<< <i>I am debating on purchasing a 4 coin gold proof set (2012). Big chunk of change. Yea or nay? >>
Probably a low-mintage set, but it may not have a big upside (numismatically speaking). If the price of gold resumes its upward trend, premiums on existing scarce dates will likely shrink and mintages of proof Gold Eagles going forward may trend even lower.
Here's what I did- I bought a four coin 2012 Proof gold eagle set a couple of weeks ago when the 1-ounce sold out. It is a beautiful set, and I already sent the three smaller coins into PCGS for grading. Looked like good quality to me.
You're pretty much guaranteed to have 3 or even all four be the lowest mintage proofs of their series. And it's a pretty well-collected series. So I don't see a big downside.
I paid for it by selling the Lucy Hayes and Lucretia Garfield MS-69 coins I had that had good profits in them. I intended to flip them anyway.
The 2013 gold buffalo should be a reverse proof if the mint was smart enough for the 100 year anniversary of the 2013 Buffalo nickel. If not, it seems the gold buffalo proofs are waning. 2013 could be a lower mintage year than the 2008 W.
<< <i>The 2013 gold buffalo should be a reverse proof if the mint was smart enough for the 100 year anniversary of the 2013 Buffalo nickel. If not, it seems the gold buffalo proofs are waning. Could be a lower mintage year than the 2008 W. >>
2013 Buffalo nickel???? Me thinks you mean 1913 buff!
Not the key, but over 50% below other mintages of the 06,07,09,10,11 proof bufs >>
With the not much lower mintage 08 W proof bringing on average $5K, the 12's should see a rosy future. >>
They will see a nice future price increase, but what are your thoughts on the 08 current market pricing? I think the 08 will be selling at a bit higher premium due to the fractional buffs. Could be wrong, just a gut feeling
I'll take the 2006 reverse proof $50 over the '08 buff any day! It's almost half the mintage, one of a kind, sells at ~75% of the buff, and the design is as popular--if not more.
<< <i>I'll take the 2006 reverse proof $50 over the '08 buff any day! It's almost half the mintage, one of a kind, sells at ~75% of the buff, and the design is as popular--if not more. >>
I do think that coin is under appreciated a bit. Very unique and attractive with a fairly low production considering what it is. A PCGS 70 should be around 5k if you ask me but I think you can get them at quite a discount to that.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>I'll take the 2006 reverse proof $50 over the '08 buff any day! It's almost half the mintage, one of a kind, sells at ~75% of the buff, and the design is as popular--if not more. >>
I think what's holding back the 2006-W reverse proof is that its "one of a kind" status could change at any time. The 2006-P reverse proof Silver Eagle was also "one of a kind" until 2011. Now, reverse proof Silver Eagles are on their way way to becoming an annual offering.
If the price of gold resumes its upward trend, premiums on existing scarce dates will likely shrink and mintages of proof Gold Eagles going forward may trend even lower.
I've been thinking along those lines since about 2000, when I started trying to snag the lowest mintage Plats. Playing the low mintage collector bullion game has been a great way to stay interested in new issues, but it's also been more rewarding than any mutual fund I could have found.
I really don't flip many coins, and a few of them have peaked and then receded from their peaks - but I can sell any of them at any time for a nice profit over what I originally paid. Some of those coins are no longer contenders as keys, but they have maintained most of their premiums and are still scarce coins.
In my opinion, even if the mintages continue lower the reason that the mintages could continue dropping is mainly because the price of pms is getting higher. So, even when you lose, you win.
Additionally, for every current player who decides to drop out because of the cost, there will be more refugees from stocks & bonds who enter first as new pm buyers, then as new pm collectors, thinking "why didn't I start doing this when gold was $400?"
And at some point, gold will stabilize and those scarcity premiums just might return. All things considered, I still can't think of a better savings plan for most income earners than the pms.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
@jmski52 - great summary of my own thinking. Buying somewhat low-mintage bullion that is collectable by many with low premium over bullion prices has proved (so far) being quite profitable
<< <i>I think what's holding back the 2006-W reverse proof is that its "one of a kind" status could change at any time >>
And so could the coveted Buffalo's in 2013. Not only is the USM looking at doing a Reverse Proof, but also was looking into fractionals being released this year as a limited issue.
The latter would throw a monkey wrench into the pricing of 2008-W fractionals, none of these issues are "untouchable" any longer.
And so could the coveted Buffalo's in 2013. Not only is the USM looking at doing a Reverse Proof, but also was looking into fractionals being released this year as a limited issue.
If the Mint produces a Gold Buffalo Proof, and Reverse Proof, and Unc, and Satin Unc, and a batch of Fractionals in 2013 you can bet that it will be a popular year with at least one or two new potential keys, and probably more than just a few speculators jumping on the bandwagon this time than there were in 2008.
So even when you win, you lose.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I agree with everyone. Amazing how much the mintages dropped--and that very few people will care. I, of course, hope this turns around some day and that all the hoarders/flippers get stinking rich, but hard to imagine how or when that might happen. Now if you were collecting iPads...
Maybe the question is how low would they have to go (mintages) before note would be taken and TRUE (whatever that means) collectors become interested and taking note. IMO, true collectors as opposed to hoarders or flippers would generally get one of whatever it is and actually enjoy the coin for its own sake, rather than calculating the $$ to be made from a flip.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
I 100% agree that nobody is going to care one iota about these low mintage 2012 proof gold eagles at all. That said, if any of you accidentally bought some of these, I may be willing to make you whole again (especially on halves and quarters). Just send me a message if interested.
As i am in a particularly generous mood today. I will trade you some ultra low mintage lucy hayes proof first spouse coins (3850 mintage) straight up for 2012 Proof Gold halves.
I agree with many of you here. As painful as it may be for the search of the next holy grail of low mintage Mint Lottery Offerings, it didn't happen in 2012 for me.
I miss the excitement of the first pucks, the 2008-2007' SAE's, Anniversary Sets (the Real ones), and the slow-simmering UHR.
nobody is going to care one iota about these low mintage 2012 proof gold eagles at all
I recall this sentiment from late 2008 when the Gold Buffs languished on the vine, and in 2009 when the UHRs stopped selling because the mintage was so high. Yes, I remember this sentiment very well.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I know the spouse numbers are lower but the collector base is so much smaller. I would say there are 6x more proof eagle collectors as spouse collectors easily. With the spouses they all are pretty much getting lumped together. On the half here we are talking about a 40% beat of the prior lowest mintage proof eagle. Will people notice that? I am betting yes. If these numbers are correct we are talking about the second lowest half eagle ever (2007 w burnished $25 is first). It's a proof coin which I think everyone agrees is better than a non proof coin as far as looks are concerned. I think the telemarketers and tv coin shows eat this up. Of course I could be wrong but I am not putting your money on the line, so I am ok with that. And with the recovery gaining strength and my inside source at the mint saying they will accept EBT cards soon, this is a lock
Right now, you can buy a 2012-W Gold Spouse from the Mint at 19% to 20% over spot, when any 1/2 oz gold coin would be between 5% and 15% over spot anyway.
The time to buy this stuff is when nobody wants it. On the other hand, you can always get into something like Facebook or Apple when they're already overbought X 10.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>nobody is going to care one iota about these low mintage 2012 proof gold eagles at all
I recall this sentiment from late 2008 when the Gold Buffs languished on the vine, and in 2009 when the UHRs stopped selling because the mintage was so high. Yes, I remember this sentiment very well. >>
Good post Jmski52!
I am not saying the 2012 proof eagle will perform well (I did buy some of them), but I have to agree with you that the crowd sentiment is indeed often too "one dimensional".
I also remember most people in 2007 think the first spouse is the next big thing because it was only "20K" mintage and they are made of gold. Similarly, in 2010, the 5oz ATB bullion was the hottest coin because of only "33K" mintage. Now, not many people care about them anymore.
I think the modern coin market is extremely similar to stock market. When many people chasing the hot stock, it is almost the right time to sell. When no one care about a stock, but, say the stock is trading at only 1.1 book value, it may be a good time to buy into that stock.
Notice I said "virtually". I left room for Danny and many others in there.
Bottom line is ... let's see a year from now what the coin moved up. If capsuled 2012 proof gold coins are worth 50% more than common date proof gold eagles then I will be the first to say I misjudged them. Won't be the first time I made a mistake or the last.
Until then, let's see what happens!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I don't think the 2012 proof gold eagles are low enough for one important reason, the comparison to the 2012 W 1 ounce gold eagle. At least as far as the 1 ouncer goes it pales in comparison to that coin.
Tough crowd. 50%. I was just thinking you did well if you bought from the mint at $1006. It would be great to see 70s at $1350 if you can sell them with no fees (tougher but doable) .
<< <i>I don't think the 2012 proof gold eagles are low enough for one important reason, the comparison to the 2012 W 1 ounce gold eagle. At least as far as the 1 ouncer goes it pales in comparison to that coin. >>
If the price of gold doubles in the next few years, as many are predicting, premiums on all gold eagles are going to be hit hard, and proof mintages will probably continue to plunge.
Of course, nice profits will still be made on the rise in bullion value.
<< <i>If the price of gold doubles in the next few years, as many are predicting, premiums on all gold eagles are going to be hit hard, and proof mintages will probably continue to plunge.
Of course, nice profits will still be made on the rise in bullion value. >>
If gold doubles it will be because of great demand. Premiums should increase with such demand. ASE demand recently created a premium increase.
Proof AGE collectors are limited because of the existing higher premium for proofs. This is what will keep 2012 W AGE prices from seeing their potential.
Comments
Gold Eagle Proof Coin Mintage from from here
Date 1 oz. 1/2 oz. 1/4 oz. 1/10 oz.
1986 *
446,290 N/A N/A N/A
1987 *
147,498 143,398 N/A N/A
1988 87,133 76,528 98,028 143,881
1989 54,570 44,798 54,170 84,647
1990 62,401 51,636 62,674 99,349
1991 50,411 53,125 50,839 70,334
1992 44,826 40,976 46,269 64,874
1993 * 34,369 43,819 46,464 58,649
1994 46,674 44,584 48,172 62,849
1995 * 46,368 45,388 47,526 62,667
1996 36,153 35,058 38,219 57,047
1997 * 32,999 26,344 29,805 34,977
1998 25,886 25,374 29,503 39,395
1999 31,427 30,427 34,417 48,428
2000 33,007 32,028 36,036 49,971
2001 24,555 23,240 25,613 37,530
2002 27,499 26,646 29,242 40,864
2003 28,344 28,270 30,292 40,027
2004 28,215 27,330 28,839 35,131
2005 35,246 34,311 37,207 49,265
2006 * 47,092 34,322 36,127 47,277
2007 51,810 44,025 46,189 58,553
2008 30,237 22,602 18,877 28,116
2009* N/A N/A N/A N/A
2010* 60,000 45,000 45,000 55,000
Sales from here
2011 AMERICAN EAGLE GOLD PROOF COINS
One ounce 30,000* 0
One-half ounce 8,066* 0
One-quarter ounce 10,381* 0
One-tenth ounce 24,000* 0
Four-coin set 18,873* 0
2012 AMERICAN EAGLE GOLD PROOF COINS
One ounce 14,848* 552
One-half ounce 3,962* 0
One-quarter ounce 4,969* 0
One-tenth ounce 11,680* 0
Four-coin set 7,298 1,563
That likely represents 10%+ of the total production of the 1/4oz $10 and 1/2oz $25 coins.
Hard to believe that wasn't in part a single very large order.
2008 Proof Buf mintage was 18,863.
Not the key, but over 50% below other mintages of the 06,07,09,10,11 proof bufs
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
<< <i>Sold out at 19,765
2008 Proof Buf mintage was 18,863.
Not the key, but over 50% below other mintages of the 06,07,09,10,11 proof bufs >>
With the not much lower mintage 08 W proof bringing on average $5K, the 12's should see a rosy future.
Rampant currency debasement will be the most important investment trend of this decade, and it will devastate most people.
- Nick Giambruno Buy dollar insurance now, because the policy will cost more as the dollar becomes worth less.
<< <i>I am debating on purchasing a 4 coin gold proof set (2012). Big chunk of change. Yea or nay? >>
Probably a low-mintage set, but it may not have a big upside (numismatically speaking). If the price of gold resumes its upward trend, premiums on existing scarce dates will likely shrink and mintages of proof Gold Eagles going forward may trend even lower.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
You're pretty much guaranteed to have 3 or even all four be the lowest mintage proofs of their series. And it's a pretty well-collected series. So I don't see a big downside.
I paid for it by selling the Lucy Hayes and Lucretia Garfield MS-69 coins I had that had good profits in them. I intended to flip them anyway.
Maybe smart or dumb, time will tell.
Box of 20
<< <i>The 2013 gold buffalo should be a reverse proof if the mint was smart enough for the 100 year anniversary of the 2013 Buffalo nickel. If not, it seems the gold buffalo proofs are waning. Could be a lower mintage year than the 2008 W. >>
2013 Buffalo nickel???? Me thinks you mean 1913 buff!
<< <i>
<< <i>Sold out at 19,765
2008 Proof Buf mintage was 18,863.
Not the key, but over 50% below other mintages of the 06,07,09,10,11 proof bufs >>
With the not much lower mintage 08 W proof bringing on average $5K, the 12's should see a rosy future. >>
They will see a nice future price increase, but what are your thoughts on the 08 current market pricing? I think the 08 will be selling at a bit higher premium due to the fractional buffs. Could be wrong, just a gut feeling
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
An additional 1,100 sets sold last week.
Almost 30% of total sales have occurred in last 2 weeks.
<< <i>I'll take the 2006 reverse proof $50 over the '08 buff any day! It's almost half the mintage, one of a kind, sells at ~75% of the buff, and the design is as popular--if not more. >>
I do think that coin is under appreciated a bit. Very unique and attractive with a fairly low production considering what it is. A PCGS 70 should be around 5k if you ask me but I think you can get them at quite a discount to that.
<< <i>I'll take the 2006 reverse proof $50 over the '08 buff any day! It's almost half the mintage, one of a kind, sells at ~75% of the buff, and the design is as popular--if not more. >>
I think what's holding back the 2006-W reverse proof is that its "one of a kind" status could change at any time. The 2006-P reverse proof Silver Eagle was also "one of a kind" until 2011. Now, reverse proof Silver Eagles are on their way way to becoming an annual offering.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I've been thinking along those lines since about 2000, when I started trying to snag the lowest mintage Plats. Playing the low mintage collector bullion game has been a great way to stay interested in new issues, but it's also been more rewarding than any mutual fund I could have found.
I really don't flip many coins, and a few of them have peaked and then receded from their peaks - but I can sell any of them at any time for a nice profit over what I originally paid. Some of those coins are no longer contenders as keys, but they have maintained most of their premiums and are still scarce coins.
In my opinion, even if the mintages continue lower the reason that the mintages could continue dropping is mainly because the price of pms is getting higher. So, even when you lose, you win.
Additionally, for every current player who decides to drop out because of the cost, there will be more refugees from stocks & bonds who enter first as new pm buyers, then as new pm collectors, thinking "why didn't I start doing this when gold was $400?"
And at some point, gold will stabilize and those scarcity premiums just might return. All things considered, I still can't think of a better savings plan for most income earners than the pms.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I think what's holding back the 2006-W reverse proof is that its "one of a kind" status could change at any time >>
And so could the coveted Buffalo's in 2013. Not only is the USM looking at doing a Reverse Proof, but also was looking into fractionals being released this year as a limited issue.
The latter would throw a monkey wrench into the pricing of 2008-W fractionals, none of these issues are "untouchable" any longer.
Jmski Iz prophet, no?
comrade renski
If the Mint produces a Gold Buffalo Proof, and Reverse Proof, and Unc, and Satin Unc, and a batch of Fractionals in 2013 you can bet that it will be a popular year with at least one or two new potential keys, and probably more than just a few speculators jumping on the bandwagon this time than there were in 2008.
So even when you win, you lose.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>If the Mint produces a Gold Buffalo Proof, and Reverse Proof, and Unc, and Satin Unc, and a batch of Fractionals in 2013
<< <i>
MUCHO DINERO
The 4 coin gold proof set or one of the last four gold spouses??
<< <i>So what will sell out first??
The 4 coin gold proof set or one of the last four gold spouses?? >>
The 4 coin gold proof set ! What do I win ?
<< <i>So what will sell out first??
The 4 coin gold proof set or one of the last four gold spouses?? >>
First Spouse Gold Alice Paul approaching the Lucy Hayes Key low Mintage with no signs of
selling Out. The mint probably minted at least 2,500 pcs. if not more!
Platinum is widening spread over gold this AM.
<< <i>Dust off your lower graded platinum pieces.
Platinum is widening spread over gold this AM. >>
Finally, the Platinum price increase should finally give them a small jolt. Melt +5%?
It's on backorder as of today...............
1 oz: 2001 - 24,555
1/2 oz: 2008 - 22,602
1/4 oz: 2008 - 18,877
1/10 oz: 2008 - 28,116
2012 AGE proof estimated mintage: (assuming ~9k 4 coin set was sold)
1 oz: < 24,000
1/2 oz: < 12,000
1/4 oz: <13,000
1/10 oz: <21,000
Looks like the 2012 AGE proof is the lowest in all denomination.
Are they sleepers?? Or 2013 will be even lower?
<< <i>Under Product Schedule, "No Longer Available" 2012 AGE Proof Four-Coin set (PJ5) is shown as Sold Out. >>
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
1 oz: 2001 - 24,555
1/2 oz: 2008 - 22,602
1/4 oz: 2008 - 18,877
1/10 oz: 2008 - 28,116
2012 AGE proof estimated mintage: (assuming ~9k 4 coin set was sold)
1 oz: < 24,000
1/2 oz: < 12,000
1/4 oz: <13,000
1/10 oz: <21,000
Nice, low mintage keys!
I knew it would happen.
And virtually no one will care I suspect.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
<< <i>"Nice, low mintage keys!"
And virtually no one will care I suspect.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin >>
comrade buzzkill.
IMO, true collectors as opposed to hoarders or flippers would generally get one of whatever it is and actually enjoy the coin for its own sake, rather than calculating the $$ to be made from a flip.
Well, just Love coins, period.
As i am in a particularly generous mood today. I will trade you some ultra low mintage lucy hayes proof first spouse coins (3850 mintage) straight up for 2012 Proof Gold halves.
I agree with many of you here. As painful as it may be for the search of the next holy grail of low mintage Mint Lottery Offerings, it didn't happen in 2012 for me.
I miss the excitement of the first pucks, the 2008-2007' SAE's, Anniversary Sets (the Real ones), and the slow-simmering UHR.
Miles
<< <i>"Nice, low mintage keys!" >>
<< <i>And virtually no one will care I suspect. >>
Agreed.
But it's exactly the same feeling I have with every low mintage gold haag that is released as well.
Nobody cares about alot of these issues, and the gold spouses are just dying on the vine as well.
I recall this sentiment from late 2008 when the Gold Buffs languished on the vine, and in 2009 when the UHRs stopped selling because the mintage was so high. Yes, I remember this sentiment very well.
I knew it would happen.
Well, just Love coins, period.
The time to buy this stuff is when nobody wants it. On the other hand, you can always get into something like Facebook or Apple when they're already overbought X 10.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>nobody is going to care one iota about these low mintage 2012 proof gold eagles at all
I recall this sentiment from late 2008 when the Gold Buffs languished on the vine, and in 2009 when the UHRs stopped selling because the mintage was so high. Yes, I remember this sentiment very well.
Good post Jmski52!
I am not saying the 2012 proof eagle will perform well (I did buy some of them), but I have to agree with you that the crowd sentiment is indeed often too "one dimensional".
I also remember most people in 2007 think the first spouse is the next big thing because it was only "20K" mintage and they are made of gold.
Similarly, in 2010, the 5oz ATB bullion was the hottest coin because of only "33K" mintage.
Now, not many people care about them anymore.
I think the modern coin market is extremely similar to stock market. When many people chasing the hot stock, it is almost the right time to sell.
When no one care about a stock, but, say the stock is trading at only 1.1 book value, it may be a good time to buy into that stock.
Bottom line is ... let's see a year from now what the coin moved up. If capsuled 2012 proof gold coins are worth 50% more than common date proof gold eagles then I will be the first to say I misjudged them. Won't be the first time I made a mistake or the last.
Until then, let's see what happens!
Wondercoin
<< <i>I don't think the 2012 proof gold eagles are low enough for one important reason, the comparison to the 2012 W 1 ounce gold eagle. At least as far as the 1 ouncer goes it pales in comparison to that coin. >>
They would make good for a smelter.
Of course, nice profits will still be made on the rise in bullion value.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>If the price of gold doubles in the next few years, as many are predicting, premiums on all gold eagles are going to be hit hard, and proof mintages will probably continue to plunge.
Of course, nice profits will still be made on the rise in bullion value.
If gold doubles it will be because of great demand. Premiums should increase with such demand. ASE demand recently created a premium increase.
Proof AGE collectors are limited because of the existing higher premium for proofs. This is what will keep 2012 W AGE prices from seeing their potential.
Rampant currency debasement will be the most important investment trend of this decade, and it will devastate most people.
- Nick Giambruno Buy dollar insurance now, because the policy will cost more as the dollar becomes worth less.