<< <i>Regarding these FS Labels....I think the uninitiated foreigners (like myself) would feel somehow that slabs with the FS Labels are "better"/more exclusive and more "American" because of the flag.... actually it's a fantastic piece of marketing from PCGS (whether you agree with it or not)....
JCoin >>
I hope that the TPGs produce many more "special" artistic labels in the future. Many of the recent ones have been an attractive complement to the coins. Sort of like the artistic cachets for First Day Covers made for stamp collectors.
<< <i>Regarding these FS Labels....I think the uninitiated foreigners (like myself) would feel somehow that slabs with the FS Labels are "better"/more exclusive and more "American" because of the flag.... actually it's a fantastic piece of marketing from PCGS (whether you agree with it or not)....
JCoin >>
I hope that the TPGs produce many more "special" artistic labels in the future. Many of the recent ones have been an attractive complement to the coins. Sort of like the artistic cachets for First Day Covers made for stamp collectors. >>
The NGC Buff. First Year of Issue labels are nice as well. The only thing is with the Proof sets, since 2008 was not the first year of issue of the $50 proof, the $50 has an ER or a generic label, while the fractionals could have the FYOI labels.
As has been said many times, but perhaps bears repeating, a key to the future value of the 2008 w buffs depends in part on whether The Mint does these issues in the future. It is likely that future issues would sell in much higher #s leaving the 08 Ws as keys, but it I could see it detracting from the 08 Ws value as they would not be unique.
Simply fantastic coins. I sure wish that I had put my 08 W plat $ into more Buffs!!!
<< <i>Regarding these FS Labels....I think the uninitiated foreigners (like myself) would feel somehow that slabs with the FS Labels are "better"/more exclusive and more "American" because of the flag.... actually it's a fantastic piece of marketing from PCGS (whether you agree with it or not)....
JCoin >>
I hope that the TPGs produce many more "special" artistic labels in the future. Many of the recent ones have been an attractive complement to the coins. Sort of like the artistic cachets for First Day Covers made for stamp collectors. >>
The NGC Buff. First Year of Issue labels are nice as well. The only thing is with the Proof sets, since 2008 was not the first year of issue of the $50 proof, the $50 has an ER or a generic label, while the fractionals could have the FYOI labels.
>>
Raufus I find this very interesting...have you got photos of the 2006-W Buff label with ER & FYOI as well as the 2008-W fractionals with the same?
The FYOI Buff. labels first appeared for the 2008 W Buffs. (as far as I know - I've never seen an 06 buff in one).
I do have the 06 W Buff proof (there was no 06 W Unc, just 06 business strike Uncs.). Back in 06, NGC was using red "First Strike", as opposed to the blue "Early Release" labels that they currently use.
This change was in recognition of the very well documented fact - by The Mint no less - that the order in which coins are released has no bearing on the order in which they were made.
In fact, the whole "first strike" concept dates back to when the first coins off of the dies were the best with respect to details, and the dies - being hand made -were used until they cracked. Thus, in earlier times, the "first strike" coins often had better detail. Currently, the dies for numismatic coins especially, are replaced often.
With respect to 08 W buffs, one can assemble an 08 W unc set where all of the coins have the FYOI label, since 08 was the first year of issue for all of the 08 W unc. buffs.
This, as previously mentioned, is not the case with the Proof $50 - which can be had with the ER but not FYOI label, while the fractionals can have the FYOI label.
I have all of the above and would be happy to post pics of them.
Unfortunately, I'm not very handy with Photobucket and posting pics on this forum, but I can slog through the process and have done it before.
I won't have time to do this until Sunday. So, if someone else can post the pics for JCoin, please do. If not, I'll gladly do so on Sunday when I have time.
The FYOI Buff. labels first appeared for the 2008 W Buffs. (as far as I know - I've never seen an 06 buff in one).
I do have the 06 W Buff proof (there was no 06 W Unc, just 06 business strike Uncs.). Back in 06, NGC was using red "First Strike", as opposed to the blue "Early Release" labels that they currently use.
This change was in recognition of the very well documented fact - by The Mint no less - that the order in which coins are released has no bearing on the order in which they were made.
In fact, the whole "first strike" concept dates back to when the first coins off of the dies were the best with respect to details, and the dies - being hand made -were used until they cracked. Thus, in earlier times, the "first strike" coins often had better detail. Currently, the dies for numismatic coins especially, are replaced often.
With respect to 08 W buffs, one can assemble an 08 W unc set where all of the coins have the FYOI label, since 08 was the first year of issue for all of the 08 W unc. buffs.
This, as previously mentioned, is not the case with the Proof $50 - which can be had with the ER but not FYOI label, while the fractionals can have the FYOI label.
I have all of the above and would be happy to post pics of them.
Unfortunately, I'm not very handy with Photobucket and posting pics on this forum, but I can slog through the process and have done it before.
I won't have time to do this until Sunday. So, if someone else can post the pics for JCoin, please do. If not, I'll gladly do so on Sunday when I have time.
Hope that this helps.
Ron >>
Thx Ron, Very kind of you....dont worry if it's too much trouble....I was just wondering. Too expensive for me to buy now anyway....
I noticed that the 2008 proof plat halves are getting few and far between on the bay and its found almost nowhere else. Same is true for $50 2008 w ms buff gold. My models show a $5000 price tag at series maturity for the 2008 $50 W mint state 69 buffalo and about 4 grand for a 2008 proof-69 plat half. The little 2008 $10 proof plat models out at about 2 grand at series maturity and the 2008 proof plat quarter shows 3 grand. Trouble is how long will that take?
This assumes the fractional plats and $50 W MS buffs stay closed. This looks likely at this point.
Book is done so I have time to look into other things.
OK Eric since you have a little extra time now Ha Ha! What are the pricing models pointing towards with the 2008 W Platinum uncirculated 1/4 oz and 1/2 oz with their super low mintages? Thanks
In order to model a coins likely behavior long-term the first thing you have to do is determine how the coin will be collected at maturity. Is the coin the key date of a substantial series where relative rarity in set will determine its value? If this is the case then total population and how rare the key is in comparison to the other siblings and semi keys can give us insight into its price relative to the common dates. A set thats too short or one that lacks some form of design cohesion is effectively a stand-alone type coin to a certain degree and is extremely hard to model.
So back to your question about the $25 and $50 ms platinum Judicial eagles:
If you model them as a 3 coin set the total population is less than 9,000 coins. This can be a problem because large numbers of common dates are effectively silent advertisements for the set and its keys. We also like to see a stand out key thats dramatically rarer than its next closest sibling(s). A clear king is desirable as opposed to a duopoly because it concentrates the key date effect. The 2006w and 2008w plats are closer in mintage than I would like to see and as a distinct 3 coin set they don’t have a common date population large enough to drive them.
If you model them as keys to the mint state set that includes the 1997-2003 reverse proofs and 2004-2008 matte finish issues then the 2,xxx mintage “w” plats become a incredibly tight bottleneck in a total series population of well over 200,000 members. Very high valuations would be possible but there is a problem. The platinum complex as Wondercoins likes to call them have a great deal of design variety in them so history teaches us that the set will not be collected by date but by type. So I would not count on much help from the date based series because their collector base probably will not develop well.
If you model for example the 2008 Judicial $50 plat as the key to the 18 coin type set then the models become wonderful and 5-10 grand is NO problem.
Cameo Proofs Mintage 1997 Cameo Proof -Eagle Over The Sun ....15,431 1998 Cameo Proof –New England Coast ....13,836 1999 Cameo Proof – Wetlands .......11,103 2000 Cameo Proof – Heartland .......11,049 2001 Cameo Proof – South West ....8,254 2002 Cameo Proof – North West ......8,772 2003 Cameo Proof – Patriotic Vigilance ....7,131 2004 Cameo Proof – Seated America .......5,063 2005 Cameo Proof – Plenty ...........5,942 2006 Cameo Proof – Legislative ....7,649 2007 Cameo Proof – Presidential ....22,873 2008 Cameo Proof – Judicial .........4,020
Reverse Proofs 1997-2003 Reverse Proof “Bullion” – Eagle Over The Sun ....158,349 2007 Reverse Proof “Anniversary” – Presidential ....16,873
Mint State Finish Issues 2004 –2008 Mint State “Bullion” – Eagle Over the Sun ....52,852 2006 Mint State “w” – Legislative ....2,577 2007 Mint State “w” – Presidential ....3,635 2008 Mint State “w” – Judicial ....2,253
Total = 18 type coins with over a third of a million total high grade population.
The last way to look at the 2008 Judicial plats is stand alone type coins. They are amazingly rare design based coins. They are about the 18th and 20th rarest design based mint state issues in the last 200 years. First and second in the last 95 years. The only problem with pure stand alone type coins is physical appearance is almost as important as rarity. These mint state coins are nice looking but no one I know of calls them stunning.
So there you have it. My long-winded way of saying I don’t know. They are however good buys at today’s prices in my view. Everyone that likes moderns and can afford one should have either the quarter or half in their collection, kind of like the 99w mint state gold. You don’t want to be caught without one if the market sees them for what they are because they will allow you to complete the set without a great deal of difficulty (cost) if you wish to do so later. On the other hand you may not want to be knee deep in them because it’s difficult to “determine their value” and “determine the certainty” .
In order to model a coins likely behavior long-term the first thing you have to do is determine how the coin will be collected at maturity. Is the coin the key date of a substantial series where relative rarity in set will determine its value? If this is the case then total population and how rare the key is in comparison to the other siblings and semi keys can give us insight into its price relative to the common dates. A set thats too short or one that lacks some form of design cohesion is effectively a stand-alone type coin to a certain degree and is extremely hard to model.
So back to your question about the $25 and $50 ms platinum Judicial eagles:
If you model them as a 3 coin set the total population is less than 9,000 coins. This can be a problem because large numbers of common dates are effectively silent advertisements for the set and its keys. We also like to see a stand out key thats dramatically rarer than its next closest sibling(s). A clear king is desirable as opposed to a duopoly because it concentrates the key date effect. The 2006w and 2008w plats are closer in mintage than I would like to see and as a distinct 3 coin set they don’t have a common date population large enough to drive them.
If you model them as keys to the mint state set that includes the 1997-2003 reverse proofs and 2004-2008 matte finish issues then the 2,xxx mintage “w” plats become a incredibly tight bottleneck in a total series population of well over 200,000 members. Very high valuations would be possible but there is a problem. The platinum complex as Wondercoins likes to call them have a great deal of design variety in them so history teaches us that the set will not be collected by date but by type. So I would not count on much help from the date based series because their collector base probably will not develop well.
If you model for example the 2008 Judicial $50 plat as the key to the 18 coin type set then the models become wonderful and 5-10 grand is NO problem.
Cameo Proofs Mintage 1997 Cameo Proof -Eagle Over The Sun ....15,431 1998 Cameo Proof –New England Coast ....13,836 1999 Cameo Proof – Wetlands .......11,103 2000 Cameo Proof – Heartland .......11,049 2001 Cameo Proof – South West ....8,254 2002 Cameo Proof – North West ......8,772 2003 Cameo Proof – Patriotic Vigilance ....7,131 2004 Cameo Proof – Seated America .......5,063 2005 Cameo Proof – Plenty ...........5,942 2006 Cameo Proof – Legislative ....7,649 2007 Cameo Proof – Presidential ....22,873 2008 Cameo Proof – Judicial .........4,020
Reverse Proofs 1997-2003 Reverse Proof “Bullion” – Eagle Over The Sun ....158,349 2007 Reverse Proof “Anniversary” – Presidential ....16,873
Mint State Finish Issues 2004 –2008 Mint State “Bullion” – Eagle Over the Sun ....52,852 2006 Mint State “w” – Legislative ....2,577 2007 Mint State “w” – Presidential ....3,635 2008 Mint State “w” – Judicial ....2,253
Total = 18 type coins with over a third of a million total high grade population.
The last way to look at the 2008 Judicial plats is stand alone type coins. They are amazingly rare design based coins. They are about the 18th and 20th rarest design based mint state issues in the last 200 years. First and second in the last 95 years. The only problem with pure stand alone type coins is physical appearance is almost as important as rarity. These mint state coins are nice looking but no one I know of calls them stunning.
So there you have it. My long-winded way of saying I don’t know. They are however good buys at today’s prices in my view. Everyone that likes moderns and can afford one should have either the quarter or half in their collection, kind of like the 99w mint state gold. You don’t want to be caught without one if the market sees them for what they are because they will allow you to complete the set without a great deal of difficulty (cost) if you wish to do so later. On the other hand you may not want to be knee deep in them because it’s difficult to “determine their value” and “determine the certainty” .
Just remember, the key is the key, even if by 1 coin difference.
Just take the 94-P Morgan vs the 93-S key. 110k vs 100k. Might as well be 1 coin with the total pops of all Morgans out there. The 93-S is far and away the key and it's price shows it.
The keys of the plat series will do very well in the future. Don't be so concerned about how "close" the key is to the semi-key in mintage.
So, it's safe to say i'm not in the camp that buys the duopoly concept. Not a bad theory, but collectors always focus on the keys no matter how close the mintage of the next closest semi-key.
Mike I am not suggesting that a 10 percent net population advantage does make for a sets key and that it will not produce a premium over its slightly higher pop siblings, that's not my point.
Pick the series profile that you think will produce the most pronounced key price:
Mintages Set one 4,050 3,635 6,300 4,200 2,253
Set two 3,635 2,577 2,253
Set three 10,025 10,041
Set three has the highest total pop but the key dates relative rarity is worthless (that's a real two coin series by the way) so key date price differential never developed.
Set two has a low total population and its key date is shallow so for it to pull substantial key date premiums over time (like 3-50 times the price of a common sibling) the market needs to look at them as desirable stand alone type coins or as the key to a larger type set. My point is relative rarity in a three coin series is not what will drive these coins price. A three coin set is almost no set at all.
Easy, set #1. It has a larger series population in the hands of the public and the coin that stands head and shoulders over its siblings is the 2,253 coin. The tightest relative bottleneck in a strong series is the best coin all else equal.
I collect the changing reverse mint state plats as a continuation of the proof plat set and as great type coins and IF the rest of the market does so too then the coins will be great but I don't look to a pathetic 3 coin 9,000 mintage series to drive themselves from a relative rarity perspective.
7/8 a coin that is lower by one is not the key, it is a co-key at best. If the other close co-key has a coin disappear in a house fire or is melted for jewelery then they are tied. If two of the other are melted then it is actually now a lower surviving population.
So far the prices for the plats have not reflected the mintages they gave us, so something is not right. I agree with Eric that the proofs have an easier to understand situation. However I also have to say that a very large population of coins is not always required to see appreciation in low mintage coins or low mintage series.
Someday I think the unc plats will have there day based on the numbers alone. That is now now though according to the market, it may take 5 years.
I am just thankful for the gold buffalos, there is no need to analyze those.
A KEY is a KEY by 1 coin. The definition is plain and simple.
Melting or destruction of coins may cause scarcity in available examples to purchase, but keys are measured by mintage. The lowest minatge is the KEY. Case closed.
As for the Gold Buffalo's, I did well with those too, but dont be surprised if you see the bubble pop soon.
Eric -
I dont think I agree.
The three year series changing reverse plats offers true rarity and a short set to complete for the ordinary collector.
Long drawn out series with high intrinsic bullion values drive collectors away. A nice three year run of 1/4's brings a good entry level price point, large enough coins to appreciate the design, and a short 3 coin set.
7/8 no one is saying that the 2006-w through 2008-w changing reverse plats are not great coins and will not develop well longer term. I was asked what my models indicate the longer term potential is for them and my answer was they are hard to model because their structure is messy.
As far as your comment about series becoming too long and it discouraging collector growth because the sets completion cost jump up is completely justified. When I talk about total population of a series I am not talking about wanting lots and lots of members in a set. What is the optimal number of coins in a set has been a topic of thought many times for me in the last two years but there does not seam to be a ideal number of coins in a set from a series popularity perspective. We do know that the ideal length of a set is at least influenced by the price of the common dates. Obviously 50 members of the Fifty state quarter silver proofs worked out just fine. 25 looks like its too many for $50 cameo proof gold eagles because after over two decades of running the so called keys have not been able to stretch out from the common dates in a meaningful way. $40,000 to buy the set is rough knowing its still open and its so called keys are fairly common.
The smallest series that I can think of right off hand that displays good in series relative rarity key date development is the seven member 1936 to 1942 proof Walkers and Mercuries. I talk to collectors and dealers throughout the country and I here from time to time that the mint state modern gold eagle sets are getting so many members that the cost of the total sets is starting to discourage broader collector interest for collecting the one once coins and the 4 coin sets by date. Is 7-25 members the ideal range for a set whose members are a grand each? I don't know.
What is going to make the 2008 w plats great in time in my opinion has nothing to do with their pathetic 3 coin series. Its looking down a type coin ranking for the last 200 years and seeing the 2008 judicial quarter coming in at number 20 and their Legislative siblings not far behind that will get the collectors thinking to them selves I need to pick those up! That and proof platinum set collectors continuing on to finish out the 17 or 18 coin type set.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about how much assistance two slightly higher mintage siblings can give a Key in its quest for super coin status. I think they will have their day regardless.
>> A KEY is a KEY by 1 coin. The definition is plain and simple. Melting or destruction of coins may cause scarcity in available examples to purchase, but keys are measured by mintage. The lowest minatge is the KEY. Case closed. <<
By this standard, the key date $20 St. Gaudens with motto is the 1908-S with a 22K mintage.
The 1933 has a mintage of 445,000, so it's a common date.
The "promotion factor" is often what drives better modern coins. It is tied to why a coin such as the $10 LOC has a current bid of around $5,000 with a mintage well in excess of 6,000, while a 2008-W $50 Burnished Platinum has a current bid of less than $1,250 with a mintage under 2,300. IMHO, the proof platinum coins have a much better chance of benefiting from the promotion factor than the MS burnished (despite their higher mintages). I will discuss this issue in much more detail in a future article I am currently writing.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Is there a "promotion factor" tied to the 1995-1996 Olympic gold coins? It appears to me that there is a giant disconnect between the $800+ price of the 1995-W uncirculated Torch Runner $5 gold (mintage 14,675) and the ~$300 price of the 1996-D uncirculated Paralympics *silver* dollar (slightly lower mintage of 14,497). I think that there must be more collectors of silver commems than of gold commems, for reasons of affordability if nothing else.
I just pre-ordered Eric's book - can't wait to get it. GREAT looking cover!
It looks like the NGC 08 W gold buffs have been bringing some much higher $ in recent days. I noted a PF70 FS set which went for over $11K BIN - WOW. These buffs are just amazing. How much higher will they go? Will they ever come down? Many of us I'm sure keep thinking that they're peaking and will come down, but they just seem to keep going up.
Do you really believe that the $10 LOC at $5G was due to promotion? Maybe in your neck of the woods, but not mine.
It seems to me like that coin was "cornered" which drove greysheet bids thru the roof and the cornering party then begins to move them out at inflated prices.
If you are going to do any real promotions, you better have 10,000 pieces of a real popular design and theme, not an esoteric commem.
I think the best thing the plats have going for them right now is that little pathetic 3 year run.
It's a short run with amazingly low mintages.
It has a good design theme - 3 branches of government.
It also differs from any other regular issue plat due to it's changing reverse - no eagles over the sun.
As for the proofs, i'm not saying they aren't beautiful, but one thing all of you fail to mention - the proof surfaces and their deterioration over time. Do I really want to hold some of these coins when over time "mirrors" get cloudy, that "invisible" fingerprint on those mirrors just happens to show up 3-5 years out, etc.
It's happened far too many times to both proof plats, gold and even .999 fuine buff proofs and the .9999 first lady proofs. Try to sell one of those babies when they tone up or worse.
I know quite a few buyers who purposely don't even entertain buying the proofs for this very reason.
Yes, the LOC (as well as some of the 95/96 gold commems mentioned) were "targeted" coins. They met certain parameters that resulted in them becoming such targets. Targeted coins can rise in price well beyond anything logically "charted" using mintage figures as a key to value. Ths is tied to "demand" being the key factor to a rising price. For example, there are plenty of wonderful pattern coins from the 19th century with mintages of less than 100 total coins produced (even less than 50) that sell for LESS than an LOC with more than a 6,000 mintage (even 140 years later)! If burnished platinum follows the path of many of these pattern coins (due to relatively less demand), then a 2,250 mintage alone may not drive a large price increase as you might expect. The key is to understand the "demand" factor for these coins and try to be a "step ahead" of such demand.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Our government also melted huge quantities of Morgans, so that needs to be taken into consideration also.
Bowers' Encyclopedia estimates that about twice as many 1894-P Morgan dollars survive as 1893-S, so survivorship drives the price, not original mintage.
Perhaps a better example is Barber quarters, which do not involve government melts. Which is the "key" - the 1913-S (mintage 40,000) or the 1901-S (mintage 72,664)? The 1901-S is more than 3 times the price of the 1913-S, due to fewer survivors. That makes it the key in my book.
The 1914-D vs. 1931-S Lincoln cent is another example.
All you guys thanks for ordering the book. This is the first book that covers our area of coin interest and the better educated the collecting public becomes the more dynamic our series will become. Try to think of people that need to see it when it comes out. I hope to sell the books in bulk lots on this forum at my cost or close to it but not in single copies at some point. Wondercoins has suggested he wants a hundred of them so he can send them on to those that "need" them in California.
This is not an opportunity to make money pushing books. Its about influencing the way these wonderful series of ours are perceived. We have a great story about great young series with bright futures. Tomorrows numismatic treasures. One thing I have noticed about the coin books business its a monkey see monkey do line of work. If this moderns text sells well then KP will be even hotter on moderns than they are now and the guys at Whitman will have to get their mess together on moderns or give up market share.
Guys the Mint gave us these great series many of which are now closed and all we need to do is run with the ball the way the classic guys do and we will come into the mainstream rapidly. Maybe even become the main stream.
The 1933 $20 was not lawfully released and melted. Far different than the Morgan Dollar melts where it was not recorded which dates hit the pot.
The KEY date is the one with the lowest mintage.
There are anomolies that occur, where the collecting public believes that another issue could be more "scarce" than the key and drives the price higher than the key. It's unusual, but it happens. Just look at the 98-O dollars prior to the early 1960's.
"Most sets have more than one key coin. In Lincoln cents, for instance, the 1909-S V.D.B., the 1914-D, the 1922 Plain and 1955/55 Doubled Die are all considered to be key coins in most grades. In MS65RD the 1926-S is the rarest of the regular issues, so it is considered the "condition rarity key."
So as I said you can have co-key coins, i thought everyone agreed on this. Anyway you can believe what you wish, i think in order to believe the one coin difference as being a key you also have to believe the mintage figures are accurate down to 1 coin. Need I say more?
I did ask Eric for the price on a 100 lot of books so I can give the books away to customers and friends. The book should be a real eye opener to those not well versed in the field ultra moderns and, in particular, eagles and commems.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Eric, Quick Question: do you earn more from your book if I order at certain outlets? Let me/us know. Publishing is notorious for "deep discounts" that all but eliminate any profit for the author, and I just want to make sure you're getting your fair royalty. Amazon is also a notorious place for so-called "reviewers" to dump their free book samples--again killing the rightful earnings of the author.
As for this lively discussion on the plats, my feeling is that the proof plats have a big advantage over the unc-w series for the following reasons:
1) The length of the series is very nice--not too long, not too short. The unc-w series IS definitely too short to get excited about except as part of a larger series.
2) The proofs just look nicer.
3) The earlier designs of the proofs have much more appealing themes than the later dates of the unc-ws. The judicial series is nicely executed, but I for one am tired of the government glorifying itself on coins, and I'll bet many other collectors feel the same way.
What's fun about the proofs, too, is that it's highly uncertain which of the dates will be the hardest to locate. After following this series for several years, it seems likely that a coin with a higher official mintage figure may end up being one of the most difficult to obtain. I'm just very intrigued by how many of these coins from the years 1997 to 2002 might have been melted down.
I agree with 7/8. Furthermore, the supply of all Plats has been reduced in 2009, and the likelihood is that it's going to stay that way.
The Regular Uncs from 1997 to 2003 are the real gems (best-looking) in this series, in my opinion. Whether or not attrition has taken it's toll is anyone's guess.
All Plats are scarce, supply has been reduced, the mines have serious problems with electrical supply and cooling capacity, and investor demand is healthy along with rising pm prices.
What's not to like? Pick the dog of the series and you'll come out just fine. Pick the winner, and it's all gravy.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Actually I rather like it when statements (and especially if they are believed) such as that by 7/8 are made. Go ahead and believe that and I will keep looking for the actual rarities. How many times do we need to trot out the example of the 1931 S cent vs. the 1914 D, which is the simplest example. I guess we always have to beleive that the mintage supercedes what actually happens to the coins minted, be they melted by government or outside government entities or dumped in the ocean or sent to Ecuador or whatever. May simply inserting the "IMO" might be a better idea?
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Actually I rather like it when statements (and especially if they are believed) such as that by 7/8 are made. Go ahead and believe that and I will keep looking for the actual rarities. How many times do we need to trot out the example of the 1931 S cent vs. the 1914 D, which is the simplest example. I guess we always have to beleive that the mintage supercedes what actually happens to the coins minted, be they melted by government or outside government entities or dumped in the ocean or sent to Ecuador or whatever. May simply inserting the "IMO" might be a better idea?
Lacking empirical data, there is no way to say that the Burnished "W" Uncs aren't the scarcest coins in the series. Everything is conjecture at this point, except that the mintages are what they are. Respectfully, jmski
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
and barring any other factual evidence to the contrary, the burnished plats are the rarest of the series.
What I don't understand is that no one picked up on the problem with the modern proof surfaces bing so damn ill prepared that they eventually cloud or get an ugly tone to them....................
It certainly keeps me away from investing heavily in those issues......when you break out that nice PR70DCAM a few years from now and see cloudiness in the mirrors or ugly splotchy toning, there goes your investment.....up in smoke.....
This happens frequently on the proof gold spouses and now to the Buffalo proofs....even when they are .999 or .9999.....has to be surface contaminents, certainly not an alloy issue, or is it?
Comments
<< <i>Regarding these FS Labels....I think the uninitiated foreigners (like myself) would feel somehow that slabs with the FS Labels are "better"/more exclusive and more "American" because of the flag.... actually it's a fantastic piece of marketing from PCGS (whether you agree with it or not)....
JCoin >>
I hope that the TPGs produce many more "special" artistic labels in the future. Many of the recent ones have been an attractive complement to the coins. Sort of like the artistic cachets for First Day Covers made for stamp collectors.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>
<< <i>Regarding these FS Labels....I think the uninitiated foreigners (like myself) would feel somehow that slabs with the FS Labels are "better"/more exclusive and more "American" because of the flag.... actually it's a fantastic piece of marketing from PCGS (whether you agree with it or not)....
JCoin >>
I hope that the TPGs produce many more "special" artistic labels in the future. Many of the recent ones have been an attractive complement to the coins. Sort of like the artistic cachets for First Day Covers made for stamp collectors. >>
The NGC Buff. First Year of Issue labels are nice as well. The only thing is with the Proof sets, since 2008 was not the first year of issue of the $50 proof, the $50 has an ER or a generic label, while the fractionals could have the FYOI labels.
As has been said many times, but perhaps bears repeating, a key to the future value of the 2008 w buffs depends in part on whether The Mint does these issues in the future. It is likely that future issues would sell in much higher #s leaving the 08 Ws as keys, but it I could see it detracting from the 08 Ws value as they would not be unique.
Simply fantastic coins. I sure wish that I had put my 08 W plat $ into more Buffs!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Regarding these FS Labels....I think the uninitiated foreigners (like myself) would feel somehow that slabs with the FS Labels are "better"/more exclusive and more "American" because of the flag.... actually it's a fantastic piece of marketing from PCGS (whether you agree with it or not)....
JCoin >>
I hope that the TPGs produce many more "special" artistic labels in the future. Many of the recent ones have been an attractive complement to the coins. Sort of like the artistic cachets for First Day Covers made for stamp collectors. >>
The NGC Buff. First Year of Issue labels are nice as well. The only thing is with the Proof sets, since 2008 was not the first year of issue of the $50 proof, the $50 has an ER or a generic label, while the fractionals could have the FYOI labels.
>>
Raufus I find this very interesting...have you got photos of the 2006-W Buff label with ER & FYOI as well as the 2008-W fractionals with the same?
JCoin
The FYOI Buff. labels first appeared for the 2008 W Buffs. (as far as I know - I've never seen an 06 buff in one).
I do have the 06 W Buff proof (there was no 06 W Unc, just 06 business strike Uncs.). Back in 06, NGC was using red "First Strike", as opposed to the blue "Early Release" labels that they currently use.
This change was in recognition of the very well documented fact - by The Mint no less - that the order in which coins are released has no bearing on the order in which they were made.
In fact, the whole "first strike" concept dates back to when the first coins off of the dies were the best with respect to details, and the dies - being hand made -were used until they cracked. Thus, in earlier times, the "first strike" coins often had better detail. Currently, the dies for numismatic coins especially, are replaced often.
With respect to 08 W buffs, one can assemble an 08 W unc set where all of the coins have the FYOI label, since 08 was the first year of issue for all of the 08 W unc. buffs.
This, as previously mentioned, is not the case with the Proof $50 - which can be had with the ER but not FYOI label, while the fractionals can have the FYOI label.
I have all of the above and would be happy to post pics of them.
Unfortunately, I'm not very handy with Photobucket and posting pics on this forum, but I can slog through the process and have done it before.
I won't have time to do this until Sunday. So, if someone else can post the pics for JCoin, please do. If not, I'll gladly do so on Sunday when I have time.
Hope that this helps.
Ron
<< <i>Hi JCoin-
The FYOI Buff. labels first appeared for the 2008 W Buffs. (as far as I know - I've never seen an 06 buff in one).
I do have the 06 W Buff proof (there was no 06 W Unc, just 06 business strike Uncs.). Back in 06, NGC was using red "First Strike", as opposed to the blue "Early Release" labels that they currently use.
This change was in recognition of the very well documented fact - by The Mint no less - that the order in which coins are released has no bearing on the order in which they were made.
In fact, the whole "first strike" concept dates back to when the first coins off of the dies were the best with respect to details, and the dies - being hand made -were used until they cracked. Thus, in earlier times, the "first strike" coins often had better detail. Currently, the dies for numismatic coins especially, are replaced often.
With respect to 08 W buffs, one can assemble an 08 W unc set where all of the coins have the FYOI label, since 08 was the first year of issue for all of the 08 W unc. buffs.
This, as previously mentioned, is not the case with the Proof $50 - which can be had with the ER but not FYOI label, while the fractionals can have the FYOI label.
I have all of the above and would be happy to post pics of them.
Unfortunately, I'm not very handy with Photobucket and posting pics on this forum, but I can slog through the process and have done it before.
I won't have time to do this until Sunday. So, if someone else can post the pics for JCoin, please do. If not, I'll gladly do so on Sunday when I have time.
Hope that this helps.
Ron >>
Thx Ron, Very kind of you....dont worry if it's too much trouble....I was just wondering. Too expensive for me to buy now anyway....
This is likely a good omen for both............
True, but it's *great* riding around in a free car for years and years while it gets that way.
<<This is likely a good omen for both............>>
I'm also not seeing any 2008-W Plats (raw or slabbed) being offered by Modern Coin Mart at the moment either...for whatever that's worth...
This assumes the fractional plats and $50 W MS buffs stay closed. This looks likely at this point.
Book is done so I have time to look into other things.
Eric
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110503481481&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
In order to model a coins likely behavior long-term the first thing you have to do is determine how the coin will be collected at maturity. Is the coin the key date of a substantial series where relative rarity in set will determine its value? If this is the case then total population and how rare the key is in comparison to the other siblings and semi keys can give us insight into its price relative to the common dates. A set thats too short or one that lacks some form of design cohesion is effectively a stand-alone type coin to a certain degree and is extremely hard to model.
So back to your question about the $25 and $50 ms platinum Judicial eagles:
If you model them as a 3 coin set the total population is less than 9,000 coins. This can be a problem because large numbers of common dates are effectively silent advertisements for the set and its keys. We also like to see a stand out key thats dramatically rarer than its next closest sibling(s). A clear king is desirable as opposed to a duopoly because it concentrates the key date effect. The 2006w and 2008w plats are closer in mintage than I would like to see and as a distinct 3 coin set they don’t have a common date population large enough to drive them.
If you model them as keys to the mint state set that includes the 1997-2003 reverse proofs and 2004-2008 matte finish issues then the 2,xxx mintage “w” plats become a incredibly tight bottleneck in a total series population of well over 200,000 members. Very high valuations would be possible but there is a problem. The platinum complex as Wondercoins likes to call them have a great deal of design variety in them so history teaches us that the set will not be collected by date but by type. So I would not count on much help from the date based series because their collector base probably will not develop well.
If you model for example the 2008 Judicial $50 plat as the key to the 18 coin type set then the models become wonderful and 5-10 grand is NO problem.
Cameo Proofs Mintage
1997 Cameo Proof -Eagle Over The Sun ....15,431
1998 Cameo Proof –New England Coast ....13,836
1999 Cameo Proof – Wetlands .......11,103
2000 Cameo Proof – Heartland .......11,049
2001 Cameo Proof – South West ....8,254
2002 Cameo Proof – North West ......8,772
2003 Cameo Proof – Patriotic Vigilance ....7,131
2004 Cameo Proof – Seated America .......5,063
2005 Cameo Proof – Plenty ...........5,942
2006 Cameo Proof – Legislative ....7,649
2007 Cameo Proof – Presidential ....22,873
2008 Cameo Proof – Judicial .........4,020
Reverse Proofs
1997-2003 Reverse Proof “Bullion” – Eagle Over The Sun ....158,349
2007 Reverse Proof “Anniversary” – Presidential ....16,873
Mint State Finish Issues
2004 –2008 Mint State “Bullion” – Eagle Over the Sun ....52,852
2006 Mint State “w” – Legislative ....2,577
2007 Mint State “w” – Presidential ....3,635
2008 Mint State “w” – Judicial ....2,253
Total = 18 type coins with over a third of a million total high grade population.
The last way to look at the 2008 Judicial plats is stand alone type coins. They are amazingly rare design based coins. They are about the 18th and 20th rarest design based mint state issues in the last 200 years. First and second in the last 95 years. The only problem with pure stand alone type coins is physical appearance is almost as important as rarity. These mint state coins are nice looking but no one I know of calls them stunning.
So there you have it. My long-winded way of saying I don’t know. They are however good buys at today’s prices in my view. Everyone that likes moderns and can afford one should have either the quarter or half in their collection, kind of like the 99w mint state gold. You don’t want to be caught without one if the market sees them for what they are because they will allow you to complete the set without a great deal of difficulty (cost) if you wish to do so later. On the other hand you may not want to be knee deep in them because it’s difficult to “determine their value” and “determine the certainty” .
Eric
<< <i>OLC,
In order to model a coins likely behavior long-term the first thing you have to do is determine how the coin will be collected at maturity. Is the coin the key date of a substantial series where relative rarity in set will determine its value? If this is the case then total population and how rare the key is in comparison to the other siblings and semi keys can give us insight into its price relative to the common dates. A set thats too short or one that lacks some form of design cohesion is effectively a stand-alone type coin to a certain degree and is extremely hard to model.
So back to your question about the $25 and $50 ms platinum Judicial eagles:
If you model them as a 3 coin set the total population is less than 9,000 coins. This can be a problem because large numbers of common dates are effectively silent advertisements for the set and its keys. We also like to see a stand out key thats dramatically rarer than its next closest sibling(s). A clear king is desirable as opposed to a duopoly because it concentrates the key date effect. The 2006w and 2008w plats are closer in mintage than I would like to see and as a distinct 3 coin set they don’t have a common date population large enough to drive them.
If you model them as keys to the mint state set that includes the 1997-2003 reverse proofs and 2004-2008 matte finish issues then the 2,xxx mintage “w” plats become a incredibly tight bottleneck in a total series population of well over 200,000 members. Very high valuations would be possible but there is a problem. The platinum complex as Wondercoins likes to call them have a great deal of design variety in them so history teaches us that the set will not be collected by date but by type. So I would not count on much help from the date based series because their collector base probably will not develop well.
If you model for example the 2008 Judicial $50 plat as the key to the 18 coin type set then the models become wonderful and 5-10 grand is NO problem.
Cameo Proofs Mintage
1997 Cameo Proof -Eagle Over The Sun ....15,431
1998 Cameo Proof –New England Coast ....13,836
1999 Cameo Proof – Wetlands .......11,103
2000 Cameo Proof – Heartland .......11,049
2001 Cameo Proof – South West ....8,254
2002 Cameo Proof – North West ......8,772
2003 Cameo Proof – Patriotic Vigilance ....7,131
2004 Cameo Proof – Seated America .......5,063
2005 Cameo Proof – Plenty ...........5,942
2006 Cameo Proof – Legislative ....7,649
2007 Cameo Proof – Presidential ....22,873
2008 Cameo Proof – Judicial .........4,020
Reverse Proofs
1997-2003 Reverse Proof “Bullion” – Eagle Over The Sun ....158,349
2007 Reverse Proof “Anniversary” – Presidential ....16,873
Mint State Finish Issues
2004 –2008 Mint State “Bullion” – Eagle Over the Sun ....52,852
2006 Mint State “w” – Legislative ....2,577
2007 Mint State “w” – Presidential ....3,635
2008 Mint State “w” – Judicial ....2,253
Total = 18 type coins with over a third of a million total high grade population.
The last way to look at the 2008 Judicial plats is stand alone type coins. They are amazingly rare design based coins. They are about the 18th and 20th rarest design based mint state issues in the last 200 years. First and second in the last 95 years. The only problem with pure stand alone type coins is physical appearance is almost as important as rarity. These mint state coins are nice looking but no one I know of calls them stunning.
So there you have it. My long-winded way of saying I don’t know. They are however good buys at today’s prices in my view. Everyone that likes moderns and can afford one should have either the quarter or half in their collection, kind of like the 99w mint state gold. You don’t want to be caught without one if the market sees them for what they are because they will allow you to complete the set without a great deal of difficulty (cost) if you wish to do so later. On the other hand you may not want to be knee deep in them because it’s difficult to “determine their value” and “determine the certainty” .
Eric >>
<< <i>Thanks a million. I ordered your book online probably over a month ago and can't wait to receive. >>
Is the book you are talking about titled "Modern Commemorative Coins: Invest Today - Profit Tomorrow" by Eric Jordan?
If so, will it be available in hardback?
Thanks.
Just remember, the key is the key, even if by 1 coin difference.
Just take the 94-P Morgan vs the 93-S key. 110k vs 100k. Might as well be 1 coin with the total pops of all Morgans out there. The 93-S is far and away the key and it's price shows it.
The keys of the plat series will do very well in the future. Don't be so concerned about how "close" the key is to the semi-key in mintage.
So, it's safe to say i'm not in the camp that buys the duopoly concept. Not a bad theory, but collectors always focus on the keys no matter how close the mintage of the next closest semi-key.
eric's book on modern commemoratives at Amazon
Alas, it isn't autographed.
Pick the series profile that you think will produce the most pronounced key price:
Mintages
Set one
4,050
3,635
6,300
4,200
2,253
Set two
3,635
2,577
2,253
Set three
10,025
10,041
Set three has the highest total pop but the key dates relative rarity is worthless (that's a real two coin series by the way) so key date price differential never developed.
Set two has a low total population and its key date is shallow so for it to pull substantial key date premiums over time (like 3-50 times the price of a common sibling) the market needs to look at them as desirable stand alone type coins or as the key to a larger type set. My point is relative rarity in a three coin series is not what will drive these coins price. A three coin set is almost no set at all.
Easy, set #1. It has a larger series population in the hands of the public and the coin that stands head and shoulders over its siblings is the 2,253 coin. The tightest relative bottleneck in a strong series is the best coin all else equal.
I collect the changing reverse mint state plats as a continuation of the proof plat set and as great type coins and IF the rest of the market does so too then the coins will be great but I don't look to a pathetic 3 coin 9,000 mintage series to drive themselves from a relative rarity perspective.
So far the prices for the plats have not reflected the mintages they gave us, so something is not right. I agree with Eric that the proofs have an easier to understand situation. However I also have to say that a very large population of coins is not always required to see appreciation in low mintage coins or low mintage series.
Someday I think the unc plats will have there day based on the numbers alone. That is now now though according to the market, it may take 5 years.
I am just thankful for the gold buffalos, there is no need to analyze those.
The 1997-2003 APE MS coins are Reverse Proof?
Any chance of a photo or URL to illustrate?
JCoin
A KEY is a KEY by 1 coin. The definition is plain and simple.
Melting or destruction of coins may cause scarcity in available examples to purchase, but keys are measured by mintage. The lowest minatge is the KEY. Case closed.
As for the Gold Buffalo's, I did well with those too, but dont be surprised if you see the bubble pop soon.
Eric -
I dont think I agree.
The three year series changing reverse plats offers true rarity and a short set to complete for the ordinary collector.
Long drawn out series with high intrinsic bullion values drive collectors away. A nice three year run of 1/4's brings a good entry level price point, large enough coins to appreciate the design, and a short 3 coin set.
7/8
As far as your comment about series becoming too long and it discouraging collector growth because the sets completion cost jump up is completely justified. When I talk about total population of a series I am not talking about wanting lots and lots of members in a set. What is the optimal number of coins in a set has been a topic of thought many times for me in the last two years but there does not seam to be a ideal number of coins in a set from a series popularity perspective. We do know that the ideal length of a set is at least influenced by the price of the common dates. Obviously 50 members of the Fifty state quarter silver proofs worked out just fine. 25 looks like its too many for $50 cameo proof gold eagles because after over two decades of running the so called keys have not been able to stretch out from the common dates in a meaningful way. $40,000 to buy the set is rough knowing its still open and its so called keys are fairly common.
The smallest series that I can think of right off hand that displays good in series relative rarity key date development is the seven member 1936 to 1942 proof Walkers and Mercuries. I talk to collectors and dealers throughout the country and I here from time to time that the mint state modern gold eagle sets are getting so many members that the cost of the total sets is starting to discourage broader collector interest for collecting the one once coins and the 4 coin sets by date. Is 7-25 members the ideal range for a set whose members are a grand each? I don't know.
What is going to make the 2008 w plats great in time in my opinion has nothing to do with their pathetic 3 coin series. Its looking down a type coin ranking for the last 200 years and seeing the 2008 judicial quarter coming in at number 20 and their Legislative siblings not far behind that will get the collectors thinking to them selves I need to pick those up! That and proof platinum set collectors continuing on to finish out the 17 or 18 coin type set.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about how much assistance two slightly higher mintage siblings can give a Key in its quest for super coin status. I think they will have their day regardless.
By this standard, the key date $20 St. Gaudens with motto is the 1908-S with a 22K mintage.
The 1933 has a mintage of 445,000, so it's a common date.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Wondercoin
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
It looks like the NGC 08 W gold buffs have been bringing some much higher $ in recent days. I noted a PF70 FS set which went for over $11K BIN - WOW. These buffs are just amazing. How much higher will they go? Will they ever come down? Many of us I'm sure keep thinking that they're peaking and will come down, but they just seem to keep going up.
Do you really believe that the $10 LOC at $5G was due to promotion? Maybe in your neck of the woods, but not mine.
It seems to me like that coin was "cornered" which drove greysheet bids thru the roof and the cornering party then begins to move them out at inflated prices.
If you are going to do any real promotions, you better have 10,000 pieces of a real popular design and theme, not an esoteric commem.
I think the best thing the plats have going for them right now is that little pathetic 3 year run.
It's a short run with amazingly low mintages.
It has a good design theme - 3 branches of government.
It also differs from any other regular issue plat due to it's changing reverse - no eagles over the sun.
As for the proofs, i'm not saying they aren't beautiful, but one thing all of you fail to mention - the proof surfaces and their deterioration over time. Do I really want to hold some of these coins when over time "mirrors" get cloudy, that "invisible" fingerprint on those mirrors just happens to show up 3-5 years out, etc.
It's happened far too many times to both proof plats, gold and even .999 fuine buff proofs and the .9999 first lady proofs. Try to sell one of those babies when they tone up or worse.
I know quite a few buyers who purposely don't even entertain buying the proofs for this very reason.
How quick you are to point out a coin where our government has essentially told us they melted the entire mintage of 1933 double eagles....
So, isnt the revised mintage 1? Or, lets at least say 11 counting the specimens currently seized from their rightful owners.
Which coin is the key?
I'd say the 1933.
Whats the key of the Morgan series? Whats the key for the Standing Qtrs? How about Merc's?
Wow.....it happens to be the lowest mintage.......what a surprise.
Yes, the LOC (as well as some of the 95/96 gold commems mentioned) were "targeted" coins. They met certain parameters that resulted in them becoming such targets. Targeted coins can rise in price well beyond anything logically "charted" using mintage figures as a key to value. Ths is tied to "demand" being the key factor to a rising price. For example, there are plenty of wonderful pattern coins from the 19th century with mintages of less than 100 total coins produced (even less than 50) that sell for LESS than an LOC with more than a 6,000 mintage (even 140 years later)! If burnished platinum follows the path of many of these pattern coins (due to relatively less demand), then a 2,250 mintage alone may not drive a large price increase as you might expect. The key is to understand the "demand" factor for these coins and try to be a "step ahead" of such demand.
Wondercoin
Our government also melted huge quantities of Morgans, so that needs to be taken into consideration also.
Bowers' Encyclopedia estimates that about twice as many 1894-P Morgan dollars survive as 1893-S, so survivorship drives the price, not original mintage.
Perhaps a better example is Barber quarters, which do not involve government melts. Which is the "key" - the 1913-S (mintage 40,000) or the 1901-S (mintage 72,664)? The 1901-S is more than 3 times the price of the 1913-S, due to fewer survivors. That makes it the key in my book.
The 1914-D vs. 1931-S Lincoln cent is another example.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I just ordered Eric's book.
<< <i>Comments on this one??
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110503481481&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT >>
Looks like the high bid was withdrawn, the box closed at $31.05 including shipping.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
This is not an opportunity to make money pushing books. Its about influencing the way these wonderful series of ours are perceived. We have a great story about great young series with bright futures. Tomorrows numismatic treasures. One thing I have noticed about the coin books business its a monkey see monkey do line of work. If this moderns text sells well then KP will be even hotter on moderns than they are now and the guys at Whitman will have to get their mess together on moderns or give up market share.
Guys the Mint gave us these great series many of which are now closed and all we need to do is run with the ball the way the classic guys do and we will come into the mainstream rapidly. Maybe even become the main stream.
The 1933 $20 was not lawfully released and melted. Far different than the Morgan Dollar melts where it was not recorded which dates hit the pot.
The KEY date is the one with the lowest mintage.
There are anomolies that occur, where the collecting public believes that another issue could be more "scarce" than the key and drives the price higher than the key. It's unusual, but it happens. Just look at the 98-O dollars prior to the early 1960's.
I agree with that.
However, my original point is correct where the KEY is the KEY even only by 1 coin. In a perfect world, there is one less available.
"Most sets have more than one key coin. In Lincoln cents, for instance, the 1909-S V.D.B., the 1914-D, the 1922 Plain and 1955/55 Doubled Die are all considered to be key coins in most grades. In MS65RD the 1926-S is the rarest of the regular issues, so it is considered the "condition rarity key."
So as I said you can have co-key coins, i thought everyone agreed on this. Anyway you can believe what you wish, i think in order to believe the one coin difference as being a key you also have to believe the mintage figures are accurate down to 1 coin. Need I say more?
Wondercoin
Quick Question: do you earn more from your book if I order at certain outlets? Let me/us know. Publishing is notorious for "deep discounts" that all but eliminate any profit for the author, and I just want to make sure you're getting your fair royalty. Amazon is also a notorious place for so-called "reviewers" to dump their free book samples--again killing the rightful earnings of the author.
As for this lively discussion on the plats, my feeling is that the proof plats have a big advantage over the unc-w series for the following reasons:
1) The length of the series is very nice--not too long, not too short. The unc-w series IS definitely too short to get excited about except as part of a larger series.
2) The proofs just look nicer.
3) The earlier designs of the proofs have much more appealing themes than the later dates of the unc-ws. The judicial series is nicely executed, but I for one am tired of the government glorifying itself on coins, and I'll bet many other collectors feel the same way.
What's fun about the proofs, too, is that it's highly uncertain which of the dates will be the hardest to locate. After following this series for several years, it seems likely that a coin with a higher official mintage figure may end up being one of the most difficult to obtain. I'm just very intrigued by how many of these coins from the years 1997 to 2002 might have been melted down.
Well, just Love coins, period.
The KEY has the lowest mintage.
Period.
Auction Result
The Regular Uncs from 1997 to 2003 are the real gems (best-looking) in this series, in my opinion. Whether or not attrition has taken it's toll is anyone's guess.
All Plats are scarce, supply has been reduced, the mines have serious problems with electrical supply and cooling capacity, and investor demand is healthy along with rising pm prices.
What's not to like? Pick the dog of the series and you'll come out just fine. Pick the winner, and it's all gravy.
I knew it would happen.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Lacking empirical data, there is no way to say that the Burnished "W" Uncs aren't the scarcest coins in the series. Everything is conjecture at this point, except that the mintages are what they are. Respectfully, jmski
I knew it would happen.
and barring any other factual evidence to the contrary, the burnished plats are the rarest of the series.
What I don't understand is that no one picked up on the problem with the modern proof surfaces bing so damn ill prepared that they eventually cloud or get an ugly tone to them....................
It certainly keeps me away from investing heavily in those issues......when you break out that nice PR70DCAM a few years from now and see cloudiness in the mirrors or ugly splotchy toning, there goes your investment.....up in smoke.....
This happens frequently on the proof gold spouses and now to the Buffalo proofs....even when they are .999 or .9999.....has to be surface contaminents, certainly not an alloy issue, or is it?