You gotta love my Favre guy, but I find myself wondering what he could do if given the targets Brady has to throw to??? I also can't see Peyton above Favre on the list.
Both of these guys lit it up when they had nothing for a running game. Marino I think had one thousand yard rusher. Favre won MVP's with Edgar Bennett averaging 3.6 yds a carry.
Brady has moved up to my top 10 now, but he needs alot more years like this one to break the top 5...Favre has also moved past Marino in my eyes. Adding this year (maybe his best ever) to his long list of MVPs and records that he keeps breaking gets him to #5. The INTs are a still a big negative for him, but what he's doing at his age, plus never missing a game is just amazing. No one else on this list did it as well when they were "over the hill" age wise...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Its interesting to see that when Manning had a game where is group of Wr's was depleted he had 6 INTS....hmmm...kinda Favre like when he only had Driver a few years ago!! Now Favre has a group that catches and makes plays and all of a sudden the INT's fall and TD's rise. All top Qb's will force a ball to make a play to win a game. If they didnt they would be in the group of Qb's bringing up the middle of the pack.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
I'm sorry, but Manning doesn't have the body of work that Marino, Favre or Elway have for modern QB's. So he can't go ahead of them. What he does on the field and his knowledge of the system are incredible, but skills wise and total performance he is behind the those three.
As for the 3 mentioned above: Favre is above Marino due to the Superbowl. Their numbers are similar. Neither has had a running game.
I would put Elway ahead of Marino due to the fact the Marino was only able to carry the Dolphins on his back to one Superbowl and Elway did it twice over my beloved Browns. It those years it was all Elway in Denver. He then found a running game and got 2 Superbowls.
I'm sorry but championship mean a lot when it comes to the team leader role of quarterback.
<< <i>Its interesting to see that when Manning had a game where is group of Wr's was depleted he had 6 INTS....hmmm...kinda Favre like when he only had Driver a few years ago!! Now Favre has a group that catches and makes plays and all of a sudden the INT's fall and TD's rise. All top Qb's will force a ball to make a play to win a game. If they didnt they would be in the group of Qb's bringing up the middle of the pack. >>
I don't think thats a good argument for comparing QBs. Now obviously a top flight WR combined with a top flight QB is typically going to bring top flight results. Same can be said of a QB that plays for a good coach/winning team or for one with a good running game or with a good defense supporting him.
If you want to factor in all of these things then don't even bother trying to rank the guys.
Just for the heck of it, I wanted to compare Brady vs. Favre. Brady has played in 107 career games, which is about where Favre was after the 1998 season (113 games). Brady has, not even arguably, had MUCH WORSE WRs to throw to over his first 107 games than Favre did. Favre had Sterling Sharpe and Antonio Freeman during those years, both made the Pro Bowl at different times. Brady had who? Troy Brown? Now this year he finally has Moss and the others.
Anyway, comparing each players TD to INT ratio over the same (approx) amount of games--
Brady throws a TD in 5.38% of his attempts, and 2.37% INTs. Favre throw a TD in 5.68% of his attempts, and 3.14% INTs.
I do agree that the "great" QBs will typically take more risks and receive higher rewards. Favre was/is a gunslinger no doubt. He's got the numbers to prove it, and is why I rank him #5 on my all-time list. I don't think there's any debating (in my eyes) of putting Favre over Unitas, Montana or Otto Graham. Anyone who believes that simply didn;t watch enough of those 3 to make the comparison. I do think an argument could be made Peyton vs. Favre. I rank Peyton slightly higher strictly by what I have seen him do on the field. His playcalling abilities, plus when he makes those "tight" throws, he somehow does it without looking careless. Don't get me wrong, this isn't his best season and he's made some mistakes. I'm sure it does have alot to do with losing Harrison, the guy he is most comfortable throwing to. But Favre, throughout his career has been careless with ALOT of his tight throws. Really trying to make passes that he wouldn't have completed if Jerry Rice, Randy Moss and Marvin Harrison were all his WRs.
For any Packers fan, who's probably watched every pass Favre has ever thrown, you have to admit he's had a penchant for basically "throwing blind" at times. But with Favre, that came with the package.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Just a heads up...Gayle will be sending out a poll shortly about the Tomlinson and Dunn additions to the All-Time Rushers set. Based on cards that are already included in the Future HOF'ers and All-Time Chargers and Buccaneers sets, the 2001 Topps Chrome LT and 1997 SP Dunn are the cards likely to be chosen.
It seems as if voting on cards that have already been voted into others sets, and more or less already established as key rookie cards, is a new initiative from PSA. They may be creating more work for themselves, but I guess it's all in the interest of ensuring that the correct card is chosen, which is absolutely fine with me.
As for my QBs:
1. Montana 2. Unitas 3. Manning 4. Marino 5. Graham 6. Elway 7. Tarkenton 8. Baugh 9. Favre (Too many picks and boneheaded plays over the years cancel out some of the greatness) 10. Jurgensen 11. Brady (Obviously can move up much higher) 12. Fouts 13. Staubach
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
FYI, Pro Football HOF will announce the 25 Modern Semi-Finalists for the Class of 2008 this afternoon.
Should be interesting as always to see who does and does not make the first cut.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I really dont care where Favre falls on the list. There are always agruments for and against players, eras etc.
Manning has had Harrison with him for all but a handfull of his games (maybe 8 at most). When you have a two players like of a high level, that have played together for that long that makes a huge difference. Favre had Sharpe from 92 to the end of the 94 regular season. Freeman didnt play much at WR until 96 (rookie in 95) and then left in either 2000 or 02. Brooks was the main man in 95-96 until he hurt his leg in mid 96 and missed the end of the season and playoffs. Driver is actually the WR Favre has had the longest.
Sharpe went to 3 probowls with Favre, Freeman 1, Brooks 0, Driver 2 and Walker 1. so 7 probowls between 5 main wrs in his career.
Harrison has gone to 8 probowls and reggie wayne has gone to 1. thats 9 probowls between 2 wrs.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Ken Anderson QB Steve At-water S Tony Boselli T Cris Carter WR Terrell Davis RB Dermontti Dawson C Richard Dent DE Chris Doleman DE/LB Randy Gradishar LB Darrell Green CB Kevin Greene LB Russ Grimm G Ray Guy P Charles Haley DE/LB Lester Hayes CB Bob Kuechenberg G Randall McDaniel G Art Monk WR Andre Reed WR Ed Sabol NFL Films Ken Stabler QB Paul Tagliabue Commissioner Derrick Thomas LB Andre Tippett LB Gary Zimmerman T
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'd much rather have Favre on my team over Manning, Marino, or Elway. Manning has folded a lot in crunch times of games and, as a lot of posters have mentioned, how great would he have been without Harrison (a top 10 receiver of all time)? Out of these four, Manning has had the best WR corps by far, followed by Marino. Elway and Favre had comparable receiving corps over the years, but Elway never would have won a SB without Terrell Davis. It would have been 2 Super Bowls for Favre and 1 for Elway if TD didn't steal the show in the Packers-Broncos SB.
Here are the 2008 top 25...They will pare this down to 15 prior to the vote:
Cris Carter, WR – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins Terrell Davis, RB – 1995-2001 Denver Broncos Dermontti Dawson, C – 1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers Fred Dean, DE – 1975-1981 San Diego Chargers, 1981-85 San Francisco 49ers Richard Dent, DE – 1983-1993, 1995 Chicago Bears, 1994 San Francisco 49ers, 1996 Indianapolis Colts, 1997 Philadelphia Eagles Randy Gradishar, LB – 1974-1983 Denver Broncos Darrell Green, CB – 1983-2002 Washington Redskins Kevin Greene, LB/DE – 1985-1992 Los Angeles Rams, 1993-95 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996, 1998-99 Carolina Panthers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers Russ Grimm, G – 1981-1991 Washington Redskins Ray Guy, P – 1973-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders Charles Haley, DE/LB – 1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys Lester Hayes, CB – 1977-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders Rickey Jackson, LB – 1981-1993 New Orleans Saints, 1994-95 San Francisco 49ers Joe Jacoby, T – 1981-1993 Washington Redskins Cortez Kennedy, DT – 1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks Bob Kuechenberg, G – 1970-1984 Miami Dolphins Randall McDaniel, G – 1988-1999 Minnesota Vikings, 2000-01 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Art Monk, WR – 1980-1993 Washington Redskins, 1994 New York Jets, 1995 Philadelphia Eagles Andre Reed, WR –1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins Ken Stabler, QB – 1970-79 Oakland Raiders, 1980-81 Houston Oilers, 1982-84 New Orleans Saints Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner – 1989-2006 National Football League Steve Tasker, Special Teams/WR – 1985-1986 Houston Oilers, 1986-1997 Buffalo Bills Derrick Thomas, LB – 1989-1999 Kansas City Chiefs Andre Tippett, LB – 1982-1993 New England Patriots George Young, GM/Administrator – 1968-1974 Baltimore Colts, 1975-78 Miami Dolphins, 1979-1997 New York Giants, 1998-2001 National Football League Gary Zimmerman, T – 1986-1992 Minnesota Vikings, 1993-97 Denver Broncos
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I predict 6 modern guys make it: Cris Carter Darrell Green Russ Grimm Cortez Kennedy Paul Tagliabue Derrick Thomas
Nick >>
Nick, Maximum of 5 modern candidates can be elected in any given year...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Cris Carter, WR – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins Darrell Green, CB – 1983-2002 Washington Redskins Ray Guy, P – 1973-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders Art Monk, WR – 1980-1993 Washington Redskins, 1994 New York Jets, 1995 Philadelphia Eagles Derrick Thomas, LB – 1989-1999 Kansas City Chiefs
I like your list FavreFan, along with both senior candidates. A lot of people seem to be down on Thomas, but he had the more distinguished career between him and Goldberg. So if only one gets in, I don't think it will be Goldie. Then again, with the way these things tend to work, who the heck knows???
Does anyone have a list of how many times this year's semifinalists (players) have reached the semis? I know Kennedy, Jackson, Green and Carter are the only first-timers.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Also, if anyone is interested in a PSA 9 '68 Andy Russell, shoot me a PM.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Greg those are also my Top 5...I would move Kuechenberg up a notch though, I think he is #3 on the list...His last as a modern I think he will get a huge push this year, and will be the only O-Lineman to go in because of that.
Tagliabue and D. Thomas are the guys on the bubble. I could easily see Art Monk and a wildcard/out of nowhere guy replacing those 2.
I would put money on the fact that only ONE of the 2 Seniors will go in this year...I'm not sure which one though, Goldberg has to be the weakest modern or senior candidate I ever remember seeing. Emmitt Thomas is going to be compared with all the other HOF DBs from that era and I think he also comes up short. I mean Wehrli was a slider who barely got in, and I would take Wehrli over Thomas no question. I mean do we really put in the 13th best DB from the late 60's early 70's? Its crazy...I hope both get nixed, in my opinion neither is HOF caliber...It just dilutes the field when guys this borderline are elected...The senior committee who selected them should be fired on the spot.
Here's a list of DBs already in the HOF who played during Emmitt Thomas' career (66-78)... Herb Adderley Lem Barney Mel Blount Willie Brown Mike Haynes Ken Houston Jimmy Johnson Paul Krause Mel Renfro Roger Wehrli Larry Wilson Willie Wood
I mean jeez, no wonder QBs threw so many INTs during the 70's...lol...
I won't even get into Goldberg. Honestly don't know much about him because well..He wasn't anything more than a slightly above average player from the 40's...8 season, 77 career games..Was never considered "one of the best" even during his playing days..Not once was he 1st team All-Pro/All-NFL...I still don't get this selection...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Anybody notice that Bill Willis died yesterday? He palyed guard for the Browns 1946-53 with Motley and was inducted into Canton in 1977. I was wondering if he ever had a rookie card and if so why is it not in the HOF set?
Bill Willis had team-issued cards for 4 years during his playing days, but oddball cards are not eligible for the HOF RC set. NFL network had a cool little segment about Willis last night. Did you know he played in the AAFC a full year before Jackie Robinson played in the MLB?
Was looking over the HOF semi-finalists again, and had a couple of thoughts. Figured I would get some opinions on.
Removal of players....On the Future Modern HOF list, we chose guys who were "likely or definite" to become future HOFers...My question is, how many years do we want to wait for a guy to be at LEAST a finalist before requesting his removal from the set? Steve At-water is in his 4th year of eligibility and he has yet to be a finalist. In fact, he hasn't even made the top 25 SEMI-finals yet in his 4 years. I think if we hit 5 years without the guy being at least a finalist, we should consider removing him.
The only other player on our future HOF- Modern set that has never made the semi-finals or finals in Leroy Butler. This is his 2nd year of eligibility.
So do you guys think if At-water doesn't make the finals next year, we request his removal?
The other is new additions. There are currently only 2 modern candidate players who have been a finalist more than once yet who are not in our set:
Ken Stabler- 3 times (last in 2003) Ken Anderson- 2 times (last in 1998)
As you can see Stabler is again a semi-finalist, and next year (2009) will be his final year as a modern candidate. The question this brings up is, how many times does a guy need to make the top 15 finalists before we agree that he is a likely and/or definite HOF player? On the other side, there are guys like Jerry Kramer who was a Finalist 10 times and still didn't get in, so nothing is guaranteed...Obviously, one shot as a finalist maybe just that, a guy getting one good luck. But when the same guy goes up for debate again and again, it at least says there are alot of voters who think they are HOF worthy.
Just seems strange looking at the set from the outside point of view and seeing guys like At-water on it, whos never even been a semi-finalist while guys like Stabler are NOT on it, yet he has been a finalist 3 times and a semifinalist probably 8-10 times. Including this year and last year OVER At-water.
Any ideas what we should or shouldn't do to correct this inconsistency?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
With 8 Pro Bowls in 11 years in the NFL, and a well-earned reputation as one of the game's most feared DBs, I really question why Steve At-Water has received so little HOF consideration thus far. And wasn't he there for both Super Bowl victories? A true head-scratcher. Do the voters really hate the Broncos THAT much??? I would wait on removing him from the set for at least a few more years. As for new additions, I don't have strong feelings either way. While I don't think Stabler was a HOF QB, he's garnered enough interest from the voters that many of them obviously feel differently.
If we want to make it cut and dry, which might not be a bad thing as it will remove all subjectivity, maybe players should automatically be added to the future HOF set once they reach a certain number of times in the semis. Maybe 3?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>With 8 Pro Bowls in 11 years in the NFL, and a well-earned reputation as one of the game's most feared DBs, I really question why Steve At-Water has received so little HOF consideration thus far. And wasn't he there for both Super Bowl victories? A true head-scratcher. Do the voters really hate the Broncos THAT much??? I would wait on removing him from the set for at least a few more years. As for new additions, I don't have strong feelings either way. While I don't think Stabler was a HOF QB, he's garnered enough interest from the voters that many of them obviously feel differently.
If we want to make it cut and dry, which might not be a bad thing as it will remove all subjectivity, maybe players should automatically be added to the future HOF set once they reach a certain number of times in the semis. Maybe 3? >>
I don't think making the semi's is enough..At least be a finalist, and I would prefer they made the finals more than once. Now the guys this really applies to are the ones that we here, as a group, didn't think were likely/definite HOFers. The guys that we all agree uopn, or at least majority vote agrees on will be added or requested to be added regardless. This is mostly meant for guys like Stabler or say Tippett or Dean if either of them makes the finals again this year for a 2nd time. I'd REALLY like it to be cut and dry so there is no guessing.
For Stabler in particular, I think he will be an EASY addition to the Senior HOF list after next year, much like Gradishar or Kuechenberg this year if they do not get in. I see no reason not to add him to the Modern list, but obviously would want the majority to feel the same before requesting an add.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
In terms of automatic additions, that would work for me if there was a set number of years a player had to reach the finals (rather than the semifinals) before being added to the modern set. I guess we'd choose between 2 and 3?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Was looking over the HOF semi-finalists again, and had a couple of thoughts. Figured I would get some opinions on.
Removal of players....On the Future Modern HOF list, we chose guys who were "likely or definite" to become future HOFers...My question is, how many years do we want to wait for a guy to be at LEAST a finalist before requesting his removal from the set? Steve At-water is in his 4th year of eligibility and he has yet to be a finalist. In fact, he hasn't even made the top 25 SEMI-finals yet in his 4 years. I think if we hit 5 years without the guy being at least a finalist, we should consider removing him.
The only other player on our future HOF- Modern set that has never made the semi-finals or finals in Leroy Butler. This is his 2nd year of eligibility.
So do you guys think if At-water doesn't make the finals next year, we request his removal?
The other is new additions. There are currently only 2 modern candidate players who have been a finalist more than once yet who are not in our set:
Ken Stabler- 3 times (last in 2003) Ken Anderson- 2 times (last in 1998)
As you can see Stabler is again a semi-finalist, and next year (2009) will be his final year as a modern candidate. The question this brings up is, how many times does a guy need to make the top 15 finalists before we agree that he is a likely and/or definite HOF player? On the other side, there are guys like Jerry Kramer who was a Finalist 10 times and still didn't get in, so nothing is guaranteed...Obviously, one shot as a finalist maybe just that, a guy getting one good luck. But when the same guy goes up for debate again and again, it at least says there are alot of voters who think they are HOF worthy.
Just seems strange looking at the set from the outside point of view and seeing guys like At-water on it, whos never even been a semi-finalist while guys like Stabler are NOT on it, yet he has been a finalist 3 times and a semifinalist probably 8-10 times. Including this year and last year OVER At-water.
Any ideas what we should or shouldn't do to correct this inconsistency?
Jason >>
I think your examples of Stabler and Anderson suggest a reason to keep At-water on the list. How long have Anderson and Stabler been eligble? Yet only a few times as a finalist. You want to give up on someone only on the 4th time of eligiblity that hasnt made the list, when in the last few years there have been many first time inductees that could have been just keeping him off. You may be prevy to more info on the vote totals that I am, so maybe you have more data to suggest his removal. Yet it took Anderson 6-7 years to make it the first time to the semis!!! Right? Yet 4 years is enough for others to cut them off???
Over the last 4 years we have had Aikman, Marino, Moon, Elway, Young, Sanders, White, Matthews, and maybe a few more this years. The last couple of years might have made it hard for some others to make the cut into the 25.
Sounds like we really need some more defined rules has to how people get in/out of this set then. The first list was done as vote. I think if we keep asking for changes they might not like this idea much anymore. They have a hard enough time adding new sets and adding cards to basic and master sets.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
I have a good repore with Cosetta and Gayle, we won't have issues making changes. That being said, I'm not advocating taking At-Water off after 4 tries. Just wondering what everyone thinks would be a sufficient time frame before removal. I'm also not saying Anderson should be added. Just that it would seem he would be more deserving based on the HOF voters than At-water.
Also, we have to separate Finals from Semi-finals. The finals are the final 15. The semi's are the final 25. At-water hasn't made the SEMI-finals. I am going to go back and look through what records I have of semi-finals votes through the years and try to put together a spreadsheet. They keep official records of the final 15, but not the semi-finals. Anderson has made the semi-finals many times, I'll try and get an actual count tonight, but its far more than 2.
These sets were MEANT to be very liguid when we put them together. Meaning additions and subtractions are going to be part of the game. Its the only way to keep the set valid. Even then, as you saw with the Senior guys, or with Wehrli last year, there can be misses. If you look back at the last 15 years of HOF elections, how many of those guys would NOT have been on this set. These are guys who were elcted on their first try as a modern finalist, but had been candidates for quite awhile. Guys like Elvin Bethea, Joe DeLam. But for the most part, a guy like Wehrli would have been, if (2) was our number for auto add...
Lastly, our FIRST and most prefered way to add guys is via majority vote, because that is what PSA is going to send out looking for if someone makes a request. But for those guys who don;t get the popular vote here, yet deserve to be on the list because the HOF voters value them higher than we do, there should be a way of doing that.
We could also run a poll here to see if anyone wants a player deleted or removed. I can't see an argument for removing anyone with the exception of At-water. I voted for his inclusion, and like Shag, i don't get what's holding him back with the voters. When he retired i thought he would be a first or 2nd ballot guy. How long do we watch a guy not even make the semi-finals before we decide to remove him? 10 years? never? To me, that makes the set rather invalid and goes against the idea of the set in general. A player could always be re-added if/when he ever made the finals a couple of times..
Just my opinion of course, Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
And they will keep getting cheaper as the POP keeps rising..Pop #4 is at PSA right now in one of my recent submissions...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I have a good repore with Cosetta and Gayle, we won't have issues making changes. That being said, I'm not advocating taking At-Water off after 4 tries. Just wondering what everyone thinks would be a sufficient time frame before removal. I'm also not saying Anderson should be added. Just that it would seem he would be more deserving based on the HOF voters than At-water.
Also, we have to separate Finals from Semi-finals. The finals are the final 15. The semi's are the final 25. At-water hasn't made the SEMI-finals. I am going to go back and look through what records I have of semi-finals votes through the years and try to put together a spreadsheet. They keep official records of the final 15, but not the semi-finals. Anderson has made the semi-finals many times, I'll try and get an actual count tonight, but its far more than 2.
These sets were MEANT to be very liguid when we put them together. Meaning additions and subtractions are going to be part of the game. Its the only way to keep the set valid. Even then, as you saw with the Senior guys, or with Wehrli last year, there can be misses. If you look back at the last 15 years of HOF elections, how many of those guys would NOT have been on this set. These are guys who were elcted on their first try as a modern finalist, but had been candidates for quite awhile. Guys like Elvin Bethea, Joe DeLam. But for the most part, a guy like Wehrli would have been, if (2) was our number for auto add...
Lastly, our FIRST and most prefered way to add guys is via majority vote, because that is what PSA is going to send out looking for if someone makes a request. But for those guys who don;t get the popular vote here, yet deserve to be on the list because the HOF voters value them higher than we do, there should be a way of doing that.
We could also run a poll here to see if anyone wants a player deleted or removed. I can't see an argument for removing anyone with the exception of At-water. I voted for his inclusion, and like Shag, i don't get what's holding him back with the voters. When he retired i thought he would be a first or 2nd ballot guy. How long do we watch a guy not even make the semi-finals before we decide to remove him? 10 years? never? To me, that makes the set rather invalid and goes against the idea of the set in general. A player could always be re-added if/when he ever made the finals a couple of times..
Just my opinion of course, Jason >>
Jason,
Sorry I didnt catch the fact that you send finalists for Anderson and Stabler. That makes a difference vs only semis. My appologies.
Its interesting that you would like such a fluid set. I always had the impression that you werent much for changes to key card sets, other than additions that met a certain defined criteria.
Jay
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
These are the first sets put together under that guise. When I submitted them to Cosetta I let her know what the purpose, direction and motivation was for the set. It was truly put together by all of us in this thread.
I'm for all additions to other sets as well so long as they ,like you say, meet the defined criteria. I've voted YES to many recent additions..Charley Taylor and T.O to the WR set..To Brady to the QB set, Fred Taylor to the RB set...Typically if/when I have issues, is when cards are attempted to additions that do NOT fit what I wish were defined criteria. Unfortunately, PSA won't give much definition, but so far we (Football HOF and Key card collectors) have been unscathed by many of the issues that are currently plaguing the Player set.
I, as well as most others here, will continue to fight the good fight and keep the HOF and Key card sets sensible. I think that is the #1 reason that the HOF Rookie Players set is currently the most collected football set on the Registry. You can look at the thread count of this thread and also see that we are all very passionate about the set. Makes collecting it worth the price of admission!
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
PSA 9 Lenny Moore rc too. 3+ days left and it's at $1025. Wonder where that one will finish.
I know I've been quiet on here for a while, but I've added a few cards to my HOF set. Added a Pihos PSA 5, Donovan PSA 6 and a Matson PSA 5. The good fight still continues. 94.15% complete. Slowly working on upgrades too but would LOVE to finish this set off first.
I see in the top 20, there are 11 sets updated recently! It was pretty quiet there for a while. I see Jon even added a PSA 9 Raymond Berry. WOW!
Ok, back with some stats and clarification. The Class of 2004 election were the first in which the HOF used a semifinal list of 25 prior to going to 15 finalist. Before 2004, they choose the 15 finalists directly from the nominee list.
I have compiled a spread sheet of all semifinalist from 2004-2008, thats 5 years of data. Here are the still not elected but eligible modern players listed in alphabetical order. Following the name is the number of times they were chosen as a semifinalist and then the number of times they were eligible to be a semifinalist in those 5 years. So if the numbers are the same, they have been a semifinalist every year they've been eligible. If the numbers are different, they were left off the semifinal list somewhere along the line.
Cliff Branch-1-5 Cris Carter-1-1 Terrell Davis-2-2 Dermontti Dawson-3-3 Fred Dean-4-5 Richard Dent-5-5 Chris Doleman-1-4 Randy Gradishar-5-5 Darrell Green-1-1 Kevin Greene-2-4 Russ Grimm-5-5 Ray Guy-5-5 Charles Haley-3-4 Lester Hayes-5-5 Rickey Jackson-1-5 Joe Jacoby-2-5 Cortez Kennedy-1-3 Bob Kuechenberg-5-5 Randall McDaniel-2-2 Art Monk-5-5 Andre Reed-3-3 Donnie Shell-1-5 Ken Stabler-5-5 Steve Tasker-2-5 Derrick Thomas-4-4 Andre Tippett-2-5 Gary Zimmerman-5-5
Based on this, here are the strongest candidates (according to the HOF voters), who have made the top 25 every year eligible: Cris Carter Terrell Davis Dermontti Dawson Richard Dent Randy Gradishar Darrell Green Russ Grimm Ray Guy Lester Hayes Bob Kuechenberg Randall McDaniel Art Monk Andre Reed Ken Stabler Derrick Thomas Gary Zimmerman
Only guys on THIS list, who aren't on OUR list are Randy Gradishar and Ken Stabler. I would vote YES for each to be added to the modern set. This is Gradishar's last chance, so if we did so, he would immediately move over to the senior set if not elected. Stabler's last chance is next year (2009)..
Guys on our set not listed here?
Only 2, as mentioned before: Steve At-water-0-4 LeRoy Butler-0-2
Ken Anderson is also absent, as he hasn't been even a semi-finalist in the last 5 years, so I don't think he would be worthy of addition..My thinking is we should use the semi-final list as a disqualifier rather than the final 15. This gives a little more wiggle room, as it is fairly tough to crack the final 15, but for "likely to definite" candidates, making the semifinal list once every 5 years should be a given..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I know there have been many deserving guys, but I'm not sure what else a safety needs to do to get elected and how Atw ater hasn't even got a sniff yet.
My five would be:
Cris Carter Darrell Green Ken Stabler Derrick Thomas Richard Dent
<< <i>Just a heads up...Gayle will be sending out a poll shortly about the Tomlinson and Dunn additions to the All-Time Rushers set. Based on cards that are already included in the Future HOF'ers and All-Time Chargers and Buccaneers sets, the 2001 Topps Chrome LT and 1997 SP Dunn are the cards likely to be chosen.
It seems as if voting on cards that have already been voted into others sets, and more or less already established as key rookie cards, is a new initiative from PSA. They may be creating more work for themselves, but I guess it's all in the interest of ensuring that the correct card is chosen, which is absolutely fine with me.
As for my QBs:
1. Montana 2. Unitas 3. Manning 4. Marino 5. Graham 6. Elway 7. Tarkenton 8. Baugh 9. Favre (Too many picks and boneheaded plays over the years cancel out some of the greatness) 10. Jurgensen 11. Brady (Obviously can move up much higher) 12. Fouts 13. Staubach >>
A day late, I like Shag's list. If I were to expand on this to make it 15 QBs, I would just add Bart Starr (5 NFL championships, second highest rated passer in the NFL history in the playoffs where it really counts), and also add Steve Young who I think is always overlooked. I would change the order of the QB's a little, but this is my top 15 also.
Doh! Every time I wrote that list I do it fast and forget a couple of guys. You're right, Starr and Young are both definitely top 15.
I was just looking through the hammer prices in Goodwin's auction. $38,561 for the Bednarik 8. Wow!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Considering the stiff competition he'll be facing in his first year of eligibility, I doubt Randle will make it on the first try. Smith, Woodson and Sharpe are all no brainers though.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Looking at the 1st year eligible list for 2009, there could conceivably be 4 first ballot HOFers.
Bruce Smith DE 2009 Rod Woodson CB 2009 Shannon Sharpe TE 2009 John Randle DT 2009
Has there ever been 4 first ballot HOFers in the same year? That doesn't bode well for the modern candidates not elected in 2008....
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg, good point, and no there hasn't. 2009 won't even be the toughest upcoming year. Look at 2011:
Deion Sanders Willie Roaf Marshall Faulk Curtis Martin Jerome Bettis
Next year, I think Woodson and Bruce Smith are the only guarantees. I'd give Sharpe about a 90% chance at first ballot and Randle about 60%.
In 2010, we will have Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith and Tim Brown...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The NFL HOF RC set, as long as I have collected it, still never ceases to amaze...Before this past Monday, I had added/upgraded exactly ONE card on my set since August..Thats it...Just wasn't anything out there I needed and could afford.
Since Monday, I've upgraded 5 cards, total cost of over 5K...lol...Crazy how it can be like that sometimes...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
Doc
Both of these guys lit it up when they had nothing for a running game. Marino I think had one thousand yard rusher. Favre won MVP's with Edgar Bennett averaging 3.6 yds a carry.
1- Unitas
2- Montana
3- Graham
4- Manning
5- Favre
6- Marino
7- Baugh
8- Elway
9- Staubach
10- Brady
Brady has moved up to my top 10 now, but he needs alot more years like this one to break the top 5...Favre has also moved past Marino in my eyes. Adding this year (maybe his best ever) to his long list of MVPs and records that he keeps breaking gets him to #5. The INTs are a still a big negative for him, but what he's doing at his age, plus never missing a game is just amazing. No one else on this list did it as well when they were "over the hill" age wise...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
As for the 3 mentioned above:
Favre is above Marino due to the Superbowl. Their numbers are similar. Neither has had a running game.
I would put Elway ahead of Marino due to the fact the Marino was only able to carry the Dolphins on his back to one Superbowl and Elway did it twice over my beloved Browns. It those years it was all Elway in Denver. He then found a running game and got 2 Superbowls.
I'm sorry but championship mean a lot when it comes to the team leader role of quarterback.
<< <i>Its interesting to see that when Manning had a game where is group of Wr's was depleted he had 6 INTS....hmmm...kinda Favre like when he only had Driver a few years ago!! Now Favre has a group that catches and makes plays and all of a sudden the INT's fall and TD's rise. All top Qb's will force a ball to make a play to win a game. If they didnt they would be in the group of Qb's bringing up the middle of the pack. >>
I don't think thats a good argument for comparing QBs. Now obviously a top flight WR combined with a top flight QB is typically going to bring top flight results. Same can be said of a QB that plays for a good coach/winning team or for one with a good running game or with a good defense supporting him.
If you want to factor in all of these things then don't even bother trying to rank the guys.
Just for the heck of it, I wanted to compare Brady vs. Favre. Brady has played in 107 career games, which is about where Favre was after the 1998 season (113 games). Brady has, not even arguably, had MUCH WORSE WRs to throw to over his first 107 games than Favre did. Favre had Sterling Sharpe and Antonio Freeman during those years, both made the Pro Bowl at different times. Brady had who? Troy Brown? Now this year he finally has Moss and the others.
Anyway, comparing each players TD to INT ratio over the same (approx) amount of games--
Brady throws a TD in 5.38% of his attempts, and 2.37% INTs.
Favre throw a TD in 5.68% of his attempts, and 3.14% INTs.
I do agree that the "great" QBs will typically take more risks and receive higher rewards. Favre was/is a gunslinger no doubt. He's got the numbers to prove it, and is why I rank him #5 on my all-time list. I don't think there's any debating (in my eyes) of putting Favre over Unitas, Montana or Otto Graham. Anyone who believes that simply didn;t watch enough of those 3 to make the comparison. I do think an argument could be made Peyton vs. Favre. I rank Peyton slightly higher strictly by what I have seen him do on the field. His playcalling abilities, plus when he makes those "tight" throws, he somehow does it without looking careless. Don't get me wrong, this isn't his best season and he's made some mistakes. I'm sure it does have alot to do with losing Harrison, the guy he is most comfortable throwing to. But Favre, throughout his career has been careless with ALOT of his tight throws. Really trying to make passes that he wouldn't have completed if Jerry Rice, Randy Moss and Marvin Harrison were all his WRs.
For any Packers fan, who's probably watched every pass Favre has ever thrown, you have to admit he's had a penchant for basically "throwing blind" at times. But with Favre, that came with the package.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
It seems as if voting on cards that have already been voted into others sets, and more or less already established as key rookie cards, is a new initiative from PSA. They may be creating more work for themselves, but I guess it's all in the interest of ensuring that the correct card is chosen, which is absolutely fine with me.
As for my QBs:
1. Montana
2. Unitas
3. Manning
4. Marino
5. Graham
6. Elway
7. Tarkenton
8. Baugh
9. Favre (Too many picks and boneheaded plays over the years cancel out some of the greatness)
10. Jurgensen
11. Brady (Obviously can move up much higher)
12. Fouts
13. Staubach
Should be interesting as always to see who does and does not make the first cut.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Manning has had Harrison with him for all but a handfull of his games (maybe 8 at most). When you have a two players like of a high level, that have played together for that long that makes a huge difference. Favre had Sharpe from 92 to the end of the 94 regular season. Freeman didnt play much at WR until 96 (rookie in 95) and then left in either 2000 or 02. Brooks was the main man in 95-96 until he hurt his leg in mid 96 and missed the end of the season and playoffs. Driver is actually the WR Favre has had the longest.
Sharpe went to 3 probowls with Favre, Freeman 1, Brooks 0, Driver 2 and Walker 1. so 7 probowls between 5 main wrs in his career.
Harrison has gone to 8 probowls and reggie wayne has gone to 1. thats 9 probowls between 2 wrs.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Ken Anderson QB
Steve At-water S
Tony Boselli T
Cris Carter WR
Terrell Davis RB
Dermontti Dawson C
Richard Dent DE
Chris Doleman DE/LB
Randy Gradishar LB
Darrell Green CB
Kevin Greene LB
Russ Grimm G
Ray Guy P
Charles Haley DE/LB
Lester Hayes CB
Bob Kuechenberg G
Randall McDaniel G
Art Monk WR
Andre Reed WR
Ed Sabol NFL Films
Ken Stabler QB
Paul Tagliabue Commissioner
Derrick Thomas LB
Andre Tippett LB
Gary Zimmerman T
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
it will be interesting to see who makes it out. there are plenty of contenders on the list thats for sure.
jay
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Cris Carter, WR – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins
Terrell Davis, RB – 1995-2001 Denver Broncos
Dermontti Dawson, C – 1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers
Fred Dean, DE – 1975-1981 San Diego Chargers, 1981-85 San Francisco 49ers
Richard Dent, DE – 1983-1993, 1995 Chicago Bears, 1994 San Francisco 49ers, 1996 Indianapolis Colts, 1997 Philadelphia Eagles
Randy Gradishar, LB – 1974-1983 Denver Broncos
Darrell Green, CB – 1983-2002 Washington Redskins
Kevin Greene, LB/DE – 1985-1992 Los Angeles Rams, 1993-95 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996, 1998-99 Carolina Panthers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers
Russ Grimm, G – 1981-1991 Washington Redskins
Ray Guy, P – 1973-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
Charles Haley, DE/LB – 1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys
Lester Hayes, CB – 1977-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
Rickey Jackson, LB – 1981-1993 New Orleans Saints, 1994-95 San Francisco 49ers
Joe Jacoby, T – 1981-1993 Washington Redskins
Cortez Kennedy, DT – 1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks
Bob Kuechenberg, G – 1970-1984 Miami Dolphins
Randall McDaniel, G – 1988-1999 Minnesota Vikings, 2000-01 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Art Monk, WR – 1980-1993 Washington Redskins, 1994 New York Jets, 1995 Philadelphia Eagles
Andre Reed, WR –1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins
Ken Stabler, QB – 1970-79 Oakland Raiders, 1980-81 Houston Oilers, 1982-84 New Orleans Saints
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner – 1989-2006 National Football League
Steve Tasker, Special Teams/WR – 1985-1986 Houston Oilers, 1986-1997 Buffalo Bills
Derrick Thomas, LB – 1989-1999 Kansas City Chiefs
Andre Tippett, LB – 1982-1993 New England Patriots
George Young, GM/Administrator – 1968-1974 Baltimore Colts, 1975-78 Miami Dolphins, 1979-1997 New York Giants, 1998-2001 National Football League
Gary Zimmerman, T – 1986-1992 Minnesota Vikings, 1993-97 Denver Broncos
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
sorry to burst your bubble.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
I thought for sure Jay was going to scarf that up to go with his St. Clari 9. They would have made great book ends
Cris Carter
Darrell Green
Russ Grimm
Cortez Kennedy
Paul Tagliabue
Derrick Thomas
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>I predict 6 modern guys make it:
Cris Carter
Darrell Green
Russ Grimm
Cortez Kennedy
Paul Tagliabue
Derrick Thomas
Nick >>
Nick, Maximum of 5 modern candidates can be elected in any given year...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Who are your top 5 candidates this year?
Mine are:
Cris Carter
Darrell Green
Paul Tagliabue or George Young
Bob Kuechenberg, and
Derrick Thomas
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Cris Carter, WR – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins
Darrell Green, CB – 1983-2002 Washington Redskins
Ray Guy, P – 1973-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
Art Monk, WR – 1980-1993 Washington Redskins, 1994 New York Jets, 1995 Philadelphia Eagles
Derrick Thomas, LB – 1989-1999 Kansas City Chiefs
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Does anyone have a list of how many times this year's semifinalists (players) have reached the semis? I know Kennedy, Jackson, Green and Carter are the only first-timers.
Tagliabue and D. Thomas are the guys on the bubble. I could easily see Art Monk and a wildcard/out of nowhere guy replacing those 2.
I would put money on the fact that only ONE of the 2 Seniors will go in this year...I'm not sure which one though, Goldberg has to be the weakest modern or senior candidate I ever remember seeing. Emmitt Thomas is going to be compared with all the other HOF DBs from that era and I think he also comes up short. I mean Wehrli was a slider who barely got in, and I would take Wehrli over Thomas no question. I mean do we really put in the 13th best DB from the late 60's early 70's? Its crazy...I hope both get nixed, in my opinion neither is HOF caliber...It just dilutes the field when guys this borderline are elected...The senior committee who selected them should be fired on the spot.
Here's a list of DBs already in the HOF who played during Emmitt Thomas' career (66-78)...
Herb Adderley
Lem Barney
Mel Blount
Willie Brown
Mike Haynes
Ken Houston
Jimmy Johnson
Paul Krause
Mel Renfro
Roger Wehrli
Larry Wilson
Willie Wood
I mean jeez, no wonder QBs threw so many INTs during the 70's...lol...
I won't even get into Goldberg. Honestly don't know much about him because well..He wasn't anything more than a slightly above average player from the 40's...8 season, 77 career games..Was never considered "one of the best" even during his playing days..Not once was he 1st team All-Pro/All-NFL...I still don't get this selection...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Doc
Joe
Removal of players....On the Future Modern HOF list, we chose guys who were "likely or definite" to become future HOFers...My question is, how many years do we want to wait for a guy to be at LEAST a finalist before requesting his removal from the set? Steve At-water is in his 4th year of eligibility and he has yet to be a finalist. In fact, he hasn't even made the top 25 SEMI-finals yet in his 4 years. I think if we hit 5 years without the guy being at least a finalist, we should consider removing him.
The only other player on our future HOF- Modern set that has never made the semi-finals or finals in Leroy Butler. This is his 2nd year of eligibility.
So do you guys think if At-water doesn't make the finals next year, we request his removal?
The other is new additions. There are currently only 2 modern candidate players who have been a finalist more than once yet who are not in our set:
Ken Stabler- 3 times (last in 2003)
Ken Anderson- 2 times (last in 1998)
As you can see Stabler is again a semi-finalist, and next year (2009) will be his final year as a modern candidate. The question this brings up is, how many times does a guy need to make the top 15 finalists before we agree that he is a likely and/or definite HOF player? On the other side, there are guys like Jerry Kramer who was a Finalist 10 times and still didn't get in, so nothing is guaranteed...Obviously, one shot as a finalist maybe just that, a guy getting one good luck. But when the same guy goes up for debate again and again, it at least says there are alot of voters who think they are HOF worthy.
Just seems strange looking at the set from the outside point of view and seeing guys like At-water on it, whos never even been a semi-finalist while guys like Stabler are NOT on it, yet he has been a finalist 3 times and a semifinalist probably 8-10 times. Including this year and last year OVER At-water.
Any ideas what we should or shouldn't do to correct this inconsistency?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i><< I predict 6 modern guys make it:
Cris Carter
Darrell Green
Russ Grimm
Cortez Kennedy
Paul Tagliabue
Derrick Thomas
Nick >>
Nick, Maximum of 5 modern candidates can be elected in any given year...
Jason
>>
I know they changed it this year so that 4 to 7 are elected. So they can only go to 7 if they pick 2 seniors?
I don't see either of these seniors making it. Goldberg is a joke and Thomas is less impressive than Hayes, who's not going to be elected.
If they can only take 5 modern guys, I leave Kennedy off my earlier list.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
If we want to make it cut and dry, which might not be a bad thing as it will remove all subjectivity, maybe players should automatically be added to the future HOF set once they reach a certain number of times in the semis. Maybe 3?
<< <i>With 8 Pro Bowls in 11 years in the NFL, and a well-earned reputation as one of the game's most feared DBs, I really question why Steve At-Water has received so little HOF consideration thus far. And wasn't he there for both Super Bowl victories? A true head-scratcher. Do the voters really hate the Broncos THAT much??? I would wait on removing him from the set for at least a few more years. As for new additions, I don't have strong feelings either way. While I don't think Stabler was a HOF QB, he's garnered enough interest from the voters that many of them obviously feel differently.
If we want to make it cut and dry, which might not be a bad thing as it will remove all subjectivity, maybe players should automatically be added to the future HOF set once they reach a certain number of times in the semis. Maybe 3? >>
I don't think making the semi's is enough..At least be a finalist, and I would prefer they made the finals more than once. Now the guys this really applies to are the ones that we here, as a group, didn't think were likely/definite HOFers. The guys that we all agree uopn, or at least majority vote agrees on will be added or requested to be added regardless. This is mostly meant for guys like Stabler or say Tippett or Dean if either of them makes the finals again this year for a 2nd time. I'd REALLY like it to be cut and dry so there is no guessing.
For Stabler in particular, I think he will be an EASY addition to the Senior HOF list after next year, much like Gradishar or Kuechenberg this year if they do not get in. I see no reason not to add him to the Modern list, but obviously would want the majority to feel the same before requesting an add.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Was looking over the HOF semi-finalists again, and had a couple of thoughts. Figured I would get some opinions on.
Removal of players....On the Future Modern HOF list, we chose guys who were "likely or definite" to become future HOFers...My question is, how many years do we want to wait for a guy to be at LEAST a finalist before requesting his removal from the set? Steve At-water is in his 4th year of eligibility and he has yet to be a finalist. In fact, he hasn't even made the top 25 SEMI-finals yet in his 4 years. I think if we hit 5 years without the guy being at least a finalist, we should consider removing him.
The only other player on our future HOF- Modern set that has never made the semi-finals or finals in Leroy Butler. This is his 2nd year of eligibility.
So do you guys think if At-water doesn't make the finals next year, we request his removal?
The other is new additions. There are currently only 2 modern candidate players who have been a finalist more than once yet who are not in our set:
Ken Stabler- 3 times (last in 2003)
Ken Anderson- 2 times (last in 1998)
As you can see Stabler is again a semi-finalist, and next year (2009) will be his final year as a modern candidate. The question this brings up is, how many times does a guy need to make the top 15 finalists before we agree that he is a likely and/or definite HOF player? On the other side, there are guys like Jerry Kramer who was a Finalist 10 times and still didn't get in, so nothing is guaranteed...Obviously, one shot as a finalist maybe just that, a guy getting one good luck. But when the same guy goes up for debate again and again, it at least says there are alot of voters who think they are HOF worthy.
Just seems strange looking at the set from the outside point of view and seeing guys like At-water on it, whos never even been a semi-finalist while guys like Stabler are NOT on it, yet he has been a finalist 3 times and a semifinalist probably 8-10 times. Including this year and last year OVER At-water.
Any ideas what we should or shouldn't do to correct this inconsistency?
Jason >>
I think your examples of Stabler and Anderson suggest a reason to keep At-water on the list. How long have Anderson and Stabler been eligble? Yet only a few times as a finalist. You want to give up on someone only on the 4th time of eligiblity that hasnt made the list, when in the last few years there have been many first time inductees that could have been just keeping him off. You may be prevy to more info on the vote totals that I am, so maybe you have more data to suggest his removal. Yet it took Anderson 6-7 years to make it the first time to the semis!!! Right? Yet 4 years is enough for others to cut them off???
Over the last 4 years we have had Aikman, Marino, Moon, Elway, Young, Sanders, White, Matthews, and maybe a few more this years. The last couple of years might have made it hard for some others to make the cut into the 25.
Sounds like we really need some more defined rules has to how people get in/out of this set then. The first list was done as vote. I think if we keep asking for changes they might not like this idea much anymore. They have a hard enough time adding new sets and adding cards to basic and master sets.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Also, we have to separate Finals from Semi-finals. The finals are the final 15. The semi's are the final 25. At-water hasn't made the SEMI-finals. I am going to go back and look through what records I have of semi-finals votes through the years and try to put together a spreadsheet. They keep official records of the final 15, but not the semi-finals. Anderson has made the semi-finals many times, I'll try and get an actual count tonight, but its far more than 2.
These sets were MEANT to be very liguid when we put them together. Meaning additions and subtractions are going to be part of the game. Its the only way to keep the set valid. Even then, as you saw with the Senior guys, or with Wehrli last year, there can be misses. If you look back at the last 15 years of HOF elections, how many of those guys would NOT have been on this set. These are guys who were elcted on their first try as a modern finalist, but had been candidates for quite awhile. Guys like Elvin Bethea, Joe DeLam. But for the most part, a guy like Wehrli would have been, if (2) was our number for auto add...
Lastly, our FIRST and most prefered way to add guys is via majority vote, because that is what PSA is going to send out looking for if someone makes a request. But for those guys who don;t get the popular vote here, yet deserve to be on the list because the HOF voters value them higher than we do, there should be a way of doing that.
We could also run a poll here to see if anyone wants a player deleted or removed. I can't see an argument for removing anyone with the exception of At-water. I voted for his inclusion, and like Shag, i don't get what's holding him back with the voters. When he retired i thought he would be a first or 2nd ballot guy. How long do we watch a guy not even make the semi-finals before we decide to remove him? 10 years? never? To me, that makes the set rather invalid and goes against the idea of the set in general. A player could always be re-added if/when he ever made the finals a couple of times..
Just my opinion of course,
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>PSA 10 Dwight Stephenson on EBAY boys >>
And they will keep getting cheaper as the POP keeps rising..Pop #4 is at PSA right now in one of my recent submissions...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I have a good repore with Cosetta and Gayle, we won't have issues making changes. That being said, I'm not advocating taking At-Water off after 4 tries. Just wondering what everyone thinks would be a sufficient time frame before removal. I'm also not saying Anderson should be added. Just that it would seem he would be more deserving based on the HOF voters than At-water.
Also, we have to separate Finals from Semi-finals. The finals are the final 15. The semi's are the final 25. At-water hasn't made the SEMI-finals. I am going to go back and look through what records I have of semi-finals votes through the years and try to put together a spreadsheet. They keep official records of the final 15, but not the semi-finals. Anderson has made the semi-finals many times, I'll try and get an actual count tonight, but its far more than 2.
These sets were MEANT to be very liguid when we put them together. Meaning additions and subtractions are going to be part of the game. Its the only way to keep the set valid. Even then, as you saw with the Senior guys, or with Wehrli last year, there can be misses. If you look back at the last 15 years of HOF elections, how many of those guys would NOT have been on this set. These are guys who were elcted on their first try as a modern finalist, but had been candidates for quite awhile. Guys like Elvin Bethea, Joe DeLam. But for the most part, a guy like Wehrli would have been, if (2) was our number for auto add...
Lastly, our FIRST and most prefered way to add guys is via majority vote, because that is what PSA is going to send out looking for if someone makes a request. But for those guys who don;t get the popular vote here, yet deserve to be on the list because the HOF voters value them higher than we do, there should be a way of doing that.
We could also run a poll here to see if anyone wants a player deleted or removed. I can't see an argument for removing anyone with the exception of At-water. I voted for his inclusion, and like Shag, i don't get what's holding him back with the voters. When he retired i thought he would be a first or 2nd ballot guy. How long do we watch a guy not even make the semi-finals before we decide to remove him? 10 years? never? To me, that makes the set rather invalid and goes against the idea of the set in general. A player could always be re-added if/when he ever made the finals a couple of times..
Just my opinion of course,
Jason >>
Jason,
Sorry I didnt catch the fact that you send finalists for Anderson and Stabler. That makes a difference vs only semis. My appologies.
Its interesting that you would like such a fluid set. I always had the impression that you werent much for changes to key card sets, other than additions that met a certain defined criteria.
Jay
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
I'm for all additions to other sets as well so long as they ,like you say, meet the defined criteria. I've voted YES to many recent additions..Charley Taylor and T.O to the WR set..To Brady to the QB set, Fred Taylor to the RB set...Typically if/when I have issues, is when cards are attempted to additions that do NOT fit what I wish were defined criteria. Unfortunately, PSA won't give much definition, but so far we (Football HOF and Key card collectors) have been unscathed by many of the issues that are currently plaguing the Player set.
I, as well as most others here, will continue to fight the good fight and keep the HOF and Key card sets sensible. I think that is the #1 reason that the HOF Rookie Players set is currently the most collected football set on the Registry. You can look at the thread count of this thread and also see that we are all very passionate about the set. Makes collecting it worth the price of admission!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>PSA 10 Dwight Stephenson on EBAY boys >>
PSA 9 Lenny Moore rc too. 3+ days left and it's at $1025. Wonder where that one will finish.
I know I've been quiet on here for a while, but I've added a few cards to my HOF set. Added a Pihos PSA 5, Donovan PSA 6 and a Matson PSA 5. The good fight still continues.
I see in the top 20, there are 11 sets updated recently! It was pretty quiet there for a while. I see Jon even added a PSA 9 Raymond Berry. WOW!
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
I have compiled a spread sheet of all semifinalist from 2004-2008, thats 5 years of data. Here are the still not elected but eligible modern players listed in alphabetical order. Following the name is the number of times they were chosen as a semifinalist and then the number of times they were eligible to be a semifinalist in those 5 years. So if the numbers are the same, they have been a semifinalist every year they've been eligible. If the numbers are different, they were left off the semifinal list somewhere along the line.
Cliff Branch-1-5
Cris Carter-1-1
Terrell Davis-2-2
Dermontti Dawson-3-3
Fred Dean-4-5
Richard Dent-5-5
Chris Doleman-1-4
Randy Gradishar-5-5
Darrell Green-1-1
Kevin Greene-2-4
Russ Grimm-5-5
Ray Guy-5-5
Charles Haley-3-4
Lester Hayes-5-5
Rickey Jackson-1-5
Joe Jacoby-2-5
Cortez Kennedy-1-3
Bob Kuechenberg-5-5
Randall McDaniel-2-2
Art Monk-5-5
Andre Reed-3-3
Donnie Shell-1-5
Ken Stabler-5-5
Steve Tasker-2-5
Derrick Thomas-4-4
Andre Tippett-2-5
Gary Zimmerman-5-5
Based on this, here are the strongest candidates (according to the HOF voters), who have made the top 25 every year eligible:
Cris Carter
Terrell Davis
Dermontti Dawson
Richard Dent
Randy Gradishar
Darrell Green
Russ Grimm
Ray Guy
Lester Hayes
Bob Kuechenberg
Randall McDaniel
Art Monk
Andre Reed
Ken Stabler
Derrick Thomas
Gary Zimmerman
Only guys on THIS list, who aren't on OUR list are Randy Gradishar and Ken Stabler. I would vote YES for each to be added to the modern set. This is Gradishar's last chance, so if we did so, he would immediately move over to the senior set if not elected. Stabler's last chance is next year (2009)..
Guys on our set not listed here?
Only 2, as mentioned before:
Steve At-water-0-4
LeRoy Butler-0-2
Ken Anderson is also absent, as he hasn't been even a semi-finalist in the last 5 years, so I don't think he would be worthy of addition..My thinking is we should use the semi-final list as a disqualifier rather than the final 15. This gives a little more wiggle room, as it is fairly tough to crack the final 15, but for "likely to definite" candidates, making the semifinal list once every 5 years should be a given..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My five would be:
Cris Carter
Darrell Green
Ken Stabler
Derrick Thomas
Richard Dent
<< <i>Just a heads up...Gayle will be sending out a poll shortly about the Tomlinson and Dunn additions to the All-Time Rushers set. Based on cards that are already included in the Future HOF'ers and All-Time Chargers and Buccaneers sets, the 2001 Topps Chrome LT and 1997 SP Dunn are the cards likely to be chosen.
It seems as if voting on cards that have already been voted into others sets, and more or less already established as key rookie cards, is a new initiative from PSA. They may be creating more work for themselves, but I guess it's all in the interest of ensuring that the correct card is chosen, which is absolutely fine with me.
As for my QBs:
1. Montana
2. Unitas
3. Manning
4. Marino
5. Graham
6. Elway
7. Tarkenton
8. Baugh
9. Favre (Too many picks and boneheaded plays over the years cancel out some of the greatness)
10. Jurgensen
11. Brady (Obviously can move up much higher)
12. Fouts
13. Staubach >>
A day late, I like Shag's list. If I were to expand on this to make it 15 QBs, I would just add Bart Starr (5 NFL championships, second highest rated passer in the NFL history in the playoffs where it really counts), and also add Steve Young who I think is always overlooked. I would change the order of the QB's a little, but this is my top 15 also.
I was just looking through the hammer prices in Goodwin's auction. $38,561 for the Bednarik 8. Wow!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Looking at the 1st year eligible list for 2009, there could conceivably be 4 first ballot HOFers.
Bruce Smith DE 2009
Rod Woodson CB 2009
Shannon Sharpe TE 2009
John Randle DT 2009
Has there ever been 4 first ballot HOFers in the same year? That doesn't bode well for the modern candidates not elected in 2008....
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>All,
Looking at the 1st year eligible list for 2009, there could conceivably be 4 first ballot HOFers.
Bruce Smith DE 2009
Rod Woodson CB 2009
Shannon Sharpe TE 2009
John Randle DT 2009
Has there ever been 4 first ballot HOFers in the same year? That doesn't bode well for the modern candidates not elected in 2008....
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg, good point, and no there hasn't. 2009 won't even be the toughest upcoming year. Look at 2011:
Deion Sanders
Willie Roaf
Marshall Faulk
Curtis Martin
Jerome Bettis
Next year, I think Woodson and Bruce Smith are the only guarantees. I'd give Sharpe about a 90% chance at first ballot and Randle about 60%.
In 2010, we will have Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith and Tim Brown...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Since Monday, I've upgraded 5 cards, total cost of over 5K...lol...Crazy how it can be like that sometimes...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!