Another thing comes to mind, when did the meltdown start for Platinum Eagles?
I've heard of instances of proof APEs being sent to the smelter even several years ago, when prices were much lower. Platinum coins were moving too slowly for dealers to tie up a lot of money in inventory. Now at over $2,200 per ounce, early "common date" platinum proof sets are probably disappearing at a much faster rate than before.
Years from now, the platinum eagle melts of 2008 may be compared with the Morgan dollar melts of the early 20th century.
Miles - I have never posted prices on NGC graded coins, so I can not comment on that. I am paying full Grey Sheet bid for fresh raw 04 $50's today, which, last I looked was $2,300/coin. Last year, that was $2,200- $2,250/coin for most of my buys I believe on that date and denomination. I am not aware of anyone paying more than I am for these coins - best I know the sheet rises and falls based upon publicly posted bids for these coins and top bid (I am aware of) is $2,300 for this coin (give or take $25-$50). As has been the case for quite a while, I could use up to (10) coins today at that level if anyone had them. Hopes this helps.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Does it make more sense to sell platinum proof 69s for melt price or to hold for the future?
That's a complex question and it depends on where you are right now and what your plans are for your Platinum holdings. If you have held a PR69 for a long time and don't consider yourself a collector then this price spike might be your way out. For example, if you purchased a 1997 $25 Platinum Proof Eagle from the mint when it was first offered in 1997 then you paid $199.00 for it originally. At today's prices a 1997 $25 Platinum Proof is worth $574.50 (based on spot price from Kitco at $2,298 on March 4th @ 7:32 AM EST). That's a very nice profit. If you wanted to, you can sell now and cash in on your investment.
On the other hand, if you enjoy the coins you have, why sell? If spot dropped tomorrow back to $1,275 as it used to be a few months ago, that 1997 $25 Platinum Proof will be worth $318.75. That's a $255.75 profit you missed out.
What I mean is, with Platinum prices spiking the way they are, this is the best time to let any unwanted Platinum Eagle holdings go. There are only three possibilities for Platinum in the future (as with any other precious metal:
1. Price drops (and if you hold for too long, you loose revenue) 2. Price spikes even more (after you let go and you feel like you missed out) 3. Price stays the same
Wow, Platinum just topped $2300!!! What a crazy streak. Now $350 OVER issue price for the 10th anniversary set. I want to sell, but every time I think about it, it goes up another $50...
<< <i>Wow, Platinum just topped $2300!!! What a crazy streak. Now $350 OVER issue price for the 10th anniversary set. I want to sell, but every time I think about it, it goes up another $50... >>
If your not a collector set the price you need and sell. If you can do it on the BST forum without fees all the better....JMO
One additional comment about 2003 Proof Plat sets - I also was a huge fan of this date (and still am). I have been buying them, non-stop, for many years (and selling some as well). But, what is very strange is the number of 2003 Proof Plat sets on the market today. I have received more 2003 Proof Plat sets in the past 2-3 months than ANY other dated Proof Plat set! Explanation? Possibly that collectors and dealers held back this date as a slightly better date and now that Platinum has exploded in value, this date has lost its "premium" entirely. Hence, out they come.
That is very interesting Mitch. It is great to have you on these boards! I guess your experience as a dealer and your willingness to share info gives us all a different perspective on things. It is great to hear information like this. As collectors we are able to track sales and grading figures but we don't have an eye on what goes on inside the dealer market. Thank you!
Doesn't anybody collect these coins because they are sweet coins with low mintages and doesn't really care what they melt for?
Raven,
Some of us feel very lucky to be the holders of such magnificent coins. When I purchased my 1997 $25 Proof APE it had a population of 5/0 and so did my 2004. The coins are superb and will be with me until the day I die. I guess to answer your question, some of us collect these coins because we think they are the most beautiful coins we have ever seen.
<< <i>Wow, Platinum just topped $2300!!! What a crazy streak. Now $350 OVER issue price for the 10th anniversary set. I want to sell, but every time I think about it, it goes up another $50... >>
If your not a collector set the price you need and sell. If you can do it on the BST forum without fees all the better....JMO >>
Don't get me wrong, I am a collector first and foremost. However, I grapple with the idea of selling things like the plats every day. Not because it isn't beautiful, but mostly because it's the only plat I own and I realize I'll never be able to put together a collection of these coins. I'd love to keep it in my collection, and I really hope I am able to. But as a recent college grad I could definitely use the money to pay down debts. I defintitely am trying not to sell though!!
<< <i> Reading this thread lately has depressed me.....
Doesn't anybody collect these coins because they are sweet coins with low mintages and doesn't really care what they melt for?
Raven,
Some of us feel very lucky to be the holders of such magnificent coins. When I purchased my 1997 $25 Proof APE it had a population of 5/0 and so did my 2004. The coins are superb and will be with me until the day I die. I guess to answer your question, some of us collect these coins because we think they are the most beautiful coins we have ever seen. >>
Like many I am a collector who is always looking to fund my collecting with profits from dealing/flipping. Last 2 years have been great for APEs and again like many I have duplicates of some issues such as the 2005 Proofs, 2006-W/2007-W Unc and proofs. I've sold 40K in Platinum in last 2 weeks and will likely sell more in next 1-2 weeks. I'm weeding out the obvious flawed coins and they are heading to melting pot. Yes they are being melted as they are being handed in raw without any packaging. It feels very odd to hold a handful of proof APEs with no protection for the coins.
One major arguement against 'modern crap' has always been that while mintages were low...... so was the attrition rate. Now that is no longer the case. I would say that if Platinum stays above $2000 for a few more months we'll see 10-25% of 2006 and 2007 issues destroyed. If it hits $2500 then who knows how much attrition there will be............
Same thing for the 2005 Gold Anniversary sets. How many 20th anniversary regular proofs and MS coins will disappear?? Certainly with gold at $1000 there will be far less than 10,000 complete sets remaining before too long............
One major argument against 'modern crap' has always been that while mintages were low so was the attrition rate. Now that is no longer the case. I would say that if Platinum stays above $2000 for a few more months we'll see 10-25% of 2006 and 2007 issues destroyed. If it hits $2500 then who knows how much attrition there will be............
Wow! That's great information, thank you!
This is a great time to streamline our collections. With Platinum prices spiking hard, this is a great opportunity to cash in on extras to help pay for our 2008 dated issues...
I realized that we will never know the true numbers of how many are actually left after this melt of 2008... .........but my question is how long after this melt will we see an actual reflection in the prices of the coins not going to melt????
Tough question but I'd guess it may be a year or more after the melting stops. Possible catalysts would include Red book publication of recent low mintages and articles in major publications discussing attrition of coins from already low initial mintages.
Next time I sell Platinum Eagles I'll try to take a picture of Platinum proofs sitting naked in the palm of my hand. It may take visual proof to convince some that attrition is now a real factor to consider in Gold and Platinum Eagles.
Next time I sell Platinum Eagles I'll try to take a picture of Platinum proofs sitting naked in the palm of my hand. It may take visual proof to convince some that attrition is now a real factor to consider in Gold and Platinum Eagles.
It would be great if we could get a guesstimate of how many APEs these melting companies deal with in average (I mean how common is it for them to deal with APEs). I wish I was a fly on the wall...
<< <i>Seems like platinum coins were being sold left and right by advance collectors as well as coin dealers to bullion dealers. >>
FOR DUPLICATES YES.....VERY MUCH SO. MY PERSONAL BASE SETS WILL SURVIVE IN HAND LORD WILLING. NO MATTER HOW HIGH MATERIALS GO! BUT HEAVEN HELP THE COINS I HOLD HALF A DOZEN OF IF PRICES GET TO FAR OUT OF HAND.
<< <i>Seems like platinum coins were being sold left and right by advance collectors as well as coin dealers to bullion dealers. >>
In my case I will use profits from sale of 2006/7 duplicates to purchase additional APEs my collection is missing and to fund 2008 purchases.
I made a large and lucky bet on all eagles in 2006 and 2007. Profits will fund my collecting in the future and if my sale of duplicates has a positive effect in reducing the float then all the better. When sold for bullion price I make sure all coins including proofs go naked and marked so they won't return to collectors market.
<< <i>Seems like platinum coins were being sold left and right by advance collectors as well as coin dealers to bullion dealers. >>
In my case I will use profits from sale of 2006/7 duplicates to purchase additional APEs my collection is missing and to fund 2008 purchases.
I made a large and lucky bet on all eagles in 2006 and 2007. Profits will fund my collecting in the future and if my sale of duplicates has a positive effect in reducing the float then all the better. When sold for bullion price I make sure all coins including proofs go naked and marked so they won't return to collectors market. >>
<< <i>Seems like platinum coins were being sold left and right by advance collectors as well as coin dealers to bullion dealers. >>
In my case I will use profits from sale of 2006/7 duplicates to purchase additional APEs my collection is missing and to fund 2008 purchases.
I made a large and lucky bet on all eagles in 2006 and 2007. Profits will fund my collecting in the future and if my sale of duplicates has a positive effect in reducing the float then all the better. When sold for bullion price I make sure all coins including proofs go naked and marked so they won't return to collectors market. >>
What do you mean naked and marked? >>
There was a time when metals were high that dealer would only give you spot for an item even if it were UNC. Many collectors made sure the dealers didn't make an extra profit by decreasing the value of the coin to spot so they handle it, dropped it, or scratched it.
In other words your paying melt, that's what your going to get.
<< <i>Seems like platinum coins were being sold left and right by advance collectors as well as coin dealers to bullion dealers. >>
In my case I will use profits from sale of 2006/7 duplicates to purchase additional APEs my collection is missing and to fund 2008 purchases.
I made a large and lucky bet on all eagles in 2006 and 2007. Profits will fund my collecting in the future and if my sale of duplicates has a positive effect in reducing the float then all the better. When sold for bullion price I make sure all coins including proofs go naked and marked so they won't return to collectors market. >>
What do you mean naked and marked? >>
Naked........no packaging and no clear plastic holder. Marked..........scratched, rubbed, dented, gouged, etc.
If you have a handful of proof coins all it takes is a moment or two rubbing them against each other to change a 69 coin into a 67 or less.
<< <i> In my case I will use profits from sale of 2006/7 duplicates to purchase additional APEs my collection is missing and to fund 2008 purchases.
I made a large and lucky bet on all eagles in 2006 and 2007. Profits will fund my collecting in the future and if my sale of duplicates has a positive effect in reducing the float then all the better. When sold for bullion price I make sure all coins including proofs go naked and marked so they won't return to collectors market. >>
Better yet, burn all the empty boxes and inform PCGS which serial numbers have been discarded and sold to bullion dealers.
If Platinum shoots up to $3500/oz, the survival rate of 06-W, 07-W 1ozers will be less than 100 coins.
Naked........no packaging and no clear plastic holder. Marked..........scratched, rubbed, dented, gouged, etc.
If you have a handful of proof coins all it takes is a moment or two rubbing them against each other to change a 69 coin into a 67 or less. >>
In my opinion, thats a terrible thing to do to a coin. If you sold an UNC for spot price, it obviously was at a price level you could accept. WHY would you go and ruin a perfectly good coin? We are supposed to be conservators of these coins, holding them for future generations to enjoy and appreciate. What if all of the Saints that traded as bullion were puprosely scrated and altered? There would be any good examples left for us to enjoy.
In my opinion, anyone who purposely destrioys a coin because they only got spot for it should be ashamed of themselves. If you didn't like the spot price, then don't sell it.
To destroy the coin is just immature and childish.
There was a time when metals were high that dealer would only give you spot for an item even if it were UNC. Many collectors made sure the dealers didn't make an extra profit by decreasing the value of the coin to spot so they handle it, dropped it, or scratched it.
In other words your paying melt, that's what your going to get. >>
In my opinion, thats a terrible thing to do to a coin. If you sold an UNC for spot price, it obviously was at a price level you could accept. WHY would you go and ruin a perfectly good coin? We are supposed to be conservators of these coins, holding them for future generations to enjoy and appreciate. What if all of the Saints that traded as bullion were puprosely scratched and altered? There would be any good examples left for us to enjoy.
In my opinion, anyone who purposely destrioys a coin because they only got spot for it should be ashamed of themselves. If you didn't like the spot price, then don't sell it.
To destroy the coin is just immature and childish.
There was a time when metals were high that dealer would only give you spot for an item even if it were UNC. Many collectors made sure the dealers didn't make an extra profit by decreasing the value of the coin to spot so they handle it, dropped it, or scratched it.
In other words your paying melt, that's what your going to get. >>
In my opinion, thats a terrible thing to do to a coin. If you sold an UNC for spot price, it obviously was at a price level you could accept. WHY would you go and ruin a perfectly good coin? We are supposed to be conservators of these coins, holding them for future generations to enjoy and appreciate. What if all of the Saints that traded as bullion were puprosely scratched and altered? There would be any good examples left for us to enjoy.
In my opinion, anyone who purposely destrioys a coin because they only got spot for it should be ashamed of themselves. If you didn't like the spot price, then don't sell it.
To destroy the coin is just immature and childish. >>
Hey don't shoot the messager...just told the guy what it is. IMO if you own it you can put it in a neckless for all I care. Many rare coins have been made into jewelry, how do you fell about that? This isn't a sin it happens.
Hey don't shoot the messager...just told the guy what it is. IMO if you own it you can put it in a neckless for all I care. Many rare coins have been made into jewelry, how do you fell about that? This isn't a sin it happens. >>
Collectible coins do not belong in jewelry as a bauble on some womens neck. Presumably put there by a coin collector only to appease her when she complains about his "habit".
I liked the spot price and I was pleased to receive it. As the coins were valued as bullion I could have beat them with a hammer and received the same price. Attrition of coins is a fact of life. Whether worn in commerce, lost in fires or intentionally defaced populations decline with time. IMO when the bullion value of a coin equals its collector price you are doing everyone a favor by removing it from the market. No animals were injured in scraping certain 2006 and 2007 Platinums. However slightly the value of surviving populations have been helped by removing surplus from market. No one can continue to doubt that coins are actually off market and published mintages are high.
Many if not most great key dates had the majority of the issue destroyed one way or the other. Well if 50 percent end up AU instead of MS-69 then the coins will have effective pops of 2000 to 8000 coins in most cases. Rare enough to be a killer type set in the out years. Its no different than circulating new issues every year when they come out of the mint. The mint does it by the billions.
<< <i>I liked the spot price and I was pleased to receive it. As the coins were valued as bullion I could have beat them with a hammer and received the same price. Attrition of coins is a fact of life. Whether worn in commerece, lost in fires or intentionally defaced populations decline with time. IMO when the bullion value of a coin equals its collector price you are doing everyone a favor by removing it from the market. No animals were injured in scraping certain 2006 and 2007 Platinums. However slightly the value of surviving populations have been helped by removing surplus from market. No one can continue to doubt that coins are actually off market and published mintages are high. >>
So you're saying that you are doing future generations of collectors a big favor by destroying the items that they will collect??? Doesn't make any sense to me. There will be less of them and so they have to pay more to enjoy them. hmmm.......
I have recently sold (4) 1 oz PCGS MS 69 platinum coins to kitco. I felt bad about it. But I didn't remove them from their slabs. I was hoping on the outside chance that they may survive the melt off and end up in some investors portfolio, protected. Perhaps one day they will resurface and be enjoyed by a collector again. The melt price represented a very good profit for me. I had no feelings that i wanted to deface the coin because i was only offered melt.
I am actually thrilled to have somebody that has some insight on what's going come forth and share this information with us. We know this has been going on for a while now and we know where this stuff is ending up. It is just great to know...
Rarity makes for Great Sets. I would like to see these coins become the rarest and greatest type set issued in about half of the US mints history and THE SUPER SET for high end modern collectors. Troubled infancy produces great kings when they grow up. Common circulation of the changing reverse plats is great news because it lowers the populations!
Those that survive even the so called common dates will be serious coins in 10 years.
<< <i>I liked the spot price and I was pleased to receive it. As the coins were valued as bullion I could have beat them with a hammer and received the same price. Attrition of coins is a fact of life. Whether worn in commerece, lost in fires or intentionally defaced populations decline with time. IMO when the bullion value of a coin equals its collector price you are doing everyone a favor by removing it from the market. No animals were injured in scraping certain 2006 and 2007 Platinums. However slightly the value of surviving populations have been helped by removing surplus from market. No one can continue to doubt that coins are actually off market and published mintages are high. >>
So you're saying that you are doing future generations of collectors a big favor by destroying the items that they will collect??? Doesn't make any sense to me. There will be less of them and so they have to pay more to enjoy them. hmmm.......
I have recently sold (4) 1 oz PCGS MS 69 platinum coins to kitco. I felt bad about it. But I didn't remove them from their slabs. I was hoping on the outside chance that they may survive the melt off and end up in some investors portfolio, protected. Perhaps one day they will resurface and be enjoyed by a collector again. The melt price represented a very good profit for me. I had no feelings that i wanted to deface the coin because i was only offered melt. >>
Again......... once a coins value as scrap is the same as its value to a collector then its better off being scraped. There is some real value for all of us to know some of these coins are truely off the market. I've read so many threads arguing about whether coins ever actually get melted. In the case of some recent platinum issues I can now say yes they do. The loss of a few coins today benefits all remaining tomorrow. The best way to provide protection for all bullion based coins is to assure they carry a premium over melt. Only then can you feel confident they will be preserved. I do not feel any responsibility to needlessly preserve something so it will be easier to find and less expensive in the future.
<< <i>I liked the spot price and I was pleased to receive it. As the coins were valued as bullion I could have beat them with a hammer and received the same price. Attrition of coins is a fact of life. Whether worn in commerece, lost in fires or intentionally defaced populations decline with time. IMO when the bullion value of a coin equals its collector price you are doing everyone a favor by removing it from the market. No animals were injured in scraping certain 2006 and 2007 Platinums. However slightly the value of surviving populations have been helped by removing surplus from market. No one can continue to doubt that coins are actually off market and published mintages are high. >>
So you're saying that you are doing future generations of collectors a big favor by destroying the items that they will collect??? Doesn't make any sense to me. There will be less of them and so they have to pay more to enjoy them. hmmm.......
I have recently sold (4) 1 oz PCGS MS 69 platinum coins to kitco. I felt bad about it. But I didn't remove them from their slabs. I was hoping on the outside chance that they may survive the melt off and end up in some investors portfolio, protected. Perhaps one day they will resurface and be enjoyed by a collector again. The melt price represented a very good profit for me. I had no feelings that i wanted to deface the coin because i was only offered melt. >>
Again......... once a coins value as scrap is the same as its value to a collector then its better off being scraped. I do not feel any responsibility to needlessly preserve something so it will be easier to find and less expensive in the future. >>
There is a big difference between "needlessly preserving" something and "purposely destroying" something. You obviously are a speculator and not a collector.
Based on what you have said about needlessly preserving something leads me to believe that you plan to destroy every coin you have because you don't feel any responsibility to have your coins easier to find and less expensive in the future for other coin collectors. I have a feeling thats not true.
I also don't agree with the statement that when a coins scrap value is the same as its value to a collector then it is better off being scrapped. There is no logic to that. All you are seeing is that a bubble in the precious metals value is pushing the inherent metal value of the coin to an equal or greater level than a collector would pay. That does not mean the coin needs to be scrapped. It means that there is a temporary bubble and that collectors can't afford the metal value of the coin. That is no reason to purposely deface it. A collector would want to try and protect it from the smelter by leaving it in its slab and hoping an investor gets it.
Are you only in this hobby to make money or do you actually like the coins you hold? We have a responsibility here to ensure there are examples for future generations.
The mintages of these items already ensure their rarity. Why would you want to destroy them?
I don't know if circulating a large percentage of the coins is the same thing as destroying them. I sent some on their way to kitco after spending a little time with about 50 clad quaters in a mason jar. The coins were ok just circulated. They still were presidential and legislative plats.
I don't plan to sell a full set of Unc-w quarters, proof quarters, unc-w halves and proof halves. They will go on to the future generations even if the metal hits $5000 and oz. I am a true collector but bringing a more typical grade distribution to the plats not just having everything grade 69 or better is a very good thing in my view.
I want to look in a RED BOOK in 20 years and see AU-55, MS-60, MS-63, MS-65, MS67, MS69 and MS-70. Grade distribution like all the classic sets do.
<< <i>I liked the spot price and I was pleased to receive it. As the coins were valued as bullion I could have beat them with a hammer and received the same price. Attrition of coins is a fact of life. Whether worn in commerece, lost in fires or intentionally defaced populations decline with time. IMO when the bullion value of a coin equals its collector price you are doing everyone a favor by removing it from the market. No animals were injured in scraping certain 2006 and 2007 Platinums. However slightly the value of surviving populations have been helped by removing surplus from market. No one can continue to doubt that coins are actually off market and published mintages are high. >>
So you're saying that you are doing future generations of collectors a big favor by destroying the items that they will collect??? Doesn't make any sense to me. There will be less of them and so they have to pay more to enjoy them. hmmm.......
I have recently sold (4) 1 oz PCGS MS 69 platinum coins to kitco. I felt bad about it. But I didn't remove them from their slabs. I was hoping on the outside chance that they may survive the melt off and end up in some investors portfolio, protected. Perhaps one day they will resurface and be enjoyed by a collector again. The melt price represented a very good profit for me. I had no feelings that i wanted to deface the coin because i was only offered melt. >>
Again......... once a coins value as scrap is the same as its value to a collector then its better off being scraped. I do not feel any responsibility to needlessly preserve something so it will be easier to find and less expensive in the future. >>
There is a big difference between "needlessly preserving" something and "purposely destroying" something. You obviously are a speculator and not a collector.
Based on what you have said about needlessly preserving something leads me to believe that you plan to destroy every coin you have because you don't feel any responsibility to have your coins easier to find and less expensive in the future for other coin collectors. I have a feeling thats not true.
I also don't agree with the statement that when a coins scrap value is the same as its value to a collector then it is better off being scrapped. There is no logic to that. All you are seeing is that a bubble in the precious metals value is pushing the inherent metal value of the coin to an equal or greater level than a collector would pay. That does not mean the coin needs to be scrapped. It means that there is a temporary bubble and that collectors can't afford the metal value of the coin. That is no reason to purposely deface it. A collector would want to try and protect it from the smelter by leaving it in its slab and hoping an investor gets it.
Are you only in this hobby to make money or do you actually like the coins you hold? We have a responsibility here to ensure there are examples for future generations.
The mintages of these items already ensure their rarity. Why would you want to destroy them? >>
Sending coins to Kitco and hoping they will survive intact is like the farmer sending some of his cows to market hoping someone will think they are cute and they won't be slaughtered.
<< <i>I liked the spot price and I was pleased to receive it. As the coins were valued as bullion I could have beat them with a hammer and received the same price. Attrition of coins is a fact of life. Whether worn in commerece, lost in fires or intentionally defaced populations decline with time. IMO when the bullion value of a coin equals its collector price you are doing everyone a favor by removing it from the market. No animals were injured in scraping certain 2006 and 2007 Platinums. However slightly the value of surviving populations have been helped by removing surplus from market. No one can continue to doubt that coins are actually off market and published mintages are high. >>
So you're saying that you are doing future generations of collectors a big favor by destroying the items that they will collect??? Doesn't make any sense to me. There will be less of them and so they have to pay more to enjoy them. hmmm.......
I have recently sold (4) 1 oz PCGS MS 69 platinum coins to kitco. I felt bad about it. But I didn't remove them from their slabs. I was hoping on the outside chance that they may survive the melt off and end up in some investors portfolio, protected. Perhaps one day they will resurface and be enjoyed by a collector again. The melt price represented a very good profit for me. I had no feelings that i wanted to deface the coin because i was only offered melt. >>
Again......... once a coins value as scrap is the same as its value to a collector then its better off being scraped. I do not feel any responsibility to needlessly preserve something so it will be easier to find and less expensive in the future. >>
There is a big difference between "needlessly preserving" something and "purposely destroying" something. You obviously are a speculator and not a collector.
Based on what you have said about needlessly preserving something leads me to believe that you plan to destroy every coin you have because you don't feel any responsibility to have your coins easier to find and less expensive in the future for other coin collectors. I have a feeling thats not true.
I also don't agree with the statement that when a coins scrap value is the same as its value to a collector then it is better off being scrapped. There is no logic to that. All you are seeing is that a bubble in the precious metals value is pushing the inherent metal value of the coin to an equal or greater level than a collector would pay. That does not mean the coin needs to be scrapped. It means that there is a temporary bubble and that collectors can't afford the metal value of the coin. That is no reason to purposely deface it. A collector would want to try and protect it from the smelter by leaving it in its slab and hoping an investor gets it.
Are you only in this hobby to make money or do you actually like the coins you hold? We have a responsibility here to ensure there are examples for future generations.
The mintages of these items already ensure their rarity. Why would you want to destroy them? >>
Sending coins to Kitco and hoping they will survive intact is like the farmer sending of cows his to market hoping someone will think they are cute and they won't be slaughtered. >>
I guess we're just two different kinds of people. I couldn't puposely scratch or deface a collectible coin, ever. I may sell to a bullion dealer who then in turn would most likely sell to a bullion investor. But at least i know that the coin I sent in was protected and not purposely defaced.
<< <i>I don't know if circulating a large percentage of the coins is the same thing as destroying them. I sent some on their way to kitco after spending a little time with about 50 clad quaters in a mason jar. The coins were ok just circulated. They still were presidential and legislative plats.
I don't plan to sell a full set of Unc-w quarters, proof quarters, unc-w halves and proof halves. They will go on to the future generations even if the metal hits $5000 and oz. I am a true collector but bringing a more typical grade distribution to the plats not just having everything grade 69 or better is a very good thing in my view.
I want to look in a RED BOOK in 20 years and see AU-55, MS-60, MS-63, MS-65, MS67, MS69 and MS-70. Grade distribution like all the classic sets do. >>
Honestly Eric, didn't you at least feel some remorse when you took those near perfect examples of historically low mintage coins and swilled them around in a jar with 50 clad quarters knowing full well that the fields would be trashed when you were done?
I guess we have a new definition for circulating coinage. It now means putting an uncirculated coin in a jar with 50 clad quarters and moving the jar in a circular motion. I always thought that circulating coinage meant that it was used for transactions of commerce.
Plats will never be circulating coinage in the classic sense. They were never meant to circulate. All that you have created with the jar are damaged coins.
I'm not here to judge. I'm just a little disappointed in some of the actions of fellow collectors. JMHO
There seems to be an unstated assumption that the "great melt of 2008" is an anomaly, which will cease when the platinum bubble bursts and the price returns to "normal."
What if it doesn't? What if the price of platinum goes higher and stays there?
It's entirely possible that demand from emerging Asian economies will sustain high platinum prices, regardless of whether the short-term electricity problems in the South African mines persist. If platinum prices stay high, the coin melts could continue for the indefinite future.
About a year's worth of current platinum consumption is tied up in APEs. Melting them could ease the supply crunch for some time to come. By the time the melts taper off, the remaining APEs could be held mostly by bullion hoarders and hardcore, well-heeled collectors. At that point, estimating the number of survivors for each date and mintmark would be difficult if not impossible.
There seems to be an unstated assumption that the "great melt of 2008" is an anomaly, which will cease when the platinum bubble bursts and the price returns to "normal."
I think Platinum American Eagles have been melted long before 2008 and will continue to melt after prices normalize if they ever do go back to what used to be a reasonable level three months ago. The ongoing situation has done nothing but bring the issue to light; but, I believe that common dates have been melted for a while now.
About a year's worth of current platinum consumption is tied up in APEs. Melting them could ease the supply crunch for some time to come. By the time the melts taper off, the remaining APEs could be held mostly by bullion hoarders and hardcore, well-heeled collectors. At that point, estimating the number of survivors for each date and mintmark would be difficult if not impossible.
Wow. After all the hype about desirability, in only about a year, this is what it has come down to:
We have to destroy these coins in order to save them. (Or just mangle them.)
It's Coinhog and 2manycoins who, ironic handles and all, understand my sentiment. I finished selling off these off not too long ago, always at a profit, and I have to be grateful for having learned about the opportunity here... but I sure learned a lot about ultramodern speculation as well, and it ain't so pretty from a collecting point of view.
The mint produces more of everything than there is serious collector base to absorb. The flippers/dealers/bullion buyers/etc drive the mintages above base line collector base numbers and produce an inventory overhang in the market that persists for years. The metals market is reducing the "over hang" in the market. If the bullion value strips the extra coins and just leaves the devoted collectors with sets so be it.
The 1927D Saints are only great because you can't go out and by 10,000 of them.
<< <i>Wow. After all the hype about desirability, in only about a year, this is what it has come down to:
We have to destroy these coins in order to save them. (Or just mangle them.)
It's Coinhog and 2manycoins who, ironic handles and all, understand my sentiment. I finished selling off these off not too long ago, always at a profit, and I have to be grateful for having learned about the opportunity here... but I sure learned a lot about ultramodern speculation as well, and it ain't so pretty from a collecting point of view. >>
I don't understand how anyone who claims to be a coin collector could purposely mangle, alter, circulate, deface, etc,etc, etc, any coin whose sole purpose is to be " the premier collectable offering from the US Mint" and also the pinnacle of the coiners art. These plats with the changing reverse are a true renaissance of coinage in america today. We have all had enough of the dead presidents and continually complain about the lack of acceptable designs on our commemorative coins.
These plats arguably have the best designs of any coins ever offered by the mint. Its a crying shame that sometimes they get "altered" when shipped to a bullion dealer. Yes kitco is a bullion dealer. There are no guarantees that these will be melted. there is as good a chance that they will be resold and sit in an investors bank box.
Why can't we all just take a step back on this subject for a minute? The idea of this thread since its creation was to document trends in modern coinage. Whether is good or bad to melt, scratch, ding and dent coins is not a topic for this thread and neither are the moral implications of it.
The main focus of this thread is to document history. The melting of these coins is happening, we have been able to document that as of recently. The sales of these coins as mere bullion is happening and we have been able to document that too. As a collector of these beautiful coins, I personally dedicate myself to study their grading and sales trends. To hear from dealers, collectors, investors and speculators about what's the latest trend is absolutely great.
Silvertowne was interviewed regarding the meltdown of thousands of coins recently. That interview ended up on the first page of CW. Why? Not because of the moral implications of it but because of the historical value of that piece of information.
I would rather seat here and listen to what people have to say and learn from it than pass judgment on everything that doesn't go well with me and watch people step back and stop talking in fear to be judged publicly. To those who have contributed to this thread and have come forth with valuable information, thank you!
Guys - I have a customer who uses Proof $100 1997-W Platinum as pocket pieces and gives them to business associates and/or friends to do the same. The first time I delivered coins to him, I cracked them out of PR69DC holders and "refused" to drop the coins in his hand. I carefully placed them in flips and asked him to reconsider. He laughed. It is now a year or two later and I have delivered more coins a few different times. I know the coins are being "destroyed" numismatically - but, that is his right. He is enjoying them greatly and is teaching folks about these great collectibles in a round about way every time they see the coins for the first time.
Should I have refused to sell this gentleman coins under these circumstances? Should I reconsider the Proof Ike Dollar I recently cracked out of a Proof set to use as my pocket piece (on a slightly lesser budget than my $100 Proof Platinum customer)?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
I have seen the pricing on the 2004 $50 NGC UC70 drop over the year. Where are you on buying that denomination?
Miles
Another thing comes to mind, when did the meltdown start for Platinum Eagles?
I've heard of instances of proof APEs being sent to the smelter even several years ago, when prices were much lower. Platinum coins were moving too slowly for dealers to tie up a lot of money in inventory. Now at over $2,200 per ounce, early "common date" platinum proof sets are probably disappearing at a much faster rate than before.
Years from now, the platinum eagle melts of 2008 may be compared with the Morgan dollar melts of the early 20th century.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Wondercoin
Doesn't anybody collect these coins because they are sweet coins with low mintages and doesn't really care what they melt for?
That's a complex question and it depends on where you are right now and what your plans are for your Platinum holdings. If you have held a PR69 for a long time and don't consider yourself a collector then this price spike might be your way out. For example, if you purchased a 1997 $25 Platinum Proof Eagle from the mint when it was first offered in 1997 then you paid $199.00 for it originally. At today's prices a 1997 $25 Platinum Proof is worth $574.50 (based on spot price from Kitco at $2,298 on March 4th @ 7:32 AM EST). That's a very nice profit. If you wanted to, you can sell now and cash in on your investment.
On the other hand, if you enjoy the coins you have, why sell? If spot dropped tomorrow back to $1,275 as it used to be a few months ago, that 1997 $25 Platinum Proof will be worth $318.75. That's a $255.75 profit you missed out.
What I mean is, with Platinum prices spiking the way they are, this is the best time to let any unwanted Platinum Eagle holdings go. There are only three possibilities for Platinum in the future (as with any other precious metal:
1. Price drops (and if you hold for too long, you loose revenue)
2. Price spikes even more (after you let go and you feel like you missed out)
3. Price stays the same
I want to sell, but every time I think about it, it goes up another $50...
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
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<< <i>Wow, Platinum just topped $2300!!! What a crazy streak. Now $350 OVER issue price for the 10th anniversary set.
I want to sell, but every time I think about it, it goes up another $50... >>
If your not a collector set the price you need and sell. If you can do it on the BST forum without fees all the better....JMO
That is very interesting Mitch. It is great to have you on these boards! I guess your experience as a dealer and your willingness to share info gives us all a different perspective on things. It is great to hear information like this. As collectors we are able to track sales and grading figures but we don't have an eye on what goes on inside the dealer market. Thank you!
Doesn't anybody collect these coins because they are sweet coins with low mintages and doesn't really care what they melt for?
Raven,
Some of us feel very lucky to be the holders of such magnificent coins. When I purchased my 1997 $25 Proof APE it had a population of 5/0 and so did my 2004. The coins are superb and will be with me until the day I die. I guess to answer your question, some of us collect these coins because we think they are the most beautiful coins we have ever seen.
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, Platinum just topped $2300!!! What a crazy streak. Now $350 OVER issue price for the 10th anniversary set.
I want to sell, but every time I think about it, it goes up another $50... >>
If your not a collector set the price you need and sell. If you can do it on the BST forum without fees all the better....JMO >>
Don't get me wrong, I am a collector first and foremost. However, I grapple with the idea of selling things like the plats every day. Not because it isn't beautiful,
but mostly because it's the only plat I own and I realize I'll never be able to put together a collection of these coins. I'd love to keep it in
my collection, and I really hope I am able to. But as a recent college grad I could definitely use the money to pay down debts. I defintitely am
trying not to sell though!!
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
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<< <i> Reading this thread lately has depressed me.....
Doesn't anybody collect these coins because they are sweet coins with low mintages and doesn't really care what they melt for?
Raven,
Some of us feel very lucky to be the holders of such magnificent coins. When I purchased my 1997 $25 Proof APE it had a population of 5/0 and so did my 2004. The coins are superb and will be with me until the day I die. I guess to answer your question, some of us collect these coins because we think they are the most beautiful coins we have ever seen. >>
Like many I am a collector who is always looking to fund my collecting with profits from dealing/flipping. Last 2 years have been great for APEs and again like many I have duplicates of some issues such as the 2005 Proofs, 2006-W/2007-W Unc and proofs. I've sold 40K in Platinum in last 2 weeks and will likely sell more in next 1-2 weeks. I'm weeding out the obvious flawed coins and they are heading to melting pot. Yes they are being melted as they are being handed in raw without any packaging. It feels very odd to hold a handful of proof APEs with no protection for the coins.
One major arguement against 'modern crap' has always been that while mintages were low...... so was the attrition rate. Now that is no longer the case. I would say that if Platinum stays above $2000 for a few more months we'll see 10-25% of 2006 and 2007 issues destroyed. If it hits $2500 then who knows how much attrition there will be............
Same thing for the 2005 Gold Anniversary sets. How many 20th anniversary regular proofs and MS coins will disappear?? Certainly with gold at $1000 there will be far less than 10,000 complete sets remaining before too long............
Wow! That's great information, thank you!
This is a great time to streamline our collections. With Platinum prices spiking hard, this is a great opportunity to cash in on extras to help pay for our 2008 dated issues...
I realized that we will never know the true numbers of how many are actually left after this melt of 2008...
.........but my question is how long after this melt will we see an actual reflection in the prices of the coins not going to melt????
snman
Possible catalysts would include Red book publication of recent low mintages and articles in major publications discussing attrition of coins from already low initial mintages.
Next time I sell Platinum Eagles I'll try to take a picture of Platinum proofs sitting naked in the palm of my hand.
It may take visual proof to convince some that attrition is now a real factor to consider in Gold and Platinum Eagles.
It may take visual proof to convince some that attrition is now a real factor to consider in Gold and Platinum Eagles.
It would be great if we could get a guesstimate of how many APEs these melting companies deal with in average (I mean how common is it for them to deal with APEs). I wish I was a fly on the wall...
<< <i>Seems like platinum coins were being sold left and right by advance collectors as well as coin dealers to bullion dealers. >>
FOR DUPLICATES YES.....VERY MUCH SO. MY PERSONAL BASE SETS WILL SURVIVE IN HAND LORD WILLING. NO MATTER HOW HIGH MATERIALS GO! BUT HEAVEN HELP THE COINS I HOLD HALF A DOZEN OF IF PRICES GET TO FAR OUT OF HAND.
<< <i>Seems like platinum coins were being sold left and right by advance collectors as well as coin dealers to bullion dealers. >>
In my case I will use profits from sale of 2006/7 duplicates to purchase additional APEs my collection is missing and to fund 2008 purchases.
I made a large and lucky bet on all eagles in 2006 and 2007. Profits will fund my collecting in the future and if my sale of duplicates has a positive effect in reducing the float then all the better. When sold for bullion price I make sure all coins including proofs go naked and marked so they won't return to collectors market.
<< <i>
<< <i>Seems like platinum coins were being sold left and right by advance collectors as well as coin dealers to bullion dealers. >>
In my case I will use profits from sale of 2006/7 duplicates to purchase additional APEs my collection is missing and to fund 2008 purchases.
I made a large and lucky bet on all eagles in 2006 and 2007. Profits will fund my collecting in the future and if my sale of duplicates has a positive effect in reducing the float then all the better. When sold for bullion price I make sure all coins including proofs go naked and marked so they won't return to collectors market. >>
What do you mean naked and marked?
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Seems like platinum coins were being sold left and right by advance collectors as well as coin dealers to bullion dealers. >>
In my case I will use profits from sale of 2006/7 duplicates to purchase additional APEs my collection is missing and to fund 2008 purchases.
I made a large and lucky bet on all eagles in 2006 and 2007. Profits will fund my collecting in the future and if my sale of duplicates has a positive effect in reducing the float then all the better. When sold for bullion price I make sure all coins including proofs go naked and marked so they won't return to collectors market. >>
What do you mean naked and marked? >>
There was a time when metals were high that dealer would only give you spot for an item even if it were UNC. Many collectors made sure the dealers didn't make an extra profit by decreasing the value of the coin to spot so they handle it, dropped it, or scratched it.
In other words your paying melt, that's what your going to get.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Seems like platinum coins were being sold left and right by advance collectors as well as coin dealers to bullion dealers. >>
In my case I will use profits from sale of 2006/7 duplicates to purchase additional APEs my collection is missing and to fund 2008 purchases.
I made a large and lucky bet on all eagles in 2006 and 2007. Profits will fund my collecting in the future and if my sale of duplicates has a positive effect in reducing the float then all the better. When sold for bullion price I make sure all coins including proofs go naked and marked so they won't return to collectors market. >>
What do you mean naked and marked? >>
Naked........no packaging and no clear plastic holder.
Marked..........scratched, rubbed, dented, gouged, etc.
If you have a handful of proof coins all it takes is a moment or two rubbing them against each other to change a 69 coin into a 67 or less.
<< <i>
In my case I will use profits from sale of 2006/7 duplicates to purchase additional APEs my collection is missing and to fund 2008 purchases.
I made a large and lucky bet on all eagles in 2006 and 2007. Profits will fund my collecting in the future and if my sale of duplicates has a positive effect in reducing the float then all the better. When sold for bullion price I make sure all coins including proofs go naked and marked so they won't return to collectors market. >>
Better yet, burn all the empty boxes and inform PCGS which serial numbers have been discarded and sold to bullion dealers.
If Platinum shoots up to $3500/oz, the survival rate of 06-W, 07-W 1ozers will be less than 100 coins.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
What do you mean naked and marked? >>
Naked........no packaging and no clear plastic holder.
Marked..........scratched, rubbed, dented, gouged, etc.
If you have a handful of proof coins all it takes is a moment or two rubbing them against each other to change a 69 coin into a 67 or less. >>
In my opinion, thats a terrible thing to do to a coin. If you sold an UNC for spot price, it obviously was at a price level you could accept. WHY would you go and ruin a perfectly good coin? We are supposed to be conservators of these coins, holding them for future generations to enjoy and appreciate. What if all of the Saints that traded as bullion were puprosely scrated and altered? There would be any good examples left for us to enjoy.
In my opinion, anyone who purposely destrioys a coin because they only got spot for it should be ashamed of themselves. If you didn't like the spot price, then don't sell it.
To destroy the coin is just immature and childish.
<< <i>
There was a time when metals were high that dealer would only give you spot for an item even if it were UNC. Many collectors made sure the dealers didn't make an extra profit by decreasing the value of the coin to spot so they handle it, dropped it, or scratched it.
In other words your paying melt, that's what your going to get. >>
In my opinion, thats a terrible thing to do to a coin. If you sold an UNC for spot price, it obviously was at a price level you could accept. WHY would you go and ruin a perfectly good coin? We are supposed to be conservators of these coins, holding them for future generations to enjoy and appreciate. What if all of the Saints that traded as bullion were puprosely scratched and altered? There would be any good examples left for us to enjoy.
In my opinion, anyone who purposely destrioys a coin because they only got spot for it should be ashamed of themselves. If you didn't like the spot price, then don't sell it.
To destroy the coin is just immature and childish.
<< <i>
<< <i>
There was a time when metals were high that dealer would only give you spot for an item even if it were UNC. Many collectors made sure the dealers didn't make an extra profit by decreasing the value of the coin to spot so they handle it, dropped it, or scratched it.
In other words your paying melt, that's what your going to get. >>
In my opinion, thats a terrible thing to do to a coin. If you sold an UNC for spot price, it obviously was at a price level you could accept. WHY would you go and ruin a perfectly good coin? We are supposed to be conservators of these coins, holding them for future generations to enjoy and appreciate. What if all of the Saints that traded as bullion were puprosely scratched and altered? There would be any good examples left for us to enjoy.
In my opinion, anyone who purposely destrioys a coin because they only got spot for it should be ashamed of themselves. If you didn't like the spot price, then don't sell it.
To destroy the coin is just immature and childish. >>
Hey don't shoot the messager...just told the guy what it is. IMO if you own it you can put it in a neckless for all I care. Many rare coins have been made into jewelry, how do you fell about that? This isn't a sin it happens.
<< <i>
Hey don't shoot the messager...just told the guy what it is. IMO if you own it you can put it in a neckless for all I care. Many rare coins have been made into jewelry, how do you fell about that? This isn't a sin it happens. >>
Collectible coins do not belong in jewelry as a bauble on some womens neck. Presumably put there by a coin collector only to appease her when she complains about his "habit".
As the coins were valued as bullion I could have beat them with a hammer and received the same price.
Attrition of coins is a fact of life.
Whether worn in commerce, lost in fires or intentionally defaced populations decline with time.
IMO when the bullion value of a coin equals its collector price you are doing everyone a favor by removing it from the market.
No animals were injured in scraping certain 2006 and 2007 Platinums.
However slightly the value of surviving populations have been helped by removing surplus from market.
No one can continue to doubt that coins are actually off market and published mintages are high.
<< <i>I liked the spot price and I was pleased to receive it.
As the coins were valued as bullion I could have beat them with a hammer and received the same price.
Attrition of coins is a fact of life.
Whether worn in commerece, lost in fires or intentionally defaced populations decline with time.
IMO when the bullion value of a coin equals its collector price you are doing everyone a favor by removing it from the market.
No animals were injured in scraping certain 2006 and 2007 Platinums.
However slightly the value of surviving populations have been helped by removing surplus from market.
No one can continue to doubt that coins are actually off market and published mintages are high. >>
So you're saying that you are doing future generations of collectors a big favor by destroying the items that they will collect??? Doesn't make any sense to me. There will be less of them and so they have to pay more to enjoy them. hmmm.......
I have recently sold (4) 1 oz PCGS MS 69 platinum coins to kitco. I felt bad about it. But I didn't remove them from their slabs. I was hoping on the outside chance that they may survive the melt off and end up in some investors portfolio, protected. Perhaps one day they will resurface and be enjoyed by a collector again. The melt price represented a very good profit for me. I had no feelings that i wanted to deface the coin because i was only offered melt.
The answer is "yes."
We are supposed to be conservators of these coins, holding them for future generations to enjoy and appreciate.
Part of me agrees with this, but another part of me says that if someone wants conservation, let them pay more than melt.
All we are really seeing is the market compensating for the Mint's overproduction and the flippers' speculative buying in the first place.
Don't blame the sellers of these coins, or the buyers either. The conservators of these coins will be the ultimate winners.
I knew it would happen.
Those that survive even the so called common dates will be serious coins in 10 years.
<< <i>
<< <i>I liked the spot price and I was pleased to receive it.
As the coins were valued as bullion I could have beat them with a hammer and received the same price.
Attrition of coins is a fact of life.
Whether worn in commerece, lost in fires or intentionally defaced populations decline with time.
IMO when the bullion value of a coin equals its collector price you are doing everyone a favor by removing it from the market.
No animals were injured in scraping certain 2006 and 2007 Platinums.
However slightly the value of surviving populations have been helped by removing surplus from market.
No one can continue to doubt that coins are actually off market and published mintages are high. >>
So you're saying that you are doing future generations of collectors a big favor by destroying the items that they will collect??? Doesn't make any sense to me. There will be less of them and so they have to pay more to enjoy them. hmmm.......
I have recently sold (4) 1 oz PCGS MS 69 platinum coins to kitco. I felt bad about it. But I didn't remove them from their slabs. I was hoping on the outside chance that they may survive the melt off and end up in some investors portfolio, protected. Perhaps one day they will resurface and be enjoyed by a collector again. The melt price represented a very good profit for me. I had no feelings that i wanted to deface the coin because i was only offered melt. >>
Again......... once a coins value as scrap is the same as its value to a collector then its better off being scraped.
There is some real value for all of us to know some of these coins are truely off the market.
I've read so many threads arguing about whether coins ever actually get melted.
In the case of some recent platinum issues I can now say yes they do.
The loss of a few coins today benefits all remaining tomorrow.
The best way to provide protection for all bullion based coins is to assure they carry a premium over melt.
Only then can you feel confident they will be preserved.
I do not feel any responsibility to needlessly preserve something so it will be easier to find and less expensive in the future.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I liked the spot price and I was pleased to receive it.
As the coins were valued as bullion I could have beat them with a hammer and received the same price.
Attrition of coins is a fact of life.
Whether worn in commerece, lost in fires or intentionally defaced populations decline with time.
IMO when the bullion value of a coin equals its collector price you are doing everyone a favor by removing it from the market.
No animals were injured in scraping certain 2006 and 2007 Platinums.
However slightly the value of surviving populations have been helped by removing surplus from market.
No one can continue to doubt that coins are actually off market and published mintages are high. >>
So you're saying that you are doing future generations of collectors a big favor by destroying the items that they will collect??? Doesn't make any sense to me. There will be less of them and so they have to pay more to enjoy them. hmmm.......
I have recently sold (4) 1 oz PCGS MS 69 platinum coins to kitco. I felt bad about it. But I didn't remove them from their slabs. I was hoping on the outside chance that they may survive the melt off and end up in some investors portfolio, protected. Perhaps one day they will resurface and be enjoyed by a collector again. The melt price represented a very good profit for me. I had no feelings that i wanted to deface the coin because i was only offered melt. >>
Again......... once a coins value as scrap is the same as its value to a collector then its better off being scraped.
I do not feel any responsibility to needlessly preserve something so it will be easier to find and less expensive in the future. >>
There is a big difference between "needlessly preserving" something and "purposely destroying" something. You obviously are a speculator and not a collector.
Based on what you have said about needlessly preserving something leads me to believe that you plan to destroy every coin you have because you don't feel any responsibility to have your coins easier to find and less expensive in the future for other coin collectors. I have a feeling thats not true.
I also don't agree with the statement that when a coins scrap value is the same as its value to a collector then it is better off being scrapped. There is no logic to that. All you are seeing is that a bubble in the precious metals value is pushing the inherent metal value of the coin to an equal or greater level than a collector would pay. That does not mean the coin needs to be scrapped. It means that there is a temporary bubble and that collectors can't afford the metal value of the coin. That is no reason to purposely deface it. A collector would want to try and protect it from the smelter by leaving it in its slab and hoping an investor gets it.
Are you only in this hobby to make money or do you actually like the coins you hold? We have a responsibility here to ensure there are examples for future generations.
The mintages of these items already ensure their rarity. Why would you want to destroy them?
I don't plan to sell a full set of Unc-w quarters, proof quarters, unc-w halves and proof halves. They will go on to the future generations even if the metal hits $5000 and oz. I am a true collector but bringing a more typical grade distribution to the plats not just having everything grade 69 or better is a very good thing in my view.
I want to look in a RED BOOK in 20 years and see AU-55, MS-60, MS-63, MS-65, MS67, MS69 and MS-70.
Grade distribution like all the classic sets do.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I liked the spot price and I was pleased to receive it.
As the coins were valued as bullion I could have beat them with a hammer and received the same price.
Attrition of coins is a fact of life.
Whether worn in commerece, lost in fires or intentionally defaced populations decline with time.
IMO when the bullion value of a coin equals its collector price you are doing everyone a favor by removing it from the market.
No animals were injured in scraping certain 2006 and 2007 Platinums.
However slightly the value of surviving populations have been helped by removing surplus from market.
No one can continue to doubt that coins are actually off market and published mintages are high. >>
So you're saying that you are doing future generations of collectors a big favor by destroying the items that they will collect??? Doesn't make any sense to me. There will be less of them and so they have to pay more to enjoy them. hmmm.......
I have recently sold (4) 1 oz PCGS MS 69 platinum coins to kitco. I felt bad about it. But I didn't remove them from their slabs. I was hoping on the outside chance that they may survive the melt off and end up in some investors portfolio, protected. Perhaps one day they will resurface and be enjoyed by a collector again. The melt price represented a very good profit for me. I had no feelings that i wanted to deface the coin because i was only offered melt. >>
Again......... once a coins value as scrap is the same as its value to a collector then its better off being scraped.
I do not feel any responsibility to needlessly preserve something so it will be easier to find and less expensive in the future. >>
There is a big difference between "needlessly preserving" something and "purposely destroying" something. You obviously are a speculator and not a collector.
Based on what you have said about needlessly preserving something leads me to believe that you plan to destroy every coin you have because you don't feel any responsibility to have your coins easier to find and less expensive in the future for other coin collectors. I have a feeling thats not true.
I also don't agree with the statement that when a coins scrap value is the same as its value to a collector then it is better off being scrapped. There is no logic to that. All you are seeing is that a bubble in the precious metals value is pushing the inherent metal value of the coin to an equal or greater level than a collector would pay. That does not mean the coin needs to be scrapped. It means that there is a temporary bubble and that collectors can't afford the metal value of the coin. That is no reason to purposely deface it. A collector would want to try and protect it from the smelter by leaving it in its slab and hoping an investor gets it.
Are you only in this hobby to make money or do you actually like the coins you hold? We have a responsibility here to ensure there are examples for future generations.
The mintages of these items already ensure their rarity. Why would you want to destroy them? >>
Sending coins to Kitco and hoping they will survive intact is like the farmer sending some of his cows to market hoping someone will think they are cute and they won't be slaughtered.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I liked the spot price and I was pleased to receive it.
As the coins were valued as bullion I could have beat them with a hammer and received the same price.
Attrition of coins is a fact of life.
Whether worn in commerece, lost in fires or intentionally defaced populations decline with time.
IMO when the bullion value of a coin equals its collector price you are doing everyone a favor by removing it from the market.
No animals were injured in scraping certain 2006 and 2007 Platinums.
However slightly the value of surviving populations have been helped by removing surplus from market.
No one can continue to doubt that coins are actually off market and published mintages are high. >>
So you're saying that you are doing future generations of collectors a big favor by destroying the items that they will collect??? Doesn't make any sense to me. There will be less of them and so they have to pay more to enjoy them. hmmm.......
I have recently sold (4) 1 oz PCGS MS 69 platinum coins to kitco. I felt bad about it. But I didn't remove them from their slabs. I was hoping on the outside chance that they may survive the melt off and end up in some investors portfolio, protected. Perhaps one day they will resurface and be enjoyed by a collector again. The melt price represented a very good profit for me. I had no feelings that i wanted to deface the coin because i was only offered melt. >>
Again......... once a coins value as scrap is the same as its value to a collector then its better off being scraped.
I do not feel any responsibility to needlessly preserve something so it will be easier to find and less expensive in the future. >>
There is a big difference between "needlessly preserving" something and "purposely destroying" something. You obviously are a speculator and not a collector.
Based on what you have said about needlessly preserving something leads me to believe that you plan to destroy every coin you have because you don't feel any responsibility to have your coins easier to find and less expensive in the future for other coin collectors. I have a feeling thats not true.
I also don't agree with the statement that when a coins scrap value is the same as its value to a collector then it is better off being scrapped. There is no logic to that. All you are seeing is that a bubble in the precious metals value is pushing the inherent metal value of the coin to an equal or greater level than a collector would pay. That does not mean the coin needs to be scrapped. It means that there is a temporary bubble and that collectors can't afford the metal value of the coin. That is no reason to purposely deface it. A collector would want to try and protect it from the smelter by leaving it in its slab and hoping an investor gets it.
Are you only in this hobby to make money or do you actually like the coins you hold? We have a responsibility here to ensure there are examples for future generations.
The mintages of these items already ensure their rarity. Why would you want to destroy them? >>
Sending coins to Kitco and hoping they will survive intact is like the farmer sending of cows his to market hoping someone will think they are cute and they won't be slaughtered. >>
I guess we're just two different kinds of people. I couldn't puposely scratch or deface a collectible coin, ever. I may sell to a bullion dealer who then in turn would most likely sell to a bullion investor. But at least i know that the coin I sent in was protected and not purposely defaced.
<< <i>I don't know if circulating a large percentage of the coins is the same thing as destroying them. I sent some on their way to kitco after spending a little time with about 50 clad quaters in a mason jar. The coins were ok just circulated. They still were presidential and legislative plats.
I don't plan to sell a full set of Unc-w quarters, proof quarters, unc-w halves and proof halves. They will go on to the future generations even if the metal hits $5000 and oz. I am a true collector but bringing a more typical grade distribution to the plats not just having everything grade 69 or better is a very good thing in my view.
I want to look in a RED BOOK in 20 years and see AU-55, MS-60, MS-63, MS-65, MS67, MS69 and MS-70.
Grade distribution like all the classic sets do. >>
Honestly Eric, didn't you at least feel some remorse when you took those near perfect examples of historically low mintage coins and swilled them around in a jar with 50 clad quarters knowing full well that the fields would be trashed when you were done?
I guess we have a new definition for circulating coinage. It now means putting an uncirculated coin in a jar with 50 clad quarters and moving the jar in a circular motion. I always thought that circulating coinage meant that it was used for transactions of commerce.
Plats will never be circulating coinage in the classic sense. They were never meant to circulate. All that you have created with the jar are damaged coins.
I'm not here to judge. I'm just a little disappointed in some of the actions of fellow collectors. JMHO
There seems to be an unstated assumption that the "great melt of 2008" is an anomaly, which will cease when the platinum bubble bursts and the price returns to "normal."
What if it doesn't? What if the price of platinum goes higher and stays there?
It's entirely possible that demand from emerging Asian economies will sustain high platinum prices, regardless of whether the short-term electricity problems in the South African mines persist. If platinum prices stay high, the coin melts could continue for the indefinite future.
About a year's worth of current platinum consumption is tied up in APEs. Melting them could ease the supply crunch for some time to come. By the time the melts taper off, the remaining APEs could be held mostly by bullion hoarders and hardcore, well-heeled collectors. At that point, estimating the number of survivors for each date and mintmark would be difficult if not impossible.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I think Platinum American Eagles have been melted long before 2008 and will continue to melt after prices normalize if they ever do go back to what used to be a reasonable level three months ago. The ongoing situation has done nothing but bring the issue to light; but, I believe that common dates have been melted for a while now.
About a year's worth of current platinum consumption is tied up in APEs. Melting them could ease the supply crunch for some time to come. By the time the melts taper off, the remaining APEs could be held mostly by bullion hoarders and hardcore, well-heeled collectors. At that point, estimating the number of survivors for each date and mintmark would be difficult if not impossible.
We have to destroy these coins in order to save them. (Or just mangle them.)
It's Coinhog and 2manycoins who, ironic handles and all, understand my sentiment. I finished selling off these off not too long ago, always at a profit, and I have to be grateful for having learned about the opportunity here... but I sure learned a lot about ultramodern speculation as well, and it ain't so pretty from a collecting point of view.
The 1927D Saints are only great because you can't go out and by 10,000 of them.
Rarity builds collectability.
<< <i>Wow. After all the hype about desirability, in only about a year, this is what it has come down to:
We have to destroy these coins in order to save them. (Or just mangle them.)
It's Coinhog and 2manycoins who, ironic handles and all, understand my sentiment. I finished selling off these off not too long ago, always at a profit, and I have to be grateful for having learned about the opportunity here... but I sure learned a lot about ultramodern speculation as well, and it ain't so pretty from a collecting point of view. >>
I don't understand how anyone who claims to be a coin collector could purposely mangle, alter, circulate, deface, etc,etc, etc, any coin whose sole purpose is to be " the premier collectable offering from the US Mint" and also the pinnacle of the coiners art. These plats with the changing reverse are a true renaissance of coinage in america today. We have all had enough of the dead presidents and continually complain about the lack of acceptable designs on our commemorative coins.
These plats arguably have the best designs of any coins ever offered by the mint. Its a crying shame that sometimes they get "altered" when shipped to a bullion dealer. Yes kitco is a bullion dealer. There are no guarantees that these will be melted. there is as good a chance that they will be resold and sit in an investors bank box.
NO, we do not have to destroy them to save them.
The main focus of this thread is to document history. The melting of these coins is happening, we have been able to document that as of recently. The sales of these coins as mere bullion is happening and we have been able to document that too. As a collector of these beautiful coins, I personally dedicate myself to study their grading and sales trends. To hear from dealers, collectors, investors and speculators about what's the latest trend is absolutely great.
Silvertowne was interviewed regarding the meltdown of thousands of coins recently. That interview ended up on the first page of CW. Why? Not because of the moral implications of it but because of the historical value of that piece of information.
I would rather seat here and listen to what people have to say and learn from it than pass judgment on everything that doesn't go well with me and watch people step back and stop talking in fear to be judged publicly. To those who have contributed to this thread and have come forth with valuable information, thank you!
Should I have refused to sell this gentleman coins under these circumstances? Should I reconsider the Proof Ike Dollar I recently cracked out of a Proof set to use as my pocket piece (on a slightly lesser budget than my $100 Proof Platinum customer)?
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