<< <i>Do any of you ever get the feeling that PCGS rations out the 70's in certain ratios on moderns based on how many you send in >>
That was my rant many moons ago....It was said that they only give out "a small percentage of 70's" . This creates an artificial rarity and boinks the many "69's" that would probably qualify as 70's. If I cherrypick 20 coins out of 100 and can find no imperfections on any of them I should expect at least 15 70's. I would bet I would only get 2 at most..just because that's the way it is.
I recently did this with 08/08 ASE's across the street...21 cherrypicked....13 70's returned.....sent 16 08/07's.....12 70's returned. Looser standards??? or true grading not dependant on "just because"????....Flame me if you will but this is only my opinion >>
I won't flame you but I think what you did was silly. Wasting money to play test subject with your money.
What subject were we on ? I'm trying to egg this thread on to 4000.
<< <i> What subject were we on ? I'm trying to egg this thread on to 4000. >>
It'll get there soon enough. I wish that second apostrophe wasn't in the title, though. I can't stop looking at it, and why I grade this thread an A as opposed to an A+.
late last year i bought / won a PCGS PR70DCAM SF Old Mint $5.00 Gold.. when it arrived and i tore into the package and slid it out to examine it.. the side with the building on it had a frost break on one of the building's windows that shined out at me like a searchlight.. no tilting needed to see it.. back it went.. full refund.. there's no way in the world any competant, skilled, and HIGHLY PAID grader should have missed that..
a couple months later i took my 2007 Jamestown Gold Unc to the Long Beach show and submitted it to PCGS.. i'd been staring at it for months and couldn't find one damn thing wrong with it.. as far as i was concerned, it was perfect. after the usual agonizing wait, i got the grade: MS70.. sold it on eBay for full price guide ($700.00)..
meanwhile, i have a few "across the street" Modern Silver Dollar Commemoratives graded 70.. and they are, indeed, flawless.. not a tick or hit or frost break or nuttin.. i know full-well who owns these boreds.. but yes, i DO believe they portion out the number of 70s they give out based on some algorithm only they know, to artifically keep themselves the "leader" in prices realized, especially for Modern anythings.. when it comes to "classic" stuff.. i think the two are pretty much equal.. i'm sure if i tossed my "across the street" MS70 Ben Franklin Founding Father up on eBay i might get $75.00 for it.. if it was in a "this side of the street" MS70 slab, i'd get multiples of that.. but this side of the street's submission form FORBIDS you from submitting anyone else's MS70 as a cross-over and specifying MS70 as the minimum grade.. got a submission form handy?.. flip it over and read the fine print.. then ponder what that means.. and then explain how that SF Old Mint Gold with a frost break on it so obvious you could see it from a foot away got into a PR70DCAM slab.. and no one pays me $100k a year (or more) to grade coins for a living..
these graders are human beings with bad days, good days, headaches, and the occasional discomfort of irregularity (as shown on teevee) just like anyone else.. they're not super-human perfect cyborgs who never make mistakes.. and they DO make mistakes.. a long time ago, the conventional wisdom was to never buy a car made on a Monday or a Friday.. on Mondays, no one wants to be at work, and on Fridays, everyone wants to go home.. so cars built on Tusdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays had the fewest defects.. you used to be able to lift up the rubber covering in the trunk of a car and see a label, slap-dash glued in there with the actual build date.. i don't think you can do that any more.. the best you can get now is the month and year the car was built off the sticker on the door jam.. so perhaps the same applies to coin graders as it does to the folks on car assembly lines.. sloppy work on Mondays and Fridays.. but go prove it..
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
I still need an answer as to weather or not I need to crack my PCGS 69's (1st strike reverse of 07)out of their cases before sending them to NGC to be regraded for possible 70's. I really don't want to crack them out if NGC is not going to grade them higher even though I feel they should be graded higher.
<< <i>I still need an answer as to weather or not I need to crack my PCGS 69's (1st strike reverse of 07)out of their cases before sending them to NGC to be regraded for possible 70's. I really don't want to crack them out if NGC is not going to grade them higher even though I feel they should be graded higher. >>
From the pictures you have provided here, I say its a toss up.
<< <i>I still need an answer as to weather (sic) or not I need to crack my PCGS 69's (1st strike reverse of 07)out of their cases before sending them to NGC to be regraded for possible 70's. I really don't want to crack them out if NGC is not going to grade them higher even though I feel they should be graded higher. >>
i really want to put a stack of $100 chips on #17 and watch the ball drop into #17..
in your case, assuming you want to do this for possible future selling.. the question is.. what's selling for the higher price?.. a PCGS 69 FS, or an NGC 70 (blue or brown label).. i don't have either the time nor the desire to go grab stats off eBay but they are regularly posted here.. but this 08/07 thing is so wildly dynamic, that the figure$ change from one week to the next, one day to the next.. so already, last weeks number$ are virtually meaningless..
tough decision ya got there.. me, i'd probably just leave them as they are, depending on whether i bought them raw or already slabbed.. if you crack them out and submit them to NGC, you have NO guarantee of any kind that you'll get one or any 70s.. you'll pay more fees, plus postage both ways.. and you won't get them back for weeks.. there's simply no way to know what NGC will give them.. no matter how perfect they look.. unfortunately, as you know, it's up to them, not you, to decide what grade to put on the label.. and you'll get brown labels, not blue "Early Release" labels, if you want to factor that in too..
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>late last year i bought / won a PCGS PR70DCAM SF Old Mint $5.00 Gold.. when it arrived and i tore into the package and slid it out to examine it.. the side with the building on it had a frost break on one of the building's windows that shined out at me like a searchlight.. no tilting needed to see it.. back it went.. full refund.. there's no way in the world any competant, skilled, and HIGHLY PAID grader should have missed that..
a couple months later i took my 2007 Jamestown Gold Unc to the Long Beach show and submitted it to PCGS.. i'd been staring at it for months and couldn't find one damn thing wrong with it.. as far as i was concerned, it was perfect. after the usual agonizing wait, i got the grade: MS70.. sold it on eBay for full price guide ($700.00)..
meanwhile, i have a few "across the street" Modern Silver Dollar Commemoratives graded 70.. and they are, indeed, flawless.. not a tick or hit or frost break or nuttin.. i know full-well who owns these boreds.. but yes, i DO believe they portion out the number of 70s they give out based on some algorithm only they know, to artifically keep themselves the "leader" in prices realized, especially for Modern anythings.. when it comes to "classic" stuff.. i think the two are pretty much equal.. i'm sure if i tossed my "across the street" MS70 Ben Franklin Founding Father up on eBay i might get $75.00 for it.. if it was in a "this side of the street" MS70 slab, i'd get multiples of that.. but this side of the street's submission form FORBIDS you from submitting anyone else's MS70 as a cross-over and specifying MS70 as the minimum grade.. got a submission form handy?.. flip it over and read the fine print.. then ponder what that means.. and then explain how that SF Old Mint Gold with a frost break on it so obvious you could see it from a foot away got into a PR70DCAM slab.. and no one pays me $100k a year (or more) to grade coins for a living..
these graders are human beings with bad days, good days, headaches, and the occasional discomfort of irregularity (as shown on teevee) just like anyone else.. they're not super-human perfect cyborgs who never make mistakes.. and they DO make mistakes.. a long time ago, the conventional wisdom was to never buy a car made on a Monday or a Friday.. on Mondays, no one wants to be at work, and on Fridays, everyone wants to go home.. so cars built on Tusdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays had the fewest defects.. you used to be able to lift up the rubber covering in the trunk of a car and see a label, slap-dash glued in there with the actual build date.. i don't think you can do that any more.. the best you can get now is the month and year the car was built off the sticker on the door jam.. so perhaps the same applies to coin graders as it does to the folks on car assembly lines.. sloppy work on Mondays and Fridays.. but go prove it.. >>
So why would PCGS give out 70s based on allocation instead of merit? There is no monetary benefit to them to withhold 70s; they get the same revenue if the coin goes 68, 69 or 70. I would think it would be quite the opposite in that the more 70s they give, the less valuable the coins are, and the less liability they have if the coin spots. If that $5900 [if that was a legitimate sale] 2008-w rev 07 ms70 FS spots how much do you think the owner will get as compensation? I suppose their propensity to restrict 70s mite cost them some submissions. Better to ask why NGC, ICG and others give out so many instead of why PCGS gives out so few, even tho it is a coin and production process which shud be amenable to producing many scads of top grade coins.
<< <i> So why would PCGS give out 70s based on allocation instead of merit? There is no monetary benefit to them to withhold 70s; they get the same revenue if the coin goes 68, 69 or 70. >>
the reason should be horribly obvious.. if they hand out fewer 70s, those coins are worth more than anyone else's 70.. they sell for more, often FAR more, often (with many Moderns), ten times more.. thus this perception that they are "tighter" graders gets them more submissions, and more income (and there is your monetary benefit).. as people submit more coins to get those elusive 70s.. so they dribble them out and people play the happy hour music if they get a PCGS-70 anything..
there is ONE known Lincoln Memorial cent in a PCGS MS70 slab.. TeleTrade sold it two years ago.. for an obscene amount of money.. do you honestly think that the US Mint has only made ONE Lincoln cent since 1959 that could grade PCGS MS70? out of the billions and billions Minted?.. it's a trophy coin.. crack it out of the slab and you have a cent.. only that chunk of plastic and some pixels on its label made someone pay as much for it as a new car.. well.. a cheap new car..
i submit coins i plan to sell later to PCGS simply because they're worth more in that plastic than in the same grade in anyone else's plastic.. do i think they are absolutely positively more accurate graders than "the other side of the street"?.. no, i don't.. i think the other guys are every bit as competant.. but it's a simple fact of life that with Moderns, one company gives out far fewer 70s than the other, so they sell for far more.. with many other coins, all things being equal, it makes no difference whose slab it's in..
you know, because i told you, that i crossed over a SEGS VG 1914-D Lincoln to PCGS and it crossed at the exact same grade.. now you tell me if i had left it in the SEGS slab, how much less i could have sold it for than in its new PCGS slab?.. you tell me why eBay won't even let you LIST a coin in a SEGS slab.. no, i haven't sold it.. and don't plan to.. my late Dad was born in 1914 so anything from that year has sentimental meaning to me.. but by merely changing the plastic it's in, it changed from a $100.00 coin to a $350.00 coin..
Edited to add: another point worth mentioning is that you don't have to pay to join NGC's "club" if you're an ANA member.. you're automatically an NGC club member and can self-submit to them.. PCGS has no such arrangement with the ANA, or anyone else that i know of (correct me if i'm wrong).. so all 30,000 or whatever it is ANA members are automatically potential NGC submitters without paying a yearly club membership to be one.. with ANACS and ICG.. there is no "club" at all.. nothing to join.. just get the forms and submit.. so.. those yearly club membership fees ($50.00, $100.00, or $200.00).. are yet another source of income..
disclaimer.. i have no financial affiliation of any kind with any of the companies mentioned other than as a customer..
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
...these graders are human beings with bad days, good days, headaches, and the occasional discomfort of irregularity (as shown on teevee) just like anyone else.. they're not super-human perfect cyborgs who never make mistakes.. and they DO make mistakes..
So why would PCGS give out 70s based on allocation instead of merit? There is no monetary benefit to them to withhold 70s; they get the same revenue if the coin goes 68, 69 or 70. I would think it would be quite the opposite in that the more 70s they give, the less valuable the coins are, and the less liability they have if the coin spots. If that $5900 [if that was a legitimate sale] 2008-w rev 07 ms70 FS spots how much do you think the owner will get as compensation? I suppose their propensity to restrict 70s mite cost them some submissions. Better to ask why NGC, ICG and others give out so many instead of why PCGS gives out so few, even tho it is a coin and production process which shud be amenable to producing many scads of top grade coins. >>
Question: Can we request our graders not have irregularity when grading our coins?
About the 70's and PCGS's potential liability with spotting. Imagine they had thousands of MS70's out there waiting to spot. Yes they would be worth less than they currently are but imaging the potential liability if they had 10,000 out there worth $1500+ each. Say a 69 is worth $450. What if half of them spotted and were sent back to PCGS. That is $5.25 million in possible liability. Now say they only grade 400 in 70. Say they are worth $3500 (I think the $5900 was a fluke and FS). They are on the hook for 1.2 million. Either way that is a lot of grading fees but the former is a much greater potential liability. They are a business and they are there to make money but this dynamic may be causing the entombment of ordinarily 70 coins in 69 plastic. With that in mind it might be better to submit suspected 70 coins in the established ratio with suspected 69 coins instead of sending all the best at the same time (assuming you have enough to do that).
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i> So why would PCGS give out 70s based on allocation instead of merit? There is no monetary benefit to them to withhold 70s; they get the same revenue if the coin goes 68, 69 or 70. >>
the reason should be horribly obvious.. if they hand out fewer 70s, those coins are worth more than anyone else's 70.. they sell for more, often FAR more, often (with many Moderns), ten times more.. thus this perception that they are "tighter" graders gets them more submissions, and more income (and there is your monetary benefit).. as people submit more coins to get those elusive 70s.. so they dribble them out and people play the happy hour music if they get a PCGS-70 anything..
there is ONE known Lincoln Memorial cent in a PCGS MS70 slab.. TeleTrade sold it two years ago.. for an obscene amount of money.. do you honestly think that the US Mint has only made ONE Lincoln cent since 1959 that could grade PCGS MS70? out of the billions and billions Minted?.. it's a trophy coin.. crack it out of the slab and you have a cent.. only that chunk of plastic and some pixels on its label made someone pay as much for it as a new car.. well.. a cheap new car..
i submit coins i plan to sell later to PCGS simply because they're worth more in that plastic than in the same grade in anyone else's plastic.. do i think they are absolutely positively more accurate graders than "the other side of the street"?.. no, i don't.. i think the other guys are every bit as competant.. but it's a simple fact of life that with Moderns, one company gives out far fewer 70s than the other, so they sell for far more.. with many other coins, all things being equal, it makes no difference whose slab it's in..
you know, because i told you, that i crossed over a SEGS VG 1914-D Lincoln to PCGS and it crossed at the exact same grade.. now you tell me if i had left it in the SEGS slab, how much less i could have sold it for than in its new PCGS slab?.. you tell me why eBay won't even let you LIST a coin in a SEGS slab.. no, i haven't sold it.. and don't plan to.. my late Dad was born in 1914 so anything from that year has sentimental meaning to me.. but by merely changing the plastic it's in, it changed from a $100.00 coin to a $350.00 coin..
Edited to add: another point worth mentioning is that you don't have to pay to join NGC's "club" if you're an ANA member.. you're automatically an NGC club member and can self-submit to them.. PCGS has no such arrangement with the ANA, or anyone else that i know of (correct me if i'm wrong).. so all 30,000 or whatever it is ANA members are automatically potential NGC submitters without paying a yearly club membership to be one.. with ANACS and ICG.. there is no "club" at all.. nothing to join.. just get the forms and submit.. so.. those yearly club membership fees ($50.00, $100.00, or $200.00).. are yet another source of income..
disclaimer.. i have no financial affiliation of any kind with any of the companies mentioned other than as a customer.. >>
I'd like to see some evidence to support these opinions. And what do pennies have to do with ASEs? The manufacturing process for cents is not conducive to making perfect coins and the few that do make it have to survive a lot of bumps and bruises after being struck. Plus they have to end up in the hands of someone who will recognize them for what they are. OTOH ASEs are usually struck pretty well.
Can we get back to the subject of the thread without continuing this whose the better grading company?
I'm waiting on a mint sealed box of FS SAE's to get graded. Ship date 4/18. Lots of rattling around though. If any are 08/07's I'll sell the three raw one's I'm sitting on before this bubble collapses!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I am going to take a half day from work tomorrow and drive up to Baltimore. I have some First Spouse coins that I am going to submit for FS and I have two ASE's in a mint sealed box that I will open in front of a rep.
there are 14,925 total slabbed coins (PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG).
Assuming the ebay ratio of slabbed to raw is representative of all 08/07s available, then there are between 24K-25K available.
I have been running this calc for the past few weeks. The surprising thing is that as the slabbed percentage has steadily increased from 30% up to 62% the result has varied by less than 1000. I expected this number to fluctuate wildly over time but it has held very constant between 24&25K.
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
That is the one I was referring to. Considering it was generated in two thousand FOUR!, I would say that is "the longest living thread on the forums" ...
<< <i>I am going to take a half day from work tomorrow and drive up to Baltimore. I have some First Spouse coins that I am going to submit for FS and I have two ASE's in a mint sealed box that I will open in front of a rep.
I'll let y'all know how that goes. >>
Jessewvu, have you verified with PCGS Customer Service that you can actually do this? I would verify and double verify just to make sure or you could end up without the FS designation.
And get names of those that say you can do it.
There are some limitations on what can and cannot be submitted at a show.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I am surprised. I have seen only a few PCGS regular holders on Ebay. How did so many FS get through the narrow time window? Looking at the populations the regular holders should command a premium over the FS. We know the coins were all made at the same time. This hobby is getting really wierd. I gotta get some flag stickers.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>I am surprised. I have seen only a few PCGS regular holders on Ebay. How did so many FS get through the narrow time window? Looking at the populations the regular holders should command a premium over the FS. We know the coins were all made at the same time. This hobby is getting really wierd. I gotta get some flag stickers. >>
Too bad it doesn't work that way!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Dont have anything to say really - sold almost all of my raw 2008obv/2007rev on ebay though - average sell price $500. Too early? Too late for selling.
Hello All, I have been pondering what to do with my 2008obv/2007rev Eagles. I did get lucky and received 14 out 15 of the 08/07 variety. I am considering having them slabbed and need some advice/opinions. PCGS or NGC or keep them raw??? The PCGS coins are valued higher than NGC. Will this continue or is part of the difference due to PCGS's late entry into this variety. If there is a probability that the PCGS grades will be lower and have fewer MS 70's than the NGC which will be the best long term strategy?
<< <i>Hello All, I have been pondering what to do with my 2008obv/2007rev Eagles. I did get lucky and received 14 out 15 of the 08/07 variety. I am considering having them slabbed and need some advice/opinions. PCGS or NGC or keep them raw??? The PCGS coins are valued higher than NGC. Will this continue or is part of the difference due to PCGS's late entry into this variety. If there is a probability that the PCGS grades will be lower and have fewer MS 70's than the NGC which will be the best long term strategy?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
KP >>
if you have 14 from the mint @ $25+ each....i'd probably send them to PCGS ....ALL of them don't cherrypick them..you are so far ahead in the profit you might as well shoot the moon...the risk vs reward is very small in your situation. you MAY want to dip these in acetone or diluted EZEST before submitting. if you DON'T do this you may be at a much higher risk of future spotting...IF you don't know HOW to do this ask!!!
<< <i>Hello All, I have been pondering what to do with my 2008obv/2007rev Eagles. I did get lucky and received 14 out 15 of the 08/07 variety. I am considering having them slabbed and need some advice/opinions. PCGS or NGC or keep them raw??? The PCGS coins are valued higher than NGC. Will this continue or is part of the difference due to PCGS's late entry into this variety. If there is a probability that the PCGS grades will be lower and have fewer MS 70's than the NGC which will be the best long term strategy?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
KP >>
my thoughts.. take them for whatever you think they're worth..
- have PCGS slab them but don't send them all in at once.. if you scroll back and look at lists of results from people who submitted 10, 20 or more at a time, they got very few 70s.. even though they carefully examined the coins and cherrypicked the ones they thought were "perfect".. i can't remember anyone submitting any quantity to PCGS and getting back ALL 70s.. there's something funny / not funny going on with that..
- PCGS didn't recognize this error (which some prefer to call a variety) a few weeks later than NGC did, thus there are fewer in PCGS slabs.. PCGS also charged a $20.00 Variety attribution fee on these to start with, although they no longer do..
- you can't get FS labels any more so forget about that.. (if it matters)..
- generally speaking.. NGC 69s sell for a premium over raws.. PCGS 69s sell for a premium (not a whole lot) over NGC 69s.. PCGS 70s sell for an ENORMOUS premium over NGC 70s..
- "The PCGS coins are valued higher than NGC. Will this continue or is part of the difference due to PCGS's late entry into this variety." the first question, "will this continue".. NO ONE can answer.. except Father Time.. the second part of your question most likely factors into the first sentence of your question..
- "If there is a probability that the PCGS grades will be lower and have fewer MS 70's than the NGC which will be the best long term strategy?" roll the dice.. flip a coin.. if i was in your situation, holding 14 raws.. i would "dribble" them into PCGS over multiple submissions and not send them all in at once.. anecdotal evidence posted here indicates you'll have a better chance of getting more 70s if you do multiple small submissions than if you send them all in at once..
however, of course, you're going to study them first.. and if you see any that have any pinpoint hits (these seem to show up more on the Reverse than on the Obverse for some reason, at least that's been my observation).. then put them in the "this ain't gonna slab 70" pile..
then you have to factor in the cost of slabbing.. whether you walk in and do it at a show so you don't have to pay Postage and Insurance both ways, or you mail them in and DO have to pay Postage and Insurance both ways.. plus then there's the fees.. and more fees..
then figure out what they're selling for raw, and subtract out how much it would cost to have a raw slabbed, it comes back 69, subtract out all the money it cost you to have that raw turn into a slabbed 69 and decide if it's worth doing it or not..
or.. just sit on them for a while and watch the price trends which still don't seem to be heading anywhere but up.. the ultimate agony when flipping is selling too soon.. but you never know where the peak is until it's passed.. that's the tricky part.. these could be $1000.00 to $3000.00 coins a year or two or three from now, or never.. no one knows..
we still don't know how many of the alleged 47,000 the Mint claims were made actually got shipped.. many people believe the actual shipped number is lower by 10,000, maybe 20,000, maybe more.. maybe some day we'll know.. maybe we'll never know..
if you want some fast money, sell as many as you feel comfortable selling raw.. but i would only list one at a time so you're not competing with yourself.. and don't do Dutch auctions.. if you get $500+ for each (which is likely) and a year from now raws are over $1000.00, then you can kick yourself black and blue..
this coin has very little history behind it.. barely two months.. you got very lucky.. what you have sitting there in those little blue boxes is worth more than twenty times what you paid for it in under two months..
anyway.. at the risk of rambling on.. those are my thoughts and suggestions..
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>Hello All, I have been pondering what to do with my 2008obv/2007rev Eagles. I did get lucky and received 14 out 15 of the 08/07 variety. I am considering having them slabbed and need some advice/opinions. PCGS or NGC or keep them raw??? The PCGS coins are valued higher than NGC. Will this continue or is part of the difference due to PCGS's late entry into this variety. If there is a probability that the PCGS grades will be lower and have fewer MS 70's than the NGC which will be the best long term strategy?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
KP >>
my thoughts.. take them for whatever you think they're worth..
- have PCGS slab them but don't send them all in at once.. if you scroll back and look at lists of results from people who submitted 10, 20 or more at a time, they got very few 70s.. even though they carefully examined the coins and cherrypicked the ones they thought were "perfect".. i can't remember anyone submitting any quantity to PCGS and getting back ALL 70s.. there's something funny / not funny going on with that..
- PCGS didn't recognize this error (which some prefer to call a variety) a few weeks later than NGC did, thus there are fewer in PCGS slabs.. PCGS also charged a $20.00 Variety attribution fee on these to start with, although they no longer do..
- you can't get FS labels any more so forget about that.. (if it matters)..
- generally speaking.. NGC 69s sell for a premium over raws.. PCGS 69s sell for a premium (not a whole lot) over NGC 69s.. PCGS 70s sell for an ENORMOUS premium over NGC 70s..
- "The PCGS coins are valued higher than NGC. Will this continue or is part of the difference due to PCGS's late entry into this variety." the first question, "will this continue".. NO ONE can answer.. except Father Time.. the second part of your question most likely factors into the first sentence of your question..
- "If there is a probability that the PCGS grades will be lower and have fewer MS 70's than the NGC which will be the best long term strategy?" roll the dice.. flip a coin.. if i was in your situation, holding 14 raws.. i would "dribble" them into PCGS over multiple submissions and not send them all in at once.. anecdotal evidence posted here indicates you'll have a better chance of getting more 70s if you do multiple small submissions than if you send them all in at once..
however, of course, you're going to study them first.. and if you see any that have any pinpoint hits (these seem to show up more on the Reverse than on the Obverse for some reason, at least that's been my observation).. then put them in the "this ain't gonna slab 70" pile..
then you have to factor in the cost of slabbing.. whether you walk in and do it at a show so you don't have to pay Postage and Insurance both ways, or you mail them in and DO have to pay Postage and Insurance both ways.. plus then there's the fees.. and more fees..
then figure out what they're selling for raw, and subtract out how much it would cost to have a raw slabbed, it comes back 69, subtract out all the money it cost you to have that raw turn into a slabbed 69 and decide if it's worth doing it or not..
or.. just sit on them for a while and watch the price trends which still don't seem to be heading anywhere but up.. the ultimate agony when flipping is selling too soon.. but you never know where the peak is until it's passed.. that's the tricky part.. these could be $1000.00 to $3000.00 coins a year or two or three from now, or never.. no one knows..
we still don't know how many of the alleged 47,000 the Mint claims were made actually got shipped.. many people believe the actual shipped number is lower by 10,000, maybe 20,000, maybe more.. maybe some day we'll know.. maybe we'll never know..
if you want some fast money, sell as many as you feel comfortable selling raw.. but i would only list one at a time so you're not competing with yourself.. and don't do Dutch auctions.. if you get $500+ for each (which is likely) and a year from now raws are over $1000.00, then you can kick yourself black and blue..
this coin has very little history behind it.. barely two months.. you got very lucky.. what you have sitting there in those little blue boxes is worth more than twenty times what you paid for it in under two months..
anyway.. at the risk of rambling on.. those are my thoughts and suggestions.. >>
I guess you missed the one post where someone had 25 or 30 70s from one submission.
<< <i> I guess you missed the one post where someone had 25 or 30 70s from one submission. >>
i guess i did.. although i've read every post in this novel.. show it to me.. and would it be too much of an imposition to ask you to trim your quotes when quoting back a long posting?..
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.. I don't do these things to other people.. I require the same of them.." - John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
Wow, I got a few of these and sent 5 of my absolute best (almost sure 70's in my opinion) to PCGS. They sent 4 back 69's and one 70. Ok, not too bad except these were absolutely the best I had. After that I sent in 9 of my next best ones in my opinion to PCGS but put on my form to not holder grades less than 70's. That was an experiment gone wrong because they all graded minimum grade (i.e. nothing) and sent them back to me unholdered. Next, I sent 5 to NGC. These were pretty good and had a shot at 70's but not as good in my opinion as the PCGS coins. I got 4 70's out of 5. Wow. So out of 14 coins to PCGS I got one 70 and out of 5 coins to NCG-4 70's. That says something about PCGS or NGC or both. I have my theories.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>Wow, I got a few of these and sent 5 of my absolute best (almost sure 70's in my opinion) to PCGS. They sent 4 back 69's and one 70. Ok, not too bad except these were absolutely the best I had. After that I sent in 9 of my next best ones in my opinion to PCGS but put on my form to not holder grades less than 70's. That was an experiment gone wrong because they all graded minimum grade (i.e. nothing) and sent them back to me unholdered. Next, I sent 5 to NGC. These were pretty good and had a shot at 70's but not as good in my opinion as the PCGS coins. I got 4 70's out of 5. Wow. So out of 14 coins to PCGS I got one 70 and out of 5 coins to NCG-4 70's. That says something about PCGS or NGC or both. I have my theories. >>
my theory is NGC hands out 70`s like SGS does
it seems there are more NGC 70`s on ebay than there are 69`s and the 69`s sell for about the same $$$ that raw sells for.
if NGC customers did not get a lot of 70`s they would not submit so NGC sold their soul
<< <i> I guess you missed the one post where someone had 25 or 30 70s from one submission. >>
i guess i did.. although i've read every post in this novel.. show it to me.. and would it be too much of an imposition to ask you to trim your quotes when quoting back a long posting?..
>>
It may not have been in this thread, but there was a post recently detailing a fairly long list of 70s from a single submission. Perhaps someone else remembers it. Also IIRC when PCGS resumed giving out 70s last year with the 2007-W and others they were giving them out like NGC and ICG [by the bucketful].
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Do any of you ever get the feeling that PCGS rations out the 70's in certain ratios on moderns based on how many you send in >>
That was my rant many moons ago....It was said that they only give out "a small percentage of 70's" . This creates an artificial rarity and boinks the many "69's" that would probably qualify as 70's. If I cherrypick 20 coins out of 100 and can find no imperfections on any of them I should expect at least 15 70's. I would bet I would only get 2 at most..just because that's the way it is.
I recently did this with 08/08 ASE's across the street...21 cherrypicked....13 70's returned.....sent 16 08/07's.....12 70's returned. Looser standards??? or true grading not dependant on "just because"????....Flame me if you will but this is only my opinion >>
I won't flame you but I think what you did was silly. Wasting money to play test subject with your money.
What subject were we on ?
I'm trying to egg this thread on to 4000.
<< <i>I won't flame you but I think what you did was silly. Wasting money to play test subject with your money >>
Soooooooooo 12/16 08/07 70's is "wasting money"????
<< <i> What subject were we on ?
I'm trying to egg this thread on to 4000. >>
It'll get there soon enough. I wish that second apostrophe wasn't in the title, though. I can't stop looking at it, and why I grade this thread an A as opposed to an A+.
<< <i>
<< <i>"Rev of '07" works in the Keyword Search >>
thanks.. i figured they were abbreviating the keywords in some way, but that's one combination i didn't try.. >>
seen 3 NGC 70s and 2 PCGS 69s sold so far on teletrade
<< <i> I'm trying to egg this thread on to 4000. >>
It doesn't look like it needs the help.
(+1)
Have a good one!!!~David
a couple months later i took my 2007 Jamestown Gold Unc to the Long Beach show and submitted it to PCGS.. i'd been staring at it for months and couldn't find one damn thing wrong with it.. as far as i was concerned, it was perfect. after the usual agonizing wait, i got the grade: MS70.. sold it on eBay for full price guide ($700.00)..
meanwhile, i have a few "across the street" Modern Silver Dollar Commemoratives graded 70.. and they are, indeed, flawless.. not a tick or hit or frost break or nuttin.. i know full-well who owns these boreds.. but yes, i DO believe they portion out the number of 70s they give out based on some algorithm only they know, to artifically keep themselves the "leader" in prices realized, especially for Modern anythings.. when it comes to "classic" stuff.. i think the two are pretty much equal.. i'm sure if i tossed my "across the street" MS70 Ben Franklin Founding Father up on eBay i might get $75.00 for it.. if it was in a "this side of the street" MS70 slab, i'd get multiples of that.. but this side of the street's submission form FORBIDS you from submitting anyone else's MS70 as a cross-over and specifying MS70 as the minimum grade.. got a submission form handy?.. flip it over and read the fine print.. then ponder what that means.. and then explain how that SF Old Mint Gold with a frost break on it so obvious you could see it from a foot away got into a PR70DCAM slab.. and no one pays me $100k a year (or more) to grade coins for a living..
these graders are human beings with bad days, good days, headaches, and the occasional discomfort of irregularity (as shown on teevee) just like anyone else.. they're not super-human perfect cyborgs who never make mistakes.. and they DO make mistakes.. a long time ago, the conventional wisdom was to never buy a car made on a Monday or a Friday.. on Mondays, no one wants to be at work, and on Fridays, everyone wants to go home.. so cars built on Tusdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays had the fewest defects.. you used to be able to lift up the rubber covering in the trunk of a car and see a label, slap-dash glued in there with the actual build date.. i don't think you can do that any more.. the best you can get now is the month and year the car was built off the sticker on the door jam.. so perhaps the same applies to coin graders as it does to the folks on car assembly lines.. sloppy work on Mondays and Fridays.. but go prove it..
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>I still need an answer as to weather or not I need to crack my PCGS 69's (1st strike reverse of 07)out of their cases before sending them to NGC to be regraded for possible 70's. I really don't want to crack them out if NGC is not going to grade them higher even though I feel they should be graded higher. >>
From the pictures you have provided here, I say its a toss up.
<< <i>I still need an answer as to weather (sic) or not I need to crack my PCGS 69's (1st strike reverse of 07)out of their cases before sending them to NGC to be regraded for possible 70's. I really don't want to crack them out if NGC is not going to grade them higher even though I feel they should be graded higher. >>
i really want to put a stack of $100 chips on #17 and watch the ball drop into #17..
in your case, assuming you want to do this for possible future selling.. the question is.. what's selling for the higher price?.. a PCGS 69 FS, or an NGC 70 (blue or brown label).. i don't have either the time nor the desire to go grab stats off eBay but they are regularly posted here.. but this 08/07 thing is so wildly dynamic, that the figure$ change from one week to the next, one day to the next.. so already, last weeks number$ are virtually meaningless..
tough decision ya got there.. me, i'd probably just leave them as they are, depending on whether i bought them raw or already slabbed.. if you crack them out and submit them to NGC, you have NO guarantee of any kind that you'll get one or any 70s.. you'll pay more fees, plus postage both ways.. and you won't get them back for weeks.. there's simply no way to know what NGC will give them.. no matter how perfect they look.. unfortunately, as you know, it's up to them, not you, to decide what grade to put on the label.. and you'll get brown labels, not blue "Early Release" labels, if you want to factor that in too..
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>late last year i bought / won a PCGS PR70DCAM SF Old Mint $5.00 Gold.. when it arrived and i tore into the package and slid it out to examine it.. the side with the building on it had a frost break on one of the building's windows that shined out at me like a searchlight.. no tilting needed to see it.. back it went.. full refund.. there's no way in the world any competant, skilled, and HIGHLY PAID grader should have missed that..
a couple months later i took my 2007 Jamestown Gold Unc to the Long Beach show and submitted it to PCGS.. i'd been staring at it for months and couldn't find one damn thing wrong with it.. as far as i was concerned, it was perfect. after the usual agonizing wait, i got the grade: MS70.. sold it on eBay for full price guide ($700.00)..
meanwhile, i have a few "across the street" Modern Silver Dollar Commemoratives graded 70.. and they are, indeed, flawless.. not a tick or hit or frost break or nuttin.. i know full-well who owns these boreds.. but yes, i DO believe they portion out the number of 70s they give out based on some algorithm only they know, to artifically keep themselves the "leader" in prices realized, especially for Modern anythings.. when it comes to "classic" stuff.. i think the two are pretty much equal.. i'm sure if i tossed my "across the street" MS70 Ben Franklin Founding Father up on eBay i might get $75.00 for it.. if it was in a "this side of the street" MS70 slab, i'd get multiples of that.. but this side of the street's submission form FORBIDS you from submitting anyone else's MS70 as a cross-over and specifying MS70 as the minimum grade.. got a submission form handy?.. flip it over and read the fine print.. then ponder what that means.. and then explain how that SF Old Mint Gold with a frost break on it so obvious you could see it from a foot away got into a PR70DCAM slab.. and no one pays me $100k a year (or more) to grade coins for a living..
these graders are human beings with bad days, good days, headaches, and the occasional discomfort of irregularity (as shown on teevee) just like anyone else.. they're not super-human perfect cyborgs who never make mistakes.. and they DO make mistakes.. a long time ago, the conventional wisdom was to never buy a car made on a Monday or a Friday.. on Mondays, no one wants to be at work, and on Fridays, everyone wants to go home.. so cars built on Tusdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays had the fewest defects.. you used to be able to lift up the rubber covering in the trunk of a car and see a label, slap-dash glued in there with the actual build date.. i don't think you can do that any more.. the best you can get now is the month and year the car was built off the sticker on the door jam.. so perhaps the same applies to coin graders as it does to the folks on car assembly lines.. sloppy work on Mondays and Fridays.. but go prove it.. >>
So why would PCGS give out 70s based on allocation instead of merit? There is no monetary benefit to them to withhold 70s; they get the same revenue if the coin goes 68, 69 or 70. I would think it would be quite the opposite in that the more 70s they give, the less valuable the coins are, and the less liability they have if the coin spots. If that $5900 [if that was a legitimate sale] 2008-w rev 07 ms70 FS spots how much do you think the owner will get as compensation? I suppose their propensity to restrict 70s mite cost them some submissions. Better to ask why NGC, ICG and others give out so many instead of why PCGS gives out so few, even tho it is a coin and production process which shud be amenable to producing many scads of top grade coins.
<< <i>
So why would PCGS give out 70s based on allocation instead of merit? There is no monetary benefit to them to withhold 70s; they get the same revenue if the coin goes 68, 69 or 70. >>
the reason should be horribly obvious.. if they hand out fewer 70s, those coins are worth more than anyone else's 70.. they sell for more, often FAR more, often (with many Moderns), ten times more.. thus this perception that they are "tighter" graders gets them more submissions, and more income (and there is your monetary benefit).. as people submit more coins to get those elusive 70s.. so they dribble them out and people play the happy hour music if they get a PCGS-70 anything..
there is ONE known Lincoln Memorial cent in a PCGS MS70 slab.. TeleTrade sold it two years ago.. for an obscene amount of money.. do you honestly think that the US Mint has only made ONE Lincoln cent since 1959 that could grade PCGS MS70? out of the billions and billions Minted?.. it's a trophy coin.. crack it out of the slab and you have a cent.. only that chunk of plastic and some pixels on its label made someone pay as much for it as a new car.. well.. a cheap new car..
and here it is..
i submit coins i plan to sell later to PCGS simply because they're worth more in that plastic than in the same grade in anyone else's plastic.. do i think they are absolutely positively more accurate graders than "the other side of the street"?.. no, i don't.. i think the other guys are every bit as competant.. but it's a simple fact of life that with Moderns, one company gives out far fewer 70s than the other, so they sell for far more.. with many other coins, all things being equal, it makes no difference whose slab it's in..
you know, because i told you, that i crossed over a SEGS VG 1914-D Lincoln to PCGS and it crossed at the exact same grade.. now you tell me if i had left it in the SEGS slab, how much less i could have sold it for than in its new PCGS slab?.. you tell me why eBay won't even let you LIST a coin in a SEGS slab.. no, i haven't sold it.. and don't plan to.. my late Dad was born in 1914 so anything from that year has sentimental meaning to me.. but by merely changing the plastic it's in, it changed from a $100.00 coin to a $350.00 coin..
Edited to add: another point worth mentioning is that you don't have to pay to join NGC's "club" if you're an ANA member.. you're automatically an NGC club member and can self-submit to them.. PCGS has no such arrangement with the ANA, or anyone else that i know of (correct me if i'm wrong).. so all 30,000 or whatever it is ANA members are automatically potential NGC submitters without paying a yearly club membership to be one.. with ANACS and ICG.. there is no "club" at all.. nothing to join.. just get the forms and submit.. so.. those yearly club membership fees ($50.00, $100.00, or $200.00).. are yet another source of income..
disclaimer.. i have no financial affiliation of any kind with any of the companies mentioned other than as a customer..
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
So why would PCGS give out 70s based on allocation instead of merit? There is no monetary benefit to them to withhold 70s; they get the same revenue if the coin goes 68, 69 or 70. I would think it would be quite the opposite in that the more 70s they give, the less valuable the coins are, and the less liability they have if the coin spots. If that $5900 [if that was a legitimate sale] 2008-w rev 07 ms70 FS spots how much do you think the owner will get as compensation? I suppose their propensity to restrict 70s mite cost them some submissions. Better to ask why NGC, ICG and others give out so many instead of why PCGS gives out so few, even tho it is a coin and production process which shud be amenable to producing many scads of top grade coins. >>
Question: Can we request our graders not have irregularity when grading our coins?
About the 70's and PCGS's potential liability with spotting. Imagine they had thousands of MS70's out there waiting to spot. Yes they would be worth less than they currently are but imaging the potential liability if they had 10,000 out there worth $1500+ each. Say a 69 is worth $450. What if half of them spotted and were sent back to PCGS. That is $5.25 million in possible liability. Now say they only grade 400 in 70. Say they are worth $3500 (I think the $5900 was a fluke and FS). They are on the hook for 1.2 million. Either way that is a lot of grading fees but the former is a much greater potential liability. They are a business and they are there to make money but this dynamic may be causing the entombment of ordinarily 70 coins in 69 plastic. With that in mind it might be better to submit suspected 70 coins in the established ratio with suspected 69 coins instead of sending all the best at the same time (assuming you have enough to do that).
<< <i>What about the coin ? >>
Yeah! The coin. You guys can start your own thread about all this other crap! Better yet...revisit an old thread!
<< <i>
<< <i>
So why would PCGS give out 70s based on allocation instead of merit? There is no monetary benefit to them to withhold 70s; they get the same revenue if the coin goes 68, 69 or 70. >>
the reason should be horribly obvious.. if they hand out fewer 70s, those coins are worth more than anyone else's 70.. they sell for more, often FAR more, often (with many Moderns), ten times more.. thus this perception that they are "tighter" graders gets them more submissions, and more income (and there is your monetary benefit).. as people submit more coins to get those elusive 70s.. so they dribble them out and people play the happy hour music if they get a PCGS-70 anything..
there is ONE known Lincoln Memorial cent in a PCGS MS70 slab.. TeleTrade sold it two years ago.. for an obscene amount of money.. do you honestly think that the US Mint has only made ONE Lincoln cent since 1959 that could grade PCGS MS70? out of the billions and billions Minted?.. it's a trophy coin.. crack it out of the slab and you have a cent.. only that chunk of plastic and some pixels on its label made someone pay as much for it as a new car.. well.. a cheap new car..
and here it is..
i submit coins i plan to sell later to PCGS simply because they're worth more in that plastic than in the same grade in anyone else's plastic.. do i think they are absolutely positively more accurate graders than "the other side of the street"?.. no, i don't.. i think the other guys are every bit as competant.. but it's a simple fact of life that with Moderns, one company gives out far fewer 70s than the other, so they sell for far more.. with many other coins, all things being equal, it makes no difference whose slab it's in..
you know, because i told you, that i crossed over a SEGS VG 1914-D Lincoln to PCGS and it crossed at the exact same grade.. now you tell me if i had left it in the SEGS slab, how much less i could have sold it for than in its new PCGS slab?.. you tell me why eBay won't even let you LIST a coin in a SEGS slab.. no, i haven't sold it.. and don't plan to.. my late Dad was born in 1914 so anything from that year has sentimental meaning to me.. but by merely changing the plastic it's in, it changed from a $100.00 coin to a $350.00 coin..
Edited to add: another point worth mentioning is that you don't have to pay to join NGC's "club" if you're an ANA member.. you're automatically an NGC club member and can self-submit to them.. PCGS has no such arrangement with the ANA, or anyone else that i know of (correct me if i'm wrong).. so all 30,000 or whatever it is ANA members are automatically potential NGC submitters without paying a yearly club membership to be one.. with ANACS and ICG.. there is no "club" at all.. nothing to join.. just get the forms and submit.. so.. those yearly club membership fees ($50.00, $100.00, or $200.00).. are yet another source of income..
disclaimer.. i have no financial affiliation of any kind with any of the companies mentioned other than as a customer.. >>
I'd like to see some evidence to support these opinions. And what do pennies have to do with ASEs? The manufacturing process for cents is not conducive to making perfect coins and the few that do make it have to survive a lot of bumps and bruises after being struck. Plus they have to end up in the hands of someone who will recognize them for what they are. OTOH ASEs are usually struck pretty well.
I'm waiting on a mint sealed box of FS SAE's to get graded. Ship date 4/18. Lots of rattling around though. If any are 08/07's I'll sell the three raw one's I'm sitting on before this bubble collapses!
The name is LEE!
I'll let y'all know how that goes.
<< <i> I have two ASE's in a mint sealed box that I will open in front of a rep. >>
Good Luck Jessewvu. For all the stats/graphs you compiled for this thread you deserve to get 2 2008 w/ 07 Reverse.
Please give as much as possible.
Baltimore show this weekend. A link might help as well.
Thanks in advance.
<< <i>175 auctions
-69 61175 34.9%
-70 47175 26.8
Other 67175 38.3 >>
there are 14,925 total slabbed coins (PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG).
Assuming the ebay ratio of slabbed to raw is representative of all 08/07s available, then there are between 24K-25K available.
I have been running this calc for the past few weeks. The surprising thing is that as the slabbed percentage has steadily increased from 30% up to 62% the result has varied by less than 1000. I expected this number to fluctuate wildly over time but it has held very constant between 24&25K.
Baltimore Show
Regards, John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>is this the longest living thread on the forums? >>
No that would probably be the gold and silver economic thread....something like that. Where the h3ll have you been?
<< <i>
<< <i>is this the longest living thread on the forums? >>
No that would probably be the gold and silver economic thread....something like that. Where the h3ll have you been?
Will this one catch IT though?
Regards, John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>is this the longest living thread on the forums? >>
No that would probably be the gold and silver economic thread....something like that. Where the h3ll have you been?
Will this one catch IT though?
Regards, John >>
That is the one I was referring to. Considering it was generated in two thousand FOUR!, I would say that is "the longest living thread on the forums" ...
<< <i>is this the longest living thread on the forums? >>
No, but I did ask the forum about a two weeks ago when this one will surpass Goldsaint's Economic Predictions.
It's around half its posts in less than two months.
ren
-69 64/196 32.7%
-70 53/196 27.0
Other 79/196 40.3
<< <i>I am going to take a half day from work tomorrow and drive up to Baltimore. I have some First Spouse coins that I am going to submit for FS and I have two ASE's in a mint sealed box that I will open in front of a rep.
I'll let y'all know how that goes. >>
Jessewvu, have you verified with PCGS Customer Service that you can actually do this? I would verify and double verify just to make sure or you could end up without the FS designation.
And get names of those that say you can do it.
There are some limitations on what can and cannot be submitted at a show.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I am surprised. I have seen only a few PCGS regular holders on Ebay. How did so many FS get through the narrow time window? Looking at the populations the regular holders should command a premium over the FS. We know the coins were all made at the same time. This hobby is getting really wierd. I gotta get some flag stickers. >>
Too bad it doesn't work that way!
The name is LEE!
Jeff
I have been pondering what to do with my 2008obv/2007rev Eagles.
I did get lucky and received 14 out 15 of the 08/07 variety.
I am considering having them slabbed and need some advice/opinions.
PCGS or NGC or keep them raw???
The PCGS coins are valued higher than NGC. Will this continue or
is part of the difference due to PCGS's late entry into this variety.
If there is a probability that the PCGS grades will be lower and have fewer MS 70's
than the NGC which will be the best long term strategy?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
KP
<< <i>Hello All,
I have been pondering what to do with my 2008obv/2007rev Eagles.
I did get lucky and received 14 out 15 of the 08/07 variety.
I am considering having them slabbed and need some advice/opinions.
PCGS or NGC or keep them raw???
The PCGS coins are valued higher than NGC. Will this continue or
is part of the difference due to PCGS's late entry into this variety.
If there is a probability that the PCGS grades will be lower and have fewer MS 70's
than the NGC which will be the best long term strategy?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
KP >>
if you have 14 from the mint @ $25+ each....i'd probably send them to PCGS ....ALL of them don't cherrypick them..you are so far ahead in the profit you might as well shoot the moon...the risk vs reward is very small in your situation. you MAY want to dip these in acetone or diluted EZEST before submitting. if you DON'T do this you may be at a much higher risk of future spotting...IF you don't know HOW to do this ask!!!
btw
<< <i>Hello All,
I have been pondering what to do with my 2008obv/2007rev Eagles.
I did get lucky and received 14 out 15 of the 08/07 variety.
I am considering having them slabbed and need some advice/opinions.
PCGS or NGC or keep them raw???
The PCGS coins are valued higher than NGC. Will this continue or
is part of the difference due to PCGS's late entry into this variety.
If there is a probability that the PCGS grades will be lower and have fewer MS 70's
than the NGC which will be the best long term strategy?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
KP >>
my thoughts.. take them for whatever you think they're worth..
- have PCGS slab them but don't send them all in at once.. if you scroll back and look at lists of results from people who submitted 10, 20 or more at a time, they got very few 70s.. even though they carefully examined the coins and cherrypicked the ones they thought were "perfect".. i can't remember anyone submitting any quantity to PCGS and getting back ALL 70s.. there's something funny / not funny going on with that..
- PCGS didn't recognize this error (which some prefer to call a variety) a few weeks later than NGC did, thus there are fewer in PCGS slabs.. PCGS also charged a $20.00 Variety attribution fee on these to start with, although they no longer do..
- you can't get FS labels any more so forget about that.. (if it matters)..
- generally speaking.. NGC 69s sell for a premium over raws.. PCGS 69s sell for a premium (not a whole lot) over NGC 69s.. PCGS 70s sell for an ENORMOUS premium over NGC 70s..
- "The PCGS coins are valued higher than NGC. Will this continue or
is part of the difference due to PCGS's late entry into this variety."
the first question, "will this continue".. NO ONE can answer.. except Father Time.. the second part of your question most likely factors into the first sentence of your question..
- "If there is a probability that the PCGS grades will be lower and have fewer MS 70's
than the NGC which will be the best long term strategy?"
roll the dice.. flip a coin.. if i was in your situation, holding 14 raws.. i would "dribble" them into PCGS over multiple submissions and not send them all in at once.. anecdotal evidence posted here indicates you'll have a better chance of getting more 70s if you do multiple small submissions than if you send them all in at once..
however, of course, you're going to study them first.. and if you see any that have any pinpoint hits (these seem to show up more on the Reverse than on the Obverse for some reason, at least that's been my observation).. then put them in the "this ain't gonna slab 70" pile..
then you have to factor in the cost of slabbing.. whether you walk in and do it at a show so you don't have to pay Postage and Insurance both ways, or you mail them in and DO have to pay Postage and Insurance both ways.. plus then there's the fees.. and more fees..
then figure out what they're selling for raw, and subtract out how much it would cost to have a raw slabbed, it comes back 69, subtract out all the money it cost you to have that raw turn into a slabbed 69 and decide if it's worth doing it or not..
or.. just sit on them for a while and watch the price trends which still don't seem to be heading anywhere but up.. the ultimate agony when flipping is selling too soon.. but you never know where the peak is until it's passed.. that's the tricky part.. these could be $1000.00 to $3000.00 coins a year or two or three from now, or never.. no one knows..
we still don't know how many of the alleged 47,000 the Mint claims were made actually got shipped.. many people believe the actual shipped number is lower by 10,000, maybe 20,000, maybe more.. maybe some day we'll know.. maybe we'll never know..
if you want some fast money, sell as many as you feel comfortable selling raw.. but i would only list one at a time so you're not competing with yourself.. and don't do Dutch auctions.. if you get $500+ for each (which is likely) and a year from now raws are over $1000.00, then you can kick yourself black and blue..
this coin has very little history behind it.. barely two months.. you got very lucky.. what you have sitting there in those little blue boxes is worth more than twenty times what you paid for it in under two months..
anyway.. at the risk of rambling on.. those are my thoughts and suggestions..
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>
<< <i>Hello All,
I have been pondering what to do with my 2008obv/2007rev Eagles.
I did get lucky and received 14 out 15 of the 08/07 variety.
I am considering having them slabbed and need some advice/opinions.
PCGS or NGC or keep them raw???
The PCGS coins are valued higher than NGC. Will this continue or
is part of the difference due to PCGS's late entry into this variety.
If there is a probability that the PCGS grades will be lower and have fewer MS 70's
than the NGC which will be the best long term strategy?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
KP >>
my thoughts.. take them for whatever you think they're worth..
- have PCGS slab them but don't send them all in at once.. if you scroll back and look at lists of results from people who submitted 10, 20 or more at a time, they got very few 70s.. even though they carefully examined the coins and cherrypicked the ones they thought were "perfect".. i can't remember anyone submitting any quantity to PCGS and getting back ALL 70s.. there's something funny / not funny going on with that..
- PCGS didn't recognize this error (which some prefer to call a variety) a few weeks later than NGC did, thus there are fewer in PCGS slabs.. PCGS also charged a $20.00 Variety attribution fee on these to start with, although they no longer do..
- you can't get FS labels any more so forget about that.. (if it matters)..
- generally speaking.. NGC 69s sell for a premium over raws.. PCGS 69s sell for a premium (not a whole lot) over NGC 69s.. PCGS 70s sell for an ENORMOUS premium over NGC 70s..
- "The PCGS coins are valued higher than NGC. Will this continue or
is part of the difference due to PCGS's late entry into this variety."
the first question, "will this continue".. NO ONE can answer.. except Father Time.. the second part of your question most likely factors into the first sentence of your question..
- "If there is a probability that the PCGS grades will be lower and have fewer MS 70's
than the NGC which will be the best long term strategy?"
roll the dice.. flip a coin.. if i was in your situation, holding 14 raws.. i would "dribble" them into PCGS over multiple submissions and not send them all in at once.. anecdotal evidence posted here indicates you'll have a better chance of getting more 70s if you do multiple small submissions than if you send them all in at once..
however, of course, you're going to study them first.. and if you see any that have any pinpoint hits (these seem to show up more on the Reverse than on the Obverse for some reason, at least that's been my observation).. then put them in the "this ain't gonna slab 70" pile..
then you have to factor in the cost of slabbing.. whether you walk in and do it at a show so you don't have to pay Postage and Insurance both ways, or you mail them in and DO have to pay Postage and Insurance both ways.. plus then there's the fees.. and more fees..
then figure out what they're selling for raw, and subtract out how much it would cost to have a raw slabbed, it comes back 69, subtract out all the money it cost you to have that raw turn into a slabbed 69 and decide if it's worth doing it or not..
or.. just sit on them for a while and watch the price trends which still don't seem to be heading anywhere but up.. the ultimate agony when flipping is selling too soon.. but you never know where the peak is until it's passed.. that's the tricky part.. these could be $1000.00 to $3000.00 coins a year or two or three from now, or never.. no one knows..
we still don't know how many of the alleged 47,000 the Mint claims were made actually got shipped.. many people believe the actual shipped number is lower by 10,000, maybe 20,000, maybe more.. maybe some day we'll know.. maybe we'll never know..
if you want some fast money, sell as many as you feel comfortable selling raw.. but i would only list one at a time so you're not competing with yourself.. and don't do Dutch auctions.. if you get $500+ for each (which is likely) and a year from now raws are over $1000.00, then you can kick yourself black and blue..
this coin has very little history behind it.. barely two months.. you got very lucky.. what you have sitting there in those little blue boxes is worth more than twenty times what you paid for it in under two months..
anyway.. at the risk of rambling on.. those are my thoughts and suggestions.. >>
I guess you missed the one post where someone had 25 or 30 70s from one submission.
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I guess you missed the one post where someone had 25 or 30 70s from one submission. >>
i guess i did.. although i've read every post in this novel.. show it to me.. and would it be too much of an imposition to ask you to trim your quotes when quoting back a long posting?..
- John Wayne, "The Shootist" (1976.. his final film)..
<< <i>Wow, I got a few of these and sent 5 of my absolute best (almost sure 70's in my opinion) to PCGS. They sent 4 back 69's and one 70. Ok, not too bad except these were absolutely the best I had. After that I sent in 9 of my next best ones in my opinion to PCGS but put on my form to not holder grades less than 70's. That was an experiment gone wrong because they all graded minimum grade (i.e. nothing) and sent them back to me unholdered. Next, I sent 5 to NGC. These were pretty good and had a shot at 70's but not as good in my opinion as the PCGS coins. I got 4 70's out of 5. Wow. So out of 14 coins to PCGS I got one 70 and out of 5 coins to NCG-4 70's. That says something about PCGS or NGC or both. I have my theories. >>
my theory is NGC hands out 70`s like SGS does
it seems there are more NGC 70`s on ebay than there are 69`s and the 69`s sell for about the same $$$ that raw sells for.
if NGC customers did not get a lot of 70`s they would not submit so NGC sold their soul
<< <i>PCGS coins just simply bring more money but I am not going to renew my membership with all their changes. >>
Good Point(s)
Have a good one!!!~David
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<< <i>
I guess you missed the one post where someone had 25 or 30 70s from one submission. >>
i guess i did.. although i've read every post in this novel.. show it to me.. and would it be too much of an imposition to ask you to trim your quotes when quoting back a long posting?..
It may not have been in this thread, but there was a post recently detailing a fairly long list of 70s from a single submission. Perhaps someone else remembers it. Also IIRC when PCGS resumed giving out 70s last year with the 2007-W and others they were giving them out like NGC and ICG [by the bucketful].
Jeff