One of my friends told me that a PCGS MS70 FS UHR sold for $30K. I see a best offer at $25k. Are these folks smoking crack?? What's up with this. Did one sell at $30K???
Edited to note that the one which sold for $30K is an NGC MS70 ER PL (link below). What's up with this?? Is the buyer nuts? I have not been following the PL coins. I noted that they were offered at BIN prices in the low $2K range some months back. I didn't even consider one as I could never tell the difference between PL and non-PL at the shows where I could compare them side by side.
I did notice that the PCGS price guide has the PF70 $50 gold Buffalo at about $4200, and the same coin with the first strike lable at $7000! Wow that is almost $3000 difference for the same coin!
Do you think David Hall would buy some "plain old" Proof 70s and reslab them as First Strike and make a fortune?
Truly amazing prices, I noticed on the PCGS price guide the first strike $5 buffalo PR70 is $1450 vs the PR70 at $725. I cannot see the justification for paying twice as much for the same coin simply because one is in a first strike slab. When/if the coin market slumps, I would be very concerned about the return on the first strike labels.
<< <i>I do see that the 2008-w 1/4 $10 gold eagle burnished coins have almost all disappeared except for high BIN offerings.
Unfortunately that is becoming the norm for Ebay...........
Fewer and fewer true auctions.
I agree.
My auctions never have a reserve and I start them out ridiculous low $$. I have never been burned (since 1998), knock on wood. Of course I do my homework first before I put something up for auction. I like to sell when everyone wants "it." The hard part is finding the "it" before they realize they need "it" at a much higher price. And whenever I sell "it" I wish I had bought ten more.
I like to have a high number of bidders. I think it brings a little excitement to the auction, I know it does for me.
What's the next "it"? I think the last Liberty spouse on sale towards the end of this year is part of it. I think the 4-coin Liberty set will be highly promoted. The uncs are down in the 4,000 mintage and the proofs are in the 7,000 range except for the Jefferson. What are the mintages on the 2008W Buffs and AGE's? Exactly. The Buff is beautiful and the king but the four Liberty's together will make for a nice set plus an affordable two ounces of gold.
On Ebay more and more overpriced BIN listings hoping to snare an unsavy buyer with fewer and fewer true auctions.
On the MS/PR69-70 price difference that may be the future of modern mint products...........no premium and an actual penalty for 69 coins with prices below raw coin prices.
On Ebay more and more overpriced BIN listings hoping to snare an unsavy buyer with fewer and fewer true auctions.
Ebay does seem to be taking on more and more characteristics of the stock market - hyped up pricing and very few true auctions that allow for price discovery.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Unfortunately, as someone who experienced first the hype and then the destruction of the sports card hobby...I see disturbing parallels with the hype tied to MS 69 vs MS 70 vs First Strike etc.
This is just marketing run amok that will come back to hurt the hobby in the long term!
THE REAL TRUTH IS WHAT ONE BELIEVES. THE TRUTH IS MS 70 OR PF70 70 IS 70 PERIOD.
PCGS WAS BRILLANT IN COMING UP WITH WAYS TO MAKE MONEY FOR THEMSELVES AND THOSE THAT BUY/SELL GRADED COINS.
I FOR ONE KEPT MY PROOF BUFFALO SET RAW IN THE OGP BECAUSE IT IS THE TRUTH. IT ISD WHAT IT IS. ONCE GRADED YOU AREN'T LOOKING AT THE COIN THE SAME WAY ONCE IT'S IN A SLAB.
I KEPT MY ONE MS BUFFALO GOLD NICKEL BECAUSE ITS REALLY COOL AND GREAT LOOKING.
I DID GRADE TO MS SET. WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY EVERYTHING I GOT BACK WAS A 70 EXCEPT MY $25 COIN. IT'S AN MS69.
ALSO GRADED PF69 WAS MY OTHER PF $25.
I WANT TO SEND THEM BACK TO SEE IF THEY ARE+ NOW OR REALLY 69'S OR 70.
JUST MY TWO CENTS.
Ships are safe in harbor but thats not what ships were built for.
With that 10% crash in the stock market last week we got a little taste of what might happen. Who knows, even the spouse coins might actually be loved someday since they are made of 9999 gold.
<< On Ebay more and more overpriced BIN listings hoping to snare an unsavy buyer with fewer and fewer true auctions. >>
Up to a few days ago, some of the high-priced BINs could still be a good value for the buyer using Cashback of 8% or more. Now that Cashback on eBay has disappeared (at least for the moment), I suspect that fewer BINs will sell unless prices are lowered to compensate.
Very strong numbers and I believe record prices for raw sets on Ebay.
All of the 2008-W products seem to be moving...........eagles, buffs and platinum.
Platinum spot prices have some catching up to do against gold.
IMO if and I stress IF gold makes a run at $1500 then I expect platinum to make a run toward $2000 which should send a lot of MS/PR69 stuff to smelters.
Final surviving populations of PR and especially MS platinums will in the end be very skewed to MS/PR70s.
I've still got some MS/PR 69 20th Anniversary gold and some 2006 platinum that I may scrap if prices stay up long enough for me to get to bank.(My buffs are all still raw)
Not for nothing...but as I was typing my earlier message, I showed those eBay sales numbers to my wife who said, "Maybe you want to sell one of the Buff sets (we have three), and buy some of the older, high-priced stuff you've always lusted after."
Although I'm not going to run out and sell a set today...these numbers ARE starting to get rather compelling to take some profits sooner rather than later!
On a semi-related Buffalo note, my wife and I went out to dinner with my in-laws for Mother's Day...and my father-in-law drops into conversation that he has a 3-pound coffee can full of circulated Buffs and Mercs that he inherited from his father. And he wanted to know if they were worth anything(!!!)
So after picking myself off the floor...and rolling my tongue back into my mouth...I told him I'd come over anytime to look through them with him!
<< <i>IMO if and I stress IF gold makes a run at $1500 then I expect platinum to make a run toward $2000 which should send a lot of MS/PR69 stuff to smelters. >>
Pt is tied to vehicles sales. We'll have to see the economy doing much better, here and elsewhere, before platinum tops 2k. jmo On another topic...a year ago the 1/10 PF APE in PCGS70 was available all day long for ~$400, but now seem to be in tighter hands and selling at 900-1000. I like it!
Are they all just bullion or do any have a premium? >>
Anna Harrison has the off sale lowest mintage. 3,537 unc. & 6250 Proof. as for the next few to come off sale it looks like Julia tyler is the biggest threat to take the top spot near term. If rising Gold prices hold, it will likely hurt future fiist spouse sales. mintages could get a lot lower in the future!!! Not sure if collectors will look at them as bullion or something more. however when looking at what some of the bullion coins are selling for, It does not seem to matter much. When there low Mintage, they can sell for many times there melt value !!!!
if gold falls to $250 per ounce again... and these go for bullion... and there are still only 37 of them... Then we are talking about a $4,625 set. (how much have I spent so far?)
Would that be a low enough price to draw interest from a large body of collectors?
If prices for the spouses stays in this price area... and I'll just use $725 as convenience... and there are still only 37 of them... Then we are talking about a $26,825 set.
if gold falls to $250 per ounce again... and these go for bullion... and there are still only 37 of them... Then we are talking about a $4,625 set. (how much have I spent so far?)
Would that be a low enough price to draw interest from a large body of collectors?
If prices for the spouses stays in this price area... and I'll just use $725 as convenience... and there are still only 37 of them... Then we are talking about a $26,825 set.
Is this too pricey? >>
26,825 for the set does seem pricey now, but when we reach the point were a new one comes out only every 5 to 10 years, It will not seem so pricey then. I think many collectors will buy the new issues while trying to put together all the older ones!
I keep seeing a few "raw" Proof Plats for sale on ebay as bullion, no box, no cert, unslabbed. I must conclude that these are <MS69 and that they were sold when the price of platinum made it too attractive to resist. It might have been recently, or it might have been in '08 but either way, there are some orphans starting to show up.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>I keep seeing a few "raw" Proof Plats for sale on ebay as bullion, no box, no cert, unslabbed. I must conclude that these are <MS69 and that they were sold when the price of platinum made it too attractive to resist. It might have been recently, or it might have been in '08 but either way, there are some orphans starting to show up. >>
<< <i>IMO if and I stress IF gold makes a run at $1500 then I expect platinum to make a run toward $2000 which should send a lot of MS/PR69 stuff to smelters. >>
I can't see many (if any) US Platinum Eagles going to smelters. "Investment" demand is the driving force at the moment. And the Platinum Eagles are already in the optimal form for investing/speculating (1-oz size, easily identifiable content & manufacturer, not many being made, etc.). Most industrial demand can be satisfied by mine production and recycling of industrial scrap (unless investment demand takes some of that away).
<< <i>IMO if and I stress IF gold makes a run at $1500 then I expect platinum to make a run toward $2000 which should send a lot of MS/PR69 stuff to smelters. >>
I can't see many (if any) US Platinum Eagles going to smelters. >>
It would be interesting to hear from those big companies that purchase for bullion what they do with it. At some point do they send it off to the smelter instead of risking a loss or reduced profit?
<< <i>I keep seeing a few "raw" Proof Plats for sale on ebay as bullion, no box, no cert, unslabbed. I must conclude that these are <MS69 and that they were sold when the price of platinum made it too attractive to resist. It might have been recently, or it might have been in '08 but either way, there are some orphans starting to show up. >>
They could also be left over from 4-coin sets that were broken up for one or more of the individual coins. If this is the case, they may or may not be lower-grade coins.
<< <i>IMO if and I stress IF gold makes a run at $1500 then I expect platinum to make a run toward $2000 which should send a lot of MS/PR69 stuff to smelters. >>
Pt is tied to vehicles sales. We'll have to see the economy doing much better, here and elsewhere, before platinum tops 2k. jmo On another topic...a year ago the 1/10 PF APE in PCGS70 was available all day long for ~$400, but now seem to be in tighter hands and selling at 900-1000. I like it! >>
Yep! Good news that. I assume you're talking about the '08s, right? If APEs start moving again, it may give us all something to talk about besides buffs!
As for First Spouse, I'd probably collect 'em for $200 a pop, but just don't get too excited beyond that. I think they have an excellent chance of being the first low-mintage U.S. issues that never generate much interest, even 50 years hence.
Although there is 4X as much gold in the $50, I think the FS MS70 $10 will be the % winner of the two due to the similarity in size to the original buffalo nickel and FS designation.
<< <i>today is my birthday, not so exciting as it used to be. please someone post something interesting that hasn't been said already in different terms.
my regards to all my fellow brethren. >>
Changing Reverse Mint State Platinum Eagles
Year ...$100 ...$50 ...$25 ...$10 2006-W Mint State Legislative ...3,068 ...2,577 ...2,676 ...3,544 2007-W Mint State Executive ...4,177 ...3,635 ...3,690 ...5,556 2008-W Mint State Judicial ...2,876 ...2,253 ...2,481 ...3,706
There are only a hand full of mint state type coins made available to the collecting public since 1915 with sub 3,000 mintages and all 5 of them are members of the twelve coin Foundations of American Democracy Platinum Eagle sub set. The question is, a subset of what? Are they going to be collected as part of the business strike platinum bullion date based series or as a rider on the Changing Reverse Proof Platinum Eagles? Will they be collected as their own exclusive set? Time will answer these questions but one thing is certain. They are the pinnacle of modern type rarity and they are the lead coins in the complete Platinum Eagle type set. The $50 Platinum Eagle denominational type set is listed below as an example.
Master Type Listing for all $50 Platinum Eagles:
Cameo Proofs ...Mintage 1997 Cameo Proof -Eagle Over The Sun ...15,431 1998 Cameo Proof –New England Coast ...13,836 1999 Cameo Proof – Wetlands ...11,103 2000 Cameo Proof – Heartland ...11,049 2001 Cameo Proof – South West ...8,254 2002 Cameo Proof – North West ...8,772 2003 Cameo Proof – Patriotic Vigilance ...7,131 2004 Cameo Proof – Seated America ...5,063 2005 Cameo Proof – Plenty ...5,942 2006 Cameo Proof – Legislative ...7,649 2007 Cameo Proof – Presidential ...22,873 2008 Cameo Proof – Judicial ...4,020
Reverse Proofs 1997-2003 Reverse Proof “Bullion” – Eagle Over The Sun ...158,349 2007 Reverse Proof “Anniversary” – Presidential ...16,873
Mint State Finish Issues 2004 –2008 Mint State “Bullion” – Eagle Over the Sun ...52,852 2006 Mint State “w” – Legislative ...2,577 2007 Mint State “w” – Presidential ...3,635 2008 Mint State “w” – Judicial ...2,253
Total = 18 type coins.
That’s an awful lot of design variety and type in some form will dominate how the platinum set is assembled. The currently existing collector base is populated primarily by the Cameo Proof Collectors because they are so lovely and have had time to develop a following but when proof collectors finish their sets will they want to go on and pick up the ultra low mintage 3 coin Foundations of American Democracy mint state issues? Would you?
The cameo proofs are clearly a date run type set but will the mint state coins also be collected in the same manner? A complete mint state set composed of all four designs can only be put together as a date run using the 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008 issues because 2009 mint state platinum eagles were not struck in any form. The 2005 platinum eagles are the second or third rarest business strike Platinum Eagle in every denomination and they were issued in bulk so the majority of them are imperfect and have no chance of grading 70 while most of the 2006-2008 issues can. MS-70 2005 platinum eagles may perform better than their population reports would indicate due to preferential absorption. Below is an example of a complete mint state date run of all four reverse designs in a PCGS multi coin holder. The set shown is the rarest mint state type set since the five coin Panama Pacific Commemorative issues came out prior to the First World War.
Four coin $50 type set did not transfer....
While the 200 year mint state design based rarity ranking is an imperfect approximation its noteworthy that the $50 mint state platinum eagles shown come in 18th, 27th, 38th and 179th with mintages of 2,253, 2,577, 3,635 and 52,852 respectively. Regardless of which denomination you chose to look at these changing reverse mint state populations are so low that a relatively small influx of new collectors willing to see the favorable fundamentals can absorb the keys. There are very few places at this table.
Comments
One of my friends told me that a PCGS MS70 FS UHR sold for $30K. I see a best offer at $25k. Are these folks smoking crack?? What's up with this. Did one sell at $30K???
Edited to note that the one which sold for $30K is an NGC MS70 ER PL (link below). What's up with this?? Is the buyer nuts? I have not been following the PL coins. I noted that they were offered at BIN prices in the low $2K range some months back. I didn't even consider one as I could never tell the difference between PL and non-PL at the shows where I could compare them side by side.
http://cgi.ebay.com/2009-20-Ultra-High-Relief-NGC-MS-70-EARLY-RELEASE-PL-/160425487170?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Coins_Bullion&hash=item255a1aab42
What's up with the $30K?? Now that's a LOT to be paying for ER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks, Ron
$1198/ounce...and climbing...
So I guess all those Europeans must be buying the shiny stuff to replace their rapidly tarnishing Euros?
<< <i>$1198/ounce...and climbing...
So I guess all those Europeans must be buying the shiny stuff to replace their rapidly tarnishing Euros? >>
Dude, in a few months they will have been glad to have payed 30,000 Euros for that PL UHR!
Miles
Unfortunately that is becoming the norm for Ebay...........
Fewer and fewer true auctions.
What is gray sheet bid on the 2008-w 1/4 burnished eagles??
Ask is $975
Bid is $1,050
Not too shabby!
link
<< <i>Anyone check out the PCGS price guide for the 2008-W $50 Buffalo lately?
link >>
Except for the graded 70s, the $10 looks like the big gainer. Doubled, +/-, in every grade except 70.
Do you think David Hall would buy some "plain old" Proof 70s and reslab them as First Strike and make a fortune?
<< <i>Check my buffalo sales 2008 w pr70 pcgs f/s ending today on eBay mY id francisco212
linked
Im I reading that right?
I think one went 5k range a few months back on ebay.
Box of 20
<< <i>The $5 PF Buffalo over $3000!!!
I think one went 5k range a few months back on ebay. >>
ok, this has truly become FS Crazy Time!!!
Do you get a Sealed set of AGE's with this purchase?? Maybe a small car, powerboat, some Zimbabwe money?
Miles
<< <i>I do see that the 2008-w 1/4 $10 gold eagle burnished coins have almost all disappeared except for high BIN offerings.
Unfortunately that is becoming the norm for Ebay...........
Fewer and fewer true auctions.
I agree.
My auctions never have a reserve and I start them out ridiculous low $$. I have never been burned (since 1998), knock on wood. Of course I do my homework first before I put something up for auction. I like to sell when everyone wants "it." The hard part is finding the "it" before they realize they need "it" at a much higher price. And whenever I sell "it" I wish I had bought ten more.
I like to have a high number of bidders. I think it brings a little excitement to the auction, I know it does for me.
What's the next "it"? I think the last Liberty spouse on sale towards the end of this year is part of it. I think the 4-coin Liberty set will be highly promoted. The uncs are down in the 4,000 mintage and the proofs are in the 7,000 range except for the Jefferson. What are the mintages on the 2008W Buffs and AGE's? Exactly. The Buff is beautiful and the king but the four Liberty's together will make for a nice set plus an affordable two ounces of gold.
R95
<< <i>Yes one go for $4999 like 1 month 1/2 on buy now >>
I guess I should trade all my 1oz buffaloes for 1/10oz buffaloes
2008-W $50 Platinum Eagle Burnished PCGS MS70 $1800
2008 W American Platinum Eagle $10 PCGS MS70 $550
2008 W PCGS PR70 DCAM $10 Platinum Eagle Proof Coin $929
Lot's of Buy It Nows closed though with no buyers.
The 69 coins are still stinkers though.
<< <i>
Lot's of Buy It Nows closed though with no buyers.
The 69 coins are still stinkers though.
...........................................................................................................................................
That may be the future...........
On Ebay more and more overpriced BIN listings hoping to snare an unsavy buyer with fewer and fewer true auctions.
On the MS/PR69-70 price difference that may be the future of modern mint products...........no premium and an actual penalty for 69 coins with prices below raw coin prices.
On Ebay more and more overpriced BIN listings hoping to snare an unsavy buyer with fewer and fewer true auctions.
Ebay does seem to be taking on more and more characteristics of the stock market - hyped up pricing and very few true auctions that allow for price discovery.
I knew it would happen.
This is just marketing run amok that will come back to hurt the hobby in the long term!
PCGS WAS BRILLANT IN COMING UP WITH WAYS TO MAKE MONEY FOR THEMSELVES AND THOSE THAT BUY/SELL GRADED COINS.
I FOR ONE KEPT MY PROOF BUFFALO SET RAW IN THE OGP BECAUSE IT IS THE TRUTH. IT ISD WHAT IT IS. ONCE GRADED YOU AREN'T LOOKING AT THE COIN THE SAME WAY ONCE IT'S IN A SLAB.
I KEPT MY ONE MS BUFFALO GOLD NICKEL BECAUSE ITS REALLY COOL AND GREAT LOOKING.
I DID GRADE TO MS SET. WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY EVERYTHING I GOT BACK WAS A 70 EXCEPT MY $25 COIN. IT'S AN MS69.
ALSO GRADED PF69 WAS MY OTHER PF $25.
I WANT TO SEND THEM BACK TO SEE IF THEY ARE+ NOW OR REALLY 69'S OR 70.
JUST MY TWO CENTS.
Up to a few days ago, some of the high-priced BINs could still be a good value for the buyer using Cashback of 8% or more. Now that Cashback on eBay has disappeared (at least for the moment), I suspect that fewer BINs will sell unless prices are lowered to compensate.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
What is the current low mintage coin?
Are they all just bullion or do any have a premium?
As Rod Serling would say, "For your consideration..." I present links to sales of two raw Buff sets on eBay last night:
The first is an accepted Best Offer for a raw Unc set for $7,250:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-W-American-Gold-Buffalo-4-Coin-Set-OGP-Rare-BZ8-/150430199239?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Coins_Bullion&hash=item230656adc7
And the second is an accepted Best Offer for a raw Proof set for $8,900:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-W-U-S-MINT-BUFFALO-GOLD-4-COIN-PROOF-SET-/250630349445?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Coins_Bullion&hash=item3a5abba285
To which I ask...how "real" should we consider these numbers, which I believe might be all-time highs for raw sets.
I missed those sales.
Very strong numbers and I believe record prices for raw sets on Ebay.
All of the 2008-W products seem to be moving...........eagles, buffs and platinum.
Platinum spot prices have some catching up to do against gold.
IMO if and I stress IF gold makes a run at $1500 then I expect platinum to make a run toward $2000 which should send a lot of MS/PR69 stuff to smelters.
Final surviving populations of PR and especially MS platinums will in the end be very skewed to MS/PR70s.
I've still got some MS/PR 69 20th Anniversary gold and some 2006 platinum that I may scrap if prices stay up long enough for me to get to bank.(My buffs are all still raw)
Although I'm not going to run out and sell a set today...these numbers ARE starting to get rather compelling to take some profits sooner rather than later!
The second Proof Set had a bit more info, but again, simple and direct.
These sets are WAY out performing my expectations. The question will be asked again and again - where is the top? Who knows.....
I see ads throughout the coin and internet world that tout these sets as the hottest coin-related item currently available.
There is alot to be said for he free press they are receiving that increase the chances of bigger and bigger gains for those that are ready to sell.
I, for the time being, remain in a holding pattern as Gold and Buff Frac Sets ascend! Who is considering the opposite??
Miles
So after picking myself off the floor...and rolling my tongue back into my mouth...I told him I'd come over anytime to look through them with him!
<< <i>IMO if and I stress IF gold makes a run at $1500 then I expect platinum to make a run toward $2000 which should send a lot of MS/PR69 stuff to smelters. >>
Pt is tied to vehicles sales. We'll have to see the economy doing much better, here and elsewhere, before platinum tops 2k. jmo On another topic...a year ago the 1/10 PF APE in PCGS70 was available all day long for ~$400, but now seem to be in tighter hands and selling at 900-1000. I like it!
US is no longer largest market.....that now belongs to China and gap is growing.
There is also a new platinum ETF that is taking platinum off market.
Lastly demand for platinum jewlery in China is very high and I believe it actually is more popular than gold in China.
<< <i>can anyone comment on the First Hags?
What is the current low mintage coin?
Are they all just bullion or do any have a premium? >>
Anna Harrison has the off sale lowest mintage. 3,537 unc. & 6250 Proof. as for the next few to come off sale it looks like Julia tyler is the biggest threat to take the top spot near term. If rising Gold prices hold, it will likely hurt future fiist spouse sales. mintages could get a lot lower in the future!!!
Not sure if collectors will look at them as bullion or something more. however when looking at what some of the bullion coins are selling for, It does not seem to matter much. When there low Mintage, they can sell for many times there melt value !!!!
numismatic interest or not?
if gold falls to $250 per ounce again...
and these go for bullion...
and there are still only 37 of them...
Then we are talking about a $4,625 set.
(how much have I spent so far?)
Would that be a low enough price to draw interest from a large body of collectors?
If prices for the spouses stays in this price area...
and I'll just use $725 as convenience...
and there are still only 37 of them...
Then we are talking about a $26,825 set.
Is this too pricey?
<< <i>that's always the fun...
numismatic interest or not?
if gold falls to $250 per ounce again...
and these go for bullion...
and there are still only 37 of them...
Then we are talking about a $4,625 set.
(how much have I spent so far?)
Would that be a low enough price to draw interest from a large body of collectors?
If prices for the spouses stays in this price area...
and I'll just use $725 as convenience...
and there are still only 37 of them...
Then we are talking about a $26,825 set.
Is this too pricey? >>
26,825 for the set does seem pricey now, but when we reach the point were a new one comes out only every 5 to 10 years, It will not seem so pricey then. I think many collectors will buy the new issues while trying to put together all the older ones!
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I keep seeing a few "raw" Proof Plats for sale on ebay as bullion, no box, no cert, unslabbed. I must conclude that these are <MS69 and that they were sold when the price of platinum made it too attractive to resist. It might have been recently, or it might have been in '08 but either way, there are some orphans starting to show up. >>
...........................................................................................................................
Caveat emptor !!
<< <i>IMO if and I stress IF gold makes a run at $1500 then I expect platinum to make a run toward $2000 which should send a lot of MS/PR69 stuff to smelters. >>
I can't see many (if any) US Platinum Eagles going to smelters. "Investment" demand is the driving force at the moment. And the Platinum Eagles are already in the optimal form for investing/speculating (1-oz size, easily identifiable content & manufacturer, not many being made, etc.). Most industrial demand can be satisfied by mine production and recycling of industrial scrap (unless investment demand takes some of that away).
<< <i>
<< <i>IMO if and I stress IF gold makes a run at $1500 then I expect platinum to make a run toward $2000 which should send a lot of MS/PR69 stuff to smelters. >>
I can't see many (if any) US Platinum Eagles going to smelters. >>
It would be interesting to hear from those big companies that purchase for bullion what they do with it. At some point do they send it off to the smelter instead of risking a loss or reduced profit?
<< <i>I keep seeing a few "raw" Proof Plats for sale on ebay as bullion, no box, no cert, unslabbed. I must conclude that these are <MS69 and that they were sold when the price of platinum made it too attractive to resist. It might have been recently, or it might have been in '08 but either way, there are some orphans starting to show up. >>
They could also be left over from 4-coin sets that were broken up for one or more of the individual coins. If this is the case, they may or may not be lower-grade coins.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>
<< <i>IMO if and I stress IF gold makes a run at $1500 then I expect platinum to make a run toward $2000 which should send a lot of MS/PR69 stuff to smelters. >>
Pt is tied to vehicles sales. We'll have to see the economy doing much better, here and elsewhere, before platinum tops 2k. jmo On another topic...a year ago the 1/10 PF APE in PCGS70 was available all day long for ~$400, but now seem to be in tighter hands and selling at 900-1000. I like it!
Yep! Good news that. I assume you're talking about the '08s, right? If APEs start moving again, it may give us all something to talk about besides buffs!
As for First Spouse, I'd probably collect 'em for $200 a pop, but just don't get too excited beyond that. I think they have an excellent chance of being the first low-mintage U.S. issues that never generate much interest, even 50 years hence.
my regards to all my fellow brethren.
This
Or this
<< <i>today is my birthday, not so exciting as it used to be. please someone post something interesting that hasn't been said already in different terms.
my regards to all my fellow brethren. >>
Changing Reverse Mint State Platinum Eagles
Year ...$100 ...$50 ...$25 ...$10
2006-W Mint State Legislative ...3,068 ...2,577 ...2,676 ...3,544
2007-W Mint State Executive ...4,177 ...3,635 ...3,690 ...5,556
2008-W Mint State Judicial ...2,876 ...2,253 ...2,481 ...3,706
There are only a hand full of mint state type coins made available to the collecting public since 1915 with sub 3,000 mintages and all 5 of them are members of the twelve coin Foundations of American Democracy Platinum Eagle sub set. The question is, a subset of what? Are they going to be collected as part of the business strike platinum bullion date based series or as a rider on the Changing Reverse Proof Platinum Eagles? Will they be collected as their own exclusive set? Time will answer these questions but one thing is certain. They are the pinnacle of modern type rarity and they are the lead coins in the complete Platinum Eagle type set. The $50 Platinum Eagle denominational type set is listed below as an example.
Master Type Listing for all $50 Platinum Eagles:
Cameo Proofs ...Mintage
1997 Cameo Proof -Eagle Over The Sun ...15,431
1998 Cameo Proof –New England Coast ...13,836
1999 Cameo Proof – Wetlands ...11,103
2000 Cameo Proof – Heartland ...11,049
2001 Cameo Proof – South West ...8,254
2002 Cameo Proof – North West ...8,772
2003 Cameo Proof – Patriotic Vigilance ...7,131
2004 Cameo Proof – Seated America ...5,063
2005 Cameo Proof – Plenty ...5,942
2006 Cameo Proof – Legislative ...7,649
2007 Cameo Proof – Presidential ...22,873
2008 Cameo Proof – Judicial ...4,020
Reverse Proofs
1997-2003 Reverse Proof “Bullion” – Eagle Over The Sun ...158,349
2007 Reverse Proof “Anniversary” – Presidential ...16,873
Mint State Finish Issues
2004 –2008 Mint State “Bullion” – Eagle Over the Sun ...52,852
2006 Mint State “w” – Legislative ...2,577
2007 Mint State “w” – Presidential ...3,635
2008 Mint State “w” – Judicial ...2,253
Total = 18 type coins.
That’s an awful lot of design variety and type in some form will dominate how the platinum set is assembled. The currently existing collector base is populated primarily by the Cameo Proof Collectors because they are so lovely and have had time to develop a following but when proof collectors finish their sets will they want to go on and pick up the ultra low mintage 3 coin Foundations of American Democracy mint state issues? Would you?
The cameo proofs are clearly a date run type set but will the mint state coins also be collected in the same manner? A complete mint state set composed of all four designs can only be put together as a date run using the 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008 issues because 2009 mint state platinum eagles were not struck in any form. The 2005 platinum eagles are the second or third rarest business strike Platinum Eagle in every denomination and they were issued in bulk so the majority of them are imperfect and have no chance of grading 70 while most of the 2006-2008 issues can. MS-70 2005 platinum eagles may perform better than their population reports would indicate due to preferential absorption. Below is an example of a complete mint state date run of all four reverse designs in a PCGS multi coin holder. The set shown is the rarest mint state type set since the five coin Panama Pacific Commemorative issues came out prior to the First World War.
Four coin $50 type set did not transfer....
While the 200 year mint state design based rarity ranking is an imperfect approximation its noteworthy that the $50 mint state platinum eagles shown come in 18th, 27th, 38th and 179th with mintages of 2,253, 2,577, 3,635 and 52,852 respectively. Regardless of which denomination you chose to look at these changing reverse mint state populations are so low that a relatively small influx of new collectors willing to see the favorable fundamentals can absorb the keys. There are very few places at this table.