1990 Topps Frank Thomas NNOF revisited...introduction to my theory

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Comments

  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Yes, it's just $13, but darn it'll add up quickly.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • SidePocketSidePocket Posts: 2,873 ✭✭✭
    How many NNOF Thomas' are there known to be?

    "Molon Labe"

  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭


    << <i>How many NNOF Thomas' are there known to be? >>



    The common statement is "less than 100." I think less than 200. No matter how many, the percentage with the error as compared to the unflawed version is hundredths of a percentage point at best.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • fujfuj Posts: 550 ✭✭


    << <i>Had a stack of 50 Biggios come in today...and, as would be expected, nothing. I can't afford to buy these cards that I can't even sell to recoup my money anymore lol. >>



    That sucks, but now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if you have worse luck buying player lots. I'm just putting myself in the seller's shoes. If I were to see one of those cards with a major swatch of black missing, I wouldn't even include them in the lot! Maybe buying a monster box of commons would be more likely to yield the cards with the error. Either way, it's still a needle in a haystack type of search.

    Hopefully more of these surface in the near future someway, somehow.
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>How many NNOF Thomas' are there known to be? >>



    The common statement is "less than 100." I think less than 200. No matter how many, the percentage with the error as compared to the unflawed version is hundredths of a percentage point at best. >>



    Wait... so you're saying Topps produced large numbers of 1990 cards? I'm not buying it.



  • matthewbschultz83matthewbschultz83 Posts: 1,234 ✭✭✭
    I know sportlots has been mentioned, is there a way you can buy only from northeast dealers (same with Beckett). Or does that even present problems because the northeast dealers may have gotten their common stacks from other places throughout the country?
    Matt's Card Page
    What I'm selling
    image

    Building Sets, Collecting Texas Rangers, and Texas Tech Red Raiders
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Matt, the "problem" on sportlots is I couldn't find anywhere in which the sellers location was mentioned...I guess I could outright ask, but if this become common knowledge, it won't matter anymore anyway.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Had a stack of 50 Biggios come in today...and, as would be expected, nothing. I can't afford to buy these cards that I can't even sell to recoup my money anymore lol. >>



    That sucks, but now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if you have worse luck buying player lots. I'm just putting myself in the seller's shoes. If I were to see one of those cards with a major swatch of black missing, I wouldn't even include them in the lot! Maybe buying a monster box of commons would be more likely to yield the cards with the error. Either way, it's still a needle in a haystack type of search.

    Hopefully more of these surface in the near future someway, somehow. >>



    Greg, I'm sure there is something to that. Either out of novelty factor or out of "customer service."
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • SidePocketSidePocket Posts: 2,873 ✭✭✭
    If there are only a couple hundred cards affected by the error, it seems that buying lots would get real expensive. If there's 10 million of each card, then your chances would be about .00002 percent of getting one -

    "Molon Labe"

  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If there are only a couple hundred cards affected by the error, it seems that buying lots would get real expensive. If there's 10 million of each card, then your chances would be about .00002 percent of getting one - >>



    Yes...I'm just going to start going through commons boxes at shops...wish I still lived on the East coast.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    The ones I got were from Sportlots. Certainly no way to guarantee they came from any region.
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    Had an order of ~15 Mattingly's come in today. Of the 20, 3 were the "broken border" variety. Not really sure what that means.
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Chris,

    Dave made a post on Beckett and a Mattingly collector replied he had 7 broken border out of the 20 in his collection, but he had none of the other variations in his '90 stash. It appears that the Mattingly isn't connected to the blackless cards and that it can be attributed to some common printing flaw.

    edited to add...yeah, I think we should officially strike it off the list!
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Chris,

    Dave made a post on Beckett and a Mattingly collector replied he had 7 broken border out of the 20 in his collection, but he had none of the other variations in his '90 stash. It appears that the Mattingly isn't connected to the blackless cards and that it can be attributed to some common printing flaw. >>



    Sounds right - based on those numbers I would assume the same. A bunch on eBay right now (or at least when I last checked) all had the broken border so it appears much more "common".
  • saucywombatsaucywombat Posts: 982 ✭✭✭
    Agree I think that we can strike the Mattingly, though a variation does exist.
    Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors.
    [email protected]
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Agree I think that we can strike the Mattingly, though a variation does exist. >>



    Apparently that is the case!
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    I hope we can find a Biggio soon.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    FWIW I opened a 1990 Topps wax box today. All correct versions of the blackless cards, but a broken border Mattingly.

    Edit: Along those lines, will anyone with some 1990 Topps lying around look at the bottom left border of a Ventura? I got 2 that are similar to the Mattingly. Wondering if it's a variation or if they're all like that. Thanks!
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Good information Chris. I'm guessing no George Bush cards either? image
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Good information Chris. I'm guessing no George Bush cards either? image >>



    Nope - but wow... I had forgotten about those!

    Please see my late edit above about the Ventura though...
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,829 ✭✭✭
    Interesting read.

    Steve
    Good for you.
  • richtreerichtree Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭
    any chance of PSA ackowledging the variations?

    or is this done ?
    Buying:
    90 Fleer Dave Martinez yellow 90'Front
    90 UD #702 Mike Witt
    91 Topps Mark Whiten hand out of the border
    Topps Heritage Cut out Alex Gordon
    Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
    80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
    90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
    90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
    1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
    81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
    91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    They should in the end, but it will take several months to get to that point.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • richtreerichtree Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭
    Ok, awesome....


    I still want these variations! lol

    Anyone gets dups PM me !
    Buying:
    90 Fleer Dave Martinez yellow 90'Front
    90 UD #702 Mike Witt
    91 Topps Mark Whiten hand out of the border
    Topps Heritage Cut out Alex Gordon
    Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
    80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
    90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
    90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
    1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
    81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
    91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Headed to a couple of shops today to run through boxes of commons.

    Also, I've yet to hear back from Topps, so I guess they have no comment or no interest in their 20 year old card stock. I was hoping to get some solid input from them, an acknowledgement of the errors maybe.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • richtreerichtree Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭
    figures topps avoids comments., lol
    Buying:
    90 Fleer Dave Martinez yellow 90'Front
    90 UD #702 Mike Witt
    91 Topps Mark Whiten hand out of the border
    Topps Heritage Cut out Alex Gordon
    Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
    80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
    90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
    90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
    1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
    81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
    91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
  • saucywombatsaucywombat Posts: 982 ✭✭✭
    Got 11 Biggio's in the mail today. Nada.

    The only card place left in town doesn't carry commons.
    Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors.
    [email protected]
  • saucywombatsaucywombat Posts: 982 ✭✭✭
    OK - LARGE stack of orange 1990 Topps on my kitchen table.

    At least 45 of Hart, Acker, Fisk AS, Magrane AS, John Morris

    80+ Marcus Lawton

    Cleaned up SportLots - you are welcome sellers!

    Anyway not a thing. Might just speak to the source these dealers got their cards, maybe not. In any case these things are looking pretty scarce. Very scarce.

    I think $50 is probably a good starting point in terms of value for any of these cards.
    Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors.
    [email protected]
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Who knows how many have been destroyed/pitched already.

    Oh, and I'm trying to work a lead right now. Hopefully we will have some news this week.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    I got another 20+ each of Acker, Magrane, Morris and Hart in today.

    NOTHING. Boooo.


  • Very cool thread guys!

    1990 Topps is the first set I ever collected and so i will always love it...borders and all.
  • Haven't visited in a while, but was alerted to the thread by BunchOBull. (Thanks!)

    Very interesting read!!!!

    I pulled this FT NNOF out of a wax pack in Ballston, Spa NY.

    image

    image

    I looked through my flat boxes and didn't find my 1990 stash, so I'll try to get my footlockers open and check them out.

    Wish me luck!!
    gigfy

  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Luck is wished. I have hope Walter. Dave found several copies of the errors in the stash he opened back in the day. Sad for him that he did pull a Thomas like yourself.

    Thanks for you help!
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • OK, it took me a few hours but I managed to sort through ALL of my baseball cards. (Man, I've got a lot of junk!)

    I had about 30 of the cards that have been mentioned in the thread and got 6 ERROR CARDS!

    Sorry but the best I can do tonight is to list them with descriptions. (pics tomorrow evening)

    #227 Kevin Tapani (missing upper right corner border and part of Topps)

    #302 Marcus Lawton (missing upper left corner border, lower right corner border, and part of last name)

    #383 John Morris (missing upper right corner border) (identical to saucywombat's card)

    #728 Jim Acker (missing small portion of lower left corner border)

    #385 Fred McGriff All Star (missing portions of lower left corner borders) (identical to saucywombat's card)

    #404 Craig Biggio All Star (missing huge portions of the upper left corner & right side borders, background behind him is white) (identical to BunchOBull's prediction)

    I'm tired.

    Cheers,
    gigfy
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Great!!!! I knew you'd come through! Thank you for your hard work!
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    Let me give a little backstory here to some of the guys.

    This was the potential lead I mentioned. Walter and I have had previous discussions about the NNOF and I remembered he had pulled his copy, so I contacted him to let him know he most likely had more errors if he had kept the cards he opened.

    The rest is history. Big news for us guys.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • Really interesting read. Good job! Looking forward to a scan of the Biggio.

    Anyone know who the other guy is on the front of the Thomas card?
  • Bosox1976Bosox1976 Posts: 7,997 ✭✭✭
    Yes -- Please scan the Biggio!
    Mike
    Bosox1976
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Really interesting read. Good job! Looking forward to a scan of the Biggio.

    Anyone know who the other guy is on the front of the Thomas card? >>



    General consensus is an airbrushed out Tulane player.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭


    << <i>OK, it took me a few hours but I managed to sort through ALL of my baseball cards. (Man, I've got a lot of junk!)

    I had about 30 of the cards that have been mentioned in the thread and got 6 ERROR CARDS!

    Sorry but the best I can do tonight is to list them with descriptions. (pics tomorrow evening)

    #227 Kevin Tapani (missing upper right corner border and part of Topps)

    #302 Marcus Lawton (missing upper left corner border, lower right corner border, and part of last name)

    #383 John Morris (missing upper right corner border) (identical to saucywombat's card)

    #728 Jim Acker (missing small portion of lower left corner border)

    #385 Fred McGriff All Star (missing portions of lower left corner borders) (identical to saucywombat's card)

    #404 Craig Biggio All Star (missing huge portions of the upper left corner & right side borders, background behind him is white) (identical to BunchOBull's prediction)

    I'm tired.

    Cheers,
    gigfy >>



    Awesome! Congrats. If you post the scans I'll update our "sheet" so we can better see how the affected area moves across the cards.
  • saucywombatsaucywombat Posts: 982 ✭✭✭
    HUGE!

    Very exciting. It'll be interesting to see the Tapani and Lawton cards to see if the "streak" continues.

    The Biggio will be the prize.
    Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors.
    [email protected]
  • Very cool read! This thread keeps getting better and better... can't believe we have to wait until tonight though for the Biggio scan image
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭


    << <i>HUGE!

    Very exciting. It'll be interesting to see the Tapani and Lawton cards to see if the "streak" continues.

    The Biggio will be the prize. >>



    If I'm reading correctly, it sounds like the path fans out in different directions and becomes more erratic. It'll be great to see where to head next.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • Just got back from the future.

    Apparently the missing ink was from a spilled liquid and it spells out what appears to be FF. Unsure what that could mean though.



    - Add me to the list of those anxiously awaiting the updated sheet pic.
    imageimageimage
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    I had a pretty cool conversation with a gentleman today on the Beckett boards.

    Donovan pointed out a thread from February over there in which this gentleman (jacksoncoupage on the Beckett forums) had made a comment that he was skeptical of the whole NNOF's provenance...one reason being that it has been reported the error wasn't recognized until 1994.

    That year is thrown around because it is around the time that Beckett Baseball Card Magazine started showcasing the NNOF error... in reality, many examples were found long before this at the products release...it simply wasn't widely acknowledged.

    His other point of skepticism is what was most interesting to me, and I quote:

    "Certainly the "piece of paper" that obstructed the press had to extend beyond the Thomas card, right? Where are the "blackless" or "missing ink" versions of Thomas' neighbors on the F* sheet?"

    Ah ha! He had the same conclusion.

    While jacksoncoupage hasn't owned any orange sheet variations...he did own this gem:

    Doug Drabek from a blue sheet-
    image

    It appears he is a fan of errors and variations, as he also picked up these at one point:

    Colorless Variations-
    image
    image
    image

    He noted they were extremely miscut on the back. These were almost certainly not pack pulled.

    Anyway, he has found a blue sheet error...we may have a new hunt on our hands? It also says the idea that more orange variations exist wasn't solely my own. If anyone else is actively looking for these errors, they've not made it known, however.

    Also related to the Beckett thread that Donovan pointed out is a guy who claims he saw a blackless orange sheet card sell on eBay for ~$25. He doesn't remember which card it was. These statements were made a few weeks before I posted this thread, so they were not influenced by our thread. Therefore, there could be legitimacy here. I haven't spoken to him yet, but I remain skeptical. I have had multiple saved searches on eBay in relation to the blackless errors, in many different word combinations, for quite some time and I've never seen one listed. If it happened, I assume it was a while ago.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    GREAT. Blue variations too? So now I have to go back through 1000's of commons... AGAIN?

    haha
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭


    << <i>GREAT. Blue variations too? So now I have to go back through 1000's of commons... AGAIN?

    haha >>



    Yes, but at this point there is nothing to suggest it is a true variation over a factory defect...so we will have to see.

    Also, there is nothing to suggest they can have any pack association with the orange variations. They could be more or less rare if they are a true variation.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,545 ✭✭✭
    Ross, jacksoncoupage started a wonderful thread on the old Beckett boards regarding obscure variations. He is very knowledgeable about the 90s and was a great help to many of the player collectors. He certainly helped me identify not only some variations I had sitting in my own dupes box, but also several more to chase. That was nice, since my Butler collection had been stagnating!
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭
    I had a feeling he is a variation guy. He asked if I was interested in any others as well. Seems like a good resource for the hobby.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
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