1990 Topps Frank Thomas NNOF revisited...introduction to my theory

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  • << <i>UNBELIEVABLE that no one has noticed these in 20 years. >>



    That's how I feel about some of the FF variations.
    imageimageimage
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    Absolutely amazing. You've got the motherload Dave.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    Gameused, thank you for the link. If I can find a large sleeve to use on the sheet, I'd love to use the oversized toploaders. My issue with them is that they're not archival safe. I want to find something that is at a minimum PVC free.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • saucywombatsaucywombat Posts: 996 ✭✭✭
    When it rains it pours. (Went through my "star" cards that were separate from the commons)

    Behold Blackless Fred McGriff AS. More irregular pattern than on the other all-stars.

    image












    Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors.
    [email protected]
  • saucywombatsaucywombat Posts: 996 ✭✭✭
    Also seems to confirm that the streak runs up to Don Mattingly. As BoB predicted a very slight blackless corner on Don Mattingly. ( I have 2 examples of this and they are identical)

    image

    Lower Bottom Right (nothing shocking but it certainly is a variation from the standard)

    image

    Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors.
    [email protected]
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    The irregularity fits the fluid solution theory I think...as well as the way the blackless area around "Indians" on the Hart card is formed...as if the fluid moved across the plate, but the surface tension kept it from running into the etching so it flowed around the outside of the etched area.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    Awesome on the Mattingly!
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The irregularity fits the fluid solution theory I think...as well as the way the blackless area around "Indians" on the Hart card is formed...as if the fluid moved across the plate, but the surface tension kept it from running into the etching so it flowed around the outside of the etched area. >>



    I'm starting to agree.

    Just for your reference, remember we're talking about displacing ink though, not pushing out of an etching. [/geektalk]
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the clarification...so you are saying in a properly executed transfer, the etched portion would repel the ink and the smooth surface is designed to hold the ink?
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Thanks for the clarification...so you are saying in a properly executed transfer, the etched portion would repel the ink and the smooth surface is designed to hold the ink? >>




    I am by no means a master printer, I just work with them, so I'd hate to give you inaccurate information. This image might help explain how the offset process works:

    image
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    So if I'm looking at this properly...something could have been streaked across the offset cylinder and that area failed to hold ink and transfer it to the sheet.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭


    << <i>So if I'm looking at this properly...something could have been streaked across the offset cylinder and that area failed to hold ink and transfer it to the sheet. >>



    I believe that is correct.

    I'm sorry if I've confused things. I guess I only kind of know what I'm talking about.
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    No, this definitely helps. Thank you much.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • cwazzycwazzy Posts: 3,348
    How about an update picture, Ross? Put those paint skills to work! image

    Chris
    Chris
    My small collection
    Want List:
    '61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7
    Cardinal T206 cards
    Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    I'm working on one Chris, but in photoshop rather than paint. Having to redo some stuff.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭
    let me know if you need help with that Ross... be happy to assist.
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    The first step is to get a quality image of the sheet Chris. I was trying to piece a bunch of different images together, but it wasn't good enough quality. I should have it mounted sometime today and hopefully a good image then, I'll shoot you a copy when I get that done.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • cwazzycwazzy Posts: 3,348
    I'm starting to think we should all pitch in and buy Ross a camera! image

    Chris
    Chris
    My small collection
    Want List:
    '61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7
    Cardinal T206 cards
    Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    I had a really nice 10mp digital camera and recorder...it would be perfect right now.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭
    Let me see if I can get something rolling with the individual images. Be back in a few.
  • MorgothMorgoth Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭
    You guys quit having a fun informative thread about sports cards and get back to hatting on everyone else here.
    Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    Still no Biggios in the mail, but Dave was kind enough to help get me started on my quest by sending me his extra Hart variation. Thank you so much Dave, it feels amazing to have one of these in hand.

    image
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭
    Alright. Scaled down to fit on this page so it's not great, and the background is the skewed full sheet from page 1 of this thread, so it's hurting a little...

    but (minus the Mattingly) here's where I think we stand. Did I miss anything?

    image
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    Great work Chris...that's a lot better than I could have done with what we have right now...you just saved me a lot of fumbling frigging.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • nam812nam812 Posts: 9,285 ✭✭
    Most interesting thread in a long time, and congratulations to Ross for his huge effort on this discovery. Also, a nice round of applause for the guys digging through boxes of cards to help Ross out. Nice team effort going on here.
    My 1910 Champions T218 set at 100% with a GPA of 5.01, and all 153 cards are scanned.
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭
    See the two light spots on the McGriff? That (to me) almost solidifies the "liquid" theory... unless two random slices of paper (with very undefined edges), along with the big piece of paper, stuck to the press.
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Most interesting thread in a long time, and congratulations to Ross for his huge effort on this discovery. Also, a nice round of applause for the guys digging through boxes of cards to help Ross out. Nice team effort going on here. >>



    You know that's right. It's a lot more rewarding to see this thing come to fruition with the help of everyone than to keep it under wraps and possibly never get anywhere with it. It's much too vast of an error to ever complete on an individual basis...although Dave may come very close lol.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭


    << <i>See the two light spots on the McGriff? That (to me) almost solidifies the "liquid" theory... unless two random slices of paper (with very undefined edges), along with the big piece of paper, stuck to the press. >>



    I agree. It would have to had dried that way as well in order to print so many copies.

    edited to add...out to the frame shop/Home Depot/Target to look for mounting options.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭
    Good luck!
  • richtreerichtree Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭
    I went through about 3-4,000 commons of 90 topps ...

    nothing so far....


    plenty more to go for another day
    Buying:
    90 Fleer Dave Martinez yellow 90'Front
    90 UD #702 Mike Witt
    91 Topps Mark Whiten hand out of the border
    Topps Heritage Cut out Alex Gordon
    Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
    80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
    90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
    90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
    1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
    81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
    91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
  • I worked prepress for a commercial printing press for 7 years. I think this was either a bad black plate or possibly (less likely) a bad blanket. The way offset printing works is the ink goes onto the plate, the plate then comes in contact with the blanket, which then comes in contact with the paper. So the plate never actually touches the paper.

    Now a plate is good for a certain number of impressions and then has to be remade, the blanket lasts much much longer. When the plate was being exposed something could have obstructed the light from exposing that area or something could have happened when it went through the chemical bath to cure it. Back in 1990 the plate would have been made by placing film on top of the plate and then exposing it to light for a few minutes, and then running the pate through a processor. Now plates are directly printed from the computer and then run through a processor (direct to plate). We had to really inspect the plates before they went on press, because all kinds of imperfections could cause "holes" in the image. Somebody must have been asleep not to catch that bad black plate.

    I do not think it was a just a loose piece of stock, this would seem to only block the image for 1 sheet and then be gone. Presses have too much going on to have something block the image and then stick around. It would have to be something actually wrong with the plate or blanket.
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    I do not think it was a just a loose piece of stock, this would seem to only block the image for 1 sheet and then be gone. Presses have too much going on to have something block the image and then stick around. It would have to be something actually wrong with the plate or blanket. >>



    Great info.

    Yeah if it was paper it would have then likely just smeared (or printed poorly because of the transfer from the scrap to the paper) after one run, right? The more I thought about that, the more it didn't make sense that it could be paper.
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    Great! I was hoping someone with printing background would give input here.

    So, would you say it was most likely an error that occurred in the production of the plate, more so than anything else?
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com


  • << <i>Great! I was hoping someone with printing background would give input here.

    So, would you say it was most likely an error that occurred in the production of the plate, more so than anything else? >>



    Yes, I would say it was most likely an error with the making of the plate.
  • saucywombatsaucywombat Posts: 996 ✭✭✭
    Chris

    Nice work on the big picture image.

    I'm officially out of discoveries, I've checked all of the "orange" cards in my possession.

    Running the lines over to the point on Mattingly, it looks like there should be a NNOF Robin Ventura out there somewhere.

    Of course as it is likely an irregular area perhaps it's not a solid streak across the plate, but at this point the evidence would suggest that was the case.

    Looks like the most likely candidates still out there are:

    Darin Jackson
    Marcus Lawton
    Kevin Tapani
    George Canale
    Robin Ventura
    Dennis Cook
    Greg Harris

    Happy Hunting everyone! Will be excited to see what someone else can come up with.
    Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors.
    [email protected]
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    With as fast as the last few days have been, now comes the dreaded lull. It will probably be awhile before someone else comes across a jackpot like you Dave. I really hope to find the Biggio soon.

    On the topic of the Ventura, I can only guess it's a partial blackless. When I had the ruler laid out on the sheet a few weeks ago, I remember thinking to myself, "there's no way that could have gone unnoticed if it exists." Let us hope though. I even consider the Mattingly an error with it's little gap, I'm sure the Ventura has some sort of variation.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • mdkuommdkuom Posts: 934 ✭✭✭
    Amazing work! This was a great read. Congrats Ross.
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    Thanks Mark, we've definitely had a lot more early success than I could have ever imagined.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,576 ✭✭✭
    Amazing work, everyone! Ross, great job on getting the ball rolling. I too am shocked that this hasn't been puzzled out before. Glad you were the one.
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    Thank you Geordie...have you gone through your '90s commons yet?

    I found a dealer online who sells the UltraPro poster toploaders for $17 delivered, so I went that route.

    It's 29" wide, so that leaves about a half inch on each side. I figure I'll stop by a frame shop and pick up some PVC free cellophane to make a sleeve out of. Then I'll place it in the toploader.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭
    What's the size of the sheet? I've got some mylar poster sleeves that might work... I store art prints in them and they're 100% archival. Not good for repeated handling, but if you're going to slip them in a top loader they'll work perf.
  • VitoCo1972VitoCo1972 Posts: 6,064 ✭✭✭
    Wow, I hadn't read this thread because I didn't think it would interest me, but WOW. I am super impressed. Great work guys. This board is the freaking best.
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭


    << <i>What's the size of the sheet? I've got some mylar poster sleeves that might work... I store art prints in them and they're 100% archival. Not good for repeated handling, but if you're going to slip them in a top loader they'll work perf. >>



    The sheet is 43"x28" Chris. If you've got any that size or know where I can purchase them, I'm definitely interested. Thanks for the help.

    edited to add: I'm glad you've enjoyed in Mike. I'm sure there are a lot of vintage guys who haven't seen this thread for the same reason, but I bet they'd find interest in it if they give it a look.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>What's the size of the sheet? I've got some mylar poster sleeves that might work... I store art prints in them and they're 100% archival. Not good for repeated handling, but if you're going to slip them in a top loader they'll work perf. >>



    The sheet is 43"x28" Chris. If you've got any that size or know where I can purchase them, I'm definitely interested. Thanks for the help.

    edited to add: I'm glad you've enjoyed in Mike. I'm sure there are a lot of vintage guys who haven't seen this thread for the same reason, but I bet they'd find interest in it if they give it a look. >>



    Well I have good news and bad news then. The sleeves I have aren't that large. But, Bags Unlimited has sleeves that will work. Check this page:

    http://www.bagsunlimited.com/cart/browse.asp?subcat=144

    Problem is you have to buy in quantity. But if you scroll all the way down you'll see 2- and 3-sheet poster sleeves that will be oversized, and you can cut them down. You only have to buy 5 and they're inexpensive. Plus BU is always free shipping...
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    Cool, I'll look now. Thanks for the link.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • richtreerichtree Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭
    anyone find any that they would like to trade / sell ?
    Buying:
    90 Fleer Dave Martinez yellow 90'Front
    90 UD #702 Mike Witt
    91 Topps Mark Whiten hand out of the border
    Topps Heritage Cut out Alex Gordon
    Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
    80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
    90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
    90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
    1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
    81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
    91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
  • saucywombatsaucywombat Posts: 996 ✭✭✭
    Posted a link to this thread on the Beckett board, hopefully someone will bite.

    Beckett seems to have some sort of strange block on posting numbers of any kind in your posts. For example "1990 " was deleted from my title and I had to go back and edit to put the card #'s in.
    Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors.
    [email protected]
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭
    Had a stack of 50 Biggios come in today...and, as would be expected, nothing. I can't afford to buy these cards that I can't even sell to recoup my money anymore lol.
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • saucywombatsaucywombat Posts: 996 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Had a stack of 50 Biggios come in today...and, as would be expected, nothing. I can't afford to buy these cards that I can't even sell to recoup my money anymore lol. >>



    Maybe I can trade you the 50 or so Fisk AS coming my way. Cheap thrill for $8 - what more can you ask for? Arby's rings that out of you these days.
    Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors.
    [email protected]
  • slantycouchslantycouch Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Had a stack of 50 Biggios come in today...and, as would be expected, nothing. I can't afford to buy these cards that I can't even sell to recoup my money anymore lol. >>



    Maybe I can trade you the 50 or so Fisk AS coming my way. Cheap thrill for $8 - what more can you ask for? Arby's rings that out of you these days. >>



    I had ~25/each Acker, Hart and Morris come in today.

    Nothing.

    Yay kindling!
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