<< <i>I think the first line distributors should not be allowed to market the mint products directly to the public...they are distributors...they should distribute to the sellers. By doing both, they have too much flexibility. Its like if nintendo and Sony decided to market direct to the public..Lots of the game stores would be going out of business.
The people who should really have been up in arms about this is the dealers who were having to buy at 1500 from the distributors who "sold all we had". >>
In this situation my business is the game store. I don't need to make a "killing" or a 7 digit figure. I would like to be able to offer at least SOME of these to my customers though. The only option I had was APMEX.
The Mint and its bullion distributors have reached an agreement. Dealers to purchase 1,000,000 Susan B. Anthony dollars @ 2.00 ea. and 2,150,000 clad proof sets from the 70's for 4.95, 10 of each to be included with the delivery of each 5 oz ATB quarter at no cost to the general public. These bullion items will be released for sale without further delay.
you will get them cheaper. maybe only 1, but cheaper. >>
Going by SAE proofs... $46 x25=1150 ......Discount for volume...............-$25 .......Surcharge for oversize box....$25 Extra just because they feel like it $50
Total Mint Cost(if I can get through)....$1200
I doubt I will pay less than $1000
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
LOL, what a all time train wreck mess!!!! I had to work late tonight and just caught up with the fun!!!! I was POed on Sat about the prices and decided not to buy at aything above 200 a coin and assumed that I would have no chance at these. But thanks to pressure from you all and collectors all over, , I may get these yet at 200. Pass the popcorn, this has been some great fun!!!!! Go Raufus!
There is no "fair" way to reintroduce these into the system. There is now so much hype and so much exposure and so much interest that, if they ever become available for direct purchase, the same people who always rip the system will get them: the people who live at 123 Main street, and whose kids live at 123 Main St. Apartment 1, apt 2, apt 3, and apt 4. And whose mother, father, mother in law, father in law, dentist, paperboy, gardener, etc. all order the limit within 15 seconds of each other. The same group of dealers who always have 100 sets of 1-per-household items would have 100 sets.
Almost everyone here knew about the release as it happened, certainly most people with an opinion one way or another had time to purchase the APMEX pieces at the admittedly inflated price. Some of us here saw potential, accepted the gouge, held our noses and bit the bullet. So...why should we have those orders in good faith be canceled? Because we were willing to extend ourselves in pursuit of hobby or profit? No risk, no reward, right?
Fine. We get burned. It happens. That's part of the risk itself and what makes this whole thing more interesting.
But let me ask you this: If the pieces had gone on sale Friday night at $800, $900, whatever, and none of this hype and drama had been there, THEN would you have plunked down the money? Honestly? Or would you still have been on the sidelines?
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
<< <i>There is no "fair" way to reintroduce these into the system. There is now so much hype and so much exposure and so much interest that, if they ever become available for direct purchase, the same people who always rip the system will get them: the people who live at 123 Main street, and whose kids live at 123 Main St. Apartment 1, apt 2, apt 3, and apt 4. And whose mother, father, mother in law, father in law, dentist, paperboy, gardener, etc. all order the limit within 15 seconds of each other. The same group of dealers who always have 100 sets of 1-per-household items would have 100 sets. >>
But with 33,000 sets to sell, I am sure I can get at least one. At least I have a fighting chance.
<< <i>But let me ask you this: If the pieces had gone on sale Friday night at $800, $900, whatever, and none of this hype and drama had been there, THEN would you have plunked down the money? Honestly? Or would you still have been on the sidelines? >>
Yes, I would have definately bought one set. I would have considered a second set because of the low mintage and potential flip. As it was, I did not/would not buy at $1,395! And I saw the offer within the first half hour!
<< <i>There is no "fair" way to reintroduce these into the system. There is now so much hype and so much exposure and so much interest that, if they ever become available for direct purchase, the same people who always rip the system will get them: the people who live at 123 Main street, and whose kids live at 123 Main St. Apartment 1, apt 2, apt 3, and apt 4. And whose mother, father, mother in law, father in law, dentist, paperboy, gardener, etc. all order the limit within 15 seconds of each other. The same group of dealers who always have 100 sets of 1-per-household items would have 100 sets.
Almost everyone here knew about the release as it happened, certainly most people with an opinion one way or another had time to purchase the APMEX pieces at the admittedly inflated price. Some of us here saw potential, accepted the gouge, held our noses and bit the bullet. So...why should we have those orders in good faith be canceled? Because we were willing to extend ourselves in pursuit of hobby or profit? No risk, no reward, right?
Fine. We get burned. It happens. That's part of the risk itself and what makes this whole thing more interesting.
But let me ask you this: If the pieces had gone on sale Friday night at $800, $900, whatever, and none of this hype and drama had been there, THEN would you have plunked down the money? Honestly? Or would you still have been on the sidelines? >>
At $1,000. I would have bought a set. I may have gone as high as $1,250 if I felt I wasn't going to get the culls, although I allege no cherrypicking might have gone on had the coins been delivered.
This thread is kicking the tar out of the Big One II............... 809-63..................... Sort of like the Patroits vs the Jets tonight.
Times they are a changing................MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
socialism? I'll take papers about how the global banking and finance crisis should have been handled without government intervention via PM. Be sure to provide backing documentation about how you would currently be employed and eating food bought from stores instead of looted from stores.
I see the Mint melting these because they're not able to get a viable distribution plan in place before the end of the year. However, a few coins will find their way out, creating the first true modern ultra-rarities.
<< <i>socialism? I'll take papers about how the global banking and finance crisis should have been handled without government intervention via PM. Be sure to provide backing documentation about how you would currently be employed and eating food bought from stores instead of looted from stores. >>
Thanks, I'll put that on my list of must do things--------------BigE
Maybe I posted a little too much on this thread and got a little carried away, didnt mean to offend. Talk to you all on another topic I hope------------------------BigE
I'm not a big fan of trying to regulate 'greed' or speculation...
At first, I thought maybe the Treasury could just tell the AP's that a certain portion (say half) must be sold one per customer, for a certain period of time, (say 48 hours) afterwards they could do as they please... also add a 'suggested premium above spot', based upon the price the AP's paid.
But then, I don't really like the thought of additional paperwork, audits, and the like...
***** At this point I would actually prefer that the USMint go ahead and just annouce the projected release date of their collector version, the mintage and more important........ go ahead and annouce what the ISSUE PRICE will be... *****
That would, in effect, put a temporary lid on how much people would speculate on this bullion issue. Along with an annoucement of what future mintage of bullion versions would be.
Transparency (if at all possible) is probably the best cure -- should one be deemed needed -- and it would give speculators more complete information to ponder.
the only hitch with that is the price of silver changing.
however, the mint does hedge its silver."
MsMorrisine,
If this is in response to my post... the mint could announce a premium price in dollar or percentage terms above spot when released. That should work... or... they could do a pre-sale themselves.
I'm not saying its a great idea or a permanent solution... I think its more temporary until a couple more releases are out, and people are aware of what previous versions did in the secondary market.
the only hitch with that is the price of silver changing.
however, the mint does hedge its silver."
MsMorrisine,
If this is in response to my post... the mint could announce a premium price in dollar or percentage terms above spot when released. That should work... or... they could do a pre-sale themselves.
I'm not saying its a great idea or a permanent solution... I think its more temporary until a couple more releases are out, and people are aware of what previous versions did in the secondary market. >>
Pre-sales are not a bad idea... I believe many of us remembered when orderimng the UHRs the small note at the bottom stating to expect a 9 month delay in shipping and many people bought them without second thought, they could do the same here and distribute them at the same time that they offer the numi versions. This would essentially put a cap on what dealers have to sell them at. Problem solved, who cares what happens in the secondary market
Interesting it says the collector versions will have a different finish than the bullion versions.
A Mint spokesman said the numismatic version of the coin "will have a different finish," not a proof finish, and bear the "P" mint mark for the U.S. Mint at Philadelphia.
Folks shouldn't whine and complain about how expensive these pieces could be since they are bullion and the price of silver is going up.
Instead the big complaint is the apparent gouging that APMEX was doing. It would be tough enough sinking the cost of 5 Silver Ealges plus a small premium over the bullion value into 1 coin let alone 5 but to add nearly a 90% markup on top of that was ridiculous.
Certainly nobody complains about $30 for a single Silver Eagle Bullion piece but what if the authorized purchasers charged that 90% premium for them for a total of $57 for each coin? Add a dealers markup and you'd be looking at $62-$65 for each SAE Bullion piece.
Folks would scream then just like they are now. Heck, even the auction houses only hit you for 15%!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Can everyone try to explain to me how an online dealer (which is not an AP) was going to offer these at $1329.95, a price lower than APMEX who is an AP. Clearly APMEX screwed the pooch and now they should pay the consequences. I believe booting them from the AP program is in order.
I smell a mass exodus on APMEX customer base. What a way to ruin your reputation and name for a few thousand dollars. Long term losses will be so much more than what they tried to make with these hockey pucks
JMHO>>> I think APMEX will honor their orders however they get their coins.....
>>>>>> If they have to pay more for the coins then they will make a tad less profit and move the major profit to the dealers
>>>>>> If they are mandated to rebate a portion of the $1395 then the pre-sellers on Ebay will just make a bigger profit
>>>>>> I really do not think the Mint wants to get into the distribution of these beasts
>>>>>> The concept of reclassifying them as collector's items violates the law requiring them to produce bullion coins of this design and they will never get congress to ammend that law in before the end of the year
>>>>>> Close game last night......Pats: 45.....Jets: three
The mint should sell these in vending machines. Gold is already being sold this way abroad. Instead of distributing to the bullion dealers, they could contract a company to do this. Do a test run to see how it works. Put one in Union Station, the P and D mints..... They could distribute them to the vending companies and set a price that the vendors could charge, maybe 30%. Let private industry do the start up costs, not the government. The dollar is toast and I am sure these would be popular. Maybe I should write up a business plan, find some investors, lobby congress and do it myself.
Interesting it says the collector versions will have a different finish than the bullion versions.
A Mint spokesman said the numismatic version of the coin "will have a different finish," not a proof finish, and bear the "P" mint mark for the U.S. Mint at Philadelphia. >>
FROM WSJ: "The Mint resorts to its authorized purchasers to maximize the availability of coins in retail markets as well as major investment markets. The authorized purchasers are under mandate 'to maintain buy and sell premiums for U.S. gold and silver bullion coins with as narrow a spread between buy and sell prices as prudent business judgment permits.'"
I'm still not sure why APMEX is being slammed. With a very low mintage item, they made a market to their customers. If people thought it was overpriced, they didn't buy.
The US Mint did something similar with the 2008 4-coin Uncirculated Platinum set when they offered it for $4289.95 and then repriced the set at $2219.95 towards the end of 2008, thus giving "THE SHAFT" to original purchasers.
Consequently, I feel that APMEX made a market that met collector demand. (limited supply vs extremely popular demand)
offer them 1 set per HH, pre-order (subscribe), so no problems accessing USM servers the day of release.
Hopefully, the mint will figure this out. It will bring down their site is my guess if they did not sell these in sets. They probably won't offer these as subscriptions, at least not for the first year. They did this with the spouses and they sold out very soon of all 40,000 in a short time and they cancelled the subscriptions.
now they have more "experience" and have handled subsciptions far better than in the past (sans the bad emails about orders erroneously being cancelled)
they can easily offer them in sets by subscription and if all coins are not sold by subscription in sets, offer singly on a certain day/time.
a pre-announced 24 hour period to enter your subscription. existing customers only.
i've also seen posts trying to make sense of the high priced charged by mutliplying the price of the ASE proof x 5
a bad comparison.
first - not proof. second - the cost to produce one coin is not equivalent to the cost to produce and package 5.
nice try - but bad comparison.
this coin will sell sub $200 (possibly $185-$190) as long as bullion remains $30 and below.
more power to you. based on the price being more reasonably associated with bullion prices either being sourced from the USM directly or AP's - it's definitely a buy - that is - if you really want one.
i havent made up my mind yet - regardless of a potential reduced price.
Amazing thread full of hope, fear, anger, greed etc.... Quite a drama. Here's the thing. No one at this point really knows what is going to happen, so I am going to just let it be and see what happens, its all we can really do. It is not a big deal really when we look at all of life's 10,000 things. I will remain comfortable not knowing....and accept what does happen in this case.
THIS JUST IN......... . . . . . 165,000 LARGE SILVER QUARTERS FOUND IN COINSTAR MACHINE IN CAMDEN, NEW JERSEY!!!!! . . . . Film at eleven!!!!!!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Folks shouldn't whine and complain about how expensive these pieces could be since they are bullion and the price of silver is going up.
Instead the big complaint is the apparent gouging that APMEX was doing. It would be tough enough sinking the cost of 5 Silver Ealges plus a small premium over the bullion value into 1 coin let alone 5 but to add nearly a 90% markup on top of that was ridiculous.
Certainly nobody complains about $30 for a single Silver Eagle Bullion piece but what if the authorized purchasers charged that 90% premium for them for a total of $57 for each coin? Add a dealers markup and you'd be looking at $62-$65 for each SAE Bullion piece.
Folks would scream then just like they are now. Heck, even the auction houses only hit you for 15%! >>
Perhaps the Mint should do away with the AD program and sell direct, but with a 5 roll minimum on ASEs.
I kinda wanted one or maybe a set, but I think these coins are probably an inefficient means for holding silver or for investing in silver. For pure speculation, there have been better vehicles too.
What we've been seeing isn't even speculation. What we've seen thus far is simply a Mint & Congressional red herring and a massive attempt at gouging as the result. Speculation is actually when the markets are functional and there is a divergence of opinion about the prospects. We never got to that point.
Most people understand the potential for a short struck limited edition first time issue. I don't mind paying a high market price. I do mind paying a high price when the distributor acts in bad faith all the way 'round.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
What is to prevent a company like Apmex from setting up another corporation as the AP which would "sell" them to Apmex at the mandated spot + prices followed by Apmex selling them at whatever price they want? I could see that happening if the Mint starts cracking down on them. The private sector usually seems to be one step ahead of the air heads in the government.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>If the Mint can prove that the AP's violated the agreement..... >>
Hmmmm. In the link Ms provided, I'm not seeing an "Agreement". I'm seeing some instructions on how to apply and how to purchase, but certainly not an agreement.
I also see:
"Due in part to the commodity-like, investment nature of these coins characterized by constantly fluctuating precious metal prices, the United States Mint has determined that the most effective and efficient means for bullion coin distribution is through the use of the well-established silver bullion coin distribution network in the private sector. This network consists of hundreds of coin and precious metals dealers, participating banks, brokerage companies and other financial intermediaries."
To me, this says that the US Mint makes the determination on "how" to sell bullion silver and "who" to sell that bullion to.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I'm sorry but these are meant to be bullion coins and are sold as such from the mint at a modest markup over silver. With the limited dealers involved I think they did the right thing in pulling them since these few dearlers have the market cornered. Would you want this to happen to the ASE's before going to the public? If they do skyrocket (yet to be seen) it needs to occur on the secondary market as far as I'm concerned. If anyone is to make a huge profit it should be the mint and that money used to pay down our debt....JMO
<< <i>If the Mint can prove that the AP's violated the agreement..... >>
they're hearing about it from the people calling them.
all they need are subpoenas. >>
Huh?
Again, I do not see a legally binding agreement, only a set of instructions on how to apply to be an AP and how to order bullion once the AP has been approved.
I also see:
"However, the United States Mint reserves the right to sell less than the minimum quantity, impose a maximum order quantity and suspend all sales at any time as circumstances warrant."
The US Mint has obviously decided to "suspend all sales".
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Wow, check this from MCM..."expect sticker shock when we do sell them" and they will sell "certified only"
Dear ModernCoinMart Customer,
Where do I start?
There has been an avalanche of publicity and controversy concerning the release of the National Parks 5 Ounce Silver “Bullion” Coins. Because of this, and because we have been unable to launch pre-sales up until now, I thought it would be appropriate to comment. Many of you have been asking us when we will have them and what the pricing structure will be. I have been very uncomfortable with the situation because as the largest online retailer of certified modern coins your expectations of us are very high and the last thing we want to do is to offer a product and then withdraw it, or change the rules concerning purchase and pricing dramatically.
I was immediately disappointed when I found out that the mintage for each coin would be 33,000 vs. the original estimate of 100,000. I thought that even at 100,000 the coins would command premiums on the secondary market well in excess of normal bullion mark ups. There was no doubt in my mind that with a mintage of 33,000 per coin these coins would not be treated as “bullion” in the marketplace. Adding to the quandary was the fact that the U.S. Mint has not been doing a very good job of giving distributors and secondary marketplace market makers like ourselves enough advance notice of specific information that is required for dealers like MCM and others to market the coins properly and in an orderly fashion. I am not trying to slam the U.S. Mint here or anyone for that matter, in fact the U.S. Mint does many things very well but it must be noted where nearly everyone is in agreement of their deficiencies. As a footnote, we are a very big customer of the U.S. Mint, both directly and indirectly, but we have yet to apply for distributorship.
We are doing our best to obtain the product and while some of our orders to purchase have been cancelled or are in limbo, we are certain that as long as the U.S. Mint ships we will have the coins to sell. The reality is that while the mint can determine mintages and initial pricing, they do not represent the larger marketplace that ultimately sets the prices based on supply and demand. At ModernCoinMart, we take many different factors into consideration to arrive at what we believe is a fair market retail price for the items we sell. One of these factors is obviously cost, but the ability to obtain additional product and the demand for the product are even more important. Competitor pricing is also a big factor. I expect many of you to experience “sticker shock” when we do offer these for sale but I hope by communicating with you in advance you will understand the intention is not to gouge customers but to simply have the product for those that wish to obtain it.
Our intention was to offer the coins both uncertified and certified and we had planned on obtaining a minimum of 1500 of each coin. This won’t happen. Because we will only get a fraction of what we wanted and will pay way, way, over the U.S. Mint selling price to distributors, it is likely that we will only be able to offer the coins certified but this is yet to be determined. Rather than being first to market with these we believe it prudent to take a conservative approach in allowing the smoke to clear first. Until the professional numismatic community can source coins in a manner that affords us appropriate, required, and reliable advance notice, we suspect a certain element of chaos will continue to exist with some products that can make markets somewhat disorderly. We will continue to do our best to offset this by acting with caution and in a manner that we believe will allow us to meet or exceed your expectations.
Sincerely,
John Maben President & CEO
Great BST experiences: abitofthisabitofthat, silvercoinsdude, gerard, coinfame, mikescoins, wondercoin
<< <i>What is to prevent a company like Apmex from setting up another corporation as the AP which would "sell" them to Apmex at the mandated spot + prices followed by Apmex selling them at whatever price they want? I could see that happening if the Mint starts cracking down on them. The private sector usually seems to be one step ahead of the air heads in the government. >>
5 years in the market place.
"An applying firm may also be engaged in the retail purchase and sale of silver bullion coins, but it must be able to demonstrate that for a minimum of five continuous years it has maintained a well-established wholesale network of retail coin and precious metal dealers to which it distributes and markets these coins."
Correction, 3 years minimum:
"In lieu of the five-year history requirement, the United States Mint may consider an applying firm’s relative experience/stature in the industry if a firm has a minimum of three years continuous experience in the purchase and sale of silver bullion coins at a wholesale level and/or can also demonstrate it has other commodities trading experience, futures and/or electronic trading activities deemed acceptable by the United States Mint."
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>What is to prevent a company like Apmex from setting up another corporation as the AP which would "sell" them to Apmex at the mandated spot + prices followed by Apmex selling them at whatever price they want? I could see that happening if the Mint starts cracking down on them. The private sector usually seems to be one step ahead of the air heads in the government. >>
5 years in the market place.
"An applying firm may also be engaged in the retail purchase and sale of silver bullion coins, but it must be able to demonstrate that for a minimum of five continuous years it has maintained a well-established wholesale network of retail coin and precious metal dealers to which it distributes and markets these coins."
Correction, 3 years minimum:
"In lieu of the five-year history requirement, the United States Mint may consider an applying firm’s relative experience/stature in the industry if a firm has a minimum of three years continuous experience in the purchase and sale of silver bullion coins at a wholesale level and/or can also demonstrate it has other commodities trading experience, futures and/or electronic trading activities deemed acceptable by the United States Mint." >>
So why couldn't APMEX sell them to another "FRIENDLY" middleman for $1 over cost and let that "FRIENDLY" middleman [who is not bound by any mint restrictions] do the gouging?
Comments
you will get them cheaper. maybe only 1, but cheaper.
<< <i>I think the first line distributors should not be allowed to market the mint products directly to the public...they are distributors...they should distribute to the sellers.
By doing both, they have too much flexibility. Its like if nintendo and Sony decided to market direct to the public..Lots of the game stores would be going out of business.
The people who should really have been up in arms about this is the dealers who were having to buy at 1500 from the distributors who "sold all we had". >>
In this situation my business is the game store. I don't need to make a "killing" or a 7 digit figure. I would like to be able to offer at least SOME of these to my customers though. The only option I had was APMEX.
The Mint and its bullion distributors have reached an agreement. Dealers to purchase 1,000,000 Susan B. Anthony dollars @ 2.00 ea. and 2,150,000 clad proof sets from the 70's for 4.95, 10 of each to be included with the delivery of each 5 oz ATB quarter at no cost to the general public. These bullion items will be released for sale without further delay.
---------------------------------BigE
<< <i>wipe your eyes sponge,
you will get them cheaper. maybe only 1, but cheaper. >>
Going by SAE proofs... $46 x25=1150
......Discount for volume...............-$25
.......Surcharge for oversize box....$25
Extra just because they feel like it $50
Total Mint Cost(if I can get through)....$1200
I doubt I will pay less than $1000
Almost everyone here knew about the release as it happened, certainly most people with an opinion one way or another had time to purchase the APMEX pieces at the admittedly inflated price. Some of us here saw potential, accepted the gouge, held our noses and bit the bullet. So...why should we have those orders in good faith be canceled? Because we were willing to extend ourselves in pursuit of hobby or profit? No risk, no reward, right?
Fine. We get burned. It happens. That's part of the risk itself and what makes this whole thing more interesting.
But let me ask you this: If the pieces had gone on sale Friday night at $800, $900, whatever, and none of this hype and drama had been there, THEN would you have plunked down the money? Honestly? Or would you still have been on the sidelines?
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>There is no "fair" way to reintroduce these into the system. There is now so much hype and so much exposure and so much interest that, if they ever become available for direct purchase, the same people who always rip the system will get them: the people who live at 123 Main street, and whose kids live at 123 Main St. Apartment 1, apt 2, apt 3, and apt 4. And whose mother, father, mother in law, father in law, dentist, paperboy, gardener, etc. all order the limit within 15 seconds of each other. The same group of dealers who always have 100 sets of 1-per-household items would have 100 sets. >>
But with 33,000 sets to sell, I am sure I can get at least one. At least I have a fighting chance.
<< <i>But let me ask you this: If the pieces had gone on sale Friday night at $800, $900, whatever, and none of this hype and drama had been there, THEN would you have plunked down the money? Honestly? Or would you still have been on the sidelines? >>
Yes, I would have definately bought one set. I would have considered a second set because of the low mintage and potential flip. As it was, I did not/would not buy at $1,395! And I saw the offer within the first half hour!
<< <i>If the Mint can prove that the AP's violated the agreement..... >>
they're hearing about it from the people calling them.
all they need are subpoenas.
<< <i>
<< <i>If the Mint can prove that the AP's violated the agreement..... >>
they're hearing about it from the people calling them.
all they need are subpoenas. >>
From what I recall it seems the Mints mandate to the AP's is worded vaguely so "proof of violation" is a tough assignment.
<< <i>There is no "fair" way to reintroduce these into the system. There is now so much hype and so much exposure and so much interest that, if they ever become available for direct purchase, the same people who always rip the system will get them: the people who live at 123 Main street, and whose kids live at 123 Main St. Apartment 1, apt 2, apt 3, and apt 4. And whose mother, father, mother in law, father in law, dentist, paperboy, gardener, etc. all order the limit within 15 seconds of each other. The same group of dealers who always have 100 sets of 1-per-household items would have 100 sets.
Almost everyone here knew about the release as it happened, certainly most people with an opinion one way or another had time to purchase the APMEX pieces at the admittedly inflated price. Some of us here saw potential, accepted the gouge, held our noses and bit the bullet. So...why should we have those orders in good faith be canceled? Because we were willing to extend ourselves in pursuit of hobby or profit? No risk, no reward, right?
Fine. We get burned. It happens. That's part of the risk itself and what makes this whole thing more interesting.
But let me ask you this: If the pieces had gone on sale Friday night at $800, $900, whatever, and none of this hype and drama had been there, THEN would you have plunked down the money? Honestly? Or would you still have been on the sidelines? >>
At $1,000. I would have bought a set. I may have gone as high as $1,250 if I felt I wasn't going to get the culls, although I allege no cherrypicking might have gone on had the coins been delivered.
<< <i>You sure can see who the socialists are and who the free market people are in this thread------------BigE >>
Learn, and truly understand economically, what oligopoly means before you start throwing "isms" around like socialism.
Ignorance....the last vestige of the uninformed.
Times they are a changing................MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If the Mint can prove that the AP's violated the agreement..... >>
they're hearing about it from the people calling them.
all they need are subpoenas. >>
From what I recall it seems the Mints mandate to the AP's is worded vaguely so "proof of violation" is a tough assignment. >>
I can see where you're headed, but the mint also has that "unilateral termination" clause, too.
I sent my money to APMEX first thing this morning. I guess I will ride it out and see where it goes from here.
The quick sellout of the pucks proves they were not overpriced but underpriced.
<< <i>
<< <i>You sure can see who the socialists are and who the free market people are in this thread------------BigE >>
Learn, and truly understand economically, what oligopoly means before you start throwing "isms" around like socialism.
Ignorance....the last vestige of the uninformed.[/q
Oligopy,whats that got to do with anything? I suggest you take a course in economics before throwing "opolies" around
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You sure can see who the socialists are and who the free market people are in this thread------------BigE >>
Learn, and truly understand economically, what oligopoly means before you start throwing "isms" around like socialism.
Ignorance....the last vestige of the uninformed.[/q
Oligopy,whats that got to do with anything? I suggest you take a course in economics before throwing "opolies" around
Fun game. I got dibs on the top hat.
<< <i>socialism? I'll take papers about how the global banking and finance crisis should have been handled without government intervention via PM. Be sure to provide backing documentation about how you would currently be employed and eating food bought from stores instead of looted from stores. >>
Thanks, I'll put that on my list of must do things--------------BigE
they won't melt them.
(Anti-monopoly)
At first, I thought maybe the Treasury could just tell the AP's that a certain portion (say half) must be sold one per customer, for a certain period of time, (say 48 hours) afterwards they could do as they please... also add a 'suggested premium above spot', based upon the price the AP's paid.
But then, I don't really like the thought of additional paperwork, audits, and the like...
***** At this point I would actually prefer that the USMint go ahead and just annouce the projected release date of their collector version, the mintage and more important........ go ahead and annouce what the ISSUE PRICE will be... *****
That would, in effect, put a temporary lid on how much people would speculate on this bullion issue. Along with an annoucement of what future mintage of bullion versions would be.
Transparency (if at all possible) is probably the best cure -- should one be deemed needed -- and it would give speculators more complete information to ponder.
the only hitch with that is the price of silver changing.
however, the mint does hedge its silver.
the only hitch with that is the price of silver changing.
however, the mint does hedge its silver."
MsMorrisine,
If this is in response to my post... the mint could announce a premium price in dollar or percentage terms above spot when released. That should work... or... they could do a pre-sale themselves.
I'm not saying its a great idea or a permanent solution... I think its more temporary until a couple more releases are out, and people are aware of what previous versions did in the secondary market.
<< <i>"good idea.
the only hitch with that is the price of silver changing.
however, the mint does hedge its silver."
MsMorrisine,
If this is in response to my post... the mint could announce a premium price in dollar or percentage terms above spot when released. That should work... or... they could do a pre-sale themselves.
I'm not saying its a great idea or a permanent solution... I think its more temporary until a couple more releases are out, and people are aware of what previous versions did in the secondary market. >>
Pre-sales are not a bad idea...
I believe many of us remembered when orderimng the UHRs the small note at the bottom stating to expect a 9 month delay in shipping and many people bought them without second thought, they could do the same here and distribute them at the same time that they offer the numi versions. This would essentially put a cap on what dealers have to sell them at. Problem solved, who cares what happens in the secondary market
Wall Street Journal article on these coins
Interesting it says the collector versions will have a different finish than the bullion versions.
A Mint spokesman said the numismatic version of the coin "will have a different finish," not a proof finish, and bear the "P" mint mark for the U.S. Mint at Philadelphia.
Instead the big complaint is the apparent gouging that APMEX was doing. It would be tough enough sinking the cost of 5 Silver Ealges plus a small premium over the bullion value into 1 coin let alone 5 but to add nearly a 90% markup on top of that was ridiculous.
Certainly nobody complains about $30 for a single Silver Eagle Bullion piece but what if the authorized purchasers charged that 90% premium for them for a total of $57 for each coin? Add a dealers markup and you'd be looking at $62-$65 for each SAE Bullion piece.
Folks would scream then just like they are now. Heck, even the auction houses only hit you for 15%!
The name is LEE!
I smell a mass exodus on APMEX customer base. What a way to ruin your reputation and name for a few thousand dollars. Long term losses will be so much more than what they tried to make with these hockey pucks
>>>>>> If they have to pay more for the coins then they will make a tad less profit and move the major profit to the dealers
>>>>>> If they are mandated to rebate a portion of the $1395 then the pre-sellers on Ebay will just make a bigger profit
>>>>>> I really do not think the Mint wants to get into the distribution of these beasts
>>>>>> The concept of reclassifying them as collector's items violates the law requiring them to produce bullion coins of this design and they will never get congress to ammend that law in before the end of the year
>>>>>> Close game last night......Pats: 45.....Jets: three
Box of 20
<< <i>Wall Street Journal article on these coins
Interesting it says the collector versions will have a different finish than the bullion versions.
A Mint spokesman said the numismatic version of the coin "will have a different finish," not a proof finish, and bear the "P" mint mark for the U.S. Mint at Philadelphia. >>
FROM WSJ:
"The Mint resorts to its authorized purchasers to maximize the availability of coins in retail markets as well as major investment markets.
The authorized purchasers are under mandate 'to maintain buy and sell premiums for U.S. gold and silver bullion coins with as narrow a
spread between buy and sell prices as prudent business judgment permits.'"
I'm still not sure why APMEX is being slammed. With a very low mintage item, they made a market to their customers. If people thought it was overpriced, they didn't buy.
The US Mint did something similar with the 2008 4-coin Uncirculated Platinum set when they offered it for $4289.95 and then repriced the set at $2219.95 towards the end
of 2008, thus giving "THE SHAFT" to original purchasers.
Consequently, I feel that APMEX made a market that met collector demand. (limited supply vs extremely popular demand)
Hopefully, the mint will figure this out. It will bring down their site is my guess if they did not sell these in sets. They probably won't offer these as subscriptions, at least not for the first year. They did this with the spouses and they sold out very soon of all 40,000 in a short time and they cancelled the subscriptions.
Box of 20
they can easily offer them in sets by subscription and if all coins are not sold by subscription in sets, offer singly on a certain day/time.
a pre-announced 24 hour period to enter your subscription. existing customers only.
i've also seen posts trying to make sense of the high priced charged by mutliplying the price of the ASE proof x 5
a bad comparison.
first - not proof. second - the cost to produce one coin is not equivalent to the cost to produce and package 5.
nice try - but bad comparison.
this coin will sell sub $200 (possibly $185-$190) as long as bullion remains $30 and below.
more power to you. based on the price being more reasonably associated with bullion prices either being sourced from the USM directly or AP's - it's definitely a buy - that is - if you really want one.
i havent made up my mind yet - regardless of a potential reduced price.
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165,000 LARGE SILVER QUARTERS FOUND IN COINSTAR MACHINE IN CAMDEN, NEW JERSEY!!!!!
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Film at eleven!!!!!!
<< <i>Folks shouldn't whine and complain about how expensive these pieces could be since they are bullion and the price of silver is going up.
Instead the big complaint is the apparent gouging that APMEX was doing. It would be tough enough sinking the cost of 5 Silver Ealges plus a small premium over the bullion value into 1 coin let alone 5 but to add nearly a 90% markup on top of that was ridiculous.
Certainly nobody complains about $30 for a single Silver Eagle Bullion piece but what if the authorized purchasers charged that 90% premium for them for a total of $57 for each coin? Add a dealers markup and you'd be looking at $62-$65 for each SAE Bullion piece.
Folks would scream then just like they are now. Heck, even the auction houses only hit you for 15%! >>
Perhaps the Mint should do away with the AD program and sell direct, but with a 5 roll minimum on ASEs.
What we've been seeing isn't even speculation. What we've seen thus far is simply a Mint & Congressional red herring and a massive attempt at gouging as the result. Speculation is actually when the markets are functional and there is a divergence of opinion about the prospects. We never got to that point.
Most people understand the potential for a short struck limited edition first time issue. I don't mind paying a high market price. I do mind paying a high price when the distributor acts in bad faith all the way 'round.
I knew it would happen.
you asked.....
bottom line is - if you dont want to "police" that type of distribution by the AP's, then
SELL THEM DIRECT
<< <i>If the Mint can prove that the AP's violated the agreement..... >>
Hmmmm. In the link Ms provided, I'm not seeing an "Agreement". I'm seeing some instructions on how to apply and how to purchase, but certainly not an agreement.
I also see:
"Due in part to the commodity-like, investment nature of these coins characterized by constantly fluctuating precious metal prices, the United States Mint has determined that the most effective and efficient means for bullion coin distribution is through the use of the well-established silver bullion coin distribution network in the private sector. This network consists of hundreds of coin and precious metals dealers, participating banks, brokerage companies and other financial intermediaries."
To me, this says that the US Mint makes the determination on "how" to sell bullion silver and "who" to sell that bullion to.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>If the Mint can prove that the AP's violated the agreement..... >>
they're hearing about it from the people calling them.
all they need are subpoenas. >>
Huh?
Again, I do not see a legally binding agreement, only a set of instructions on how to apply to be an AP and how to order bullion once the AP has been approved.
I also see:
"However, the United States Mint reserves the right to sell less than the minimum quantity, impose a maximum order quantity and suspend all sales at any time as circumstances warrant."
The US Mint has obviously decided to "suspend all sales".
The name is LEE!
That there is a market and demand etc that people will pay is irrelevant.
The law is what matters and their agreement with the U.S. Govt (Mint) which was obviously broken.
Dear ModernCoinMart Customer,
Where do I start?
There has been an avalanche of publicity and controversy concerning the release of the National Parks 5 Ounce Silver “Bullion” Coins. Because of this, and because we have been unable to launch pre-sales up until now, I thought it would be appropriate to comment. Many of you have been asking us when we will have them and what the pricing structure will be. I have been very uncomfortable with the situation because as the largest online retailer of certified modern coins your expectations of us are very high and the last thing we want to do is to offer a product and then withdraw it, or change the rules concerning purchase and pricing dramatically.
I was immediately disappointed when I found out that the mintage for each coin would be 33,000 vs. the original estimate of 100,000. I thought that even at 100,000 the coins would command premiums on the secondary market well in excess of normal bullion mark ups. There was no doubt in my mind that with a mintage of 33,000 per coin these coins would not be treated as “bullion” in the marketplace. Adding to the quandary was the fact that the U.S. Mint has not been doing a very good job of giving distributors and secondary marketplace market makers like ourselves enough advance notice of specific information that is required for dealers like MCM and others to market the coins properly and in an orderly fashion. I am not trying to slam the U.S. Mint here or anyone for that matter, in fact the U.S. Mint does many things very well but it must be noted where nearly everyone is in agreement of their deficiencies. As a footnote, we are a very big customer of the U.S. Mint, both directly and indirectly, but we have yet to apply for distributorship.
We are doing our best to obtain the product and while some of our orders to purchase have been cancelled or are in limbo, we are certain that as long as the U.S. Mint ships we will have the coins to sell. The reality is that while the mint can determine mintages and initial pricing, they do not represent the larger marketplace that ultimately sets the prices based on supply and demand. At ModernCoinMart, we take many different factors into consideration to arrive at what we believe is a fair market retail price for the items we sell. One of these factors is obviously cost, but the ability to obtain additional product and the demand for the product are even more important. Competitor pricing is also a big factor. I expect many of you to experience “sticker shock” when we do offer these for sale but I hope by communicating with you in advance you will understand the intention is not to gouge customers but to simply have the product for those that wish to obtain it.
Our intention was to offer the coins both uncertified and certified and we had planned on obtaining a minimum of 1500 of each coin. This won’t happen. Because we will only get a fraction of what we wanted and will pay way, way, over the U.S. Mint selling price to distributors, it is likely that we will only be able to offer the coins certified but this is yet to be determined. Rather than being first to market with these we believe it prudent to take a conservative approach in allowing the smoke to clear first. Until the professional numismatic community can source coins in a manner that affords us appropriate, required, and reliable advance notice, we suspect a certain element of chaos will continue to exist with some products that can make markets somewhat disorderly. We will continue to do our best to offset this by acting with caution and in a manner that we believe will allow us to meet or exceed your expectations.
Sincerely,
John Maben
President & CEO
<< <i>What is to prevent a company like Apmex from setting up another corporation as the AP which would "sell" them to Apmex at the mandated spot + prices followed by Apmex selling them at whatever price they want? I could see that happening if the Mint starts cracking down on them. The private sector usually seems to be one step ahead of the air heads in the government. >>
5 years in the market place.
"An applying firm may also be engaged in the retail purchase and sale of silver bullion coins, but it must be able to demonstrate that for a minimum of five continuous years it has maintained a well-established wholesale network of retail coin and precious metal dealers to which it distributes and markets these coins."
Correction, 3 years minimum:
"In lieu of the five-year history requirement, the United States Mint may consider an applying firm’s relative experience/stature in the industry if a firm has a minimum of three years continuous experience in the purchase and sale of silver bullion coins at a wholesale level and/or can also demonstrate it has other commodities trading experience, futures and/or electronic trading activities deemed acceptable by the United States Mint."
The name is LEE!
<< <i>It will be an even bigger headache trying to do distribute these other way. You think when the Mint sells theirs it will any less of a headache.
Send them out, if I get a hundred or two refunded, even better, but don't care. Give me my coins.
As stated previously. Give Me My Coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>What is to prevent a company like Apmex from setting up another corporation as the AP which would "sell" them to Apmex at the mandated spot + prices followed by Apmex selling them at whatever price they want? I could see that happening if the Mint starts cracking down on them. The private sector usually seems to be one step ahead of the air heads in the government. >>
5 years in the market place.
"An applying firm may also be engaged in the retail purchase and sale of silver bullion coins, but it must be able to demonstrate that for a minimum of five continuous years it has maintained a well-established wholesale network of retail coin and precious metal dealers to which it distributes and markets these coins."
Correction, 3 years minimum:
"In lieu of the five-year history requirement, the United States Mint may consider an applying firm’s relative experience/stature in the industry if a firm has a minimum of three years continuous experience in the purchase and sale of silver bullion coins at a wholesale level and/or can also demonstrate it has other commodities trading experience, futures and/or electronic trading activities deemed acceptable by the United States Mint." >>
So why couldn't APMEX sell them to another "FRIENDLY" middleman for $1 over cost and let that "FRIENDLY" middleman [who is not bound by any mint restrictions] do the gouging?