Grats to all who picked up some nice minis tonight. That 460 PSA 10 was unreal.
I picked up a set earlier today that was interesting as well. Was listed as having 40 psa graded HoFers with an average of 7, but it happened to include a PSA 9 Rice as well as PSA 8 Brett and Ryan, with no commons graded, so crossing my fingers on a find or two on those :-)
I love the Montague, Burleson, Stanley and the Carroll. To me, the McEnaney looks to be MC in the upper left side. Also, how does the Wise 9 not get PD for the print waves at the top. Several of my 8 red/yellows have this at the top. I always thought that these should have been graded PD.
Of them all, I hated selling the Montague and Burleson the most. Most of these went to Eric originally and I'm pretty sure he made money on those when his set broke and they went in a few different directions. I was glad as he paid well for them originally.
Nice cards, Jim! Great meeting you for dinner last night at well~was a lot of fun!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It was a great time. I'm glad we did it and look forward to doing it again soon. Probably cant happen soon enough for my wife who is happy anytime I find someone else to talk cards at :-p
WOW! Just gave the psa 9s a peek and somehow stumbled onto a PSA9 full-sized Gator! #371. I'll try to get a pic up soon but holy smokes, that had TheBuzztroop #2 set written all over it. 499.00 was a pretty fair price for a pop 4 with perhaps only a couple full-sized
<< <i>Diamond in the rough! Seller could have more than doubled his money had it been in an open auction. Congrats Henry! >>
Thanks MM, the seller actually read my posts - we exchanged mails on ebay. He is not a mini collector per se but acquired this card from a top-secret source wherein he has been able to buy cards that he can flip. He bought this card for 250.00! Good for him as he definitely seems to have an eye for valuable cards. So the original source will be a mystery. As for value, that is the tough part about minis as you know as an expert - when we get to the point of the high-grade/low pop it totally depends on who catches the auction. If it were me and you budding heads who knows? He mentioned that he had a standing offer of 450.00 and was just about to accept when I came on. The 1/1 PSA 10 sold a couple times just north of 1000.00. This is where valuation becomes very tricky. So if you surmise that the 9 could sell for 1K then what would/should the 1/1 psa10 sell for? Also, the Brett 9 has been at around 1K so how can one reconcile the two prices? To be honest, there has been a huge amount of discussion regarding valuation and prices here and on the other forums. I have developed my own valuation scheme and bid accordingly but I am not entirely sure I am correct.
I realize this is not the BST thread but I’ve been following this thread for a while and it seems I may have a better chance here.
I’ve recently opened 21 packs of 1975 Topps minis and I'm thinking of building a nice raw '75 mini set. Wondering if anyone here might have a nice large starter set lot that you'd be interested in selling. I'm looking for pack fresh cards that just didn't make the cut to submit to PSA. I’m not as concerned about centering as most people are.
If anyone has a good lot that I can start with, please PM me. I really don’t want to go the eBay route as I know I’ll just get junk that way.
<< <i>I picked up a set earlier today that was interesting as well. Was listed as having 40 psa graded HoFers with an average of 7, but it happened to include a PSA 9 Rice as well as PSA 8 Brett and Ryan, with no commons graded, so crossing my fingers on a find or two on those :-) >>
Jim: How did this set turn out to be? My snipe was set pretty high on that set, but not enough to go off... just wondered if it was any good? Thanks.
Mixed bag at 900. Nice set, but no home run. Listed most of the graded and sold the Rice for 340. Pulled 39 to grade and sold the rest as a very nice foundation set. A few of the 39 will n6, but have to try. For example, a sharp and centered Grimsley, just short.
Some really nice 9s just went through the mill on ebay. Looks like "The Hill Collection" strikes again. I picked up a few nice cards but lost most of the auctions anyone else pick some up?
<< <i>Some really nice 9s just went through the mill on ebay. Looks like "The Hill Collection" strikes again. I picked up a few nice cards but lost most of the auctions anyone else pick some up? >>
I picked up Soderholm, Singer and 1955 MVP cards for a shade over $100 total. Was underbidder on the Zisk card to a person who shall remain nameless.
Was going to go after a few more but bypassed on cards with tilts.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I won 8 cards, including 5 for $10 or less, the most interesting of which was the 194 Mantle MVP. Lost on any that would have been actual upgrades to my set though :-(
Wonder who's set that was. There were some pretty nice cards there, particularly the Gullett, which I expected to go for more.
Hey Jim, You know I would have been all over that Gullett but it is actually short! It was strategically placed. I also wonder whose set this was, I agree there were many nice 9s
I believe MM was the winner of the Gullet card. It was short but possibly naturally so, though I prefer full-sized on those despite that, even if they are much tougher to find.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Can someone give an executive summary on the natural vs unnatural shorts? I have some cards straight from wax and the usual shorties are much shorter than the correct size but I know they are not trimmed as they have a solid provenance. So they are natural shorts but probably not in the way being referred to in the posts above.
<< <i>Can someone give an executive summary on the natural vs unnatural shorts? I have some cards straight from wax and the usual shorties are much shorter than the correct size but I know they are not trimmed as they have a solid provenance. So they are natural shorts but probably not in the way being referred to in the posts above. >>
There is some disagreement among experts here. First, we are only talking about the cards that are red/yellow green/yellow as they are the only legitimate cards that will sometimes come up short in packs. As indy demonstrated with sheet jpgs., this was based on sheet placement. One view, is that we can allow for cards in that particular color variation to come up short and there is more of a "grey" area allowed. I am of a dissenting opinion. 1. The people who say this often have a "self-interested" motive. We all are, because anyone who has accumulated raw minis have beautiful examples of these variations that are just short. 2. The definition of a PSA 10 or PSA 9 are near perfect cards. How can we justify a "short" PSA9 Alou which is 1/16 shorter (glaring) next to a full-sized PSA9? The full-sized card IS the intended size. My view is that if PSA wants to encapsulate these cards then they should put a MC designation because indeed these cards are miscut. 3. If you find short cards (that aren't cut) it is almost certain that these cards were from the years before PSA tightened their scrutiny. It is almost impossible to get short cards encapsulated today.
Some members keep sending in short cards anyway hoping to slip one through. I find this behavior wrong for the hobby. But I understand it from the standpoint that there is disagreement on whether there is such a thing as a natural short card. I just don't understand the logic to be honest. There are natural O/C, and natural printing defects like massive fish eyes - should we ignore them because they are "natural?" A 90/10 centering occurred naturally did it not? It is quite noticeable. What then is the logic of saying a card that virtually swims in the case is just as strong as a card that fills the case? Sorry for the rant. Having said that, of course, I have a self-interest because I have a huge accumulation of full-sized minis and destroyed all the short cards (cut or natural) in my collection.
Henry is absolutely correct--the only naturally "short" cards out of the pack should be those with red top and yellow bottom or those with green top and yellow bottom. I also agree with Henry in as far as saying that as a collector, I would much rather prefer a "full-sized" example of these naturally short cards over one that is short from the factory. That said, I don't have the same disdain for red/yellow or green/yellow shorties as those which should NOT be short out of the pack. Conversely, there are certain color combos that are "long" out of the mini pack--notably those with tan top and and blue bottom or those with pink top and yellow bottom (which includes all the "rookie cards". These mini cards are usually holdered in the unpopular "baggy" instead of the brackets.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I have a few thoughts on this issue. For one, I don't believe there was an absolute "intended size" by Topps' printers for the mini's. If that were the case, then every card would have been precisely 80 mm or 81 mm or whatever. They just didn't target that kind of absolute precision for every card. The same holds for image registry, image position (tilt versus non-tilt), and every other visual card attribute. This was a test issue, and obviously, they weren't going to put as much effort into quality control on these as they did with the regular issue. I don't blame them - I wouldn't want to sink too much time and expense into perfecting the card, so to speak, unless I was reasonably certain that the kids were going to accept a smaller card. The absolute card size that we're talking about here (80 mm tall) is the creation of the grading companies, for a number of good reasons, and of we adult-collectors who love these cards 40 years after they were issued. For these reasons, I would rather that PSA not put an MC qualifier on them when the card otherwise looks visually all there. Doing that would just confuse things and frustrate many of those who submit them.
With that said, I go back and forth over whether I like the natural shorts. Where I'm at now is that I don't like how they look in the holder, and therefore, I no longer try to submit them for my collection and I don't buy them. That could change, but that's where I'm at now. I'm satisfied with my 7's - they're all full-sized and just about all of them look great to me. I've passed up on many 8's just because I thought they didn't look better than the associated 7 in my collection.
I've always believed that natural shorts are a true characteristic of the 75 Topps Mini's, unlike any other major Topps set. I respect the opinons of those that don't care for these cards, but most are legit and should seriously be considered for grading. The arguement that there are full size examples of these same cards is reasonable, and I have secured full size examples whenever possible for my sets. Perhaps a compromise is in order? PSA could create a variation? They have done this for other sets.
I've also been saving several Mini's that have variation within the same color combo's. Just in case variations are created down the road. I have to believe collectors of the Mini's have noticed that there are some very noticeable color variations within same color combo's. I collected the 68 Topps set and there are a great number of variations within that set. Some have to do with colors on the card (yellow letters and white letters). This could easily be said of the 75 Topps Mini's with two distinctly different color combo's for the same card. Blue/Green combo also shows up as more of a purple/green. This is not the only color combo variation. I'm not talking about faded and vivid color differences here. Clearly Topps used a different mixture of color or not enough mixture was going on during certain runs of the Mini's. Not sure if this is true for the 75 Topps Regular set? I don't really want variations added to the 75 Topps Mini's (except for maybe the natural shorts), but it's something I didn't want to ignore, just in case it happens (regarding the color combo differences).
How can PSA determine a card that is naturally short from a card that has been trimmed within the color variations that naturally short cards appear? I'm with MMD. Those cards not greater than 80mm (80.5mm) should be graded MC which would resolve the issue. Otherwise, any mini can be trimmed and slabbed right? Albeit a very educated assumption......we are assuming that only the red/yellows and green/yellows are naturally short right?
Thanks for the feedback. Yes the cards I'm referring to are the usual shorties (Pole, Hughes, Alou, Heidemann, etc). Did the regular size set have this issue to? Having handled a half dozen or so high grade vending sets over the years, I don't recall that they did. Edit to add - If they don't have the same issue, what's different about the mini cutting process vs the full size issue?
Topps may have targeted 80 mm (or the English measure equivalent) for all of their cards, but the evidence of the cards themselves suggests that there was an acceptable tolerance of around 1-2 mm on either side of 80 mm depending on the locations of the cards on the sheets. The information is in this thread if you want to read more about it. Start around page 7. Generally, only red/yellow and green/yellows were consistently cut short of 80 mm at the factory. However, if you go back a couple of dozen pages in this thread, you can read about a possible exception regarding the middle sheet shown on page 7 (i.e., the theory of the Mini cut card case for that sheet).
Again, I have no problems with people subbing legitimate short (or long) cards. I go back and forth on purchasing them. For now I steer away from the shorts because of the stigma surrounding them and because I think the full size cards look better in the holder. The other reason is that if I need to liquidate my collection, I can do it easily without having to worry about alienating buyers who don't like the natural shorts.
I'd like to address this comment directly:
How can PSA determine a card that is naturally short from a card that has been trimmed within the color variations that naturally short cards appear? I'm with MMD.
I think it's difficult as heck, and in some cases, impossible. I've cracked out, examined, and threw away many suspicious shorts from my collection. In all but one case, I could not determine which edge was the cut edge. I stared at those edges up and down under different magnifications and different lighting sources. I just couldn't tell. The trimmer was that good and was careful to make sure all edges had the same shading.
BTW, regarding detecting a natural cut versus a trim - the same difficulty holds true for Mini's that came out of the factory at let's say 80.5 mm but were cut down to 80.1 mm. Good luck detecting that one. It's not just the natural shorts we have to worry about.
Here's something interesting as well. I was at the Chantilly show Friday afternoon for about 6 hours. I looked at over 1,000 mini's in all kinds of condition. I would say 90+ percent of the red/yellows and green/yellows were naturally short. Short is/was the norm. Also of note is that out of all those Mini's, I found and bought a grand total of 20 that would grade 8 or better. It's slim pickings out there - nothing like a few years ago when nice, high grade commons were abundant at the shows (relatively speaking of course). I found a nice Rick Wise (red/yellow combo). Guess what it's size is......80.5 mm. The red/yellows (and green/yellows) can come long too.
I understand both sides and fall on the side of natural shorts for two reasons:
If several gigantic graders had not exploited the loophole, we would never have discussed this issue. We never did before
I own Topps Vault minis in single and strip form, including ironically Alou. The green/yellow, from Topps own proofs, are in fact 3 1/8", not 3 3/16 that we like to see and in fact, that is how Beckett listed them all along.
<< <i>I understand both sides and fall on the side of natural shorts for two reasons:
If several gigantic graders had not exploited the loophole, we would never have discussed this issue. We never did before
I own Topps Vault minis in single and strip form, including ironically Alou. The green/yellow, from Topps own proofs, are in fact 3 1/8", not 3 3/16 that we like to see and in fact, that is how Beckett listed them all along.
It is all about the exploit. >>
Jim raises an interesting point in that natural shorts were never discussed really in the past but how much of that is because people didn't realize or understand this aberration or whether we assumed (as evidenced by those cards graded before psa tightened ship) that it was an aberration that was not relegated to just those cards with red/yellow or green/yellow color combos is open to debate. I recall on the old mini thread that there was great resistance to these discoveries when they first came to light and I for one am very happy we've been able to evolve to this point with the knowledge we have gained as collectors.
I am in Nick's camp on natural shorts for two reasons: one because of market acceptibility and two, from a purely aesthetic standpoint, a full-sized (or very nearly so) mini card has much greater eye appeal to me. It's also why these affected cards should be that much tougher to find in high grade and command the premium they do among mini collectors.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Nearly all of the 700 (small sample) or so graded minis that I have measured in my collection are between 80.5 and 81 mm. Jim.....is your point that my green/yellows are possibly cut long?
Broke out the micrometer, as opposed to eyeballing a ruler.
Vault cards (green yellow, 4 samples) are all 3 5/32" Pack pulled cards are 3 3/16"
1/32" doesn't sound like much, but to someone with a sharp blade and some skill it is all the room in the world.
Indy - It is actually not that hard to tell the trimmed edges, but you need to magnify them. It is almost never on a side. It can be either top or bottom and was chosen to improve centering as well as corners. One edge will be cleaner than the other. Also, many times under bright light, an aftermarket edge will jump off the page because it will shine or reflect in a way that is just unnatural. Hard to explain, but after you get the hang of it, this is far the easiest way to tell, particularly on cards that are sized right, but used to be long.
By the way, I agree 110% that full sized cards should carry a significant premium. That said, the truth is that PSA has graded known anomolies in all kinds of issues all along. If you dig around you can find scans and threads on 1970s that have graded PSA 10 with that line across the top for example. Doesn't make it illegitimate, but I'm sure a line free example would carry a premium.
Think about Indy's sample for a second. If 90% of an item was printed one way, and the other 10% printed differently, which is the anomoly?
Ack - last post for the time being. The real reason I popped on this morning is that Peten13's set (8.85) is listed on ebay for 50k/bo. This will be an interesting sale to say the least.
On a very serious and personal note, if anyone is in the market for a high end set, please PM me first.
<< <i>By the way, I agree 110% that full sized cards should carry a significant premium. That said, the truth is that PSA has graded known anomolies in all kinds of issues all along. If you dig around you can find scans and threads on 1970s that have graded PSA 10 with that line across the top for example. Doesn't make it illegitimate, but I'm sure a line free example would carry a premium.
Think about Indy's sample for a second. If 90% of an item was printed one way, and the other 10% printed differently, which is the anomoly? >>
I would say the anomaly is more in comparison to the more standard sized color combos. The premium for these "shorter" cards is predicated on the realization just how tough it is to find a high grade mint example among that full-sized 10%!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
an aftermarket edge will jump off the page because it will shine or reflect in a way that is just unnatural
MD: Yep, I see it. I never noticed that before, and there is no hiding such an edge. You have a great eye. Thanks!
Edited to add: I spent too much time looking at the center and shading of the cut edge when I should have been looking at the side of the edge where it meets the face of the card, if that makes sense.
After a 30 year hiatus, I am going back through my collection of cards. I have a mini set that I have started to go through and have a few mint looking cards that I have sent into PSA. The first one I sent in was Steve Rogers given it looked perfect to me and it looks like it is a tough one to find in good shape. I was surprised when I got it back that it was a 9, but with a PD qualifier. It has some snow flaking in the black of the card, but did not think it was more than other '75s that I looked at that did not receive the qualifier. As I compare it to my other cards, the coloring looks like a brighter yellow on top and more of a red than orange on the bottom. I am now thinking that this may have cause the PD. In reality, the brighter colors look great. Look forward to collaborating as I look to improve my set. Here's a look at the Rogers card:
Its the snow. PSA has zero tolerance for it on minis and Rogers is the poster child for it. It is an easy card to get sharp and centered actually, but the low pop is all due to snow.
<< <i>Its the snow. PSA has zero tolerance for it on minis and Rogers is the poster child for it. It is an easy card to get sharp and centered actually, but the low pop is all due to snow. >>
Only 3 9s and many of the 8s are O/C in addition to the snow issues that Jim brings up. This card does not come up too often...is usually BINed at a relatively cheap price and bought quickly. Yet another tough card in this set.
Sharp Rogers! Agree with Jim, that card is plagued with PD, but that one, from the scan at least, looks pretty nice. I've seen no better in a straight 9 holder. Might be worth a return trip.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Believe it or not, that particular Rogers is beyond common. It is one of the "cut card case" versions that you see on ebay now and then. They are all the same. Awesome centering, sharp, scan pretty well, light snow and just short. The only way to get a natural short other than red/ green yellow.
I have a literal stack of them. I think they were in the pic i posted a ways back with the stacks of cards.
I dont mean to knock it. Its a beautiful card and i have been clear in my criticism of psa's hndling of light snow.
Comments
I picked up a set earlier today that was interesting as well. Was listed as having 40 psa graded HoFers with an average of 7, but it happened to include a PSA 9 Rice as well as PSA 8 Brett and Ryan, with no commons graded, so crossing my fingers on a find or two on those :-)
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[URL=http://s610.photobucket.com/user/jimduffett/media/IMG_0003-2.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s610.photobucket.com/user/jimduffett/media/IMG_0002-4.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s610.photobucket.com/user/jimduffett/media/IMG_0004-1.jpg.html]
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
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ebay id Duffs_Dugout
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Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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371GatorPSA9
EDIT: Checked my database and the following Gator 9s are deemed significantly short:
15612860
06471659
12291874
This cert may be the ONLY full-sized 9? (let's say 9ish)
21796616
who is this seller? Incredible that he was sitting on this treasure!
[URL=http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/MintMoondog/media/1975M_371_p9_12291874_zpsa962c7f6.jpg.html]
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[URL=http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/MintMoondog/media/1975M_371_P9_06471659_zps4b14c80e.jpg.html]
I cant remember if I destroyed one pop was 5 now 4....
And of course, there is one GREAT GATOR!
[URL=http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/MintMoondog/media/1975M_371_p10_18859584_zpscdc150e6.jpg.html]
<< <i>Diamond in the rough! Seller could have more than doubled his money had it been in an open auction. Congrats Henry! >>
Thanks MM, the seller actually read my posts
The 1/1 PSA 10 sold a couple times just north of 1000.00. This is where valuation becomes very tricky. So if you surmise that the 9 could sell for 1K then what would/should the 1/1 psa10 sell for? Also, the Brett 9 has been at around 1K so how can one reconcile the two prices?
To be honest, there has been a huge amount of discussion regarding valuation and prices here and on the other forums. I have developed my own valuation scheme and bid accordingly but I am not entirely sure I am correct.
I’ve recently opened 21 packs of 1975 Topps minis and I'm thinking of building a nice raw '75 mini set. Wondering if anyone here might have a nice large starter set lot that you'd be interested in selling. I'm looking for pack fresh cards that just didn't make the cut to submit to PSA. I’m not as concerned about centering as most people are.
If anyone has a good lot that I can start with, please PM me. I really don’t want to go the eBay route as I know I’ll just get junk that way.
Thanks!!
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
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<< <i>what do you think caused that yellow cast seemingly raining down on him? >>
One of the Angels from above him
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
Gates Brown Dies
<< <i>Having just discussed the gator on this thread: RIP
Gates Brown Dies >>
Oh crap!! Never saw him play in person, but was a mainstay Tiger of the early 70s.
<< <i>I picked up a set earlier today that was interesting as well. Was listed as having 40 psa graded HoFers with an average of 7, but it happened to include a PSA 9 Rice as well as PSA 8 Brett and Ryan, with no commons graded, so crossing my fingers on a find or two on those :-) >>
Jim: How did this set turn out to be? My snipe was set pretty high on that set, but not enough to go off... just wondered if it was any good? Thanks.
Bosox1976
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Bosox1976
I picked up a few nice cards but lost most of the auctions anyone else pick some up?
<< <i>Some really nice 9s just went through the mill on ebay. Looks like "The Hill Collection" strikes again.
I picked up a few nice cards but lost most of the auctions anyone else pick some up? >>
I picked up Soderholm, Singer and 1955 MVP cards for a shade over $100 total. Was underbidder on the Zisk card to a person who shall remain nameless.
Was going to go after a few more but bypassed on cards with tilts.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Wonder who's set that was. There were some pretty nice cards there, particularly the Gullett, which I expected to go for more.
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I also wonder whose set this was, I agree there were many nice 9s
Unfortunately, a few of the cards I did need were unnaturally short...
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Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Can someone give an executive summary on the natural vs unnatural shorts? I have some cards straight from wax and the usual shorties are much shorter than the correct size but I know they are not trimmed as they have a solid provenance. So they are natural shorts but probably not in the way being referred to in the posts above. >>
There is some disagreement among experts here. First, we are only talking about the cards that are red/yellow green/yellow as they are the only legitimate cards that will sometimes come up short in packs. As indy demonstrated with sheet jpgs., this was based on sheet placement.
One view, is that we can allow for cards in that particular color variation to come up short and there is more of a "grey" area allowed.
I am of a dissenting opinion.
1. The people who say this often have a "self-interested" motive. We all are, because anyone who has accumulated raw minis have beautiful examples of these variations that are just short.
2. The definition of a PSA 10 or PSA 9 are near perfect cards. How can we justify a "short" PSA9 Alou which is 1/16 shorter (glaring) next to a full-sized PSA9? The full-sized card IS the intended size. My view is that if PSA wants to encapsulate these cards then they should put a MC designation because indeed these cards are miscut.
3. If you find short cards (that aren't cut) it is almost certain that these cards were from the years before PSA tightened their scrutiny. It is almost impossible to get short cards encapsulated today.
Some members keep sending in short cards anyway hoping to slip one through. I find this behavior wrong for the hobby. But I understand it from the standpoint that there is disagreement on whether there is such a thing as a natural short card. I just don't understand the logic to be honest. There are natural O/C, and natural printing defects like massive fish eyes - should we ignore them because they are "natural?" A 90/10 centering occurred naturally did it not? It is quite noticeable. What then is the logic of saying a card that virtually swims in the case is just as strong as a card that fills the case?
Sorry for the rant.
Having said that, of course, I have a self-interest because I have a huge accumulation of full-sized minis and destroyed all the short cards (cut or natural) in my collection.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
With that said, I go back and forth over whether I like the natural shorts. Where I'm at now is that I don't like how they look in the holder, and therefore, I no longer try to submit them for my collection and I don't buy them. That could change, but that's where I'm at now. I'm satisfied with my 7's - they're all full-sized and just about all of them look great to me. I've passed up on many 8's just because I thought they didn't look better than the associated 7 in my collection.
I've also been saving several Mini's that have variation within the same color combo's. Just in case variations are created down the road. I have to believe collectors of the Mini's have noticed that there are some very noticeable color variations within same color combo's. I collected the 68 Topps set and there are a great number of variations within that set. Some have to do with colors on the card (yellow letters and white letters). This could easily be said of the 75 Topps Mini's with two distinctly different color combo's for the same card. Blue/Green combo also shows up as more of a purple/green. This is not the only color combo variation. I'm not talking about faded and vivid color differences here. Clearly Topps used a different mixture of color or not enough mixture was going on during certain runs of the Mini's. Not sure if this is true for the 75 Topps Regular set? I don't really want variations added to the 75 Topps Mini's (except for maybe the natural shorts), but it's something I didn't want to ignore, just in case it happens (regarding the color combo differences).
Again, I have no problems with people subbing legitimate short (or long) cards. I go back and forth on purchasing them. For now I steer away from the shorts because of the stigma surrounding them and because I think the full size cards look better in the holder. The other reason is that if I need to liquidate my collection, I can do it easily without having to worry about alienating buyers who don't like the natural shorts.
I'd like to address this comment directly:
How can PSA determine a card that is naturally short from a card that has been trimmed within the color variations that naturally short cards appear? I'm with MMD.
I think it's difficult as heck, and in some cases, impossible. I've cracked out, examined, and threw away many suspicious shorts from my collection. In all but one case, I could not determine which edge was the cut edge. I stared at those edges up and down under different magnifications and different lighting sources. I just couldn't tell. The trimmer was that good and was careful to make sure all edges had the same shading.
BTW, regarding detecting a natural cut versus a trim - the same difficulty holds true for Mini's that came out of the factory at let's say 80.5 mm but were cut down to 80.1 mm. Good luck detecting that one. It's not just the natural shorts we have to worry about.
Here's something interesting as well. I was at the Chantilly show Friday afternoon for about 6 hours. I looked at over 1,000 mini's in all kinds of condition. I would say 90+ percent of the red/yellows and green/yellows were naturally short. Short is/was the norm. Also of note is that out of all those Mini's, I found and bought a grand total of 20 that would grade 8 or better. It's slim pickings out there - nothing like a few years ago when nice, high grade commons were abundant at the shows (relatively speaking of course). I found a nice Rick Wise (red/yellow combo). Guess what it's size is......80.5 mm. The red/yellows (and green/yellows) can come long too.
If several gigantic graders had not exploited the loophole, we would never have discussed this issue. We never did before
I own Topps Vault minis in single and strip form, including ironically Alou. The green/yellow, from Topps own proofs, are in fact 3 1/8", not 3 3/16 that we like to see and in fact, that is how Beckett listed them all along.
It is all about the exploit.
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<< <i>I understand both sides and fall on the side of natural shorts for two reasons:
If several gigantic graders had not exploited the loophole, we would never have discussed this issue. We never did before
I own Topps Vault minis in single and strip form, including ironically Alou. The green/yellow, from Topps own proofs, are in fact 3 1/8", not 3 3/16 that we like to see and in fact, that is how Beckett listed them all along.
It is all about the exploit. >>
Jim raises an interesting point in that natural shorts were never discussed really in the past but how much of that is because people didn't realize or understand this aberration or whether we assumed (as evidenced by those cards graded before psa tightened ship) that it was an aberration that was not relegated to just those cards with red/yellow or green/yellow color combos is open to debate. I recall on the old mini thread that there was great resistance to these discoveries when they first came to light and I for one am very happy we've been able to evolve to this point with the knowledge we have gained as collectors.
I am in Nick's camp on natural shorts for two reasons: one because of market acceptibility and two, from a purely aesthetic standpoint, a full-sized (or very nearly so) mini card has much greater eye appeal to me. It's also why these affected cards should be that much tougher to find in high grade and command the premium they do among mini collectors.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
3 1/8 inches is 79.375 mm
3 3/16 inches is 80.963 mm
Nearly all of the 700 (small sample) or so graded minis that I have measured in my collection are between 80.5 and 81 mm. Jim.....is your point that my green/yellows are possibly cut long?
Vault cards (green yellow, 4 samples) are all 3 5/32"
Pack pulled cards are 3 3/16"
1/32" doesn't sound like much, but to someone with a sharp blade and some skill it is all the room in the world.
Indy - It is actually not that hard to tell the trimmed edges, but you need to magnify them. It is almost never on a side. It can be either top or bottom and was chosen to improve centering as well as corners. One edge will be cleaner than the other. Also, many times under bright light, an aftermarket edge will jump off the page because it will shine or reflect in a way that is just unnatural. Hard to explain, but after you get the hang of it, this is far the easiest way to tell, particularly on cards that are sized right, but used to be long.
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Think about Indy's sample for a second. If 90% of an item was printed one way, and the other 10% printed differently, which is the anomoly?
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On a very serious and personal note, if anyone is in the market for a high end set, please PM me first.
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<< <i>By the way, I agree 110% that full sized cards should carry a significant premium. That said, the truth is that PSA has graded known anomolies in all kinds of issues all along. If you dig around you can find scans and threads on 1970s that have graded PSA 10 with that line across the top for example. Doesn't make it illegitimate, but I'm sure a line free example would carry a premium.
Think about Indy's sample for a second. If 90% of an item was printed one way, and the other 10% printed differently, which is the anomoly? >>
I would say the anomaly is more in comparison to the more standard sized color combos. The premium for these "shorter" cards is predicated on the realization just how tough it is to find a high grade mint example among that full-sized 10%!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
MD: Yep, I see it. I never noticed that before, and there is no hiding such an edge. You have a great eye. Thanks!
Edited to add: I spent too much time looking at the center and shading of the cut edge when I should have been looking at the side of the edge where it meets the face of the card, if that makes sense.
After a 30 year hiatus, I am going back through my collection of cards. I have a mini set that I have started to go through and have a few mint looking cards that I have sent into PSA. The first one I sent in was Steve Rogers given it looked perfect to me and it looks like it is a tough one to find in good shape. I was surprised when I got it back that it was a 9, but with a PD qualifier. It has some snow flaking in the black of the card, but did not think it was more than other '75s that I looked at that did not receive the qualifier. As I compare it to my other cards, the coloring looks like a brighter yellow on top and more of a red than orange on the bottom. I am now thinking that this may have cause the PD. In reality, the brighter colors look great. Look forward to collaborating as I look to improve my set. Here's a look at the Rogers card:
[URL=http://s862.photobucket.com/user/rodneycline/media/Doc-Oct2120139-27AM_zpsabbdc13f.jpg.html]
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<< <i>Its the snow. PSA has zero tolerance for it on minis and Rogers is the poster child for it. It is an easy card to get sharp and centered actually, but the low pop is all due to snow. >>
Only 3 9s and many of the 8s are O/C in addition to the snow issues that Jim brings up. This card does not come up too often...is usually BINed at a relatively cheap price and bought quickly. Yet another tough card in this set.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I have a literal stack of them. I think they were in the pic i posted a ways back with the stacks of cards.
I dont mean to knock it. Its a beautiful card and i have been clear in my criticism of psa's hndling of light snow.
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