Oh, totally agree that the boxes pictured on his thread and the one's from the E-bay buy are indeed the same. That one is a flat out lie. My question was around the packs/boxes sent out for the board rips and is he sitting on a bunch of good stuff right now stashed in his house. I am guessing that if he pulled a switch or pulled all of the nicely centered stars he didn't sell them on E-bay yet or you guys would have really had his a**.
Greetings gents. Sorry to hear about the troubles.
Here's my two cents.
Steve Hart in a situation like this would refund all monies and possibly not even ask for the product to be returned. Maybe he would want any unopened packs. We have seen him do this in the past.
That is a true businessman.
Your subject has made an offer that is not satisfactory, despite his claim to vast knowledge of business practices. If this was just a true "collect the money and divvy up the packs" rip then maybe we would have a different situation. However it looks as if your packs did not come from the expected source(s). This now makes your subject a quasi-dealer in the rip, not just a nice guy helping out fellow collectors. With this he assumes responsibility in my opinion.
The con, when caught will try to minimize their loss not yours. "Well the take just will not amount to my expectations."
If you have proof that you have mistakenly believed shaky statements while the rips were being organized then why accept as rational an offer to refund only that which has not been opened?
It's a true shame to see trusting people get screwed. Some probably are shaking their heads and thinking "why did I not see this?"
Good luck to all. Hopefully I can participate in the "Screw You Gary Rip of the Decade" where a good system is developed, all just open packs and enjoy the hobby.
The other question that will surface from this concerns "C" --- card laundering operation.
Did Gary actually "know" that some/all of the "non-BBCE" packs were resealed/not-legit.
Given his proclaimed title as "80's Junkie" and grand statements of buying $40k in unopened vintage during recent buying sprees --- one would have to assume that he knew his wax. Furthering the thought --- he probably knew his wax so well that he bought knowingly re-sealed stuff at bargain prices with the idea that he could launder it through our rips.
It was almost too easy to get away with really --- especially given our given respect for BBCE. Why would we question the origin of the packs if we're under the assumption all along that they're from BBCE?
Secondly --- what percentage did Gary launder? quarter box? half box? full box?
how many boxes in any given rip? a couple? all the key boxes?
so many questions ---- I wish we could somehow learn the truth.
Maybe Gary will sign a book deal so that we can all find out.
-t
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>JUST RECIEVED HUGE WAX COLLECTION FREE SHIPPING ON MOST WAX BOXES AND FREE SHIPPING ON ORDERS OVER 25.00 ALL SUMMER >>
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
<< <i>ROBERT I HAVE OFFERED A REFUND ON THE BASKETBALL RIP AND ANY UNOPENED FOOTBALL PACKS. I AM NOT GOING TO REFUND PACKS ALREADY RIPPED OPEN. NO ONE WOULD DO THAT. >>
The point here is that they HAVE been ripped open...and then repackaged by you.
<< <i>ROBERT I HAVE OFFERED A REFUND ON THE BASKETBALL RIP AND ANY UNOPENED FOOTBALL PACKS. I AM NOT GOING TO REFUND PACKS ALREADY RIPPED OPEN. NO ONE WOULD DO THAT. >>
The point here is that they HAVE been ripped open...and then repackaged by you. >>
Hell, buy some wrappers,seal em and sell them back to him. lol
<< <i>ROBERT I HAVE OFFERED A REFUND ON THE BASKETBALL RIP AND ANY UNOPENED FOOTBALL PACKS. I AM NOT GOING TO REFUND PACKS ALREADY RIPPED OPEN. NO ONE WOULD DO THAT. >>
Why the hell not? You've had these fine people purchasing opened packs from you!
It would be nice to see a photo of Gary's bar - with or without the wax wrappers under the glass. Hopefully he does have a nice bar like the one he pictured several months back when he asked members to send the wax wrappers from the 75' mini break. reason I ask is there was a small tv in the corner of the bar. I asked where the plasma tv is and Gary replied 'on the other side of the room'. then when Gary won a big screen tv from a grocery store (pictured in another thread) he was very happy to get the TV just in time for the super bowl - but I thought he already had a plasma tv based on his post in October. the tv he won just in time for the super bowl was pictured and the setting of that TV didn't quite match the quality of the setting of the bar photo.
hearing about the kids for cards charity has also been lacking.
i have been sketchin' all day thinking about this entire situation and i don't care anymore now.
i hope cardboard and cu and all the fun and excitement associated w/ this lame, boring, utterly nerdy hobby don't escape you during this time, regardless of what you did or did not do.
as i have asked multiple times now. where did the 84 topps football box or packs come from?
i am not 100% certain about what happened but i would like at least an answer. i was under the impression that only one box was not coming from bbce. but that has changed. you mentioned that the 84 box was one that didnt come from there. you mention all the others that steve didnt have by year came from dacw. but you never said where the 84 box came from. please let us know or me at least.
i was one of the first the noticed the problem with the 85's and posted it. now that you say steve sent them bulk its hard to belive that he didnt notice something from the start. many of my 84's were also somewhat warped as well.
please respond at a minimum by pm. i have been holding my judgement for now but no response makes one wonder.
jay
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
i have been sketchin' all day thinking about this entire situation and i don't care anymore now.
i hope cardboard and cu and all the fun and excitement associated w/ this lame, boring, utterly nerdy hobby don't escape you during this time, regardless of what you did or did not do.
your friend (don't even know you)
Julen >>
Julen, I agree the mob mentality from last night was out of control.
... but Gary continues to evade the questions. He answers some and avoids others. Whether or not people are being "too hard on him" is really besides the point (and worth at least a days conversation in sociology class).
He's admitted to lying about the origin of certain boxes He has a paper trail a mile long connecting him to like product from the rips Gemint show'd a paper trail from November that alluded to tampered packs Garys feedback is littered with people claiming tampered packs
If BBCE was truly supplying our product --- we would not be getting tampered material.
Why are we?
-t
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Guys...it's been almost 24 hours since the I-Team broke the story and 24 hours later everyone is still waiting on answers from Gary. If he has not come clean by now, I do not expect him to start. With nearly 30 pages on this thread alone (and many associate satellite threads) these questions are merely running over one another.
Point is this thing is just going round and round and as of now appears to have no end. As many astute members have said, we will never really know what took place and I am not casting guilt one way or the other. I understand the frustration and anger, but the board will be better for it in the future.
Lets get back to new topics, friendly chatter, the wisdom of Stone, the humor of Pandrews and the ever changing sig lines of Julen.
I apologize if I am over stepping my boundaries, but I wanted to drop a line...or two
i just got back from the reading show and i was talking with steve hart (bbce). he asked me to post here that for any future rips, he will be glad ship to all involved himself. so if you guys decide to do a rip in the future, that aspect is solved. regards pat
<< <i>i just got back from the reading show and i was talking with steve hart (bbce). he asked me to post here that for any future rips, he will be glad ship to all involved himself. so if you guys decide to do a rip in the future, that aspect is solved. regards pat >>
I was not involved in these rips, but I was following them off and on here since about November.
Someone here posted some 86 FB pics with bad miscuts. Let me say that I bought a 86 FB cello direct from BBCExchange around December, and decided to bust it.
The cellos have a 1000 yard card on top, so you can't see the top card. Two of the packs had Walter Payton cards on the bottom - other 22 packs were commons showing.
I popped 11 packs before I hit the first decent card (an Elway), and let me tell you, I was 'starting to wonder' about the quality of this box. Luck of the draw, however, as in the end, I ended up with 2 Elways, 3 Marinos, Multiples of rookies in the set, 3 Steve Youngs, and 1 Jerry Rice (in the next to last pack).
While none were as miscut as the one in your picture, I'd venture to say 10% of the box I opened was miscut. Virtually every star card was waaaay off center (80/20 or worse). As far as grades of the stars/rookies, I think one Young may pull a PSA 9 (if I'm very lucky), many of the rest 7's and 8's, and some are so far off they wouldn't be worth submitting.
I can also tell you that it's normal to have a REALLY miscut card between 2 cards that would grade a 9 easily. This I may never understand, but I don't know how these things were collated by Topps before packageing. You'd think opening a box or two you'd hit a bunch of them (since there were 132 cards on a sheet that should all but miscut), but that doesn't seem to be the case.
I've busted a lot of older Topps wax - ya win some, ya lose some.
The point is, that there isn't going to be ANY psa 10's coming out of the box I bought. BBCE sold me an unsearched box, I have no problem with them - they delivered what they promised, and are not to blame for Topps lack of quality control during that era. I know of someone else who bought an identical box to mine (also from BBCE) that hit a boatload of 10's.
-----------
Now, an outsider's view....
(1) At this point, it appears no answer/explanation he gives is going to satisfy most of you, which is obvious from the fact some of you have initiated chargebacks, etc. - it's almost a waste of time for him to respond only to be attacked again. Your minds are already made up, and I hope you are right and that he is a crook, because it would be really sad if you all turned out to be wrong.
(2) Maybe all of you that opened your packs can get together with what you pulled from the rip, since it's obvious various people did hit some nice cards, and at least one pack has graded authentic by PSA.
...Not taking sides here - just trying to offer some alternative points to consider.
Collecting my sports heroes, Roger Staubach and Kirby Puckett.
<< <i>i just got back from the reading show and i was talking with steve hart (bbce). he asked me to post here that for any future rips, he will be glad ship to all involved himself. so if you guys decide to do a rip in the future, that aspect is solved. regards pat >>
Steve and his staff are awesome
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
This is unbelievable. The story just doesn't add up. To me, people receiving multiple cards of one player in a pack back to back is a slam dunk the pack has been tampered with. Especially with Topps - I opened thousands of packs of Topps cards during this era, and received duplicates of the same card in a pack maybe a dozen times. Never were they back to back, but they usually happened when the "normal" pack sequence was broken halfway through the pack. Say what you want about Topps quality control, but their coalation was always pretty strong, because of how the sheets were cut in the factory having dups back to back seems more like somebody buying a sorted common lot and resealing them in a wrapper. An Upper Deck pack maybe I would be more apt to believe.
Did anybody receive the 89 Score Barry Sanders? I ask this because if I remember right, those packs were very easy to search.
One more thing, does anyone agree with me that eBay should ban sales of wrappers and/or empty wax boxes. Yes, I know there are "wrapper" collectors out there, but do you really need more than one? I have a tough time believing that anyone buying these 50 count lots of wrappers has scrupulous ideas. With these sorts of auctions, it seems that eBay is propegating pack fraud like never before. Anyone with a few bucks, a paypal account, a stack of commons, and a hot butter knife can start their own pack factory these days. Used to be just the unscrupulous dealers.
This is unbelievable. The story just doesn't add up. To me, people receiving multiple cards of one player in a pack back to back is a slam dunk the pack has been tampered with. Especially with Topps - I opened thousands of packs of Topps cards during this era, and received duplicates of the same card in a pack maybe a dozen times. Never were they back to back, but they usually happened when the "normal" pack sequence was broken halfway through the pack. Say what you want about Topps quality control, but their coalation was always pretty strong, because of how the sheets were cut in the factory having dups back to back seems more like somebody buying a sorted common lot and resealing them in a wrapper. An Upper Deck pack maybe I would be more apt to believe.
Did anybody receive the 89 Score Barry Sanders? I ask this because if I remember right, those packs were very easy to search.
One more thing, does anyone agree with me that eBay should ban sales of wrappers and/or empty wax boxes. Yes, I know there are "wrapper" collectors out there, but do you really need more than one? I have a tough time believing that anyone buying these 50 count lots of wrappers has scrupulous ideas. With these sorts of auctions, it seems that eBay is propegating pack fraud like never before. Anyone with a few bucks, a paypal account, a stack of commons, and a hot butter knife can start their own pack factory these days. Used to be just the unscrupulous dealers. >>
Go figure, Gary got the Barry Sanders. He posted the pic
Intesting how you have an overly thick British "typing accent" in some posts but in other you dont use any stereotypical british slang. Hmmmm.......
<< <i>Yes,
Gary shipped the 2-lots directly to me in the UK. (This cost me $14 and the postage on the Global Priority shipping box was $15.75.) I have opened the entire 2-lots, and other than the '89 score, I have no other major/listed stars other than the Payton and Ham I scanned. And by coincidence, the '76 box was the only box professionally graded. I initially was apprehensive about joining the football break, but as I monitored the thread, it seemed legit. I chalked my lack of stars from the other years packs as typical Topps '70s and '80s collation. I sent my 2 boxes from the '78 baseball rip, that Steve Hart shipped, to my home in Atlanta, where my in-laws (knock wood) will collect from Fed-Ex.
If anyone has a need to witch hunt me, my ebay handle is TGF_sports, and my collections are listed in the PSA registry as TGF_Collection.
At this point my biggest issue of concern involves this charity Gary claimed to have been part of.
We all know there are scam artists in this hobby, and to what extent some members were scammed will most likely never be known, but to fabricate a charity for the benefit of sick and underprivelaged children seems far worse.
He went into great detail explaining the charity, where it was based, how often he visits and speaks with the children, how many cards have been donated, the length of time the charity had been operational, the expansion of chapters throughout the west coast, and so on and so on.
A few of us have attempted searches for info on this charities existance and all have come up completely empty. It just doesnt appear to exists.
I for one would like an answer/explanation for this more than anything involving packs/rips. I would like to know why folks on here were solicited to donate cards for this charity ( many of whom gave ) that doesnt appear to exists, and an explanation as to where the charitable efforts and goods of these members actually went.
Am I asking too much here ?
Someone please tell me if I am, because this above all else worries me.
Gary, if you read this please respond. If you can provide ANY proof of the charities existance, your involvement, receipts...anything at all, please do so for my benefit and the benefit of others on these boards.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>At this point my biggest issue of concern involves this charity Gary claimed to have been part of.
We all know there are scam artists in this hobby, and to what extent some members were scammed will most likely never be known, but to fabricate a charity for the benefit of sick and underprivelaged children seems far worse.
He went into great detail explaining the charity, where it was based, how often he visits and speaks with the children, how many cards have been donated, the length of time the charity had been operational, the expansion of chapters throughout the west coast, and so on and so on.
A few of us have attempted searches for info on this charities existance and all have come up completely empty. It just doesnt appear to exists.
I for one would like an answer/explanation for this more than anything involving packs/rips. I would like to know why folks on here were solicited to donate cards for this charity ( many of whom gave ) that doesnt appear to exists, and an explanation as to where the charitable efforts and goods of these members actually went.
Am I asking too much here ?
Someone please tell me if I am, because this above all else worries me.
Gary, if you read this please respond. If you can provide ANY proof of the charities existance, your involvement, receipts...anything at all, please do so for my benefit and the benefit of others on these boards. >>
You are reaching with the "cellos vs wax" comment...
wax is a lot easier b/c it's 36 packs... you can't get cellos for every year with consistent numbers (to my knowledge).
wax is easy --- 36 guys gives everyone a pack .... no matter which years you go with (after mid 70s).
It's obvious to me that everyone is looking at every comment, action, etc with 100% pessism.
Gary *could* actually be innocent of tampering with our packs. Has anyone actually considered this?
All cello boxes are uniform in number, too, containing 24 packs per box. While it is more difficult to reseal or tamper with cellos and racks, it is defintely not impossible and there are many bogus cellos and even racks that go up for sale on ebay all the time.
Gary's recent purchases of single card lots, wrappers and empty boxes of the same EXACT years we were scheduling to rip is just way too coincidental to accept and are the absolute HALLMARKS of a resealer or pack factory. I also saw that he purchased a 1986 Fleer box of non-sports packs, another tactic that resealers use to get the right kind of gum. As CDsNuts pointed out, his credibility was severely compromised when he lied about the 86 Fleer basketball box.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
At a minimum I don't think the 85T came from BBCE, nor the "musty" 78's (and there may be and probably are more). There is no way BBCE sells 85's in that condition. And if you can smell my single pack of 78's from across the room, then imagine what that box must have smelled like. Again, BBCE did not sell this box.
But we paid projected "BBCE" dollars for the boxes - ($9000 in total) - and if in fact boxes were purchased at discounted rates from other dealers because of the condition, then there is certainly an accounting due for actual cost of the boxes vs. what we collectively paid. The difference would be hundreds of dollars - maybe more.
If my suspicions are true, then 80's should refund the difference between what he collected for the box purchases and what he actually paid and be done with it. I see no way to "prove" anything beyond that. Lesson learned and we move on. There are too many well respected and very helpful members on this forum to let this incident discourage future group rips or be any type of negative influence on sharing this hobby through the message board.
"If my suspicions are true, then 80's should refund the difference between what he collected for the box purchases and what he actually paid and be done with it. "
That could be a negotiated solution, but it would not be entirely "fair" to the participants.
The buyers got into the deal(s) with the idea that they were buying cards from a specific source; many would not have participated if they had known their cards were a hodge-podge mixture from sundry sources. Those buyers did not get what they paid for, even if the seller was not unjustly enriched in the process.
A compelling case for full-refunds is made through the findings detailed in this thread.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
A compelling case for full-refunds is made through the findings detailed in this thread.
I agree with you 100%. The bottom line is that this is the only gesture that will truly gain him some measure of respect. However, read his response to my,and other members, earlier suggestions about this and you can conclude this isn't likely to happen. And sadly, this may still be too little, too late. What a shame.
The buyers got into the deal(s) with the idea that they were buying cards from a specific source; many would not have participated if they had known their cards were a hodge-podge mixture from sundry sources. Those buyers did not get what they paid for, even if the seller was not unjustly enriched in the process.
A compelling case for full-refunds is made through the findings detailed in this thread. >>
Absolutely correct. I would not have participated if the boxes were coming from "Gary's Warehouse" rather than BBCE. Better off buying from an unknown seller from ebay who at least doesnt show empty wrappers and vending box lots in their ebay history.
Lesson learned I guess...This guy is a flake, he says he's getting out of the business now, so what does he care about getting collector's respect? He no longer cares, he got his money and is running.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>he says he's getting out of the business now, so what does he care about getting collector's respect? >>
I don't think is going anywhere. He may low for awhile on ebay, but according to the link that was posted above, he has hundreds of cards/wax boxes listed on Naxcom.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
Resealers never go away, they just reinvent themselves with new identities. There are multiple ebay IDs of the same resealers over the years selling crap all the time.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Posted below is a scan of the 1978 Topps pack I received from the late 70's early 80's rip compared to a pack I received from the current 1978 case break. The one on the left is from the 70's & 80's rip, the one on the right is from the 1978 case break. I'm not a pack expert, but the seals appear to be very different. In addition, the wrapper is much looser on the 70's & 80's rip than the 1978 case break pack. Again, I am not a pack expert so draw your own conclusions. I thought it would be interesting to see the packs side to side.
<< <i> I'm not a pack expert, but the seals appear to be very different. >>
I am no expert either but they are not even close to being the same.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
Ok, where do I start.... 1) Stands out the most but the BURN MARK on the lower right corner. Burn marks are indicitive of something hot being used to melt the wax...just a bit too much heat there. 2) Excess wax bottom left 3) A far too incomplete seal 4) left border of loose wrapper that was preformed from the original wrapping...you can acually see where the original cards embedded the border (AND you can see it on the right border also!) 5) Again the bottom right...a small tear...not a giveaway but rare from the factory
I do not claim to be a pack expert but I have opened many 70s/80s packs and these are my observations that are questionable...and that is without even comparing to the pack on the right.
Posted below is a scan of the 1978 Topps pack I received from the late 70's early 80's rip compared to a pack I received from the current 1978 case break. The one on the left is from the 70's & 80's rip, the one on the right is from the 1978 case break. I'm not a pack expert, but the seals appear to be very different. In addition, the wrapper is much looser on the 70's & 80's rip than the 1978 case break pack. Again, I am not a pack expert so draw your own conclusions. I thought it would be interesting to see the packs side to side.
The 78 pack on the left looks like it's been resealed with an iron (check out the scorch marks).
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Yup, that 75 box sure is the same. Sooooo....how was that box filled with packs? Is there an auction? A receipt? Anything to show that 36 CLEAN packs were purchased? Or is this something from the "warehouse" waiting for a rainy day? :::eyeroll:::
Yeah...your guys observations on the packs are right on. I'll have to look throught the other packs again, but the 1977 looks legit. I'll have to examine the others.
At least this guy is smart enough to keep his buying/selling accounts separate. His MO seems to be buy the wrappers and then the corresponding complete sets. This way, he can include some "stars" in the packs and there will be no duplication. Make sure the checklists aren't checked and whammo, you're good to go. My guess is that he pulls the high dollar cards (81 Montana, etc.) from the sets for himself. Even if he was randomly shuffling the cards and did include the "big ones" in the boxes, this business still has a huge profit margin for him.
Comments
JMO, Bob C.
61 Topps (100%) 7.96
62 Parkhurst (100%) 8.70
63 Topps (100%) 7.96
63 York WB's (50%) 8.52
68 Topps (39%) 8.54
69 Topps (3%) 9.00
69 OPC (83%) 8.21
71 Topps (100%) 9.21 #1 A.T.F.
72 Topps (100%) 9.39
73 Topps (13%) 9.35
74 OPC WHA (95%) 8.57
75 Topps (50%) 9.23
77 OPC WHA (86%) 8.62 #1 A.T.F.
88 Topps (5%) 10.00
only if you want to embarrass the people who bought cards from this moron.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
<< <i>
<< <i>Softparade,
Oh, totally agree that the boxes pictured on his thread and the one's from the E-bay buy are indeed the same. That one is a flat out lie. My question was around the packs/boxes sent out for the board rips and is he sitting on a bunch of good stuff right now stashed in his house. I am guessing that if he pulled a switch or pulled all of the nicely centered stars he didn't sell them on E-bay yet or you guys would have really had his a**.
Ken >>
That's because he gets them graded and sells them from his NAXCOM store: http://www.naxcom.com/vipAction.do?id=64243 >>
The thick plottens.
Greetings gents. Sorry to hear about the troubles.
Here's my two cents.
Steve Hart in a situation like this would refund all monies and possibly not even ask for the product to be returned. Maybe he would want any unopened packs. We have seen him do this in the past.
That is a true businessman.
Your subject has made an offer that is not satisfactory, despite his claim to vast knowledge of business practices. If this was just a true "collect the money and divvy up the packs" rip then maybe we would have a different situation. However it looks as if your packs did not come from the expected source(s). This now makes your subject a quasi-dealer in the rip, not just a nice guy helping out fellow collectors. With this he assumes responsibility in my opinion.
The con, when caught will try to minimize their loss not yours. "Well the take just will not amount to my expectations."
If you have proof that you have mistakenly believed shaky statements while the rips were being organized then why accept as rational an offer to refund only that which has not been opened?
It's a true shame to see trusting people get screwed. Some probably are shaking their heads and thinking "why did I not see this?"
Good luck to all. Hopefully I can participate in the "Screw You Gary Rip of the Decade" where a good system is developed, all just open packs and enjoy the hobby.
Keith
The other question that will surface from this concerns "C" --- card laundering operation.
Did Gary actually "know" that some/all of the "non-BBCE" packs were resealed/not-legit.
Given his proclaimed title as "80's Junkie" and grand statements of buying $40k in unopened vintage during recent buying sprees --- one would have to assume that he knew his wax. Furthering the thought --- he probably knew his wax so well that he bought knowingly re-sealed stuff at bargain prices with the idea that he could launder it through our rips.
It was almost too easy to get away with really --- especially given our given respect for BBCE. Why would we question the origin of the packs if we're under the assumption all along that they're from BBCE?
Secondly --- what percentage did Gary launder? quarter box? half box? full box?
how many boxes in any given rip? a couple? all the key boxes?
so many questions ---- I wish we could somehow learn the truth.
Maybe Gary will sign a book deal so that we can all find out.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>JUST RECIEVED HUGE WAX COLLECTION FREE SHIPPING ON MOST WAX BOXES AND FREE SHIPPING ON ORDERS OVER 25.00 ALL SUMMER >>
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
JDRF Donation
<< <i>ROBERT I HAVE OFFERED A REFUND ON THE BASKETBALL RIP AND ANY UNOPENED FOOTBALL PACKS. I AM NOT GOING TO REFUND PACKS ALREADY RIPPED OPEN. NO ONE WOULD DO THAT. >>
The point here is that they HAVE been ripped open...and then repackaged by you.
<< <i>From Gary's sell page on Naxcom:
<< <i>JUST RECIEVED HUGE WAX COLLECTION FREE SHIPPING ON MOST WAX BOXES AND FREE SHIPPING ON ORDERS OVER 25.00 ALL SUMMER >>
>>
Uterly shameful
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>
<< <i>ROBERT I HAVE OFFERED A REFUND ON THE BASKETBALL RIP AND ANY UNOPENED FOOTBALL PACKS. I AM NOT GOING TO REFUND PACKS ALREADY RIPPED OPEN. NO ONE WOULD DO THAT. >>
The point here is that they HAVE been ripped open...and then repackaged by you. >>
Hell, buy some wrappers,seal em and sell them back to him. lol
<< <i>ROBERT I HAVE OFFERED A REFUND ON THE BASKETBALL RIP AND ANY UNOPENED FOOTBALL PACKS. I AM NOT GOING TO REFUND PACKS ALREADY RIPPED OPEN. NO ONE WOULD DO THAT. >>
Why the hell not? You've had these fine people purchasing opened packs from you!
<< <i>This just in - Tim Hardaway hates Gary (and all pack resealers or card launderers).
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
then maybe we would have a different situation. "
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
That would be a totally different situation, and nobody
would have any legitimate complaints; BECAUSE, that
is what they bargained for.
That said, and all the rest...............
There is no reason that community-rips cannot continue.
Somebody just needs to get BBCE to agree to receive
the money and ship the merch.
Anybody who wants to can organize one, anybody who
wants to can participate, and there will never be another
problem like this again.
A easy fix that should have been obvious to us ALL, before
the controversy.
FOR THE LAST TIME I DID NOT RESEAL ANY PACKS
hearing about the kids for cards charity has also been lacking.
i have been sketchin' all day thinking about this entire situation and i don't care anymore now.
i hope cardboard and cu and all the fun and excitement associated w/ this lame, boring, utterly nerdy hobby don't escape you during this time, regardless of what you did or did not do.
your friend (don't even know you)
Julen
RIP GURU
as i have asked multiple times now. where did the 84 topps football box or packs come from?
i am not 100% certain about what happened but i would like at least an answer. i was under the impression that only one box was not coming from bbce. but that has changed. you mentioned that the 84 box was one that didnt come from there. you mention all the others that steve didnt have by year came from dacw. but you never said where the 84 box came from. please let us know or me at least.
i was one of the first the noticed the problem with the 85's and posted it. now that you say steve sent them bulk its hard to belive that he didnt notice something from the start. many of my 84's were also somewhat warped as well.
please respond at a minimum by pm. i have been holding my judgement for now but no response makes one wonder.
jay
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>gary, i feel your pain brother.
i have been sketchin' all day thinking about this entire situation and i don't care anymore now.
i hope cardboard and cu and all the fun and excitement associated w/ this lame, boring, utterly nerdy hobby don't escape you during this time, regardless of what you did or did not do.
your friend (don't even know you)
Julen >>
Julen, I agree the mob mentality from last night was out of control.
... but Gary continues to evade the questions. He answers some and avoids others. Whether or not people are being "too hard on him" is really besides the point (and worth at least a days conversation in sociology class).
He's admitted to lying about the origin of certain boxes
He has a paper trail a mile long connecting him to like product from the rips
Gemint show'd a paper trail from November that alluded to tampered packs
Garys feedback is littered with people claiming tampered packs
If BBCE was truly supplying our product --- we would not be getting tampered material.
Why are we?
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>only if you want to embarrass the people who bought cards from this moron. >>
for the record, ive bought from Gary and had no problems.. i was pleased with the transaction (it was a graded card i bought)..
Point is this thing is just going round and round and as of now appears to have no end. As many astute members have said, we will never really know what took place and I am not casting guilt one way or the other. I understand the frustration and anger, but the board will be better for it in the future.
Lets get back to new topics, friendly chatter, the wisdom of Stone, the humor of Pandrews and the ever changing sig lines of Julen.
I apologize if I am over stepping my boundaries, but I wanted to drop a line...or two
Memphis
regards
pat
Go Phillies
<< <i>i just got back from the reading show and i was talking with steve hart (bbce). he asked me to post here that for any future rips, he will be glad ship to all involved himself. so if you guys decide to do a rip in the future, that aspect is solved.
regards
pat >>
I am sure this is what everybody will want
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Someone here posted some 86 FB pics with bad miscuts. Let me say that I bought a 86 FB cello direct from BBCExchange around December, and decided to bust it.
The cellos have a 1000 yard card on top, so you can't see the top card. Two of the packs had Walter Payton cards on the bottom - other 22 packs were commons showing.
I popped 11 packs before I hit the first decent card (an Elway), and let me tell you, I was 'starting to wonder' about the quality of this box. Luck of the draw, however, as in the end, I ended up with 2 Elways, 3 Marinos, Multiples of rookies in the set, 3 Steve Youngs, and 1 Jerry Rice (in the next to last pack).
While none were as miscut as the one in your picture, I'd venture to say 10% of the box I opened was miscut. Virtually every star card was waaaay off center (80/20 or worse). As far as grades of the stars/rookies, I think one Young may pull a PSA 9 (if I'm very lucky), many of the rest 7's and 8's, and some are so far off they wouldn't be worth submitting.
I can also tell you that it's normal to have a REALLY miscut card between 2 cards that would grade a 9 easily. This I may never understand, but I don't know how these things were collated by Topps before packageing. You'd think opening a box or two you'd hit a bunch of them (since there were 132 cards on a sheet that should all but miscut), but that doesn't seem to be the case.
I've busted a lot of older Topps wax - ya win some, ya lose some.
The point is, that there isn't going to be ANY psa 10's coming out of the box I bought. BBCE sold me an unsearched box, I have no problem with them - they delivered what they promised, and are not to blame for Topps lack of quality control during that era. I know of someone else who bought an identical box to mine (also from BBCE) that hit a boatload of 10's.
-----------
Now, an outsider's view....
(1) At this point, it appears no answer/explanation he gives is going to satisfy most of you, which is obvious from the fact some of you have initiated chargebacks, etc. - it's almost a waste of time for him to respond only to be attacked again. Your minds are already made up, and I hope you are right and that he is a crook, because it would be really sad if you all turned out to be wrong.
(2) Maybe all of you that opened your packs can get together with what you pulled from the rip, since it's obvious various people did hit some nice cards, and at least one pack has graded authentic by PSA.
...Not taking sides here - just trying to offer some alternative points to consider.
<< <i>i just got back from the reading show and i was talking with steve hart (bbce). he asked me to post here that for any future rips, he will be glad ship to all involved himself. so if you guys decide to do a rip in the future, that aspect is solved.
regards
pat >>
Steve and his staff are awesome
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
JDRF Donation
<< <i>please respond at a minimum by pm >>
Hold your horses, he's busy building a bar.
This is unbelievable. The story just doesn't add up. To me, people receiving multiple cards of one player in a pack back to back is a slam dunk the pack has been tampered with. Especially with Topps - I opened thousands of packs of Topps cards during this era, and received duplicates of the same card in a pack maybe a dozen times. Never were they back to back, but they usually happened when the "normal" pack sequence was broken halfway through the pack. Say what you want about Topps quality control, but their coalation was always pretty strong, because of how the sheets were cut in the factory having dups back to back seems more like somebody buying a sorted common lot and resealing them in a wrapper. An Upper Deck pack maybe I would be more apt to believe.
Did anybody receive the 89 Score Barry Sanders? I ask this because if I remember right, those packs were very easy to search.
One more thing, does anyone agree with me that eBay should ban sales of wrappers and/or empty wax boxes. Yes, I know there are "wrapper" collectors out there, but do you really need more than one? I have a tough time believing that anyone buying these 50 count lots of wrappers has scrupulous ideas. With these sorts of auctions, it seems that eBay is propegating pack fraud like never before. Anyone with a few bucks, a paypal account, a stack of commons, and a hot butter knife can start their own pack factory these days. Used to be just the unscrupulous dealers.
<< <i>
<< <i>please respond at a minimum by pm >>
Hold your horses, he's busy building a bar.
This is unbelievable. The story just doesn't add up. To me, people receiving multiple cards of one player in a pack back to back is a slam dunk the pack has been tampered with. Especially with Topps - I opened thousands of packs of Topps cards during this era, and received duplicates of the same card in a pack maybe a dozen times. Never were they back to back, but they usually happened when the "normal" pack sequence was broken halfway through the pack. Say what you want about Topps quality control, but their coalation was always pretty strong, because of how the sheets were cut in the factory having dups back to back seems more like somebody buying a sorted common lot and resealing them in a wrapper. An Upper Deck pack maybe I would be more apt to believe.
Did anybody receive the 89 Score Barry Sanders? I ask this because if I remember right, those packs were very easy to search.
One more thing, does anyone agree with me that eBay should ban sales of wrappers and/or empty wax boxes. Yes, I know there are "wrapper" collectors out there, but do you really need more than one? I have a tough time believing that anyone buying these 50 count lots of wrappers has scrupulous ideas. With these sorts of auctions, it seems that eBay is propegating pack fraud like never before. Anyone with a few bucks, a paypal account, a stack of commons, and a hot butter knife can start their own pack factory these days. Used to be just the unscrupulous dealers. >>
Go figure, Gary got the Barry Sanders. He posted the pic
<< <i>Yes,
Gary shipped the 2-lots directly to me in the UK. (This cost me $14 and the postage on the Global Priority shipping box was $15.75.) I have opened the entire 2-lots, and other than the '89 score, I have no other major/listed stars other than the Payton and Ham I scanned. And by coincidence, the '76 box was the only box professionally graded. I initially was apprehensive about joining the football break, but as I monitored the thread, it seemed legit. I chalked my lack of stars from the other years packs as typical Topps '70s and '80s collation. I sent my 2 boxes from the '78 baseball rip, that Steve Hart shipped, to my home in Atlanta, where my in-laws (knock wood) will collect from Fed-Ex.
If anyone has a need to witch hunt me, my ebay handle is TGF_sports, and my collections are listed in the PSA registry as TGF_Collection.
Cheers,
MichaelG >>
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
We all know there are scam artists in this hobby, and to what extent some members were scammed will most likely never be known, but to fabricate a charity for the benefit of sick and underprivelaged children seems far worse.
He went into great detail explaining the charity, where it was based, how often he visits and speaks with the children, how many cards have been donated, the length of time the charity had been operational, the expansion of chapters throughout the west coast, and so on and so on.
A few of us have attempted searches for info on this charities existance and all have come up completely empty. It just doesnt appear to exists.
I for one would like an answer/explanation for this more than anything involving packs/rips. I would like to know why folks on here were solicited to donate cards for this charity ( many of whom gave ) that doesnt appear to exists, and an explanation as to where the charitable efforts and goods of these members actually went.
Am I asking too much here ?
Someone please tell me if I am, because this above all else worries me.
Gary, if you read this please respond. If you can provide ANY proof of the charities existance, your involvement, receipts...anything at all, please do so for my benefit and the benefit of others on these boards.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>At this point my biggest issue of concern involves this charity Gary claimed to have been part of.
We all know there are scam artists in this hobby, and to what extent some members were scammed will most likely never be known, but to fabricate a charity for the benefit of sick and underprivelaged children seems far worse.
He went into great detail explaining the charity, where it was based, how often he visits and speaks with the children, how many cards have been donated, the length of time the charity had been operational, the expansion of chapters throughout the west coast, and so on and so on.
A few of us have attempted searches for info on this charities existance and all have come up completely empty. It just doesnt appear to exists.
I for one would like an answer/explanation for this more than anything involving packs/rips. I would like to know why folks on here were solicited to donate cards for this charity ( many of whom gave ) that doesnt appear to exists, and an explanation as to where the charitable efforts and goods of these members actually went.
Am I asking too much here ?
Someone please tell me if I am, because this above all else worries me.
Gary, if you read this please respond. If you can provide ANY proof of the charities existance, your involvement, receipts...anything at all, please do so for my benefit and the benefit of others on these boards. >>
Bingo.
You are reaching with the "cellos vs wax" comment...
wax is a lot easier b/c it's 36 packs... you can't get cellos for every year with consistent numbers (to my knowledge).
wax is easy --- 36 guys gives everyone a pack .... no matter which years you go with (after mid 70s).
It's obvious to me that everyone is looking at every comment, action, etc with 100% pessism.
Gary *could* actually be innocent of tampering with our packs. Has anyone actually considered this?
All cello boxes are uniform in number, too, containing 24 packs per box. While it is more difficult to reseal or tamper with cellos and racks, it is defintely not impossible and there are many bogus cellos and even racks that go up for sale on ebay all the time.
Gary's recent purchases of single card lots, wrappers and empty boxes of the same EXACT years we were scheduling to rip is just way too coincidental to accept and are the absolute HALLMARKS of a resealer or pack factory. I also saw that he purchased a 1986 Fleer box of non-sports packs, another tactic that resealers use to get the right kind of gum. As CDsNuts pointed out, his credibility was severely compromised when he lied about the 86 Fleer basketball box.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I don't think my packs were resealed. However:
At a minimum I don't think the 85T came from BBCE, nor the "musty" 78's (and there may be and probably are more). There is no way BBCE sells 85's in that condition. And if you can smell my single pack of 78's from across the room, then imagine what that box must have smelled like. Again, BBCE did not sell this box.
But we paid projected "BBCE" dollars for the boxes - ($9000 in total) - and if in fact boxes were purchased at discounted rates from other dealers because of the condition, then there is certainly an accounting due for actual cost of the boxes vs. what we collectively paid. The difference would be hundreds of dollars - maybe more.
If my suspicions are true, then 80's should refund the difference between what he collected for the box purchases and what he actually paid and be done with it. I see no way to "prove" anything beyond that. Lesson learned and we move on. There are too many well respected and very helpful members on this forum to let this incident discourage future group rips or be any type of negative influence on sharing this hobby through the message board.
"Molon Labe"
between what he collected for the box purchases and what he
actually paid and be done with it. "
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
That could be a negotiated solution, but it would not
be entirely "fair" to the participants.
The buyers got into the deal(s) with the idea that they
were buying cards from a specific source; many would
not have participated if they had known their cards
were a hodge-podge mixture from sundry sources.
Those buyers did not get what they paid for, even if
the seller was not unjustly enriched in the process.
A compelling case for full-refunds is made through the
findings detailed in this thread.
A compelling case for full-refunds is made through the findings detailed in this thread.
I agree with you 100%. The bottom line is that this is the only gesture that will truly gain him some measure of respect. However, read his response to my,and other members, earlier suggestions about this and you can conclude this isn't likely to happen. And sadly, this may still be too little, too late. What a shame.
Robert
"Molon Labe"
<< <i>
The buyers got into the deal(s) with the idea that they
were buying cards from a specific source; many would
not have participated if they had known their cards
were a hodge-podge mixture from sundry sources.
Those buyers did not get what they paid for, even if
the seller was not unjustly enriched in the process.
A compelling case for full-refunds is made through the
findings detailed in this thread. >>
Absolutely correct. I would not have participated if the boxes were coming from "Gary's Warehouse" rather than BBCE. Better off buying from an unknown seller from ebay who at least doesnt show empty wrappers and vending box lots in their ebay history.
Lesson learned I guess...This guy is a flake, he says he's getting out of the business now, so what does he care about getting collector's respect? He no longer cares, he got his money and is running.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The collectibles business teaches people how to get
money for nothing. Once that is learned, the student
never gets out of the business.
<< <i>he says he's getting out of the business now, so what does he care about getting collector's respect? >>
I don't think is going anywhere. He may low for awhile on ebay, but according to the link that was posted above, he has hundreds of cards/wax boxes listed on Naxcom.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
JDRF Donation
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
1975 Ebay Empty Box
The "full" 1975 box Gary pictured in his photo from the "old man find":
Full 1975 Box
Draw your own conclusions.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i> I'm not a pack expert, but the seals appear to be very different. >>
I am no expert either but they are not even close to being the same.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
JDRF Donation
1) Stands out the most but the BURN MARK on the lower right corner. Burn marks are indicitive of something hot being used to melt the wax...just a bit too much heat there.
2) Excess wax bottom left
3) A far too incomplete seal
4) left border of loose wrapper that was preformed from the original wrapping...you can acually see where the original cards embedded the border (AND you can see it on the right border also!)
5) Again the bottom right...a small tear...not a giveaway but rare from the factory
I do not claim to be a pack expert but I have opened many 70s/80s packs and these are my observations that are questionable...and that is without even comparing to the pack on the right.
The 78 pack on the left looks like it's been resealed with an iron (check out the scorch marks).
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Feedback eBay
At least this guy is smart enough to keep his buying/selling accounts separate. His MO seems to be buy the wrappers and then the corresponding complete sets. This way, he can include some "stars" in the packs and there will be no duplication. Make sure the checklists aren't checked and whammo, you're good to go. My guess is that he pulls the high dollar cards (81 Montana, etc.) from the sets for himself. Even if he was randomly shuffling the cards and did include the "big ones" in the boxes, this business still has a huge profit margin for him.