> Subject: America the Beautiful > > Hello Mr. Peters, > > I regret to inform you that all orders have been suspended due the > decision of the US Mint. Last week they notified dealers that all orders > will be accepted December 6 and would ship by December 10. This status > has changed until further notice. We placed an order of 500 sets all of > which we sold on an advance order status. If in fact the US Mint does > accept the orders at the announced price, then your order will be > fulfilled in a timely manner. If they do not then our 500 set order will > not be accepted and obviously we cannot fulfill. > > So at this time, all advanced orders are on hold, but remain in place, > and we await the US Mint decision. If you gave a credit card number do > not worry, the invoice has not been confirmed and no charges or holds > have been placed on your card. > > Best regards, > Adam Crum > Vice President
<< <i>Here is Monaco Unique Coins' status letter....
> Subject: America the Beautiful > > Hello Mr. Peters, > > I regret to inform you that all orders have been suspended due the > decision of the US Mint. Last week they notified dealers that all orders > will be accepted December 6 and would ship by December 10. This status > has changed until further notice. We placed an order of 500 sets all of > which we sold on an advance order status. If in fact the US Mint does > accept the orders at the announced price, then your order will be > fulfilled in a timely manner. If they do not then our 500 set order will > not be accepted and obviously we cannot fulfill. > > So at this time, all advanced orders are on hold, but remain in place, > and we await the US Mint decision. If you gave a credit card number do > not worry, the invoice has not been confirmed and no charges or holds > have been placed on your card. > > Best regards, > Adam Crum > Vice President >>
That letter is kind of interesting. It doesn't say they placed an order with an AP and are waiting for the AP to accept the order. It kinda sounds like they placed an order with the Mint.
<< <i>That letter is kind of interesting. It doesn't say they placed an order with an AP and are waiting for the AP to accept the order. It kinda sounds like they placed an order with the Mint. >>
Same thought here.....
Hmmmmmmm......
Special bullion sales to dealers.......
So APMEX might have been purchasing as a dealer and THEN setting their price
Like ever other coin ever bought from the Mint by all dealers.....
...so remind me what is wrong with that???
Mr. Cynic is peaking out from behind the couch.....
<< <i>That letter is kind of interesting. It doesn't say they placed an order with an AP and are waiting for the AP to accept the order. It kinda sounds like they placed an order with the Mint. >>
Same thought here.....
Hmmmmmmm......
Special bullion sales to dealers.......
So APMEX might have been purchasing as a dealer and THEN setting their price
Like ever other coin ever bought from the Mint by all dealers.....
...so remind me what is wrong with that???
Mr. Cynic is peaking out from behind the couch..... >>
just because others can be greedy does not mean that greed, for lack of a better word, is good.
these were supposed to be bullion sold at bullion prices. the root complaint is with the markup over bullion.
Now everyone wants a piece of the gravy train and are willing to sell out whoever to get in on it.
I'm not so sure a real market for these has been established.
ok, you get 3,300 sets of these at bullion. You're going crazy looking at the demand. dealers are willing to pay $1575(?) a set? Why take the time and trouble of going through everyone moron calling with their credit card number? Just sell to the dealers.
They were being nice and selling direct to the public?
I'd like to say that APMEX sold 1,000 sets in 19 hours.
Why didn't the run of the mill dealers clean them out? The average was less than 3 per order.
Where were the OTHER dealers looking to get in on these at $1400?
There are over 300 dealers in the usa. With such a discount under $1575, why wouldn't a dealer just load the boat and flip them?
Because they don't know if they can sell them for more!
If it was such a sure thing, the dealers would have been all over that APMEX offer like white on rice.
It's not a sure thing. If they attempt to price gouge again, I think they will have booming sales, but a short time later sales will fall off and prices will fall off.
I'm thinking the crazier the prices, the better it is to wait out the in intial "panic."
There may be dealers at $1575, but it doesn't look like it is that many by the sales at $1395.
They have 33,000 sets to sell and then 27,000 numismatic sets to sell and I am guessing that each dealer is not planning on "saving" 100 sets for their own personal stash.
Some of the dealer demand is also surely from the same people calling 10 places and leaving their name with each.
What is the real demand? Assuming the price is $200, are there 33,000 people ready to drop $1,000 a set???
<< <i>I'd like to say that APMEX sold 1,000 sets in 19 hours.
Why didn't the run of the mill dealers clean them out? The average was less than 3 per order.
Where were the OTHER dealers looking to get in on these at $1400?
There are over 300 dealers in the usa. With such a discount under $1575, why wouldn't a dealer just load the boat and flip them?
Because they don't know if they can sell them for more!
If it was such a sure thing, the dealers would have been all over that APMEX offer like white on rice.
It's not a sure thing. If they attempt to price gouge again, I think they will have booming sales, but a short time later sales will fall off and prices will fall off.
I'm thinking the crazier the prices, the better it is to wait out the in intial "panic."
There may be dealers at $1575, but it doesn't look like it is that many by the sales at $1395.
They have 33,000 sets to sell and then 27,000 numismatic sets to sell and I am guessing that each dealer is not planning on "saving" 100 sets for their own personal stash.
Some of the dealer demand is also surely from the same people calling 10 places and leaving their name with each.
What is the real demand? Assuming the price is $200, are there 33,000 people ready to drop $1,000 a set??? >>
Excellent point(s). I debated with myself over the weekend before finally buying two sets for myself from APMEX at the $1395 price, but only because they seemed to be selling fast. I thought it was too much money, but figured that the potential loss wouldn't kill me.
If these were worth a lot more than that, it was not apparent to me at the time. I would not have bought any for resale at that cost to us.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i> What is the real demand? Assuming the price is $200, are there 33,000 people ready to drop $1,000 a set??? >>
Do you think the "300 dealers" in the USA will all get just one from the Mint??
Do you think MCM, Gainsville etc. haven't got this "one per household" thingy down pat yet???
Let's see....they are "selling" for WELL over 2 grand (closer to 3 grand) a set.
The Mint offers you one at $1000.....
No brainer website crashing sellout in a couple of hours only limited by whether the site can keep from crashing and worse if they sell single coins only.
I talked to the Mint about a return, and asked if they had any info about the 5 oz bullions, she said she had no info because they were not selling them.
The reason for the 3 coin average, I think, was because the cost of 3 sets was under $5000. This allowed you to put the purchase on your credit card. Otherwise you HAD to select the Wire Transfer button. You could call, and I guess they'd allow more that $5000 in the CC, but on Saturday, they were not answering the phone.
What is the real demand? Assuming the price is $200, are there 33,000 people ready to drop $1,000 a set??? >>
I think the demand will hold up if the Mint changes the specifications in 2011. If they go to the more universal 2-3/4" diameter and remove the edge inscription, that would make the 2010 coins quite unique. I think there is great appeal in owning a type coin of low mintage that the Mint will likely never produce again. The problem is we don't have a crystal ball so we don't know what the Mint is planning to do for the 2011 coins.
Almost nobody outside of the mint has actually seen these so they may be better or worse than we think. Sort of like the gold buffalo coins, once people saw those they wanted more. other coins like the spouses they wanted less.
<< <i>Do you think MCM, Gainsville etc. haven't got this "one per household" thingy down pat yet??? >>
one point at a time.
one per household?
who instituted one per household?
Down yet?
How can you even ask that? APMEX let people buy as many as they wanted. Their average was over 2 per order. So I am not sure of your point here. Please explain.
No brainer website crashing sellout in a couple of hours only limited by whether the site can keep from crashing and worse if they sell single coins only.
The same will happen with the "P" mint pucks... >>
So you are willing to pay $1395 at APMEX for a web site that doesn't hang you up for 5 hours solid, instead of $1000 for a set with some ordering headaches?
I'll take the order headaches.
Anyway, these won't go on the website unless the law changes.
<< <i>I talked to the Mint about a return, and asked if they had any info about the 5 oz bullions, she said she had no info because they were not selling them.
The reason for the 3 coin average, I think, was because the cost of 3 sets was under $5000. This allowed you to put the purchase on your credit card. Otherwise you HAD to select the Wire Transfer button. You could call, and I guess they'd allow more that $5000 in the CC, but on Saturday, they were not answering the phone. >>
APMEX takes more than wires and CC. They take cashier's checks and money orders, even.
<< <i>Just wait until the Mint holds these for sale into next year and offers both these and the "numismatic" versions at slightly over face!!! >>
"Face" is 25 cents
But seriously, do you really think they will be priced "slightly" over spot????
The Mint is incompetent but they are not stupid.... >>
The info going around from the mint was spot + $9.75 per coin.
the mint has in house profit margin targets, plus they hedge silver. This info is in their annual reports. They have their numismatic markups, but that includes packaging and marketing and a lot of stuff. This was bullion. They are not going to get on the gravy train.
It was the mint who retracted the sales. do you think they did this because of they were selling too low, or was it for the reason in the press: the AP prices were too high.
The mint is interested in a reasonable price on these and that is why they halted sales.
<< <i>are there 33,000 people ready to drop $1,000 a set >>
I assumed that to be one per person (my math might be off)
<< <i> Do you think MCM, Gainsville etc. haven't got this "one per household" thingy down pat yet??? >>
When the 2006 20th ASE's came out there was a 10 per household limit. MCM had MANY 10 set unopened boxes for sale shortly after issue (I bought some). They all have their process of getting as many as they want from the Mint. That is what I meant.
<< <i>Also, with even APMEX placing things on hold, do not tell me that these few eBay sales constitute a market. There is no product flow, there is no real marke >>
I said in a previous post that APMEX and others had ATTEMPTED to create a market by DEVELOPING a base from which prices could evolve (up or down) but that was thwarted by the calls to the Mint legal department etc. I agree there can be no true market until items can actually be delivered for a price. This present market, for lack of a better term, is false but it is all that exists until the coins appear.
<< <i>Those are clowns who are taking advantage of the "panic." They aren't sales if the allocation doesn't come. >>
You may call them what you wish but if they get their coins as ordered they will make thousands. The risk/reward is huge on the reward side. I will add I do not agree with the practice but it's been done before and will be done again.
There really is an easy fix...if enough Congressmen and Senators read the same bashing stuff in the papers you all read...it's not really that difficult to change the date in the legislation and let the Mint strike 2010's to order for 3 more months. It's not like they're really circulating coinage. Then you'll find out exactly how many people really want them.
<< <i> The mint is interested in a reasonable price on these and that is why they halted sales. >>
This is the part that gets me going.....Do you REALLY think the Mint should have ANY say in what dealers charge for their products???
Yes they are pissed that APMEX acted as a dealer AND an AP so deal with that. AP's probably shouldn't be able to deal with the normal consumer directly. It's kind of a built in conflict of interest....They are dealers but get the coins cheaper than the non-AP dealers.....
So what does the Mint do?? Charge the AP's more???? Since there are 11 or so AP's they will sell to the dealers and THEN the price will be established which will be much north of whatever price the Mint charges.
You mentioned 33,000 people buying a set for $1000......from who???? Dealers???? No.....MInt??? As you said that would take some legal work and law changing. Probably not worth the effort...
<< <i>There really is an easy fix...if enough Congressmen and Senators read the same bashing stuff in the papers you all read...it's not really that difficult to change the date in the legislation and let the Mint strike 2010's to order for 3 more months. It's not like they're really circulating coinage. Then you'll find out exactly how many people really want them. >>
Maybe they can drop all discussion of the tax bill in the last few days of the lame duck session to make this important change.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i> APMEX takes more than wires and CC. They take cashier's checks and money orders, even. >>
They also take personal checks. My check for 3 sets was mailed Sat, received by APMEX Monday, and cleared my bank Tuesday. I knew I would have to wait on delivery anyway, so it was easier to send a check.
<<This is the part that gets me going.....Do you REALLY think the Mint should have ANY say in what dealers charge for their products???>>
Actually, to be fair, the Mint HAS used the rationale of not wanting to create a rarity before: the case of the missing 2009 silver eagle proof being a prime example. Without sufficient blanks on hand to mint to demand, they didn't want to create an instant gem.
AND these were supposed to be available for some modest amount over spot...that was both in the letter and spirit of the enabling legislation.
Honestly, I think they expected the lackluster demand that a typical Mint MEDAL gets...and instead they ended up with a stampede. And to make matters worse, due to the unusual specs these things are likely very labor intensive...so now they're in a bind in regards to being able to strike up too many more in a limited time.
Sale of New Silver Coin Delayed . December 7, 2010
By ALEJANDRO J. MARTINEZ of the Wall Street Journal
The U.S. Mint said it is delaying the sale of 2010 "America the Beautiful" five-ounce silver coins due to concerns about the high prices and premiums that were to be charged for the bullion coins by its network of authorized purchasers.
A memo was sent to authorized purchasers at the end of the first day of sale on Monday.
"No orders were processed," said U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White.
Coin Update News, a blog for coin collectors, reported that one of the Mint's authorized purchasers, American Precious Metals Exchange Inc., began accepting orders over the weekend for complete five-coin sets priced at $1,395—$132 a coin, or $660 a set, above the market value of the silver content.
"We were anticipating this day for years," said Scott Thomas, president of Apmex, based in Oklahoma City, Okla., the largest online precious-metals dealer in terms of sales in the country. The firm was preparing a second offering when it got the news from the Mint. It said it hadn't heard from the Mint directly.
"How can you widely distribute 33,000 coins among millions of collectors who wish to buy these coins? We chose to offer some of our allocation to our customers at prices that were considerably lower than at what other dealers were selling them," said Mr. Thomas.
According to Mr. Thomas, APMEX performed price diligence by reviewing market conditions and comparing two similar products, a 2010 Chinese five-ounce Silver Panda with a mintage of 10,000 coins that sells for $425 and a 2010 Mexican Libertad five-ounce silver coin with an unlimited mintage that sells for $225. Based on this information, APMEX made the decision to set its price at $279 a coin.
The firm sold its first thousand coins in 380 transactions, which came to an average of 2.6 sets a customer, according to Mr. Thomas.
"They made the lowest number of coins in a 20th- or 21st-century series in a low-priced precious metal. What did they expect was going to happen," said David Ganz, a past president of the American Numismatic Association.
"Given the quantity of silver and price per ounce, it's not a big stretch to have someone completely corner the market on this," said Mr. Ganz.
Comex silver for December delivery set a second consecutive 2010 settlement high on Tuesday. The metal added 4.30 cents a troy ounce, or 0.14%, to $29.7480. Silver is now up 77% this year.
One last thought and then Mr. Cynic is banished to the cellar for the night:
If APMEX had NOT been an AP there would be ZERO issue with their pricing. As just a dealer, getting their product from the AP's like all dealers, collectors would have either bought it or not. It was the perceived injustice of being both an AP and a dealer that set some off.
So...limit mintage to 1/3 of announced and make it unique to the Mint product to be minted in even lower numbers .......let authorized purchasers sell at a price advantage to the public
<< <i>You mentioned 33,000 people buying a set for $1000......from who???? Dealers???? No.....MInt??? As you said that would take some legal work and law changing. Probably not worth the effort... >>
That was an example price.
for the sake of arguement, price them at $1,000 each set and 1 set per person. Are there 33,000 people willing to take the plunge?
If they made 200,000 each and forced them to take them with Eagle orders, as they have with past bullion, then we'd hear about them being dumped on them.
<< <i>So...limit mintage to 1/3 of announced and make it unique to the Mint product to be minted in even lower numbers .......let authorized purchasers sell at a price advantage to the public
The interesting twist.... is that the AP's may save thousands of FRN's and may have a chance to make more money, since the spot price of Ag has gone down since Monday!!!!!
And the USMint may spend a whole lot of additional FRN's paying government attorneys on advice...
What they need to do now is melt 3,000 bullion versions, mint a total 30,000 collector versions, package them in a two coin display boxes and sell them on the mint website as a collector pair, 10oz per set.
Those that complain that the dealers finding away around a per household limit, that is just the way it is. They may end up with ten orders or a hundred orders, if they have the network, but it will slow them down to the point that the rest of us have a chance.
<< <i>What they need to do now is melt 3,000 bullion versions, mint a total 30,000 collector versions, package them in a two coin display boxes and sell them on the mint website as a collector pair, 10oz per set.
Those that complain that the dealers finding away around a per household limit, that is just the way it is. They may end up with ten orders or a hundred orders, if they have the network, but it will slow them down to the point that the rest of us have a chance. >>
That is actually quite a good idea, though I'd rather see them just strike another 6,000 of the numismatic ones (if they have any planchets left).
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
From coin world: The 5 ounce silver coins are being struck during a Daily 8 hour shift at a rate of 22 coins per minute, exclusive of the press being down for any reason including changing dies..............Maybe start a second shift?
<< <i>Let's see....they are "selling" for WELL over 2 grand (closer to 3 grand) a set. >>
How many sold for that amount?
AND, the ONLY people that can guarantee an allocation right now are insiders.
Otherwise, don't tell me about "sales" that are pre-sales that can be cancelled if they don't get any.
Even APMEX, who we all know 100% without a doubt, can buy directly from the mint is in the dark.
So, is APMEX still selling? Today? Are those APMEX auctions?
Those are clowns who are taking advantage of the "panic." They aren't sales if the allocation doesn't come.
Also, with even APMEX placing things on hold, do not tell me that these few eBay sales constitute a market.
There is no product flow, there is no real market. >>
The More you Post, the More I like you!
This wave, which really DOESN'T EVEN EXIST yet, is just aching to break loose.
For this first round, there is always gonna be some sucker willing to mortgage his/her house to fund the purchase of these pieces only to flip em to some other sucker thats afraid to miss out on something "special".
However, once the water hits the sand and folks realize that these are specialty bullion items that are danged near unrelated to the ATB "coins", the scramble could get bloody trying to unload them.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
APMEX email me this today regarding my hockey puck order:
<< <i>We are pleased to inform you that your Money Order payment of $1,419.95 for order ####### has been received. We expect to ship your order within 3-5 business days of this e-mail. Your estimated shipdate is Dec 15 2010 If your order has items that were “Pre-Sold”, your order will be shipped in full once those items arrive. A final e-mail notification will be sent once your order is shipped.
You should have received an email from them prior to that stating the orders are on hold. This is only an email that they received your money order payment.
Comments
> Subject: America the Beautiful
>
> Hello Mr. Peters,
>
> I regret to inform you that all orders have been suspended due the
> decision of the US Mint. Last week they notified dealers that all orders
> will be accepted December 6 and would ship by December 10. This status
> has changed until further notice. We placed an order of 500 sets all of
> which we sold on an advance order status. If in fact the US Mint does
> accept the orders at the announced price, then your order will be
> fulfilled in a timely manner. If they do not then our 500 set order will
> not be accepted and obviously we cannot fulfill.
>
> So at this time, all advanced orders are on hold, but remain in place,
> and we await the US Mint decision. If you gave a credit card number do
> not worry, the invoice has not been confirmed and no charges or holds
> have been placed on your card.
>
> Best regards,
> Adam Crum
> Vice President
I can't help but wonder if these are being made available to dealers???
It'd be hard to believe that CaptHenway couldn't buy them direct if they were selling to dealers, also.
<< <i>Here is Monaco Unique Coins' status letter....
> Subject: America the Beautiful
>
> Hello Mr. Peters,
>
> I regret to inform you that all orders have been suspended due the
> decision of the US Mint. Last week they notified dealers that all orders
> will be accepted December 6 and would ship by December 10. This status
> has changed until further notice. We placed an order of 500 sets all of
> which we sold on an advance order status. If in fact the US Mint does
> accept the orders at the announced price, then your order will be
> fulfilled in a timely manner. If they do not then our 500 set order will
> not be accepted and obviously we cannot fulfill.
>
> So at this time, all advanced orders are on hold, but remain in place,
> and we await the US Mint decision. If you gave a credit card number do
> not worry, the invoice has not been confirmed and no charges or holds
> have been placed on your card.
>
> Best regards,
> Adam Crum
> Vice President >>
That letter is kind of interesting. It doesn't say they placed an order with an AP and are waiting for the AP to accept the order. It kinda sounds like they placed an order with the Mint.
i.e. skipping them and buying directly from APMEX.
<< <i>That letter is kind of interesting. It doesn't say they placed an order with an AP and are waiting for the AP to accept the order. It kinda sounds like they placed an order with the Mint. >>
Same thought here.....
Hmmmmmmm......
Special bullion sales to dealers.......
So APMEX might have been purchasing as a dealer and THEN setting their price
Like ever other coin ever bought from the Mint by all dealers.....
...so remind me what is wrong with that???
Mr. Cynic is peaking out from behind the couch.....
We were in dire danger of getting pushed onto page 2, so I figured we needed a post to bump us up!
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>
<< <i>That letter is kind of interesting. It doesn't say they placed an order with an AP and are waiting for the AP to accept the order. It kinda sounds like they placed an order with the Mint. >>
Same thought here.....
Hmmmmmmm......
Special bullion sales to dealers.......
So APMEX might have been purchasing as a dealer and THEN setting their price
Like ever other coin ever bought from the Mint by all dealers.....
...so remind me what is wrong with that???
Mr. Cynic is peaking out from behind the couch..... >>
Well, everyone is getting greedy and their eyes are filling with dollar signs.
just because others can be greedy does not mean that greed, for lack of a better word, is good.
these were supposed to be bullion sold at bullion prices. the root complaint is with the markup over bullion.
Now everyone wants a piece of the gravy train and are willing to sell out whoever to get in on it.
I'm not so sure a real market for these has been established.
ok, you get 3,300 sets of these at bullion. You're going crazy looking at the demand. dealers are willing to pay $1575(?) a set? Why take the time and trouble of going through everyone moron calling with their credit card number? Just sell to the dealers.
They were being nice and selling direct to the public?
Something smells like a sales pitch to me.
Why didn't the run of the mill dealers clean them out? The average was less than 3 per order.
Where were the OTHER dealers looking to get in on these at $1400?
There are over 300 dealers in the usa. With such a discount under $1575, why wouldn't a dealer just load the boat and flip them?
Because they don't know if they can sell them for more!
If it was such a sure thing, the dealers would have been all over that APMEX offer like white on rice.
It's not a sure thing. If they attempt to price gouge again, I think they will have booming sales, but a short time later sales will fall off and prices will fall off.
I'm thinking the crazier the prices, the better it is to wait out the in intial "panic."
There may be dealers at $1575, but it doesn't look like it is that many by the sales at $1395.
They have 33,000 sets to sell and then 27,000 numismatic sets to sell and I am guessing that each dealer is not planning on "saving" 100 sets for their own personal stash.
Some of the dealer demand is also surely from the same people calling 10 places and leaving their name with each.
What is the real demand? Assuming the price is $200, are there 33,000 people ready to drop $1,000 a set???
Imagine the jam up of the Mint's phone/e-mail/telegraph/fax/Morse Code lines then!!!
And I can just hear the screaming of all those who were "screwed" by the Mint when they pulled all those easy bucks out of their pockets!
So as someone who's been screwed plenty by the Mint over the years, I say "Welcome aboard!"
<< <i>I'd like to say that APMEX sold 1,000 sets in 19 hours.
Why didn't the run of the mill dealers clean them out? The average was less than 3 per order.
Where were the OTHER dealers looking to get in on these at $1400?
There are over 300 dealers in the usa. With such a discount under $1575, why wouldn't a dealer just load the boat and flip them?
Because they don't know if they can sell them for more!
If it was such a sure thing, the dealers would have been all over that APMEX offer like white on rice.
It's not a sure thing. If they attempt to price gouge again, I think they will have booming sales, but a short time later sales will fall off and prices will fall off.
I'm thinking the crazier the prices, the better it is to wait out the in intial "panic."
There may be dealers at $1575, but it doesn't look like it is that many by the sales at $1395.
They have 33,000 sets to sell and then 27,000 numismatic sets to sell and I am guessing that each dealer is not planning on "saving" 100 sets for their own personal stash.
Some of the dealer demand is also surely from the same people calling 10 places and leaving their name with each.
What is the real demand? Assuming the price is $200, are there 33,000 people ready to drop $1,000 a set??? >>
Excellent point(s). I debated with myself over the weekend before finally buying two sets for myself from APMEX at the $1395 price, but only because they seemed to be selling fast. I thought it was too much money, but figured that the potential loss wouldn't kill me.
If these were worth a lot more than that, it was not apparent to me at the time. I would not have bought any for resale at that cost to us.
TD
<< <i> What is the real demand? Assuming the price is $200, are there 33,000 people ready to drop $1,000 a set??? >>
Do you think the "300 dealers" in the USA will all get just one from the Mint??
Do you think MCM, Gainsville etc. haven't got this "one per household" thingy down pat yet???
Let's see....they are "selling" for WELL over 2 grand (closer to 3 grand) a set.
The Mint offers you one at $1000.....
No brainer website crashing sellout in a couple of hours only limited by whether the site can keep from crashing and worse if they sell single coins only.
The same will happen with the "P" mint pucks...
The reason for the 3 coin average, I think, was because the cost of 3 sets was under $5000. This allowed you to put the purchase on your credit card. Otherwise you HAD to select the Wire Transfer button. You could call, and I guess they'd allow more that $5000 in the CC, but on Saturday, they were not answering the phone.
<< <i>Just wait until the Mint holds these for sale into next year and offers both these and the "numismatic" versions at slightly over face!!! >>
"Face" is 25 cents
But seriously, do you really think they will be priced "slightly" over spot????
The Mint is incompetent but they are not stupid....
<< <i>...
What is the real demand? Assuming the price is $200, are there 33,000 people ready to drop $1,000 a set??? >>
I think the demand will hold up if the Mint changes the specifications in 2011. If they go to the more universal 2-3/4" diameter and remove the edge inscription, that would make the 2010 coins quite unique. I think there is great appeal in owning a type coin of low mintage that the Mint will likely never produce again. The problem is we don't have a crystal ball so we don't know what the Mint is planning to do for the 2011 coins.
<< <i>Do you think MCM, Gainsville etc. haven't got this "one per household" thingy down pat yet??? >>
one point at a time.
one per household?
who instituted one per household?
Down yet?
How can you even ask that? APMEX let people buy as many as they wanted. Their average was over 2 per order. So I am not sure of your point here. Please explain.
<< <i>Let's see....they are "selling" for WELL over 2 grand (closer to 3 grand) a set. >>
How many sold for that amount?
AND, the ONLY people that can guarantee an allocation right now are insiders.
Otherwise, don't tell me about "sales" that are pre-sales that can be cancelled if they don't get any.
Even APMEX, who we all know 100% without a doubt, can buy directly from the mint is in the dark.
So, is APMEX still selling? Today? Are those APMEX auctions?
Those are clowns who are taking advantage of the "panic." They aren't sales if the allocation doesn't come.
Also, with even APMEX placing things on hold, do not tell me that these few eBay sales constitute a market.
There is no product flow, there is no real market.
<< <i>
The Mint offers you one at $1000.....
No brainer website crashing sellout in a couple of hours only limited by whether the site can keep from crashing and worse if they sell single coins only.
The same will happen with the "P" mint pucks... >>
So you are willing to pay $1395 at APMEX for a web site that doesn't hang you up for 5 hours solid, instead of $1000 for a set with some ordering headaches?
I'll take the order headaches.
Anyway, these won't go on the website unless the law changes.
<< <i>I talked to the Mint about a return, and asked if they had any info about the 5 oz bullions, she said she had no info because they were not selling them.
The reason for the 3 coin average, I think, was because the cost of 3 sets was under $5000. This allowed you to put the purchase on your credit card. Otherwise you HAD to select the Wire Transfer button. You could call, and I guess they'd allow more that $5000 in the CC, but on Saturday, they were not answering the phone. >>
APMEX takes more than wires and CC. They take cashier's checks and money orders, even.
<< <i>
<< <i>Just wait until the Mint holds these for sale into next year and offers both these and the "numismatic" versions at slightly over face!!! >>
"Face" is 25 cents
But seriously, do you really think they will be priced "slightly" over spot????
The Mint is incompetent but they are not stupid.... >>
The info going around from the mint was spot + $9.75 per coin.
the mint has in house profit margin targets, plus they hedge silver. This info is in their annual reports. They have their numismatic markups, but that includes packaging and marketing and a lot of stuff. This was bullion. They are not going to get on the gravy train.
It was the mint who retracted the sales. do you think they did this because of they were selling too low, or was it for the reason in the press: the AP prices were too high.
The mint is interested in a reasonable price on these and that is why they halted sales.
<< <i>are there 33,000 people ready to drop $1,000 a set >>
I assumed that to be one per person (my math might be off)
<< <i> Do you think MCM, Gainsville etc. haven't got this "one per household" thingy down pat yet??? >>
When the 2006 20th ASE's came out there was a 10 per household limit.
MCM had MANY 10 set unopened boxes for sale shortly after issue (I bought some). They all have their process of getting as many as they want from the Mint. That is what I meant.
<< <i>Also, with even APMEX placing things on hold, do not tell me that these few eBay sales constitute a market. There is no product flow, there is no real marke >>
I said in a previous post that APMEX and others had ATTEMPTED to create a market by DEVELOPING a base from which prices could evolve (up or down) but that was thwarted by the calls to the Mint legal department etc. I agree there can be no true market until items can actually be delivered for a price. This present market, for lack of a better term, is false but it is all that exists until the coins appear.
<< <i>Those are clowns who are taking advantage of the "panic." They aren't sales if the allocation doesn't come. >>
You may call them what you wish but if they get their coins as ordered they will make thousands. The risk/reward is huge on the reward side. I will add I do not agree with the practice but it's been done before and will be done again.
<< <i> The mint is interested in a reasonable price on these and that is why they halted sales. >>
This is the part that gets me going.....Do you REALLY think the Mint should have ANY say in what dealers charge for their products???
Yes they are pissed that APMEX acted as a dealer AND an AP so deal with that. AP's probably shouldn't be able to deal with the normal consumer directly. It's kind of a built in conflict of interest....They are dealers but get the coins cheaper than the non-AP dealers.....
So what does the Mint do?? Charge the AP's more???? Since there are 11 or so AP's they will sell to the dealers and THEN the price will be established which will be much north of whatever price the Mint charges.
You mentioned 33,000 people buying a set for $1000......from who???? Dealers???? No.....MInt??? As you said that would take some legal work and law changing. Probably not worth the effort...
<< <i>There really is an easy fix...if enough Congressmen and Senators read the same bashing stuff in the papers you all read...it's not really that difficult to change the date in the legislation and let the Mint strike 2010's to order for 3 more months. It's not like they're really circulating coinage. Then you'll find out exactly how many people really want them. >>
Maybe they can drop all discussion of the tax bill in the last few days of the lame duck session to make this important change.
<< <i> APMEX takes more than wires and CC. They take cashier's checks and money orders, even. >>
They also take personal checks. My check for 3 sets was mailed Sat, received by APMEX Monday, and cleared my bank Tuesday. I knew I would have to wait on delivery anyway, so it was easier to send a check.
<< <i> Maybe they can drop all discussion of the tax bill in the last few days of the lame duck session to make this important change. >>
Actually, to be fair, the Mint HAS used the rationale of not wanting to create a rarity before: the case of the missing 2009 silver eagle proof being a prime example. Without sufficient blanks on hand to mint to demand, they didn't want to create an instant gem.
AND these were supposed to be available for some modest amount over spot...that was both in the letter and spirit of the enabling legislation.
Honestly, I think they expected the lackluster demand that a typical Mint MEDAL gets...and instead they ended up with a stampede. And to make matters worse, due to the unusual specs these things are likely very labor intensive...so now they're in a bind in regards to being able to strike up too many more in a limited time.
Sale of New Silver Coin Delayed . December 7, 2010
By ALEJANDRO J. MARTINEZ of the Wall Street Journal
The U.S. Mint said it is delaying the sale of 2010 "America the Beautiful" five-ounce silver coins due to concerns about the high prices and premiums that were to be charged for the bullion coins by its network of authorized purchasers.
A memo was sent to authorized purchasers at the end of the first day of sale on Monday.
"No orders were processed," said U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White.
Coin Update News, a blog for coin collectors, reported that one of the Mint's authorized purchasers, American Precious Metals Exchange Inc., began accepting orders over the weekend for complete five-coin sets priced at $1,395—$132 a coin, or $660 a set, above the market value of the silver content.
"We were anticipating this day for years," said Scott Thomas, president of Apmex, based in Oklahoma City, Okla., the largest online precious-metals dealer in terms of sales in the country. The firm was preparing a second offering when it got the news from the Mint. It said it hadn't heard from the Mint directly.
"How can you widely distribute 33,000 coins among millions of collectors who wish to buy these coins? We chose to offer some of our allocation to our customers at prices that were considerably lower than at what other dealers were selling them," said Mr. Thomas.
According to Mr. Thomas, APMEX performed price diligence by reviewing market conditions and comparing two similar products, a 2010 Chinese five-ounce Silver Panda with a mintage of 10,000 coins that sells for $425 and a 2010 Mexican Libertad five-ounce silver coin with an unlimited mintage that sells for $225. Based on this information, APMEX made the decision to set its price at $279 a coin.
The firm sold its first thousand coins in 380 transactions, which came to an average of 2.6 sets a customer, according to Mr. Thomas.
"They made the lowest number of coins in a 20th- or 21st-century series in a low-priced precious metal. What did they expect was going to happen," said David Ganz, a past president of the American Numismatic Association.
"Given the quantity of silver and price per ounce, it's not a big stretch to have someone completely corner the market on this," said Mr. Ganz.
Comex silver for December delivery set a second consecutive 2010 settlement high on Tuesday. The metal added 4.30 cents a troy ounce, or 0.14%, to $29.7480. Silver is now up 77% this year.
<< <i>We were anticipating this day for years >>
Years? This shortage was planned for years? Or does me mean they were anticipating an opportunity to make a killing?
If APMEX had NOT been an AP there would be ZERO issue with their pricing. As just a dealer, getting their product from the AP's like all dealers, collectors would have either bought it or not. It was the perceived injustice of being both an AP and a dealer that set some off.
So...limit mintage to 1/3 of announced and make it unique to the Mint product to be minted in even lower numbers
.......let authorized purchasers sell at a price advantage to the public
Ummmm.....I know who to point the finger at
p.s I'm shocked I don't smell popcorn
<< <i>You mentioned 33,000 people buying a set for $1000......from who???? Dealers???? No.....MInt??? As you said that would take some legal work and law changing. Probably not worth the effort... >>
That was an example price.
for the sake of arguement, price them at $1,000 each set and 1 set per person. Are there 33,000 people willing to take the plunge?
<< <i>
<< <i>We were anticipating this day for years >>
Years? >>
More "talk"for public consumption.
If they made 200,000 each and forced them to take them with Eagle orders, as they have with past bullion, then we'd hear about them being dumped on them.
<< <i>So...limit mintage to 1/3 of announced and make it unique to the Mint product to be minted in even lower numbers
.......let authorized purchasers sell at a price advantage to the public
Ummmm.....I know who to point the finger at >>
they didn't limit the mintage.
the intial numbers were estimates.
obviously, the estimates were wrong.
The interesting twist.... is that the AP's may save thousands of FRN's and may have a chance to make more money, since the spot price of Ag has gone down since Monday!!!!!
And the USMint may spend a whole lot of additional FRN's paying government attorneys on advice...
It's almost funny...
If it weren't possible/true.
Those that complain that the dealers finding away around a per household limit, that is just the way it is. They may end up with ten orders or a hundred orders, if they have the network, but it will slow them down to the point that the rest of us have a chance.
<< <i>What they need to do now is melt 3,000 bullion versions, mint a total 30,000 collector versions, package them in a two coin display boxes and sell them on the mint website as a collector pair, 10oz per set.
Those that complain that the dealers finding away around a per household limit, that is just the way it is. They may end up with ten orders or a hundred orders, if they have the network, but it will slow them down to the point that the rest of us have a chance. >>
That is actually quite a good idea, though I'd rather see them just strike another 6,000 of the numismatic ones (if they have any planchets left).
TD
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
135,000 / 22 = 6136.36 minutes = 102.27 hours / 8 hours per day = ~12 3/4 days work
total 28.41 business days
they've only been at this for a month and a half?
<< <i>
<< <i>Let's see....they are "selling" for WELL over 2 grand (closer to 3 grand) a set. >>
How many sold for that amount?
AND, the ONLY people that can guarantee an allocation right now are insiders.
Otherwise, don't tell me about "sales" that are pre-sales that can be cancelled if they don't get any.
Even APMEX, who we all know 100% without a doubt, can buy directly from the mint is in the dark.
So, is APMEX still selling? Today? Are those APMEX auctions?
Those are clowns who are taking advantage of the "panic." They aren't sales if the allocation doesn't come.
Also, with even APMEX placing things on hold, do not tell me that these few eBay sales constitute a market.
There is no product flow, there is no real market. >>
The More you Post, the More I like you!
This wave, which really DOESN'T EVEN EXIST yet, is just aching to break loose.
For this first round, there is always gonna be some sucker willing to mortgage his/her house to fund the purchase of these pieces only to flip em to some other sucker thats afraid to miss out on something "special".
However, once the water hits the sand and folks realize that these are specialty bullion items that are danged near unrelated to the ATB "coins", the scramble could get bloody trying to unload them.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>165,000 / 22 = 7,500 minutes = 125 hours / 8 hours per day = 15 5/8 days work
135,000 / 22 = 6136.36 minutes = 102.27 hours / 8 hours per day = ~12 3/4 days work
total 28.41 business days
they've only been at this for a month and a half? >>
Actually they've been at it since the middle of September...BTW you left out the lunch, coffee & sht house breaks in your calculation
<< <i>The More you Post, the More I like you! >>
<< <i>
<< <i>165,000 / 22 = 7,500 minutes = 125 hours / 8 hours per day = 15 5/8 days work
135,000 / 22 = 6136.36 minutes = 102.27 hours / 8 hours per day = ~12 3/4 days work
total 28.41 business days
they've only been at this for a month and a half? >>
Actually they've been add it since the middle of September...BTW you left out the lunch, coffee & sht house breaks in your calculation
Could be the lack of planchets is the limiting factor.
<< <i>We are pleased to inform you that your Money Order payment of $1,419.95 for order ####### has been received. We expect to ship your order within 3-5 business days of this e-mail. Your estimated shipdate is Dec 15 2010 If your order has items that were “Pre-Sold”, your order will be shipped in full once those items arrive. A final e-mail notification will be sent once your order is shipped.
At this point, nobody is complaining about the $1395 price.
So what's the problem?
All charges have been dropped. This is fast becoming a Mint screwing up again instead of APMEX.