I love this. It's a perfect illustration of the market manipulation that happened on the front end by the APs and a SELECT FEW underhanded dealers with inside connections to the APs.
It wasn't a fair deal. It was a scam setup from the beginning. Now it's out in the open and the sets are selling at just over spot. Kinda makes you wonder what the market REALLY is for these pucks.
This IS the justification for GETTING RID of the Authorized Distributor Network.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
How do the APs explain selling these on ebay almost 3 months after they got them from the mint? I thought these had to be distributed in a timely manner?
<< <i>How do the APs explain selling these on ebay almost 3 months after they got them from the mint? I thought these had to be distributed in a timely manner? >>
They will just say that they did not have a system in place to handle selling the coins the way the mint wanted them to. That's all.
<< <i>I love this. It's a perfect illustration of the market manipulation that happened on the front end by the APs and a SELECT FEW underhanded dealers with inside connections to the APs.
It wasn't a fair deal. It was a scam setup from the beginning. Now it's out in the open and the sets are selling at just over spot. Kinda makes you wonder what the market REALLY is for these pucks.
This IS the justification for GETTING RID of the Authorized Distributor Network. >>
There still is not a 'free market' for these sets. MTB is selling this at a Gov't set price, not market price. This flood of pucks at below market prices is what is killing the price. The price will go back up. Generic ASE's are selling for $6 an ounce over spot - that would place these at $1100. It is not a stretch to add a couple of hundred a set for a premium at you are at the $1300/set that they were going for before the latest AP dump
<< <i>I love this. It's a perfect illustration of the market manipulation that happened on the front end by the APs and a SELECT FEW underhanded dealers with inside connections to the APs.
It wasn't a fair deal. It was a scam setup from the beginning. Now it's out in the open and the sets are selling at just over spot. Kinda makes you wonder what the market REALLY is for these pucks.
This IS the justification for GETTING RID of the Authorized Distributor Network. >>
Yes I am thinking the same, lets cut out the AP"s and let the mint sell direct on ebay, the prices would be cheaper without the AP's markup. Our tax dollars would go back into the pot instead of the AP's pocket. With the sales on ebay a million dollor plus company is now going to compete agaisnt us average joes. Who"s to say they don't start selling there alotments of silver eagles and the ATB directly on ebay? The mint needs to take a look at this.......................
<< <i>I love this. It's a perfect illustration of the market manipulation that happened on the front end by the APs and a SELECT FEW underhanded dealers with inside connections to the APs.
It wasn't a fair deal. It was a scam setup from the beginning. Now it's out in the open and the sets are selling at just over spot. Kinda makes you wonder what the market REALLY is for these pucks.
This IS the justification for GETTING RID of the Authorized Distributor Network. >>
Yes I am thinking the same, lets cut out the AP"s and let the mint sell direct on ebay, the prices would be cheaper without the AP's markup. Our tax dollars would go back into the pot instead of the AP's pocket. With the sales on ebay a million dollor plus company is now going to compete agaisnt us average joes. Who"s to say they don't start selling there alotments of silver eagles and the ATB directly on ebay? The mint needs to take a look at this....................... >>
There is no freaking way I am paying $1025 for an MTB set when MTB sold before for $930 and the price hike is because of ebay fees. The mint selling via ebay is not a good idea.
<< <i>I love this. It's a perfect illustration of the market manipulation that happened on the front end by the APs and a SELECT FEW underhanded dealers with inside connections to the APs.
It wasn't a fair deal. It was a scam setup from the beginning. Now it's out in the open and the sets are selling at just over spot. Kinda makes you wonder what the market REALLY is for these pucks.
This IS the justification for GETTING RID of the Authorized Distributor Network. >>
I agree...the AP sales over the last few months certainly looked like a conscious metering effort to me. The metering having the effect of keeping the secondary price artificially high.
Now that the Mint has the certification process, we're finally seeing real sales. Four APs selling around the same time? That was unheard of two months ago!
MTB and Jack Hunt sales over the last few days have been strong. It's silver at a fantastic price.
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I don't know the prices on these but at the west palm beach show this morning I saw a 5 piece set pcgs first strike 2010 where the dealer was asking $2000. Was that a fair price?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
There still is not a 'free market' for these sets.
I'd have to agree with you on that. A free market would imply that the supply hasn't been bottlenecked down to only 9 outlets or that only a few dealers are able to get their hands on the sets inititally, or that the supply is carefully metered out in a trickle so that the secondary prices can go through the roof while the select few can unload their inventory.
MTB is selling this at a Gov't set price, not market price.
If that's your reason for not calling it a free market, I'd say that you are missing 98% of the big picture. If the Govt didn't set a price comparable to bullion pricing, the baseline price would have been $1,395.00 instead of $860.00 - and the gouging would have been 100X worse. That's not a free market by any definition. The whole program was to be a ****bullion**** program, not an exclusive dealer offering.
This flood of pucks at below market prices is what is killing the price.
And that's how it should have been in the FIRST PLACE. Not for the select few to make a fortune because of some special status.
The price will go back up.
Maybe so. Maybe so. But it'll be the market that makes it happen if it does go back up. Interesting concept, eh?
Generic ASE's are selling for $6 an ounce over spot - that would place these at $1100. It is not a stretch to add a couple of hundred a set for a premium at you are at the $1300/set that they were going for before the latest AP dump
When Apmex offered their sets at $1,395.00 the price of silver was around $29.00/oz. If my math is correct, their premium was $1,395/$725 = 92% at the time.
Apmex currently sells Silver Eagles at markups starting at $4.19/oz., which is closer to 11.2% (for a green monster box) and for individual coins as low as 15.6% (for 2010s). Your $6.00 premium is fiction.
Again, if my math comprehension is anywhere near correct, 92% is not nearly the same as 11.2% or even 15.6%.
The AP's were obligated to follow the rules of their distribution agreements in keeping their pucks in-line with bullion pricing. Apmex didn't do that. They violated their agreement. So, would you rather have distribution by the rules or by no rules? The free market will take care of itself, but there is no reason on Earth to give free reign to a select few in order to let them gouge the crap out of everyone else.
Agree? No?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>This is the bubble busting right here. Anyone who does not see it is blind. All of us who now have the ATBs better be in love with them for what they are. They have nowhere to go but down. Sorry. I love mine but now realize they are mine for quite a while. Years and years or more. This is fun! >>
Are you predicting a fall in the price of silver? That's the only way the bubble can burst. Buying silver at dimes above spot is about the best you can do. >>
Yes. Having lived through the 1981 market manipulation where many people who bought at spot suffered tremendous losses when spot price crashed and subsequently stayed far below it's then record spot price for decades! Decades! All markets have manipulators including this one. We don't even know what most of them are. I hope silver and the PMs continue their ride but with hedge funds, high speed high frequency trading, large multimillion $ orders being placed and then cancelled a millisecond later etc I think we can be whipsawed again. This goes for all financial markets. A lot of big hedge funds have gotten into big bets on PMs in the last few years. Suppose they decide to sell or otherwise short this market, they easily can turn any financial market today. I love the ATBs. But think for a moment if your feelings about buying them today "at pennies above spot" would feel different or less enthusiastic if spot does down to $16 as it was a year ago. Yeah I know...great buying opportunity but you could be underwater on these for a long long time. They are selling at basically spot now. Also, after big drops in price, many stay away from the market for a long time just like the average Joe with the stock market now after that big crash. Bottom line is nobody, especially me knows for sure where silver spot will be in the future. Everyone feels good when the tide raises all boats. We have to realize and accept the risk that silver prices could again crash and stay low for decades.
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<< <i>I love this. It's a perfect illustration of the market manipulation that happened on the front end by the APs and a SELECT FEW underhanded dealers with inside connections to the APs.
It wasn't a fair deal. It was a scam setup from the beginning. Now it's out in the open and the sets are selling at just over spot. Kinda makes you wonder what the market REALLY is for these pucks.
This IS the justification for GETTING RID of the Authorized Distributor Network. >>
I agree...the AP sales over the last few months certainly looked like a conscious metering effort to me. The metering having the effect of keeping the secondary price artificially high.
Now that the Mint has the certification process, we're finally seeing real sales. Four APs selling around the same time? That was unheard of two months ago!
MTB and Jack Hunt sales over the last few days have been strong. It's silver at a fantastic price. >>
I think it called collusion.
I don't think collusion is what's happening.
I think it's just a case of FUBAR, start to finish.
<< <i>This is the bubble busting right here. Anyone who does not see it is blind. All of us who now have the ATBs better be in love with them for what they are. They have nowhere to go but down. Sorry. I love mine but now realize they are mine for quite a while. Years and years or more. This is fun! >>
Are you predicting a fall in the price of silver? That's the only way the bubble can burst. Buying silver at dimes above spot is about the best you can do. >>
Yes. Having lived through the 1981 market manipulation where many people who bought at spot suffered tremendous losses when spot price crashed and subsequently stayed far below it's then record spot price for decades! Decades! All markets have manipulators including this one. We don't even know what most of them are. I hope silver and the PMs continue their ride but with hedge funds, high speed high frequency trading, large multimillion $ orders being placed and then cancelled a millisecond later etc I think we can be whipsawed again. This goes for all financial markets. A lot of big hedge funds have gotten into big bets on PMs in the last few years. Suppose they decide to sell or otherwise short this market, they easily can turn any financial market today. I love the ATBs. But think for a moment if your feelings about buying them today "at pennies above spot" would feel different or less enthusiastic if spot does down to $16 as it was a year ago. Yeah I know...great buying opportunity but you could be underwater on these for a long long time. They are selling at basically spot now. Also, after big drops in price, many stay away from the market for a long time just like the average Joe with the stock market now after that big crash. Bottom line is nobody, especially me knows for sure where silver spot will be in the future. Everyone feels good when the tide raises all boats. We have to realize and accept the risk that silver prices could again crash and stay low for decades. >>
I think the point is that IF you are planning to buy silver why not buy these if you can get them near spot..better price than ASE's....not reallyas much to do with the issue but rather the intrinsic value..
<< <i>Yes. Having lived through the 1981 market manipulation where many people who bought at spot suffered tremendous losses when spot price crashed and subsequently stayed far below it's then record spot price for decades! Decades! All markets have manipulators including this one. We don't even know what most of them are. I hope silver and the PMs continue their ride but with hedge funds, high speed high frequency trading, large multimillion $ orders being placed and then cancelled a millisecond later etc I think we can be whipsawed again. This goes for all financial markets. A lot of big hedge funds have gotten into big bets on PMs in the last few years. Suppose they decide to sell or otherwise short this market, they easily can turn any financial market today. I love the ATBs. But think for a moment if your feelings about buying them today "at pennies above spot" would feel different or less enthusiastic if spot does down to $16 as it was a year ago. Yeah I know...great buying opportunity but you could be underwater on these for a long long time. They are selling at basically spot now. Also, after big drops in price, many stay away from the market for a long time just like the average Joe with the stock market now after that big crash. Bottom line is nobody, especially me knows for sure where silver spot will be in the future. Everyone feels good when the tide raises all boats. We have to realize and accept the risk that silver prices could again crash and stay low for decades. >>
Then you are referring to a silver bubble bursting, not an ATB-bubble. This is a discussion more appropraite for the PM forum, not for the ATB thread in the US coin forum.
We've all been buying these ATB coins for its Numismatic Collectibility and its resale value. The PM of Silver has had little to do with it. Even when APMEX was selling them for $1350 a set people still bought even though it was almost twice the then current PM of silver.
Even if Silver were to plummet down to $20 next week, we'd still be buying these at the Mint's regulated price and they'd still be selling for around how much they are. But I do feel that if Silver PM were to fall and make the 2011 ATB Coins a lot more accessable to the masses on a budget, we'll see a LOT more people being aware that these coins exist and a LOT more interest and new collectors of them. The demand for the 2010's will just go up. I for one would like to see the PM of silver drop drastically to make it easier for me to collect the rest of the set as the years go by.
The Mint should have mandated that all coins be made available to the general public by a given date. No OTC-only orders. No phone-only orders. By not doing this, they created an artificially-inflated market that hurt a lot of buyers. The thing that kills me is that GC and his cohorts were the primary beneficiaries of this whole fiasco.
<< <i>I have just one set from FT - they look like nice coins - I have not yet pulled them from their bubble bags. But the real value in these IMHO is long term, and perhaps a component of the value will be bullion. >>
My one set that I kept was FT. My first concern was rim damage and so inspected them through the bubble wrap and they looked great. I decided at that point to leave them in the bubble wrap until I received my Air-Tites. Someone on another forum talked me into opening them saying that the bubble wrap hide any sign of mirrored fields. So I opened them...very nice coins turned into amazing coins with some outstanding mirrors...at least 3 PL one of which is most likely DMPL - IMHO. You may be in for a nice bonus once you open the bubblewrap!
I am still keeping my set raw, not sure why. I just like them that way and I currently have no money into my keeper set, having sold two of my three sets at just enough profit to cover all three.
I am still keeping my set raw, not sure why. I just like them that way and I currently have no money into my keeper set, having sold two of my three sets at just enough profit to cover all three. >>
I understand the allure of grading, but the set I keep will be raw as well!
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I am still keeping my set raw, not sure why. I just like them that way and I currently have no money into my keeper set, having sold two of my three sets at just enough profit to cover all three. >>
I understand the allure of grading, but the set I keep will be raw as well! >>
Same here. I'm going to grade my coins so I can sell them at a higher premium (ALL my coins so far look to be 68+ grades). But I'm going ot cherry pick through them and keep the best looking set and keep them ungraded. I personally do NOT like coins in a slab. Its horrible for presentation and display. I hope one day PCGS comes out with alternative slabs that I can display my coins in while still being slabbed. Like I mentioned in a post earlier, I want a circular slab that's maybe an inch bigger in circumference with the details of its grading in a circular on an outer ring maybe a 1/4 of an Inch away from the coin and the outer edge. Or even a Triangular slab where the coin rests in the center and the grading details are on the 3 corners.
I just can't see a way to display them in a nice way in the slabs!
If you send your AMark Choice BU First Strike slabs in for grading, do they keep their First Strike status?
We've all been buying these ATB coins for its Numismatic Collectibility and its resale value. The PM of Silver has had little to do with it.
That's not the case for everyone. The offering price was absolutely the determining factor for me.
Even if Silver were to plummet down to $20 next week, we'd still be buying these at the Mint's regulated price and they'd still be selling for around how much they are.
I would tend to disagree with that assumption as well. I don't think anyone knows how the market for pucks would act if silver goes to $20/oz. I don't think that the current pricing would survive. Not even close.
we'll see a LOT more people being aware that these coins exist and a LOT more interest and new collectors of them.
The economy might have alot to say about how many new collectors for pucks come online in 2011. If silver drops and the buyers who paid big premiums for the privilege of owning pucks in 2010 at high premiums start losing money on their investments, they might not be so hot to start slapping down a grand or more for a set in 2011.
We don't know what the market for the pucks is yet. Maybe it'll be large, maybe it won't.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>If you send your AMark Choice BU First Strike slabs in for grading, do they keep their First Strike status?
We've all been buying these ATB coins for its Numismatic Collectibility and its resale value. The PM of Silver has had little to do with it.
That's not the case for everyone. The offering price was absolutely the determining factor for me.
Even if Silver were to plummet down to $20 next week, we'd still be buying these at the Mint's regulated price and they'd still be selling for around how much they are.
I would tend to disagree with that assumption as well. I don't think anyone knows how the market for pucks would act if silver goes to $20/oz. I don't think that the current pricing would survive. Not even close.
we'll see a LOT more people being aware that these coins exist and a LOT more interest and new collectors of them.
The economy might have alot to say about how many new collectors for pucks come online in 2011. If silver drops and the buyers who paid big premiums for the privilege of owning pucks in 2010 at high premiums start losing money on their investments, they might not be so hot to start slapping down a grand or more for a set in 2011.
We don't know what the market for the pucks is yet. Maybe it'll be large, maybe it won't. >>
Hehe. You have some interesting points. I guess what it comes down to is... either you really like the ATB coins for what they are and you enjoy them, or you're in it to try to make some money. If you're in it because you enjoy the coins, you cant lose. If you're in it for the money, then you're taking a gamble.
I guess what it comes down to is... either you really like the ATB coins for what they are and you enjoy them, or you're in it to try to make some money. If you're in it because you enjoy the coins, you cant lose. If you're in it for the money, then you're taking a gamble.
I try real hard not to gamble with real dollars unless I'm in Vegas or at a casino and gambling for recreation. I am taking a shine to the pucks, but I also like to think that I'm in them for some money. If I'd bought them at $1,395.00/set - that would have been gambling.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
This 2010 puck flood is the prefect thing for the series as a whole imo. Get them out and move on to the 2011's. Let the collector base grow. Now,, If we have a big drop in spot really quickly then I'd be inclined to think there is more going on that our little flipper group is aware of. But the mintage vs collector base potential is still a fact hard to dispute. It's the game we play. If a proclamation that the market has crashed finds you looking over the edge of building then maybe you shouldn't play. In reality it didn't crash, it slowed down.
<< <i>We've all been buying these ATB coins for its Numismatic Collectibility and its resale value. The PM of Silver has had little to do with it. >>
No....I have been buying these instead of my normal yearly allotment of ASE's.....If someone wants to offer me more than the silver content is worth then so be it....
Just a quick side question as I don't want to go too far off topic...
This is the first bullion I have purchased. So do the bullion version ASE's ever show the mirrored fields? I assume most dealers would cherry pick those and your only chance would be a monster box...? Will any die produce mirrored coins through the initial strikes?
If not, then the question would be, if these really gain momentum and start replacing a lot of ASE's over the next few years, will the mint stop polishing the dies becasue there are just too many being produced? And thus will the chances fo future years producing PL and DMPL decline even though production might continue to go up?
Okay, I guess that ended up not being tto far off topic...
<< <i>Generic ASE's are selling for $6 an ounce over spot - that would place these at $1100. It is not a stretch to add a couple of hundred a set for a premium at you are at the $1300/set that they were going for before the latest AP dump
When Apmex offered their sets at $1,395.00 the price of silver was around $29.00/oz. If my math is correct, their premium was $1,395/$725 = 92% at the time.
Apmex currently sells Silver Eagles at markups starting at $4.19/oz., which is closer to 11.2% (for a green monster box) and for individual coins as low as 15.6% (for 2010s). Your $6.00 premium is fiction.
Again, if my math comprehension is anywhere near correct, 92% is not nearly the same as 11.2% or even 15.6%.
The AP's were obligated to follow the rules of their distribution agreements in keeping their pucks in-line with bullion pricing. Apmex didn't do that. They violated their agreement. So, would you rather have distribution by the rules or by no rules? The free market will take care of itself, but there is no reason on Earth to give free reign to a select few in order to let them gouge the crap out of everyone else.
Agree? No? >>
The $6 premium was relating to eBay ASE sales, not from the AP. Apmex wasn't the only AP not following the rules - they were just dumb enough to sell to the general public. But for that error, these would have gone out through the AP's distribution network and the first chance a 'consumer' would have had to buy them would have been well north of the $1395 price. The Mint would not been able to do anything about it at that point. Of course, the sets would have been on the market all at once instead of this 4 month drip that has prevent a market to be established.
I do wonder if these had been sold the 'normal' way, would the DM/PL issue every have come up?
This is the first bullion I have purchased. So do the bullion version ASE's ever show the mirrored fields? I assume most dealers would cherry pick those and your only chance would be a monster box...? Will any die produce mirrored coins through the initial strikes?
Okay, I guess that ended up not being tto far off topic... >>
Actually, I wouldn't call it off topic as it does relate to desirability of the ATBs vs. ASEs. (in the part I cut out)
I'll answer the first part first.
I'm relatively new too but I've never heard of PL or DMPL bullion ASEs.
Not all dealers cherrypick, but there are some that do sell both graded and ungraded ASEs in large numbers. I suspect they cherrypick. One or two examples I suspect would be APMEX and Gainesville Coins.
<< <i>If not, then the question would be, if these really gain momentum and start replacing a lot of ASE's over the next few years, will the mint stop polishing the dies becasue there are just too many being produced? And thus will the chances fo future years producing PL and DMPL decline even though production might continue to go up? >>
Since they are bullion, and since they are making a numismatic version, the mint may not care what designation the coins receive.
If I read you correctly, you are worried that the mint may not put the care into the die making process to coin DMPLs in the future, esp. if they start making a lot of them?
I think part of that depends upon the answer to the question about what causes the mint to spit out a DMPL coin.
<< <i>If not, then the question would be, if these really gain momentum and start replacing a lot of ASE's over the next few years, will the mint stop polishing the dies becasue there are just too many being produced? And thus will the chances fo future years producing PL and DMPL decline even though production might continue to go up? >>
Since they are bullion, and since they are making a numismatic version, the mint may not care what designation the coins receive.
I have hundreds of ms ase bullion and have never seen anything close to pl. The process for these coins are more frosty or matte looking. Due to this you will not see the pl effect on these coins.
I think part of that depends upon the answer to the question about what causes the mint to spit out a DMPL coin.
I'll let someone else answer. >>
PEACE! This is the first day of the rest of your life.
<< <i>How do the APs explain selling these on ebay almost 3 months after they got them from the mint? I thought these had to be distributed in a timely manner? >>
"Timely manner" reminds me of "speedy trial" , which reminds me of the Langbord case, and that makes me want to buy some 90% junk American pre '64 silver coins on the dip.
in this day and age, any silver is better than no silver
<< <i>Demand still strong. Jack Hunt is up over 2500 orders without much publicity. >>
Provide a mode of buying that is decent and sales come right on in. Yes demand is still strong for sure. What will drive 2011 will be at what premium the pucks come in relative to ASE's. Equal or below ASE's. They will be gone in a heart beat.
<< <i>Demand still strong. Jack Hunt is up over 2500 orders without much publicity. >>
I just wish all the AP's would finish selling so a market can develop minus the random influx of thousands of sets....
I just have the feeling that the way these were dripped out will keep the prices down for quite a while. Everyone who wanted a set should have been able to get a set at issue price so it will only be new collectors that will need a set
If ALL the sets were released at the same time dealers would have scooped up most of the sets and collectors would have had to scramble to get sets and the market would have skyrocketed....
I guess it's better the way it worked out...no excuses if you didn't get a set.
I still think it was/is dumb to buy a raw set on Ebay over issue price though....Graded pieces will do fine......
<< <i> This is the first bullion I have purchased. So do the bullion version ASE's ever show the mirrored fields? >>
The early ASE's had a completely different finish and they resembled the reflective finish on the pucks. I just went through an early roll and there are surfaces that would equal a puck PL/DM...The pucks are huge so the reflections are exaggerated a bit
I would be interesting to submit some of those coins to see if the criteria has changed with that issue also....
<< <i>We have to realize and accept the risk that silver prices could again crash and stay low for decades. >>
I will never accept that. You are comparing what the Hunt brothers did to a totally dif market 30 years later. I agree it can and will go down but never like it did then.
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Comments
It wasn't a fair deal. It was a scam setup from the beginning. Now it's out in the open and the sets are selling at just over spot. Kinda makes you wonder what the market REALLY is for these pucks.
This IS the justification for GETTING RID of the Authorized Distributor Network.
I knew it would happen.
I feel the real value will be the scarcity of these compared to future mintage's.
Once these are all distributed and the 2011's are out there everyone is going to want the 2010's.
Box of 20
<< <i>How do the APs explain selling these on ebay almost 3 months after they got them from the mint? I thought these had to be distributed in a timely manner? >>
They will just say that they did not have a system in place to handle selling the coins the way the mint wanted them to. That's all.
<< <i>I love this. It's a perfect illustration of the market manipulation that happened on the front end by the APs and a SELECT FEW underhanded dealers with inside connections to the APs.
It wasn't a fair deal. It was a scam setup from the beginning. Now it's out in the open and the sets are selling at just over spot. Kinda makes you wonder what the market REALLY is for these pucks.
This IS the justification for GETTING RID of the Authorized Distributor Network. >>
There still is not a 'free market' for these sets. MTB is selling this at a Gov't set price, not market price. This flood of pucks at below market prices is what is killing the price. The price will go back up. Generic ASE's are selling for $6 an ounce over spot - that would place these at $1100. It is not a stretch to add a couple of hundred a set for a premium at you are at the $1300/set that they were going for before the latest AP dump
<< <i>I love this. It's a perfect illustration of the market manipulation that happened on the front end by the APs and a SELECT FEW underhanded dealers with inside connections to the APs.
It wasn't a fair deal. It was a scam setup from the beginning. Now it's out in the open and the sets are selling at just over spot. Kinda makes you wonder what the market REALLY is for these pucks.
This IS the justification for GETTING RID of the Authorized Distributor Network. >>
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
<< <i>
<< <i>I love this. It's a perfect illustration of the market manipulation that happened on the front end by the APs and a SELECT FEW underhanded dealers with inside connections to the APs.
It wasn't a fair deal. It was a scam setup from the beginning. Now it's out in the open and the sets are selling at just over spot. Kinda makes you wonder what the market REALLY is for these pucks.
This IS the justification for GETTING RID of the Authorized Distributor Network. >>
There is no freaking way I am paying $1025 for an MTB set when MTB sold before for $930 and the price hike is because of ebay fees. The mint selling via ebay is not a good idea.
Or are you pulling my lariat?
<< <i>MTB sold 400 sets in 40 hours (that's including middle of the night). demand still looks strong to me. >>
Flipping demand!
<< <i>I love this. It's a perfect illustration of the market manipulation that happened on the front end by the APs and a SELECT FEW underhanded dealers with inside connections to the APs.
It wasn't a fair deal. It was a scam setup from the beginning. Now it's out in the open and the sets are selling at just over spot. Kinda makes you wonder what the market REALLY is for these pucks.
This IS the justification for GETTING RID of the Authorized Distributor Network. >>
I agree...the AP sales over the last few months certainly looked like a conscious metering effort to me. The metering having the effect of keeping the secondary price artificially high.
Now that the Mint has the certification process, we're finally seeing real sales. Four APs selling around the same time? That was unheard of two months ago!
MTB and Jack Hunt sales over the last few days have been strong. It's silver at a fantastic price.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I'd have to agree with you on that. A free market would imply that the supply hasn't been bottlenecked down to only 9 outlets or that only a few dealers are able to get their hands on the sets inititally, or that the supply is carefully metered out in a trickle so that the secondary prices can go through the roof while the select few can unload their inventory.
MTB is selling this at a Gov't set price, not market price.
If that's your reason for not calling it a free market, I'd say that you are missing 98% of the big picture. If the Govt didn't set a price comparable to bullion pricing, the baseline price would have been $1,395.00 instead of $860.00 - and the gouging would have been 100X worse. That's not a free market by any definition. The whole program was to be a ****bullion**** program, not an exclusive dealer offering.
This flood of pucks at below market prices is what is killing the price.
And that's how it should have been in the FIRST PLACE. Not for the select few to make a fortune because of some special status.
The price will go back up.
Maybe so. Maybe so. But it'll be the market that makes it happen if it does go back up. Interesting concept, eh?
Generic ASE's are selling for $6 an ounce over spot - that would place these at $1100. It is not a stretch to add a couple of hundred a set for a premium at you are at the $1300/set that they were going for before the latest AP dump
When Apmex offered their sets at $1,395.00 the price of silver was around $29.00/oz. If my math is correct, their premium was $1,395/$725 = 92% at the time.
Apmex currently sells Silver Eagles at markups starting at $4.19/oz., which is closer to 11.2% (for a green monster box) and for individual coins as low as 15.6% (for 2010s). Your $6.00 premium is fiction.
Again, if my math comprehension is anywhere near correct, 92% is not nearly the same as 11.2% or even 15.6%.
The AP's were obligated to follow the rules of their distribution agreements in keeping their pucks in-line with bullion pricing. Apmex didn't do that. They violated their agreement. So, would you rather have distribution by the rules or by no rules? The free market will take care of itself, but there is no reason on Earth to give free reign to a select few in order to let them gouge the crap out of everyone else.
Agree? No?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>This is the bubble busting right here.
Anyone who does not see it is blind.
All of us who now have the ATBs better be in love with them for what they are.
They have nowhere to go but down.
Sorry. I love mine but now realize they are mine for quite a while. Years and years or more.
This is fun! >>
Are you predicting a fall in the price of silver? That's the only way the bubble can burst. Buying silver at dimes above spot is about the best you can do. >>
Yes. Having lived through the 1981 market manipulation where many people who bought at spot suffered tremendous losses when spot price crashed and subsequently stayed far below it's then record spot price for decades! Decades!
All markets have manipulators including this one. We don't even know what most of them are. I hope silver and the PMs continue their ride but with hedge funds, high speed high frequency trading, large multimillion $ orders being placed and then cancelled a millisecond later etc I think we can be whipsawed again. This goes for all financial markets. A lot of big hedge funds have gotten into big bets on PMs in the last few years. Suppose they decide to sell or otherwise short this market, they easily can turn any financial market today.
I love the ATBs. But think for a moment if your feelings about buying them today "at pennies above spot" would feel different or less enthusiastic if spot does down to $16 as it was a year ago. Yeah I know...great buying opportunity but you could be underwater on these for a long long time. They are selling at basically spot now. Also, after big drops in price, many stay away from the market for a long time just like the average Joe with the stock market now after that big crash. Bottom line is
nobody, especially me knows for sure where silver spot will be in the future. Everyone feels good when the tide raises all boats.
We have to realize and accept the risk that silver prices could again crash and stay low for decades.
<< <i>
<< <i>I love this. It's a perfect illustration of the market manipulation that happened on the front end by the APs and a SELECT FEW underhanded dealers with inside connections to the APs.
It wasn't a fair deal. It was a scam setup from the beginning. Now it's out in the open and the sets are selling at just over spot. Kinda makes you wonder what the market REALLY is for these pucks.
This IS the justification for GETTING RID of the Authorized Distributor Network. >>
I agree...the AP sales over the last few months certainly looked like a conscious metering effort to me. The metering having the effect of keeping the secondary price artificially high.
Now that the Mint has the certification process, we're finally seeing real sales. Four APs selling around the same time? That was unheard of two months ago!
MTB and Jack Hunt sales over the last few days have been strong. It's silver at a fantastic price. >>
I think it called collusion.
I don't think collusion is what's happening.
I think it's just a case of FUBAR, start to finish.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This is the bubble busting right here.
Anyone who does not see it is blind.
All of us who now have the ATBs better be in love with them for what they are.
They have nowhere to go but down.
Sorry. I love mine but now realize they are mine for quite a while. Years and years or more.
This is fun! >>
Are you predicting a fall in the price of silver? That's the only way the bubble can burst. Buying silver at dimes above spot is about the best you can do. >>
Yes. Having lived through the 1981 market manipulation where many people who bought at spot suffered tremendous losses when spot price crashed and subsequently stayed far below it's then record spot price for decades! Decades!
All markets have manipulators including this one. We don't even know what most of them are. I hope silver and the PMs continue their ride but with hedge funds, high speed high frequency trading, large multimillion $ orders being placed and then cancelled a millisecond later etc I think we can be whipsawed again. This goes for all financial markets. A lot of big hedge funds have gotten into big bets on PMs in the last few years. Suppose they decide to sell or otherwise short this market, they easily can turn any financial market today.
I love the ATBs. But think for a moment if your feelings about buying them today "at pennies above spot" would feel different or less enthusiastic if spot does down to $16 as it was a year ago. Yeah I know...great buying opportunity but you could be underwater on these for a long long time. They are selling at basically spot now. Also, after big drops in price, many stay away from the market for a long time just like the average Joe with the stock market now after that big crash. Bottom line is
nobody, especially me knows for sure where silver spot will be in the future. Everyone feels good when the tide raises all boats.
We have to realize and accept the risk that silver prices could again crash and stay low for decades. >>
I think the point is that IF you are planning to buy silver why not buy these if you can get them near spot..better price than ASE's....not reallyas much to do with the issue but rather the intrinsic value..
Again, who knows.
I have a hard time accurately predicting the past never mind the future.
<< <i>The point is buying at peak here.
Again, who knows.
I have a hard time accurately predicting the past never mind the future. >>
There's risk with everything. Houses, stocks, silver, gold. There's winners and losers, lucky and not lucky, that's the way it goes.
If you think prices are coming down, sit on the side lines, if you think they are going up, buy. Nobody knows for sure.
Most people here are playing with the houses money, as they have sold enough to own a set or two for free.
Thus there is NO down side, as they will not lose money. They might not make as much, but will not lose.
<< <i>Yes. Having lived through the 1981 market manipulation where many people who bought at spot suffered tremendous losses when spot price crashed and subsequently stayed far below it's then record spot price for decades! Decades!
All markets have manipulators including this one. We don't even know what most of them are. I hope silver and the PMs continue their ride but with hedge funds, high speed high frequency trading, large multimillion $ orders being placed and then cancelled a millisecond later etc I think we can be whipsawed again. This goes for all financial markets. A lot of big hedge funds have gotten into big bets on PMs in the last few years. Suppose they decide to sell or otherwise short this market, they easily can turn any financial market today.
I love the ATBs. But think for a moment if your feelings about buying them today "at pennies above spot" would feel different or less enthusiastic if spot does down to $16 as it was a year ago. Yeah I know...great buying opportunity but you could be underwater on these for a long long time. They are selling at basically spot now. Also, after big drops in price, many stay away from the market for a long time just like the average Joe with the stock market now after that big crash. Bottom line is
nobody, especially me knows for sure where silver spot will be in the future. Everyone feels good when the tide raises all boats.
We have to realize and accept the risk that silver prices could again crash and stay low for decades. >>
Then you are referring to a silver bubble bursting, not an ATB-bubble. This is a discussion more appropraite for the PM forum, not for the ATB thread in the US coin forum.
Even if Silver were to plummet down to $20 next week, we'd still be buying these at the Mint's regulated price and they'd still be selling for around how much they are. But I do feel that if Silver PM were to fall and make the 2011 ATB Coins a lot more accessable to the masses on a budget, we'll see a LOT more people being aware that these coins exist and a LOT more interest and new collectors of them. The demand for the 2010's will just go up. I for one would like to see the PM of silver drop drastically to make it easier for me to collect the rest of the set as the years go by.
<< <i>I have just one set from FT - they look like nice coins - I have not yet pulled them from their bubble bags. But the real value in these IMHO is long term, and perhaps a component of the value will be bullion. >>
My one set that I kept was FT. My first concern was rim damage and so inspected them through the bubble wrap and they looked great. I decided at that point to leave them in the bubble wrap until I received my Air-Tites. Someone on another forum talked me into opening them saying that the bubble wrap hide any sign of mirrored fields. So I opened them...very nice coins turned into amazing coins with some outstanding mirrors...at least 3 PL one of which is most likely DMPL - IMHO. You may be in for a nice bonus once you open the bubblewrap!
I am still keeping my set raw, not sure why. I just like them that way and I currently have no money into my keeper set, having sold two of my three sets at just enough profit to cover all three.
<< <i>
I am still keeping my set raw, not sure why. I just like them that way and I currently have no money into my keeper set, having sold two of my three sets at just enough profit to cover all three. >>
I understand the allure of grading, but the set I keep will be raw as well!
<< <i>
<< <i>
I am still keeping my set raw, not sure why. I just like them that way and I currently have no money into my keeper set, having sold two of my three sets at just enough profit to cover all three. >>
I understand the allure of grading, but the set I keep will be raw as well! >>
Same here. I'm going to grade my coins so I can sell them at a higher premium (ALL my coins so far look to be 68+ grades). But I'm going ot cherry pick through them and keep the best looking set and keep them ungraded. I personally do NOT like coins in a slab. Its horrible for presentation and display. I hope one day PCGS comes out with alternative slabs that I can display my coins in while still being slabbed. Like I mentioned in a post earlier, I want a circular slab that's maybe an inch bigger in circumference with the details of its grading in a circular on an outer ring maybe a 1/4 of an Inch away from the coin and the outer edge. Or even a Triangular slab where the coin rests in the center and the grading details are on the 3 corners.
I just can't see a way to display them in a nice way in the slabs!
They will always be worth .25 cents.
Jack Hunt #2020 something now.
We've all been buying these ATB coins for its Numismatic Collectibility and its resale value. The PM of Silver has had little to do with it.
That's not the case for everyone. The offering price was absolutely the determining factor for me.
Even if Silver were to plummet down to $20 next week, we'd still be buying these at the Mint's regulated price and they'd still be selling for around how much they are.
I would tend to disagree with that assumption as well. I don't think anyone knows how the market for pucks would act if silver goes to $20/oz. I don't think that the current pricing would survive. Not even close.
we'll see a LOT more people being aware that these coins exist and a LOT more interest and new collectors of them.
The economy might have alot to say about how many new collectors for pucks come online in 2011. If silver drops and the buyers who paid big premiums for the privilege of owning pucks in 2010 at high premiums start losing money on their investments, they might not be so hot to start slapping down a grand or more for a set in 2011.
We don't know what the market for the pucks is yet. Maybe it'll be large, maybe it won't.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>If you send your AMark Choice BU First Strike slabs in for grading, do they keep their First Strike status?
We've all been buying these ATB coins for its Numismatic Collectibility and its resale value. The PM of Silver has had little to do with it.
That's not the case for everyone. The offering price was absolutely the determining factor for me.
Even if Silver were to plummet down to $20 next week, we'd still be buying these at the Mint's regulated price and they'd still be selling for around how much they are.
I would tend to disagree with that assumption as well. I don't think anyone knows how the market for pucks would act if silver goes to $20/oz. I don't think that the current pricing would survive. Not even close.
we'll see a LOT more people being aware that these coins exist and a LOT more interest and new collectors of them.
The economy might have alot to say about how many new collectors for pucks come online in 2011. If silver drops and the buyers who paid big premiums for the privilege of owning pucks in 2010 at high premiums start losing money on their investments, they might not be so hot to start slapping down a grand or more for a set in 2011.
We don't know what the market for the pucks is yet. Maybe it'll be large, maybe it won't. >>
Hehe. You have some interesting points. I guess what it comes down to is... either you really like the ATB coins for what they are and you enjoy them, or you're in it to try to make some money. If you're in it because you enjoy the coins, you cant lose. If you're in it for the money, then you're taking a gamble.
I try real hard not to gamble with real dollars unless I'm in Vegas or at a casino and gambling for recreation. I am taking a shine to the pucks, but I also like to think that I'm in them for some money. If I'd bought them at $1,395.00/set - that would have been gambling.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>If I'd bought them at $1,395.00/set - that would have been gambling. >>
Not if you sold that set for $2850
Loves me some shiny!
<< <i>We've all been buying these ATB coins for its Numismatic Collectibility and its resale value. The PM of Silver has had little to do with it. >>
No....I have been buying these instead of my normal yearly allotment of ASE's.....If someone wants to offer me more than the silver content is worth then so be it....
This is the first bullion I have purchased. So do the bullion version ASE's ever show the mirrored fields? I assume most dealers would cherry pick those and your only chance would be a monster box...? Will any die produce mirrored coins through the initial strikes?
If not, then the question would be, if these really gain momentum and start replacing a lot of ASE's over the next few years, will the mint stop polishing the dies becasue there are just too many being produced? And thus will the chances fo future years producing PL and DMPL decline even though production might continue to go up?
Okay, I guess that ended up not being tto far off topic...
<< <i>Generic ASE's are selling for $6 an ounce over spot - that would place these at $1100. It is not a stretch to add a couple of hundred a set for a premium at you are at the $1300/set that they were going for before the latest AP dump
When Apmex offered their sets at $1,395.00 the price of silver was around $29.00/oz. If my math is correct, their premium was $1,395/$725 = 92% at the time.
Apmex currently sells Silver Eagles at markups starting at $4.19/oz., which is closer to 11.2% (for a green monster box) and for individual coins as low as 15.6% (for 2010s). Your $6.00 premium is fiction.
Again, if my math comprehension is anywhere near correct, 92% is not nearly the same as 11.2% or even 15.6%.
The AP's were obligated to follow the rules of their distribution agreements in keeping their pucks in-line with bullion pricing. Apmex didn't do that. They violated their agreement. So, would you rather have distribution by the rules or by no rules? The free market will take care of itself, but there is no reason on Earth to give free reign to a select few in order to let them gouge the crap out of everyone else.
Agree? No? >>
The $6 premium was relating to eBay ASE sales, not from the AP. Apmex wasn't the only AP not following the rules - they were just dumb enough to sell to the general public. But for that error, these would have gone out through the AP's distribution network and the first chance a 'consumer' would have had to buy them would have been well north of the $1395 price. The Mint would not been able to do anything about it at that point. Of course, the sets would have been on the market all at once instead of this 4 month drip that has prevent a market to be established.
I do wonder if these had been sold the 'normal' way, would the DM/PL issue every have come up?
<< <i>
This is the first bullion I have purchased. So do the bullion version ASE's ever show the mirrored fields? I assume most dealers would cherry pick those and your only chance would be a monster box...? Will any die produce mirrored coins through the initial strikes?
Okay, I guess that ended up not being tto far off topic... >>
Actually, I wouldn't call it off topic as it does relate to desirability of the ATBs vs. ASEs. (in the part I cut out)
I'll answer the first part first.
I'm relatively new too but I've never heard of PL or DMPL bullion ASEs.
Not all dealers cherrypick, but there are some that do sell both graded and ungraded ASEs in large numbers. I suspect they cherrypick. One or two examples I suspect would be APMEX and Gainesville Coins.
<< <i>I do wonder if these had been sold the 'normal' way, would the DM/PL issue every have come up? >>
Well, we do know that for PCGS, the PL/DM grading was lobbied for. I think NGC is more proactive about using the PL designation.
<< <i>Will any die produce mirrored coins through the initial strikes? >>
That is a good question to ask in a new thread.
What is it about the die and striking process that yields DMPL, PL and MS coins?
<< <i>If not, then the question would be, if these really gain momentum and start replacing a lot of ASE's over the next few years, will the mint stop polishing the dies becasue there are just too many being produced? And thus will the chances fo future years producing PL and DMPL decline even though production might continue to go up? >>
Since they are bullion, and since they are making a numismatic version, the mint may not care what designation the coins receive.
If I read you correctly, you are worried that the mint may not put the care into the die making process to coin DMPLs in the future, esp. if they start making a lot of them?
I think part of that depends upon the answer to the question about what causes the mint to spit out a DMPL coin.
I'll let someone else answer.
<< <i>
<< <i>If not, then the question would be, if these really gain momentum and start replacing a lot of ASE's over the next few years, will the mint stop polishing the dies becasue there are just too many being produced? And thus will the chances fo future years producing PL and DMPL decline even though production might continue to go up? >>
Since they are bullion, and since they are making a numismatic version, the mint may not care what designation the coins receive.
I have hundreds of ms ase bullion and have never seen anything close to pl. The process for these coins are more frosty or matte looking. Due to this you will not see the pl effect on these coins.
I think part of that depends upon the answer to the question about what causes the mint to spit out a DMPL coin.
I'll let someone else answer. >>
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
Weren't the first one's struck and handled differently then the one's that are selling now ?
<< <i>How do the APs explain selling these on ebay almost 3 months after they got them from the mint? I thought these had to be distributed in a timely manner? >>
"Timely manner" reminds me of "speedy trial" , which reminds me of the Langbord case, and that makes me want to buy some 90% junk American pre '64 silver coins on the dip.
in this day and age, any silver is better than no silver
<< <i>
<< <i>Which set has the best "quality" coins or is it a crap shoot? >>
4 outta 5 of my 1st MTB set graded MS69PL... from the "other" grading co. >>
I got (1) 69 from MTB the rest were 67 and 68 my worst set from 4 AP`S but could just been a bad set but others were 3 and 4 out of 5 that graded 69.
Jack Hunt is up over 2500 orders without much publicity.
<< <i>Demand still strong.
Jack Hunt is up over 2500 orders without much publicity. >>
Provide a mode of buying that is decent and sales come right on in. Yes demand is still strong for sure. What will drive 2011 will be at what premium the pucks come in relative to ASE's. Equal or below ASE's. They will be gone in a heart beat.
Box of 20
<< <i>Demand still strong. >>
It's admitted and well documented here. The flippers just can't get enough!
<< <i>Demand still strong.
Jack Hunt is up over 2500 orders without much publicity. >>
I just wish all the AP's would finish selling so a market can develop minus the random influx of thousands of sets....
I just have the feeling that the way these were dripped out will keep the prices down for quite a while. Everyone who wanted a set should have been able to get a set at issue price so it will only be new collectors that will need a set
If ALL the sets were released at the same time dealers would have scooped up most of the sets and collectors would have had to scramble to get sets and the market would have skyrocketed....
I guess it's better the way it worked out...no excuses if you didn't get a set.
I still think it was/is dumb to buy a raw set on Ebay over issue price though....Graded pieces will do fine......
They will make sure that what they have sold is a done deal and then put what they have left up for sale I am sure. They just want to be done
with these coins at this point so they can get on with the sales of the 2011's which they can sell like they normally do in bulk and not have to
be bothered with one to a customer. This has been a pain in the a$$ to them and they all just want it over with so they can just go on with
how they normally do business. They are not set up to sell this way.
<< <i> This is the first bullion I have purchased. So do the bullion version ASE's ever show the mirrored fields? >>
The early ASE's had a completely different finish and they resembled the reflective finish on the pucks. I just went through an early roll and there are surfaces that would equal a puck PL/DM...The pucks are huge so the reflections are exaggerated a bit
I would be interesting to submit some of those coins to see if the criteria has changed with that issue also....
I would ask PCGS before I did that though just to CYA.
<< <i>We have to realize and accept the risk that silver prices could again crash and stay low for decades. >>
I will never accept that. You are comparing what the Hunt brothers did to a totally dif market 30 years later. I agree it can and will go down but never like it did then.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.