<< <i>I will always wonder what would have happened if the Mint had just issued the pucks as planned and NOT said anything about the mintage quantities....bullion would have been sold as bullion (maybe a tad higher because of their uniqueness) and most would have made their way to consumers. Not much hoopla....kinda cool pucks.
Eventually, after the fact, the word would have gotten out that there were no more to be had. This would have THEN started the speculation and the market would slowly evolve. This thread probably would have 75 posts at that point....instead of 2000 BEFORE they are available. >>
Yes, this is exactly what the Mint should have done. I've been saying this all along. They should not have announced mintages of the bullion coins. That was a huge mistake that started the snowball rolling. If they had not announced mintages, people who wanted to collect these (ie, not flippers) would have had a better shot at acquiring them.
<< <i>One other thing that is abundantly clear...the numismatic versions will be perhaps the biggest no-brainer to attempt to acquire of any modern offering, even counting the 20th anniv. AGE sets.
I can't imaging the frenzy when they go on sale.
What do you all think that they'll bring on the secondary market after their immediate sell-out?? >>
Hopefully the Mint will realize what a winner they have an price them accordingly. If the bullion versions are selling for $2000/set, then the Mint should set their price at $2200, assuming a 10% premium for the numismatic value/smaller mintage. There is no reason for the Mint to let the lucky few who were able to buy directly from the Mint to make all the money. >>
Are you serious??
The Mint is not in the business of picking a winner to reap massive profits. If that were the case, simply mint a hundred or less of some nice-looking coin and charge tens of thousand for each.
One of THE main reasons given by The Mint for NOT minting 2009 ASE proofs was specifically to not create a rarity w/no fair distribution process. What a mistake! They should have realized what a winner that they had, made it the key by a large margin and sold each for thousands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>I want to see the hockey pucks sold in vending machines at the Mint.... >>
I would like to see the collector edition pucks sold at its National Park site only. And enforce the one per household there. That would make collecting an entire set very challenging.
Are participating APs buying their initial allocation on one day and their second allocation (from the pool of non-participating APs) on another day? Does this mean they are paying different prices to the Mint for each allocation? If that's the case, won't they be selling each allocation at a different price as well?
<< <i>Are participating APs buying their initial allocation on one day and their second allocation (from the pool of non-participating APs) on another day? Does this mean they are paying different prices to the Mint for each allocation? If that's the case, won't they be selling each allocation at a different price as well? >>
<< <i>Are participating APs buying their initial allocation on one day and their second allocation (from the pool of non-participating APs) on another day? Does this mean they are paying different prices to the Mint for each allocation? If that's the case, won't they be selling each allocation at a different price as well? >>
I think we know too much about the process these days and that is why some of us are so unblissful.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
I recall in a prior post that someone said something about 7 APs with confirmed buys. Who are the two additional (in addition to the five named already)?
<< <i>I recall in a prior post that someone said something about 7 APs with confirmed buys. Who are the two additional (in addition to the five named already)? >>
Dillon Gage is one. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Anyone willing to make a guess of what the Mint's mark-up will be when they start selling the "collectors" version? My guess....30 - 40% mark up over spot.
( % is based on past & existing mint item mark-ups)
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>Anyone willing to make a guess of what the Mint's mark-up will be when they start selling the "collectors" version? My guess....30 - 40% mark up over spot.
( % is based on past & existing mint item mark-ups) >>
<< <i>I recall in a prior post that someone said something about 7 APs with confirmed buys. Who are the two additional (in addition to the five named already)? >>
Raufus, here is the list from page 88
"The Mint News Blog said the AP's that bought the coins were Jack Hunt, Coins 'N Things, MTB, Fidlitrade and of course Ampex.
A-mark and Dillion continue to have the evaluating message on their websites."
<< <i>As to The Mint markup on the numismatic versions, I say that it will be the same percentage as seen with the prior issues of silver unc ASE's. >>
If you're correct...we can expect a 50 - 60%+ premium over spot...APMEX price doesn't look so bad now.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>Remember, the collector version will be a different finish on the surface of the coins
also will be boxed appropriately and not just loose....
much better quality >>
Exactly, unc W & proof issues have a consistent, higher markup over spot than do bullion issues for just these reasons. Comparing the APMEX billion gouge price to that which The Mint charges for individually packaged, individually sold retail numismatic issues is an apples to oranges comparison.
<< <i>Remember, the collector version will be a different finish on the surface of the coins
also will be boxed appropriately and not just loose....
much better quality >>
and best of all....it will have a Mint mark. >>
I sure like that W mint mark on my 08 w unc $50 buffs - it seems to do wonders for them relative to the billion issue buffs!!!! >>
Yup..but that was a small mintage of under 15k ... on the other hand you can't brag about your 2006 & 7 or even 10, which can be had at melt or slightly over melt.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>As to The Mint markup on the numismatic versions, I say that it will be the same percentage as seen with the prior issues of silver unc ASE's. >>
If you're correct...we can expect a 50 - 60%+ premium over spot...APMEX price doesn't look so bad now. >>
I'd like to see a breakdown of the price before saying 50% - 60% premium over spot "doesn't look so bad"
if that were the case, then all ASE bullion selling now and in the past would have been at a loss because it wasn't sold even close to 50% - 60% over spot.
<< <i>Just wait until we discover that some of them have missing edge lettering... >>
Or doubled. Or upside down. Or?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Well, not in any way back tracking, but I did say that my opinions were not taking into consideration the contractual end of this. I would not attempt to address that, I am not qualified. I do know that contracts can most definitely be challenged when unusual circumstances apply. I always look at things from what I perceive to be a common sense point of view. Giving indications of 100K mintage, then producing 33K or whatever, is a game changer from a marketplace perspective. Expecting anyone, including those that will be lucky enough to obtain a set at 10% over to then sell them for less than what the market will allow is unrealistic. As a side note here, to address another post, I have no alterior motive and was not "posturing" in any way with my previous post. There is no "grand scheme" or wealth of information being withheld by us or any of the AP's that I am aware of... we are all perplexed by the situation and very uncertain about how to proceed. >>
To me, this sounds like a dealer talking. There is absolutely no reason why these are being "scalped" by APMEX other than trying to maximize PROFITS in an environment totally controlled by APMEX by being granted "distributorship" from the US Government.
<< <i>In the case of these pucks the contract is THE issue. The ONLY reason that the APs are exclusively selling them is because of their contract. It is THE issue. What should change is that these should be sold directly by The Mint. Any attempt to change the AP contract to permit them to gouge totally defeats the point of having the AP program in the first place.
If these were sold via the usual Mint channel, i.e. directly to the public, everyone would have a fair shot at them at a reasonable issue price and there would be no issue even if there was an immedite, big secondary markup as with the 20th anniv. AGE set, etc >>
I totally agree. If everybody had a "fair" chance at obtaining these at spot plus the US Mints markup then everybody would have an equal chance at enjoying profits determined by the Market, NOT A SELECT GROUP of AP's. When companies group together and determine what the price will be, it's called Price Fixing! Hopefully, these tactics will not spill over into the American Eagle Bullion coin program by Coin Dealers becoming AP's in the future wishing to "maximize their profits".
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Being that the APs must sell the 2010 per the auth. legislation, if the APs can't get this done, then it would be best to hold off until 2011 and get a legislative fix so that The Mint can sell them direct. This would be easy. >>
No kidding! The US Mint had nearly the entire year and could only produce 33,000 or each piece. Now, the piece specifications changes yet again so will next year be the same thing?
These pieces have no business being sold (and ultimately controlled) by the AP's as PBGS is completely capable of handling the orders. Especialy if HH limits are imposed.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Which APS are selling these?..................................Just kidding >>
Wouldn't you think the AP's are doing some cherry-picking to keep the best ones for friends and family, before selling the duds to the public? >>
Only those that have the ability to submit to PCGS or the other TPG's. Typically, bulk bullion dealers such as Prudential Securities Inc. New York City or Fidelitrade Inc, Wilmington Del or Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt Germany have no way to submit bullion silver for grading and then, as pointed out, have the ability to sell on a piece by piece basis. APMEX on the other hand does and utilizes that ability to serve the "coin collecting market" not the "Bullion Investing Market".
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Which APS are selling these?..................................Just kidding >>
Wouldn't you think the AP's are doing some cherry-picking to keep the best ones for friends and family, before selling the duds to the public? >>
Only those that have the ability to submit to PCGS or the other TPG's. Typically, bulk bullion dealers such as Prudential Securities Inc. New York City or Fidelitrade Inc, Wilmington Del or Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt Germany have no way to submit bullion silver for grading and then, as pointed out, have the ability to sell on a piece by piece basis. APMEX on the other hand does and utilizes that ability to serve the "coin collecting market" not the "Bullion Investing Market". >>
I'm under the impression that the APs, now, have to sell them all raw.
But who checks the books as to whom they sell to? Why no sell to cousin Ernie and buy back & sell the "second time around". Sell to a secondary market, even if made up, and establish market by "repurchasing" them. Or some such....
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>OK, I'm ready for something to happen on these puppies today. BRING IT! >>
Don't hold your breath....Most are waiting until Jan. 3rd and Apmex said info "late" this week
"We anticipate we will able to provide additional information late next week."
I would assume their "info" will be .... sets for sale Jan. 3rd and original orders would be honored at one set per and at a reduced price....week after Xmas to make your decision re: previous orders and new orders accepted Jan.3rd
Comments
the USM can change direction at any time - any time.........
look at the 2001 Buffalo C&C set for instance - no order limits - took orders - after which revised all orders down to 20 sets PER HH......
this is where it all started boys and girls.......
<< <i>Can't wait to see the three-inch Elvis sticker on the Tennessee ATB.........
Might just replace the velvet portrait hanging up in the double wide.
<< <i>An Airplane crashes on the US - Canadian border. On what side are the survivors buried on? >>
Depends on whether they know french or not.
<< <i>I will always wonder what would have happened if the Mint had just issued the pucks as planned and NOT said anything about the mintage quantities....bullion would have been sold as bullion (maybe a tad higher because of their uniqueness) and most would have made their way to consumers. Not much hoopla....kinda cool pucks.
Eventually, after the fact, the word would have gotten out that there were no more to be had. This would have THEN started the speculation and the market would slowly evolve. This thread probably would have 75 posts at that point....instead of 2000 BEFORE they are available. >>
Yes, this is exactly what the Mint should have done. I've been saying this all along. They should not have announced mintages of the bullion coins. That was a huge mistake that started the snowball rolling. If they had not announced mintages, people who wanted to collect these (ie, not flippers) would have had a better shot at acquiring them.
<< <i>An Airplane crashes on the US - Canadian border. On what side are the survivors buried on? >>
It would be a bad thing if the survivors are buried.....
<< <i>An Airplane crashes on the US - Canadian border. On what side are the survivors buried on? >>
If it was full of gov't officials on a taxpayer paid junket, I don't care what side, as long as they were buried deep...
<< <i>
<< <i>An Airplane crashes on the US - Canadian border. On what side are the survivors buried on? >>
It would be a bad thing if the survivors are buried..... >>
Not if they are French.
Just kidding of course.
<< <i>
<< <i>One other thing that is abundantly clear...the numismatic versions will be perhaps the biggest no-brainer to attempt to acquire of any modern offering, even counting the 20th anniv. AGE sets.
I can't imaging the frenzy when they go on sale.
What do you all think that they'll bring on the secondary market after their immediate sell-out?? >>
Hopefully the Mint will realize what a winner they have an price them accordingly. If the bullion versions are selling for $2000/set, then the Mint should set their price at $2200, assuming a 10% premium for the numismatic value/smaller mintage. There is no reason for the Mint to let the lucky few who were able to buy directly from the Mint to make all the money. >>
Are you serious??
The Mint is not in the business of picking a winner to reap massive profits. If that were the case, simply mint a hundred or less of some nice-looking coin and charge tens of thousand for each.
One of THE main reasons given by The Mint for NOT minting 2009 ASE proofs was specifically to not create a rarity w/no fair distribution process. What a mistake! They should have realized what a winner that they had, made it the key by a large margin and sold each for thousands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>I want to see the hockey pucks sold in vending machines at the Mint.... >>
I would like to see the collector edition pucks sold at its National Park site only. And enforce the one per household there. That would make collecting an entire set very challenging.
<< <i>
<< <i>An Airplane crashes on the US - Canadian border. On what side are the survivors buried on? >>
If it was full of gov't officials on a taxpayer paid junket, I don't care what side, as long as they were buried deep... >>
US Mint officials to be exact, trying to undue the mess they created.
<< <i>Are participating APs buying their initial allocation on one day and their second allocation (from the pool of non-participating APs) on another day? Does this mean they are paying different prices to the Mint for each allocation? If that's the case, won't they be selling each allocation at a different price as well? >>
<< <i>Are you serious?? >>
<< <i>Are participating APs buying their initial allocation on one day and their second allocation (from the pool of non-participating APs) on another day? Does this mean they are paying different prices to the Mint for each allocation? If that's the case, won't they be selling each allocation at a different price as well? >>
I think we know too much about the process these days and that is why some of us are so unblissful.
this is a problem?
(gee.... a monster has been created?)
<< <i>
<< <i>Are you serious?? >>
I was wondering :-)
you are correct.......
<< <i>I recall in a prior post that someone said something about 7 APs with confirmed buys. Who are the two additional (in addition to the five named already)? >>
Dillon Gage is one.
TD
My guess....30 - 40% mark up over spot.
( % is based on past & existing mint item mark-ups)
<< <i>Anyone willing to make a guess of what the Mint's mark-up will be when they start selling the "collectors" version?
My guess....30 - 40% mark up over spot.
( % is based on past & existing mint item mark-ups) >>
i really think that is pretty close.
<< <i>I recall in a prior post that someone said something about 7 APs with confirmed buys. Who are the two additional (in addition to the five named already)? >>
Raufus, here is the list from page 88
"The Mint News Blog said the AP's that bought the coins were Jack Hunt, Coins 'N Things, MTB, Fidlitrade and of course Ampex.
A-mark and Dillion continue to have the evaluating message on their websites."
As to The Mint markup on the numismatic versions, I say that it will be the same percentage as seen with the prior issues of silver unc ASE's.
I will be very interesting to see what a set of the numismatic version will be bringing on Ebay following the instant sell-out.
<< <i>As to The Mint markup on the numismatic versions, I say that it will be the same percentage as seen with the prior issues of silver unc ASE's. >>
If you're correct...we can expect a 50 - 60%+ premium over spot...APMEX price doesn't look so bad now.
also will be boxed appropriately and not just loose....
much better quality
<< <i>If you're correct...we can expect a 50 - 60%+ premium over spot...APMEX price doesn't look so bad now. >>
I'd guess you are just about right.
<< <i>Remember, the collector version will be a different finish on the surface of the coins
also will be boxed appropriately and not just loose....
much better quality >>
and best of all....it will have a Mint mark.
<< <i>Remember, the collector version will be a different finish on the surface of the coins
also will be boxed appropriately and not just loose....
much better quality >>
Exactly, unc W & proof issues have a consistent, higher markup over spot than do bullion issues for just these reasons. Comparing the APMEX billion gouge price to that which The Mint charges for individually packaged, individually sold retail numismatic issues is an apples to oranges comparison.
<< <i>
<< <i>Remember, the collector version will be a different finish on the surface of the coins
also will be boxed appropriately and not just loose....
much better quality >>
and best of all....it will have a Mint mark.
I sure like that W mint mark on my 08 w unc $50 buffs - it seems to do wonders for them relative to the billion issue buffs!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Remember, the collector version will be a different finish on the surface of the coins
also will be boxed appropriately and not just loose....
much better quality >>
and best of all....it will have a Mint mark.
I sure like that W mint mark on my 08 w unc $50 buffs - it seems to do wonders for them relative to the billion issue buffs!!!! >>
Yup..but that was a small mintage of under 15k ... on the other hand you can't brag about your 2006 & 7 or even 10, which can be had at melt or slightly over melt.
Jack Hunt Coin Broker is assessing the guidlines the United States Mint
has established for the sale and distribution of these coins.
PLEASE DO NOT CALL - OUR POLICY WILL BE POSTED HERE WHEN IT COMES AVAILABLE.
This is on the Jack Hunt site.
<< <i>
<< <i>As to The Mint markup on the numismatic versions, I say that it will be the same percentage as seen with the prior issues of silver unc ASE's. >>
If you're correct...we can expect a 50 - 60%+ premium over spot...APMEX price doesn't look so bad now. >>
I'd like to see a breakdown of the price before saying 50% - 60% premium over spot "doesn't look so bad"
if that were the case, then all ASE bullion selling now and in the past would have been at a loss because it wasn't sold even close to 50% - 60% over spot.
<< <i>Just wait until we discover that some of them have missing edge lettering... >>
Or doubled.
Or upside down.
Or?
<< <i>Well, not in any way back tracking, but I did say that my opinions were not taking into consideration the contractual end of this. I would not attempt to address that, I am not qualified. I do know that contracts can most definitely be challenged when unusual circumstances apply. I always look at things from what I perceive to be a common sense point of view. Giving indications of 100K mintage, then producing 33K or whatever, is a game changer from a marketplace perspective. Expecting anyone, including those that will be lucky enough to obtain a set at 10% over to then sell them for less than what the market will allow is unrealistic. As a side note here, to address another post, I have no alterior motive and was not "posturing" in any way with my previous post. There is no "grand scheme" or wealth of information being withheld by us or any of the AP's that I am aware of... we are all perplexed by the situation and very uncertain about how to proceed. >>
To me, this sounds like a dealer talking. There is absolutely no reason why these are being "scalped" by APMEX other than trying to maximize PROFITS in an environment totally controlled by APMEX by being granted "distributorship" from the US Government.
<< <i>In the case of these pucks the contract is THE issue. The ONLY reason that the APs are exclusively selling them is because of their contract. It is THE issue. What should change is that these should be sold directly by The Mint. Any attempt to change the AP contract to permit them to gouge totally defeats the point of having the AP program in the first place.
If these were sold via the usual Mint channel, i.e. directly to the public, everyone would have a fair shot at them at a reasonable issue price and there would be no issue even if there was an immedite, big secondary markup as with the 20th anniv. AGE set, etc >>
I totally agree. If everybody had a "fair" chance at obtaining these at spot plus the US Mints markup then everybody would have an equal chance at enjoying profits determined by the Market, NOT A SELECT GROUP of AP's. When companies group together and determine what the price will be, it's called Price Fixing! Hopefully, these tactics will not spill over into the American Eagle Bullion coin program by Coin Dealers becoming AP's in the future wishing to "maximize their profits".
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Being that the APs must sell the 2010 per the auth. legislation, if the APs can't get this done, then it would be best to hold off until 2011 and get a legislative fix so that The Mint can sell them direct. This would be easy. >>
No kidding! The US Mint had nearly the entire year and could only produce 33,000 or each piece. Now, the piece specifications changes yet again so will next year be the same thing?
These pieces have no business being sold (and ultimately controlled) by the AP's as PBGS is completely capable of handling the orders. Especialy if HH limits are imposed.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>Which APS are selling these?..................................Just kidding
Wouldn't you think the AP's are doing some cherry-picking
to keep the best ones for friends and family, before selling
the duds to the public? >>
Only those that have the ability to submit to PCGS or the other TPG's. Typically, bulk bullion dealers such as Prudential Securities Inc. New York City or Fidelitrade Inc, Wilmington Del or Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt Germany have no way to submit bullion silver for grading and then, as pointed out, have the ability to sell on a piece by piece basis.
APMEX on the other hand does and utilizes that ability to serve the "coin collecting market" not the "Bullion Investing Market".
The name is LEE!
<< <i>An Airplane crashes on the US - Canadian border. On what side are the survivors buried on? >>
Survivors do not get buried. Dead People do.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Which APS are selling these?..................................Just kidding
Wouldn't you think the AP's are doing some cherry-picking
to keep the best ones for friends and family, before selling
the duds to the public? >>
Only those that have the ability to submit to PCGS or the other TPG's. Typically, bulk bullion dealers such as Prudential Securities Inc. New York City or Fidelitrade Inc, Wilmington Del or Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt Germany have no way to submit bullion silver for grading and then, as pointed out, have the ability to sell on a piece by piece basis.
APMEX on the other hand does and utilizes that ability to serve the "coin collecting market" not the "Bullion Investing Market". >>
I'm under the impression that the APs, now, have to sell them all raw.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>
<< <i>An Airplane crashes on the US - Canadian border. On what side are the survivors buried on? >>
Survivors do not get buried. Dead People do. >>
How true & kudos to you for being observant ...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>An Airplane crashes on the US - Canadian border. On what side are the survivors buried on? >>
Survivors do not get buried. Dead People do. >>
How true & kudos to you for being observant ...
Kinda said that 40 or so posts ago
<< <i>OK, I'm ready for something to happen on these puppies today. BRING IT! >>
Don't hold your breath....Most are waiting until Jan. 3rd and Apmex said info "late" this week
"We anticipate we will able to provide additional information late next week."
I would assume their "info" will be .... sets for sale Jan. 3rd and original orders would be honored at one set per and at a reduced price....week after Xmas to make your decision re: previous orders and new orders accepted Jan.3rd
Just my opinion
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>An Airplane crashes on the US - Canadian border. On what side are the survivors buried on? >>
Survivors do not get buried. Dead People do. >>
How true & kudos to you for being observant ...
Kinda said that 40 or so posts ago
OK, C'mon, that's from 4th grade,,,but while we wait for the
puppies...What do you answer that's not a question?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>An Airplane crashes on the US - Canadian border. On what side are the survivors buried on? >>
Survivors do not get buried. Dead People do. >>
How true & kudos to you for being observant ...
Kinda said that 40 or so posts ago
OK, C'mon, that's from 4th grade,,,but while we wait for the
puppies...What do you answer that's not a question?
Telephone???
Door Bell???
Email????