<< <i>In order to prove theft you must show intent, and in this case I think you have the intent as he placed them on the bottom in order to avoid detection. >>
Yes, but you also need to show that the item was actually stolen.
<< <i>In order to prove theft you must show intent, and in this case I think you have the intent as he placed them on the bottom in order to avoid detection. >>
Yes, but you also need to show that the item was actually stolen. >>
Just got a burglary case filed, the guy went into a Walmart opened up a locked case containing cameras. He never made it out of the store but based on the security video and the statements from the loss prevention staff his "INTENT" was clearly shown. The property never got out of the store but he now faces felony charges. >>
Except in this case, the dealer had a price tag on the coins, and the buyer paid exactly that amount.
"it's close to theft". WOW, try growing a backbone!!! That's like being a bit pregnant!!!!
Make a descision for once in your life. You guys are unbelievable!!!! Americans murder over 22,000 people "EVERY YEAR" just with handguns and you can't grow a pair and state an honest opinion??????
The seller put them all in a container and the customer bought a number of them at the advertised price!!! Which part of this don't you get???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
<< <i>I put "Very unethical at the very least" because the dealer should make sure of what he/she is selling.
Its close to theft. >>
This makes no sense at all. >>
OK let me clarify:
I think that its the dealers responsibility to know what items he is selling to the customers. I also think it is the moral responsibility of the customer to not knowingly try to deceive a dealer in such a manner.
I wasn't going to post here again, but something happened today that I thought needed sharing as wonder what those that said the buyer had an obligation to tell the seller that these coins were obviously worth more.
I swear this was unintentional, but....
I listed some (more) silver today, breaking them down by series & denominations. Most were right around melt (12x), but I found that I had a few 'key' date Franklins (well, how about better date Franklins). I separated those & listed them separately. I was thinking I would list them for $10 each, but instead I calculated them at 10x each! My listing clearly said "Better Date Franklins" and proceeded to list the few dates.
Clearly i would want more than the common dates I had for 12x face.....and these were only 10x face.
Within 15 minutes I had multiple PMs. Guess how many PM'ed me asking if what I wanted for these better dates was a mistake?
You're Right!! Should I name names to out these 'scumbags'?
To Boothill40, you seem reasonable, think this over.......
"The seller never noticed so you have no crime,...." No crime...... .....however I go back to the buyers intent by concealing the coins on the bottom hoping they would not be noticed. He has already stated that he did not want to seller to see them for fear that he would change the price, NOT that the coins were in the wrong bin. And if there are 60 in that bin, hard to believe that all those were there on accident. PLUS, finding that 1885-S in a bin, ANY bin where customers could freely handle them, leads me to believe that the seller never checked what he had.....he just did not care. Alot of crimes are crimes of op(po)rtunity this may have just been another. Maybe, maybe not. Not enough facts. And in the country I come from a person is innocent until proven guilty.
I'm late to this post and voted unethical. Simply hope I never have a dealing with this person as they give the hobby a bad name.
Gerry Fortin's Rare American Coins Online Storefront and Liberty Seated Dime Varieties Web- Book www.SeatedDimeVarieties.com Buying and Selling all Seated Denominations....
Give it a little more time... it is still only 5:30am on the West Coast
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
No I would not arrest in this case but still stand that the buyers actions lean towards theft Boothill40, I'll agree that it may look suspicious. Will you agree that there is a possibility that he just did not want the seller to change his mind on the selling price even though the Seated Dimes were in the same bin as Mercurys?
Still no guesses on how many members that PM'ed me on the 'better date' Franklins that my price may have been wrong, wonder why?
OH, and Boothill40, hope your night, and nights to come, was a safe one. My Father-in-law was Chief in Carpinteria, Ca.
<------- waiting for (doctor) Phil to add another answer in the poll :
Should the buyer submit the alleged thefts to PCGS for grading or submit this story to Oprah for review as a possible show for the housewives of the world to judge ?
i love the drama created by the questions, but the fun is in the game.
That's this guy's View.
Somewhere it's written : judge not, lest ye be... "mistaken for Judy. "
So, if it's a junk silver sale. 40c each and the mix is there.....
What is the problem?
I bought some coins as a kid in a "Any 10 coins for $ 1.00" - Looked like mostly buffalo nickels, old wheaties, a few hammered indian head cents and lots of foreign coins.
I asked the guy if that was accurate....Yes, Kid thats correct.
I bought 20 coins. 10 were Large Cents and the rest mostly buffalo nickels and a couple of wheat 1c.
Now I really had to dig to get those, but the guy did not care.
He said he hoped it helped my collection. Best $ 2.00 I ever spent.
Did you change your mind, or did you sell them for the marked price?
Well, I did not "change my mind", this was an honest mistake on my part. I told the potential buyers that I made an error, what the price should have been (and are), and moved on. No rude remarks, so I presume they understood.
No I would not arrest in this case but still stand that the buyers actions lean towards theft Boothill40, I'll agree that it may look suspicious. Will you agree that there is a possibility that he just did not want the seller to change his mind on the selling price even though the Seated Dimes were in the same bin as Mercurys?
Still no guesses on how many members that PM'ed me on the 'better date' Franklins that my price may have been wrong, wonder why?
OH, and Boothill40, hope your night, and nights to come, was a safe one. My Father-in-law was Chief in Carpinteria, Ca. >>
Can I take a stab at the answer? I'm sure it was in the 4 figures - my guess is 0,000 - what's your giveaway prize? lol People sure tell you when you "overprice" things in a hurry. Just try listing an item for ask and they make offers for 20% under bid.
Have bought and sold on BST, many references available when asked.
Without ALL the facts there can only be conjecture & opinions.
I've looked at this from both sides & given this more thought than it deserves.
If the coins were in a bin ALL clearly marked at $.40 - the buyer paid what was asked by the seller and as such, no Crime was committed HOWEVER, it's the part about concealing the seated dimes that appears to concern all of us. Why did the buyer conceal the coins IF the aforementioned is in fact True?
I DO believe this thread has more than run it's course.
A friend I know who went to a yard sale and the guy had silver coins for sale and told him he'd take 4x face (yes, this was recently). Instead of paying him his ridiculously low asking price, he instead talked him down to 3x, flipped them that week and pocketed over $600 on the deal (if that gives you an idea of the amount of coins).
I talked with a coin shop owner who sells at fair prices (usually sold out of most things when I go in). Knowing I was looking for "junk" coins, he couldn't refer me honestly to one other dealer in town that might be of help as he said "our business is full of a lot of a**h****."
I have a ton of full stamp sheets to sell (turn of the century, 1920's, 30's, 40's). I approached a dealer at a coin show who also happened to have stamps displayed and told him I was interested in selling. He inquired condition, etc., and wanted me to bring them by telling me that I shouldn't expect more than 50% of face value on the stamps, adding, "I mean, what are you going to do, mail them? Of course not."
Maybe the guy in the last example is one of those laughing in this thread.....
I was going to just vote "unethical"...until I saw that he intentionally hid the seated stuff. That meant that he KNEW on some level that he was doing something wrong, and did so with intent to pull one over on the seller. We don't know how the seated dimes got there...perhaps a helper accidentally threw the seated dimes in there without the dealer's knowledge. Heck, for all we know this guy did it himself to see if he could get away with it. All I know is that any dealer worth his salt isn't going to put seated dimes, even lower end ones, in with junk silver.....even when it was at 4x face, SLD's were worth a premium even in low grade.
If I am the seller here and I was the one who screwed up, leaving the seated in there... if the guy says "hey- there's seated dimes in here!", I'd likely have rewarded him for his honesty and just said "Buy 'em", and chastised myself for my mistake. But to be clandestine and shady about it by hiding the stuff in stacks like that? And then having the nads to brag about it here? Once I found out I'd tell him "enjoy your little rip Mr. Cherrypicker; it's the last thing you'll ever buy here. And not because of the money...because of the dishonest way you did it." I don't do biz that way on either side of the counter. If you don't want to do business in a straight up manner, then I don't want or need you as a customer.
<< <i>I have a ton of full stamp sheets to sell (turn of the century, 1920's, 30's, 40's). >>
Regarding stamps- I was talking to a dealer at the local coin show who also sells stamps, and he said pretty much that- most 20th century stamps aren't good for much more than using for postage. One of the coin dealers I've bought from in Long Beach often has packets of stamps (dated generally from the 20's to the 60's) for sale at 75% of face, so obviously, he must have paid less than that for them. If you're getting offered 50% of face, it doesn't necessarily mean the guy's a crook.
<< <i>I have a ton of full stamp sheets to sell (turn of the century, 1920's, 30's, 40's). >>
Regarding stamps- I was talking to a dealer at the local coin show who also sells stamps, and he said pretty much that- most 20th century stamps aren't good for much more than using for postage. One of the coin dealers I've bought from in Long Beach often has packets of stamps (dated generally from the 20's to the 60's) for sale at 75% of face, so obviously, he must have paid less than that for them. If you're getting offered 50% of face, it doesn't necessarily mean the guy's a crook. >>
We did stamps here in the store for about 12 years...common small denomination stuff in sheets is legion in number as far as what's been hoarded over the years, and almost impossible to sell unless you blow it out as discount postage. Most guys buy it at half of face to flip it at 70-80%...they sell it to people who don't mind putting 6-8-10 stamps on an envelope.
<< <i>Most guys buy it at half of face to flip it at 70-80%...they sell it to people who don't mind putting 6-8-10 stamps on an envelope. >>
I tried doing that for a while to save on postage, but with the constant rate increases, just try to fit all the stamps on a #000 bubble mailer... >>
Okay. Going way off topic here.
I order a block of Maple Sugar every year from a small place in Vermont.
Each year, I get a package that is COVERED in small denomination stamps that I have never seen before. Four dollars in postage done with maybe sixty stamps.
If you have the time and patience to deal with a bunch of single digit valued stamps (well, okay maybe some teens and twenties, too), it's a good way to save 25% on your postage costs.
<< <i>yeah, theft all right. he knew what he was doing(acted with malice and forethought) and is the sort i'd avoid if i knew who he was. please PM his ID so i know to never transact anything with him. >>
I don't think this is theft either (it is more or less a "cherrypick"), but I do think it is closer to the line of being dishonest than the subject of this thread. Whoever put that coin in the 2x2 made a mistake -- some might think an honest person might say "hey you made a mistake" and bring it to the dealer's attention.
....but I do think it is closer to the line of being dishonest than the subject of this thread.
Me too. Obviously the seller mistook the mintmark, buyer didn't. Not sure if I would put it in the category of cherrypicking, just capitalizing on a mistake. Happens. Accept that it happens & move on.
If this has already been posted to this thread, please forgive me. I didn't have time to read all 10 pages
I say Theft! Specifically "Theft by Deception" Read further for a legal definition.
<< <i>Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. >>
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>If this has already been posted to this thread, please forgive me. I didn't have time to read all 10 pages
I say Theft! Specifically "Theft by Deception" Read further for a legal definition.
<< <i>Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. >>
>>
WE HAVE A WINNER!
"(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or "
<< <i>If this has already been posted to this thread, please forgive me. I didn't have time to read all 10 pages
I say Theft! Specifically "Theft by Deception" Read further for a legal definition.
<< <i>Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. >>
>>
WE HAVE A WINNER!
"(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or " >>
I respectfully disagree. The person in question did not "prevent" the other person from acquiring the information. The seller could just have very well asked the buyer to show all the coins.
All feelings aside, if someone comes in and says " Silver is about seventeen an ounce... here's five ounces ... is it wrong to give him 17 dollars each ?
What if, after he left, you notice that one is a 95 W ? Did you steal it or did you hit the jackpot ? Would you put it on eBay or get it slabbed ?
I respectfully disagree. The person in question did not "prevent" the other person from acquiring the information. The seller could just have very well asked the buyer to show all the coins
How did he prevent the seller from acquiring information? The seller obviously decided not to check. Ask yourself why the dealer did not check?
How did those Seated Dimes get there in the first place....60 of them? If there were other bins with Seated dime, and there was a chance of the two series getting "cross contaminated", don't you think the seller would check? No, becasue he did not care.
How the h3ll did an 1885-S dime get in the bin in the first place? Even if there was a bin for Seated dimes, for say $10 each, why would that 1885-S dime be in there? Everything points to the seller just not caring.
<< <i>I respectfully disagree. The person in question did not "prevent" the other person from acquiring the information. The seller could just have very well asked the buyer to show all the coins
How did he prevent the seller from acquiring information? The seller obviously decided not to check. Ask yourself why the dealer did not check?
How did those Seated Dimes get there in the first place....60 of them? If there were other bins with Seated dime, and there was a chance of the two series getting "cross contaminated", don't you think the seller would check? No, becasue he did not care.
How the h3ll did an 1885-S dime get in the bin in the first place? Even if there was a bin for Seated dimes, for say $10 each, why would that 1885-S dime be in there? Everything points to the seller just not caring.
gecko, still no reply to my link....what say you? >>
What you've said merely adds credence to my surmise that they were accidentally mixed in by someone else... or, pehaps purposely put in by this "buyer" himself for all we know. The fact that there was an 85-S just reinforces my position that a batch of better stuff got (accidentally or on purpose) mixed in with the junk... And any good dealer would DEFINITELY care. Obviously. Show me a dealer who doesn't go through what he buys (Yeah, right.)... or one that leaves more valuable stuff in mixed deals because he just "doesn't care" about making money, especially in a low market where 90% is bringing 4x? (Yeah, right.) And this was junk silver so no "salting" is needed to sell it. That seated material wasn't supposed to be in there, period. I'd bet money on it.
But...laying all that aside...This buyer INTENTIONALLY hid the better stuff in the stacks. Who does that unless they are trying to pull something and/or are feeling guilty? He did it because he KNEW he was doing something wrong.
What you've said merely adds credence to my surmise that they were accidentally mixed in by someone else... or, pehaps purposely put in by this "buyer" himself for all we know. Surmise: a thought or idea based on scanty evidence : conjecture Before I call anyone a thief I'd like more than scanty evidence, or a 'for all we know'....
The fact that there was an 85-S just reinforces my position that a batch of better stuff got (accidentally or on purpose) mixed in with the junk... And any good dealer would DEFINITELY care. Obviously. Why? I think we'll have to agree to disagree that there is a possibility that well worn (AG) Seated dimes could have been mixed in with Mercury's.
Show me a dealer who doesn't go through what he buys (Yeah, right.)... or one that leaves more valuable stuff in mixed deals because he just "doesn't care" about making money, especially in a low market where 90% is bringing 4x? (Yeah, right.) First of all, there was no mention that this happened recently, may have been years ago. There are many series that have just recently taken off. There is a woman I take the train into work with who, when she found out I collected coins, told me she still have some large cents that she bought not too long ago for $1.50-$2 each!! I'm looking at my 2001 Redbook listing many Seated Dimes in G-4 for $8....about the same price as pre-'31 Mercs in VF-XF. G-4 Seated dimes for $8....what do you thing an AG of F01 would be worth?? Also, if you read the thread that started this, it was talking about Swap Meet buys. There was no claim that this was a mistake made by a dealer, very well could have been a person who was given these coins by a relative (living or otherwise). Yes, I'm surmising that!
And this was junk silver so no "salting" is needed to sell it. That seated material wasn't supposed to be in there, period. I'd bet money on it. Nice bet. Nothing can be proved or unproved(?).
But...laying all that aside...This buyer INTENTIONALLY hid the better stuff in the stacks. Who does that unless they are trying to pull something and/or are feeling guilty? He did it because he KNEW he was doing something wrong. If hiding something as to not raise the possibility of the seller hiking the selling price, as has been mentioned by the buyer, then yes, he did something wrong. Have you never snuck something into the house, or a room? Have you never done something that you did not want others to notice? Does this absolutely mean you're a thief, or liar, or some other law breaker.
All I'm saying is with the facts I know, I am not prepared to call the guy a thief. Doing so is a very slippery slope IMO.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
<< <i>In order to prove theft you must show intent, and in this case I think you have the intent as he placed them on the bottom in order to avoid detection. >>
Yes, but you also need to show that the item was actually stolen.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>In order to prove theft you must show intent, and in this case I think you have the intent as he placed them on the bottom in order to avoid detection. >>
Yes, but you also need to show that the item was actually stolen. >>
Just got a burglary case filed, the guy went into a Walmart opened up a locked case containing cameras. He never made it out of the store but based on the security video and the statements from the loss prevention staff his "INTENT" was clearly shown. The property never got out of the store but he now faces felony charges. >>
Except in this case, the dealer had a price tag on the coins, and the buyer paid exactly that amount.
<< <i>I put "Very unethical at the very least" because the dealer should make sure of what he/she is selling.
Its close to theft. >>
This makes no sense at all.
Make a descision for once in your life. You guys are unbelievable!!!! Americans murder over 22,000 people "EVERY YEAR" just with handguns and you can't grow a pair and state an honest opinion??????
The seller put them all in a container and the customer bought a number of them at the advertised price!!! Which part of this don't you get???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
<< <i>
<< <i>I put "Very unethical at the very least" because the dealer should make sure of what he/she is selling.
Its close to theft. >>
This makes no sense at all. >>
OK let me clarify:
I think that its the dealers responsibility to know what items he is selling to the customers. I also think it is the moral responsibility of the customer to not knowingly try to deceive a dealer in such a manner.
I swear this was unintentional, but....
I listed some (more) silver today, breaking them down by series & denominations.
Most were right around melt (12x), but I found that I had a few 'key' date Franklins (well, how about better date Franklins).
I separated those & listed them separately.
I was thinking I would list them for $10 each, but instead I calculated them at 10x each!
My listing clearly said "Better Date Franklins" and proceeded to list the few dates.
Clearly i would want more than the common dates I had for 12x face.....and these were only 10x face.
Within 15 minutes I had multiple PMs.
Guess how many PM'ed me asking if what I wanted for these better dates was a mistake?
You're Right!!
Should I name names to out these 'scumbags'?
To Boothill40, you seem reasonable, think this over.......
"The seller never noticed so you have no crime,...."
No crime......
.....however I go back to the buyers intent by concealing the coins on the bottom hoping they would not be noticed.
He has already stated that he did not want to seller to see them for fear that he would change the price, NOT that the coins were in the wrong bin.
And if there are 60 in that bin, hard to believe that all those were there on accident.
PLUS, finding that 1885-S in a bin, ANY bin where customers could freely handle them, leads me to believe that the seller never checked what he had.....he just did not care.
Alot of crimes are crimes of op(po)rtunity this may have just been another.
Maybe, maybe not. Not enough facts.
And in the country I come from a person is innocent until proven guilty.
you must not live in Ohio then? In Ohio it's Guilty till u pay a high priced lawyer or a judge, then it's a plea bargain to a lesser charge.
I can tell some tales/stories about the great ohio legal system.
Steve
<< <i>This isn't locked yet?
Steve >>
Give it a little more time... it is still only 5:30am on the West Coast
No I would not arrest in this case but still stand that the buyers actions lean towards theft
Boothill40, I'll agree that it may look suspicious.
Will you agree that there is a possibility that he just did not want the seller to change his mind on the selling price even though the Seated Dimes were in the same bin as Mercurys?
Still no guesses on how many members that PM'ed me on the 'better date' Franklins that my price may have been wrong, wonder why?
OH, and Boothill40, hope your night, and nights to come, was a safe one.
My Father-in-law was Chief in Carpinteria, Ca.
<< <i>I was thinking I would list them for $10 each, but instead I calculated them at 10x each! >>
Did you change your mind, or did you sell them for the marked price?
Should the buyer submit the alleged thefts to PCGS for grading or submit this story to Oprah for review as a possible show for the housewives of the world to judge ?
i love the drama created by the questions, but the fun is in the game.
That's this guy's View.
Somewhere it's written : judge not, lest ye be...
"mistaken for Judy. "
as someone else mentioned, time to lock this travesty.
40c each and the mix is there.....
What is the problem?
I bought some coins as a kid in a "Any 10 coins for $ 1.00" - Looked like mostly buffalo nickels, old wheaties, a few hammered indian head cents and lots of foreign coins.
I asked the guy if that was accurate....Yes, Kid thats correct.
I bought 20 coins. 10 were Large Cents and the rest mostly buffalo nickels and a couple of wheat 1c.
Now I really had to dig to get those, but the guy did not care.
He said he hoped it helped my collection. Best $ 2.00 I ever spent.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
Well, I did not "change my mind", this was an honest mistake on my part.
I told the potential buyers that I made an error, what the price should have been (and are), and moved on.
No rude remarks, so I presume they understood.
P R O F I T ™
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.
<< <i>Steve, not yet.
No I would not arrest in this case but still stand that the buyers actions lean towards theft
Boothill40, I'll agree that it may look suspicious.
Will you agree that there is a possibility that he just did not want the seller to change his mind on the selling price even though the Seated Dimes were in the same bin as Mercurys?
Still no guesses on how many members that PM'ed me on the 'better date' Franklins that my price may have been wrong, wonder why?
OH, and Boothill40, hope your night, and nights to come, was a safe one.
My Father-in-law was Chief in Carpinteria, Ca. >>
Can I take a stab at the answer? I'm sure it was in the 4 figures - my guess is 0,000 - what's your giveaway prize? lol
People sure tell you when you "overprice" things in a hurry. Just try listing an item for ask and they make offers for 20% under bid.
Without ALL the facts there can only be conjecture & opinions.
I've looked at this from both sides & given this more thought than it deserves.
If the coins were in a bin ALL clearly marked at $.40 - the buyer paid what was asked by the seller
and as such, no Crime was committed HOWEVER, it's the part about concealing the seated dimes that
appears to concern all of us. Why did the buyer conceal the coins IF the aforementioned is in fact True?
I DO believe this thread has more than run it's course.
As such -
PM me your addy, I'll send you a 'prize'.
A friend I know who went to a yard sale and the guy had silver coins for sale and told him he'd take 4x face (yes, this was recently). Instead of paying him his ridiculously low asking price, he instead talked him down to 3x, flipped them that week and pocketed over $600 on the deal (if that gives you an idea of the amount of coins).
I talked with a coin shop owner who sells at fair prices (usually sold out of most things when I go in). Knowing I was looking for "junk" coins, he couldn't refer me honestly to one other dealer in town that might be of help as he said "our business is full of a lot of a**h****."
I have a ton of full stamp sheets to sell (turn of the century, 1920's, 30's, 40's). I approached a dealer at a coin show who also happened to have stamps displayed and told him I was interested in selling. He inquired condition, etc., and wanted me to bring them by telling me that I shouldn't expect more than 50% of face value on the stamps, adding, "I mean, what are you going to do, mail them? Of course not."
Maybe the guy in the last example is one of those laughing in this thread.....
If I am the seller here and I was the one who screwed up, leaving the seated in there... if the guy says "hey- there's seated dimes in here!", I'd likely have rewarded him for his honesty and just said "Buy 'em", and chastised myself for my mistake. But to be clandestine and shady about it by hiding the stuff in stacks like that? And then having the nads to brag about it here? Once I found out I'd tell him "enjoy your little rip Mr. Cherrypicker; it's the last thing you'll ever buy here. And not because of the money...because of the dishonest way you did it." I don't do biz that way on either side of the counter. If you don't want to do business in a straight up manner, then I don't want or need you as a customer.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I have a ton of full stamp sheets to sell (turn of the century, 1920's, 30's, 40's). >>
Regarding stamps- I was talking to a dealer at the local coin show who also sells stamps, and he said pretty much that- most 20th century stamps aren't good for much more than using for postage. One of the coin dealers I've bought from in Long Beach often has packets of stamps (dated generally from the 20's to the 60's) for sale at 75% of face, so obviously, he must have paid less than that for them. If you're getting offered 50% of face, it doesn't necessarily mean the guy's a crook.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have a ton of full stamp sheets to sell (turn of the century, 1920's, 30's, 40's). >>
Regarding stamps- I was talking to a dealer at the local coin show who also sells stamps, and he said pretty much that- most 20th century stamps aren't good for much more than using for postage. One of the coin dealers I've bought from in Long Beach often has packets of stamps (dated generally from the 20's to the 60's) for sale at 75% of face, so obviously, he must have paid less than that for them. If you're getting offered 50% of face, it doesn't necessarily mean the guy's a crook. >>
We did stamps here in the store for about 12 years...common small denomination stuff in sheets is legion in number as far as what's been hoarded over the years, and almost impossible to sell unless you blow it out as discount postage. Most guys buy it at half of face to flip it at 70-80%...they sell it to people who don't mind putting 6-8-10 stamps on an envelope.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Most guys buy it at half of face to flip it at 70-80%...they sell it to people who don't mind putting 6-8-10 stamps on an envelope.
I tried doing that for a while to save on postage, but with the constant rate increases, just try to fit all the stamps on a #000 bubble mailer...
<< <i>
<< <i>Most guys buy it at half of face to flip it at 70-80%...they sell it to people who don't mind putting 6-8-10 stamps on an envelope.
I tried doing that for a while to save on postage, but with the constant rate increases, just try to fit all the stamps on a #000 bubble mailer...
Okay. Going way off topic here.
I order a block of Maple Sugar every year from a small place in Vermont.
Each year, I get a package that is COVERED in small denomination stamps that I have never seen before. Four dollars in postage done with maybe sixty stamps.
Because of this thread, I know now WHY.
Will this thread not DIE!
<< <i>Because of this thread, I know now WHY. >>
If you have the time and patience to deal with a bunch of single digit valued stamps (well, okay maybe some teens and twenties, too), it's a good way to save 25% on your postage costs.
<< <i>yeah, theft all right. he knew what he was doing(acted with malice and forethought) and is the sort i'd avoid if i knew who he was. please PM his ID so i know to never transact anything with him. >>
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
Is this theft?
I think not, but what do you think?
<< <i>So gecko....
Is this theft?
I think not, but what do you think? >>
I don't think this is theft either (it is more or less a "cherrypick"), but I do think it is closer to the line of being dishonest than the subject of this thread. Whoever put that coin in the 2x2 made a mistake -- some might think an honest person might say "hey you made a mistake" and bring it to the dealer's attention.
Me too.
Obviously the seller mistook the mintmark, buyer didn't.
Not sure if I would put it in the category of cherrypicking, just capitalizing on a mistake.
Happens.
Accept that it happens & move on.
Franklin-Lover's Forum
I say Theft! Specifically "Theft by Deception" Read further for a legal definition.
<< <i>Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. >>
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>If this has already been posted to this thread, please forgive me. I didn't have time to read all 10 pages
I say Theft! Specifically "Theft by Deception" Read further for a legal definition.
<< <i>Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. >>
>>
WE HAVE A WINNER!
"(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or "
<< <i>
<< <i>If this has already been posted to this thread, please forgive me. I didn't have time to read all 10 pages
I say Theft! Specifically "Theft by Deception" Read further for a legal definition.
<< <i>Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed. >>
>>
WE HAVE A WINNER!
"(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or " >>
I respectfully disagree. The person in question did not "prevent" the other person from acquiring the information. The seller could just have very well asked the buyer to show all the coins.
What if, after he left, you notice that one is a 95 W ? Did you steal it or did you hit the jackpot ?
Would you put it on eBay or get it slabbed ?
I'm just asking
How did he prevent the seller from acquiring information?
The seller obviously decided not to check.
Ask yourself why the dealer did not check?
How did those Seated Dimes get there in the first place....60 of them?
If there were other bins with Seated dime, and there was a chance of the two series getting "cross contaminated", don't you think the seller would check?
No, becasue he did not care.
How the h3ll did an 1885-S dime get in the bin in the first place?
Even if there was a bin for Seated dimes, for say $10 each, why would that 1885-S dime be in there?
Everything points to the seller just not caring.
gecko, still no reply to my link....what say you?
What I wonder about is the dealer - was he drunk or what?
<< <i>I respectfully disagree. The person in question did not "prevent" the other person from acquiring the information. The seller could just have very well asked the buyer to show all the coins
How did he prevent the seller from acquiring information?
The seller obviously decided not to check.
Ask yourself why the dealer did not check?
How did those Seated Dimes get there in the first place....60 of them?
If there were other bins with Seated dime, and there was a chance of the two series getting "cross contaminated", don't you think the seller would check?
No, becasue he did not care.
How the h3ll did an 1885-S dime get in the bin in the first place?
Even if there was a bin for Seated dimes, for say $10 each, why would that 1885-S dime be in there?
Everything points to the seller just not caring.
gecko, still no reply to my link....what say you? >>
What you've said merely adds credence to my surmise that they were accidentally mixed in by someone else... or, pehaps purposely put in by this "buyer" himself for all we know. The fact that there was an 85-S just reinforces my position that a batch of better stuff got (accidentally or on purpose) mixed in with the junk... And any good dealer would DEFINITELY care. Obviously. Show me a dealer who doesn't go through what he buys (Yeah, right.)... or one that leaves more valuable stuff in mixed deals because he just "doesn't care" about making money, especially in a low market where 90% is bringing 4x? (Yeah, right.) And this was junk silver so no "salting" is needed to sell it. That seated material wasn't supposed to be in there, period. I'd bet money on it.
But...laying all that aside...This buyer INTENTIONALLY hid the better stuff in the stacks. Who does that unless they are trying to pull something and/or are feeling guilty? He did it because he KNEW he was doing something wrong.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Surmise: a thought or idea based on scanty evidence : conjecture
Before I call anyone a thief I'd like more than scanty evidence, or a 'for all we know'....
The fact that there was an 85-S just reinforces my position that a batch of better stuff got (accidentally or on purpose) mixed in with the junk... And any good dealer would DEFINITELY care. Obviously.
Why? I think we'll have to agree to disagree that there is a possibility that well worn (AG) Seated dimes could have been mixed in with Mercury's.
Show me a dealer who doesn't go through what he buys (Yeah, right.)... or one that leaves more valuable stuff in mixed deals because he just "doesn't care" about making money, especially in a low market where 90% is bringing 4x? (Yeah, right.)
First of all, there was no mention that this happened recently, may have been years ago. There are many series that have just recently taken off.
There is a woman I take the train into work with who, when she found out I collected coins, told me she still have some large cents that she bought not too long ago for $1.50-$2 each!!
I'm looking at my 2001 Redbook listing many Seated Dimes in G-4 for $8....about the same price as pre-'31 Mercs in VF-XF. G-4 Seated dimes for $8....what do you thing an AG of F01 would be worth??
Also, if you read the thread that started this, it was talking about Swap Meet buys.
There was no claim that this was a mistake made by a dealer, very well could have been a person who was given these coins by a relative (living or otherwise).
Yes, I'm surmising that!
And this was junk silver so no "salting" is needed to sell it.
That seated material wasn't supposed to be in there, period. I'd bet money on it.
Nice bet. Nothing can be proved or unproved(?).
But...laying all that aside...This buyer INTENTIONALLY hid the better stuff in the stacks. Who does that unless they are trying to pull something and/or are feeling guilty? He did it because he KNEW he was doing something wrong.
If hiding something as to not raise the possibility of the seller hiking the selling price, as has been mentioned by the buyer, then yes, he did something wrong.
Have you never snuck something into the house, or a room? Have you never done something that you did not want others to notice?
Does this absolutely mean you're a thief, or liar, or some other law breaker.
All I'm saying is with the facts I know, I am not prepared to call the guy a thief.
Doing so is a very slippery slope IMO.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......