<< <i>2. I have been involved in ALL of his rips. I do not personally believe Gary is sending out 100% resealed or non-legit packs out to the participants. The reason I say this is b/c I just got my '77 baseball pack back from PSA --- and it graded a PSA 8. This pack was from a Gary-sponsored rip.
>>
Just a thought here, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading in thread that some members stated beforehand that they were thinking of keeping some to get graded under the pack special. In fact as I type this Im positive. Maybe those boxes got to them unsearched. Just a thought, correct me if this is not true.
I'll take that as a compliment. I'm not tryin' to be political but rather fair, compassionate and just.
It's important to maintain a process that is both honorable and dignified - since the dignity of our board is what we'll be left with when the smoke clears.
Proving he did anything is hard enough - jurisdiction is complicated - evidence will be a factor - witnesses are all over the map....
In the end - if Gary leaves - the only thing left is us. I want outsiders to say - this forum has decorum.
Perhaps some money is lost - but never our dignity.
mike "
-----------------------------------
I agree with the above, tempered with a large degree of skepticism regarding future endeavors such as this.
One important point -- this is not a court of law and "innocent until proven guity" has no bearing or jurisdiction here. I have been hung out to dry and called a fraud numerous times on here without even a scrap of evidence and -- ironically -- you did not come in on your white horse making broad, sweeping calls for "decorum."
Just my opinion, my thoughts. >>
jm
I'll have to apologize for missing it.
This one is getting a ton of attention - mine included. I'm not sure what/when you're referencing.
I would rather you not direct your ire at me - I've done nothing wrong - this is now more of a global issue.
I made the earlier statement since people were losing sight of why Lee posted in the first place.
<< <i>Just a random thought - did Topps wax packs for the years in question have obvious enough sequencing that someone could open a few packs from a box and tell where the "money cards" would be (sorta like '89 UD)? >>
Not by packs postition in a box like UD, but the card coalition certainly is predictable and if someone knows the sequence and can identify the card on the back of they pack, the certainly could determine with a great success rate if the money card is in that pack.
This pack is from the late 70's / early 80s bust. It is the only pack I didn't rip --- I decided to get it graded to offset some of the cost of the rip after I saw several posts from people who ripped the 77s and saw they were warped/damaged.
This alone doesn't prove Gary's overall guilt or innocence.... it just means either PSA mis-graded my cards or he did sent out some untampered packs.
-Tom
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Wow this guy has dozens of members on here accussing him and he dosen't want to take the time to read the entire thread but decides to go to sleep instead
I know if that was me and i had well respected members of this board accusing me of what he's being accused of i'd stay up all night answering questions to clear myself
<< <i>Wow this guy has dozens of members on here accussing him and he dosen't want to take the time to read the entire thread but decides to go to sleep instead
I know if that was me and i had well respected members of this board accusing me of what he's being accused of i'd stay up all night answering questions to clear myself
And not anwering them via PM's
Dave >>
Reminds of the line from Usual Suspects:
AGENT KUJAN: The first thing I learned on the job, know what it was? How to spot a murderer. Let's say you arrest three guys for the same killing. Put them all in jail overnight. The next morning, whoever is sleeping is your man. If you're guilty, you know you're caught, you get some rest - let your guard down, you follow?
I spent the day in court today and was confronted repeatedly with the concept that mere allegations, met with denials, are often "a wash," if the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt."
Is the "evidence" clear and convincing? I do not see it to be quite so, yet.
By a preponderance of the evidence supporting the allegations laid out here, it appears to me that the subject engaged in some activities that were unfair.
I have read the entire thread. Here are a few more thoughts.
1. Never use a middleman again. If BBCE is too busy to receive payment and ship, forget the project.
2. I have purposely stayed out of the post 75-mini breaks because of the obvious - to me - attempt by the subject to takeover too much "responsibility." The FeedBack issue told me what no one else seemed to want to hear.
(Additionally, I was totally non-plused by the notion that the 75-mini photos taken by the subject became proprietary; absent my money and the money of other participants, there would have been nothing to photograph.)
3. ZEF inquired point blank: Why are you insisting on doing the shipping yourself? I took that question and the response under one-second advisement, and concluded that I had made the right decision about not participating.
Most of you understand that I am not a confrontational person on the internet; I have to do that all day long in my real life. And, my thoughts expressed hereinabove are not meant as a slam/bash. However, as good as most of us are at busting card-pirates, some of us forgot that the biggest scams sometimes happen in our own backyards and are perpetrated by people we think we know ---- and trust.
If Gary decides that he did something that was improper, he need only apologize and make appropriate recompense.
Sometimes temptation or need can cause people to do things that, upon reflection, they decide they should not have done. Taking responsibility for a bad act, even when the shame factor seems huge, is a good way to restore confidence and give time a chance to begin the healing process.
It is a bad thing that this has happened, but hopefully everybody will learn from the experience.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
AGENT KUJAN: The first thing I learned on the job, know what it was? How to spot a murderer. Let's say you arrest three guys for the same killing. Put them all in jail overnight. The next morning, whoever is sleeping is your man. If you're guilty, you know you're caught, you get some rest - let your guard down, you follow?
Ummmm...Mike seems to be like a great guy but I hardly think he is responsible for making all the board members feel warm and fuzzy during a time of personal hardship.
Though I could be wrong...he may be on PSA's payroll!
2. I have purposely stayed out of the post 75-mini breaks because of the obvious - to me - attempt by the subject to takeover too much "responsibility." The FeedBack issue told me what no one else seemed to want to hear. >>
When was this "feedback issue" made public --- and was it really something "no one wanted to hear" --- tonight was the first I'd ever heard about it ... and, of course, I'm quite appalled .---- but I don't think we "didn't want to hear it" --- we just didn't know about it.
-t
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
I can't believe i just read all 21 pages of this thread. I have seen Slander, Character assassination,someone offering up personal information( By the way, this is a PSA Violation). PSA must be asleep at the wheel tonight. I'm surpised this thread has not gone *POOF*
<< <i>Well if blindflyer expressed his intentions on grading before the packs were shipped, the smart thing to do would be to send him legit packs.
Lee >>
My thoughts exactly. I only remember reading this from awhile back because it got me thinking of sending in some cellos that I have that have McGwire on the front.
I'm a newbie on the boards and didn't take part in the rips. After reading nearly 22 complete pages on this subject, the 2 things that absolutely stand-out at this point... the buying of boxes, wrappers and vending commons that coincide w/ rips that the accused took part in. But the biggest thing... the editing of posts. If he has nothing to hide, then why is he doing a Watergate and trying to destroy anything that could be construed as evidence? I've been lurking on this site for a couple of months now and I remember following the thread on the last rip thinking he was getting a bit pushy about doing the shipping himself, at least IMO. I'm learning alot on these boards , but I today I wish it wasn't something that affected a lot of posters in such a negative way. Sorry to those that believe those deals weren't on the up & up.
1. As I mentioned a few pages back --- this is definitely one of the finest examples of "mob mentality" I have ever witnessed.
2. A majority of you didn't even participate in any of the rips nor have any real idea what was or wasn't pulled in the rips. While I agree that Gary looks guilty by association of his ebay purchases, fleer bkball pictures, vanishing posts, and going to bed early rather than respond to everyone --- that doesn't okay it for dozens of folks to throw out accusations without a full notion of what the rips actually produced.
3. Zefs picture of the '84 Football boxes, to me, is most telling. I believe that Gary used the board rips as an opportunity to get pristine Steve Hart/BBCE product on our dime. He took the BBCE boxes to keep for himself --- while shipping out boxes/packs of like product from his own collection. This provided an overall upgraded personal supply/collection of unopened material for Gary. I am not certain how many (if any) of what he sent us were resealed. My previous posts show that I have received confirmed PSA-graded untampered packs ('77 baseball) and good cards ('84 Elway) from Gary-sponsored rips. However, overall, none of the rips have been "worth the money" to me. This, however, proves nothing.
4. Gary owes the board an explanation. He should come clean with his method, intentions, and actions. Be straight --- did he switch out boxes as I suggest in #3 above? Was he re-sealing? Why do all the ebay purchases coincide with our rips? Etc Etc --- he has handled $1000s of transaction dollars from us. We as a community deserve an explanation.
-Tom
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
i have posted my replys and explantions in a new thread i did not go to bed i just could not stomach all this. half of you were not involved and just kept attacking everytime i tried to answer and the only thing i erased was the 84 case break nothing else anyways look up the thread and either its good enough for you or not either way keep an eye on my ebay account and you will see everything i said is true.
i just noticed the pics from the football rip heres the truth the 777880and 84 box did not come from steve. we knew steve did not have a 77 and 80 box when i placed the order he was out of 78 also. so what did i do paid more for the 78 box somewhere else then steve sold them so i ponied up extra for that damn 78 box
and those of you feeling the need to keep blowing up my cell phone keep it up. there is alot of slander and defimation of character in this thread especially the one not involved who offers up mypersonal info. and as far as pms only 5 people have had the cones to talk to me personally.
I'll ask again: please explain why the 1986-87 Fleer empty box and 1974 Topps empty box you purchased on eBay are the exact same boxes (same markings, damage, etc.) as the ones you claimed to have purchased as whole boxes recently. Show us the sealed packs (front and back) and the boxes side by side. Easiest way in the world to prove us wrong, and restore credability here.
easy read my explanation post. i purchased legit packs that had no boxes and bought empty boxes to put them with. and the 86 box is not the one from ebay and 74 empty boxes ive bought 4 this month alone
========================================================================================== Wednesday February 28, 2007 11:07 PM
Now heres my good excuse for not getting the packs out today got a call at 7am this morning from an old friend whos neihbor had something he wanted to sell> So I drove 5 hours to san diego to secure this deal from a very nice old man. Im stoked I've never owned a 86 fleer basketball box before. The boxes arent in mint condition but not bad considering this guy is not a collector. Even better he thibnks he might have more
Please explain how this coincides with your now stated comments regarding the boxes.
<< <i>easy read my explanation post. i purchased legit packs that had no boxes and bought empty boxes to put them with. and the 86 box is not the one from ebay and 74 empty boxes ive bought 4 this month alone >>
<< <i>Just a random thought - did Topps wax packs for the years in question have obvious enough sequencing that someone could open a few packs from a box and tell where the "money cards" would be (sorta like '89 UD)? >>
I can speak for the late 70's stuff, there is a sequence based off the card showing but not where the pack is located in the box.
based on our mob mentality here, i would say blind flyer is in "cahoots" w/ gary. why not, why would he cheat everyone else and let blindflyer have good cards?
i am being sarcastic, but also pointing out the vanity in everyone bashing 1 person who has not been found guilty of anything.
Wow, Gary -- you have taken a hobby that is supposed to be fun, a pastime for collectors to remember their childhoods and the thrills of ripping unopened product -- and you have turned it all into a greedy enterprise for yourself while ruining it not only for the collectors whom you screwed, but also for the dozens of others out there (like myself) who didn't participate, watched closely and celebrated the fun the others were having, but will likely never participate because of your reprehensible actions. You have ruined it.
Thanks, ass.hole.
I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
I was going through my cards last night with gloves on to look at them one more time. My 1986 cards were all centered 65-35 or better, but my two star cards Elway and Dolphins team card are miscut, and Buster Rhymes too. Is that normal? That two cards would be miscut while the rest would be normal? Or should the whole pack be miscut? I also go doubles of the same card in the same pack? Does that happen? How is the collation process work at Topps?
I've enjoyed these rips, but unfortunately, I'm not sure I'd ever trust anyone to do these again.
And "breaking" the trust of a group like this is a terrible, cruel thing to do.
I will try to avoid the mob mentality, as I think we need to focus, strictly on what has occurred, and how/if/what we recover from this point.
As far as the "investigation" goes, I only have this to add:
A. Where there is smoke, there is fire.
B. Some packs may pass inspection by PSA/Steve Hart. For a pack resealer to make for a profitable venture, he only needs to open packs until he hits something big. Ergo, only xx% of the packs may have been opened.
C. In the event that we need to proceed, legally, my girlfriend is a lawyer, and if we can approximate the number of people and money involved, I can see how we need to proceed.
IF these allegations are true, gary should just come clean, refund the people involved and move on. denying it just adds insult to injury and makes it much worse. i think it certainly would carry some weight with us if he does come clean. i am sure it is a tough pill to swallow, but thats the first step of correcting this problem.
Since I started this thread, I feel some type of duty to keep it focused on its original intent. As I see it, here are things still up for debate:
- I know most of you are trying to help, but the piling on of insults to Gary is giving this thread the feeling of a mob mentality. We are not out to roast the guy, we just want explanations of why all the fishy have been going on. If you don't have anything to say that is directly related to the evidence or the pack rips, please save your thoughts or start another thread. We are simply trying to get the facts out and insults and personal thoughts interfere with that information. With that said, those of us that feel ripped off appreciate the support, as I'm sure Gary appreciates the support of those that have taken his side.
- Just to make it clear- Gary has only (as far as I know) edited the post in which he was trying to start an 84 FB case rip. Please stop bringing up the fact that he's edited all of his posts because that is not true.
- There is still no accounting for the exact overlap in wrappers, singles, and boxes Gary bought from ebay, and the boxes and packs we've been ripping. Are we to believe that 21 out of the 33 items purchased are just coincidentally the same things we've been opening? And the explanation that he's selling singles wrappers and boxes as a full lot really hold no weight because it makes absolutely no sense. That's like selling a "make your own resealed box" kit. Besides, he hasn't sold a lot like that once of the stuff he's been buying on ebay. All I see is the 1974 box that really has no part in this discussion because he's selling it as a sealed box, and it isn't related to any of our rips. What does this have to do with the buying of wrappers, singles, and empty boxes? Using an example of selling a sealed box as an excuse for buying wrappers, singles and empty boxes doesn't really help your case.
- The 86 Fleer box he said he bought from an "old man down the street" is ABSOLUTELY the same one he bought on ebay. The markings are EXACTLY alike. As I said before, this would hold up in court. You're caught in a lie here Gary, which totally shoots down your credibility.
- Gary, we're waiting for that pic of your bartop or collage of all the wrappers you've been accumulating, including the 75 minis of which you must have had hundreds.
- As explained before, blindflyer expressed his intent to grade some packs before they were shipped out. Gary would have been idiotic to send him resealed packs. No offense to blindflyer, but his packs being legit really hold no weight in terms of evidence supporting Gary's claims.
- I'll explain again- the reason I brought this to a public forum and not one on one is because: a) There were impending rips and I didn't want people sending you money until this was straightened out, b) There are so many people involved, it has to become a public issue. Everybody has a right to know, and keeping it between you and I makes absolutely no sense. Another reason I haven't mentioned is that if you have been doing shady stuff, I didcn't want to give you a head start in covering your tracks.
Lee
ps- I'm posting this in the original thread and Gary's explanation thread to make sure everybody, including Gary, sees it.
Comments
<< <i>2. I have been involved in ALL of his rips. I do not personally believe Gary is sending out 100% resealed or non-legit packs out to the participants. The reason I say this is b/c I just got my '77 baseball pack back from PSA --- and it graded a PSA 8. This pack was from a Gary-sponsored rip.
>>
Just a thought here, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading in thread that some members stated beforehand that they were thinking of keeping some to get graded under the pack special. In fact as I type this Im positive. Maybe those boxes got to them unsearched. Just a thought, correct me if this is not true.
i think you all should say your sorry now.
julen
T G I F
RIP GURU
<< <i>Mike writes: jm
I'll take that as a compliment. I'm not tryin' to be political but rather fair, compassionate and just.
It's important to maintain a process that is both honorable and dignified - since the dignity of our board is what we'll be left with when the smoke clears.
Proving he did anything is hard enough - jurisdiction is complicated - evidence will be a factor - witnesses are all over the map....
In the end - if Gary leaves - the only thing left is us. I want outsiders to say - this forum has decorum.
Perhaps some money is lost - but never our dignity.
mike "
-----------------------------------
I agree with the above, tempered with a large degree of skepticism regarding future endeavors such as this.
One important point -- this is not a court of law and "innocent until proven guity" has no bearing or jurisdiction here. I have been hung out to dry and called a fraud numerous times on here without even a scrap of evidence and -- ironically -- you did not come in on your white horse making broad, sweeping calls for "decorum."
Just my opinion, my thoughts. >>
jm
I'll have to apologize for missing it.
This one is getting a ton of attention - mine included. I'm not sure what/when you're referencing.
I would rather you not direct your ire at me - I've done nothing wrong - this is now more of a global issue.
I made the earlier statement since people were losing sight of why Lee posted in the first place.
I'm sorry if you were wronged.
mike
<< <i>Just a random thought - did Topps wax packs for the years in question have obvious enough sequencing that someone could open a few packs from a box and tell where the "money cards" would be (sorta like '89 UD)? >>
Not by packs postition in a box like UD, but the card coalition certainly is predictable and if someone knows the sequence and can identify the card on the back of they pack, the certainly could determine with a great success rate if the money card is in that pack.
My Auctions
<< <i>if tom is correct, then he is obviously not 100% guilty of anything.
i think you all should say your sorry now.
julen
T G I F >>
1. My pack submission literally popped today --- huge coincedance:
1 12537806 1977 TOPPS BASEBALL WAX PACK N/A 8
This pack is from the late 70's / early 80s bust. It is the only pack I didn't rip --- I decided to get it graded to offset some of the cost of the rip after I saw several posts from people who ripped the 77s and saw they were warped/damaged.
This alone doesn't prove Gary's overall guilt or innocence.... it just means either PSA mis-graded my cards or he did sent out some untampered packs.
-Tom
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>
BTW, does he look like Artie Lange (from Howard Stern Show), or is it just me? lol
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>this thread is spiraling downhill quickly....
-t >>
Usually these threads do. But it's been fun as hell.
<< <i>Artie Lange
classic...
For everyone's sake, I hope 80s is innocent.
I know if that was me and i had well respected members of this board accusing me of what he's being accused of i'd stay up all night answering questions to clear myself
And not anwering them via PM's
Dave
<< <i>this thread is spiraling downhill quickly....
-t >>
It's all Zef's fault.
<< <i>Wow this guy has dozens of members on here accussing him and he dosen't want to take the time to read the entire thread but decides to go to sleep instead
I know if that was me and i had well respected members of this board accusing me of what he's being accused of i'd stay up all night answering questions to clear myself
And not anwering them via PM's
Dave >>
Reminds of the line from Usual Suspects:
AGENT KUJAN: The first thing I learned on the job, know what it was? How to spot a murderer. Let's say you arrest three guys for the same killing. Put them all in jail overnight. The next morning, whoever is sleeping is your man. If you're guilty, you know you're caught, you get some rest - let your guard down, you follow?
My Auctions
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
It is usually not possible to "prove" innocence.
I spent the day in court today and was confronted
repeatedly with the concept that mere allegations,
met with denials, are often "a wash," if the standard
is "beyond a reasonable doubt."
Is the "evidence" clear and convincing? I do not see
it to be quite so, yet.
By a preponderance of the evidence supporting the
allegations laid out here, it appears to me that the
subject engaged in some activities that were unfair.
I have read the entire thread. Here are a few more
thoughts.
1. Never use a middleman again. If BBCE is too busy to
receive payment and ship, forget the project.
2. I have purposely stayed out of the post 75-mini breaks
because of the obvious - to me - attempt by the subject
to takeover too much "responsibility." The FeedBack issue
told me what no one else seemed to want to hear.
(Additionally, I was totally non-plused by the notion that the
75-mini photos taken by the subject became proprietary; absent
my money and the money of other participants, there
would have been nothing to photograph.)
3. ZEF inquired point blank: Why are you insisting on
doing the shipping yourself? I took that question and
the response under one-second advisement, and concluded
that I had made the right decision about not participating.
Most of you understand that I am not a confrontational
person on the internet; I have to do that all day long
in my real life. And, my thoughts expressed hereinabove
are not meant as a slam/bash. However, as good as
most of us are at busting card-pirates, some of us
forgot that the biggest scams sometimes happen in
our own backyards and are perpetrated by people we
think we know ---- and trust.
If Gary decides that he did something that was improper,
he need only apologize and make appropriate recompense.
Sometimes temptation or need can cause people to do
things that, upon reflection, they decide they should not
have done. Taking responsibility for a bad act, even when
the shame factor seems huge, is a good way to restore
confidence and give time a chance to begin the healing
process.
It is a bad thing that this has happened, but hopefully
everybody will learn from the experience.
<< <i>
<< <i>this thread is spiraling downhill quickly....
-t >>
Usually these threads do. But it's been fun as hell. >>
Perhaps that's how I missed you getting reamed without evidence jm.
It got buried in all the fun.
mike
AGENT KUJAN: The first thing I learned on the job, know what it was? How to spot a murderer. Let's say you arrest three guys for the same killing. Put them all in jail overnight. The next morning, whoever is sleeping is your man. If you're guilty, you know you're caught, you get some rest - let your guard down, you follow?
Great line, very true
love your posts.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>this thread is spiraling downhill quickly....
-t >>
Usually these threads do. But it's been fun as hell. >>
Perhaps that's how I missed you getting reamed without evidence jm.
It got buried in all the fun.
mike >>
I find that hard to believe but, OK!
Lee
I knew someone had said this!! Tom you stated before they were ordered/shipped that you were thinking of having them graded!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>this thread is spiraling downhill quickly....
-t >>
Usually these threads do. But it's been fun as hell. >>
Perhaps that's how I missed you getting reamed without evidence jm.
It got buried in all the fun.
mike >>
I find that hard to believe but, OK! >>
I was being facetious.
You wanna make this about me?
Fire away.
But, first produce a link to your last "reaming."
I'm sorry but I have no recollection.
If my sense of propriety offends you - offend away.
Again, I've done nothing wrong - I didn't ride in on any white horse.
I just stated why I thought it was important to remember the spirit of Lee's thread and to maintain fairness.
I don't profess to police every event on this board - give me a break - go pick on someone else.
Though I could be wrong...he may be on PSA's payroll!
<< <i>
2. I have purposely stayed out of the post 75-mini breaks
because of the obvious - to me - attempt by the subject
to takeover too much "responsibility." The FeedBack issue
told me what no one else seemed to want to hear.
>>
When was this "feedback issue" made public --- and was it really something "no one wanted to hear" --- tonight was the first I'd ever heard about it ... and, of course, I'm quite appalled .---- but I don't think we "didn't want to hear it" --- we just didn't know about it.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
I can't believe i just read all 21 pages of this thread. I have seen Slander, Character assassination,someone offering up personal information( By the way, this is a PSA Violation). PSA must be asleep at the wheel tonight. I'm surpised this thread has not gone *POOF*
Lee
... I ended up sending one pack ('77, as previously stated) from that rip along with a few from the hockey rip from months earlier.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>Well if blindflyer expressed his intentions on grading before the packs were shipped, the smart thing to do would be to send him legit packs.
Lee >>
My thoughts exactly. I only remember reading this from awhile back because it got me thinking of sending in some cellos that I have that have McGwire on the front.
I also pulled this card from the recent football rip ... condition isn't great (PSA 8 at best) ... but it still came from a Gary sanctioned rip:
I wish the guy would defend himself ... it's obvious to me that he didn't "completely" reseal/screw everyone --- at least not me.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>This thread is a sociology class on "mob mentatility" --- truly an amazing thing to read and watch develop. >>
Indeed.
I've been lurking on this site for a couple of months now and I remember following the thread on the last rip thinking he was getting a bit pushy about doing the shipping himself, at least IMO.
I'm learning alot on these boards , but I today I wish it wasn't something that affected a lot of posters in such a negative way. Sorry to those that believe those deals weren't on the up & up.
1. As I mentioned a few pages back --- this is definitely one of the finest examples of "mob mentality" I have ever witnessed.
2. A majority of you didn't even participate in any of the rips nor have any real idea what was or wasn't pulled in the rips. While I agree that Gary looks guilty by association of his ebay purchases, fleer bkball pictures, vanishing posts, and going to bed early rather than respond to everyone --- that doesn't okay it for dozens of folks to throw out accusations without a full notion of what the rips actually produced.
3. Zefs picture of the '84 Football boxes, to me, is most telling. I believe that Gary used the board rips as an opportunity to get pristine Steve Hart/BBCE product on our dime. He took the BBCE boxes to keep for himself --- while shipping out boxes/packs of like product from his own collection. This provided an overall upgraded personal supply/collection of unopened material for Gary. I am not certain how many (if any) of what he sent us were resealed. My previous posts show that I have received confirmed PSA-graded untampered packs ('77 baseball) and good cards ('84 Elway) from Gary-sponsored rips. However, overall, none of the rips have been "worth the money" to me. This, however, proves nothing.
4. Gary owes the board an explanation. He should come clean with his method, intentions, and actions. Be straight --- did he switch out boxes as I suggest in #3 above? Was he re-sealing? Why do all the ebay purchases coincide with our rips? Etc Etc --- he has handled $1000s of transaction dollars from us. We as a community deserve an explanation.
-Tom
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>
How does Kevin Mench fit into all of this?
edited to give the trashers more trash
==========================================================================================
Wednesday February 28, 2007 11:07 PM
Now heres my good excuse for not getting the packs out today got a call at 7am this morning from an old friend whos neihbor had something he wanted to sell> So I drove 5 hours to san diego to secure this deal from a very nice old man. Im stoked I've never owned a 86 fleer basketball box before. The boxes arent in mint condition but not bad considering this guy is not a collector. Even better he thibnks he might have more
===========================================================================================
Please explain how this coincides with your now stated comments regarding the boxes.
<< <i>easy read my explanation post. i purchased legit packs that had no boxes and bought empty boxes to put them with. and the 86 box is not the one from ebay and 74 empty boxes ive bought 4 this month alone >>
<< <i>Just a random thought - did Topps wax packs for the years in question have obvious enough sequencing that someone could open a few packs from a box and tell where the "money cards" would be (sorta like '89 UD)? >>
I can speak for the late 70's stuff, there is a sequence based off the card showing but not where the pack is located in the box.
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
Steve
<< <i>Good morning.
Steve >>
Good morning!!
i am being sarcastic, but also pointing out the vanity in everyone bashing 1 person who has not been found guilty of anything.
julen
tgif
RIP GURU
Thanks, ass.hole.
To the tune of around $400..... I am I pissed?
Yes.
Is it about the money?
No.
I've enjoyed these rips, but unfortunately, I'm not sure I'd ever trust anyone to do these again.
And "breaking" the trust of a group like this is a terrible, cruel thing to do.
I will try to avoid the mob mentality, as I think we need to focus, strictly on what has occurred, and how/if/what we recover from this point.
As far as the "investigation" goes, I only have this to add:
A. Where there is smoke, there is fire.
B. Some packs may pass inspection by PSA/Steve Hart. For a pack resealer to make for a profitable venture, he only needs to open packs until he hits something big. Ergo, only xx% of the packs may have been opened.
C. In the event that we need to proceed, legally, my girlfriend is a lawyer, and if we can approximate the number of people and money involved, I can see how we need to proceed.
Ethan
Only an idiot would have a message board signature.
- I know most of you are trying to help, but the piling on of insults to Gary is giving this thread the feeling of a mob mentality. We are not out to roast the guy, we just want explanations of why all the fishy have been going on. If you don't have anything to say that is directly related to the evidence or the pack rips, please save your thoughts or start another thread. We are simply trying to get the facts out and insults and personal thoughts interfere with that information. With that said, those of us that feel ripped off appreciate the support, as I'm sure Gary appreciates the support of those that have taken his side.
- Just to make it clear- Gary has only (as far as I know) edited the post in which he was trying to start an 84 FB case rip. Please stop bringing up the fact that he's edited all of his posts because that is not true.
- There is still no accounting for the exact overlap in wrappers, singles, and boxes Gary bought from ebay, and the boxes and packs we've been ripping. Are we to believe that 21 out of the 33 items purchased are just coincidentally the same things we've been opening? And the explanation that he's selling singles wrappers and boxes as a full lot really hold no weight because it makes absolutely no sense. That's like selling a "make your own resealed box" kit. Besides, he hasn't sold a lot like that once of the stuff he's been buying on ebay. All I see is the 1974 box that really has no part in this discussion because he's selling it as a sealed box, and it isn't related to any of our rips. What does this have to do with the buying of wrappers, singles, and empty boxes? Using an example of selling a sealed box as an excuse for buying wrappers, singles and empty boxes doesn't really help your case.
- The 86 Fleer box he said he bought from an "old man down the street" is ABSOLUTELY the same one he bought on ebay. The markings are EXACTLY alike. As I said before, this would hold up in court. You're caught in a lie here Gary, which totally shoots down your credibility.
- Gary, we're waiting for that pic of your bartop or collage of all the wrappers you've been accumulating, including the 75 minis of which you must have had hundreds.
- As explained before, blindflyer expressed his intent to grade some packs before they were shipped out. Gary would have been idiotic to send him resealed packs. No offense to blindflyer, but his packs being legit really hold no weight in terms of evidence supporting Gary's claims.
- I'll explain again- the reason I brought this to a public forum and not one on one is because: a) There were impending rips and I didn't want people sending you money until this was straightened out, b) There are so many people involved, it has to become a public issue. Everybody has a right to know, and keeping it between you and I makes absolutely no sense. Another reason I haven't mentioned is that if you have been doing shady stuff, I didcn't want to give you a head start in covering your tracks.
Lee
ps- I'm posting this in the original thread and Gary's explanation thread to make sure everybody, including Gary, sees it.
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