Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I'd imagine if duplicated the scenario and replaced dollar bills for the Mercury dimes and ten dollar bills for the Seated dimes and then completed your example the evidence of wrong doing would be seen in more stark relief. >>
<< <i>I'm a little slow , I just seen this tread and voted.......
What shocks me is 32 people on this forum think he did nothing wrong .
Dan >>
Don't be shocked. And tell me, what exactly did the person do wrong? >>
<< <i>Excerpt from another board member:
"One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. "
<< <i>I'm a little slow , I just seen this tread and voted.......
What shocks me is 32 people on this forum think he did nothing wrong .
Dan >>
Don't be shocked. And tell me, what exactly did the person do wrong? >>
<< <i>Excerpt from another board member:
"One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. "
Seems like theft to me. >>
>>
I know that. Which part of the relevant statements shows that the person actually did something wrong?
But...laying all that aside...This buyer INTENTIONALLY hid the better stuff in the stacks. Who does that unless they are trying to pull something and/or are feeling guilty? He did it because he KNEW he was doing something wrong.
If hiding something as to not raise the possibility of the seller hiking the selling price, as has been mentioned by the buyer, then yes, he did something wrong. Have you never snuck something into the house, or a room? Have you never done something that you did not want others to notice? Does this absolutely mean you're a thief, or liar, or some other law breaker.
All I'm saying is with the facts I know, I am not prepared to call the guy a thief. Doing so is a very slippery slope IMO.
I've "snuck" some junk food into the shopping cart when my girlfriend wasn't looking, but I paid for it...I didn't put in 2 items and just pay for one, and I didn't steal it from the store.
For me it all goes back to the fact that he felt the need to HIDE something from the seller. I don't care if it is a coin dealer, swap meet, or freaking Walmart. An innocent person who feels they are doing nothing wrong simply doesn't purposely hide things like that. Period.
Call me naive, old fashioned, whatever, but I have some fairly cut and dried views on the ethics of this. You go to the grocery store and buy a pound of grapes, candy, nails, whatever, you don't slip an extra half pound in the bag. That's theft. You go to a coin store (or wherever the heck this was, doesn't matter) and the guy says Merc dimes 40c each, you buy Merc dimes, not Seated, ESPECIALLY when you know damn good and well they are worth more and don't belong in there. If they are in there, you tell him, and maybe you'll get rewarded for your honesty. Otherwise, you're stealing from the guy. Period. I don't do business that way, on either side of the counter...and I want no part of anyone who does, or who condones such activity.
Even given only the facts I know...the true "slippery slope" is saying or inferring that what this guy did was acceptable... I've never been a fan of moral relativism. At a minimum it's unethical, at a maximum, theft by deception.
PS...even when junk dimes were 40c, seated dimes were worth substantially more...and nothing's been said of the condition of the coins involved to my knowledge. Is it OK to rip the guy off if they're only AG or G? VG? F? What's the cutoff point with grade, where one can rip such things and still sleep at night?
"One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in..."
At this point, the buyer can come to one of only two conclusions- either the seller intended to sell the seated dimes for the same price as the mercurys, or he didn't. If the buyer thinks the seller intended to sell both for the same price, there would be no reason to arrange the coins in any specific manner after picking them out of the box.
"...so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10."
Apparently, though, the buyer felt the need to stack the coins such that the seated dimes were not in view before making his purchase.
I suppose a conclusion could be made based on that. Or not.
<< <i>PS...even when junk dimes were 40c, seated dimes were worth substantially more... >>
I have been going to coin shops since the mid 60s and have never seen seated & mercury dimes mixed together for the same price. Not proof of anything, of course- just an observation.
I wonder what the reaction would be to a coin dealer who posted here about the old guy who came into the shop with a bunch of dimes, asked "What do you pay for loose silver?" and received an offer from the dealer of actual melt value for a mixed bag of mercury and seated dimes.
On second thought- no, I don't wonder at all. Even if it happened a long time ago.
So what do you guys think of someone going through 2x2 at the B&M. They come across a coin mislabeled, & instead of a fairly common coin it is actually one of the keys to the series. This coin is worth hundreds more. The buyer never says anything, doesn't hide it, but buys more and gives them to the seller. Seller never spots the mistake, and the sale completed.
<< <i>So what do you guys think of someone going through 2x2 at the B&M. They come across a coin mislabeled, & instead of a fairly common coin it is actually one of the keys to the series. This coin is worth hundreds more. The buyer never says anything, doesn't hide it, but buys more and gives them to the seller. Seller never spots the mistake, and the sale completed.
Unethical or stealing? >>
If "Seller" is a dealer, then he should know better. And I expect that's your argurment with regards to the "Seller" mixing in a bunch of Seated Liberty dimes amongst his $0.40 Mercury Dime junk silver.
The difference between your proposed 2X2 scenario and the HIDE the SLDs under the stack of Mercs is intent. IT was the intent of the SLD buyer to hide from the "Seller" the SLDs. In your 2X2 scenario the Buyer is performing his 'rip' in plain sight.
The SLDs is indeed Theft by Deception. The 2X2 in plain sight is just an unawares Seller. And if done in plain sight, no crime or intent to deceive has been committed.
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>If this has already been posted to this thread, please forgive me. I didn't have time to read all 10 pages
I say Theft! Specifically "Theft by Deception" Read further for a legal definition.
<< <i>Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. >>
>>
WE HAVE A WINNER!
"(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or " >>
You can't be serious. All the dealer had to do was look at his coins. There was no "prevention," just ignorance and a lack of patience on the side of the dealer; he didn't even take the time to look at what he was selling.
Honestly, if you believe this person has committed a crime by paying a dealer his full asking price... then I don't know what to say. I can understand if someone thinks it's unethical (although I would disagree), but this case is would never hold water in a legal situation.
<< <i>If this has already been posted to this thread, please forgive me. I didn't have time to read all 10 pages
I say Theft! Specifically "Theft by Deception" Read further for a legal definition.
<< <i>Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. >>
>>
WE HAVE A WINNER!
"(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or " >>
You can't be serious. All the dealer had to do was look at his coins. There was no "prevention," just ignorance and a lack of patience on the side of the dealer; he didn't even take the time to look at what he was selling.
Honestly, if you believe this person has committed a crime by paying a dealer his full asking price... then I don't know what to say. I can understand if someone thinks it's unethical (although I would disagree), but this case is would never hold water in a legal situation. >>
Goldeneye, even though the dealer was "oblivious" isn't necessarily a defense in this case. If we assume that the OPs facts are determined in a court of law to be fact, then the decisive point is whether or not, in this case, the buyer "intended" to "deceive" the seller. The simple act of burying the SLDs beneath the mercs is sufficient to establish deciet in this case and thus a jury would have to conclude that the buyer commited fraud in the essence of "theft by deception". To interpret otherwise, is to ignore the facts in this case.
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i> Goldeneye, even though the dealer was "oblivious" isn't necessarily a defense in this case. If we assume that the OPs facts are determined in a court of law to be fact, then the decisive point is whether or not, in this case, the buyer "intended" to "deceive" the seller. The simple act of burying the SLDs beneath the mercs is sufficient to establish deciet in this case and thus a jury would have to conclude that the buyer commited fraud in the essence of "theft by deception". To interpret otherwise, is to ignore the facts in this case. >>
Yes, but there needs to be a crime to be committed in the first place. If the SLDs were in the same pricing bin as the Mercs, the buyer can use that as a positive defense (or whatever you call it). The problem occurs if the SLDs either (1) were not in the same pricing bin as the Mercs, or (2) there is reasonable evidence to believe that the SLDs were put in the wrong bin and that the buyer knew about it. I'm not sure that I see either (1) or (2).
Furthermore, note how the buyer used the word "put" instead of "hid". This could mean anything, including using that method for simplicity of sorting. For example, I put the seated dimes at the bottom because it would be easier for me to sort them ...
And, why at the bottom then? Why not at the middle? The middle would work just as well, if not better.
Someone just find out which flippin' dealer it was and call them. See if they remember putting seated in with mercs and if the price would have been the same.
If the dealer would NEVER have done that, they would say so. If they have to think about it, then it was likely a mistake or error by someone.
Enough of this thread that doesn't have all the facts but people want to suppose and make assumptions. Just call the flippin' dealer.
<< <i>Someone just find out which flippin' dealer it was and call them. See if they remember putting seated in with mercs and if the price would have been the same.
If the dealer would NEVER have done that, they would say so. If they have to think about it, then it was likely a mistake or error by someone.
Enough of this thread that doesn't have all the facts but people want to suppose and make assumptions. Just call the flippin' dealer. >>
<< <i>If this has already been posted to this thread, please forgive me. I didn't have time to read all 10 pages
I say Theft! Specifically "Theft by Deception" Read further for a legal definition.
<< <i>Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. >>
>>
WE HAVE A WINNER!
"(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or " >>
You can't be serious. All the dealer had to do was look at his coins. There was no "prevention," just ignorance and a lack of patience on the side of the dealer; he didn't even take the time to look at what he was selling.
Honestly, if you believe this person has committed a crime by paying a dealer his full asking price... then I don't know what to say. I can understand if someone thinks it's unethical (although I would disagree), but this case is would never hold water in a legal situation. >>
Goldeneye, even though the dealer was "oblivious" isn't necessarily a defense in this case. If we assume that the OPs facts are determined in a court of law to be fact, then the decisive point is whether or not, in this case, the buyer "intended" to "deceive" the seller. The simple act of burying the SLDs beneath the mercs is sufficient to establish deciet in this case and thus a jury would have to conclude that the buyer commited fraud in the essence of "theft by deception". To interpret otherwise, is to ignore the facts in this case. >>
Whether or not he intended to deceive the seller is entirely irrelevant, because deception is a description of a type of theft, and not theft in itself. Was there a degree of deception in the buyer's actions? To a certain extent, yes. However, that doesn't make it theft. The law does not apply because everything was paid for at the price that the dealer established. Since the dealer had priced the coins in the bin at 40c apiece, then we know the dealer either examined the coins or (conciously or unconciously) assumed the risk of selling them without fully inventorying his junk silver.
MAYBE a little old lady brought them in with a few other coins, and MAYBE the dealer didn't know that seated dimes are worth more than melt, and MAYBE he bought them for junk silver, and MAYBE he threw them into the box for 40 cents each....... If memory serves, the dealer would get a "you suck", so why shouldn't the customer get the same? No, I wouldn't do it, but double standards seem to come up on this board from time to time....
Suppose you buy a coin from a dealer and by mistake he sends not only the coin you bought but someone else's as well....At what point, if any does it become stealing or theft?
I think there is no point where it is stealing, because this was an item not asked for. I have read here that an item sent without being asked for can be kept. Of course the ethical thing to do is return the item. But I also think the right thing for the dealer to do is pay postage.
And for good measure during your diatribe you complain about how so many people get free day care while you have to pay for it and that you pay all these taxes so people that can't find work can eat.
Not coin related & should get deleted by the admin.
<< <i>All the coins came out of the same 40 cent bin...No theft.. The seller wanted 40 cents for them, no matter how they were stacked. >>
Hmmm. I disagree. In fact the evidence points to the contrary. Here is the exchange in question, salient parts in bold:
One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. >>
Thats borderline theft.....come on man. >>
Why is it theft? They were mixed in with the Mercury dimes priced at 40 cents each, this was a long time ago when Silver was around $5 an oz. I picked out as many of the seated dimes as I could find and placed them under the Merc's he counted the piles of 10 and I paid him what he asked, I didn't know there was a key date seated dime until I got home. I've also picked 7-42/1-D and 1-42/1 mercury dimes out of bags of Silver I bought do you also consider cherrypicking these coins as stealing too??? -----------------------------------
Note in the bold passages the buyer acknowledges he was buying MERCURY dimes...he also admits hiding the Seated dimes and placing Mercs atop each stack, and that the seller counted the PILES. Now, it certainly is no stretch to say that the seller, having been asked about Mercury dimes and then presented with stacks of 10 with a Merc atop each stack...would assume that all were Mercury dimes. And this was obviously what the buyer was hoping for when he made his little "stacked decks".
Now I ask you all... is this more likely the act of someone who a)was told that ALL DIMES were 40 cents each (in which case it didn't matter how the coins were stacked, right?), or b) was told that MERCURY DIMES were 40 cents each, saw the Seated in there, and decided to pull a fast one by hiding them in the stacks with a Merc on top to give the illusion that all were Mercs?
IMO the slam dunk answer is B.
This reminds me of a time when a part time dealer brought some Indian Cents into our store a few years ago that he wanted to spin off. At that time we were paying maybe 70c each for low end circ commons. As I was going through them to determine what was in there, he stated "My wife said one of them looks like they plated it with something"... when I got to the coin in question, it was in fact a $2 1/2 Indian gold coin. Now, following the logic here I should have just said nothing, put it in one of the stacks of coins that I was counting and just paid 70c for it... but I chose to be honest and made the guy's day for him to the tune of an extra $150. He was happy, and I was happy later when I made $40 on the piece.
<< <i>All the coins came out of the same 40 cent bin...No theft.. The seller wanted 40 cents for them, no matter how they were stacked. >>
Hmmm. I disagree. In fact the evidence points to the contrary. Here is the exchange in question, salient parts in bold:
One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. >>
Thats borderline theft.....come on man. >>
Why is it theft? They were mixed in with the Mercury dimes priced at 40 cents each, this was a long time ago when Silver was around $5 an oz. I picked out as many of the seated dimes as I could find and placed them under the Merc's he counted the piles of 10 and I paid him what he asked, I didn't know there was a key date seated dime until I got home. I've also picked 7-42/1-D and 1-42/1 mercury dimes out of bags of Silver I bought do you also consider cherrypicking these coins as stealing too??? -----------------------------------
Note in the bold passages the buyer acknowledges he was buying MERCURY dimes...he also admits hiding the Seated dimes and placing Mercs atop each stack, and that the seller counted the PILES. Now, it certainly is no stretch to say that the seller, having been asked about Mercury dimes and then presented with stacks of 10 with a Merc atop each stack...would assume that all were Mercury dimes. And this was obviously what the buyer was hoping for when he made his little "stacked decks".
Now I ask you all... is this more likely the act of someone who a)was told that ALL DIMES were 40 cents each (in which case it didn't matter how the coins were stacked, right?), or b) was told that MERCURY DIMES were 40 cents each, saw the Seated in there, and decided to pull a fast one by hiding them in the stacks with a Merc on top to give the illusion that all were Mercs?
IMO the slam dunk answer is B.
This reminds me of a time when a part time dealer brought some Indian Cents into our store a few years ago that he wanted to spin off. At that time we were paying maybe 70c each for low end circ commons. As I was going through them to determine what was in there, he stated "My wife said one of them looks like they plated it with something"... when I got to the coin in question, it was in fact a $2 1/2 Indian gold coin. Now, following the logic here I should have just said nothing, put it in one of the stacks of coins that I was counting and just paid 70c for it... but I chose to be honest and made the guy's day for him to the tune of an extra $150. He was happy, and I was happy later when I made $40 on the piece. >>
I was under the impression he was just buying from a bin of dimes marked at 40c. If both parties established that the price was 40c apiece ONLY for the mercs, then that changes things a lot. If it was just a bin marked at 40c, then I stand by my original opinion.
Editted to add: after viewing the original thread the OP was taken from, I stand by my initial opinion. The coins did come from a bin priced at 40c apiece.
<< <i>Wow, what a witchhunt. This is a truly pathetic thread. I think creating a whole thread about a quote a member said in order to rake him over the coals for it is FAR worse than anything the guy did. To keep this on topic, the guy didn't do anything wrong. The coins were all in the same bin for the same price. Who cares how he stacked them? Way to take a random quote, reveal none of the context and rip the poor guy for it. Pathetic, simply pathetic. >>
Exposing the integrity (or lack of) of our fellow members is vital in this hobby. This is not a "witchhunt", nor is it some "random quote" taken out of context (the thread is linked in one of my replies here). This is about a fellow forum member of yours who admitted to deceiving another person knowingly. You think its "pathetic", I see it as important to know. Perhaps you are of the same immoral fabric as that member and wish to defend his actions because they so closely resemble your own. Whatever your reasoning, almost 2/3rds of this forum has voted that this scenario was theft. Im troubled to discover you dont think this is worth discussing. Says alot about you as well. >>
over 2/3 voted "unethical" or "theft," but your original post is manipulative in favoring your opinion, and I doubt many who voted took the time to review this whole thread and the posts that it spawned from. You neglect to say the coins came from a single bin marked at 40c apiece, which is a major aspect in a determination whether the coins were bought ethically or not.
<< <i>All the coins came out of the same 40 cent bin...No theft.. The seller wanted 40 cents for them, no matter how they were stacked. >>
Hmmm. I disagree. In fact the evidence points to the contrary. Here is the exchange in question, salient parts in bold:
One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. >>
Thats borderline theft.....come on man. >>
Why is it theft? They were mixed in with the Mercury dimes priced at 40 cents each, this was a long time ago when Silver was around $5 an oz. I picked out as many of the seated dimes as I could find and placed them under the Merc's he counted the piles of 10 and I paid him what he asked, I didn't know there was a key date seated dime until I got home. I've also picked 7-42/1-D and 1-42/1 mercury dimes out of bags of Silver I bought do you also consider cherrypicking these coins as stealing too??? -----------------------------------
Note in the bold passages the buyer acknowledges he was buying MERCURY dimes...he also admits hiding the Seated dimes and placing Mercs atop each stack, and that the seller counted the PILES. Now, it certainly is no stretch to say that the seller, having been asked about Mercury dimes and then presented with stacks of 10 with a Merc atop each stack...would assume that all were Mercury dimes. And this was obviously what the buyer was hoping for when he made his little "stacked decks".
Now I ask you all... is this more likely the act of someone who a)was told that ALL DIMES were 40 cents each (in which case it didn't matter how the coins were stacked, right?), or b) was told that MERCURY DIMES were 40 cents each, saw the Seated in there, and decided to pull a fast one by hiding them in the stacks with a Merc on top to give the illusion that all were Mercs?
IMO the slam dunk answer is B.
This reminds me of a time when a part time dealer brought some Indian Cents into our store a few years ago that he wanted to spin off. At that time we were paying maybe 70c each for low end circ commons. As I was going through them to determine what was in there, he stated "My wife said one of them looks like they plated it with something"... when I got to the coin in question, it was in fact a $2 1/2 Indian gold coin. Now, following the logic here I should have just said nothing, put it in one of the stacks of coins that I was counting and just paid 70c for it... but I chose to be honest and made the guy's day for him to the tune of an extra $150. He was happy, and I was happy later when I made $40 on the piece. >>
POTD, at least as far as this thread is concerned!
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>Wow, what a witchhunt. This is a truly pathetic thread. I think creating a whole thread about a quote a member said in order to rake him over the coals for it is FAR worse than anything the guy did. To keep this on topic, the guy didn't do anything wrong. The coins were all in the same bin for the same price. Who cares how he stacked them? Way to take a random quote, reveal none of the context and rip the poor guy for it. Pathetic, simply pathetic. >>
Exposing the integrity (or lack of) of our fellow members is vital in this hobby. This is not a "witchhunt", nor is it some "random quote" taken out of context (the thread is linked in one of my replies here). This is about a fellow forum member of yours who admitted to deceiving another person knowingly. You think its "pathetic", I see it as important to know. Perhaps you are of the same immoral fabric as that member and wish to defend his actions because they so closely resemble your own. Whatever your reasoning, almost 2/3rds of this forum has voted that this scenario was theft. Im troubled to discover you dont think this is worth discussing. Says alot about you as well. >>
over 2/3 voted "unethical" or "theft," but your original post is manipulative in favoring your opinion, and I doubt many who voted took the time to review this whole thread and the posts that it spawned from. You neglect to say the coins came from a single bin marked at 40c apiece, which is a major aspect in a determination whether the coins were bought ethically or not. >>
Thank you for pointing out this obvious witchhunt, as the person being unfairly accused by Gecko of theft let me explain a few things.
The dealer I bought these coins from set them aside for me as I've bought thousands of dollars in bullion over the years from him, he had seated dimes mixed in with mercury dimes and also some barber dimes. At the time I bought these coins Silver was around $5 an ounce, I have no idea why he mixed these all together but I bought probably 80% of what he had in this bucket which amounted to over $500 face of Silver dimes. I had no idea there was a better date seated dime in the batch but over the years I'd cherrypicked several overdate dimes some from this same dealer. I would tell him about these finds and he didn't have a problem with it in fact he bought some of them from me saying he didn't have time to look through everything that came in the store.
Now let me turn the tables on Gecko, not long ago he bought a rare 4 ounce old poured Engelhard Silver bar from someone and promptly resold it for nearly $60 an ounce to someone posting on this thread who I won't expose. If Gecko thinks that I am a thief then I must also accuse him of being a thief as he didn't disclose at the time of purchase how rare and valuable the 4 oz. bar was to the seller.
<< <i>Wow, what a witchhunt. This is a truly pathetic thread. I think creating a whole thread about a quote a member said in order to rake him over the coals for it is FAR worse than anything the guy did. To keep this on topic, the guy didn't do anything wrong. The coins were all in the same bin for the same price. Who cares how he stacked them? Way to take a random quote, reveal none of the context and rip the poor guy for it. Pathetic, simply pathetic. >>
Exposing the integrity (or lack of) of our fellow members is vital in this hobby. This is not a "witchhunt", nor is it some "random quote" taken out of context (the thread is linked in one of my replies here). This is about a fellow forum member of yours who admitted to deceiving another person knowingly. You think its "pathetic", I see it as important to know. Perhaps you are of the same immoral fabric as that member and wish to defend his actions because they so closely resemble your own. Whatever your reasoning, almost 2/3rds of this forum has voted that this scenario was theft. Im troubled to discover you dont think this is worth discussing. Says alot about you as well. >>
over 2/3 voted "unethical" or "theft," but your original post is manipulative in favoring your opinion, and I doubt many who voted took the time to review this whole thread and the posts that it spawned from. You neglect to say the coins came from a single bin marked at 40c apiece, which is a major aspect in a determination whether the coins were bought ethically or not. >>
Thank you for pointing out this obvious witchhunt, as the person being unfairly accused by Gecko of theft let me explain a few things.
The dealer I bought these coins from set them aside for me as I've bought thousands of dollars in bullion over the years from him, he had seated dimes mixed in with mercury dimes and also some barber dimes. At the time I bought these coins Silver was around $5 an ounce, I have no idea why he mixed these all together but I bought probably 80% of what he had in this bucket which amounted to over $500 face of Silver dimes. I had no idea there was a better date seated dime in the batch but over the years I'd cherrypicked several overdate dimes some from this same dealer. I would tell him about these finds and he didn't have a problem with it in fact he bought some of them from me saying he didn't have time to look through everything that came in the store.
Now let me turn the tables on Gecko, not long ago he bought a rare 4 ounce old poured Engelhard Silver bar from someone and promptly resold it for nearly $60 an ounce to someone posting on this thread who I won't expose. If Gecko thinks that I am a thief then I must also accuse him of being a thief as he didn't disclose at the time of purchase how rare and valuable the 4 oz. bar was to the seller. >>
OK. Fair enough. Gecko outed you so why not retaliate. You deserve it.
But I am curious as to why you "put the SLDs in the stacks underneath the Mercs" intentionally. Or is that not true?
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>Wow, what a witchhunt. This is a truly pathetic thread. I think creating a whole thread about a quote a member said in order to rake him over the coals for it is FAR worse than anything the guy did. To keep this on topic, the guy didn't do anything wrong. The coins were all in the same bin for the same price. Who cares how he stacked them? Way to take a random quote, reveal none of the context and rip the poor guy for it. Pathetic, simply pathetic. >>
Exposing the integrity (or lack of) of our fellow members is vital in this hobby. This is not a "witchhunt", nor is it some "random quote" taken out of context (the thread is linked in one of my replies here). This is about a fellow forum member of yours who admitted to deceiving another person knowingly. You think its "pathetic", I see it as important to know. Perhaps you are of the same immoral fabric as that member and wish to defend his actions because they so closely resemble your own. Whatever your reasoning, almost 2/3rds of this forum has voted that this scenario was theft. Im troubled to discover you dont think this is worth discussing. Says alot about you as well. >>
over 2/3 voted "unethical" or "theft," but your original post is manipulative in favoring your opinion, and I doubt many who voted took the time to review this whole thread and the posts that it spawned from. You neglect to say the coins came from a single bin marked at 40c apiece, which is a major aspect in a determination whether the coins were bought ethically or not. >>
Thank you for pointing out this obvious witchhunt, as the person being unfairly accused by Gecko of theft let me explain a few things.
The dealer I bought these coins from set them aside for me as I've bought thousands of dollars in bullion over the years from him, he had seated dimes mixed in with mercury dimes and also some barber dimes. At the time I bought these coins Silver was around $5 an ounce, I have no idea why he mixed these all together but I bought probably 80% of what he had in this bucket which amounted to over $500 face of Silver dimes. I had no idea there was a better date seated dime in the batch but over the years I'd cherrypicked several overdate dimes some from this same dealer. I would tell him about these finds and he didn't have a problem with it in fact he bought some of them from me saying he didn't have time to look through everything that came in the store.
Now let me turn the tables on Gecko, not long ago he bought a rare 4 ounce old poured Engelhard Silver bar from someone and promptly resold it for nearly $60 an ounce to someone posting on this thread who I won't expose. If Gecko thinks that I am a thief then I must also accuse him of being a thief as he didn't disclose at the time of purchase how rare and valuable the 4 oz. bar was to the seller. >>
I DID in fact recently buy a "rare" silver bar at a B&M for his asking price of spot + $5 /oz. It was a 4 ounce Engelhard poured bar that I knew to be worth at least 3 times the seller's asking price. However, I did not ask the dealer how much silver bars were......then stack 9 common bars on top of this rare one and attempt to buy the lot, with the rare bar hidden from view. Thats the difference in the 2 scenarios Lance. What I did was cherrypick.....what you did was intentional deceit by trying to buy something of greater value by hiding it under something of lesser value.
My dealer KNEW exactly what object he was selling to me......Your dealer never got that chance because of your very dishonest approach.
<< <i>Wow, what a witchhunt. This is a truly pathetic thread. I think creating a whole thread about a quote a member said in order to rake him over the coals for it is FAR worse than anything the guy did. To keep this on topic, the guy didn't do anything wrong. The coins were all in the same bin for the same price. Who cares how he stacked them? Way to take a random quote, reveal none of the context and rip the poor guy for it. Pathetic, simply pathetic. >>
Exposing the integrity (or lack of) of our fellow members is vital in this hobby. This is not a "witchhunt", nor is it some "random quote" taken out of context (the thread is linked in one of my replies here). This is about a fellow forum member of yours who admitted to deceiving another person knowingly. You think its "pathetic", I see it as important to know. Perhaps you are of the same immoral fabric as that member and wish to defend his actions because they so closely resemble your own. Whatever your reasoning, almost 2/3rds of this forum has voted that this scenario was theft. Im troubled to discover you dont think this is worth discussing. Says alot about you as well. >>
over 2/3 voted "unethical" or "theft," but your original post is manipulative in favoring your opinion, and I doubt many who voted took the time to review this whole thread and the posts that it spawned from. You neglect to say the coins came from a single bin marked at 40c apiece, which is a major aspect in a determination whether the coins were bought ethically or not. >>
Thank you for pointing out this obvious witchhunt, as the person being unfairly accused by Gecko of theft let me explain a few things.
The dealer I bought these coins from set them aside for me as I've bought thousands of dollars in bullion over the years from him, he had seated dimes mixed in with mercury dimes and also some barber dimes. At the time I bought these coins Silver was around $5 an ounce, I have no idea why he mixed these all together but I bought probably 80% of what he had in this bucket which amounted to over $500 face of Silver dimes. I had no idea there was a better date seated dime in the batch but over the years I'd cherrypicked several overdate dimes some from this same dealer. I would tell him about these finds and he didn't have a problem with it in fact he bought some of them from me saying he didn't have time to look through everything that came in the store.
Now let me turn the tables on Gecko, not long ago he bought a rare 4 ounce old poured Engelhard Silver bar from someone and promptly resold it for nearly $60 an ounce to someone posting on this thread who I won't expose. If Gecko thinks that I am a thief then I must also accuse him of being a thief as he didn't disclose at the time of purchase how rare and valuable the 4 oz. bar was to the seller. >>
I DID in fact recently buy a "rare" silver bar at a B&M for his asking price of spot + $5 /oz. It was a 4 ounce Engelhard poured bar that I knew to be worth at least 3 times the seller's asking price. However, I did not ask the dealer how much silver bars were......then stack 9 common bars on top of this rare one and attempt to buy the lot, with the rare bar hidden from view. Thats the difference in the 2 scenarios Lance. What I did was cherrypick.....what you did was intentional deceit by trying to buy something of greater value by hiding it under something of lesser value.
My dealer KNEW exactly what object he was selling to me......Your dealer never got that chance because of your very dishonest approach. >>
No my dealer placed seated dimes, barber dimes and mercury dimes together in a bucket and I bought most of them for his asking price why is this so hard for you to understand??? At least you admitted to theft in buying the bar for much less than fair value and not disclosing it's true value to the seller.
You know gecko you really are a pathetic little man to go out of your way belittling me and calling me a thief when in reality you are the thief.
My dealer KNEW exactly what object he was selling to me......Your dealer never got that chance because of your very dishonest approach. >>
So did the dealer who sold the dimes. He was selling silver dimes he had marked at 40c each.
He had a chance to separate out any better dates when he bought the coins, a second chance when he put the coins in the bin, and he had a third chance when he sold them. It's not like a mercury dime on top of a stack somehow prevents you from checking underneath. All the dealer had to do was look at his coins. Saying he never got a chance is ludicris.
You can't blame a dealer's folly on the buyer. Both parties presumably made a profit, and both parties were presumably happy.
I don't believe you did anything wrong in buying your bar at spot+$5, and I don't believe the buyer of the dimes did anything wrong either.
<< <i>Suppose you buy a coin from a dealer and by mistake he sends not only the coin you bought but someone else's as well....At what point, if any does it become stealing or theft?
I think there is no point where it is stealing, because this was an item not asked for. I have read here that an item sent without being asked for can be kept. Of course the ethical thing to do is return the item. But I also think the right thing for the dealer to do is pay postage.
And for good measure during your diatribe you complain about how so many people get free day care while you have to pay for it and that you pay all these taxes so people that can't find work can eat.
Not coin related & should get deleted by the admin. >>
If an item was mistakenly included with an item that you did ask for then I believe that you are obligated to return the unasked for item.
Now if Littleton sends you a coin out of the blue with the expectation that you will pay for it, then you are under no obligation to return it or pay for it.
I bought roughly $500 face of dimes and the dealer set these aside for me in a big bucket as he had just bought them. I suppose it's possible that he had simply run them through the counting machine and dind't have the time to look through them, heck I don't look at many dimes anymore as it's getting to hard to see the dates and mintmarks. Over the years I've bought over twenty thousand dollars worth of coins and bullion from him and as a favor he calls me and if I want to look through them sets aside any new bullion he gets in. Look I don't have a problem with anyone here even if they label me a thief, I do however have a problem with Gecko and his vicious personal attacks on me as he is the one who started this whole ball rolling downhill in the first place. By the way what's this about Gecko's monthly cycle kicking in again??? I suppose he could always swallow some Midol.
Norseman88- Not that my opinion matters but i do not see any issue here. I can not even figue out why it was posted to start with.
Last year i bought almost 50,000 BU memorial cents for face value from a dealer. I found a few rolls of 1960 small dates and a few 70 s plus a few rolls of BU wheats in there. When i was done selling it on ebay i made about 2500 profit. THE REASON the dealer sold these to me for face was because he did not want to roll them and take them to the bank. A few months before i had taken 300 rolls of memorial cents to the bank and they told me not to bring them any more in rolls. So when i made the deal to buy the cents at face value i knew the bank would take them in bulk and not rolled and i said nothing. The dealer broght these to my attention and i paid him his asking price. ( they were in the back room)
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>I bought roughly $500 face of dimes and the dealer set these aside for me in a big bucket as he had just bought them. I suppose it's possible that he had simply run them through the counting machine and dind't have the time to look through them, heck I don't look at many dimes anymore as it's getting to hard to see the dates and mintmarks. Over the years I've bought over twenty thousand dollars worth of coins and bullion from him and as a favor he calls me and if I want to look through them sets aside any new bullion he gets in. Look I don't have a problem with anyone here even if they label me a thief, I do however have a problem with Gecko and his vicious personal attacks on me as he is the one who started this whole ball rolling downhill in the first place. By the way what's this about Gecko's monthly cycle kicking in again??? I suppose he could always swallow some Midol. >>
You tell a somewhat different story than the op, but I get it now.
Would it be theft or cherry picking if there was a 16-D or 42/1 in there? Was there a sign that said "Mercury Dimes--40 cents" Or "Dimes--40 cents" If it said Mercury dimes 40 cents and you mixed in Seated Dimes it was theft!
<< <i>WWas there a sign that said "Mercury Dimes--40 cents" Or "Dimes--40 cents" >>
I would have also expected that there would have been some cull Barber dimes in the mix if there was an intent by the seller to also include Seated dimes.
Me at the Springfield coin show: 60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Funny how the story has now changed...now there were Barbers in there as well? Sorry, but I still don't buy it. If this guy was just a peach of a dealer who let you just pick out all the stuff you wanted at 40 cents a pop...then why did you go out of your way tell everyone about how you HID the seated stuff and put Mercs on top of each stack? Why the need to HIDE anything if it was ALL 40c each regardless? Frankly I think you posted your little story expecting to get a pat on the back and a "You suck" award for your cleverness, but instead merely exposed (at a minimum) your lack of ethics. I still think the MERCS were 40 cents, nothing else, and you slipped the other pieces in there... and nothing's been said to change that assessment.
Comments
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The 'hundred post'...
Very similar.
Armed and ready since post 197.
What shocks me is 32 people on this forum think he did nothing wrong .
Dan
<< <i>I'd imagine if duplicated the scenario and replaced dollar bills for the Mercury dimes and ten dollar bills for the Seated dimes and then completed your example the evidence of wrong doing would be seen in more stark relief. >>
huh?
<< <i>I'm a little slow , I just seen this tread and voted.......
What shocks me is 32 people on this forum think he did nothing wrong .
Dan
Don't be shocked. And tell me, what exactly did the person do wrong?
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm a little slow , I just seen this tread and voted.......
What shocks me is 32 people on this forum think he did nothing wrong .
Dan
Don't be shocked. And tell me, what exactly did the person do wrong? >>
<< <i>Excerpt from another board member:
"One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. "
Seems like theft to me. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm a little slow , I just seen this tread and voted.......
What shocks me is 32 people on this forum think he did nothing wrong .
Dan
Don't be shocked. And tell me, what exactly did the person do wrong? >>
<< <i>Excerpt from another board member:
"One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. "
Seems like theft to me. >>
>>
I know that. Which part of the relevant statements shows that the person actually did something wrong?
If hiding something as to not raise the possibility of the seller hiking the selling price, as has been mentioned by the buyer, then yes, he did something wrong.
Have you never snuck something into the house, or a room? Have you never done something that you did not want others to notice?
Does this absolutely mean you're a thief, or liar, or some other law breaker.
All I'm saying is with the facts I know, I am not prepared to call the guy a thief.
Doing so is a very slippery slope IMO.
I've "snuck" some junk food into the shopping cart when my girlfriend wasn't looking, but I paid for it...I didn't put in 2 items and just pay for one, and I didn't steal it from the store.
For me it all goes back to the fact that he felt the need to HIDE something from the seller. I don't care if it is a coin dealer, swap meet, or freaking Walmart. An innocent person who feels they are doing nothing wrong simply doesn't purposely hide things like that. Period.
Call me naive, old fashioned, whatever, but I have some fairly cut and dried views on the ethics of this. You go to the grocery store and buy a pound of grapes, candy, nails, whatever, you don't slip an extra half pound in the bag. That's theft. You go to a coin store (or wherever the heck this was, doesn't matter) and the guy says Merc dimes 40c each, you buy Merc dimes, not Seated, ESPECIALLY when you know damn good and well they are worth more and don't belong in there. If they are in there, you tell him, and maybe you'll get rewarded for your honesty. Otherwise, you're stealing from the guy. Period. I don't do business that way, on either side of the counter...and I want no part of anyone who does, or who condones such activity.
Even given only the facts I know...the true "slippery slope" is saying or inferring that what this guy did was acceptable...
I've never been a fan of moral relativism. At a minimum it's unethical, at a maximum, theft by deception.
PS...even when junk dimes were 40c, seated dimes were worth substantially more...and nothing's been said of the condition of the coins involved to my knowledge. Is it OK to rip the guy off if they're only AG or G? VG? F? What's the cutoff point with grade, where one can rip such things and still sleep at night?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
At this point, the buyer can come to one of only two conclusions- either the seller intended to sell the seated dimes for the same price as the mercurys, or he didn't. If the buyer thinks the seller intended to sell both for the same price, there would be no reason to arrange the coins in any specific manner after picking them out of the box.
"...so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10."
Apparently, though, the buyer felt the need to stack the coins such that the seated dimes were not in view before making his purchase.
I suppose a conclusion could be made based on that. Or not.
<< <i>PS...even when junk dimes were 40c, seated dimes were worth substantially more... >>
I have been going to coin shops since the mid 60s and have never seen seated & mercury dimes mixed together for the same price. Not proof of anything, of course- just an observation.
I wonder what the reaction would be to a coin dealer who posted here about the old guy who came into the shop with a bunch of dimes, asked "What do you pay for loose silver?" and received an offer from the dealer of actual melt value for a mixed bag of mercury and seated dimes.
On second thought- no, I don't wonder at all. Even if it happened a long time ago.
They come across a coin mislabeled, & instead of a fairly common coin it is actually one of the keys to the series.
This coin is worth hundreds more.
The buyer never says anything, doesn't hide it, but buys more and gives them to the seller.
Seller never spots the mistake, and the sale completed.
Unethical or stealing?
<< <i>So what do you guys think of someone going through 2x2 at the B&M.
They come across a coin mislabeled, & instead of a fairly common coin it is actually one of the keys to the series.
This coin is worth hundreds more.
The buyer never says anything, doesn't hide it, but buys more and gives them to the seller.
Seller never spots the mistake, and the sale completed.
Unethical or stealing? >>
If "Seller" is a dealer, then he should know better. And I expect that's your argurment with regards to the "Seller" mixing in a bunch of Seated Liberty dimes amongst his $0.40 Mercury Dime junk silver.
The difference between your proposed 2X2 scenario and the HIDE the SLDs under the stack of Mercs is intent. IT was the intent of the SLD buyer to hide from the "Seller" the SLDs. In your 2X2 scenario the Buyer is performing his 'rip' in plain sight.
The SLDs is indeed Theft by Deception. The 2X2 in plain sight is just an unawares Seller. And if done in plain sight, no crime or intent to deceive has been committed.
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>
<< <i>If this has already been posted to this thread, please forgive me. I didn't have time to read all 10 pages
I say Theft! Specifically "Theft by Deception" Read further for a legal definition.
<< <i>Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. >>
>>
WE HAVE A WINNER!
"(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or " >>
You can't be serious. All the dealer had to do was look at his coins. There was no "prevention," just ignorance and a lack of patience on the side of the dealer; he didn't even take the time to look at what he was selling.
Honestly, if you believe this person has committed a crime by paying a dealer his full asking price... then I don't know what to say. I can understand if someone thinks it's unethical (although I would disagree), but this case is would never hold water in a legal situation.
It Does Here
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If this has already been posted to this thread, please forgive me. I didn't have time to read all 10 pages
I say Theft! Specifically "Theft by Deception" Read further for a legal definition.
<< <i>Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. >>
>>
WE HAVE A WINNER!
"(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or " >>
You can't be serious. All the dealer had to do was look at his coins. There was no "prevention," just ignorance and a lack of patience on the side of the dealer; he didn't even take the time to look at what he was selling.
Honestly, if you believe this person has committed a crime by paying a dealer his full asking price... then I don't know what to say. I can understand if someone thinks it's unethical (although I would disagree), but this case is would never hold water in a legal situation. >>
Goldeneye, even though the dealer was "oblivious" isn't necessarily a defense in this case. If we assume that the OPs facts are determined in a court of law to be fact, then the decisive point is whether or not, in this case, the buyer "intended" to "deceive" the seller. The simple act of burying the SLDs beneath the mercs is sufficient to establish deciet in this case and thus a jury would have to conclude that the buyer commited fraud in the essence of "theft by deception". To interpret otherwise, is to ignore the facts in this case.
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>
Goldeneye, even though the dealer was "oblivious" isn't necessarily a defense in this case. If we assume that the OPs facts are determined in a court of law to be fact, then the decisive point is whether or not, in this case, the buyer "intended" to "deceive" the seller. The simple act of burying the SLDs beneath the mercs is sufficient to establish deciet in this case and thus a jury would have to conclude that the buyer commited fraud in the essence of "theft by deception". To interpret otherwise, is to ignore the facts in this case. >>
Yes, but there needs to be a crime to be committed in the first place. If the SLDs were in the same pricing bin as the Mercs, the buyer can use that as a positive defense (or whatever you call it). The problem occurs if the SLDs either (1) were not in the same pricing bin as the Mercs, or (2) there is reasonable evidence to believe that the SLDs were put in the wrong bin and that the buyer knew about it. I'm not sure that I see either (1) or (2).
Furthermore, note how the buyer used the word "put" instead of "hid". This could mean anything, including using that method for simplicity of sorting. For example, I put the seated dimes at the bottom because it would be easier for me to sort them ...
And, why at the bottom then? Why not at the middle? The middle would work just as well, if not better.
See if they remember putting seated in with mercs and if the price would have been the same.
If the dealer would NEVER have done that, they would say so. If they have to think about it, then it was likely a mistake or error by someone.
Enough of this thread that doesn't have all the facts but people want to suppose and make assumptions. Just call the flippin' dealer.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Someone just find out which flippin' dealer it was and call them.
See if they remember putting seated in with mercs and if the price would have been the same.
If the dealer would NEVER have done that, they would say so. If they have to think about it, then it was likely a mistake or error by someone.
Enough of this thread that doesn't have all the facts but people want to suppose and make assumptions. Just call the flippin' dealer. >>
Here Here
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If this has already been posted to this thread, please forgive me. I didn't have time to read all 10 pages
I say Theft! Specifically "Theft by Deception" Read further for a legal definition.
<< <i>Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. >>
>>
WE HAVE A WINNER!
"(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or " >>
You can't be serious. All the dealer had to do was look at his coins. There was no "prevention," just ignorance and a lack of patience on the side of the dealer; he didn't even take the time to look at what he was selling.
Honestly, if you believe this person has committed a crime by paying a dealer his full asking price... then I don't know what to say. I can understand if someone thinks it's unethical (although I would disagree), but this case is would never hold water in a legal situation. >>
Goldeneye, even though the dealer was "oblivious" isn't necessarily a defense in this case. If we assume that the OPs facts are determined in a court of law to be fact, then the decisive point is whether or not, in this case, the buyer "intended" to "deceive" the seller. The simple act of burying the SLDs beneath the mercs is sufficient to establish deciet in this case and thus a jury would have to conclude that the buyer commited fraud in the essence of "theft by deception". To interpret otherwise, is to ignore the facts in this case. >>
Whether or not he intended to deceive the seller is entirely irrelevant, because deception is a description of a type of theft, and not theft in itself. Was there a degree of deception in the buyer's actions? To a certain extent, yes. However, that doesn't make it theft. The law does not apply because everything was paid for at the price that the dealer established. Since the dealer had priced the coins in the bin at 40c apiece, then we know the dealer either examined the coins or (conciously or unconciously) assumed the risk of selling them without fully inventorying his junk silver.
You then demand that the seller send you 3.00 before you send it back and then when the seller does not reply
within 2 hours you create a thread and claim if the seller does not send the 3.00 you will either keep the coin or throw it away.
You further state that you are not a warehouse and can't keep other peoples mistakes as they take up to much of your space.
At what point, if any does it become stealing or theft? And for good measure during your diatribe you complain about how
so many people get free day care while you have to pay for it and that you pay all these taxes so people that can't find work can eat.
Edited to add: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=726474&STARTPAGE=1
Steve
If memory serves, the dealer would get a "you suck", so why shouldn't the customer get the same?
No, I wouldn't do it, but double standards seem to come up on this board from time to time....
<< <i>Suppose you buy a coin from a dealer and by mistake he sends not only the coin you bought but someone else's as well.
You then demand that the seller send you 3.00 before you send it back and then when the seller does not reply
within 2 hours you create a thread and claim if the seller does not send the 3.00 you will either keep the coin or throw it away.
You further state that you are not a warehouse and can't keep other peoples mistakes as they take up to much of your space.
At what point, if any does it become stealing or theft? And for good measure during your diatribe you complain about how
so many people get free day care while you have to pay for it and that you pay all these taxes so people that can't find work can eat.
Edited to add: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=726474&STARTPAGE=1
Steve >>
I would say such a buyer is a total ass.
Steve
I think there is no point where it is stealing, because this was an item not asked for.
I have read here that an item sent without being asked for can be kept.
Of course the ethical thing to do is return the item.
But I also think the right thing for the dealer to do is pay postage.
And for good measure during your diatribe you complain about how so many people get free day care while you have to pay for it and that you pay all these taxes so people that can't find work can eat.
Not coin related & should get deleted by the admin.
<< <i>Really? I thought the buyer was the ass.
Steve >>
Ooops, I meant buyer, who is also a major league cheapskate.
Utah deserts. Robbers Roost region.
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
<< <i>All the coins came out of the same 40 cent bin...No theft.. The seller wanted 40 cents for them, no matter how they were stacked. >>
Hmmm. I disagree. In fact the evidence points to the contrary. Here is the exchange in question, salient parts in bold:
One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. >>
Thats borderline theft.....come on man. >>
Why is it theft? They were mixed in with the Mercury dimes priced at 40 cents each, this was a long time ago when Silver was around $5 an oz. I picked out as many of the seated dimes as I could find and placed them under the Merc's he counted the piles of 10 and I paid him what he asked, I didn't know there was a key date seated dime until I got home. I've also picked 7-42/1-D and 1-42/1 mercury dimes out of bags of Silver I bought do you also consider cherrypicking these coins as stealing too???
-----------------------------------
Note in the bold passages the buyer acknowledges he was buying MERCURY dimes...he also admits hiding the Seated dimes and placing Mercs atop each stack, and that the seller counted the PILES. Now, it certainly is no stretch to say that the seller, having been asked about Mercury dimes and then presented with stacks of 10 with a Merc atop each stack...would assume that all were Mercury dimes. And this was obviously what the buyer was hoping for when he made his little "stacked decks".
Now I ask you all... is this more likely the act of someone who a)was told that ALL DIMES were 40 cents each (in which case it didn't matter how the coins were stacked, right?), or b) was told that MERCURY DIMES were 40 cents each, saw the Seated in there, and decided to pull a fast one by hiding them in the stacks with a Merc on top to give the illusion that all were Mercs?
IMO the slam dunk answer is B.
This reminds me of a time when a part time dealer brought some Indian Cents into our store a few years ago that he wanted to spin off. At that time we were paying maybe 70c each for low end circ commons. As I was going through them to determine what was in there, he stated "My wife said one of them looks like they plated it with something"... when I got to the coin in question, it was in fact a $2 1/2 Indian gold coin. Now, following the logic here I should have just said nothing, put it in one of the stacks of coins that I was counting and just paid 70c for it... but I chose to be honest and made the guy's day for him to the tune of an extra $150. He was happy, and I was happy later when I made $40 on the piece.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>All the coins came out of the same 40 cent bin...No theft.. The seller wanted 40 cents for them, no matter how they were stacked. >>
Hmmm. I disagree. In fact the evidence points to the contrary. Here is the exchange in question, salient parts in bold:
One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. >>
Thats borderline theft.....come on man. >>
Why is it theft? They were mixed in with the Mercury dimes priced at 40 cents each, this was a long time ago when Silver was around $5 an oz. I picked out as many of the seated dimes as I could find and placed them under the Merc's he counted the piles of 10 and I paid him what he asked, I didn't know there was a key date seated dime until I got home. I've also picked 7-42/1-D and 1-42/1 mercury dimes out of bags of Silver I bought do you also consider cherrypicking these coins as stealing too???
-----------------------------------
Note in the bold passages the buyer acknowledges he was buying MERCURY dimes...he also admits hiding the Seated dimes and placing Mercs atop each stack, and that the seller counted the PILES. Now, it certainly is no stretch to say that the seller, having been asked about Mercury dimes and then presented with stacks of 10 with a Merc atop each stack...would assume that all were Mercury dimes. And this was obviously what the buyer was hoping for when he made his little "stacked decks".
Now I ask you all... is this more likely the act of someone who a)was told that ALL DIMES were 40 cents each (in which case it didn't matter how the coins were stacked, right?), or b) was told that MERCURY DIMES were 40 cents each, saw the Seated in there, and decided to pull a fast one by hiding them in the stacks with a Merc on top to give the illusion that all were Mercs?
IMO the slam dunk answer is B.
This reminds me of a time when a part time dealer brought some Indian Cents into our store a few years ago that he wanted to spin off. At that time we were paying maybe 70c each for low end circ commons. As I was going through them to determine what was in there, he stated "My wife said one of them looks like they plated it with something"... when I got to the coin in question, it was in fact a $2 1/2 Indian gold coin. Now, following the logic here I should have just said nothing, put it in one of the stacks of coins that I was counting and just paid 70c for it... but I chose to be honest and made the guy's day for him to the tune of an extra $150. He was happy, and I was happy later when I made $40 on the piece. >>
I was under the impression he was just buying from a bin of dimes marked at 40c. If both parties established that the price was 40c apiece ONLY for the mercs, then that changes things a lot. If it was just a bin marked at 40c, then I stand by my original opinion.
Editted to add: after viewing the original thread the OP was taken from, I stand by my initial opinion. The coins did come from a bin priced at 40c apiece.
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, what a witchhunt. This is a truly pathetic thread. I think creating a whole thread about a quote a member said in order to rake him over the coals for it is FAR worse than anything the guy did.
To keep this on topic, the guy didn't do anything wrong. The coins were all in the same bin for the same price. Who cares how he stacked them? Way to take a random quote, reveal none of the context and rip the poor guy for it. Pathetic, simply pathetic. >>
Exposing the integrity (or lack of) of our fellow members is vital in this hobby. This is not a "witchhunt", nor is it some "random quote" taken out of context (the thread is linked in one of my replies here). This is about a fellow forum member of yours who admitted to deceiving another person knowingly. You think its "pathetic", I see it as important to know. Perhaps you are of the same immoral fabric as that member and wish to defend his actions because they so closely resemble your own. Whatever your reasoning, almost 2/3rds of this forum has voted that this scenario was theft. Im troubled to discover you dont think this is worth discussing. Says alot about you as well. >>
over 2/3 voted "unethical" or "theft," but your original post is manipulative in favoring your opinion, and I doubt many who voted took the time to review this whole thread and the posts that it spawned from. You neglect to say the coins came from a single bin marked at 40c apiece, which is a major aspect in a determination whether the coins were bought ethically or not.
<< <i>
<< <i>All the coins came out of the same 40 cent bin...No theft.. The seller wanted 40 cents for them, no matter how they were stacked. >>
Hmmm. I disagree. In fact the evidence points to the contrary. Here is the exchange in question, salient parts in bold:
One time I was buying Mercury dimes and there were a bunch of seated dimes mixed in so I put them on the bottom of the Mercs I was stacking in piles of 10. I didn't count them at the time but when I got home I had bought nearly 60 Seated dimes for 40 cents each and included in this group was an 1885-S although it was only an AG-3, still I traded it in on a nice XF 1942/1 dime. >>
Thats borderline theft.....come on man. >>
Why is it theft? They were mixed in with the Mercury dimes priced at 40 cents each, this was a long time ago when Silver was around $5 an oz. I picked out as many of the seated dimes as I could find and placed them under the Merc's he counted the piles of 10 and I paid him what he asked, I didn't know there was a key date seated dime until I got home. I've also picked 7-42/1-D and 1-42/1 mercury dimes out of bags of Silver I bought do you also consider cherrypicking these coins as stealing too???
-----------------------------------
Note in the bold passages the buyer acknowledges he was buying MERCURY dimes...he also admits hiding the Seated dimes and placing Mercs atop each stack, and that the seller counted the PILES. Now, it certainly is no stretch to say that the seller, having been asked about Mercury dimes and then presented with stacks of 10 with a Merc atop each stack...would assume that all were Mercury dimes. And this was obviously what the buyer was hoping for when he made his little "stacked decks".
Now I ask you all... is this more likely the act of someone who a)was told that ALL DIMES were 40 cents each (in which case it didn't matter how the coins were stacked, right?), or b) was told that MERCURY DIMES were 40 cents each, saw the Seated in there, and decided to pull a fast one by hiding them in the stacks with a Merc on top to give the illusion that all were Mercs?
IMO the slam dunk answer is B.
This reminds me of a time when a part time dealer brought some Indian Cents into our store a few years ago that he wanted to spin off. At that time we were paying maybe 70c each for low end circ commons. As I was going through them to determine what was in there, he stated "My wife said one of them looks like they plated it with something"... when I got to the coin in question, it was in fact a $2 1/2 Indian gold coin. Now, following the logic here I should have just said nothing, put it in one of the stacks of coins that I was counting and just paid 70c for it... but I chose to be honest and made the guy's day for him to the tune of an extra $150. He was happy, and I was happy later when I made $40 on the piece. >>
POTD, at least as far as this thread is concerned!
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, what a witchhunt. This is a truly pathetic thread. I think creating a whole thread about a quote a member said in order to rake him over the coals for it is FAR worse than anything the guy did.
To keep this on topic, the guy didn't do anything wrong. The coins were all in the same bin for the same price. Who cares how he stacked them? Way to take a random quote, reveal none of the context and rip the poor guy for it. Pathetic, simply pathetic. >>
Exposing the integrity (or lack of) of our fellow members is vital in this hobby. This is not a "witchhunt", nor is it some "random quote" taken out of context (the thread is linked in one of my replies here). This is about a fellow forum member of yours who admitted to deceiving another person knowingly. You think its "pathetic", I see it as important to know. Perhaps you are of the same immoral fabric as that member and wish to defend his actions because they so closely resemble your own. Whatever your reasoning, almost 2/3rds of this forum has voted that this scenario was theft. Im troubled to discover you dont think this is worth discussing. Says alot about you as well. >>
over 2/3 voted "unethical" or "theft," but your original post is manipulative in favoring your opinion, and I doubt many who voted took the time to review this whole thread and the posts that it spawned from. You neglect to say the coins came from a single bin marked at 40c apiece, which is a major aspect in a determination whether the coins were bought ethically or not. >>
Thank you for pointing out this obvious witchhunt, as the person being unfairly accused by Gecko of theft let me explain a few things.
The dealer I bought these coins from set them aside for me as I've bought thousands of dollars in bullion over the years from him, he had seated dimes mixed in with mercury dimes and also some barber dimes. At the time I bought these coins Silver was around $5 an ounce, I have no idea why he mixed these all together but I bought probably 80% of what he had in this bucket which amounted to over $500 face of Silver dimes. I had no idea there was a better date seated dime in the batch but over the years I'd cherrypicked several overdate dimes some from this same dealer. I would tell him about these finds and he didn't have a problem with it in fact he bought some of them from me saying he didn't have time to look through everything that came in the store.
Now let me turn the tables on Gecko, not long ago he bought a rare 4 ounce old poured Engelhard Silver bar from someone and promptly resold it for nearly $60 an ounce to someone posting on this thread who I won't expose. If Gecko thinks that I am a thief then I must also accuse him of being a thief as he didn't disclose at the time of purchase how rare and valuable the 4 oz. bar was to the seller.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, what a witchhunt. This is a truly pathetic thread. I think creating a whole thread about a quote a member said in order to rake him over the coals for it is FAR worse than anything the guy did.
To keep this on topic, the guy didn't do anything wrong. The coins were all in the same bin for the same price. Who cares how he stacked them? Way to take a random quote, reveal none of the context and rip the poor guy for it. Pathetic, simply pathetic. >>
Exposing the integrity (or lack of) of our fellow members is vital in this hobby. This is not a "witchhunt", nor is it some "random quote" taken out of context (the thread is linked in one of my replies here). This is about a fellow forum member of yours who admitted to deceiving another person knowingly. You think its "pathetic", I see it as important to know. Perhaps you are of the same immoral fabric as that member and wish to defend his actions because they so closely resemble your own. Whatever your reasoning, almost 2/3rds of this forum has voted that this scenario was theft. Im troubled to discover you dont think this is worth discussing. Says alot about you as well. >>
over 2/3 voted "unethical" or "theft," but your original post is manipulative in favoring your opinion, and I doubt many who voted took the time to review this whole thread and the posts that it spawned from. You neglect to say the coins came from a single bin marked at 40c apiece, which is a major aspect in a determination whether the coins were bought ethically or not. >>
Thank you for pointing out this obvious witchhunt, as the person being unfairly accused by Gecko of theft let me explain a few things.
The dealer I bought these coins from set them aside for me as I've bought thousands of dollars in bullion over the years from him, he had seated dimes mixed in with mercury dimes and also some barber dimes. At the time I bought these coins Silver was around $5 an ounce, I have no idea why he mixed these all together but I bought probably 80% of what he had in this bucket which amounted to over $500 face of Silver dimes. I had no idea there was a better date seated dime in the batch but over the years I'd cherrypicked several overdate dimes some from this same dealer. I would tell him about these finds and he didn't have a problem with it in fact he bought some of them from me saying he didn't have time to look through everything that came in the store.
Now let me turn the tables on Gecko, not long ago he bought a rare 4 ounce old poured Engelhard Silver bar from someone and promptly resold it for nearly $60 an ounce to someone posting on this thread who I won't expose. If Gecko thinks that I am a thief then I must also accuse him of being a thief as he didn't disclose at the time of purchase how rare and valuable the 4 oz. bar was to the seller. >>
OK. Fair enough. Gecko outed you so why not retaliate. You deserve it.
But I am curious as to why you "put the SLDs in the stacks underneath the Mercs" intentionally. Or is that not true?
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, what a witchhunt. This is a truly pathetic thread. I think creating a whole thread about a quote a member said in order to rake him over the coals for it is FAR worse than anything the guy did.
To keep this on topic, the guy didn't do anything wrong. The coins were all in the same bin for the same price. Who cares how he stacked them? Way to take a random quote, reveal none of the context and rip the poor guy for it. Pathetic, simply pathetic. >>
Exposing the integrity (or lack of) of our fellow members is vital in this hobby. This is not a "witchhunt", nor is it some "random quote" taken out of context (the thread is linked in one of my replies here). This is about a fellow forum member of yours who admitted to deceiving another person knowingly. You think its "pathetic", I see it as important to know. Perhaps you are of the same immoral fabric as that member and wish to defend his actions because they so closely resemble your own. Whatever your reasoning, almost 2/3rds of this forum has voted that this scenario was theft. Im troubled to discover you dont think this is worth discussing. Says alot about you as well. >>
over 2/3 voted "unethical" or "theft," but your original post is manipulative in favoring your opinion, and I doubt many who voted took the time to review this whole thread and the posts that it spawned from. You neglect to say the coins came from a single bin marked at 40c apiece, which is a major aspect in a determination whether the coins were bought ethically or not. >>
Thank you for pointing out this obvious witchhunt, as the person being unfairly accused by Gecko of theft let me explain a few things.
The dealer I bought these coins from set them aside for me as I've bought thousands of dollars in bullion over the years from him, he had seated dimes mixed in with mercury dimes and also some barber dimes. At the time I bought these coins Silver was around $5 an ounce, I have no idea why he mixed these all together but I bought probably 80% of what he had in this bucket which amounted to over $500 face of Silver dimes. I had no idea there was a better date seated dime in the batch but over the years I'd cherrypicked several overdate dimes some from this same dealer. I would tell him about these finds and he didn't have a problem with it in fact he bought some of them from me saying he didn't have time to look through everything that came in the store.
Now let me turn the tables on Gecko, not long ago he bought a rare 4 ounce old poured Engelhard Silver bar from someone and promptly resold it for nearly $60 an ounce to someone posting on this thread who I won't expose. If Gecko thinks that I am a thief then I must also accuse him of being a thief as he didn't disclose at the time of purchase how rare and valuable the 4 oz. bar was to the seller. >>
I DID in fact recently buy a "rare" silver bar at a B&M for his asking price of spot + $5 /oz. It was a 4 ounce Engelhard poured bar that I knew to be worth at least 3 times the seller's asking price. However, I did not ask the dealer how much silver bars were......then stack 9 common bars on top of this rare one and attempt to buy the lot, with the rare bar hidden from view. Thats the difference in the 2 scenarios Lance. What I did was cherrypick.....what you did was intentional deceit by trying to buy something of greater value by hiding it under something of lesser value.
My dealer KNEW exactly what object he was selling to me......Your dealer never got that chance because of your very dishonest approach.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, what a witchhunt. This is a truly pathetic thread. I think creating a whole thread about a quote a member said in order to rake him over the coals for it is FAR worse than anything the guy did.
To keep this on topic, the guy didn't do anything wrong. The coins were all in the same bin for the same price. Who cares how he stacked them? Way to take a random quote, reveal none of the context and rip the poor guy for it. Pathetic, simply pathetic. >>
Exposing the integrity (or lack of) of our fellow members is vital in this hobby. This is not a "witchhunt", nor is it some "random quote" taken out of context (the thread is linked in one of my replies here). This is about a fellow forum member of yours who admitted to deceiving another person knowingly. You think its "pathetic", I see it as important to know. Perhaps you are of the same immoral fabric as that member and wish to defend his actions because they so closely resemble your own. Whatever your reasoning, almost 2/3rds of this forum has voted that this scenario was theft. Im troubled to discover you dont think this is worth discussing. Says alot about you as well. >>
over 2/3 voted "unethical" or "theft," but your original post is manipulative in favoring your opinion, and I doubt many who voted took the time to review this whole thread and the posts that it spawned from. You neglect to say the coins came from a single bin marked at 40c apiece, which is a major aspect in a determination whether the coins were bought ethically or not. >>
Thank you for pointing out this obvious witchhunt, as the person being unfairly accused by Gecko of theft let me explain a few things.
The dealer I bought these coins from set them aside for me as I've bought thousands of dollars in bullion over the years from him, he had seated dimes mixed in with mercury dimes and also some barber dimes. At the time I bought these coins Silver was around $5 an ounce, I have no idea why he mixed these all together but I bought probably 80% of what he had in this bucket which amounted to over $500 face of Silver dimes. I had no idea there was a better date seated dime in the batch but over the years I'd cherrypicked several overdate dimes some from this same dealer. I would tell him about these finds and he didn't have a problem with it in fact he bought some of them from me saying he didn't have time to look through everything that came in the store.
Now let me turn the tables on Gecko, not long ago he bought a rare 4 ounce old poured Engelhard Silver bar from someone and promptly resold it for nearly $60 an ounce to someone posting on this thread who I won't expose. If Gecko thinks that I am a thief then I must also accuse him of being a thief as he didn't disclose at the time of purchase how rare and valuable the 4 oz. bar was to the seller. >>
I DID in fact recently buy a "rare" silver bar at a B&M for his asking price of spot + $5 /oz. It was a 4 ounce Engelhard poured bar that I knew to be worth at least 3 times the seller's asking price. However, I did not ask the dealer how much silver bars were......then stack 9 common bars on top of this rare one and attempt to buy the lot, with the rare bar hidden from view. Thats the difference in the 2 scenarios Lance. What I did was cherrypick.....what you did was intentional deceit by trying to buy something of greater value by hiding it under something of lesser value.
My dealer KNEW exactly what object he was selling to me......Your dealer never got that chance because of your very dishonest approach. >>
No my dealer placed seated dimes, barber dimes and mercury dimes together in a bucket and I bought most of them for his asking price why is this so hard for you to understand???
At least you admitted to theft in buying the bar for much less than fair value and not disclosing it's true value to the seller.
You know gecko you really are a pathetic little man to go out of your way belittling me and calling me a thief when in reality you are the thief.
<< <i>
My dealer KNEW exactly what object he was selling to me......Your dealer never got that chance because of your very dishonest approach. >>
So did the dealer who sold the dimes. He was selling silver dimes he had marked at 40c each.
He had a chance to separate out any better dates when he bought the coins, a second chance when he put the coins in the bin, and he had a third chance when he sold them. It's not like a mercury dime on top of a stack somehow prevents you from checking underneath. All the dealer had to do was look at his coins. Saying he never got a chance is ludicris.
You can't blame a dealer's folly on the buyer. Both parties presumably made a profit, and both parties were presumably happy.
I don't believe you did anything wrong in buying your bar at spot+$5, and I don't believe the buyer of the dimes did anything wrong either.
<< <i>Suppose you buy a coin from a dealer and by mistake he sends not only the coin you bought but someone else's as well....At what point, if any does it become stealing or theft?
I think there is no point where it is stealing, because this was an item not asked for.
I have read here that an item sent without being asked for can be kept.
Of course the ethical thing to do is return the item.
But I also think the right thing for the dealer to do is pay postage.
And for good measure during your diatribe you complain about how so many people get free day care while you have to pay for it and that you pay all these taxes so people that can't find work can eat.
Not coin related & should get deleted by the admin. >>
If an item was mistakenly included with an item that you did ask for then I believe that you are obligated to return the unasked for item.
Now if Littleton sends you a coin out of the blue with the expectation that you will pay for it, then you are under no obligation to return it or pay for it.
<< <i>Need a Criminal Lawyer?
Find A Lawyer Specializing In Your Legal Issue - Search FindLaw.com. >>
I suppose it's possible that he had simply run them through the counting machine and dind't have the time to look through them, heck I don't look at many dimes anymore as it's getting to hard to see the dates and mintmarks.
Over the years I've bought over twenty thousand dollars worth of coins and bullion from him and as a favor he calls me and if I want to look through them sets aside any new bullion he gets in.
Look I don't have a problem with anyone here even if they label me a thief, I do however have a problem with Gecko and his vicious personal attacks on me as he is the one who started this whole ball rolling downhill in the first place. By the way what's this about Gecko's monthly cycle kicking in again??? I suppose he could always swallow some Midol.
Last year i bought almost 50,000 BU memorial cents for face value from a dealer. I found a few rolls of 1960 small dates and a few 70 s plus a few rolls of BU wheats in there. When i was done selling it on ebay i made about 2500 profit. THE REASON the dealer sold these to me for face was because he did not want to roll them and take them to the bank. A few months before i had taken 300 rolls of memorial cents to the bank and they told me not to bring them any more in rolls. So when i made the deal to buy the cents at face value i knew the bank would take them in bulk and not rolled and i said nothing. The dealer broght these to my attention and i paid him his asking price. ( they were in the back room)
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>I bought roughly $500 face of dimes and the dealer set these aside for me in a big bucket as he had just bought them.
I suppose it's possible that he had simply run them through the counting machine and dind't have the time to look through them, heck I don't look at many dimes anymore as it's getting to hard to see the dates and mintmarks.
Over the years I've bought over twenty thousand dollars worth of coins and bullion from him and as a favor he calls me and if I want to look through them sets aside any new bullion he gets in.
Look I don't have a problem with anyone here even if they label me a thief, I do however have a problem with Gecko and his vicious personal attacks on me as he is the one who started this whole ball rolling downhill in the first place. By the way what's this about Gecko's monthly cycle kicking in again??? I suppose he could always swallow some Midol.
You tell a somewhat different story than the op, but I get it now.
This is a helluva place
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Lafayette Grading Set
<< <i>WWas there a sign that said "Mercury Dimes--40 cents" Or "Dimes--40 cents" >>
I would have also expected that there would have been some cull Barber dimes in the mix if there was an intent by the seller to also include Seated dimes.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
RIP Mom- 1932-2012