"One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. "
Seems like theft to me. >>
Sounds pretty low life to me. However, late date seated dimes are very common and inexpensive. They were probably well worn AG-Goods, so his little trickery probably didn't net too much.
You know, maybe his actions were karmic payback to a sleazy dealer who took them from an old lady at .50 cents per?
<< <i>Theft, pure and simple. He concealed what would have been determined to be higher priced articles and only paid the lesser price. Forethought, intent, theivery. Anyone who thinks it is not, is obviously equating it to deeds they have done in the past and are trying to rationalize their illicit behavior. Cheers, RickO >>
So everyone that cherry picks a coin that is worth more than the dealer's marked price must be a thief? You're kidding, right? >>
Not at all what he wrote. When you cherry pick you are buying a coin that would not have been determined by the seller to be a higher priced article. There is no need to conceal a cherry pick and there is no deception by the buyer. One is simply buying at the offered price.
<< <i>Theft, pure and simple. He concealed what would have been determined to be higher priced articles and only paid the lesser price. Forethought, intent, theivery. Anyone who thinks it is not, is obviously equating it to deeds they have done in the past and are trying to rationalize their illicit behavior. Cheers, RickO >>
So everyone that cherry picks a coin that is worth more than the dealer's marked price must be a thief? You're kidding, right? >>
Not at all what he wrote. When you cherry pick you are buying a coin that would not have been determined by the seller to be a higher priced article. There is no need to conceal a cherry pick and there is no deception by the buyer. One is simply buying at the offered price. >>
Whether you conceal or not makes no difference as to whether it's a theft or not.
<< <i>Theft, pure and simple. He concealed what would have been determined to be higher priced articles and only paid the lesser price. Forethought, intent, theivery. Anyone who thinks it is not, is obviously equating it to deeds they have done in the past and are trying to rationalize their illicit behavior. Cheers, RickO >>
So everyone that cherry picks a coin that is worth more than the dealer's marked price must be a thief? You're kidding, right? >>
Not at all what he wrote. When you cherry pick you are buying a coin that would not have been determined by the seller to be a higher priced article. There is no need to conceal a cherry pick and there is no deception by the buyer. One is simply buying at the offered price. >>
Whether you conceal or not makes no difference as to whether it's a theft or not. >>
"Like you wouldn't do the same thing..LOL. If the guy didn't want to sell the seated dimes for 40 cents each then why were they sitting in the same bin as the mercury dimes??? As stated the reason I placed them underneath the Mercury dimes is maybe he would change his mind or maybe he wouldn't who knows, he also could've picked up the dimes and looked through them but since I'd bought thousands of dollars of 90% coins from him I suppose he didn't have any reason to. I suppose you think I stole from this guy when I found overdate mercury dimes in bags of 90% too. "
This reinforces the fact that the person KNEW the seated dimes and mercs were NOT the same price. An honest thing to do would be to ask the seller if the seated coins are the same price. The dishonest thing to do would be to pick out all the seated dimes, and place them on bottom in hopes the seller wouldnt notice them.....wait, someone DID exactly that!
And to all of you who claim there is no premium on seated AG coins to their counterpart merc coins, sell me ALL YOU OWN at melt if you really mean that!
<< <i>If the box said coins/dimes 40 cents each that's what it means! Plain & simple! >>
It's not that simple. I explained why earlier in the thread.
As far as known facts, there are not enough provided to be sure one way or the other. Since the buyer believed the seated dimes were more valuable than the mercurys in the same box, there is every reason to suspect the seller might have, also. If the buyer truly believed the seller intended to offer all the dimes for the same price, confirming that fact with the seller before making a purchase wouldn't have cost the buyer a penny.
As stated the reason I placed them underneath the Mercury dimes is maybe he would change his mind or maybe he wouldn't who knows,.....
Again, a matter of opinion. I read this as they were all athe same price & the buyer was afraid that the seller, if he saw the Seated dimes would change his mind. So, to me, all in the same bin-all at the same price. His moral mistake (if at all)- to verify that the seller knew what he was doing. Do we really have to do that?
And to all of you who claim there is no premium on seated AG coins to their counterpart merc coins,....
Define "counterpart". AG Seated same as AG Merc, no. AG Seated same as AU Merc, possibly. Depends on the price. If I'm trying to sell nice AU Mercs at, say $5, then I can see throwing some AG or P01 Seated dimes in there too.
If the buyer truly believed the seller intended to offer all the dimes for the same price, confirming that fact with the seller before making a purchase wouldn't have cost the buyer a penny.
But not doing so make them a thief?
I have no problem saying it's unethical, unfortunately it happens all the time IMO. Deal with it in your own way & move on.
Calling someone a thief because of it........pretty serious stuff if you ask me.
<< <i>As stated the reason I placed them underneath the Mercury dimes is maybe he would change his mind or maybe he wouldn't who knows,.....
Again, a matter of opinion. I read this as they were all athe same price & the buyer was afraid that the seller, if he saw the Seated dimes would change his mind. So, to me, all in the same bin-all at the same price. His moral mistake (if at all)- to verify that the seller knew what he was doing. Do we really have to do that?
And to all of you who claim there is no premium on seated AG coins to their counterpart merc coins,....
Define "counterpart". AG Seated same as AG Merc, no. AG Seated same as AU Merc, possibly. Depends on the price. If I'm tring to sell nice AU Mercs at, say $5, then I can see throwing some AG or P01 Seated dimes in there too. >>
Hmmmm...I wonder WHY the buyer would even contemplate that the seller would "change his mind". Oh yeah, I got it.....because he knew those coins were more valuable than simply melt value! This is why he dishonestly attempted to deceive the seller by keeping them hidden, excuse me, by MAKING SURE they were hidden from the seller's view.
At 40 cents apiece in a bin, im certain the mercs were being sold at/near melt. Even beat up AG seated dimes sell for more than melt, you know this, I know this, and the buyer knew this when he intentionally made his best efforts to conceal them before purchase. Theft.
gecko109, we could go on & on with this. You think it's thieft. I think it unethical.
As far as buying at well below melt, do you want to throw the member who started the original thread in the fire also, because it all started by him posting a thread about how he was buying silver coins at well below melt. Was he "stealing" too?
<< <i>Theft, pure and simple. He concealed what would have been determined to be higher priced articles and only paid the lesser price. Forethought, intent, theivery. Anyone who thinks it is not, is obviously equating it to deeds they have done in the past and are trying to rationalize their illicit behavior. Cheers, RickO >>
So everyone that cherry picks a coin that is worth more than the dealer's marked price must be a thief? You're kidding, right? >>
Not at all what he wrote. When you cherry pick you are buying a coin that would not have been determined by the seller to be a higher priced article. There is no need to conceal a cherry pick and there is no deception by the buyer. One is simply buying at the offered price. >>
Whether you conceal or not makes no difference as to whether it's a theft or not. >>
Your statement is dead wrong. >>
I disagree with your viewpoint. To me, as long as you go through the "cashier", everything is okay, as long as everything is on the "checkstand" and the cashier has the opportunity to examine the items. I am in no way responsible for any errors or omissions made by other parties.
Let's take an example. I buy a bunch of groceries, but I also buy an item that may be deemed controversial or whatever. I hide the item under the regular groceries. All of the items, including the controversial item , are on the checkstand. Does this make me an intentional thief? What if the cashier misses the controversial item? Does that change the scenario if I don't report it? Like I said, I'm not obligated to report any mistakes of the other party.
<< <i>Theft, pure and simple. He concealed what would have been determined to be higher priced articles and only paid the lesser price. Forethought, intent, theivery. Anyone who thinks it is not, is obviously equating it to deeds they have done in the past and are trying to rationalize their illicit behavior. Cheers, RickO >>
So everyone that cherry picks a coin that is worth more than the dealer's marked price must be a thief? You're kidding, right? >>
Not at all what he wrote. When you cherry pick you are buying a coin that would not have been determined by the seller to be a higher priced article. There is no need to conceal a cherry pick and there is no deception by the buyer. One is simply buying at the offered price. >>
Whether you conceal or not makes no difference as to whether it's a theft or not. >>
Your statement is dead wrong. >>
I disagree with your viewpoint. To me, as long as you go through the "cashier", everything is okay, as long as everything is on the "checkstand" and the cashier has the opportunity to examine the items. I am in no way responsible for any errors or omissions made by other parties.
Let's take an example. I buy a bunch of groceries, but I also buy an item that may be deemed controversial or whatever. I hide the item under the regular groceries. All of the items, including the controversial item , are on the checkstand. Does this make me an intentional thief? What if the cashier misses the controversial item? Does that change the scenario if I don't report it? Like I said, I'm not obligated to report any mistakes of the other party. >>
So you have never been in the checkout and gotten too much change back and said something? This happens to me at least twice a year, and I ALWAYS correct the cashier about the mistake. If you are the type of guy who pays with a $20 and gets change for a $50 by mistake, and just walks out with a smile, you're a F***ing scumbag.
<< <i>gecko109, we could go on & on with this. You think it's thieft. I think it unethical.
As far as buying at well below melt, do you want to throw the member who started the original thread in the fire also, because it all started by him posting a thread about how he was buying silver coins at well below melt. Was he "stealing" too? >>
No. That could be considered unethical, but because the seller asked for a price on KNOWN items, and the buyer paid the agreed to price on those KNOWN items, no theft occurred, just a rip.
But when one goes out of his/her way to CONCEAL items in an effort to purchase them in a manner where the seller isnt aware of those items, thats simple and basic theft.
<< <i>Like I said, I'm not obligated to report any mistakes of the other party. >>
So, I guess if you gave the seller too much money by mistake, took your receipt and walked away, the seller wouldn't be obligated to let you know about your mistake, either. Suppose you later found out what happened- what would your opinion of the seller be?
<< <i>Like I said, I'm not obligated to report any mistakes of the other party. >>
So, I guess if you gave the seller too much money by mistake, took your receipt and walked away, the seller wouldn't be obligated to let you know about your mistake, either. Suppose you later found out what happened- what would your opinion of the seller be? >>
Well, in this case, I was stupid and careless then. And besides, I probably wouldn't notice that I made the mistake unless the seller had told me.
Edit: Furthermore, I would still deal with the seller. As long as there is no intentional malice, I hold no grudges and continue on with my life.
<< <i>Theft, pure and simple. He concealed what would have been determined to be higher priced articles and only paid the lesser price. Forethought, intent, theivery. Anyone who thinks it is not, is obviously equating it to deeds they have done in the past and are trying to rationalize their illicit behavior. Cheers, RickO >>
So everyone that cherry picks a coin that is worth more than the dealer's marked price must be a thief? You're kidding, right? >>
Not at all what he wrote. When you cherry pick you are buying a coin that would not have been determined by the seller to be a higher priced article. There is no need to conceal a cherry pick and there is no deception by the buyer. One is simply buying at the offered price. >>
Whether you conceal or not makes no difference as to whether it's a theft or not. >>
Your statement is dead wrong. >>
I disagree with your viewpoint. To me, as long as you go through the "cashier", everything is okay, as long as everything is on the "checkstand" and the cashier has the opportunity to examine the items. I am in no way responsible for any errors or omissions made by other parties.
Let's take an example. I buy a bunch of groceries, but I also buy an item that may be deemed controversial or whatever. I hide the item under the regular groceries. All of the items, including the controversial item , are on the checkstand. Does this make me an intentional thief? What if the cashier misses the controversial item? Does that change the scenario if I don't report it? Like I said, I'm not obligated to report any mistakes of the other party. >>
So you have never been in the checkout and gotten too much change back and said something? This happens to me at least twice a year, and I ALWAYS correct the cashier about the mistake. If you are the type of guy who pays with a $20 and gets change for a $50 by mistake, and just walks out with a smile, you're a F***ing scumbag. >>
Well, the "incorrect change" is most likely an obvious error that most people, including myself, would correct. But in most cases, the situation is not as obvious. Let's say I go to a coffee shop and order two cups of coffee, but the cashier only charges me one. Am I going to report this? Probably not. I would assume that the cashier "wanted" to give me a freebie and just say thanks, and perhaps put a little something in the tip jar to show my appreciation.
Edit: If it were two lobsters instead at the lobster restaurant, then I would report it.
Well, the "incorrect change" is most likely an obvious error that most people, including myself, would correct. But in most cases, the situation is not as obvious. Let's say I go to a coffee shop and order two cups of coffee, but the cashier only charges me one. Am I going to report this? Probably not. I would assume that the cashier "wanted" to give me a freebie and just say thanks, and perhaps put a little something in the tip jar to show my appreciation.
Ahhhhh....so you ARE OBLIGATED to "report mistakes made by the other party". Im sorry, I thought you said you werent obligated. My mistake.
If you ordered 5 regular coffees for $1.00 each, and 1 special frappacino mochiato at $3.50, and then went to the cashier and she said "thats 6 regular coffees sir?" What would be your reply?
<< <i>Well, the "incorrect change" is most likely an obvious error that most people, including myself, would correct. But in most cases, the situation is not as obvious. Let's say I go to a coffee shop and order two cups of coffee, but the cashier only charges me one. Am I going to report this? Probably not. I would assume that the cashier "wanted" to give me a freebie and just say thanks, and perhaps put a little something in the tip jar to show my appreciation.
Ahhhhh....so you ARE OBLIGATED to "report mistakes made by the other party". Im sorry, I thought you said you werent obligated. My mistake.
If you ordered 5 regular coffees for $1.00 each, and 1 special frappacino mochiato at $3.50, and then went to the cashier and she said "thats 6 regular coffees sir?" What would be your reply? >>
Well, then I would say it's the 5 coffees + the 1 special drink. Or if I'm really tired and forgetful and not paying attention, I may just mumble "yes". But if I do just mumble "yes", I would not lose sleep over it.
Regarding the other question, I did not say I was oblgated to report the mistake. It's just that I chose to.
Plain and simple theft? Well, maybe not quite. If the buyer had stuffed those coins into his pocket without paying, that is my definition of plain and simple theft.
The buyer took steps to cover his actions because the buyer had a fear that the seller would consider the buyers actions as theft.
Without a doubt, that is unethical. Instead of transparent communications, asking about those seated dimes, the seller chose to hide the issue and use deception, and thus avoid that issue entirely.
Here's how I break down the theft/no theft thing:
Where it becomes theft to me is when we know what the seller thought. If the seller is going to shrug and say "I don't care, that's just my junk box, the price is the same", then I don't think it is theft. If the seller would have charged more for these coins, then I think it is theft. In other words, you cannot really steal something that is worth nothing.
I don't think that whether your call it theft or challenged ethics matters here. The outcome is the same. If this buyer comes to your table, then you as a seller must Watch Him Closely. A goof on your (the sellers) part will be taken advantage of.
My 'favorite coin store' owner told me a story of an old guy who would look through the junk coin boxes every weekend. Happened for years. Guy would buy a few coins each time. One day, the owner caught this guy sneaking junk coins into his pocket. As it turns out, he was probably doing this on every visit. Buying a few and stealing a few. The owner had a healthy attitude. He shrugged. He smiled and laughed it off. However, the old guy (buyer) didn't come back after he was detected.
I think that is one of the keys to living a long and happy life. Knowing which battles are and are not worth fighting and being able to laugh things off. Knowing what the proper response is to any given situation. This cool old coin store amazes me.
Where it becomes theft to me is when we know what the seller thought.
Line #1 tells it all. We can presume all we want, and anyway you spin it, the fact remains that we'll never know.
I think that is one of the keys to living a long and happy life. Knowing which battles are and are not worth fighting and being able to laugh things off.
Words of wisdom. This one's not worth fighting anymore. We each have our own opinions.
<< <i>Where it becomes theft to me is when we know what the seller thought.
Line #1 tells it all. We can presume all we want, and anyway you spin it, the fact remains that we'll never know.
I think that is one of the keys to living a long and happy life. Knowing which battles are and are not worth fighting and being able to laugh things off.
Words of wisdom. This one's not worth fighting anymore. We each have our own opinions. >>
When the thread started, I voted theft. After seeing his original thread and thinking about it, I say "so what?" It's not like he found 1 or 2 seated dimes in there that might've gotten dropped in the wrong bin. He found 60 of them. The seller had to know he had different dimes in the bin and didn't care. And by putting them on the bottom, the buyer was protecting himself from the guy changing his mind. Of course as others stated, the seller could easily have quickly gone through them before collecting his cash. If he was selling them for .40, chances are he bought them for .35 each or better from someone else and just didn't care.
Some of you are just so self-righteous, it's amazing. Phil, you're like a dog with a bone, you just won't give it up. How has this affected your life? There is no right or wrong; it's life, it's an opinion, and if you don't like it, voice your opinion to the buyer who wrote about it and move on. Unless you were the seller and got ripped, this thread is stupid.
Have bought and sold on BST, many references available when asked.
I still do not see enough evidence to convict the buyer of the dimes of theft. If they were in a box marked 40 cents each, the price was 40 cents each, plain and simple.
Remember when silver was like 3100/3200 a bag? I remember a dealer (heavy hitter), he always had 5 to 20 bags of silver laying around, he liked selling & buying them by the bag (who doesn't), but on occasion he would let trusted customers go through them and pick (min 100.00 face) what they wanted he would charge 4 times face. He didn't care what you found in the bags, he didn't have time to go through them, and he wished you the best of luck finding something good.
Point is he was making money and you were getting what you wanted. He would do the same with bags of wheaties and bags of silver dollars. It was chump change to him.
Maybe the dealer that sold the seated dimes was the same way.
I remember a customer walking in one day march 1980, he was in a hurry. He said " I just left the coin shop down the road they were only paying 20.00 a piece for silver dollars, I want 22.00 not a penny less. We were paying 22 each so I said how many you got? "I got 50"
It was a busy day , he threw them on the counter, counted them in stacks of 10 and I paid him 1100 (remember he was in a hurry). Later that day when business had quieted down, I went through them. wowser : 2- 1921 peace, 1 1928 P peace, 2- 1890 CC, the rest were commons a few nice BU morgans.
So am I thief or was the customer just a dummy? (I always liked it when the customer knew more than I did.)
The ancient Egyptians used to refer to such practices as the thumb weighing on the scale. As a crime it may be a pretty mild one and as dishonesty it's something that each must grapple with his conscience concerning. In others it's something to watch carefully.
I'm not sure I understand why people get so upset over relatively trivial matters when producers are pumping our food full of water and even chemicals that make them hold more water. Millions of tons of water are shipped hither and yon weighing heavily on our infrastruc- ture so that producers might enrich thenmselves at our expence and not a word is said. The regulators stand by waiting for someone to care and the road crews stay busy repairing roads, bridges, water systems and other man made works. The electric companies sell more power and gas to drive off the water from cooking and more still to air condition the kitchen. Everyone gets rich at huge expence and waste while we are condemned eternally to eating boiled chicken ra- ther than fried.
There's no good excuse for putting ones thumb on the scale but it might be hard to see with the herd of elephants incumbent on it already.
<< <i>Remember when silver was like 3100/3200 a bag? I remember a dealer (heavy hitter), he always had 5 to 20 bags of silver laying around, he liked selling & buying them by the bag (who doesn't), but on occasion he would let trusted customers go through them and pick (min 100.00 face) what they wanted he would charge 4 times face. He didn't care what you found in the bags, he didn't have time to go through them, and he wished you the best of luck finding something good.
Point is he was making money and you were getting what you wanted. He would do the same with bags of wheaties and bags of silver dollars. It was chump change to him.
Maybe the dealer that sold the seated dimes was the same way.
I remember a customer walking in one day march 1980, he was in a hurry. He said " I just left the coin shop down the road they were only paying 20.00 a piece for silver dollars, I want 22.00 not a penny less. We were paying 22 each so I said how many you got? "I got 50"
It was a busy day , he threw them on the counter, counted them in stacks of 10 and I paid him 1100 (remember he was in a hurry). Later that day when business had quieted down, I went through them. wowser : 2- 1921 peace, 1 1928 P peace, 2- 1890 CC, the rest were commons a few nice BU morgans.
So am I thief or was the customer just a dummy? (I always liked it when the customer knew more than I did.)
. >>
I've been around long enough to see almost everything trade at both a premium and a discount. Oh sure, something like a G 1936 quarter has pretty much always traded at coin silver price because it hasn't lost enough metal to sell at a discount and it's far too common to sell at a premium.
But at some points (including the Y2K run-up) you could buy heavily worn silver at a discount. This was usually cull Good and lower grade barber coins but there are lots of bags trading and very low grade and cull seated material no doubt showed up sometimes. It has long been possible to buy such coins at a discount and trade them for more face value in heavier (less worn) coins as the premiums go up and down independently.
The intention of the buyer is apparent but with the information provided we don't really know the intention of the seller. Dealers do like to "sweeten" junk boxes with nicer material to keep people looking. And just maybe to see who puts the better pieces on the bottom.
This is in reply to the poster who said put cheaper marked switchplate covers on top of expensive switchplate covers, intending to get all for cheaper price. Whether you put more expensive coins, switchplates, or widgets below less expensive marked items and not paying what you know to be full price is theft. Call it unethical, call it what you want, it's dishonest.
<< <i>Gecko is right. whether you put more expensive coins, switchplates, or widgets below less expensive items and not paying what you know to be full price is theft. Call it unethical, call it what you want, it's dishonest. >>
There is not enough information presented but concealing from the dealer what the dealer put in the bucket does not read like the ethics question of our time...
It is sorta funny that the question of what the dealer bought the Seated Dimes for has not been raised
edited to add- I did not vote because too often folks rush to judgment only to be embarrassed in the final analysis
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I voted theft but it may not clear a legal hurdle necessary to convict of an actual crime. >>
May not clear a legal hurdle? This board is insane sometimes. This would not pass a statute of limitations test.
Someone had something for sale in a tray for 40 cents. Forty cents was paid. THERE WAS NO CRIME. The seller at the flea market had MANY of the same type of coins in that tray, to him, it was junk 90% silver dimes.
The only argument is what is ethical, and I am in the camp this thread is more unethical than what Norseman did.
If somebody has a bin of coins marked at 40c a piece, then whatever is in there is fair game at that price, regardless of how you stack the coins. From the sound of it this person was buying the coins from a dealer. It is not unethical to pay a dealer's asking price. The dealer had their chance to make money on the coins (and probably did), now you have yours.
If a dealer doesn't want to spend the time to sift through your junk silver, that's their fault, and it's not the buyer's obligation to correct it.
For all those being 100% pure, what is the difference with this scenario??
"So I take my daughter shopping and pay for her clothes......the total was $26.95 or some number where I get a nickel back. Well, there in the drawer in the nickel holder spot is a Buffalo nickel.....so I ask the lady if she will give it to me.....sure enough.....a VF 1936 D. SWEET!"
Given up by a low paid, unknowing sales person who is just trying to be pleasant.
I trust the "finder" paid for the value of the coin.
<< <i>I put "Very unethical at the very least" because the dealer should make sure of what he/she is selling.
Its close to theft. >>
and which part makes it close to theft?
concealing in itself is not a crime.
the analogy of the stacking of more expensive items on the bottom in a retail store does not work here, as from what i see, all the coins were in the same bin. Yes, if the seated dimes were in a different bin, then that's a different story, but i don't know that's true.
I'm staying neutral here, the context within which this transaction happened is extremely important, and nuanced, and I don't feel I should judge if I wasn't there.
Comments
<< <i>Excerpt from another board member:
"One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. "
Seems like theft to me. >>
Sounds pretty low life to me. However, late date seated dimes are very common and inexpensive. They were probably well worn AG-Goods, so his little trickery probably didn't net too much.
You know, maybe his actions were karmic payback to a sleazy dealer who took them from an old lady at .50 cents per?
<< <i>
<< <i>Theft, pure and simple. He concealed what would have been determined to be higher priced articles and only paid the lesser price. Forethought, intent, theivery. Anyone who thinks it is not, is obviously equating it to deeds they have done in the past and are trying to rationalize their illicit behavior. Cheers, RickO >>
So everyone that cherry picks a coin that is worth more than the dealer's marked price must be a thief? You're kidding, right? >>
Not at all what he wrote. When you cherry pick you are buying a coin that would not have been determined by the seller to be a higher priced article. There is no need to conceal a cherry pick and there is no deception by the buyer. One is simply buying at the offered price.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Theft, pure and simple. He concealed what would have been determined to be higher priced articles and only paid the lesser price. Forethought, intent, theivery. Anyone who thinks it is not, is obviously equating it to deeds they have done in the past and are trying to rationalize their illicit behavior. Cheers, RickO >>
So everyone that cherry picks a coin that is worth more than the dealer's marked price must be a thief? You're kidding, right? >>
Not at all what he wrote. When you cherry pick you are buying a coin that would not have been determined by the seller to be a higher priced article. There is no need to conceal a cherry pick and there is no deception by the buyer. One is simply buying at the offered price. >>
Whether you conceal or not makes no difference as to whether it's a theft or not.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Theft, pure and simple. He concealed what would have been determined to be higher priced articles and only paid the lesser price. Forethought, intent, theivery. Anyone who thinks it is not, is obviously equating it to deeds they have done in the past and are trying to rationalize their illicit behavior. Cheers, RickO >>
So everyone that cherry picks a coin that is worth more than the dealer's marked price must be a thief? You're kidding, right? >>
Not at all what he wrote. When you cherry pick you are buying a coin that would not have been determined by the seller to be a higher priced article. There is no need to conceal a cherry pick and there is no deception by the buyer. One is simply buying at the offered price. >>
Whether you conceal or not makes no difference as to whether it's a theft or not. >>
Your statement is dead wrong.
Agreed.
But would you also agree that concealing something, by itself - though sounding suspicious, does not constitute thievery?
"Like you wouldn't do the same thing..LOL. If the guy didn't want to sell the seated dimes for 40 cents each then why were they sitting in the same bin as the mercury dimes??? As stated the reason I placed them underneath the Mercury dimes is maybe he would change his mind or maybe he wouldn't who knows, he also could've picked up the dimes and looked through them but since I'd bought thousands of dollars of 90% coins from him I suppose he didn't have any reason to.
I suppose you think I stole from this guy when I found overdate mercury dimes in bags of 90% too. "
This reinforces the fact that the person KNEW the seated dimes and mercs were NOT the same price. An honest thing to do would be to ask the seller if the seated coins are the same price. The dishonest thing to do would be to pick out all the seated dimes, and place them on bottom in hopes the seller wouldnt notice them.....wait, someone DID exactly that!
And to all of you who claim there is no premium on seated AG coins to their counterpart merc coins, sell me ALL YOU OWN at melt if you really mean that!
<< <i>If the box said coins/dimes 40 cents each that's what it means! Plain & simple! >>
It's not that simple. I explained why earlier in the thread.
As far as known facts, there are not enough provided to be sure one way or the other. Since the buyer believed the seated dimes were more valuable than the mercurys in the same box, there is every reason to suspect the seller might have, also. If the buyer truly believed the seller intended to offer all the dimes for the same price, confirming that fact with the seller before making a purchase wouldn't have cost the buyer a penny.
Again, a matter of opinion.
I read this as they were all athe same price & the buyer was afraid that the seller, if he saw the Seated dimes would change his mind.
So, to me, all in the same bin-all at the same price.
His moral mistake (if at all)- to verify that the seller knew what he was doing.
Do we really have to do that?
And to all of you who claim there is no premium on seated AG coins to their counterpart merc coins,....
Define "counterpart".
AG Seated same as AG Merc, no.
AG Seated same as AU Merc, possibly. Depends on the price.
If I'm trying to sell nice AU Mercs at, say $5, then I can see throwing some AG or P01 Seated dimes in there too.
____________________________________________________________________________
If the buyer truly believed the seller intended to offer all the dimes for the same price, confirming that fact with the seller before making a purchase wouldn't have cost the buyer a penny.
But not doing so make them a thief?
I have no problem saying it's unethical, unfortunately it happens all the time IMO.
Deal with it in your own way & move on.
Calling someone a thief because of it........pretty serious stuff if you ask me.
<< <i>As stated the reason I placed them underneath the Mercury dimes is maybe he would change his mind or maybe he wouldn't who knows,.....
Again, a matter of opinion.
I read this as they were all athe same price & the buyer was afraid that the seller, if he saw the Seated dimes would change his mind.
So, to me, all in the same bin-all at the same price.
His moral mistake (if at all)- to verify that the seller knew what he was doing.
Do we really have to do that?
And to all of you who claim there is no premium on seated AG coins to their counterpart merc coins,....
Define "counterpart".
AG Seated same as AG Merc, no.
AG Seated same as AU Merc, possibly. Depends on the price.
If I'm tring to sell nice AU Mercs at, say $5, then I can see throwing some AG or P01 Seated dimes in there too. >>
Hmmmm...I wonder WHY the buyer would even contemplate that the seller would "change his mind". Oh yeah, I got it.....because he knew those coins were more valuable than simply melt value! This is why he dishonestly attempted to deceive the seller by keeping them hidden, excuse me, by MAKING SURE they were hidden from the seller's view.
At 40 cents apiece in a bin, im certain the mercs were being sold at/near melt. Even beat up AG seated dimes sell for more than melt, you know this, I know this, and the buyer knew this when he intentionally made his best efforts to conceal them before purchase. Theft.
You think it's thieft.
I think it unethical.
As far as buying at well below melt, do you want to throw the member who started the original thread in the fire also, because it all started by him posting a thread about how he was buying silver coins at well below melt.
Was he "stealing" too?
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<< <i>Theft, pure and simple. He concealed what would have been determined to be higher priced articles and only paid the lesser price. Forethought, intent, theivery. Anyone who thinks it is not, is obviously equating it to deeds they have done in the past and are trying to rationalize their illicit behavior. Cheers, RickO >>
So everyone that cherry picks a coin that is worth more than the dealer's marked price must be a thief? You're kidding, right? >>
Not at all what he wrote. When you cherry pick you are buying a coin that would not have been determined by the seller to be a higher priced article. There is no need to conceal a cherry pick and there is no deception by the buyer. One is simply buying at the offered price. >>
Whether you conceal or not makes no difference as to whether it's a theft or not. >>
Your statement is dead wrong. >>
I disagree with your viewpoint. To me, as long as you go through the "cashier", everything is okay, as long as everything is on the "checkstand" and the cashier has the opportunity to examine the items. I am in no way responsible for any errors or omissions made by other parties.
Let's take an example. I buy a bunch of groceries, but I also buy an item that may be deemed controversial or whatever. I hide the item under the regular groceries. All of the items, including the controversial item , are on the checkstand. Does this make me an intentional thief? What if the cashier misses the controversial item? Does that change the scenario if I don't report it? Like I said, I'm not obligated to report any mistakes of the other party.
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<< <i>Theft, pure and simple. He concealed what would have been determined to be higher priced articles and only paid the lesser price. Forethought, intent, theivery. Anyone who thinks it is not, is obviously equating it to deeds they have done in the past and are trying to rationalize their illicit behavior. Cheers, RickO >>
So everyone that cherry picks a coin that is worth more than the dealer's marked price must be a thief? You're kidding, right? >>
Not at all what he wrote. When you cherry pick you are buying a coin that would not have been determined by the seller to be a higher priced article. There is no need to conceal a cherry pick and there is no deception by the buyer. One is simply buying at the offered price. >>
Whether you conceal or not makes no difference as to whether it's a theft or not. >>
Your statement is dead wrong. >>
I disagree with your viewpoint. To me, as long as you go through the "cashier", everything is okay, as long as everything is on the "checkstand" and the cashier has the opportunity to examine the items. I am in no way responsible for any errors or omissions made by other parties.
Let's take an example. I buy a bunch of groceries, but I also buy an item that may be deemed controversial or whatever. I hide the item under the regular groceries. All of the items, including the controversial item , are on the checkstand. Does this make me an intentional thief? What if the cashier misses the controversial item? Does that change the scenario if I don't report it? Like I said, I'm not obligated to report any mistakes of the other party. >>
So you have never been in the checkout and gotten too much change back and said something? This happens to me at least twice a year, and I ALWAYS correct the cashier about the mistake. If you are the type of guy who pays with a $20 and gets change for a $50 by mistake, and just walks out with a smile, you're a F***ing scumbag.
<< <i>gecko109, we could go on & on with this.
You think it's thieft.
I think it unethical.
As far as buying at well below melt, do you want to throw the member who started the original thread in the fire also, because it all started by him posting a thread about how he was buying silver coins at well below melt.
Was he "stealing" too? >>
No. That could be considered unethical, but because the seller asked for a price on KNOWN items, and the buyer paid the agreed to price on those KNOWN items, no theft occurred, just a rip.
But when one goes out of his/her way to CONCEAL items in an effort to purchase them in a manner where the seller isnt aware of those items, thats simple and basic theft.
<< <i>Like I said, I'm not obligated to report any mistakes of the other party. >>
So, I guess if you gave the seller too much money by mistake, took your receipt and walked away, the seller wouldn't be obligated to let you know about your mistake, either. Suppose you later found out what happened- what would your opinion of the seller be?
<< <i>
<< <i>Like I said, I'm not obligated to report any mistakes of the other party. >>
So, I guess if you gave the seller too much money by mistake, took your receipt and walked away, the seller wouldn't be obligated to let you know about your mistake, either. Suppose you later found out what happened- what would your opinion of the seller be? >>
Well, in this case, I was stupid and careless then. And besides, I probably wouldn't notice that I made the mistake unless the seller had told me.
Edit: Furthermore, I would still deal with the seller. As long as there is no intentional malice, I hold no grudges and continue on with my life.
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<< <i>Theft, pure and simple. He concealed what would have been determined to be higher priced articles and only paid the lesser price. Forethought, intent, theivery. Anyone who thinks it is not, is obviously equating it to deeds they have done in the past and are trying to rationalize their illicit behavior. Cheers, RickO >>
So everyone that cherry picks a coin that is worth more than the dealer's marked price must be a thief? You're kidding, right? >>
Not at all what he wrote. When you cherry pick you are buying a coin that would not have been determined by the seller to be a higher priced article. There is no need to conceal a cherry pick and there is no deception by the buyer. One is simply buying at the offered price. >>
Whether you conceal or not makes no difference as to whether it's a theft or not. >>
Your statement is dead wrong. >>
I disagree with your viewpoint. To me, as long as you go through the "cashier", everything is okay, as long as everything is on the "checkstand" and the cashier has the opportunity to examine the items. I am in no way responsible for any errors or omissions made by other parties.
Let's take an example. I buy a bunch of groceries, but I also buy an item that may be deemed controversial or whatever. I hide the item under the regular groceries. All of the items, including the controversial item , are on the checkstand. Does this make me an intentional thief? What if the cashier misses the controversial item? Does that change the scenario if I don't report it? Like I said, I'm not obligated to report any mistakes of the other party. >>
So you have never been in the checkout and gotten too much change back and said something? This happens to me at least twice a year, and I ALWAYS correct the cashier about the mistake. If you are the type of guy who pays with a $20 and gets change for a $50 by mistake, and just walks out with a smile, you're a F***ing scumbag. >>
Well, the "incorrect change" is most likely an obvious error that most people, including myself, would correct. But in most cases, the situation is not as obvious. Let's say I go to a coffee shop and order two cups of coffee, but the cashier only charges me one. Am I going to report this? Probably not. I would assume that the cashier "wanted" to give me a freebie and just say thanks, and perhaps put a little something in the tip jar to show my appreciation.
Edit: If it were two lobsters instead at the lobster restaurant, then I would report it.
Ahhhhh....so you ARE OBLIGATED to "report mistakes made by the other party". Im sorry, I thought you said you werent obligated. My mistake.
If you ordered 5 regular coffees for $1.00 each, and 1 special frappacino mochiato at $3.50, and then went to the cashier and she said "thats 6 regular coffees sir?" What would be your reply?
<< <i>Well, the "incorrect change" is most likely an obvious error that most people, including myself, would correct. But in most cases, the situation is not as obvious. Let's say I go to a coffee shop and order two cups of coffee, but the cashier only charges me one. Am I going to report this? Probably not. I would assume that the cashier "wanted" to give me a freebie and just say thanks, and perhaps put a little something in the tip jar to show my appreciation.
Ahhhhh....so you ARE OBLIGATED to "report mistakes made by the other party". Im sorry, I thought you said you werent obligated. My mistake.
If you ordered 5 regular coffees for $1.00 each, and 1 special frappacino mochiato at $3.50, and then went to the cashier and she said "thats 6 regular coffees sir?" What would be your reply? >>
Well, then I would say it's the 5 coffees + the 1 special drink. Or if I'm really tired and forgetful and not paying attention, I may just mumble "yes". But if I do just mumble "yes", I would not lose sleep over it.
Regarding the other question, I did not say I was oblgated to report the mistake. It's just that I chose to.
The buyer took steps to cover his actions because the buyer had a fear that the seller would consider the buyers actions as theft.
Without a doubt, that is unethical. Instead of transparent communications, asking about those seated dimes, the seller chose to hide the issue and use deception, and thus avoid that issue entirely.
Here's how I break down the theft/no theft thing:
Where it becomes theft to me is when we know what the seller thought.
If the seller is going to shrug and say "I don't care, that's just my junk box, the price is the same", then I don't think it is theft.
If the seller would have charged more for these coins, then I think it is theft.
In other words, you cannot really steal something that is worth nothing.
I don't think that whether your call it theft or challenged ethics matters here.
The outcome is the same.
If this buyer comes to your table, then you as a seller must Watch Him Closely. A goof on your (the sellers) part will be taken advantage of.
My 'favorite coin store' owner told me a story of an old guy who would look through the junk coin boxes every weekend. Happened for years. Guy would buy a few coins each time.
One day, the owner caught this guy sneaking junk coins into his pocket. As it turns out, he was probably doing this on every visit. Buying a few and stealing a few.
The owner had a healthy attitude. He shrugged. He smiled and laughed it off. However, the old guy (buyer) didn't come back after he was detected.
I think that is one of the keys to living a long and happy life. Knowing which battles are and are not worth fighting and being able to laugh things off. Knowing what the proper response is to any given situation.
This cool old coin store amazes me.
Line #1 tells it all.
We can presume all we want, and anyway you spin it, the fact remains that we'll never know.
I think that is one of the keys to living a long and happy life. Knowing which battles are and are not worth fighting and being able to laugh things off.
Words of wisdom.
This one's not worth fighting anymore.
We each have our own opinions.
Bingo, last month it was in the Sports cards forum.
Steve
<< <i>Where it becomes theft to me is when we know what the seller thought.
Line #1 tells it all.
We can presume all we want, and anyway you spin it, the fact remains that we'll never know.
I think that is one of the keys to living a long and happy life. Knowing which battles are and are not worth fighting and being able to laugh things off.
Words of wisdom.
This one's not worth fighting anymore.
We each have our own opinions. >>
you're a numismatic relativist!
<< <i>I get it now....gecko's just on his time of the month and needed to find something to go off on. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Some of you are just so self-righteous, it's amazing. Phil, you're like a dog with a bone, you just won't give it up. How has this affected your life? There is no right or wrong; it's life, it's an opinion, and if you don't like it, voice your opinion to the buyer who wrote about it and move on. Unless you were the seller and got ripped, this thread is stupid.
I remember a dealer (heavy hitter), he always had 5 to 20 bags of silver laying around, he liked selling & buying them by the bag (who doesn't), but on occasion he would let trusted customers go through them and pick (min 100.00 face) what they wanted he would charge 4 times face.
He didn't care what you found in the bags, he didn't have time to go through them, and he wished you the best of luck finding something good.
Point is he was making money and you were getting what you wanted. He would do the same with bags of wheaties and bags of silver dollars. It was chump change to him.
Maybe the dealer that sold the seated dimes was the same way.
I remember a customer walking in one day march 1980, he was in a hurry. He said " I just left the coin shop down the road they were only paying 20.00 a piece for silver dollars, I want 22.00 not a penny less. We were paying 22 each so I said how many you got? "I got 50"
It was a busy day , he threw them on the counter, counted them in stacks of 10 and I paid him 1100 (remember he was in a hurry).
Later that day when business had quieted down, I went through them. wowser : 2- 1921 peace, 1 1928 P peace, 2- 1890 CC, the rest were commons a few nice BU morgans.
So am I thief or was the customer just a dummy? (I always liked it when the customer knew more than I did.)
GO Bengals (hoping for a .500 season).
weighing on the scale. As a crime it may be a pretty mild one and as
dishonesty it's something that each must grapple with his conscience
concerning. In others it's something to watch carefully.
I'm not sure I understand why people get so upset over relatively
trivial matters when producers are pumping our food full of water and
even chemicals that make them hold more water. Millions of tons of
water are shipped hither and yon weighing heavily on our infrastruc-
ture so that producers might enrich thenmselves at our expence and
not a word is said. The regulators stand by waiting for someone to
care and the road crews stay busy repairing roads, bridges, water
systems and other man made works. The electric companies sell more
power and gas to drive off the water from cooking and more still to
air condition the kitchen. Everyone gets rich at huge expence and
waste while we are condemned eternally to eating boiled chicken ra-
ther than fried.
There's no good excuse for putting ones thumb on the scale but it
might be hard to see with the herd of elephants incumbent on it already.
<< <i>Remember when silver was like 3100/3200 a bag?
I remember a dealer (heavy hitter), he always had 5 to 20 bags of silver laying around, he liked selling & buying them by the bag (who doesn't), but on occasion he would let trusted customers go through them and pick (min 100.00 face) what they wanted he would charge 4 times face.
He didn't care what you found in the bags, he didn't have time to go through them, and he wished you the best of luck finding something good.
Point is he was making money and you were getting what you wanted. He would do the same with bags of wheaties and bags of silver dollars. It was chump change to him.
Maybe the dealer that sold the seated dimes was the same way.
I remember a customer walking in one day march 1980, he was in a hurry. He said " I just left the coin shop down the road they were only paying 20.00 a piece for silver dollars, I want 22.00 not a penny less. We were paying 22 each so I said how many you got? "I got 50"
It was a busy day , he threw them on the counter, counted them in stacks of 10 and I paid him 1100 (remember he was in a hurry).
Later that day when business had quieted down, I went through them. wowser : 2- 1921 peace, 1 1928 P peace, 2- 1890 CC, the rest were commons a few nice BU morgans.
So am I thief or was the customer just a dummy? (I always liked it when the customer knew more than I did.)
. >>
I've been around long enough to see almost everything trade at both a premium
and a discount. Oh sure, something like a G 1936 quarter has pretty much always
traded at coin silver price because it hasn't lost enough metal to sell at a discount
and it's far too common to sell at a premium.
But at some points (including the Y2K run-up) you could buy heavily worn silver at
a discount. This was usually cull Good and lower grade barber coins but there are
lots of bags trading and very low grade and cull seated material no doubt showed
up sometimes. It has long been possible to buy such coins at a discount and trade
them for more face value in heavier (less worn) coins as the premiums go up and
down independently.
The intention of the buyer is apparent but with the information provided we don't
really know the intention of the seller. Dealers do like to "sweeten" junk boxes with
nicer material to keep people looking. And just maybe to see who puts the better
pieces on the bottom.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
If all coins in one bin, same price, no theft.
Steve
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Gecko is right. whether you put more expensive coins, switchplates, or widgets below less expensive items and not paying what you know to be full price is theft. Call it unethical, call it what you want, it's dishonest. >>
But if you pay asking price, it ain't theft.
<< <i>The last time silver was at $5.00 an ounce was in 2002. What was the seated dime market like at that time? >>
Don't forget that most of these seated dimes may have been culls.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Hoard the keys.
for sale.Period.
It is sorta funny that the question of what the dealer bought the Seated Dimes for has not been raised
edited to add- I did not vote because too often folks rush to judgment only to be embarrassed in the final analysis
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I voted theft but it may not clear a legal hurdle necessary to convict of an actual crime. >>
May not clear a legal hurdle? This board is insane sometimes. This would not pass a statute of limitations test.
Someone had something for sale in a tray for 40 cents. Forty cents was paid. THERE WAS NO CRIME. The seller at the flea market had MANY of the same type of coins in that tray, to him, it was junk 90% silver dimes.
The only argument is what is ethical, and I am in the camp this thread is more unethical than what Norseman did.
If a dealer doesn't want to spend the time to sift through your junk silver, that's their fault, and it's not the buyer's obligation to correct it.
I wouldn't be too keen on you calling me a thief, either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
"So I take my daughter shopping and pay for her clothes......the total was $26.95 or some number where I get a nickel back. Well, there in the drawer in the nickel holder spot is a Buffalo nickel.....so I ask the lady if she will give it to me.....sure enough.....a VF 1936 D. SWEET!"
Given up by a low paid, unknowing sales person who is just trying to be pleasant.
I trust the "finder" paid for the value of the coin.
Its close to theft.
<< <i>I put "Very unethical at the very least" because the dealer should make sure of what he/she is selling.
Its close to theft. >>
and which part makes it close to theft?
concealing in itself is not a crime.
the analogy of the stacking of more expensive items on the bottom in a retail store does not work here, as from what i see, all the coins were in the same bin. Yes, if the seated dimes were in a different bin, then that's a different story, but i don't know that's true.