<< <i>The Mint will scream, but what can they do? >>
Dump them as an AP, that's what the mint can do. Then they lose their privileged status as an AGE and ASE wholesaler - surely a much bigger and more important part of their business than a micro-allotment of pucks. There is nothing nefarious going on, so all conspiracy buffs can take a rest. The simple fact is that all but one or two of the APs were strictly wholesalers and had no retail arms before this - it takes time to set up. Couple this with the fact that we are in the holiday season when typically very little new development gets done (speaking from experience of 25 years in software), and you have your delay. Lastly, as others have stated, they are all probably waiting until after the final distribution of the remainder on the 20th so they only have to send the Brinks truck once.
It's Friday - have a >>
Way ahead of you - how else could I have come up my conspiracy theory!
Ebay question, i noticed many pre-sales for sets of these coins, how does ebay charge and refund when these sales do not go thru, say for the most likely reason the seller does not get the coins. Does Ebay charge your account as soon as a buyer purchases your pre-sale item? I would think the flippers that have pre-sold a lot of these sets are going to have a nervous Christmas wondering when/if they will get the coins they have sold.
<< <i><< The new Coins n Things (not the Canadian imposter!) website now has am image of the 5 pucks and a note that they will be accepting orders beginning Jan 3. http://atb.cntofma.com/ >> Maybe the reasons for the delayed sale date are: 1) The few AP's that are retail selling do not want the extra workload during the holiday week between Christmas and New Years, and/or 2) They want to push their profits from the sale of ATB's into a new calendar year thus delaying increased tax liabilities for another year. >>
In addition to the possibilities above...
As I understand it, they do/did not have a web site. They need some time to have it developed.
They are launching the site the same day the Coins go on sale. >>
Now if that does not have the potential to get screwed up....
<< <i>Ebay question, i noticed many pre-sales for sets of these coins, how does ebay charge and refund when these sales do not go thru, say for the most likely reason the seller does not get the coins. Does Ebay charge your account as soon as a buyer purchases your pre-sale item? I would think the flippers that have pre-sold a lot of these sets are going to have a nervous Christmas wondering when/if they will get the coins they have sold.
Most of the purchasing these days when using ebay is through Paypal. If you paid a seller for one of these with paypal, and then they cannot get the coin/s, they'd have to open a dispute with the buyer on ebay and ultimately refund using paypal. It's a pretty easy process.
Yep, the presale flippers will probably have a few problems. But a lot of them probably already have strategies in place to get multiple sets, as the mint often has household limits.
Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
<< <i>Ebay question, i noticed many pre-sales for sets of these coins, how does ebay charge and refund when these sales do not go thru, say for the most likely reason the seller does not get the coins. Does Ebay charge your account as soon as a buyer purchases your pre-sale item? I would think the flippers that have pre-sold a lot of these sets are going to have a nervous Christmas wondering when/if they will get the coins they have sold.
Ebay does not charge an account...it's up to the buyer to make payment, even if it's a BIN. I would suspect that most buyers have paid for the item and would have to file a dispute if the seller does not voluntarily refund the $$. 30 days max for future delivery on presale items is allowed by eBay. All of the pre sellers, and I can't shed any tears for them, will have coal stuffed in their stockings.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>Ebay question, i noticed many pre-sales for sets of these coins, how does ebay charge and refund when these sales do not go thru, say for the most likely reason the seller does not get the coins. Does Ebay charge your account as soon as a buyer purchases your pre-sale item? I would think the flippers that have pre-sold a lot of these sets are going to have a nervous Christmas wondering when/if they will get the coins they have sold.
Needless to say, i did not word my question very well. I have never sold or bought a presale on ebay, I assumed that ebay charges their listing fee and no refunds on that. Once the sale occurs does paypal charge the sellers account for the sale, or do they charge the account when the coins are actually delivered? A flipper selling numerous coins could run up a large bill fast at 8% of numerous $2750 sales.
I was just kind of wondering because I ordered 3 sets from Apmex why 2 or even all 3 haven't been cancelled yet. I was thinking about calling to get my money back but thought I would just sit back and see what happens for awhile. I would have thought they would have been working on clearing this paperwork up by now.
<< <i>Needless to say, i did not word my question very well. I have never sold or bought a presale on ebay, I assumed that ebay charges their listing fee and no refunds on that. Once the sale occurs does paypal charge the sellers account for the sale, or do they charge the account when the coins are actually delivered? A flipper selling numerous coins could run up a large bill fast at 8% of numerous $2750 sales. >>
Ebay Final Value Fees are charged to the seller when the auction ends with a buyer. PayPal charges their fee only after the payment is made.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>A flipper selling numerous coins could run up a large bill fast at 8% of numerous $2750 sales. >>
Exactly my point many pages ago.....These BIN sales are will cost the sellers just under $100 per refunded sale. The Ebay fees are not refundable but the PP fees are.
I have two sellers on my radar....one with 24 SETS sold and one with 26....two more sellers have 7 and 6 sets sold respectively
Do the math...that's a LOT of Ebay fees to be lost
...and one of the top guns just sold another one of those sets 2 days ago....DUH!
most likely these sellers will have everyone they know buy sets for them from the various sellers (AP's) when they become available.
dont kid yourself, there are probably alot of secondary dealers who will be doing the same thing.
i never liked presales, especially when the likelyhood of obtaining the items was questionable within 2 weeks. you will also see as time goes on, presale pricing drops like a rock.
the first "in hand" set will get huge money, much more than the presales available at the same time.
Let's look at the "manipulation" comments throughout this thread. When I think of "manipulation" I think of an effort to artificially control prices. Is APMEX guilty of that? No way. In fact, if anything I think the price APMEX rolled out with could untimately prove to be too low. I also do not believe they were in any way trying to manipulate the market but rather took their best shot at the value based on information available to them. I have no reason to defend them, I compete with them on some levels, and MCM chose not to pre-sell any, but right is right and I for one do not believe what APMEX did was wrong from a common sense and free market point of view. I can't speak for "contractually" as I am not an attorney.
Using the same common sense and free market logic, forcing the sale of these coins at what will almost definitely prove to be WAY too low could make a better case for "manipulation". Also, keep in mind, it's difficult to make a case for upward price manipulation when widespread buyers are lined up around the block to buy them at the "manipulated" price. There was no deception or misrepresentation on the part of APMEX. This was a case of LACK OF SUPPLY combined with BIG DEMAND.
I feel for the AP's that have no retail presence and now will attempt to "retail" (funny since they are basically going to sell $100 bills for $50) the coins because those are the new rules and they do not want to turn their heads on a nice profit. It took me and a very talented staff 2 to 3 years before we built a solid and reliable retail company that could properly handle and service the public in large volume. It is anything but easy, and is the inverse of a wholesale business.
In the end, hats off to everyone that buys these at the 10% markup (which by the way should be based on current spot NOT cost, that is simply absurd- this is not a fixed price product) it might be a very long time before another opportunity like this presents itself.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
I just want my set.....I would have paid the $1395 (tried) with zero grief....
You may be correct about the greed issue.....if I had planned to buy a bunch of sets and they started at $1395 it would have been an issue but with my single set that price was not a problem
<< <i>Let's look at the "manipulation" comments throughout this thread. When I think of "manipulation" I think of an effort to artificially control prices. Is APMEX guilty of that? No way. In fact, if anything I think the price APMEX rolled out with could ultimately prove to be too low. I also do not believe they were in any way trying to manipulate the market but rather took their best shot at the value based on information available to them. I have no reason to defend them, I compete with them on some levels, and MCM chose not to pre-sell any, but right is right and I for one do not believe what APMEX did was wrong from a common sense and free market point of view. I can't speak for "contractually" as I am not an attorney.
John >>
From the Numismaster article mentioned earlier in this thread
<< <i>The new sales rules are “ridiculous,” said Bill Hodges, owner of Southern Coin Investments in Atlanta, Ga., who sells numismatic and bullion coins. “I strongly feel that some distributors won’t handle them at all, and I don’t blame them,” he said. It’s tantamount to price fixing, Hodges said. When dealers were first allowed to place orders with the 11 distributors, Hodges signed up for 20 sets at $1,500 each from one wholesaler. But that deal no longer is valid because of the Mint’s new rules. >>
Looks like APMEX left $105,000.00 on the table, if Southern Coin Investments was willing to pay $1500 a set.
<< <i>Let's look at the "manipulation" comments throughout this thread. When I think of "manipulation" I think of an effort to artificially control prices. Is APMEX guilty of that? No way. In fact, if anything I think the price APMEX rolled out with could untimately prove to be too low. I also do not believe they were in any way trying to manipulate the market but rather took their best shot at the value based on information available to them. I have no reason to defend them, I compete with them on some levels, and MCM chose not to pre-sell any, but right is right and I for one do not believe what APMEX did was wrong from a common sense and free market point of view. I can't speak for "contractually" as I am not an attorney
John >>
How did monaco get 500 sets ? Look at the comment made by one of the dealers he already had an order for 20 sets at 1500. Monaco started these at 1000 bucks offered 10 sets for 975.00 a set.This started on a thursday night and went into friday, that same night ampex started there sale. Again i have no proof that ampex presold these sets to Monaco, its just funny they sold all theres first than that same night ampex throws that 1000 sets for sale. Also this proves that somebody from one of the original buyers pre sold these sets...Again they created a price for these before they even got them. As far as the flippers go good luck some of us just want 1 set at a price that is reasonable.
<< <i>Let's look at the "manipulation" comments throughout this thread. When I think of "manipulation" I think of an effort to artificially control prices. Is APMEX guilty of that? No way. In fact, if anything I think the price APMEX rolled out with could untimately prove to be too low. I also do not believe they were in any way trying to manipulate the market but rather took their best shot at the value based on information available to them. I have no reason to defend them, I compete with them on some levels, and MCM chose not to pre-sell any, but right is right and I for one do not believe what APMEX did was wrong from a common sense and free market point of view. I can't speak for "contractually" as I am not an attorney
John >>
How did monaco get 500 sets ? Look at the comment made by one of the dealers he already had an order for 20 sets at 1500. Monaco started these at 1000 bucks offered 10 sets for 975.00 a set.This started on a thursday night and went into friday, that same night ampex started there sale. Again i have no proof that ampex presold these sets to Monaco, its just funny they sold all theres first than that same night ampex throws that 1000 sets for sale. Also this proves that somebody from one of the original buyers pre sold these sets...Again they created a price for these before they even got them. As far as the flippers go good luck some of us just want 1 set at a price that is reasonable. >>
Monaco never had any sets on hand - those sales were pre sales. They assumed that they would be able to obtain the required sets from one of the AP's...Which one?, well, pick your choice from one of the 11 US that does not have a retail operation, that would be my guess. As of this moment, that obviously is not going to happen based on the Mint's restriction for these pucks.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
(Exactly Ampex was a Presale too) Still it shows they were promised these sets for a reasonable price, otherwise if they paid 1500 a set they would not have started the price at 1000 it was a test sale, to see where the prices would go, by the end of friday the sets were selling for 1500 from monaco..........You also have a statement from one of the dealers who bought 20 sets Presale for 1500. Again that was a PRESALE price one of those top 11 were selling these for before they even got them. its not that hard to connect the dots.....
<< <i>Let's look at the "manipulation" comments throughout this thread. When I think of "manipulation" I think of an effort to artificially control prices. Is APMEX guilty of that? No way. In fact, if anything I think the price APMEX rolled out with could untimately prove to be too low. I also do not believe they were in any way trying to manipulate the market but rather took their best shot at the value based on information available to them. I have no reason to defend them, I compete with them on some levels, and MCM chose not to pre-sell any, but right is right and I for one do not believe what APMEX did was wrong from a common sense and free market point of view. I can't speak for "contractually" as I am not an attorney.
Using the same common sense and free market logic, forcing the sale of these coins at what will almost definitely prove to be WAY too low could make a better case for "manipulation". Also, keep in mind, it's difficult to make a case for upward price manipulation when widespread buyers are lined up around the block to buy them at the "manipulated" price. There was no deception or misrepresentation on the part of APMEX. This was a case of LACK OF SUPPLY combined with BIG DEMAND.
I feel for the AP's that have no retail presence and now will attempt to "retail" (funny since they are basically going to sell $100 bills for $50) the coins because those are the new rules and they do not want to turn their heads on a nice profit. It took me and a very talented staff 2 to 3 years before we built a solid and reliable retail company that could properly handle and service the public in large volume. It is anything but easy, and is the inverse of a wholesale business.
In the end, hats off to everyone that buys these at the 10% markup (which by the way should be based on current spot NOT cost, that is simply absurd- this is not a fixed price product) it might be a very long time before another opportunity like this presents itself.
John >>
Voice of reason & not some conspiracy theory that some still insist on.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
and I'm not entirely sure of their price determination.
I go back to their $1575 "offers" and the low average number of sets per order (about 2.5 sets per order)
If the dealers really were buying at $1575, then they'd have been all over it at $1395. They weren't.
Others saw this $1395 business and piled on. I think we got the okie-doke at $1395 from APMEX and $1500 from Monaco.
I also agree with CaptHenway that this forum helped create and fuel the hype.
It all fed upon itself and blossomed out of control.
PS. Fidelitrade is taking names. Let's just say they are selling sets instead of single coins. Do they have that many number of people equal to the number of sets they could be selling? No? Even at a much reduced price?
The "market price" was more like "what price can we get away with." Others saw and followed suit.
and I'm not entirely sure of their price determination.
I go back to their $1575 "offers" and the low average number of sets per order (about 2.5 sets per order)
If the dealers really were buying at $1575, then they'd have been all over it at $1395. They weren't.
Others saw this $1395 business and piled on. I think we got the okie-doke at $1395 from APMEX and $1500 from Monaco.
I also agree with CaptHenway that this forum helped create and fuel the hype.
It all fed upon itself and blossomed out of control.
Did you ever hear anything firm from MTB on their plans?
PS. Fidelitrade is taking names. Let's just say they are selling sets instead of single coins. Do they have that many number of people equal to the number of sets they could be selling? No? Even at a much reduced price?
The "market price" was more like "what price can we get away with." Others saw and followed suit. >>
<< <i>The "market price" was more like "what price can we get away with." Others saw and followed suit. >>
Isn't that they way it always works? Most businesses try to maximize their profits. As a general rule, the desire to sell your items for as little profit as possible ensures your existence in the marketplace is short lived...
No idea, but I would guess that current year premiums did go up, as some people just have to have current year. For the rest, a silver eagle is a silver eagle.
The idea that a AP should sell at a 10% premium to their dealers when they know the dealers are going to sell them at $1500 a set is absurd. The market was known by these AP's and their wholesalers. They knew these were going to be hot and profits were going to be made. To ask them to tell their wholesalers "no, I only want to make a couple of bucks, you go ahead and make hundreds" is absurd. Those on this board saying they wouldn't flip and only want to buy to hold and they are just bullion are nuts. If these go crazy, and they still believe they are just bullion, they will sell them into this frenzy and buy them back in a few months at spot.
"The idea that a AP should sell at a 10% premium to their dealers when they know the dealers are going to sell them at $1500 a set is absurd. The market was known by these AP's and their wholesalers. They knew these were going to be hot and profits were going to be made. To ask them to tell their wholesalers "no, I only want to make a couple of bucks, you go ahead and make hundreds" is absurd. Those on this board saying they wouldn't flip and only want to buy to hold and they are just bullion are nuts. If these go crazy, and they still believe they are just bullion, they will sell them into this frenzy and buy them back in a few months at spot. "
I just don't understand the rational that it was ok for the distributors to jerk up the price, because it is "free market" at work. IMO that just does not apply. If the distributors put up all up front risk.... designed the coins, purchased the presses, cut the dies, went through the trial and error to develop the designs that would work with the 3" planchets, purchase the blanks, etc., etc., .... then it would be their product and they can charge what they want and it would then be "free market" at work whether customers would purchase at whatever price the offered them at.
But that is NOT the case here. The coins are the MINT's product, all risk and development was undertaken with taxpayers money; the only part the distributor is entitled to in this case is a reasonable distribution markup as per the terms the Mint specifies when it allows the few exclusive distributors the rights to handle these. The "free market" forces apply in the aftermarket... not the original offering by the exclusive distributors.
I wasn't around during the times of the classic commemorative offerings back in the forties and fifties.... but isn't it these same 'greed' issues as those taking place now, that caused the end of the classic commemoratives being issued? Weren't the markets being cornered by special interests and just a few raking in the profits part of the reason the government killed the program?
<< <i>But that is NOT the case here. The coins are the MINT's product, all risk and development was undertaken with taxpayers money; the only part the distributor is entitled to in this case is a reasonable distribution markup as per the terms the Mint specifies when it allows the few exclusive distributors the rights to handle these. The "free market" forces apply in the aftermarket... not the original offering by the exclusive distributors. >>
If these coins stay hot and are selling for $2000 on the first flip, should the sellers feel bad? Should they ship anything over 10% to the Mint with a 'thank you very much, but I only want to make 10%' note attached? In the not too distant future, someone is going to make money on these. They are in short supply and a lot of people want them. The frenzy was there amongst the distributors before the AP's placed their orders. I am sure their phones were ringing off their hooks as their regular customers were looking to acquire these coins.
What will be interesting is when the Mint starts selling the 'collectible' version next year. What will their markup be? How high will the first round of non-Mint sales be?
"If these coins stay hot and are selling for $2000 on the first flip, should the sellers feel bad? Should they ship anything over 10% to the Mint with a 'thank you very much, but I only want to make 10%' note attached? In the not too distant future, someone is going to make money on these. They are in short supply and a lot of people want them. The frenzy was there amongst the distributors before the AP's placed their orders. I am sure their phones were ringing off their hooks as their regular customers were looking to acquire these coins. "
I can certainly understand the AP's desire to capture the profit in these issues. However, the way it was evolving was a huge conflict of interest. If they want to speculate in the issues, then they should not be the AP with a 'lock' on the supply, the ability to cherrypick the very best examples, obtain third party grading, and control the outflow of the coins. The AP's should be concerned with the distribution of the Mint's product as the Mint specifies and expects with the agreement. To do otherwise is a conflict of interest, and a near monopoly of the best coins.
If the AP's want to speculate in the issue, they can participate in the buying and selling in the aftermarket.... but not the original issue and release. At least that is IMO for taxpayer funded government releases.
As for the 10% profit, remember that it is virtually guaranteed for them with little risk especially with these first issues. But I am surprised that the Mint put it at 10%; I figured between 10 and 25% would be allowable. So to me the 10% seems to be on the low side.... perhaps this was a slap down by the Mint because of the previous 80% markups that the AP's were applying and other perceived abuses. I was also surprised that the Mint said the AP employees could not purchase..... but perhaps the Mint did this because of the cherrypicking that would obviously take place.
I suspect this will not be so much of a concern in the future releases, if the mintages are what have been projected in the past. Likewise, this has not been an issue in the past, because of easily replaceable supply of eagles, etc... so no market cornering could be achieved. I also think it would not have been an issue at this time, if the AP's just kept it reasonable at $1000 per set, and did not plan on keeping their allotment for their own grading, etc. These practices pushed things just a little too much. If it was not dealt with now, I expect that it would have started becoming more common in the future.
Let's look at the "manipulation" comments throughout this thread. When I think of "manipulation" I think of an effort to artificially control prices. Is APMEX guilty of that? No way. In fact, if anything I think the price APMEX rolled out with could untimately prove to be too low. I also do not believe they were in any way trying to manipulate the market but rather took their best shot at the value based on information available to them. I have no reason to defend them, I compete with them on some levels, and MCM chose not to pre-sell any, but right is right and I for one do not believe what APMEX did was wrong from a common sense and free market point of view. I can't speak for "contractually" as I am not an attorney.
Gouging isn't the same thing as manipulation. Apmex started the ball rolling by listing a price that would have gouged the crap out of anyone who wanted the set bad enough, and some no doubt would. If that's justification for another dealer jacking the price up to $1,500 then we are ALL in the wrong business. I call BS.
Using the same common sense and free market logic, forcing the sale of these coins at what will almost definitely prove to be WAY too low could make a better case for "manipulation". Also, keep in mind, it's difficult to make a case for upward price manipulation when widespread buyers are lined up around the block to buy them at the "manipulated" price. There was no deception or misrepresentation on the part of APMEX. This was a case of LACK OF SUPPLY combined with BIG DEMAND.
Typical dealer posturing for the "kill". I call it what it is.
I can see this shaping up as one helluva collusion case as the dealers and distributors appear to be holding back on any info while they monitor the internet for how to pump this thing for all it's worth.
I predict that the distributors will make a kickback deal with some lowlife dealers who then will claim that they were overwhelmed with orders @$2,000 per set. Anyone think not?
Watch closely and see who is the first to come up with a supply.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
This whole train wreck with the ATBs has been frustrating but very entertaining reading, it has had more twists and turns that the detective novel I am reading! I do not know how to create a poll, but it would be interesting to see the results of various questions such as how many sets will you buy or try to buy, how many are actually collecting this set vs. selling them within a year, etc.
<< <i>How will the 7 AP's selling the ATB's make sure that the 1 per household is enforced? >>
Each AP is, of course, required to enforce the one per household for their own sales only. They are required to keep their books in order, which must be available for inspection by the Mint. Violating any of the Mint's guidelines could result in losing its status as an AP.
<< <i>How will the 7 AP's selling the ATB's make sure that the 1 per household is enforced? >>
Microchips unique to each set will be installed inside the "O" of "OUNCE on the edge of each coin. If two coins from different sets get "stacked" in some collector's batcave, an emergency beacon will summon agents from the PSA (Puck Security Agency) to come to the location and seize the coins and pummel the offender with nightsticks.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and would blow your head clean off, you better ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?" One should note that even in the 1970s, the .44 Remington Magnum cartridge had been eclipsed in size and power by the .454 Casull round, however, the first widely available commercially sold revolver chambered for the 454 Casull would not come for another ten years, so his statement for the time frame is accurate.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>The Mint will scream, but what can they do? >>
Dump them as an AP, that's what the mint can do. Then they lose their privileged status as an AGE and ASE wholesaler - surely a much bigger and more important part of their business than a micro-allotment of pucks. There is nothing nefarious going on, so all conspiracy buffs can take a rest. The simple fact is that all but one or two of the APs were strictly wholesalers and had no retail arms before this - it takes time to set up. Couple this with the fact that we are in the holiday season when typically very little new development gets done (speaking from experience of 25 years in software), and you have your delay. Lastly, as others have stated, they are all probably waiting until after the final distribution of the remainder on the 20th so they only have to send the Brinks truck once.
It's Friday - have a
Way ahead of you - how else could I have come up my conspiracy theory!
<< <i>It's Friday - have a >> Way ahead of you - how else could I have come up my conspiracy theory! >>
I'm on the west coast - I've got an hour or two to go before it's beer-thirty!!!
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
Still hopeful that the others will offer next week, but maybe not.
I have also heard "handling" and "shipping" fees are contentious points, above and beyond the 10% markup.
auction link
<< <i>Looks like it'll cost $40 bucks each to get 'em slabbed!
From the Coin Network:
NGC Giant slabs >>
Love the holders!
<< <i><< The new Coins n Things (not the Canadian imposter!) website now has am image of the 5 pucks and a note that they will be accepting orders beginning Jan 3. http://atb.cntofma.com/ >> Maybe the reasons for the delayed sale date are: 1) The few AP's that are retail selling do not want the extra workload during the holiday week between Christmas and New Years, and/or 2) They want to push their profits from the sale of ATB's into a new calendar year thus delaying increased tax liabilities for another year. >>
In addition to the possibilities above...
As I understand it, they do/did not have a web site. They need some time to have it developed.
They are launching the site the same day the Coins go on sale. >>
Now if that does not have the potential to get screwed up....
<< <i>
<< <i>Looks like it'll cost $40 bucks each to get 'em slabbed!
From the Coin Network:
NGC Giant slabs >>
Love the holders! >>
Does anyone know what the PCGS holder looks like?
<< <i>Ebay question, i noticed many pre-sales for sets of these coins, how does ebay charge and refund when these sales do not go thru, say for the most likely reason the seller does not get the coins. Does Ebay charge your account as soon as a buyer purchases your pre-sale item? I would think the flippers that have pre-sold a lot of these sets are going to have a nervous Christmas wondering when/if they will get the coins they have sold.
auction link >>
Most of the purchasing these days when using ebay is through Paypal. If you paid a seller for one of these with paypal, and then they cannot get the coin/s, they'd have to open a dispute with the buyer on ebay and ultimately refund using paypal. It's a pretty easy process.
Yep, the presale flippers will probably have a few problems. But a lot of them probably already have strategies in place to get multiple sets, as the mint often has household limits.
<< <i>Ebay question, i noticed many pre-sales for sets of these coins, how does ebay charge and refund when these sales do not go thru, say for the most likely reason the seller does not get the coins. Does Ebay charge your account as soon as a buyer purchases your pre-sale item? I would think the flippers that have pre-sold a lot of these sets are going to have a nervous Christmas wondering when/if they will get the coins they have sold.
auction link >>
Ebay does not charge an account...it's up to the buyer to make payment, even if it's a BIN. I would suspect that most buyers have paid for the item and would have to file a dispute if the seller does not voluntarily refund the $$. 30 days max for future delivery on presale items is allowed by eBay. All of the pre sellers, and I can't shed any tears for them, will have coal stuffed in their stockings.
<< <i>Ebay question, i noticed many pre-sales for sets of these coins, how does ebay charge and refund when these sales do not go thru, say for the most likely reason the seller does not get the coins. Does Ebay charge your account as soon as a buyer purchases your pre-sale item? I would think the flippers that have pre-sold a lot of these sets are going to have a nervous Christmas wondering when/if they will get the coins they have sold.
auction link >>
Don't worry, you'll get your coins or a rebate.
OR
Don't worry, ebay won't kick you off.
<< <i>Needless to say, i did not word my question very well. I have never sold or bought a presale on ebay, I assumed that ebay charges their listing fee and no refunds on that. Once the sale occurs does paypal charge the sellers account for the sale, or do they charge the account when the coins are actually delivered? A flipper selling numerous coins could run up a large bill fast at 8% of numerous $2750 sales. >>
Ebay Final Value Fees are charged to the seller when the auction ends with a buyer. PayPal charges their fee only after the payment is made.
<< <i>A flipper selling numerous coins could run up a large bill fast at 8% of numerous $2750 sales. >>
Exactly my point many pages ago.....These BIN sales are will cost the sellers just under $100 per refunded sale. The Ebay fees are not refundable but the PP fees are.
I have two sellers on my radar....one with 24 SETS sold and one with 26....two more sellers have 7 and 6 sets sold respectively
Do the math...that's a LOT of Ebay fees to be lost
...and one of the top guns just sold another one of those sets 2 days ago....DUH!
dont kid yourself, there are probably alot of secondary dealers who will be doing the same thing.
i never liked presales, especially when the likelyhood of obtaining the items was questionable within 2 weeks. you will also see as time goes on, presale pricing drops like a rock.
the first "in hand" set will get huge money, much more than the presales available at the same time.
Using the same common sense and free market logic, forcing the sale of these coins at what will almost definitely prove to be WAY too low could make a better case for "manipulation". Also, keep in mind, it's difficult to make a case for upward price manipulation when widespread buyers are lined up around the block to buy them at the "manipulated" price. There was no deception or misrepresentation on the part of APMEX. This was a case of LACK OF SUPPLY combined with BIG DEMAND.
I feel for the AP's that have no retail presence and now will attempt to "retail" (funny since they are basically going to sell $100 bills for $50) the coins because those are the new rules and they do not want to turn their heads on a nice profit. It took me and a very talented staff 2 to 3 years before we built a solid and reliable retail company that could properly handle and service the public in large volume. It is anything but easy, and is the inverse of a wholesale business.
In the end, hats off to everyone that buys these at the 10% markup (which by the way should be based on current spot NOT cost, that is simply absurd- this is not a fixed price product) it might be a very long time before another opportunity like this presents itself.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
You may be correct about the greed issue.....if I had planned to buy a bunch of sets and they started at $1395 it would have been an issue but with my single set that price was not a problem
<< <i>Let's look at the "manipulation" comments throughout this thread. When I think of "manipulation" I think of an effort to artificially control prices. Is APMEX guilty of that? No way. In fact, if anything I think the price APMEX rolled out with could ultimately prove to be too low. I also do not believe they were in any way trying to manipulate the market but rather took their best shot at the value based on information available to them. I have no reason to defend them, I compete with them on some levels, and MCM chose not to pre-sell any, but right is right and I for one do not believe what APMEX did was wrong from a common sense and free market point of view. I can't speak for "contractually" as I am not an attorney.
John >>
From the Numismaster article mentioned earlier in this thread
<< <i>The new sales rules are “ridiculous,” said Bill Hodges, owner of Southern Coin Investments in Atlanta, Ga., who sells numismatic and bullion coins. “I strongly feel that some distributors won’t handle them at all, and I don’t blame them,” he said. It’s tantamount to price fixing, Hodges said. When dealers were first allowed to place orders with the 11 distributors, Hodges signed up for 20 sets at $1,500 each from one wholesaler. But that deal no longer is valid because of the Mint’s new rules. >>
Looks like APMEX left $105,000.00 on the table, if Southern Coin Investments was willing to pay $1500 a set.
<< <i>Let's look at the "manipulation" comments throughout this thread. When I think of "manipulation" I think of an effort to artificially control prices. Is APMEX guilty of that? No way. In fact, if anything I think the price APMEX rolled out with could untimately prove to be too low. I also do not believe they were in any way trying to manipulate the market but rather took their best shot at the value based on information available to them. I have no reason to defend them, I compete with them on some levels, and MCM chose not to pre-sell any, but right is right and I for one do not believe what APMEX did was wrong from a common sense and free market point of view. I can't speak for "contractually" as I am not an attorney
John >>
How did monaco get 500 sets ? Look at the comment made by one of the dealers he already had an order for 20 sets at 1500. Monaco started these at 1000 bucks offered 10 sets for 975.00 a set.This started on a thursday night and went into friday, that same night ampex started there sale. Again i have no proof that ampex presold these sets to Monaco, its just funny they sold all theres first than that same night ampex throws that 1000 sets for sale. Also this proves that somebody from one of the original buyers pre sold these sets...Again they created a price for these before they even got them. As far as the flippers go good luck some of us just want 1 set at a price that is reasonable.
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
<< <i>
<< <i>Let's look at the "manipulation" comments throughout this thread. When I think of "manipulation" I think of an effort to artificially control prices. Is APMEX guilty of that? No way. In fact, if anything I think the price APMEX rolled out with could untimately prove to be too low. I also do not believe they were in any way trying to manipulate the market but rather took their best shot at the value based on information available to them. I have no reason to defend them, I compete with them on some levels, and MCM chose not to pre-sell any, but right is right and I for one do not believe what APMEX did was wrong from a common sense and free market point of view. I can't speak for "contractually" as I am not an attorney
John >>
How did monaco get 500 sets ? Look at the comment made by one of the dealers he already had an order for 20 sets at 1500. Monaco started these at 1000 bucks offered 10 sets for 975.00 a set.This started on a thursday night and went into friday, that same night ampex started there sale. Again i have no proof that ampex presold these sets to Monaco, its just funny they sold all theres first than that same night ampex throws that 1000 sets for sale. Also this proves that somebody from one of the original buyers pre sold these sets...Again they created a price for these before they even got them. As far as the flippers go good luck some of us just want 1 set at a price that is reasonable.
Monaco never had any sets on hand - those sales were pre sales. They assumed that they would be able to obtain the required sets from one of the AP's...Which one?, well, pick your choice from one of the 11 US that does not have a retail operation, that would be my guess. As of this moment, that obviously is not going to happen based on the Mint's restriction for these pucks.
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
<< <i>Let's look at the "manipulation" comments throughout this thread. When I think of "manipulation" I think of an effort to artificially control prices. Is APMEX guilty of that? No way. In fact, if anything I think the price APMEX rolled out with could untimately prove to be too low. I also do not believe they were in any way trying to manipulate the market but rather took their best shot at the value based on information available to them. I have no reason to defend them, I compete with them on some levels, and MCM chose not to pre-sell any, but right is right and I for one do not believe what APMEX did was wrong from a common sense and free market point of view. I can't speak for "contractually" as I am not an attorney.
Using the same common sense and free market logic, forcing the sale of these coins at what will almost definitely prove to be WAY too low could make a better case for "manipulation". Also, keep in mind, it's difficult to make a case for upward price manipulation when widespread buyers are lined up around the block to buy them at the "manipulated" price. There was no deception or misrepresentation on the part of APMEX. This was a case of LACK OF SUPPLY combined with BIG DEMAND.
I feel for the AP's that have no retail presence and now will attempt to "retail" (funny since they are basically going to sell $100 bills for $50) the coins because those are the new rules and they do not want to turn their heads on a nice profit. It took me and a very talented staff 2 to 3 years before we built a solid and reliable retail company that could properly handle and service the public in large volume. It is anything but easy, and is the inverse of a wholesale business.
In the end, hats off to everyone that buys these at the 10% markup (which by the way should be based on current spot NOT cost, that is simply absurd- this is not a fixed price product) it might be a very long time before another opportunity like this presents itself.
John >>
Voice of reason & not some conspiracy theory that some still insist on.
more like a pile on.
and I'm not entirely sure of their price determination.
I go back to their $1575 "offers" and the low average number of sets per order (about 2.5 sets per order)
If the dealers really were buying at $1575, then they'd have been all over it at $1395. They weren't.
Others saw this $1395 business and piled on. I think we got the okie-doke at $1395 from APMEX and $1500 from Monaco.
I also agree with CaptHenway that this forum helped create and fuel the hype.
It all fed upon itself and blossomed out of control.
PS. Fidelitrade is taking names. Let's just say they are selling sets instead of single coins. Do they have that many number of people equal to the number of sets they could be selling? No? Even at a much reduced price?
The "market price" was more like "what price can we get away with." Others saw and followed suit.
<< <i>no conspiracy here.
more like a pile on.
and I'm not entirely sure of their price determination.
I go back to their $1575 "offers" and the low average number of sets per order (about 2.5 sets per order)
If the dealers really were buying at $1575, then they'd have been all over it at $1395. They weren't.
Others saw this $1395 business and piled on. I think we got the okie-doke at $1395 from APMEX and $1500 from Monaco.
I also agree with CaptHenway that this forum helped create and fuel the hype.
It all fed upon itself and blossomed out of control.
Did you ever hear anything firm from MTB on their plans?
PS. Fidelitrade is taking names. Let's just say they are selling sets instead of single coins. Do they have that many number of people equal to the number of sets they could be selling? No? Even at a much reduced price?
The "market price" was more like "what price can we get away with." Others saw and followed suit. >>
<< <i>The "market price" was more like "what price can we get away with." Others saw and followed suit. >>
Isn't that they way it always works? Most businesses try to maximize their profits. As a general rule, the desire to sell your items for as little profit as possible ensures your existence in the marketplace is short lived...
"try next week"
As far as maximizing profit, they should be treating this like the other bullion they sell.
<< <i>As far as maximizing profit, they should be treating this like the other bullion they sell. >>
do all the AP's sell their bullion at the same price?
When the "planchet shortage" caused the mint to ration bullion, did they start selling at a 60% markup?
The idea that a AP should sell at a 10% premium to their dealers when they know the dealers are going to sell them at $1500 a set is absurd. The market was known by these AP's and their wholesalers. They knew these were going to be hot and profits were going to be made. To ask them to tell their wholesalers "no, I only want to make a couple of bucks, you go ahead and make hundreds" is absurd. Those on this board saying they wouldn't flip and only want to buy to hold and they are just bullion are nuts. If these go crazy, and they still believe they are just bullion, they will sell them into this frenzy and buy them back in a few months at spot.
I just don't understand the rational that it was ok for the distributors to jerk up the price, because it is "free market" at work. IMO that just does not apply. If the distributors put up all up front risk.... designed the coins, purchased the presses, cut the dies, went through the trial and error to develop the designs that would work with the 3" planchets, purchase the blanks, etc., etc., .... then it would be their product and they can charge what they want and it would then be "free market" at work whether customers would purchase at whatever price the offered them at.
But that is NOT the case here. The coins are the MINT's product, all risk and development was undertaken with taxpayers money; the only part the distributor is entitled to in this case is a reasonable distribution markup as per the terms the Mint specifies when it allows the few exclusive distributors the rights to handle these. The "free market" forces apply in the aftermarket... not the original offering by the exclusive distributors.
I wasn't around during the times of the classic commemorative offerings back in the forties and fifties.... but isn't it these same 'greed' issues as those taking place now, that caused the end of the classic commemoratives being issued? Weren't the markets being cornered by special interests and just a few raking in the profits part of the reason the government killed the program?
<< <i>This thread really reeks of greed now!
I think flippers will get killed, except those idiots that pre-sell.
And I hope their deals fall through.
<< <i>I think flippers will do well, those idiots that pre-sell will get killed >>
Fixed that for ya.
Edited to say
<< <i>But that is NOT the case here. The coins are the MINT's product, all risk and development was undertaken with taxpayers money; the only part the distributor is entitled to in this case is a reasonable distribution markup as per the terms the Mint specifies when it allows the few exclusive distributors the rights to handle these. The "free market" forces apply in the aftermarket... not the original offering by the exclusive distributors. >>
If these coins stay hot and are selling for $2000 on the first flip, should the sellers feel bad? Should they ship anything over 10% to the Mint with a 'thank you very much, but I only want to make 10%' note attached? In the not too distant future, someone is going to make money on these. They are in short supply and a lot of people want them. The frenzy was there amongst the distributors before the AP's placed their orders. I am sure their phones were ringing off their hooks as their regular customers were looking to acquire these coins.
What will be interesting is when the Mint starts selling the 'collectible' version next year. What will their markup be? How high will the first round of non-Mint sales be?
I can certainly understand the AP's desire to capture the profit in these issues. However, the way it was evolving was a huge conflict of interest. If they want to speculate in the issues, then they should not be the AP with a 'lock' on the supply, the ability to cherrypick the very best examples, obtain third party grading, and control the outflow of the coins. The AP's should be concerned with the distribution of the Mint's product as the Mint specifies and expects with the agreement. To do otherwise is a conflict of interest, and a near monopoly of the best coins.
If the AP's want to speculate in the issue, they can participate in the buying and selling in the aftermarket.... but not the original issue and release. At least that is IMO for taxpayer funded government releases.
As for the 10% profit, remember that it is virtually guaranteed for them with little risk especially with these first issues. But I am surprised that the Mint put it at 10%; I figured between 10 and 25% would be allowable. So to me the 10% seems to be on the low side.... perhaps this was a slap down by the Mint because of the previous 80% markups that the AP's were applying and other perceived abuses. I was also surprised that the Mint said the AP employees could not purchase..... but perhaps the Mint did this because of the cherrypicking that would obviously take place.
I suspect this will not be so much of a concern in the future releases, if the mintages are what have been projected in the past. Likewise, this has not been an issue in the past, because of easily replaceable supply of eagles, etc... so no market cornering could be achieved. I also think it would not have been an issue at this time, if the AP's just kept it reasonable at $1000 per set, and did not plan on keeping their allotment for their own grading, etc. These practices pushed things just a little too much. If it was not dealt with now, I expect that it would have started becoming more common in the future.
Gouging isn't the same thing as manipulation. Apmex started the ball rolling by listing a price that would have gouged the crap out of anyone who wanted the set bad enough, and some no doubt would. If that's justification for another dealer jacking the price up to $1,500 then we are ALL in the wrong business. I call BS.
Using the same common sense and free market logic, forcing the sale of these coins at what will almost definitely prove to be WAY too low could make a better case for "manipulation". Also, keep in mind, it's difficult to make a case for upward price manipulation when widespread buyers are lined up around the block to buy them at the "manipulated" price. There was no deception or misrepresentation on the part of APMEX. This was a case of LACK OF SUPPLY combined with BIG DEMAND.
Typical dealer posturing for the "kill". I call it what it is.
I can see this shaping up as one helluva collusion case as the dealers and distributors appear to be holding back on any info while they monitor the internet for how to pump this thing for all it's worth.
I predict that the distributors will make a kickback deal with some lowlife dealers who then will claim that they were overwhelmed with orders @$2,000 per set. Anyone think not?
Watch closely and see who is the first to come up with a supply.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>How will the 7 AP's selling the ATB's make sure that the 1 per household is enforced? >>
Each AP is, of course, required to enforce the one per household for their own sales only. They are required to keep their books in order, which must be available for inspection by the Mint. Violating any of the Mint's guidelines could result in losing its status as an AP.
<< <i>How will the 7 AP's selling the ATB's make sure that the 1 per household is enforced? >>
Microchips unique to each set will be installed inside the "O" of "OUNCE on the edge of each coin. If two coins from different sets get "stacked" in some collector's batcave, an emergency beacon will summon agents from the PSA (Puck Security Agency) to come to the location and seize the coins and pummel the offender with nightsticks.
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and would blow your head clean off, you better ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?" One should note that even in the 1970s, the .44 Remington Magnum cartridge had been eclipsed in size and power by the .454 Casull round, however, the first widely available commercially sold revolver chambered for the 454 Casull would not come for another ten years, so his statement for the time frame is accurate.
null
Agreed.