate/special run of bullions just for this set, possibly with new dies different than the regular S bullions, and possibly handled with special care.
I think I'll hang onto mine for a while.
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Since these were specially minted, they could have used more pressure on the coin press. They also could have struck the coin multiple times. On the other hand, perhaps these 100,000 coins are just what real "First Strike" coins look like, since these coins were the first 100,000 made using these dies.
<< <i>Since these were specially minted, they could have used more pressure on the coin press. They also could have struck the coin multiple times. On the other hand, perhaps these 100,000 coins are just what real "First Strike" coins look like, since these coins were the first 100,000 made using these dies. >>
Do you think only one set of dies were used? I wonder what the life span of a die set is?
From the US Mint archives concerning production per die:
<< <i>For bullion American Eagle and American Buffalo Coins, the United States Mint makes an average of about 6,000 coins from one die set. For proof versions of the 2006 American Buffalo Coins, the yield is an average of about 1,500 coins per die set. For proof versions of the American Eagle Coins, the yield is an average of about 300-500 coins per die set. This means that coins may be minted from new die sets at any point and at multiple times while production of a coin is ongoing, not just the first day or at the beginning of production. >>
<< <i>Either way, the non-S SF bullion coin looks a lot more attractive to me than ordinary bullion. >>
It also makes you wonder why they do look different is the dies are changed out consistently when striking the regular bullion and the bullion for this set. I believe the Mint made an error and used the burnished blank but won't come clean. IMOP
If they used the same blanks and the dies were changed out after 6,000 coins, the 25th set coin should look the same as the bullion coin.
<< <i>From the US Mint archives concerning production per die:
<< <i>For bullion American Eagle and American Buffalo Coins, the United States Mint makes an average of about 6,000 coins from one die set. For proof versions of the 2006 American Buffalo Coins, the yield is an average of about 1,500 coins per die set. For proof versions of the American Eagle Coins, the yield is an average of about 300-500 coins per die set. This means that coins may be minted from new die sets at any point and at multiple times while production of a coin is ongoing, not just the first day or at the beginning of production. >>
>>
Kinda makes ya think "just what the heck is First Strike coins any way"...???........
<< <i>Kinda makes ya think "just what the heck is First Strike coins any way"...???........ >>
The mint does not track individual coins after they are produced, "First Strike" is just a marketing terminology that each grading company interprets as they see fit.
Question posed in another thread on specifics of how SAEs are burnished. See linky.
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I bought a 2011 bullion coin today, I noticed that the bullion version has die chips or dots under the stars on top row, right under between the points on the reverse and the 25th anniversary version does not any.......
I just did my own inspection of what I have and this is what I found:
(I compared two 2011 bullions and two 2011-(S) struck at SF bullions with the bullion and the S mintmark in the ASE 25th Anniversary Set.)
Anniversary Set S mintmark -- has the dimple in the tail feather Anniversary Set bullion (no mintmark) -- has the dimple in the tail feather Non-anniversary set bullion PCGS MS70 -- no dimple Non-anniversary set bullion Struck at SF PCGS MS70 -- has the dimple
My conclusion: the West Point minted bullion (no mintmark) does not have the dimple the SF minted bullion (no mintmark) has the dimple
I also compared these with the W mintmark in the ASE anniversary set and the non-anniversary set. The non-anniversary set bullion 2011 (no mintmark) has the same tail feather feature as the W-mintmark -- no dimple in the tail feather. I believe this non-anniversary set bullion version was struck at the WP mint.
I can't take pics, but the ones posted here on Page 8 show the difference very well. For what it's worth, I believe that the dimple in the tail feather is a marker for the SF Mint-struck bullion.
(Edited to add comparison to W mintmark) (Edited to add page number)
<< <i>I just did my own inspection of what I have and this is what I found:
(I compared two 2011 bullions and two 2011-(S) struck at SF bullions with the bullion and the S mintmark in the ASE 25th Anniversary Set.)
Anniversary Set S mintmark -- has the dimple in the tail feather Anniversary Set bullion (no mintmark) -- has the dimple in the tail feather Non-anniversary set bullion PCGS MS70 -- no dimple Non-anniversary set bullion Struck at SF PCGS MS70 -- has the dimple
My conclusion: the West Point minted bullion (no mintmark) does not have the dimple the SF minted bullion (no mintmark) has the dimple
I can't take pics, but the ones posted here show the difference very well. For what it's worth, I believe that the dimple in the tail feather is a marker for the SF Mint-struck bullion. >>
could it be possible that the both the 25th ann bullion and S dies came from the same master die template, but they could end of up at different mints.
<< <i>I just did my own inspection of what I have and this is what I found:
(I compared two 2011 bullions and two 2011-(S) struck at SF bullions with the bullion and the S mintmark in the ASE 25th Anniversary Set.)
Anniversary Set S mintmark -- has the dimple in the tail feather Anniversary Set bullion (no mintmark) -- has the dimple in the tail feather Non-anniversary set bullion PCGS MS70 -- no dimple Non-anniversary set bullion Struck at SF PCGS MS70 -- has the dimple
My conclusion: the West Point minted bullion (no mintmark) does not have the dimple the SF minted bullion (no mintmark) has the dimple
I can't take pics, but the ones posted here show the difference very well. For what it's worth, I believe that the dimple in the tail feather is a marker for the SF Mint-struck bullion. >>
I've read other posts where people claim the faux labeled (S) coins from earlier this year did NOT have the dimple. Even if only a few have it, that's enough to essentially disqualify the 25th set bullion coin from being an additional 100K variety. Granted the finish still looks quite nice and sets it apart from what I've seen, but if the dimple can be found on regular bullion than I think this coin will never be accepted as a true variety. ...Bummer, but oh well :
For my own knowledge, I wanted to be able to tell the difference between the SF struck and WP struck bullion. So I bought graded 2011-(S), 2011-S, 2011-W (burnished) and 2011 to compare with each other and with the 2011-S, 2011-W, and 2011 in the anniversary set.
FWIW, I happened to be down at my old coin shop today, and looked at the singleton 2011 silver eagles being sold out of a monster box. All of them had the same "dimple" on the tail feather as the no-mintmark bullion coin in the five-coin set on display.
Therefore, the no-mintmark bullion coins with the "dimple" on the tail are not unique to the five-coin sets.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
This is the first report of a non-25th bullion I've heard with the tail dimple...
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This is the first report of a non-25th bullion I've heard with the tail dimple... >>
Single-coin sales box. All of the coins in it had the dimple.
I brought one home with me to study. I'll try to take a picture of it, but do not have a macro lens.
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I've looked at 100's of San Fran bullion coins and haven't found any with the dimple, yet all of my 2011 & 2001-S "Set" coins have the dimple...I also have not seen a set 2011 that doesn't look burnished...
<< <i>I've looked at 100's of San Fran bullion coins and haven't found any with the dimple, yet all of my 2011 & 2001-S "Set" coins have the dimple...I also have not seen a set 2011 that doesn't look burnished... >>
Obviously one slightly defective hub made many dies, as hubs do, and multiple dies from this batch were shipped from Philadelphia to San Francisco. However, that does not mean that other dies from that batch were not sent to West Point and used.
Again, the bottom line is that the dimple alone is not a reliable indication of where a particular coin was struck. Could be San Francisco, could be West Point.
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Comments
There is too much silence on this but seems to be some smoke arising, in my humble opinion, and where I come from where there's smoke there
is usually some fire. I guess we shall see.
A friend of mine opened his set and said he's never seen coins like these - that they had crystals on them. Guess that was his way of saying they were frosty. It pained me greatly not to open mine. I sold half and sent the other half to PCGS. I probably won't get to see any of these until after Christmas, and then they'll be entombed in plastic.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
~ Vince Lombardi
Crystals? Must have a powerful scope.
That's the scary part - he said that was literally what they looked like - without magnification!
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
~ Vince Lombardi
<< <i>A friend of mine opened his set and said he's never seen coins like these - that they had crystals on them. Guess that was his way of saying they were frosty. It pained me greatly not to open mine. I sold half and sent the other half to PCGS. I probably won't get to see any of these until after Christmas, and then they'll be entombed in plastic.
On the bright side you get Crystals inside the plastic too.
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<< <i>
<< <i>A friend of mine opened his set and said he's never seen coins like these - that they had crystals on them. Guess that was his way of saying they were frosty. It pained me greatly not to open mine. I sold half and sent the other half to PCGS. I probably won't get to see any of these until after Christmas, and then they'll be entombed in plastic.
On the bright side you get Crystals inside the plastic too.
1,784 in FS
<< <i>They ARE special. the mint has certified that they ARE "S" coins. >>
Wrong, The mint, on the COA, certified they are "San Francisco or West Point" coins. Any subsequent press release or statement from the mint saying different brings into question the validity of anything they "certify" on a COA. The whole fiasco on mint location only reminds us they are just another government operation.
<< <i>What is going to happen with these coins? Are they going to go crazy in price? Should we start buying them while the price is still reasonable? >>
I'd be stocking up on the COAs. That's where the "error" appears.
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"Thank you for the question. We will not be recognizing a new variety for the bullion coin in the 25th Anniversary Set. These coins will receive the 25th Anniversary Set pedigree if received in the sealed boxes, and that is enough distinction. There is otherwise no perceivable difference between the bullion coins from the set and from monster boxes."
What then is causing the coins to look so different side by side?
I think I'll hang onto mine for a while.
<< <i>I have not seen the CW article, but >>
It's free to join. Why not take 10 seconds to register for the online edition and give it a read?
<< <i>Since these were specially minted, they could have used more pressure on the coin press. They also could have struck the coin multiple times. On the other hand, perhaps these 100,000 coins are just what real "First Strike" coins look like, since these coins were the first 100,000 made using these dies. >>
Do you think only one set of dies were used? I wonder what the life span of a die set is?
<< <i>For bullion American Eagle and American Buffalo Coins, the United States Mint makes an average of about 6,000 coins from one die set. For proof versions of the 2006 American Buffalo Coins, the yield is an average of about 1,500 coins per die set. For proof versions of the American Eagle Coins, the yield is an average of about 300-500 coins per die set. This means that coins may be minted from new die sets at any point and at multiple times while production of a coin is ongoing, not just the first day or at the beginning of production. >>
<< <i>Either way, the non-S SF bullion coin looks a lot more attractive to me than ordinary bullion. >>
It also makes you wonder why they do look different is the dies are changed out consistently when striking the regular bullion and the bullion for this set. I believe the Mint made an error and used the burnished blank but won't come clean. IMOP
If they used the same blanks and the dies were changed out after 6,000 coins, the 25th set coin should look the same as the bullion coin.
<< <i>From the US Mint archives concerning production per die:
<< <i>For bullion American Eagle and American Buffalo Coins, the United States Mint makes an average of about 6,000 coins from one die set. For proof versions of the 2006 American Buffalo Coins, the yield is an average of about 1,500 coins per die set. For proof versions of the American Eagle Coins, the yield is an average of about 300-500 coins per die set. This means that coins may be minted from new die sets at any point and at multiple times while production of a coin is ongoing, not just the first day or at the beginning of production. >>
>>
Kinda makes ya think "just what the heck is First Strike coins any way"...???........
<< <i>Kinda makes ya think "just what the heck is First Strike coins any way"...???........
The mint does not track individual coins after they are produced, "First Strike" is just a marketing terminology that each grading company interprets as they see fit.
<< <i> It seems ER is more realistic than FS when it comes to labels. >>
no difference when they all sold out in one day.
FR: first released?
(I compared two 2011 bullions and two 2011-(S) struck at SF bullions with the bullion and the S mintmark in the ASE 25th Anniversary Set.)
Anniversary Set S mintmark -- has the dimple in the tail feather
Anniversary Set bullion (no mintmark) -- has the dimple in the tail feather
Non-anniversary set bullion PCGS MS70 -- no dimple
Non-anniversary set bullion Struck at SF PCGS MS70 -- has the dimple
My conclusion:
the West Point minted bullion (no mintmark) does not have the dimple
the SF minted bullion (no mintmark) has the dimple
I also compared these with the W mintmark in the ASE anniversary set and the non-anniversary set.
The non-anniversary set bullion 2011 (no mintmark) has the same tail feather feature as the W-mintmark -- no dimple in the tail feather.
I believe this non-anniversary set bullion version was struck at the WP mint.
I can't take pics, but the ones posted here on Page 8 show the difference very well.
For what it's worth, I believe that the dimple in the tail feather is a marker for the SF Mint-struck bullion.
(Edited to add comparison to W mintmark)
(Edited to add page number)
<< <i>I just did my own inspection of what I have and this is what I found:
(I compared two 2011 bullions and two 2011-(S) struck at SF bullions with the bullion and the S mintmark in the ASE 25th Anniversary Set.)
Anniversary Set S mintmark -- has the dimple in the tail feather
Anniversary Set bullion (no mintmark) -- has the dimple in the tail feather
Non-anniversary set bullion PCGS MS70 -- no dimple
Non-anniversary set bullion Struck at SF PCGS MS70 -- has the dimple
My conclusion:
the West Point minted bullion (no mintmark) does not have the dimple
the SF minted bullion (no mintmark) has the dimple
I can't take pics, but the ones posted here show the difference very well.
For what it's worth, I believe that the dimple in the tail feather is a marker for the SF Mint-struck bullion. >>
could it be possible that the both the 25th ann bullion and S dies came from the same master die template, but they could end of up at different mints.
<< <i>I just did my own inspection of what I have and this is what I found:
(I compared two 2011 bullions and two 2011-(S) struck at SF bullions with the bullion and the S mintmark in the ASE 25th Anniversary Set.)
Anniversary Set S mintmark -- has the dimple in the tail feather
Anniversary Set bullion (no mintmark) -- has the dimple in the tail feather
Non-anniversary set bullion PCGS MS70 -- no dimple
Non-anniversary set bullion Struck at SF PCGS MS70 -- has the dimple
My conclusion:
the West Point minted bullion (no mintmark) does not have the dimple
the SF minted bullion (no mintmark) has the dimple
I can't take pics, but the ones posted here show the difference very well.
For what it's worth, I believe that the dimple in the tail feather is a marker for the SF Mint-struck bullion. >>
I've read other posts where people claim the faux labeled (S) coins from earlier this year did NOT have the dimple. Even if only a few have it, that's enough to essentially disqualify the 25th set bullion coin from being an additional 100K variety. Granted the finish still looks quite nice and sets it apart from what I've seen, but if the dimple can be found on regular bullion than I think this coin will never be accepted as a true variety. ...Bummer, but oh well :
The strike and finish are not like the regular bullion. They are different than the regular non-anniversary set bullion.
I need to edit and add to my post above that I also compared with the W burnished mintmark.
The tail feather on the non-SF struck bullion (non-anniversary set) looks like the W-mintmark (burnished) bullion -- no dimple in the tail feather.
Edited for clarification
<< <i>I can't take pics
For what it's worth, I believe that the dimple in the tail feather is a marker for the SF Mint-struck bullion. >>
nobody listens, but
if santa brings me the hand held digital microscope, i will take close up pictures.
my S mint has a subtle dimple compared to the (S) which is crisp.
i do not have any SF (S) bullion for comparison.
I looked with a 30x mag
Therefore, the no-mintmark bullion coins with the "dimple" on the tail are not unique to the five-coin sets.
TD
This is the first report of a non-25th bullion I've heard with the tail dimple...
<< <i>What's a "singleton" 2011 sae?
This is the first report of a non-25th bullion I've heard with the tail dimple... >>
Single-coin sales box. All of the coins in it had the dimple.
I brought one home with me to study. I'll try to take a picture of it, but do not have a macro lens.
<< <i>I've looked at 100's of San Fran bullion coins and haven't found any with the dimple, yet all of my 2011 & 2001-S "Set" coins have the dimple...I also have not seen a set 2011 that doesn't look burnished... >>
Obviously one slightly defective hub made many dies, as hubs do, and multiple dies from this batch were shipped from Philadelphia to San Francisco. However, that does not mean that other dies from that batch were not sent to West Point and used.
Again, the bottom line is that the dimple alone is not a reliable indication of where a particular coin was struck. Could be San Francisco, could be West Point.