1990topps blackless u still have some from trade / sell ?
thx
rich
Buying: Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon 80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name" 90 ProSet Dexter Manley error 90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back 1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”) 81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat) 91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
I don't believe the Jeff King no=white back error is a one-off. It seems more likely that many, many sheets were printed before the error was caught and corrected. If it was only a handful of sheets the evidenced the error card, it is likely they would have been discarded rather than cut and packed out.
I'm guessing there are other examples out there in the commons boxes.
OK , so I have a vending case I am about to bust, is there a final list of all the possible blackless 1990 cards?
So I don't ruin my eyeballs?
thank you all
rich
richtree@gmail.com
Buying: Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon 80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name" 90 ProSet Dexter Manley error 90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back 1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”) 81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat) 91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
104 - Bob Knepper (missing black border bottom right corner) 141 - John Hart (manager) (missing black border top left corner) 227 - Kevin Tapani (missing black border upper right corner) 302 - Marcus Lawton (missing black border lower right and upper left corners, missing part of last name) 383 - John Morris (missing small portion of black border in upper right) 385 - Fred McGriff AS (missing black border lower left corner) 386 - Julio Franco AS (missing black border top and top right corner, missing black in background) 392 - Carlton Fisk AS (missing black border lower left corner) 395 - Jeff Russell AS (missing black border lower right corner and upper left side, missing black in background) 404 - Craig Biggio AS (missing black border upper left corner & right side, top right background behind him is white) 406 - Joe Magrane AS (missing black border upper right corner) 414 - Frank Thomas (rookie) (missing name, black border lower right corner / bottom and part of left side) 728 - Jim Acker (missing small portion of black border in lower left)
New "blackless" I found in a recent 1990 Topps factory set purchase:
From the GREEN sheet, Roger Salkeld:
Check out the bottom left of the card.
And another from the ORANGE sheet, Mike Fetters (I think this was a longer running variation rather than exclusive to the Thomas "Blackless" sheets - I have found 2 from separate sources):
There is a noticeable spot on his chest missing black ink. It was later corrected with a sort of 'mottling' and the last version seems to show no sign of airbrushing/mottling.
Looking at the graphic again and pictures of the orange sheet it seems certain there is a Bob Knepper out there and probably a Kal Daniels. Darrin Jackson in the upper right corner is also a possibility.
Bob Knepper is the key to the next step in determining the extent of the "swath".
Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors. saucywombat@hotmail.com
I'm just disappointed in that I had saved the money to purchase them from him for the price he offered, but I never heard back from him after 2 emails.
Sorry, Bunch o Bull, for failing to respond. I thought I had clearly explained my plan to list them on ebay, first to get a feeling for the market value (don't want to get screwed again as I did on the $10 sale of a NNOF Thomas) and second in hopes of possibly making enough on one set to offer you the others at a "price" you could afford. It just took me way too long to get them listed. The cards have been closely watched since within the first few hours of listing, but it's fair to assume that most of those people are from this board and no offers will come of it. We'll see, the auctions end in less than 8 hours.
I like that he shows up and apologizes for not responding to your offers. I suppose it is a coincidence that his apology comes hours before his ebay auctions end with zero bids. I guess he is trying hard to rebuild the bridge he burnt.
<< <i> I'm sure one of the fellas around here picked it up...though there could be a zealous Franco collector out there. >>
I'd really like to see what they go for in a regular auction... I don't think this is really representative of what any of them (even the Franco) is "worth".
Buying: Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon 80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name" 90 ProSet Dexter Manley error 90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back 1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”) 81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat) 91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
Thanks to James Jones for showing me this listing.
Anyway, a gentleman has found a new Thomas RC variation. While it's not related to the specific NNOF plate, it's certainly a black plate error and a very neat find.
He's selling off the rest of the packs from the case in which he pulled the variation.
Ok, I need the professional printers to step in on this one, but I want to open a discussion.
Back story: The gentleman who found the Thomas error variation also found a Tapani with some black border missing on the right side. This is similar to the findings that have been made thus far.
----
It was once mentioned by one of our resident printers that during the production of the printing plates, errors are supposed to be isolated and corrected by one of several different means.
Is it possible that the plate that caused the recently found errors was the precursor in plate production to the plate that caused the NNOF Thomas and blackless errors? What I'm saying is, might it be possible that small discrepancies in the production process of the first plate were isolated and "corrections" made; however, these corrections were either not completed, or done incorrectly, leading to an even more catastrophic error...the blackless cards.
From what we've been told by the pros, the blackless errors were caused by a faulty plate. That in itself should eliminate the possibility that the newly isolated error card was created by the same black plate. However, I think it may be possible that the two black plates have some relation.
This is layman speak obviously, but if one of you can take what we know and run with it, I'd appreciate it.
In my opinion and with the limited knowledge I have about the offset printing process, you are absolutely correct in saying that there is little chance the plate that created this "new" error is the same that created the NNOF.
However I do think it's completely possible they could be related in some way.
<< <i>*****Edit: I saw the link a few posts above. lol*****
I may be a little behind because I've only been through a little over half the thread but has anyone seen this auction with Thomas variations with missing black line partitions: >>
This means he's going to get about $5,000 for that display case. Although honestly, I can't say I'd price them any different. Actually, what I'd do is try like hell to get PSA to recognize the blackless cards and make millions. But that's just me.
<< <i>I think $8/pack of these is very high for these.
This means he's going to get about $5,000 for that display case. Although honestly, I can't say I'd price them any different. Actually, what I'd do is try like hell to get PSA to recognize the blackless cards and make millions. But that's just me. >>
Yeah I guess if it were proven that a 'regular" blackless card might come from those packs, I'd be willing to take a shot. But right now it's a pretty big jump to say the cards coming from these packs are on the same level as those that have been identified in this thread.
Love to see a scan of the Tapani before making any further conclusions.
Greetings to everyone! I am the guy (my name is Joe) who recently pulled some "new" blackless errors form the 1990 Topps display wax case. I have enjoyed reading this entire thread over the past several days. I know that many of you have put a lot of work into developing the theory that it must have been a bad plate that caused the NNOF Thomas error, along with the attached errors to nearby cards following the diagonal streak all the way up the "F" sheet. It was great to have some posters with printing experience give their input. After what I have found over the past week though, I am not sure if anyone should be ruling out other possible causes.
Before I go into what I have found, I feel a few things are worth noting from past posts. One of the posters with printing experience stated that if it was a bad plate, someone would have had to been completely asleep to miss such a large and blatant error in the production of the plate. A few of the posters also mentioned the possibility of the errors being caused by a blanket problem. I believe this needs to be considered, along with the possibility that it was something obstructing the ink - either on the blanket (which is what actually comes in contact with the cards), or between the plate and the blanket. If it was an obstruction (a piece or several pieces of crumpled stock, paper, etc), it could have come loose eventually on its own - also a possibility mentioned in past posts. This might explain why nobody really knew about the problem - thus they ended up in packs and not discovered until much later. If it were a plate problem - it would have been a big ordeal - employees at Topps would have had to have known about it to stop production and remove the bad plate. You would think that word would have gotten out about this to the public at some point - if that is the way it went down.
What I am saying is that nobody should rule out anything. I think you will especially feel this way after what I have just pulled from the 23 wax packs I opened last week. I got the Frank Thomas card missing black ink on the border above his name, along with some from the tips of the 'H' and a bit from the 'O'. Also, I pulled a Kevin Tapani missing a small strip of black on the right double border - shown below as well. A few important things to note here: I did not find any other random missing black on any other orange "F" sheet card - only the Thomas and Tapani cards - both of which were on the diagonal streak of affected cards in the diagonal of missing ink that caused the NNOF error. The ink missing on these 2 cards was also in the same particular affected area on the NNOF streak. An even more decisive factor is that the location and the angle of missing ink on my Tapani card also matches the angle of the NNOF streak. These facts make it highly likely that my errors were printed around the same time as the NNOF errors - from the same plate. If this is the case, then it would lean towards there having been something obstructing the plate or blanket, or some other blanket issue. Such a problem might have been easily fixed or even possibly resolved on its own after many sheets passed through (also a possibility mentioned by one of the posters with printing experience). Some of the obstruction (or other unknown issue) might have remained for a while causing my less severe errors on some of the same cards.
Anyway, I don't think anyone -with or without printing experience - can say for sure what did or did not happen with these blackless errors. We may never know. Ok, I tried to provide scans - but I got a message saying max attachment size is 50KB. Can someone help with this?
I really don't think this is a blanket issue. Had the blanket had an obstuction or had a chemical or some other issue altered the blanket to cause rejection of the ink, pooling of the ink would occur around the area causing a "halo" effect.
At this point, there is no better or more logical explanation than a faulty plate. While it may be true that Topps employees had to have been completely out in space not to notice this error, it can be said they allowed the presses to run knowingly. It could also be said they were simply oblivious...even today QC isn't the best and many blatant errors make it into packs.
The faulty plate theory simply doesn't support or explain the finding of my additional "new" errors. You can't just brush it under the rug. And your theory about employees trying to fix my error plate, and then somehow ruining the plate 1000 times worse to create the NNOF is far more far-fetched than anything else presented here. None of it jives.
I understand having wishful thinking in that your card was created by the same plate, but it is virtually impossible.
The theory about the plate correction isn't that far fetched either. I simply posted it to try to give you some sort of assurance that you indeed had found a neat variation that **may** have some connection to the NNOF plate. I'm trying to locate another gentleman who has pulled the same variation as yourself as I type this.
There is no need to get testy over an open discussion.
edited to add:
In the end, there is absolutely no reason to believe the two are connected at this point, other than wishful thinking.
Wishful thinking? Until we have some logical explanations for what I have pointed out- other than your suggesting it is pure coincidence, there are still many open possibilities. I am sorry if you feel I am getting testy, but you acting like you know exactly how and what happened and "case closed" is out of line.
No, what is out of line is claiming a well-substantiated theory is blown out of the water because of a slight variation in printing quality...at this point, the two cards are only coincidental.
There are many instances of slight loss of black ink on sheet F and many of the other sheets from 1990 Topps. That doesn't make their origins the same as the confirmed NNOF sheet cards. Some overlap is likely to occur.
I'm your biggest supporter here, I really am...but nothing has been shown to justify an overhaul of the current accepted theory.
Sorry. It just sounds like you want to have an "open" discussion, but only if it fits your theory. My findings are significant enough to at least open things up for other possibilities to be considered....that is all I am saying. If you want this to be "your" discussion, and only consider what fits exactly to your theory, I can leave. I would be OK with that.
The only theory I had was that more cards existed that were missing a significant amount of black ink. Anything else I theorized was wrong because I didn't have any grasp of the printing process at the time.
The theory as to how the cards came to be was developed by everyone else, including a half-dozen individuals who are/were in the printing business. Those I have talked to continue to stand by the current theory despite the existence of a different Thomas variation.
There is great evidence to support the faulty plate theory and until that evidence is refuted, it is the best we've got.
Comments
thx
rich
Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
I'm guessing there are other examples out there in the commons boxes.
Good hunting!
So I don't ruin my eyeballs?
thank you all
rich
richtree@gmail.com
Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
104 - Bob Knepper (missing black border bottom right corner)
141 - John Hart (manager) (missing black border top left corner)
227 - Kevin Tapani (missing black border upper right corner)
302 - Marcus Lawton (missing black border lower right and upper left corners, missing part of last name)
383 - John Morris (missing small portion of black border in upper right)
385 - Fred McGriff AS (missing black border lower left corner)
386 - Julio Franco AS (missing black border top and top right corner, missing black in background)
392 - Carlton Fisk AS (missing black border lower left corner)
395 - Jeff Russell AS (missing black border lower right corner and upper left side, missing black in background)
404 - Craig Biggio AS (missing black border upper left corner & right side, top right background behind him is white)
406 - Joe Magrane AS (missing black border upper right corner)
414 - Frank Thomas (rookie) (missing name, black border lower right corner / bottom and part of left side)
728 - Jim Acker (missing small portion of black border in lower left)
BOLD (denotes the ones I have)
Cheers,
gigfy
<< <i> BOLD (denotes the ones I have)
>>
lucky...
From the GREEN sheet, Roger Salkeld:
Check out the bottom left of the card.
And another from the ORANGE sheet, Mike Fetters (I think this was a longer running variation rather than exclusive to the Thomas "Blackless" sheets - I have found 2 from separate sources):
There is a noticeable spot on his chest missing black ink. It was later corrected with a sort of 'mottling' and the last version seems to show no sign of airbrushing/mottling.
Collecting Robin Ventura and Matt Luke.
Rodney
saucywombat@hotmail.com
Bob Knepper is the key to the next step in determining the extent of the "swath".
saucywombat@hotmail.com
Link
"and I do want to help him on his quest" < $$
<< <i>Yeah... saw that.
"and I do want to help him on his quest" < $$ >>
I'm just disappointed in that I had saved the money to purchase them from him for the price he offered, but I never heard back from him after 2 emails.
I put the money towards Allen & Ginter instead.
Without this thread, they would still be in his common box.
Greed wins.
Now I'm off to hoard more FF on packs showing.
<< <i>Your offer and I offered to add in as did another.
Without this thread, they would still be in his common box.
Greed wins.
Now I'm off to hoard more FF on packs showing.
I don't blame him for selling them, I understand needing money. I just wish the lines of communication hadn't have been severed.
But in all seriousness, mephoto2001- My offer still stands to help contribute to BOB getting one/them.
<< <i>Not possible. Who would hate Ginter? >>
Found one. The person who wrote on this card...
I wonder where it's at now?
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Cheers,
gigfy
<< <i>Julio Franco was sold for $55 plus shipping. The Biggio & Fisk ended without any bids.
Cheers,
gigfy >>
I'm sure one of the fellas around here picked it up...though there could be a zealous Franco collector out there.
<< <i>
I'm sure one of the fellas around here picked it up...though there could be a zealous Franco collector out there. >>
I'd really like to see what they go for in a regular auction... I don't think this is really representative of what any of them (even the Franco) is "worth".
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
If anyone has a scan of any of the other cards (scanned as actual size) please forward to me and I'll add them in.
Happy Hunting Everyone.
saucywombat@hotmail.com
Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
Anyway, a gentleman has found a new Thomas RC variation. While it's not related to the specific NNOF plate, it's certainly a black plate error and a very neat find.
He's selling off the rest of the packs from the case in which he pulled the variation.
LINK
Back story:
The gentleman who found the Thomas error variation also found a Tapani with some black border missing on the right side. This is similar to the findings that have been made thus far.
----
It was once mentioned by one of our resident printers that during the production of the printing plates, errors are supposed to be isolated and corrected by one of several different means.
Is it possible that the plate that caused the recently found errors was the precursor in plate production to the plate that caused the NNOF Thomas and blackless errors? What I'm saying is, might it be possible that small discrepancies in the production process of the first plate were isolated and "corrections" made; however, these corrections were either not completed, or done incorrectly, leading to an even more catastrophic error...the blackless cards.
From what we've been told by the pros, the blackless errors were caused by a faulty plate. That in itself should eliminate the possibility that the newly isolated error card was created by the same black plate. However, I think it may be possible that the two black plates have some relation.
This is layman speak obviously, but if one of you can take what we know and run with it, I'd appreciate it.
I may be a little behind because I've only been through a little over half the thread but has anyone seen this auction with Thomas variations with missing black line partitions: http://cgi.ebay.com/1990-Topps-Frank-Thomas-NNOF-No-Name-Front-ERROR-PACK_W0QQitemZ110424700211QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_SM_Sports_Cards?hash=item19b5d33533&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
In my opinion and with the limited knowledge I have about the offset printing process, you are absolutely correct in saying that there is little chance the plate that created this "new" error is the same that created the NNOF.
However I do think it's completely possible they could be related in some way.
A new twist!
<< <i>*****Edit: I saw the link a few posts above. lol*****
I may be a little behind because I've only been through a little over half the thread but has anyone seen this auction with Thomas variations with missing black line partitions: >>
I think $8/pack of these is very high for these.
This means he's going to get about $5,000 for that display case. Although honestly, I can't say I'd price them any different. Actually, what I'd do is try like hell to get PSA to recognize the blackless cards and make millions. But that's just me.
<< <i>I think $8/pack of these is very high for these.
This means he's going to get about $5,000 for that display case. Although honestly, I can't say I'd price them any different. Actually, what I'd do is try like hell to get PSA to recognize the blackless cards and make millions. But that's just me. >>
Yeah I guess if it were proven that a 'regular" blackless card might come from those packs, I'd be willing to take a shot. But right now it's a pretty big jump to say the cards coming from these packs are on the same level as those that have been identified in this thread.
Love to see a scan of the Tapani before making any further conclusions.
Before I go into what I have found, I feel a few things are worth noting from past posts. One of the posters with printing experience stated that if it was a bad plate, someone would have had to been completely asleep to miss such a large and blatant error in the production of the plate. A few of the posters also mentioned the possibility of the errors being caused by a blanket problem. I believe this needs to be considered, along with the possibility that it was something obstructing the ink - either on the blanket (which is what actually comes in contact with the cards), or between the plate and the blanket. If it was an obstruction (a piece or several pieces of crumpled stock, paper, etc), it could have come loose eventually on its own - also a possibility mentioned in past posts. This might explain why nobody really knew about the problem - thus they ended up in packs and not discovered until much later. If it were a plate problem - it would have been a big ordeal - employees at Topps would have had to have known about it to stop production and remove the bad plate. You would think that word would have gotten out about this to the public at some point - if that is the way it went down.
What I am saying is that nobody should rule out anything. I think you will especially feel this way after what I have just pulled from the 23 wax packs I opened last week. I got the Frank Thomas card missing black ink on the border above his name, along with some from the tips of the 'H' and a bit from the 'O'. Also, I pulled a Kevin Tapani missing a small strip of black on the right double border - shown below as well. A few important things to note here: I did not find any other random missing black on any other orange "F" sheet card - only the Thomas and Tapani cards - both of which were on the diagonal streak of affected cards in the diagonal of missing ink that caused the NNOF error. The ink missing on these 2 cards was also in the same particular affected area on the NNOF streak. An even more decisive factor is that the location and the angle of missing ink on my Tapani card also matches the angle of the NNOF streak. These facts make it highly likely that my errors were printed around the same time as the NNOF errors - from the same plate. If this is the case, then it would lean towards there having been something obstructing the plate or blanket, or some other blanket issue. Such a problem might have been easily fixed or even possibly resolved on its own after many sheets passed through (also a possibility mentioned by one of the posters with printing experience). Some of the obstruction (or other unknown issue) might have remained for a while causing my less severe errors on some of the same cards.
Anyway, I don't think anyone -with or without printing experience - can say for sure what did or did not happen with these blackless errors. We may never know. Ok, I tried to provide scans - but I got a message saying max attachment size is 50KB. Can someone help with this?
At this point, there is no better or more logical explanation than a faulty plate. While it may be true that Topps employees had to have been completely out in space not to notice this error, it can be said they allowed the presses to run knowingly. It could also be said they were simply oblivious...even today QC isn't the best and many blatant errors make it into packs.
<< <i>Ok, I tried to provide scans - but I got a message saying max attachment size is 50KB. Can someone help with this? >>
Do you have a photobucket, flickr, google account etc. Just upload the picture and paste the link in the post.
I am curious to see the Tapani.
cheers,
gigfy
The theory about the plate correction isn't that far fetched either. I simply posted it to try to give you some sort of assurance that you indeed had found a neat variation that **may** have some connection to the NNOF plate. I'm trying to locate another gentleman who has pulled the same variation as yourself as I type this.
There is no need to get testy over an open discussion.
edited to add:
In the end, there is absolutely no reason to believe the two are connected at this point, other than wishful thinking.
There are many instances of slight loss of black ink on sheet F and many of the other sheets from 1990 Topps. That doesn't make their origins the same as the confirmed NNOF sheet cards. Some overlap is likely to occur.
I'm your biggest supporter here, I really am...but nothing has been shown to justify an overhaul of the current accepted theory.
As there's numerous broken border, incomplete lettering flaws over the years. If these are related or just a coincidence, I dunno.
Your PM (Private Messages) are turned off. (In profile)
Donovan
The theory as to how the cards came to be was developed by everyone else, including a half-dozen individuals who are/were in the printing business. Those I have talked to continue to stand by the current theory despite the existence of a different Thomas variation.
There is great evidence to support the faulty plate theory and until that evidence is refuted, it is the best we've got.