2101 but really all I wanted to say was my 1/4 w plat is still a sweet looking coin. Many thanks to those who insisted it was a good deal. Even if platinum drops this is one nice looking coin. The 09 coin is a different story but........................ I took on a part time job just so I can invest in the platinum series. This will be THE series of the future without a doubt.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson
<< <i>I wouldn't touch the purposed 2009 platinum coins with a ten foot pole. >>
Now lets be honest..............they could put a mules rear end on the coin and if Nov. 09 came and there was a hint of rarity everyone would quietly hold their noses and buy hoping for a quick flip.
Personally I think the mint should stop publishing mintages til issue is complete.
the USM can look into the abnormalities of their ordering system and explain how they took 1500+ pieces in orders while in backorder status.
I'm a gambling man, and IMO, based on $10 unc-w mintage and the "behaved" (to borrow a phrase) action of the $50 unc-w's - I would guess-timate that there are no more than 1000-1200 $25 coins available.
Throw away the sales reports, soon the 1500+ backorders will be cancelled. None of them have been delivered, no one with sizeable orders placed after 6pm on 10/21 has rec'd any coins.........if you happen to be on top of that list, you may get some recycled returns, but thats it.
<< <i>Now that $25 unc-w plats have the sign posted
"No Longer Available"
the USM can look into the abnormalities of their ordering system and explain how they took 1500+ pieces in orders while in backorder status.
I'm a gambling man, and IMO, based on $10 unc-w mintage and the "behaved" (to borrow a phrase) action of the $50 unc-w's - I would guess-timate that there are no more than 1000-1200 $25 coins available.
Throw away the sales reports, soon the 1500+ backorders will be cancelled. None of them have been delivered, no one with sizeable orders placed after 6pm on 10/21 has rec'd any coins.........if you happen to be on top of that list, you may get some recycled returns, but thats it. >>
As I posted on another here is an order I placed buying a few 1/4 ounce coins on 10/21/08 at 1:51 AM....
2008 AE PLAT UNC MM 1/4 OZ 25 $319.95 $7,998.75 25 units shipped on 10/24/2008
That 2009 coin could be a dud, just look at how low the wheelchair UNC silver commemorative sells for and it is under 15,000.
I don't think the low price of the 1996-D Wheelchair Athlete silver dollar is related to the design. The other three uncirculated Olympic dollars released that year have decent designs, approximately the same mintages, and sell for about the same price, around $250-$300. I consider them all, including the wheelchair coin, greatly undervalued.
sales of plats are terrible, they may just pull the whole damn program
I believe that the plats are legislatively required, so I would expect the program to continue regardless of sales.
<< <i>your order was place before b/o status - you were anywhere from 12-15 hours before b/o depending on your timezone
10/21 approx 5pm EST was b/o status for 1/4's >>
Oh i was just showing that larger orders were being filled that day before they went on backorder status...back in 2006 many people never got their orders and they had them in well before the status was changed to backorder.
I still predict mintages will be greater than the 2006 kings.
W-collector versions are not required by the legislative branch...know this for a fact...
I was wondering about the legislation for these collector versions too and can't find anything. I did find a reference to Bill Clinton signing a law for the platinum eagles.
Platinum Eagles were authorized by Congress and signed into law by President Clinton on September 30, 1996. The US Mint produced the coins in 1997 and first offered them for sale on June 6, 1997.
That may affect the proof version but maybe later I can dig that up.
added:
OK I see on the mint website they actually do have the reference to the legislation and all platinum has some.
Public Law: 104-208 This is for the collector version W UNC
Public Law: 99-61 This is for the regular bullion version.
Public Law: 104-208 This is for the platinum proof coins.
So all seem to be authorized by legislation. It looks like the W UNC is using the same legislation as the proof coins.
<< <i>[I still predict mintages will be greater than the 2006 kings.
>>
Im thinking not for all the denominations. I think the 08's could be king, and will wait for the Redbook published mintage to decide. It has been almost a perfect storm for low mintage platinum. Sales did not start til late in the year, prices were crazy high, then they were pulled for sale for several months, and now it seems that with the mint making us dizzy with the number of different coins being offered the W-plats are just under the radar for most people especially at a time when people are tending to keep any cash they have.
That 104-208 law is a maze to figure out but I think this might be what they used:
SEC. 2. PLATINUM COINS.
(a) IN GENERAL- Section 5112 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:
`(k) PLATINUM COINS-
`(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary of the Treasury may mint and issue platinum coins in such quantity and of such variety as the Secretary determines to be appropriate.
`(2) SPECIFICATIONS- Platinum coins minted under this subsection shall meet such specifications with respect to diameter, weight, design, and fineness as the Secretary, in the Secretary's discretion, may prescribe from time to time.
`(3) LEGAL TENDER- The coins minted under this subsection shall be legal tender, as provided in section 5103 of title 31, United States Code.
`(4) NUMISMATIC ITEMS- For purposes of section 5134 of title 31, United States Code, all coins minted under this subsection shall be considered to be numismatic items.
`(5) DESIGNATIONS AND INSCRIPTIONS- On each coin minted under this subsection, there shall be--
`(A) a designation of the value of the coin and the weight of the platinum content of the coin;
`(B) an inscription of the year in which the coin is minted or issued; and
`(C) inscriptions of the words `Liberty', `In God We Trust', `United States of America', and `E Pluribus Unum'.
`(6) SALE PRICE-
`(A) BULLION- The bullion versions of the coins issued under this Act shall be sold by the Secretary at a price equal to the sum of--
`(i) the market value of the coins at the time of the sale; and
`(ii) the cost of minting, marketing, and distributing the coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, and promotional and overhead expenses).
`(B) PROOF VERSIONS- Proof versions of the coins issued under this Act shall be sold by the Secretary at a price equal to the sum of--
`(i) the cost of designing and issuing the coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, overhead expenses, marketing, and shipping); and
`(ii) a reasonable profit.
`(7) BULK SALES- The Secretary may make bulk sales of the coins issued under this subsection at a reasonable discount.'.
(b) TECHNICAL AND CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 5112(j)(1) of title 31, United States Code, is amended by inserting `or (k)' after `subsection (e)'.
****************************************
It looks like the first line says it all: the Secretary of the Treasury may mint and issue platinum coins in such quantity and of such variety as the Secretary determines to be appropriate.
You guys do not understand that they are NOT required to keep producing W-UNC coins...just look below where it says IN GENERAL....
Anyhow...I am obviously the only Fed worker on this thread.
<< <i>That 104-208 law is a maze to figure out but I think this might be what they used:
SEC. 2. PLATINUM COINS.
(a) IN GENERAL- Section 5112 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:
`(k) PLATINUM COINS-
`(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary of the Treasury may mint and issue platinum coins in such quantity and of such variety as the Secretary determines to be appropriate.
`(2) SPECIFICATIONS- Platinum coins minted under this subsection shall meet such specifications with respect to diameter, weight, design, and fineness as the Secretary, in the Secretary's discretion, may prescribe from time to time.
`(3) LEGAL TENDER- The coins minted under this subsection shall be legal tender, as provided in section 5103 of title 31, United States Code.
`(4) NUMISMATIC ITEMS- For purposes of section 5134 of title 31, United States Code, all coins minted under this subsection shall be considered to be numismatic items.
`(5) DESIGNATIONS AND INSCRIPTIONS- On each coin minted under this subsection, there shall be--
`(A) a designation of the value of the coin and the weight of the platinum content of the coin;
`(B) an inscription of the year in which the coin is minted or issued; and
`(C) inscriptions of the words `Liberty', `In God We Trust', `United States of America', and `E Pluribus Unum'.
`(6) SALE PRICE-
`(A) BULLION- The bullion versions of the coins issued under this Act shall be sold by the Secretary at a price equal to the sum of--
`(i) the market value of the coins at the time of the sale; and
`(ii) the cost of minting, marketing, and distributing the coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, and promotional and overhead expenses).
`(B) PROOF VERSIONS- Proof versions of the coins issued under this Act shall be sold by the Secretary at a price equal to the sum of--
`(i) the cost of designing and issuing the coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, overhead expenses, marketing, and shipping); and
`(ii) a reasonable profit.
`(7) BULK SALES- The Secretary may make bulk sales of the coins issued under this subsection at a reasonable discount.'.
(b) TECHNICAL AND CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 5112(j)(1) of title 31, United States Code, is amended by inserting `or (k)' after `subsection (e)'.
****************************************
It looks like the first line says it all: the Secretary of the Treasury may mint and issue platinum coins in such quantity and of such variety as the Secretary determines to be appropriate.
groht5 I take it to mean they can make or remove the UNC and proof at their discretion like I posted. This legislation seems to cover both UNC and proof platinum so both could be removed or continued or changed IMO.
The bullion are covered by a different law apparently.
<< <i>groht5 I take it to mean they can make or remove the UNC and proof at their discretion like I posted. This legislation seems to cover both UNC and proof platinum so both could be removed or continued or changed IMO.
The bullion are covered by a different law apparently. >>
"It looks like the first line says it all: the Secretary of the Treasury may mint and issue platinum coins in such quantity and of such variety as the Secretary determines to be appropriate.
So they can do anything they want with these."
TextYour right...I actually did not see your above comment at the bottom of your post...drive on!
The bottom line is there appears to be a total lack of interest of the unc 2008 W coins on eBay.
well, it's hard to argue with that. the $10s and $25s are selling at small premiums over issue price. They aren't losers, but demand certainly hasn't taken off.
The bottom line is there appears to be a total lack of interest of the unc 2008 W coins on eBay.
Maybe not so much lack of interest as lack of money, due to the economic crisis.
lack of money certainly has tempered things. I expect/hope prices will creep upward in a few weeks. The people who have them just have to stop selling them so cheaply; the $10s should be a $300 coin right now, and I'd think the $25s should be selling at $399 - not a huge premium, but something above the issue now that there is a sellout. Just need to shake the weak hands out.
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks
<< <i>Here's a question, off topic of the 2008s...
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks >>
Eric J posted that and he did it according to his later posting.
Looking again at the 2009 design selected by Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee, with the motto "A more perfect union."
The planned 2009 diversity design is a real departure from the more classic designs of the platinum coins since 1997, and the use of a privy mark to satisfy the requirement of an eagle depiction is similarly disappointing.
Platinum collectors have already endured big swings in issue price, the Mint experimenting with multiple offerings (which doubled starting in 2006 with the uncirculated-w coins) and the ill-conceived 2007 reverse proof set.
I doubt that anyone on CCAC collects platinum. The diversity design is really better suited for a meaningless silver dollar or $5 gold commemorative that would be relatively affordable and stand a chance at reaching the public at a reasonable mintage than placed on an expensive low mintage platinum coin, and undermine the design integrity of the series.
interesting that the plat 1/4 unc. went sold out after several inquiries to the USM public affairs office raised questions about the amount of orders taken/coins sold (1500)? since they went backorder on 10/21.....
and none have been delivered (save for a few returns)........
are we in for a correction of numbers...? i sure hope so. and i hope it comes soon. the last 2 weeks of daily posts on the topic have been painful enough.
<< <i>Here's a question, off topic of the 2008s...
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks >>
It doesn't more than a two coins of same composition rubbing together to knock a coin below MS69 I sold a number of 2005-2007 W Platinum Proof and UNC without OGP and with minor scuffs. They were sold for 1-2% below spot. Wish I had sold more!
I noticed in the Dec 2007 mint stats they had a limit on the number of sets to 35,000 for proof gold and showed sales of 35,799 or 799 sets over the limit so if there is ever an indication of them taking more sales than available product that is it.
Since they went over by 799 of that option I think it could be the case with the platinums too. So earlier i felt it was certain we break over 2006 by a large margin now I am not convinced. These are probably over 2006 but by a smaller amount, however until we get the real numbers which may take months or longer we won't know.
The larger issue of how popular platinum is may be a good one, I think sales show it is as popular as mosquitoes are however when I opened the new US mint 2008 gift catalog and looked through it I seemed to think that eventually once these programs end and they are doing other series this will be a very valuable set to have. Right now it is unwanted, but someday the sun will shine on them, ..... someday.
It really doesn't matter at this point they are what they are. No huge profits in this one but those of us that has collected this series starting with the proofs know they've always been overlooked. The UNC W's may have thier time but it might not be for another decade or two and more than likely won't be in production. Collect what you enjoy, this is a great series but don't expect to retire on it. JMO
The way that the Mint has been going, I will ***probably*** be phasing out of any new platinum purchases entirely.
For myself, it's becoming an issue over the Mint premiums. Paying too high premiums is very much a value issue in times of tight money and tight credit. There's no excuse for 40%-50%-60% premiums. There's no excuse for 3 different varieties of 4 different denominations of platinum. There's no need for so many gold issues in so many variations, either.
I am 100% sure that I will not support the proposed 2009 platinum design. And if I have to forego a year because of the design, there's really not much incentive to keep the rest.
There are many other options as a bullion collector/accumulator, and I'm not married to the Mint. In fact, we may not even be dating anymore.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Here's a question, off topic of the 2008s...
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks >>
I think it is a tragedy that some of us, as coin collectors knowing the value of high grade coins, would purposely lower the grade. I thought our role was akin to curators and stewards and caretakers, etc, etc. We only hold the coins during our lifetime. They endure, much longer than we do, for future generations to cherish. We shouldn't be purposely altering their finish, regardess of the circumstances. its shameful IMHO.
<< <i>Here's a question, off topic of the 2008s...
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks >>
I think it is a tragedy that some of us, as coin collectors knowing the value of high grade coins, would purposely lower the grade. I thought our role was akin to curators and stewards and caretakers, etc, etc. We only hold the coins during our lifetime. They endure, for future generations to cherish. We shouldn't be purposely altering their finish, regardess of the circumstances. its shameful IMHO. >>
You own it you do as you wish what's the problem? Maybe the goverment can step in an keep them for you so they don't get dammaged. Really if I were selling something for bullion because I needed money why should I get spot when I knew the dealer would get quite a bump off the price he paid. I wouldn't do it but I really don't have feelings one way or another for thoses given a buyer what he's paying for. JMO
<< <i>Here's a question, off topic of the 2008s...
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks >>
I think it is a tragedy that some of us, as coin collectors knowing the value of high grade coins, would purposely lower the grade. I thought our role was akin to curators and stewards and caretakers, etc, etc. We only hold the coins during our lifetime. They endure, for future generations to cherish. We shouldn't be purposely altering their finish, regardess of the circumstances. its shameful IMHO. >>
You own it you do as you wish what's the problem. Maybe the goverment can step in an keep them or you so they don't get dammaged. Really if I were selling something for bullion because I needed money why should I get spot when I knew the dealer would get quite a bump off the price he paid. I wouldn't do it but I really don't have feeling one way or another for thoses given a buyer what he's paying for. JMO >>
Some of us were selling them for spot at $2100+ and crying about it, some of us rationalized that we were only getting spot so you might as well destroy the coins surfaces. Try getting $2100+ now for a raw 2006W ozer. The same people who destroyed the coin a year ago would sell for $2100+ now and wouldn't dream of of destroying the surfaces because it has a $1200 numismatic premium now. But in the big scheme of things, destroying a collectible coin is destroying a collectible coin. How would you feel if Bill Gates bought up every 1913 Nickel and destroyed every one of them because he didn't like them . Would that be right? I know they are his and he paid for them but don't we hold some type of responsibility to future generations to make sure that we are good stewards of the artifacts of history that we call american coinage?
Really I don't care if half of them were sold for spot and damaged it's just making the rest more scarce. It's not like this is a one of a kind historic relic to many of us it's a collection and many more just bullion. In the big scheme of things this isn't a big deal IMO. The buyer got his money for what was paid for and so did the seller and that one went to the melting pot.
<< <i>Here's a question, off topic of the 2008s...
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks >>
I think it is a tragedy that some of us, as coin collectors knowing the value of high grade coins, would purposely lower the grade. I thought our role was akin to curators and stewards and caretakers, etc, etc. We only hold the coins during our lifetime. They endure, much longer than we do, for future generations to cherish. We shouldn't be purposely altering their finish, regardess of the circumstances. its shameful IMHO. >>
Shameful?? What a foolish statement. It is largely a zero sum game. For every Platinum coin that went to the melting pot there would be in theory a slight increase in numismatic value for all remaining examples. Personally I take some comfort in knowing that actual numbers of surviving coins is decreasing with time.
We shouldn't be purposely altering their finish, regardess of the circumstances. its shameful IMHO.
Well, I'm torn on this. I get queasy even thinking about damaging a coin. On the other hand, I do understand the motivation. If you're selling a coin to a non-collector at a price that reflects bullion value, the non-collector isn't going to care if you put a greasy fingerprint on the face of it. Doing so effectively lowers the remaining population and incrementally increases the scarcity/value of the remaining coins.
Comments
Siezing the opportunity.
<< <i>I wouldn't touch the purposed 2009 platinum coins with a ten foot pole. >>
Now lets be honest..............they could put a mules rear end on the coin and if Nov. 09 came and there was a hint of rarity everyone would quietly hold their noses and buy hoping for a quick flip.
Personally I think the mint should stop publishing mintages til issue is complete.
"No Longer Available"
the USM can look into the abnormalities of their ordering system and explain how they took 1500+ pieces in orders while in backorder status.
I'm a gambling man, and IMO, based on $10 unc-w mintage and the "behaved" (to borrow a phrase) action of the $50 unc-w's - I would guess-timate that there are no more than 1000-1200 $25 coins available.
Throw away the sales reports, soon the 1500+ backorders will be cancelled. None of them have been delivered, no one with sizeable orders placed after 6pm on 10/21 has rec'd any coins.........if you happen to be on top of that list, you may get some recycled returns, but thats it.
Or keep it in the box and realize the design is bad, one day I will have a coin that nobody else bought.....
They may not even be offered. Who knows.
sales of plats are terrible, they may just pull the whole damn program
1) Out of Principle. It's PC gone amok.
2) It is a hideous, ugly, uninteresting and uninspiring design.
For the plats, I only buy the designs I like and this one doesn't even come close.
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>Now that $25 unc-w plats have the sign posted
"No Longer Available"
the USM can look into the abnormalities of their ordering system and explain how they took 1500+ pieces in orders while in backorder status.
I'm a gambling man, and IMO, based on $10 unc-w mintage and the "behaved" (to borrow a phrase) action of the $50 unc-w's - I would guess-timate that there are no more than 1000-1200 $25 coins available.
Throw away the sales reports, soon the 1500+ backorders will be cancelled. None of them have been delivered, no one with sizeable orders placed after 6pm on 10/21 has rec'd any coins.........if you happen to be on top of that list, you may get some recycled returns, but thats it. >>
As I posted on another here is an order I placed buying a few 1/4 ounce coins on 10/21/08 at 1:51 AM....
2008 AE PLAT UNC MM 1/4 OZ 25 $319.95 $7,998.75 25 units shipped on 10/24/2008
10/21 approx 5pm EST was b/o status for 1/4's
I don't think the low price of the 1996-D Wheelchair Athlete silver dollar is related to the design. The other three uncirculated Olympic dollars released that year have decent designs, approximately the same mintages, and sell for about the same price, around $250-$300. I consider them all, including the wheelchair coin, greatly undervalued.
sales of plats are terrible, they may just pull the whole damn program
I believe that the plats are legislatively required, so I would expect the program to continue regardless of sales.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
not the collector W versions..........
<< <i>your order was place before b/o status - you were anywhere from 12-15 hours before b/o depending on your timezone
10/21 approx 5pm EST was b/o status for 1/4's >>
Oh i was just showing that larger orders were being filled that day before they went on backorder status...back in 2006 many people never got their orders and they had them in well before the status was changed to backorder.
I still predict mintages will be greater than the 2006 kings.
W-collector versions are not required by the legislative branch...know this for a fact...
Platinum Eagles were authorized by Congress and signed into law by President Clinton on September 30, 1996. The US Mint produced the coins in 1997 and first offered them for sale on June 6, 1997.
That may affect the proof version but maybe later I can dig that up.
added:
OK I see on the mint website they actually do have the reference to the legislation and all platinum has some.
Public Law: 104-208 This is for the collector version W UNC
Public Law: 99-61 This is for the regular bullion version.
Public Law: 104-208 This is for the platinum proof coins.
So all seem to be authorized by legislation. It looks like the W UNC is using the same legislation as the proof coins.
<< <i>[I still predict mintages will be greater than the 2006 kings.
>>
Im thinking not for all the denominations. I think the 08's could be king, and will wait for the Redbook published mintage to decide.
It has been almost a perfect storm for low mintage platinum. Sales did not start til late in the year, prices were crazy high, then they were pulled for sale for several months, and now it seems that with the mint making us dizzy with the number of different coins being offered the W-plats are just under the radar for most people especially at a time when people are tending to keep any cash they have.
SEC. 2. PLATINUM COINS.
(a) IN GENERAL- Section 5112 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:
`(k) PLATINUM COINS-
`(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary of the Treasury may mint and issue platinum coins in such quantity and of such variety as the Secretary determines to be appropriate.
`(2) SPECIFICATIONS- Platinum coins minted under this subsection shall meet such specifications with respect to diameter, weight, design, and fineness as the Secretary, in the Secretary's discretion, may prescribe from time to time.
`(3) LEGAL TENDER- The coins minted under this subsection shall be legal tender, as provided in section 5103 of title 31, United States Code.
`(4) NUMISMATIC ITEMS- For purposes of section 5134 of title 31, United States Code, all coins minted under this subsection shall be considered to be numismatic items.
`(5) DESIGNATIONS AND INSCRIPTIONS- On each coin minted under this subsection, there shall be--
`(A) a designation of the value of the coin and the weight of the platinum content of the coin;
`(B) an inscription of the year in which the coin is minted or issued; and
`(C) inscriptions of the words `Liberty', `In God We Trust', `United States of America', and `E Pluribus Unum'.
`(6) SALE PRICE-
`(A) BULLION- The bullion versions of the coins issued under this Act shall be sold by the Secretary at a price equal to the sum of--
`(i) the market value of the coins at the time of the sale; and
`(ii) the cost of minting, marketing, and distributing the coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, and promotional and overhead expenses).
`(B) PROOF VERSIONS- Proof versions of the coins issued under this Act shall be sold by the Secretary at a price equal to the sum of--
`(i) the cost of designing and issuing the coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, overhead expenses, marketing, and shipping); and
`(ii) a reasonable profit.
`(7) BULK SALES- The Secretary may make bulk sales of the coins issued under this subsection at a reasonable discount.'.
(b) TECHNICAL AND CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 5112(j)(1) of title 31, United States Code, is amended by inserting `or (k)' after `subsection (e)'.
****************************************
It looks like the first line says it all: the Secretary of the Treasury may mint and issue platinum coins in such quantity and of such variety as the Secretary determines to be appropriate.
So they can do anything they want with these.
Eric
San Diego, CA
Anyhow...I am obviously the only Fed worker on this thread.
<< <i>That 104-208 law is a maze to figure out but I think this might be what they used:
SEC. 2. PLATINUM COINS.
(a) IN GENERAL- Section 5112 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:
`(k) PLATINUM COINS-
`(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary of the Treasury may mint and issue platinum coins in such quantity and of such variety as the Secretary determines to be appropriate.
`(2) SPECIFICATIONS- Platinum coins minted under this subsection shall meet such specifications with respect to diameter, weight, design, and fineness as the Secretary, in the Secretary's discretion, may prescribe from time to time.
`(3) LEGAL TENDER- The coins minted under this subsection shall be legal tender, as provided in section 5103 of title 31, United States Code.
`(4) NUMISMATIC ITEMS- For purposes of section 5134 of title 31, United States Code, all coins minted under this subsection shall be considered to be numismatic items.
`(5) DESIGNATIONS AND INSCRIPTIONS- On each coin minted under this subsection, there shall be--
`(A) a designation of the value of the coin and the weight of the platinum content of the coin;
`(B) an inscription of the year in which the coin is minted or issued; and
`(C) inscriptions of the words `Liberty', `In God We Trust', `United States of America', and `E Pluribus Unum'.
`(6) SALE PRICE-
`(A) BULLION- The bullion versions of the coins issued under this Act shall be sold by the Secretary at a price equal to the sum of--
`(i) the market value of the coins at the time of the sale; and
`(ii) the cost of minting, marketing, and distributing the coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, and promotional and overhead expenses).
`(B) PROOF VERSIONS- Proof versions of the coins issued under this Act shall be sold by the Secretary at a price equal to the sum of--
`(i) the cost of designing and issuing the coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, overhead expenses, marketing, and shipping); and
`(ii) a reasonable profit.
`(7) BULK SALES- The Secretary may make bulk sales of the coins issued under this subsection at a reasonable discount.'.
(b) TECHNICAL AND CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 5112(j)(1) of title 31, United States Code, is amended by inserting `or (k)' after `subsection (e)'.
****************************************
It looks like the first line says it all: the Secretary of the Treasury may mint and issue platinum coins in such quantity and of such variety as the Secretary determines to be appropriate.
So they can do anything they want with these. >>
The bullion are covered by a different law apparently.
<< <i>The bottom line is there appears to be a total lack of interest of the unc 2008 W coins on eBay. >>
That is good news for now!
like the Visitor Center $5 gold commem.
<< <i>groht5 I take it to mean they can make or remove the UNC and proof at their discretion like I posted. This legislation seems to cover both UNC and proof platinum so both could be removed or continued or changed IMO.
The bullion are covered by a different law apparently. >>
"It looks like the first line says it all: the Secretary of the Treasury may mint and issue platinum coins in such quantity and of such variety as the Secretary determines to be appropriate.
So they can do anything they want with these."
TextYour right...I actually did not see your above comment at the bottom of your post...drive on!
well, it's hard to argue with that. the $10s and $25s are selling at small premiums over issue price. They aren't losers, but demand certainly hasn't taken off.
Maybe not so much lack of interest as lack of money, due to the economic crisis.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Maybe not so much lack of interest as lack of money, due to the economic crisis.
lack of money certainly has tempered things. I expect/hope prices will creep upward in a few weeks. The people who have them just have to stop selling them so cheaply; the $10s should be a $300 coin right now, and I'd think the $25s should be selling at $399 - not a huge premium, but something above the issue now that there is a sellout. Just need to shake the weak hands out.
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks
<< <i>Here's a question, off topic of the 2008s...
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks >>
Eric J posted that and he did it according to his later posting.
The planned 2009 diversity design is a real departure from the more classic designs of the platinum coins since 1997, and the use of a privy mark to satisfy the requirement of an eagle depiction is similarly disappointing.
Platinum collectors have already endured big swings in issue price, the Mint experimenting with multiple offerings (which doubled starting in 2006 with the uncirculated-w coins) and the ill-conceived 2007 reverse proof set.
I doubt that anyone on CCAC collects platinum. The diversity design is really better suited for a meaningless silver dollar or $5 gold commemorative that would be relatively affordable and stand a chance at reaching the public at a reasonable mintage than placed on an expensive low mintage platinum coin, and undermine the design integrity of the series.
http://www.ccac.gov/media/calendar/meetingMinutes/2008_08.doc
It might be too late to change this, but here's the address and email address for anyone who might want to tell CCAC what they think:
Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee
801 9th Street, NW
Washington, DC 20220
Email address: info@ccac.gov
Recorded meeting information line: 202-354-7502
Fax line: 202-756-6830
and none have been delivered (save for a few returns)........
are we in for a correction of numbers...?
why not just publicly state how many coins of each denom/finish were minted and available for sale.....
it would save them lots of trouble with speculators using the return policy.....if they turn out to be good numbers....
i sure hope so. and i hope it comes soon. the last 2 weeks of daily posts on the topic have been painful enough.
<< <i>Here's a question, off topic of the 2008s...
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks >>
It doesn't more than a two coins of same composition rubbing together to knock a coin below MS69
I sold a number of 2005-2007 W Platinum Proof and UNC without OGP and with minor scuffs.
They were sold for 1-2% below spot.
Wish I had sold more!
Since they went over by 799 of that option I think it could be the case with the platinums too. So earlier i felt it was certain we break over 2006 by a large margin now I am not convinced. These are probably over 2006 but by a smaller amount, however until we get the real numbers which may take months or longer we won't know.
The larger issue of how popular platinum is may be a good one, I think sales show it is as popular as mosquitoes are however when I opened the new US mint 2008 gift catalog and looked through it I seemed to think that eventually once these programs end and they are doing other series this will be a very valuable set to have. Right now it is unwanted, but someday the sun will shine on them, ..... someday.
<< <i>Looking again at the 2009 design selected by Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee, with the motto "A more perfect union."
>>
I remember we all thought the mint was going to do the owl and the eagle for the 2008 plat design and instead they changed that, so I will be
shocked
if they actually release that design on a platinum coin.
SHOCKED
shocked
if they actually release that design on a platinum coin.
SHOCKED
Yeah, me too. Which is what concerns me.
There was nothing wrong with the original owl and eagle design--
most of us liked it and were looking forward to it. But the powers that be changed it to the batman/ poop foot design:
"The Big Foot Pointy Head Batman Eagle with Liberty standing on a pile of Poop".
Now they're moving towards a design few of us like. I'm willing to bet that they use it.
For myself, it's becoming an issue over the Mint premiums. Paying too high premiums is very much a value issue in times of tight money and tight credit. There's no excuse for 40%-50%-60% premiums. There's no excuse for 3 different varieties of 4 different denominations of platinum. There's no need for so many gold issues in so many variations, either.
I am 100% sure that I will not support the proposed 2009 platinum design. And if I have to forego a year because of the design, there's really not much incentive to keep the rest.
There are many other options as a bullion collector/accumulator, and I'm not married to the Mint. In fact, we may not even be dating anymore.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Here's a question, off topic of the 2008s...
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks >>
I think it is a tragedy that some of us, as coin collectors knowing the value of high grade coins, would purposely lower the grade. I thought our role was akin to curators and stewards and caretakers, etc, etc. We only hold the coins during our lifetime. They endure, much longer than we do, for future generations to cherish. We shouldn't be purposely altering their finish, regardess of the circumstances. its shameful IMHO.
lol
The Mint is a terrible girlfriend.
Shows no consideration for us and believes that no matter what, we'll continue to give her money.
She'll tease us with this offering or that, but most of the time we're the ones getting %@*#!
<< <i>Here's a question, off topic of the 2008s...
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks >>
I think it is a tragedy that some of us, as coin collectors knowing the value of high grade coins, would purposely lower the grade. I thought our role was akin to curators and stewards and caretakers, etc, etc. We only hold the coins during our lifetime. They endure, for future generations to cherish. We shouldn't be purposely altering their finish, regardess of the circumstances. its shameful IMHO. >>
You own it you do as you wish what's the problem? Maybe the goverment can step in an keep them for you so they don't get dammaged. Really if I were selling something for bullion because I needed money why should I get spot when I knew the dealer would get quite a bump off the price he paid. I wouldn't do it but I really don't have feelings one way or another for thoses given a buyer what he's paying for. JMO
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's a question, off topic of the 2008s...
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks >>
I think it is a tragedy that some of us, as coin collectors knowing the value of high grade coins, would purposely lower the grade. I thought our role was akin to curators and stewards and caretakers, etc, etc. We only hold the coins during our lifetime. They endure, for future generations to cherish. We shouldn't be purposely altering their finish, regardess of the circumstances. its shameful IMHO. >>
You own it you do as you wish what's the problem. Maybe the goverment can step in an keep them or you so they don't get dammaged. Really if I were selling something for bullion because I needed money why should I get spot when I knew the dealer would get quite a bump off the price he paid. I wouldn't do it but I really don't have feeling one way or another for thoses given a buyer what he's paying for. JMO >>
Some of us were selling them for spot at $2100+ and crying about it, some of us rationalized that we were only getting spot so you might as well destroy the coins surfaces. Try getting $2100+ now for a raw 2006W ozer. The same people who destroyed the coin a year ago would sell for $2100+ now and wouldn't dream of of destroying the surfaces because it has a $1200 numismatic premium now. But in the big scheme of things, destroying a collectible coin is destroying a collectible coin. How would you feel if Bill Gates bought up every 1913 Nickel and destroyed every one of them because he didn't like them . Would that be right? I know they are his and he paid for them but don't we hold some type of responsibility to future generations to make sure that we are good stewards of the artifacts of history that we call american coinage?
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's a question, off topic of the 2008s...
When platinum was at 2,000+ an ounce, I know some low mintage coins were being sold off at bullion price, and there was some talk about swirling the coins around in a jar to effectively remove them from the population of collectible coins.
Anyway, my question is this-- for anyone who did that, how difficult was it? I've never tried this, and figured that since platinum is harder than silver or gold, it might be a challenge to mar the surfaces. Was that the case? Anyone have before and after pictures or something? Thanks >>
I think it is a tragedy that some of us, as coin collectors knowing the value of high grade coins, would purposely lower the grade. I thought our role was akin to curators and stewards and caretakers, etc, etc. We only hold the coins during our lifetime. They endure, much longer than we do, for future generations to cherish. We shouldn't be purposely altering their finish, regardess of the circumstances. its shameful IMHO. >>
Shameful??
What a foolish statement.
It is largely a zero sum game.
For every Platinum coin that went to the melting pot there would be in theory a slight increase in numismatic value for all remaining examples.
Personally I take some comfort in knowing that actual numbers of surviving coins is decreasing with time.
Well, I'm torn on this. I get queasy even thinking about damaging a coin. On the other hand, I do understand the motivation. If you're selling a coin to a non-collector at a price that reflects bullion value, the non-collector isn't going to care if you put a greasy fingerprint on the face of it. Doing so effectively lowers the remaining population and incrementally increases the scarcity/value of the remaining coins.