1990 Topps Frank Thomas NNOF revisited...introduction to my theory

13468921

Comments

  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    By crack and resub I mean:

    1. a card is submitted and is graded lower than expected
    2. owner cracks the slab and sends the card back in to be graded a second time
    3. owner never reports to PSA that they had removed the card from the first slab and that the cert number is no longer viable

    so the number graded is inflated because some of them have been graded more than once

    As for the pop higher thing...it's all electronic...it hasn't been reported to PSA that the "PSA 10" copy was a mechanical error, so it remains on the population report.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • OK, I understand what you are saying but when you look at the regular PSA10 (1990 TOPPS FRANK THOMAS NAME ON FRONT) is says there are 1203 or something like that. So you are saying that the 'wrong flip info' Frank Thomas was recorded as a '1990 TOPPS 414 FRANK THOMAS NO NAME ON FRONT' card? Why would they record it under the wrong category? Shouldn't it have been recorded under something like '1990 TOPPS FRANK THOMAS Wrong info on back'. Did you save any pictures?

    Cheers,
    gigfy
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    I thought I did, but I can't find it now...here is an old thread about it...

    LINK
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    PSA doesn't grade mechanical error cards, sorry I wasn't clear...

    I'm saying their system had a mechanical error and labeled a standard Frank Thomas rookie as a NNOF.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • Ahhhhh, now I get it. So BGS/PSA 9 is as high as they go. Cool!
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Roger that! You have the best. I've never seen a copy with 50/50 top-bottom centering...there will probably never be a BGS 9.5 or PSA 10.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • saucywombatsaucywombat Posts: 982 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Where did you quote that from Dave? >>



    From slantycouch on Page 9 of this thread.
    Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors.
    [email protected]
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Thanks, I missed it and didn't know who said that.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    I want to introduce a different theory while I have a moment. This comes from Lance Tanaka, Frank Thomas Super Collector (FrankThomasCollection.com) and printer. I'm quoting here:

    --------------------

    A former printers perspective.

    I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I tried hard to keep it focused and to point, but the processes discussed were by defintion "technical" - and that always means 'lengthy'. (and why printers used to make super good money)

    In a nutshell - here it is:

    Firstly, you have to remember that the techniques I'm about to discuss are no longer used - digital printing having replaced most of the old school lithography press techniques. Some of the details I'm going to gloss over because, truthfully, it's too detailed for the average collector to grasp, and more importantly does not address what happened, or at least my opinion of what I think happened.

    Okay, old school technique for printing was to take artwork - photographs (notice I said 'photos' not 'images'), graphics, etc - and have them scanned in via barrel or drum scanner. This was sort of a giant version of what we now call a desktop scanner. (simple graphics were created on what was called the 'pasteboard' and then shot via flat bed camera or processed via latex plate using electrostatic adhesion - xerographic process) The photograph or artwork would then be carefully rolled onto a large drum and spun while a light sensor loaded the colors a byte at a time into a large mainframe-type computer. When you're talking about a sheet of baseball cards, we're talking about each and every photograph having to be scanned in separately and then literally pasted together to form a single large image - what's called Stripping In. (note - this is important to remember for this discussion)

    And then from this single large image would be re-shot (four different times with four different negatives for each negative/plate/color) and outputted via final negs - 100% of the final print size. Usually at this stage a single Waterproof would also be created. Waterproofs were single color acetates that mimicked the inks being printed onto paper - meaning all four CMYK colors would be aligned and taped together so that any defects - dust specks, cuts, etc - can be spotted & highlighted with a grease pencil. At which point the printer will have to re-do/correct that section or element of the scanned piece. And once all the doodads & goobers are accounted for - and the designer/art director signs off on it - four final master negatives are produced. It's these negatives that will be shot via UV light to photosensitive aluminum plates. (skipped a few details since it's not relevant)

    Now here is where I believe the NNOF was created.

    When press operations or the design team were reviewing the Waterproof - something must've been wrong with one part - a name was messed up somehow. Perhaps it was scratched, or there was a dust element, or something else. But something that required that the name be cut out, new artwork via typesetting ordered, glued or waxed onto pasteboard, shot, neg made, and then stripped into the open space in that specific negative (obviously the black neg) that held the original damaged name.

    That name was irrelevant to the printing process as it was just another young player. It's important to understand this mindset because too many times modern collectors assign bizarre conspiracy theories as to why certain cards were "selected" for alterations. While that's true today, circa 2009, as manufacturers have intentionally created in these so-called errors to generate interest in the hobby; in 1989 when these Topps card were being printed - errors were just that - plain old mistakes that often get by because high quality standards hadn't been set or expected by the collecting market. Blank backs, wrong backs, missing foil, etc. were very common back then with the high production rates of the early 90's.

    Okay, back on point.

    When you strip-in an element (BTW it might be amusing for some to note the job classifieds back then - you'd see an opening for a "stripper" issued by a print shop or design studio. That used to cause giggles back in the day) What you did was this:

    Let's say that the damaged element was in a simple field - a bit of type sitting in a neutral background - like say a name set onto a baseball card. What you would do is carefully cut out that piece. Remember, you're cutting on a negative sheet so care has to be taken lest you damage even more which means no watches, rings or any buttoned shirts - strippers were the guys you could easily spot in a print shop because they usually wore latex gloves (fingerprints and human oil) and these long sleeve coats to prevent further damage to the negatives. That cut out piece is then taped to the side of the negative to indicate a strip-in - a clear indication that a plate is not to be made from that negative. The new negative, with the name alone, is then carefully cut and placed into the open spot in the negative. Using lithotape, it's then taped into position - carefully aligning the strip-in using a t-square or double-triangle method - assuring it's not going to reproduce crooked.

    Finally, after stripping in, the (now working negative) is re-shot for final master neg and ready to be plated. EDITED: Depending on the placement and complexity of the corrected neg - the amendment neg could become the master neg and shot for plate.

    I believe that the point where the name was cut-out, in anticipation for a strip-in, was where this infamous error occured. The stripper probably forgot to tape the cut onto the working neg - or it fell or was torn off - and it was assumed that it was the final master neg to be plated. Or (and I believe this to be the case - a new master neg was in fact produced, but that the incorrect neg was used for plating) Well, then, it was off to the races. Plates were made and the presses started up.

    Clearly, since the error was caught, when the first proofs were being pulled - checking for saturation, coverage, alignment, and other goobers - someone noticed that one card had no name. The presses were then "stopped" (technically, and usually, you don't 'stop the press' - you stop the feeder from grabbing more stock while the problem is addressed) Someone either called for a strip-in and the neg was reshot then re-plated, or most likely the correct negative/plate was found and put into the press.

    The next part of the "error" was likely this series of events:

    The original press run was probably marked by putting a sliver of paper while the new prints were being printed. You do that for a variety of reasons, but in this specific case because it would be a marker to indicate where the throwaway product was to begin. You don't 'get rid of' the production for several reasons - but for this discussion - it's likely due to the fact it's a hassle to move the beds (or their contents) in and out of the bed. Now, if that paper was dislodged or plain ignored - then that stack of newly printed cards would go off to drying and forgotten. The cutters were then ordered to do their job and... the rest is history.

    *For a visual of the old-school stripping process - I would highly suggest renting the movie "To Live And Die In L.A." with Willem Dafoe as the counterfeiter extraordinare. (one of my all-time favorite films and the reason I was nearly kicked out of college) Check out the beginning of the film to see the process of printing done the traditional way - including a scene where he strips in the bank note numbers.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • Based on the evidence found on the other cards on the same sheet, I don't think this author's explanation quite works. He's implying that someone caught the 'missing name' and repaired that error. That doesn't explain the 'missing black' on the other cards around the Thomas. Given the pattern on the other cards, I'd wager it was as suggested above a contaminated/wet roller rather than a plate needing repair.
    2001-2014 Topps Heritage complete!
  • mealewormmealeworm Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭
    I don't either. I think he is basically decribing what generally happens and not what happened in this case.

    image
    1957 Topps 99% 7.40 GPA
    Hank Aaron Basic PSA 7-8(75%)
  • jackstrawjackstraw Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭
    Thank you guys for a great read. I really miss collecting and this thread has got me itching to dig some stuff out.
    If only this thread was around last year because there was a super card store near here who had tons of commons and wax.
    I am going to see if I can get ahold of her to find out if she has any 90 Topps commons that she wants to sell cheap.
    Collector Focus

    ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
  • Hey BunchOBull,

    Have you invited the ex-printer with the new theory to check out our thread and composite picture? Do you think he'll change his theory?

    Cheers,
    gigfy
  • richtreerichtree Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭
    Here is my beauty -- what do you guys think -- going to PSA on monday

    image
    Buying:
    90 Fleer Dave Martinez yellow 90'Front
    90 UD #702 Mike Witt
    91 Topps Mark Whiten hand out of the border
    Topps Heritage Cut out Alex Gordon
    Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
    80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
    90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
    90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
    1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
    81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
    91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
  • RichTree- I think it looks fine. Might want to re-cut that top though. Looks ripped. PSA might reject it. image Seriously though, nice looking card. Congrats. How much did you pay?
    imageimageimage
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    Looks nice!

    Hopefully it will avoid an OC just because of the t/b centering, but otherwise it looks great.
  • richtreerichtree Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭
    part of some dealing I did...400 for it
    Buying:
    90 Fleer Dave Martinez yellow 90'Front
    90 UD #702 Mike Witt
    91 Topps Mark Whiten hand out of the border
    Topps Heritage Cut out Alex Gordon
    Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
    80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
    90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
    90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
    1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
    81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
    91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
  • jackstrawjackstraw Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭
    Looks nice! I would love to own one of those.
    Collector Focus

    ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
  • richtreerichtree Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, I want it slabbed ASAP just so I don't keep looking at it raw....lol
    Buying:
    90 Fleer Dave Martinez yellow 90'Front
    90 UD #702 Mike Witt
    91 Topps Mark Whiten hand out of the border
    Topps Heritage Cut out Alex Gordon
    Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
    80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
    90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
    90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
    1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
    81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
    91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Ya know guys, I thought Lance knew about this thread...he posted that reply in a thread about this thread on another forum...maybe he didn't actually read it though?

    I haven't read it since early this morning, so I need to grab a bite and take it all in. I had a prep for my teacher's exam this morning and my head hurts. Not because the content was so hard, but because the person teaching was so wrong.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • I KNEW I held onto these dumb cards for 2 decades for a reason, even if it's only just to prove a point. I was lucky enough to get 2 NNOF Thomases in one box (bought from SuperAmerica in Wisconsin), along with a Marcus Lawton (I only recall because the week before he slid high into the Brewers Jim Gantner and I hated his guts). I realized some time later the missing black in the All-Star cards backgrounds, so I held onto them (although I think I tossed a couple Jeff Russels when he turned out to not be a star in following years). Anyway, here are the ones I kept (I sold one to a kid that summer for *sniff* $10 and the other for $950 online before the days of ebay in 1994). If nothing else, you can fill in the Fisk puzzle piece.
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Awesome!!! Can you post a larger picture of the Carlton Fisk?

    Also, would you be interested in moving your doubles?


    edited to add:

    How did you find this thread?

    Also, please turn on your PMs...under the "profile" tab to the top right there is a check box within the profile page.

    If that doesn't work, my email is [email protected]
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • richtreerichtree Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, man !!

    Trade me some of those doubles !!!!!!!!!!

    I trade with CASH as well., lol

    let me know

    [email protected]

    richtree
    Buying:
    90 Fleer Dave Martinez yellow 90'Front
    90 UD #702 Mike Witt
    91 Topps Mark Whiten hand out of the border
    Topps Heritage Cut out Alex Gordon
    Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
    80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
    90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
    90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
    1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
    81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
    91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
  • Here's a Fisk enlargement. I'd entertain offers for them, trade or $. Email to mephotography2001 *at* yahoo *dot* com.
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    image
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Well, I'm not going to try to compete with Richtree for money offers, I'm out of work and in school again. I may be able to come up with a good trade offer if I knew what you collect.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • Sorry, missed your edited message. I turned on the PMs. I found this thread through the Topps community forums (search under "boxes of 1990 Topps"). It's actually a miracle I found it based on that subject line, but I'm sure glad I did. I've been waiting 19 years for someone to look into this situation. I sent pics to Beckett in 1991 when they finally listed the Thomas NNOF in their price guide, but they never responded.
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    PM sent
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • I'd be willing to add cards to the trade, so BunchOBull can get the cards he "discovered".

    imageimageimage
  • jackstrawjackstraw Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭
    I have many many Griffey Jr cards I will donate for Ross to get these cards .
    Collector Focus

    ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Donovan and John, that's extremely generous of you both, but I realize cash speaks louder than anything else. I also knew that being public with my thoughts meant I would no longer be the only person looking for the cards.

    Business is business in the end, but I thank you for looking beyond that.

    Edited to add: John in that list. Thanks guys.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    I'll throw a couple bucks in if that's what's needed. I think you deserve to at least have *one* in your collection!
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    I have some decent stuff to trade, and I have some money to spend, but I'm not looking to get into a bidding war with anyone. Just gotta find out what mephoto collects.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • bighurt2000bighurt2000 Posts: 956 ✭✭✭
    Hey Ross,
    Check out this Ebay auction 350185591055 if someone can do a link that
    would be cool.
    I would like to go after that card but I will wait for a well centered PSA 9
    to pop up down the road.

    James
  • daddymcdaddymc Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭
    Currently working on: Kurt Warner PSA 9 or 10

  • mdkuommdkuom Posts: 932 ✭✭✭
    NNOF

    Dang! Too late
  • saucywombatsaucywombat Posts: 982 ✭✭✭
    "I Love it When a Plan Comes Together"

    image

    Cool to see the Fisk.

    The question now remains is Bob Knepper stricken?
    Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors.
    [email protected]
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Hey Ross,
    Check out this Ebay auction 350185591055 if someone can do a link that
    would be cool.
    I would like to go after that card but I will wait for a well centered PSA 9
    to pop up down the road.

    James >>



    Thanks James, that card is officially on the watch list...there is a fake NNOF currently up for a 24 hr auction by a scammer...he won't reply to me...I'd like to own a nice fake too. I think they look cool.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com


  • << <i>

    << <i>Hey Ross,
    Check out this Ebay auction 350185591055 if someone can do a link that
    would be cool.
    I would like to go after that card but I will wait for a well centered PSA 9
    to pop up down the road.

    James >>



    Thanks James, that card is officially on the watch list...there is a fake NNOF currently up for a 24 hr auction by a scammer...he won't reply to me...I'd like to own a nice fake too. I think they look cool. >>



    Just paint your own and send it to All Star Grading. Or maybe if you send it to GEM they will paint it for you. lol
    imageimageimage
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    lol I *think* that one is actually a printed fake...but there is always the rare Sharpie version too.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    Guys, don't get too excited. But I think I found the "real" Frank Thomas.
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    The puzzle is complete...the circle is continuous!
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • jackstrawjackstraw Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭
    Any word I what might become of these cards?
    Collector Focus

    ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    John, I haven't heard back from Mark as of yet, but I don't think my offer was in line with what he wants, so he may be pursuing other avenues (ie richtree).
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • richtreerichtree Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭
    I didn't get any offers either., lol
    Buying:
    90 Fleer Dave Martinez yellow 90'Front
    90 UD #702 Mike Witt
    91 Topps Mark Whiten hand out of the border
    Topps Heritage Cut out Alex Gordon
    Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
    80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
    90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
    90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
    1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
    81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
    91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
  • jackstrawjackstraw Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭
    Did you make an offer richtree?
    Collector Focus

    ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
  • cwazzycwazzy Posts: 3,348
    If it makes a difference I too would be willing to donate a few dollars to Ross' cause if it helped him land some of these "blackless" cards.

    Chris
    Chris
    My small collection
    Want List:
    '61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7
    Cardinal T206 cards
    Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    I do really appreciate the offer guys, but I've offered the seller what I believe to be a more than fair deal. I understand he may not agree, but it's what I can do. If I were in a position to offer more, I would because I appreciate people helping me out on my quest. Right now, I'm not at that point though so I offered what I could conscionably give without feeling as if I were taking advantage of the man and a little bit more.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • I haven't reject BoBs offer, which was generous, or received any other, and I do want to help him on his quest. I just don't know what kind of value to expect on these as there's really no market. There was no market on the Thomas NNOF in 1990 and I gave one up for only $10. So I'm just being hesitant and feeling it out. I'd be surprised if any of them are worth even $25, but would kick myself in places unseen if I found out next month they were trading at $200. Especially considering the paycut I had to take ar work recently.
  • jackstrawjackstraw Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭
    Who's Bob?
    Collector Focus

    ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
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