At a BARE minimum, his suspicious activities should have been disclosed prior to the rip. Then we, the public, could have made a more informed decision to take part or not.
The 70/80s football rip was my first, and there was NOTHING mentioned in the thread by 80s junkie of what he buys and sells on ebay. If he were buying and selling legos, I dont need to know, but if hes buying and re-selling items that COULD be used to de-fraud the rip, that is something he should have been up front about.
He is absolutely guilty of mis-leading those of us who bought into the football rip. And for that, he should be sending out refunds and I will return him the wrappers and cards. I guess then he will re-sell them to some other sucker on ebay.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>At a BARE minimum, his suspicious activities should have been disclosed prior to the rip. Then we, the public, could have made a more informed decision to take part or not.
The 70/80s football rip was my first, and there was NOTHING mentioned in the thread by 80s junkie of what he buys and sells on ebay. If he were buying and selling legos, I dont need to know, but if hes buying and re-selling items that COULD be used to de-fraud the rip, that is something he should have been up front about.
He is absolutely guilty of mis-leading those of us who bought into the football rip. And for that, he should be sending out refunds and I will return him the wrappers and cards. I guess then he will re-sell them to some other sucker on ebay.
Jason >>
Given that he was buying wrappers, lots, etc of the SAME items he was putting together for us in the rips, I agree with this post 100%.
Well said.
-t
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>My spidey sense told me something was up when he muscled in on Chris's 70's-80's football rip. >>
I turned mine off when I saw many respected, knowledgable, trusted names signing up for the rip. I figured with so many of the regulars from the forum involved, it would be a safe bet.
I guess we all got fooled. Thank goodness it was only $150...And thanks to those who prevented it from happening to anyone else.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> It's always astounded me how much effort some criminals will put in to defraud people, when the same effort would yield the same or more money in a legitimate pursuit.
Joe >>
I wonder the same thing all the time.
Don't know if it's in the upbringing or just a screw loose. Either way, I'm more on the side of pity than anger. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out ...
<< <i>And is what you propose having happened any better? We, as a group, decide to purchase a box from BBCE for ($300.00). That box is kept, and another is purchased from "somewhere" for ($150.) Where is the extra ($150) going to? >>
80sjunkie:
<< <i>2 days before the superbowl and I get a call from this grocery store that just opened. I won a 52 inch big screen hdtv in there grand opening drawing . I still cant belive it. Just had to share my excitement
Yeah i was worried about the taxes but they didnt make me fill out anything. all I did was show them my id to make sure it was me and they loaded it in my truck and off I went I coudnt believe it no signature notta thing .
Gary, I'll be happy to send you all of my opened wrappers/cards and my 2 unopened packs for a refund on the football rip. I will include every card, every wrapper, and every pack to the last minor detail. I will pack them securely. Alternatively, I'll also send you only the unopened 1976/1977 packs for a partial refund of around $75, given the costs Steve charges for those. Let me know what you think.
<< <i>I just want one answer from Gary regarding these allegations that I can say to myself as a logically thinking person: "Well, that makes sense". It's been over 16 hours since he's been aware of all this and I have yet to hear something that makes sense, or see a picture of his bartop or collage for which he was buying all the wrappers, which he very well might be trying to put together as we speak.
To be honest, I'm not sure how much farther this can go cosidering we're never going to have visual or eyewitness proof, and he's never going to fess up if he did it. I see this going around in circles from this point forward. I hope I'm wrong and we reach some type of closure.
Lee >>
I'm pretty sure I know how much farther this can go, and the answer is 'it can't'. He's never going to 'fess up, as it were, because there's no incentive to do so, and nobody here is going to be able to prove anything. Why people are still playing Columbo and digging around in buried threads to try and find more posts that Gary needs to explain is beyond me, since none of this will precipitate a confession, but hey-- whatever pops your corn.
Re: the rips. Here's a fun way to look at it. Assume that the cards you can expect to pull in a given vintage pack are worth, on average, about 50% of what you paid. Thus, if you pay $150 for some vintage packs you can expect, on average, about $75 worth of cards. This 50% number seems a little high to me, but for now let's go with that. Now, one thing we DO know is that if these packs were, in fact, searched, certainly not all of them were searched, as evidenced by the pulling of the Montana RC. Again, just for fun let's say that 50% of the packs were searched.
So, we have an outlay of $150. Of that, we expect to lose $75 bucks the minute we open the packs. And of that $75 of equity which remains we still get $37.50, because half of the packs weren't searched. Further, you do get SOME cards for your money, so let's say the cards that are left from the searched packs are worth, on average, $5. Thus, Gary has ripped everyone off to the tune of about $32.50.
If you figure that Gary should have been compensated in some small way for organizing the rips and so forth-- let's say $2.50 per lot-- then you get an even $30. You can choose to include this or not, but in any case each person who participated is looking at having been torched for something in the $30-$40 range.
Is that a drag? Sure it is. Nobody likes to be taken. But if you're basically an honest and trustworthy guy you are going to get burned from time to time, and there's rarely anything you can do about it. Just be glad the losses were small, and try to be more vigilant next time.
Boo, I beg to differ. I just found a book report that Gary wrote in the 5th grade about Tom Sawyer that reads, and I quote.......................
I agree Boo. The whole point of this was to stop any more rips from happening that go through Gary. I'm happy that this has been accomplished. If we can get anything back in terms of compensation from all this, it's an added bonus as far as I'm concerned. Do I feel I deserve my money back? Yes. Do I think it's going to happen? Probably not.
<< <i>Boo, I beg to differ. I just found a book report that Gary wrote in the 5th grade about Tom Sawyer that reads, and I quote.......................
I agree Boo. The whole point of this was to stop any more rips from happening that go through Gary. I'm happy that this has been accomplished. If we can get anything back in terms of compensation from all this, it's an added bonus as far as I'm concerned. Do I feel I deserve my money back? Yes. Do I think it's going to happen? Probably not.
Lee >>
Definitely not going to happen. But it's important to put this in perspective. $30? I usually find I've been hosed for that much money-- via an Ebay deal gone wrong, or something similar-- every morning before I put on a clean pair of boxers. Hell, I sent this guy 23 PSA graded cards for the 'Cards 4 Kids' charity that I paid $10 to ship, and the cards were probably worth another $15, so I'm in for $25 right there.
Such is life, Lee. The unscrupulous prey upon the gullible and trustworthy. It's always been that way, and it's never going to change. I certainly fall into the gullible camp (not always the trustworthy camp, although I am more honest than most), and I think many--if not most-- here do as well, so I'm surprised at the level of shock and outrage that this series of events has produced.
Just let it go, guys. I know that's not nearly as fun as beating on this issue for another three days, but in the final analysis you a) are not going to get your money back, b) have not been ripped off for very much money, and c) will not be participating in any future rips with Gary. That's the end of it, and in reality all you can reasonably ask for.
Boo --- one aspect for many however, is the number of rips that have taken place thru Gary.
I was in for: --- a full 80s baseball (ended Thanksgiving, not ajws) --- a full 80s football (that was Vintage Jeff, not sure if 80s was involved) --- late70/early80 baseball -- $103 --- 70s/80s football -- $155
the last two were both north of $100 to participate.
Even with your math --- and assuming he did in fact tamper with our packs --- I'm out probably $150 or more.
That does sting a little --- especially when I think what I could have bought direct from BBCE. My actual outlay of cash is around $250 on those 4 rips. That's a lot of clean product that I could have ripped.
-t
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>Boo --- one aspect for many however, is the number of rips that have taken place thru Gary.
I was in for: --- a full 80s baseball (ended Thanksgiving, not ajws) --- a full 80s football (that was Vintage Jeff, not sure if 80s was involved) --- late70/early80 baseball -- $103 --- 70s/80s football -- $155
the last two were both north of $100 to participate.
Even with your math --- and assuming he did in fact tamper with our packs --- I'm out probably $150 or more.
That does sting a little --- especially when I think what I could have bought direct from BBCE. My actual outlay of cash is around $250 on those 4 rips. That's a lot of clean product that I could have ripped.
I understand what you are saying Boo, but like Blindflyer said he alone has participated in 4 rips (I participated in the same 4) and some guys bought more than 1 lot, some guys bought 2 and some more. So it does start to add up.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
3 out of 4 plus the basketball tha we have not received yet.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
<< <i>I agree Boo. The whole point of this was to stop any more rips from happening that go through Gary. I'm happy that this has been accomplished. If we can get anything back in terms of compensation from all this, it's an added bonus as far as I'm concerned. Do I feel I deserve my money back? Yes. Do I think it's going to happen? Probably not.
Lee >>
Yeah! Yeah! What he said!!!!
Seriously, though... Boopotts makes a good point. Am I going to have the house foreclosed upon by what I was swindled out of the money for the three rips I participated i (if indeed we were)? No.
But, (at least circumstantially, it appears) we were led into vintage pack rips by a resealer (at worst) or by someone who was getting us to buy BBCE's boxes for him, and providing us with junk. (At best.)
I suppose the group's lack of vigilance holds some responsibility.
I think what has everyone angered is the feeling of getting cheated. It is a violation of trust, and our ability to trust another person is a private and personal thing.
Are we due some sort of refund? Yes, I think we are.
Do I think we'll get one?
Well, if you think so, my girlfriend and I picked up a sweet deal on this bridge while on vacation last week. If you are interested in purchasing it, let me know.
Ya know, this is not a court of law but rather the Court of Public Opinion - if we take the preponderance of the evidence - tho circumstantial - tho no direct witness - it leads to one thing:
No more rips for Gary.
And, I agree with Boo - this is about as far as this is most likely gonna go.
He may even be innocent of the main allegation - but his trust factor is gone - for now.
Opening packs is similar to buying raw cards on ebay. No guarantees, I loved opening the packs, didn't plan on retiring from all the gem mint hof's I was going to pull.
How many sellers have been outed for overgrading their raw cards, a risk you take imo. To many people in this hobby always looking for a bargain that they can make a buck off, those are few and far between.
I'm glad this is still just fun for me, a hobby, not trying to making money buyng raw and grading low pop cards, I have no idea who to believe on this board in this whole episode.
Is there circumstantial evidence, without a doubt. Is there definitive proof, I have yet to see it.
I have no idea how this is going to turn out, but it could have been handled a lot better in my opinion.
Why didn't anyone question the quality of their packs when they got them, I'm no expert on opening old packs, but I'd think someone would have noticed re-sealed packs.
The internet is all about leaps of faith and the suspension of cautious instincts and behaviors.
The first time I bought something on EBAY - more than a decade ago - I recall thinking, "I cannot believe I am sending this stranger a money-order." I would have been unlikely to send a telephone solicitor or a classified-advertsier money, but the interactive nature of the web eliminated most of the concerns I would have in "real life."
We have all gotten VERY comfortable with meeting people online and doing business online; our collective trust in the medium - and the few backfires we have suffered - has allowed us to believe that the net is safe. "We are experts and we are unlikely to get burned because we know what we are doing," is both our internalization of and our mistaken analysis of the circumstance.
Thus, when a stranger who we have tricked ourselves into thinking is a close associate ill-performs, we feel "shocked and outraged."
It is about money, too, but mostly it is about our having made faulty judgements that we have to punish ourselves for. Part of enduring that punishment - and fighting the guilt we feel when think we have acted "stupid" and been betrayed - is the expression of "shock and outrage."
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
All nice and tidy huh boo? what about this? say a person was hoping for the top dollar card, got it, and it graded a 10! how can you just minimise/maximise what people could or not get? As far as I am concerned no one will ever know what they lost. The psa 10 of that top dollar card could have been worth hundreds.
It seems Boo is trying to give us a way to rationalize what we lost in the rips by making it seem fairly insignificant. This will in turn allow us to move on without beating a dead horse. It is probably best that we move on for our collective mental well-being. The energy we put into this will not be worth the money we get back in the unlikely event we are refunded anything. I think that's what he was getting at.
I do however, agree with Steve that many big cards that would have been in our collections are in Gary's, and to trivialize that would be defeating the whole purpose of why most of us come on these boards- to improve our knowledge and increase our collections.
I agree a lot with Boo, but also with Steve. What to do?
<< <i>All nice and tidy huh boo? what about this? say a person was hoping for the top dollar card, got it, and it graded a 10! how can you just minimise/maximise what people could or not get? As far as I am concerned no one will ever know what they lost. The psa 10 of that top dollar card could have been worth hundreds.
Steve >>
did anyone see what the PSA Lamber Rookie just went for off Ebay. I will find the link to the page and post it here in a bit.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
4. Weak explanaitions to board members who took part in group rips..
5. Deletion of thread...
6. Selling out on Ebay...
At best, his credibility is shot. At worst, he stole from fellow board members. Even though this is not all about money, my opinion is that he should offer a no questions asked refund to everyone who asks for one. This could be the first step in regaining some goodwill. I think that, by and large, this is an agreeable bunch of people that can forgive and move on. Just don't insult this group of obviously experienced collectors,(for the most part), with shady practices and expect them to look the other way. Good luck to all of you in getting some satisfaction in this matter.
ROBERT I HAVE OFFERED A REFUND ON THE BASKETBALL RIP AND ANY UNOPENED FOOTBALL PACKS. I AM NOT GOING TO REFUND PACKS ALREADY RIPPED OPEN. NO ONE WOULD DO THAT.
<< <i>It seems Boo is trying to give us a way to rationalize what we lost in the rips by making it seem fairly insignificant. This will in turn allow us to move on without beating a dead horse. It is probably best that we move on for our collective mental well-being. The energy we put into this will not be worth the money we get back in the unlikely event we are refunded anything. I think that's what he was getting at.
I do however, agree with Steve that many big cards that would have been in our collections are in Gary's, and to trivialize that would be defeating the whole purpose of why most of us come on these boards- to improve our knowledge and increase our collections.
I agree a lot with Boo, but also with Steve. What to do?
Lee >>
My point is that when you're trying to calculate an expected loss-- and that's all this is, since you don't know what cards would have specifically been yours--you figure out what the expected value would have been of your cards and use that number, since it's the only number available to you. Put another way; if you're trying to figure out just what the $$ value of the rip-off was, what else can you draw upon?
And frankly, Steve, I could do without the inflammatory tone in your post. If you choose not to look at things in the perspective I presented, and choose to rail on senselessly about what 'could have been', then recognize that by that logic I should be able to charge the guy who stole my wallet last month with Grand Theft since it had a Megabucks ticket in it that 'could have been worth millions'.
AND AS FAR AS SELLING A BUNCH OFF ON EBAY IVE HAD IT THE LAST 24 HOURS ESPECIALLY WEHEN A FEW DECIDED TO GO OVER AND BUY STUFF IN MY EBAY STORE JUST TO GET MY CONTACT INFO AND LEAVE NEG FEEDBACK. SO YEAH AFTER 20 YEARS OF COLLECTING I'M DONE. I NOW FEEL LIKE THE GUYS WHO USED TO ALWAYS ASK WHATS SO SPECIAL ABOUT A PICE OF CARDBOARD. SO I WILL CLEAR OUT THE SHOP ON EBAY AND EVERYTHING IN MY WHEREHOUSE WILL STAY THERE FOR AWHILE.
If you want to clear your name and show that you are truly honest and above board you should offer something to those board members that feel mistreated. Simply put, it is the right thing to do morally. If you have done this, please accept my apologies. I don't believe that you have. IMO, offering a refund for the unopened packs is only a good start, not a final solution to this issue. I hope this works out for you and the board members so that everyone can return to the fun this hobby provides.
<< <i>My point is that when you're trying to calculate an expected loss-- and that's all this is, >>
But boo, how do you calculate lost trust? You can't put a $ figure on that...
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
And frankly, Steve, I could do without the inflammatory tone in your post. If you choose not to look at things in the perspective I presented, and choose to rail on senselessly about what 'could have been', then recognize that by that logic I should be able to charge the guy who stole my wallet last month with Grand Theft since it had a Megabucks ticket in it that 'could have been worth millions'.
Another silly analogy Boo. IMO
Fyi I was not trying to be inflammatory to you. I was simply presenting my perspective, I did look at yours and replied in kind.
<< <i>"But boo, how do you calculate lost trust? You can't put a $ figure on that... "
//////////////////////////////////////////////
The value of the redemption found by the offender in full confession and making things right is the only recompense the betrayed can ever find.
There ain't nobody to see about putting a dollar figure on lost trust. >>
AMEN!
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>This is just getting crazier you guys think what you want I can sit here all night and try to defend myself to the masses. If you were invloved in the rips and want me to answer something please pm me. because Im not gonna get anywhere trying to defend myself on the thread. I'll say it again all the rips on here have been legit and will do whatever it takes to prove that to whom it matters too. so goodnight for 2nite I feel like i aged 10 years in the last hour and im tired. >>
I'm ready to cut to the chase - I don't want answers, I want a refund! I am brand new to this board, but not new to smelling a rat. The first post I made on this board was for the late 70's early 80's baseball rip. I got my packs and ripped them all in front of another board member (who had tipped me off on both the initial group rip, and now on this thread). I distinctly remember commenting on how the packs seemed loose. There was one pack that had more than a full piece of gum in it! I chalked it up to the fact that I'm only 30 so when some of those earlier cards were packaged, I was still in diapers... My best pull was a 2nd year Gwynn that wouldn't pull a 7 but I had figured it was just some bad luck. Then again, when you're ripping 1 pack out of what was it, 16 different boxes? you'd think you could see more than 1 star card.
Hell, in lieu of a refund, I'll take a few packs of late 70's early 80's cards that you can repack with just Jim Gantner cards. They're worthless to you, and maybe I could actually use one!
Oh, totally agree that the boxes pictured on his thread and the one's from the E-bay buy are indeed the same. That one is a flat out lie. My question was around the packs/boxes sent out for the board rips and is he sitting on a bunch of good stuff right now stashed in his house. I am guessing that if he pulled a switch or pulled all of the nicely centered stars he didn't sell them on E-bay yet or you guys would have really had his a**.
Oh, totally agree that the boxes pictured on his thread and the one's from the E-bay buy are indeed the same. That one is a flat out lie. My question was around the packs/boxes sent out for the board rips and is he sitting on a bunch of good stuff right now stashed in his house. I am guessing that if he pulled a switch or pulled all of the nicely centered stars he didn't sell them on E-bay yet or you guys would have really had his a**.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
[q. I NOW FEEL LIKE THE GUYS WHO USED TO ALWAYS ASK WHATS SO SPECIAL ABOUT A PICE OF CARDBOARD. SO I WILL CLEAR OUT THE SHOP ON EBAY AND EVERYTHING IN MY WHEREHOUSE WILL STAY THERE FOR AWHILE. >>
Can we start a poll to see the level of education of Mr. Trump here? My guess is 7th grade...
Successful dealings with Wcsportscards94558, EagleEyeKid, SamsGirl214, Volver, DwayneDrain, Oaksey25, Griffins, Cardfan07, Etc.
Comments
The 70/80s football rip was my first, and there was NOTHING mentioned in the thread by 80s junkie of what he buys and sells on ebay. If he were buying and selling legos, I dont need to know, but if hes buying and re-selling items that COULD be used to de-fraud the rip, that is something he should have been up front about.
He is absolutely guilty of mis-leading those of us who bought into the football rip. And for that, he should be sending out refunds and I will return him the wrappers and cards. I guess then he will re-sell them to some other sucker on ebay.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>At a BARE minimum, his suspicious activities should have been disclosed prior to the rip. Then we, the public, could have made a more informed decision to take part or not.
The 70/80s football rip was my first, and there was NOTHING mentioned in the thread by 80s junkie of what he buys and sells on ebay. If he were buying and selling legos, I dont need to know, but if hes buying and re-selling items that COULD be used to de-fraud the rip, that is something he should have been up front about.
He is absolutely guilty of mis-leading those of us who bought into the football rip. And for that, he should be sending out refunds and I will return him the wrappers and cards. I guess then he will re-sell them to some other sucker on ebay.
Jason >>
Given that he was buying wrappers, lots, etc of the SAME items he was putting together for us in the rips, I agree with this post 100%.
Well said.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Often times it's just because there wasnt enough information but I dont think it took long for things to unfold.
<< <i>My spidey sense told me something was up when he muscled in on Chris's 70's-80's football rip. >>
I turned mine off when I saw many respected, knowledgable, trusted names signing up for the rip. I figured with so many of the regulars from the forum involved, it would be a safe bet.
I guess we all got fooled. Thank goodness it was only $150...And thanks to those who prevented it from happening to anyone else.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> It's always astounded me how much effort some criminals will put in to defraud people, when the same effort would yield the same or more money in a legitimate pursuit.
Joe >>
I wonder the same thing all the time.
Don't know if it's in the upbringing or just a screw loose.
Either way, I'm more on the side of pity than anger. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Sure looks like the same guy, just older. But I talked to the gary in Ontario as recently as 9 months ago, just a coincidence I guess???
Well, at least I was able to save you a few bucks I guess.
Lee
That in it self seems deceitful.
Stephanie's Sportscards.
My Auctions
<< <i>And is what you propose having happened any better? We, as a group, decide to purchase a box from BBCE for ($300.00). That box is kept, and another is purchased from "somewhere" for ($150.) Where is the extra ($150) going to? >>
80sjunkie:
<< <i>2 days before the superbowl and I get a call from this grocery store that just opened. I won a 52 inch big screen hdtv in there grand opening drawing . I still cant belive it. Just had to share my excitement
Yeah i was worried about the taxes but they didnt make me fill out anything. all I did was show them my id to make sure it was me and they loaded it in my truck and off I went I coudnt believe it no signature notta thing .
Of course I'll be honest and report it to th irs
Got it all set up intime to watch the game
>>
<< <i>Hey wolf, thanks for letting me get in on one of the vintage FB lots you had reserved. No really.... thanks man. Like I need this aggravation.
Well, at least I was able to save you a few bucks I guess.
Lee >>
Sorry about that dude. I owe you an imported beer or two ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>
<< <i>Hey wolf, thanks for letting me get in on one of the vintage FB lots you had reserved. No really.... thanks man. Like I need this aggravation.
Well, at least I was able to save you a few bucks I guess.
Lee >>
Sorry about that dude. I owe you an imported beer or two ...
I'm in!
My Auctions
<< <i>I just want one answer from Gary regarding these allegations that I can say to myself as a logically thinking person: "Well, that makes sense". It's been over 16 hours since he's been aware of all this and I have yet to hear something that makes sense, or see a picture of his bartop or collage for which he was buying all the wrappers, which he very well might be trying to put together as we speak.
To be honest, I'm not sure how much farther this can go cosidering we're never going to have visual or eyewitness proof, and he's never going to fess up if he did it. I see this going around in circles from this point forward. I hope I'm wrong and we reach some type of closure.
Lee >>
I'm pretty sure I know how much farther this can go, and the answer is 'it can't'. He's never going to 'fess up, as it were, because there's no incentive to do so, and nobody here is going to be able to prove anything. Why people are still playing Columbo and digging around in buried threads to try and find more posts that Gary needs to explain is beyond me, since none of this will precipitate a confession, but hey-- whatever pops your corn.
Re: the rips. Here's a fun way to look at it. Assume that the cards you can expect to pull in a given vintage pack are worth, on average, about 50% of what you paid. Thus, if you pay $150 for some vintage packs you can expect, on average, about $75 worth of cards. This 50% number seems a little high to me, but for now let's go with that. Now, one thing we DO know is that if these packs were, in fact, searched, certainly not all of them were searched, as evidenced by the pulling of the Montana RC. Again, just for fun let's say that 50% of the packs were searched.
So, we have an outlay of $150. Of that, we expect to lose $75 bucks the minute we open the packs. And of that $75 of equity which remains we still get $37.50, because half of the packs weren't searched. Further, you do get SOME cards for your money, so let's say the cards that are left from the searched packs are worth, on average, $5. Thus, Gary has ripped everyone off to the tune of about $32.50.
If you figure that Gary should have been compensated in some small way for organizing the rips and so forth-- let's say $2.50 per lot-- then you get an even $30. You can choose to include this or not, but in any case each person who participated is looking at having been torched for something in the $30-$40 range.
Is that a drag? Sure it is. Nobody likes to be taken. But if you're basically an honest and trustworthy guy you are going to get burned from time to time, and there's rarely anything you can do about it. Just be glad the losses were small, and try to be more vigilant next time.
good stuff!
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
I agree Boo. The whole point of this was to stop any more rips from happening that go through Gary. I'm happy that this has been accomplished. If we can get anything back in terms of compensation from all this, it's an added bonus as far as I'm concerned. Do I feel I deserve my money back? Yes. Do I think it's going to happen? Probably not.
Lee
<< <i>Boo, I beg to differ. I just found a book report that Gary wrote in the 5th grade about Tom Sawyer that reads, and I quote.......................
I agree Boo. The whole point of this was to stop any more rips from happening that go through Gary. I'm happy that this has been accomplished. If we can get anything back in terms of compensation from all this, it's an added bonus as far as I'm concerned. Do I feel I deserve my money back? Yes. Do I think it's going to happen? Probably not.
Lee >>
Definitely not going to happen. But it's important to put this in perspective. $30? I usually find I've been hosed for that much money-- via an Ebay deal gone wrong, or something similar-- every morning before I put on a clean pair of boxers. Hell, I sent this guy 23 PSA graded cards for the 'Cards 4 Kids' charity that I paid $10 to ship, and the cards were probably worth another $15, so I'm in for $25 right there.
Such is life, Lee. The unscrupulous prey upon the gullible and trustworthy. It's always been that way, and it's never going to change. I certainly fall into the gullible camp (not always the trustworthy camp, although I am more honest than most), and I think many--if not most-- here do as well, so I'm surprised at the level of shock and outrage that this series of events has produced.
Just let it go, guys. I know that's not nearly as fun as beating on this issue for another three days, but in the final analysis you a) are not going to get your money back, b) have not been ripped off for very much money, and c) will not be participating in any future rips with Gary. That's the end of it, and in reality all you can reasonably ask for.
I was in for:
--- a full 80s baseball (ended Thanksgiving, not ajws)
--- a full 80s football (that was Vintage Jeff, not sure if 80s was involved)
--- late70/early80 baseball -- $103
--- 70s/80s football -- $155
the last two were both north of $100 to participate.
Even with your math --- and assuming he did in fact tamper with our packs --- I'm out probably $150 or more.
That does sting a little --- especially when I think what I could have bought direct from BBCE. My actual outlay of cash is around $250 on those 4 rips. That's a lot of clean product that I could have ripped.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>Boo --- one aspect for many however, is the number of rips that have taken place thru Gary.
I was in for:
--- a full 80s baseball (ended Thanksgiving, not ajws)
--- a full 80s football (that was Vintage Jeff, not sure if 80s was involved)
--- late70/early80 baseball -- $103
--- 70s/80s football -- $155
the last two were both north of $100 to participate.
Even with your math --- and assuming he did in fact tamper with our packs --- I'm out probably $150 or more.
That does sting a little --- especially when I think what I could have bought direct from BBCE. My actual outlay of cash is around $250 on those 4 rips. That's a lot of clean product that I could have ripped.
-t >>
How many rips did Gary orchestrate?
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
JDRF Donation
<< <i>How many rips did Gary orchestrate? >>
3 out of 4 plus the basketball tha we have not received yet.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
JDRF Donation
<< <i>
<< <i>How many rips did Gary orchestrate? >>
3 out of 4 plus the basketball tha we have not received yet. >>
Wow. Well, that is alot of alleged resealing.
One question. What is the theory behind the reason why Gary was buying wrappers and off-grade '78 lots off of Ebay?
<< <i>How many rips did Gary orchestrate? >>
Known rips:
Non-Gary:
1. Ajw's baseball
2. Vintage jeff football
3. 75 mini case
4. Bob's hockey
Gary:
1. Full 80s baseball
2. 70/80s baseball
3. 70/80s football (took from Chris)
4. 80s basketball
5. 78 Baseball case (took from Bunker)
Not sure if this is a comprehensive list...
...but Gary "shipped" 4 of the 5 I have listed for him.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>I agree Boo. The whole point of this was to stop any more rips from happening that go through Gary. I'm happy that this has been accomplished. If we can get anything back in terms of compensation from all this, it's an added bonus as far as I'm concerned. Do I feel I deserve my money back? Yes. Do I think it's going to happen? Probably not.
Lee >>
Yeah! Yeah! What he said!!!!
Seriously, though... Boopotts makes a good point. Am I going to have the house foreclosed upon by what I was swindled out of the money for the three rips I participated i (if indeed we were)? No.
But, (at least circumstantially, it appears) we were led into vintage pack rips by a resealer (at worst) or by someone who was getting us to buy BBCE's boxes for him, and providing us with junk. (At best.)
I suppose the group's lack of vigilance holds some responsibility.
I think what has everyone angered is the feeling of getting cheated. It is a violation of trust, and our ability to trust another person is a private and personal thing.
Are we due some sort of refund? Yes, I think we are.
Do I think we'll get one?
Well, if you think so, my girlfriend and I picked up a sweet deal on this bridge while on vacation last week. If you are interested in purchasing it, let me know.
Only an idiot would have a message board signature.
Ya know, this is not a court of law but rather the Court of Public Opinion - if we take the preponderance of the evidence - tho circumstantial - tho no direct witness - it leads to one thing:
No more rips for Gary.
And, I agree with Boo - this is about as far as this is most likely gonna go.
He may even be innocent of the main allegation - but his trust factor is gone - for now.
mike
Opening packs is similar to buying raw cards on ebay. No guarantees, I loved opening the packs, didn't plan on retiring from all the gem mint hof's I was going to pull.
How many sellers have been outed for overgrading their raw cards, a risk you take imo. To many people in this hobby always looking for a bargain that they can make a buck off, those are few and far between.
I'm glad this is still just fun for me, a hobby, not trying to making money buyng raw and grading low pop cards, I have no idea who to believe on this board in this whole episode.
Is there circumstantial evidence, without a doubt. Is there definitive proof, I have yet to see it.
I have no idea how this is going to turn out, but it could have been handled a lot better in my opinion.
Why didn't anyone question the quality of their packs when they got them, I'm no expert on opening old packs, but I'd think someone would have noticed re-sealed packs.
Peace
45% complete.
So does that mean I'm *not* going to get to watch all you guys on Judge Judy?
Dammit, Boo - you ruined everything!
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I am too, but we probably should not be.
The internet is all about leaps of faith and the suspension
of cautious instincts and behaviors.
The first time I bought something on EBAY - more than a
decade ago - I recall thinking, "I cannot believe I am sending
this stranger a money-order." I would have been unlikely to
send a telephone solicitor or a classified-advertsier money,
but the interactive nature of the web eliminated most of the
concerns I would have in "real life."
We have all gotten VERY comfortable with meeting people
online and doing business online; our collective trust in
the medium - and the few backfires we have suffered -
has allowed us to believe that the net is safe. "We are
experts and we are unlikely to get burned because we know
what we are doing," is both our internalization of and our
mistaken analysis of the circumstance.
Thus, when a stranger who we have tricked ourselves into
thinking is a close associate ill-performs, we feel "shocked and
outraged."
It is about money, too, but mostly it is about our having made
faulty judgements that we have to punish ourselves for. Part
of enduring that punishment - and fighting the guilt we feel
when think we have acted "stupid" and been betrayed - is the
expression of "shock and outrage."
Steve
I do however, agree with Steve that many big cards that would have been in our collections are in Gary's, and to trivialize that would be defeating the whole purpose of why most of us come on these boards- to improve our knowledge and increase our collections.
I agree a lot with Boo, but also with Steve. What to do?
Lee
<< <i>All nice and tidy huh boo? what about this? say a person was hoping for the top dollar card, got it, and it graded a 10! how can you just minimise/maximise what people could or not get? As far as I am concerned no one will ever know what they lost. The psa 10 of that top dollar card could have been worth hundreds.
Steve >>
did anyone see what the PSA Lamber Rookie just went for off Ebay. I will find the link to the page and post it here in a bit.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Lambert PSA 10 RC
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
1.Possible pack switching...
2.Fabricated story about 86 Fleer box...
3. Purchase of wrappers involved in group rips...
4. Weak explanaitions to board members who took part in group rips..
5. Deletion of thread...
6. Selling out on Ebay...
At best, his credibility is shot. At worst, he stole from fellow board members. Even though this is not all about money, my opinion is that he should offer a no questions asked refund to everyone who asks for one. This could be the first step in regaining some goodwill. I think that, by and large, this is an agreeable bunch of people that can forgive and move on. Just don't insult this group of obviously experienced collectors,(for the most part), with shady practices and expect them to look the other way. Good luck to all of you in getting some satisfaction in this matter.
Robert
<< <i>It seems Boo is trying to give us a way to rationalize what we lost in the rips by making it seem fairly insignificant. This will in turn allow us to move on without beating a dead horse. It is probably best that we move on for our collective mental well-being. The energy we put into this will not be worth the money we get back in the unlikely event we are refunded anything. I think that's what he was getting at.
I do however, agree with Steve that many big cards that would have been in our collections are in Gary's, and to trivialize that would be defeating the whole purpose of why most of us come on these boards- to improve our knowledge and increase our collections.
I agree a lot with Boo, but also with Steve. What to do?
Lee >>
My point is that when you're trying to calculate an expected loss-- and that's all this is, since you don't know what cards would have specifically been yours--you figure out what the expected value would have been of your cards and use that number, since it's the only number available to you. Put another way; if you're trying to figure out just what the $$ value of the rip-off was, what else can you draw upon?
And frankly, Steve, I could do without the inflammatory tone in your post. If you choose not to look at things in the perspective I presented, and choose to rail on senselessly about what 'could have been', then recognize that by that logic I should be able to charge the guy who stole my wallet last month with Grand Theft since it had a Megabucks ticket in it that 'could have been worth millions'.
<< <i>I AM NOT GOING TO REFUND PACKS ALREADY RIPPED OPEN. >>
Probably could've been worded better.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
The only one was a water damaged '85 Elway.
I felt sick opening all those packs when I was through.
Bad luck---not that bad
Robert
<< <i>My point is that when you're trying to calculate an expected loss-- and that's all this is, >>
But boo, how do you calculate lost trust? You can't put a $ figure on that...
//////////////////////////////////////////////
The value of the redemption found by the offender in full confession
and making things right is the only recompense the betrayed can ever
find.
There ain't nobody to see about putting a dollar figure on lost trust.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>i am still waiting to hear about where the 84 topps football box and packs came from. >>
I'm fairly certain that Gary bought these from some other source (like ebay).
However, I pulled this exact card from my 84 pack from the rip --- so it was definitely not resealed/tampered.
...but it likely didn't come from BBCE.
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Another silly analogy Boo. IMO
Fyi I was not trying to be inflammatory to you. I was simply presenting my perspective, I did look at yours and replied in kind.
Steve
<< <i>"But boo, how do you calculate lost trust? You can't put a $ figure on that... "
//////////////////////////////////////////////
The value of the redemption found by the offender in full confession
and making things right is the only recompense the betrayed can ever
find.
There ain't nobody to see about putting a dollar figure on lost trust. >>
AMEN!
<< <i>This is just getting crazier you guys think what you want I can sit here all night and try to defend myself to the masses. If you were invloved in the rips and want me to answer something please pm me. because Im not gonna get anywhere trying to defend myself on the thread. I'll say it again all the rips on here have been legit and will do whatever it takes to prove that to whom it matters too. so goodnight for 2nite I feel like i aged 10 years in the last hour and im tired. >>
I'm ready to cut to the chase - I don't want answers, I want a refund! I am brand new to this board, but not new to smelling a rat. The first post I made on this board was for the late 70's early 80's baseball rip. I got my packs and ripped them all in front of another board member (who had tipped me off on both the initial group rip, and now on this thread). I distinctly remember commenting on how the packs seemed loose. There was one pack that had more than a full piece of gum in it! I chalked it up to the fact that I'm only 30 so when some of those earlier cards were packaged, I was still in diapers... My best pull was a 2nd year Gwynn that wouldn't pull a 7 but I had figured it was just some bad luck. Then again, when you're ripping 1 pack out of what was it, 16 different boxes? you'd think you could see more than 1 star card.
Hell, in lieu of a refund, I'll take a few packs of late 70's early 80's cards that you can repack with just Jim Gantner cards. They're worthless to you, and maybe I could actually use one!
<< <i>Softparade,
Oh, totally agree that the boxes pictured on his thread and the one's from the E-bay buy are indeed the same. That one is a flat out lie. My question was around the packs/boxes sent out for the board rips and is he sitting on a bunch of good stuff right now stashed in his house. I am guessing that if he pulled a switch or pulled all of the nicely centered stars he didn't sell them on E-bay yet or you guys would have really had his a**.
Ken >>
That's because he gets them graded and sells them from his NAXCOM store: http://www.naxcom.com/vipAction.do?id=64243
<< <i>
<< <i>Softparade,
Oh, totally agree that the boxes pictured on his thread and the one's from the E-bay buy are indeed the same. That one is a flat out lie. My question was around the packs/boxes sent out for the board rips and is he sitting on a bunch of good stuff right now stashed in his house. I am guessing that if he pulled a switch or pulled all of the nicely centered stars he didn't sell them on E-bay yet or you guys would have really had his a**.
Ken >>
That's because he gets them graded and sells them from his NAXCOM store: http://www.naxcom.com/vipAction.do?id=64243 >>
Link
Can we start a poll to see the level of education of Mr. Trump here? My guess is 7th grade...