<< <i>At this point in Thomas' career he has played the same number of seasons as Boselli (though Boselli appeared in fewer games due to injury). While both were equally dominant LT's I think Thomas has a slight edge and better chance than Boselli b/c he has 2 more Pro Bowls and 1 more All Pro.
I might be in the minority but I believe Young had a career that was worthy of induction to the HOF. He lacks the career accolades and awards but he was a force on the DL. Young excelled at stopping the run and generating pressure on the QB. I also think it can be argued that he was a better all around player than Sapp or Randle. >>
I agree on Thomas/Boselli....And Boselli has been eligible for a few years now and hasn't made the top 25.
Same with Young, he isn't close to HOF induction and has been eligible. Tough to say he was a better "all-around" player as so many factors go into that. Why was he better? In the defense he played in, did he more often do what was asked of him? Are you saying Sapp and Randle didn't execute to perfection what was asked of them in the defensive schemes they played in?
I think it's important to remember this is a subjective process. Even HOF voters who have followed the ins and outs of every play in a guys career don't always agree on if a guy is HOF worthy. I usually try and err on the side of calling guys HOFers when there isn't much debate on their worthiness. I mean, if i say Derrick Brooks is a HOFer, there won't be too many disagreeing..When you have a player where 50% or less people think he is HOF caliber, then he's already borderline, so why rush to annoint them. Put in all the players with little or no debate FIRST....Only 5 slots a year for the modern guys...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I think you make an excellent point in regards to the type of systems Randle and Sapp played in. Both played in systems where the DL played the run on the way to the QB and the goal was to put pressure on the passing game. I do think its fair to wonder if Young could of posted better sack numbers if he played in a Tampa 2 style defense.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>I think you make an excellent point in regards to the type of systems Randle and Sapp played in. Both played in systems where the DL played the run on the way to the QB and the goal was to put pressure on the passing game. I do think its fair to wonder if Young could of posted better sack numbers if he played in a Tampa 2 style defense. >>
Young was always an excellent disrupter on the inside and likely would have been excellent in as a 2 gap DT. Somewhat the diff between him and Justin Smith. Smith really is moreso built to be a rush DE but was a little too big and a little too slow to be great at it. I don't think he would have done well at all as in inside DT. He's great at holding the point of attack and stopping the run. Just good/slightly above average as disrupter. Young had the strength and quickness very similar to Sapp and likely would have had similar numbers and accolades had he played for Tampa those years.
Just goes to show how many variables go into trying to determine if a guy is worthy of the HOF. Numbers can be deceptive in many cases and sometimes great players get overlooked simply because they played for a crappy team. It's part of what makes the debates interesting and makes the HOF such an exclusive place. Planets have to align for everything to come together for a player. Really do.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I think you make an excellent point in regards to the type of systems Randle and Sapp played in. Both played in systems where the DL played the run on the way to the QB and the goal was to put pressure on the passing game. I do think its fair to wonder if Young could of posted better sack numbers if he played in a Tampa 2 style defense. >>
Young was always an excellent disrupter on the inside and likely would have been excellent in as a 2 gap DT. Somewhat the diff between him and Justin Smith. Smith really is moreso built to be a rush DE but was a little too big and a little too slow to be great at it. I don't think he would have done well at all as in inside DT. He's great at holding the point of attack and stopping the run. Just good/slightly above average as disrupter. Young had the strength and quickness very similar to Sapp and likely would have had similar numbers and accolades had he played for Tampa those years.
Just goes to show how many variables go into trying to determine if a guy is worthy of the HOF. Numbers can be deceptive in many cases and sometimes great players get overlooked simply because they played for a crappy team. It's part of what makes the debates interesting and makes the HOF such an exclusive place. Planets have to align for everything to come together for a player. Really do. >>
I see Smith a little differently, I have always viewed him as a strong side end who the Bengals tried to use on the left side as a pass rusher. I never really understood why they had him RDE when he was always on the big side and not a player who could consistently turn the corner. Since he arrived in San Francisco they have allowed him to play to his strengths were he can rush the interior of the OL and use his explosiveness and power to put pressure on the QB. He's not a guy who can shoot gaps but he can jam nearly any guard, tackle, or center back into the QB pretty consistently.
I do agree with your statements on crappy teams and how they impact how a player was perceived. Just look at Corey Dillon.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
No I think we are in agreement on Smith. He wasn't and isn't cut out to be a 4-3 pass rusher. Also not cutout to play inside. It's somewhat the argument that keeps a lot of OG and S out of the HOF. Not good enough to be a tackle or a corner hence typically less valued position. I'll be one of the more shocke people on the planet if Justin Smith ever makes the top 25. I've watched him plenty. And he's a very good player but just not dominant enough to ever get the attention required to get votes for the HOF.
Corey Dillon, for me, was a good runner. I don't think playing for the Bengals is the reason he won't make the HOF. Ricky Watters played for a Super Bowl winning team, also accumulated big numbers yet also will never get a sniff for similar reasons. Talent alone isn't getting a guy votes for the HOF. Neither are stats alone. Both were selfish players and universally disliked by most if the guys doing the voting. You can't be a borderline HOF talent with borderline HOF numbers an have any chance when the voters mostly dislike you. This is going to make TO and Moss very very interesting cases when they come up in a few years. Did they do enough in the field and out up enough numbers to overcome the dislike most voters have for them? I bet neither goes in first ballot. Don't think Marvin Harrison does this year either. We can't forget that like pro bowl and all pro voting. It's voting! Which means it's partially a popularity contest. Disliked players need HUGE numbers or accolades. And adored players can get in with lesser numbers and accolades.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>No I think we are in agreement on Smith. He wasn't and isn't cut out to be a 4-3 pass rusher. Also not cutout to play inside. It's somewhat the argument that keeps a lot of OG and S out of the HOF. Not good enough to be a tackle or a corner hence typically less valued position. I'll be one of the more shocke people on the planet if Justin Smith ever makes the top 25. I've watched him plenty. And he's a very good player but just not dominant enough to ever get the attention required to get votes for the HOF.
Corey Dillon, for me, was a good runner. I don't think playing for the Bengals is the reason he won't make the HOF. Ricky Watters played for a Super Bowl winning team, also accumulated big numbers yet also will never get a sniff for similar reasons. Talent alone isn't getting a guy votes for the HOF. Neither are stats alone. Both were selfish players and universally disliked by most if the guys doing the voting. You can't be a borderline HOF talent with borderline HOF numbers an have any chance when the voters mostly dislike you. This is going to make TO and Moss very very interesting cases when they come up in a few years. Did they do enough in the field and out up enough numbers to overcome the dislike most voters have for them? I bet neither goes in first ballot. Don't think Marvin Harrison does this year either. We can't forget that like pro bowl and all pro voting. It's voting! Which means it's partially a popularity contest. Disliked players need HUGE numbers or accolades. And adored players can get in with lesser numbers and accolades. >>
During his time with the Bengals I think Smith would of been an excellent strong side end who played the run very well and produced 7-10 sacks a season if the RDE he played with was a good pass rusher. I also believe Smith has bulked up even further since joining the 49'ers and bet he's closer to 300 pounds now rather than his often listed weight of around 275 pounds so he might be able to hold up at DT now (compared to his days in the 4-3 system). I live on the East coast and have not seen a lot of Smith since he left the Bengals but when I have seen him play in recent years I have always been impressed with how dominant he is from the 3-4 End position. His ability to drive blockers backwards is jaw dropping at times.
I have seen those comments about Watters before and its a shame b/c he was a very talented player. Moss and Owens will be 2 interesting cases.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>The 15 finalists will be announced tonight at 9pm ET on the NFL Network >>
Morten Andersen the only surprise. Though he was more in the 20 range but like the addition. Also good to see Lynch move up the ranks. Hopefully can break the S freeze out in the next few years.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Derrick Brooks Charles Haley Walter Jones Andre Reed Michael Strahan [no senior nominees get elected]
Nick >>
I've got the same with the exception of Haley. I'm undecided in that 5th slot but at the moment I think it's either Bettis or a nonplayer, Dungy or Debartolo.
I think both seniors get in as well.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I think Strahan or Bettis could replace one of these guys. Maybe even Reed. Not sure any other player has much of a shot to get in this year.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Here is my broad brush on what I see at the moment.
LOCKS- Walter Jones, Derrick Brooks...Just don't see anything that would stop either of these players from becoming first ballot HOFers this year
NO CHANCE: Tim Brown- Will not get in over Harrison or Reed, and 3 WRs arent going in with one class. Kevin Greene- Won't get in as a pass rusher over Strahan or Haley... John Lynch- Glad to see him move to the top 15, but he's still at the back of the line of 15 Morten Andersen- Same as above
Leaves 9 players who are iffy, I will give my odds/ranks. I think one of these 2 will get in.......... Michael Strahan- 90%...Was shocked he wasn't first ballot, but the voters decided not to put 2 D-lineman in together. Won't stop Strahan this year..Only one slim possibility can. Charles Haley- 10%...Only thing that could bump Strahan this year is if the voters go with Haley instead. He's waited so much longer and has made the cut to the final 10 the past 2 years.
I think one of these 2 will also get in................ Andre Reed- 60%...With Carter finally breaking the logjam last year, will be interesting to see how Reed vs. Harrison is treated. Based on how the voters put Monk in before Carter, I think the same holds true and in this case go with the guy who's been waiting the longest. Marvin Harrison- 40%...Certainly could be Harrison over Reed as his numbers and accolades are simply better. He does have his detractors however, and while he is certain to make the HOF, is he a 1st ballot guy? That's the debate here. Now or later. For now, Im guessing later.
So 4 of the 5 slots now filled...Who gets the 5th slot is really up for grabs amongst the last 5 guys.
Jerome Bettis- 30%....Bettis is my favorite at the moment in this group. Reasoning is that of the other 4, you have 2 defensive players, 1 offensive lineman, and 1 skill player...I dont see a 3rd defensive player from the moderns, especially with Humphrey as a Senior. Also dont see a 2nd Offensive lineman. Bettis made the cut to the final 10 last year, which means he's near the top of the line of 15. Eddie DeBartolo- 25%....He's the leader between himself and Dungy I think. Would they put Dungy in first ballot? Maybe...With D Brooks? Maybe...But for now, betting no. Very possible they go with a non-player in the 5th spot as well. Tony Dungy- 25%...He's going to go in eventually, but 2 things are against him...1, He's still young..Will he go back to coaching or is he really retired for good..And 2, Harrison and Brooks are ahead of him from the same teams. Aeneas Williams- 15%...Made the cut to the final 10 the last 2 years...Only thing stopping him is that I dont see them putting 3 of 5 modern candidates as defensive players. Will Shields- 5%...Super Long shot, as the voters would have to put in 2 offensive lineman when you have such a large cross section of HOF worthy guys. AND he was a Guard (get little respect in HOF circles)...He's never made the cut to 10.
They are supposed to be putting camera's in the HOF meeting room this year. Something we talked about in this thread a few years back, and I'm stoked that the walls are finally coming down a bit. That being said, I'm guessing our footage won't be live and continuous and it will resemble the cameras they place in NFL War rooms during the draft...lol..Its a good first step though.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I know I am in the minority but I don't think Bettis belongs in the top 10 this year yet belongs sniffing the HOF.
The only reason (IMO) he is considered is he ground out his career at the end just to pass Dorsett and Dickerson. The just force ran him into the stat book. Out off all the RB's who have ran for 10,000 yards he has the worst per carry avg (3.9 yds) except for Eddie George.
If Edge James can sniff the HOF while leading the NFL in rushing two straight years and finishing in the top 10 in yds five times how can Bettis be enshrined? And no, I am not saying Edge deserves to be in but Bettis to me is another Floyd Little. Good player for a career. Great for a couple of years.
Besides stats that hold him out he has a personal side of him that will most likely get him enshrined. His knick name The Bus and his jovial persona really help his chances.
Edgerrin James isn't eligible for the first time until next year.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I know I am in the minority but I don't think Bettis belongs in the top 10 this year yet belongs sniffing the HOF.
The only reason (IMO) he is considered is he ground out his career at the end just to pass Dorsett and Dickerson. The just force ran him into the stat book. Out off all the RB's who have ran for 10,000 yards he has the worst per carry avg (3.9 yds) except for Eddie George.
If Edge James can sniff the HOF while leading the NFL in rushing two straight years and finishing in the top 10 in yds five times how can Bettis be enshrined? And no, I am not saying Edge deserves to be in but Bettis to me is another Floyd Little. Good player for a career. Great for a couple of years.
Besides stats that hold him out he has a personal side of him that will most likely get him enshrined. His knick name The Bus and his jovial persona really help his chances. >>
I think you hit the nail on the head with your last quote. It's always important to understand that this is partially a popularity contest. Bettis being one of the most popular players on a popular team during a successful stretch. While many do not feel his style of play equates to HOF status, comparing him to Eddie George gives us a very good basis to see the difference in style.
Style over substance has long been a HOF hallmark. It's not necessarily the number if yards or receptions. But the importance of them and the style in which they were gained. Bettis was unique because of his agility and size combination. You watch Eddie George, who was a fine RB, but he was a plodder. Honestly fairly boring to watch. "The Bus" made big plays when needed and he did it in a way that made seeing it interesting. It was a Wow factor watching a guy that size with the footwork he had.
Bettis will get in at some point. He's already made the final 10 in just a couple of years on the ballot. Mostly due to the reasons above combined with his numbers and longevity. If it this year then certainly the next couple. Ed James comes up next year and my feeling they would like to get Bettis in now and then the next few classe they can debate Riger Craig vs James as they were similar RBs. No one eligible now or the near future is really comparable to Bettis and it could create a similar logjam that they had at WR for a few years. We shall see. I still think he's the 5th guy right now but could change if we tart hearing more and more about DeBartolo and/or Dungy.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here are the major players coming up for induction the next few years...I'm only listing the ones i feel have a better than 50% chance at becoming a HOFer:
2015: Junior Seau Kurt Warner Kevin Mawae
2016: Brett Favre Alan Faneca Terrell Owens
2017: LaDanian Tomlinson Jason Taylor Brain Dawkins
2018: Ray Lewis Brian Urlacher Randy Moss Richard Seymour
Its going to get pretty crowded at the top. Break it down by groups: Skill Players (QB, RB, WR, TE)- 5 (current top 15- 4) Off Line- 2 ( current top 15- 2) Defensive Front Seven- 5 (current top 15- 4) D Backs- 1 (current top 15- 2) Special Teams/Non-players- 0 (current top 15- 3)
-Skill players, are going to get very crowded pretty soon, but at the same time, its the only group which you can expect to see 3 guys get put in from in one year..These are the glory spots. Cant imagine not having one or two every Class for the next few years.
-O-Line isnt too stacked, especially with Walter Jones a lock this year...BUT these other 3 are interior lineman and could logjam a guy like Shields...I think Shields will get in the Class of 2015 without much trouble.
-Defensive front, both pass rushers, and in a few years LBs are going to get tough. Guy like Zach Thomas didnt even make the top 25! Brooks will go in, but you are still looking at 8 future HOfers eligible in the next 4 years after him. Can see one pass rusher going in every year 2014-2017, with Ray Lewis and Urlacher bucking the trend of not putting in first ballot guys at same positions in 2018.
-D-Backs will stay light. Aeneas will likley be the next, my guess is 2016. Then Dawkins vs. Lynch debate down the road with both eventually getting in before Polamalu and Ed Reed come up. Ty Law might get some support as well, as I think the voters are going to look favorably on players from those Patriots teams (Seymour being another)
-ST/Non-Players...No rush with these guys...The nonplayers dont go to the senior pool ever. Morten, tough to predict if/when he makes it. Likely well into the 2020's.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I know I am in the minority but I don't think Bettis belongs in the top 10 this year yet belongs sniffing the HOF.
The only reason (IMO) he is considered is he ground out his career at the end just to pass Dorsett and Dickerson. The just force ran him into the stat book. Out off all the RB's who have ran for 10,000 yards he has the worst per carry avg (3.9 yds) except for Eddie George.
If Edge James can sniff the HOF while leading the NFL in rushing two straight years and finishing in the top 10 in yds five times how can Bettis be enshrined? And no, I am not saying Edge deserves to be in but Bettis to me is another Floyd Little. Good player for a career. Great for a couple of years.
Besides stats that hold him out he has a personal side of him that will most likely get him enshrined. His knick name The Bus and his jovial persona really help his chances. >>
Hello, a few thoughts from someone that lives five minutes from the Hall.
I think that Walter Jones is a 100% Lock. I feel 90 - 95% sure that Derrick Brooks and Michael Strahan will get in. I think that either Will Shields or John Lynch will get in, with a slightly better feeling for Shields. I think it is a COMLETE JOKE that Ed DeBartolo is again a finalist. He owned the 49ers when they won 5 Super Bowls.
SO WHAT. Big deal. Who Cares.
Should we also Induct Clint Murchison ??? I am a twenty year season ticket holder of the Cleveland Browns. I can make a much better argument for Art Modell than for E. D. I can make a better argument for Bud Adams. Heck, I could make a better argument for Bob Tisch. What exactly was the Five, the Four, or even the THREE, major things that Ed ever did for the advancement and building of the NFL ?? Whatever major accomplishments he did, I missed them.
Charles Haley.... Five Super Bowl Rings. Who gives a rats A$$. Does that mean that Thomas ( Satch ) Sanders should be inducted into the basketball HOF ??? He won EIGHT NBA championships. There are at least 6 guys that won SEVEN or more World Series with the Yankees that are not in the Hall of Fame. Haley went to 5 Pro Bowls, and was all-Pro twice. Very Nice..... Hardly HOF worthy.
Speaking of NOT being Hall of Fame worthy.... Jerome Bettis. Another Very good player. Would be a joke if he got elected. 2 All-Pros and 6 Pro Bowls. Meanwhile , Al "OX" Wistert was 1st Team ALL-PRO, EIGHT times, and he is still waiting.
I do NOT know how to post articles. Could someone PLEASE google the following : Sports Central Pro Football Hall of Fame 2006 Five Quick Hits Brad Oremland. Someone please post the article. When reading it, scroll just a little more than 1/2 way down to PROSPECTS. Read what Brad wrote, then tell me he deserves election.
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
Since the Steelers won Super Bowl XL, there's been a lot of talk about Jerome Bettis and Bill Cowher going to Canton. I really like both men, but I'm here to tell you that neither one is a lock.
Cowher is 141-82-1 (.632) in the regular season and 12-9 (.571) in the postseason. Every one of his Steeler teams has finished in the top half of the league in total defense and points allowed. Cowher's greatest strength may be his ability to find talented assistants. His current staff includes Grimm, Dick LeBeau, and Ken Whisenhunt, all of whom are head coaching prospects.
That's a very impressive résumé, and Cowher — now 14th in career coaching victories — might get my vote if he retired today. I'd like to see him add a few more successful seasons, though, before the question marks disappear.
You'll notice I haven't mentioned the Super Bowl on Cowher's résumé. That's intentional. Is he a better coach today than he was two weeks ago? I thought before the big game that Cowher was a better coach than Mike Holmgren, and I still do.
The Bus is a trickier subject. Actually, there's nothing tricky, it's just that I don't want to be mean. Bettis does not deserve to make the Hall. In 13 seasons, Bettis never led the league in rushing yards, average, or touchdowns, and he was never regarded as the best running back in the game. To me, that seems like an obvious HOF criterion. If he was never — even at his best — considered the top player at his position, he was merely very good.
Despite consistent performance, Bettis only had three really good seasons. He was a top-10 rusher five times, but in two of those seasons — 1994 and 2000 — he clearly was not one of the top-10 RBs in the league. In '94, he averaged 3.2 yards per carry and rushed for only three touchdowns. In '00, he averaged 3.8 and had under 100 receiving yards. And in both seasons, he barely cracked the top 10 to begin with.
If Bettis is inducted, he will be only the second running back with a career average worse than four yards per carry. The first, John Riggins, retired as the third-leading rusher of all-time, was the second player ever to rush for 100 touchdowns, held the NFL's single-season TD record, and was arguably the greatest postseason rusher of all-time. Riggins once had six straight 100-yard games in the postseason, including his 166-yard MVP performance in Super Bowl XVII. Bettis had only three 100-yard games in the postseason during his career, with a high of 105.
If Bettis is inducted, he will have the fewest rushing TDs of any RB who played during or after 1980, and the lowest rushing TDs per game of any HOF running back who played after the AFL merger. He will have the second-fewest receptions, receiving yards, and receiving TDs of any RB who played 16-game seasons for his whole career, ahead of only Earl Campbell, who retired after eight seasons.
Bettis is the Rafael Palmeiro of running backs, except that he's probably not a steroid user. The big career numbers are from being good and playing a lot, not from being great. He had a mediocre rushing average, he wasn't a great short-yardage back until past his prime, he couldn't catch, and he was never a big-game player.
The Bus will probably get in — it doesn't hurt that he's so well-liked — but he shouldn't and he isn't a lock.
IMHO Bettis is not a HOFer either. It's been mentioned that like E James he was a load that could move. True. Speaking of a load that could move...and with a target on his jersey... Being old enough to have seen Earl Campbell play I can honestly say that either are not a pimple on his A _ _. Grear player, likeable, steady but not Canton bound.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
My biggest takeaway. Always keep in mind the HOF is much like the future HOFer set on the registry. The voting is subjective and many different opinions can be found on each nominee. The fact that Bettis made the final 10 last year speaks of the support he has for induction. It's not done via a computer program or Madden video game rating. It's the opinion of the voters and we've seen many of which vote for things other than strictly numbers or accolades.
Bettis will be enshrined. Agree or disagree. This year or down the road. Personally I just assume get him in and out of the way so Roger Craig and Ed James (both I personally think are deserving) can get a fair shake.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Outside of Jones and Brooks I have no idea of how the vote is going to go.lol
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
First of all, THANK YOU to jay0791 for posting the article for me. Don't get me wrong, Even though I live five minutes from the Hall, have had season tickets to the Browns since 1989, and hate the steelers, that has NOTHING to do with my thoughts on Jerome Bettis. The article that was written in 2006, speaks to why I don't think Bettis deserves Induction. You would NEVER see me say anything negative if Andy Russell was nominated. Or Donnie Shell. As you may know, I am really an autograph collector. My November 1940 Type written letter, on Steeler Letterhead with the original mailing envelope, that is signed by Walter A. Kiesling is one of my favorite 3 or 4 items that I own. If anyone wants to post it, it was in a HERITAGEAUCTION in May 2006.
My picks for the 2014 Class :
Derrick Brooks Ray Guy Claude Humphrey Walter Jones John Lynch Will Shields Michael Strahan
Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
I'll take that action, Jay, since I'm going with Seattle to win outright.
My HOF Picks: Humphrey Guy Brooks Jones Harrison Williams Haley
Actually I think Strahan will get in over Haley, but I'm pulling for the upset.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Your first member of the Class of 2014...Andre Reed.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
And member #2 is Michael Strahan. Looking for more leaks now.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
It looks like the class consists of Ray Guy, Claude Humphrey, Walter Jones, Michael Strahan, Aenaes Williams, Derrick Brooks, and Andre Reed.
So no Harrison or Haley.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Here is my broad brush on what I see at the moment.
LOCKS- Walter Jones, Derrick Brooks...Just don't see anything that would stop either of these players from becoming first ballot HOFers this year
NO CHANCE: Tim Brown- Will not get in over Harrison or Reed, and 3 WRs arent going in with one class. Kevin Greene- Won't get in as a pass rusher over Strahan or Haley... John Lynch- Glad to see him move to the top 15, but he's still at the back of the line of 15 Morten Andersen- Same as above
Leaves 9 players who are iffy, I will give my odds/ranks. I think one of these 2 will get in.......... Michael Strahan- 90%...Was shocked he wasn't first ballot, but the voters decided not to put 2 D-lineman in together. Won't stop Strahan this year..Only one slim possibility can. Charles Haley- 10%...Only thing that could bump Strahan this year is if the voters go with Haley instead. He's waited so much longer and has made the cut to the final 10 the past 2 years.
I think one of these 2 will also get in................ Andre Reed- 60%...With Carter finally breaking the logjam last year, will be interesting to see how Reed vs. Harrison is treated. Based on how the voters put Monk in before Carter, I think the same holds true and in this case go with the guy who's been waiting the longest. Marvin Harrison- 40%...Certainly could be Harrison over Reed as his numbers and accolades are simply better. He does have his detractors however, and while he is certain to make the HOF, is he a 1st ballot guy? That's the debate here. Now or later. For now, Im guessing later.
So 4 of the 5 slots now filled...Who gets the 5th slot is really up for grabs amongst the last 5 guys.
Jerome Bettis- 30%....Bettis is my favorite at the moment in this group. Reasoning is that of the other 4, you have 2 defensive players, 1 offensive lineman, and 1 skill player...I dont see a 3rd defensive player from the moderns, especially with Humphrey as a Senior. Also dont see a 2nd Offensive lineman. Bettis made the cut to the final 10 last year, which means he's near the top of the line of 15. Eddie DeBartolo- 25%....He's the leader between himself and Dungy I think. Would they put Dungy in first ballot? Maybe...With D Brooks? Maybe...But for now, betting no. Very possible they go with a non-player in the 5th spot as well. Tony Dungy- 25%...He's going to go in eventually, but 2 things are against him...1, He's still young..Will he go back to coaching or is he really retired for good..And 2, Harrison and Brooks are ahead of him from the same teams. Aeneas Williams- 15%...Made the cut to the final 10 the last 2 years...Only thing stopping him is that I dont see them putting 3 of 5 modern candidates as defensive players. Will Shields- 5%...Super Long shot, as the voters would have to put in 2 offensive lineman when you have such a large cross section of HOF worthy guys. AND he was a Guard (get little respect in HOF circles)...He's never made the cut to 10.
They are supposed to be putting camera's in the HOF meeting room this year. Something we talked about in this thread a few years back, and I'm stoked that the walls are finally coming down a bit. That being said, I'm guessing our footage won't be live and continuous and it will resemble the cameras they place in NFL War rooms during the draft...lol..Its a good first step though.
Jason >>
Got em all except Aeneas. Surprised to see so many defensive guys in one class but Aeneas certainly deserving.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If Mr. Squires still roams these boards..a monstrous kudos. I can't remember a team so dominant ever in my life.
Was eli actually playing?
I must admit I was dead wrong on my predictions.
Rattle his cage Peyton just falls apart.....not entirely his fault....it was the whole team.
No way and how can Peyton be called the greatest QB of all time after that. Gotta give J Montana more credit. When the game was more important he always rose to the occassion.
Congrats to the new HOFers. I missed tose predictions to. I don't thing anyone here posted all 7 right.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>If Mr. Squires still roams these boards..a monstrous kudos. I can't remember a team so dominant ever in my life.
Was eli actually playing?
I must admit I was dead wrong on my predictions.
Rattle his cage Peyton just falls apart.....not entirely his fault....it was the whole team.
No way and how can Peyton be called the greatest QB of all time after that. Gotta give J Montana more credit. When the game was more important he always rose to the occassion.
Congrats to the new HOFers. I missed tose predictions to. I don't thing anyone here posted all 7 right. >>
always is a trap word.
Montana's Career Playoff Record was 16-7. Yes he was 4-0 in the SB. But all playoff games are important as there isn't next week if you lose.
Bart Starr was 9-1 in the playoffs. Yes not as many games but for the first 3 trips to the Playoffs it was just the NFL Championship game. His lone loss was his first playoff game to the Eagles in a game they came up just a few yards and seconds short of winning. He never lost again in the Playoffs.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Junior Seau Kurt Warner Marvin Harrison Will Shields Charles Haley
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jason You forgot the 2 senior picks. lets have your top 5 >>
Here are my top 5 Seniors for next year...I don't think they will select both OL's, but rather one of the OLs and then one of the defensive players.
MICK TINGELHOFF BOB KUECHENBERG MIKE CURTIS EDDIE MEADOR CHUCK HOWLEY
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Never too early to look over next years class...
My much too early predictions for next year:
Junior Seau Kurt Warner Marvin Harrison Will Shields Charles Haley >>
+1
<< <i>Here are my top 5 Seniors for next year...I don't think they will select both OL's, but rather one of the OLs and then one of the defensive players.
MICK TINGELHOFF BOB KUECHENBERG MIKE CURTIS EDDIE MEADOR CHUCK HOWLEY >>
Jason, are your Senior picks based on any chatter you've heard, or are they best guesses?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Never too early to look over next years class...
My much too early predictions for next year:
Junior Seau Kurt Warner Marvin Harrison Will Shields Charles Haley >>
+1
<< <i>Here are my top 5 Seniors for next year...I don't think they will select both OL's, but rather one of the OLs and then one of the defensive players.
MICK TINGELHOFF BOB KUECHENBERG MIKE CURTIS EDDIE MEADOR CHUCK HOWLEY >>
Jason, are your Senior picks based on any chatter you've heard, or are they best guesses? >>
Both. Took the chatter and votes from the last senior selections in August and applied hem logically base on how the committee typically operates and which 5 voters are scheduled to be in Canton next August. Curtis and Meador personally aren't in my top 10 but each got quite a bit of support last year. Surprisingly so to me after hearing about it.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
List of Senior candidates who have made it to the final 15 seniors the last 3 years...Some once, some twice, some all 3 years...But these are the guys who have been getting the most votes who are not yet in..
Al Wistert Alex Karras Bob Kuechenberg Chuck Howley Cliff Branch Cliff Harris Dick Stanfel (hasn't been in the final 15 since being rejected as a finalist) Eddie Meador Jerry Kramer Johnny Robinson Ken Riley Lavvie Dilweg LC Greenwood Maxie Baughan Mick Tinglehoff Mike Curtis Roger Brown Tommy Nobis
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hello Men. I've been out of the hobby for a few years....sometimes when life happens cards don't. But I'm putting a toe back in the water and hope to get my passion going again. I see my collection has slipped out of the top twenty so that's a sign the Football HOF set registry is getting stronger. I am in the process of culling my cards to concentrate on HOF, Future HOF, and Cowboy RC. It's great to be back.
Here is my prediction for next years HOF inductees and reasons why:
1. Junior Seau----No Brainer
2. Kurt Warner---No Brainer II
3. Orlando Pace--No Brainer III
4. Charles Haley--It is time for Haley. I sort of understand the snub. He was a total tool when I watch him in Dallas and though a preeminent pass rusher his sack total (100.5) pales in comparison to others. I think he is about 30th all time in sacks. But he was a frightening man to play against and the only holder of 5 SB rings.
5. Tim Brown----The WR log jam continues to erode. I know some will say no way he gets in before Harrison but I think their stats are pretty close and Brown was a more versatile player. I know Brown has some skeletons rattling in his closet that might turn off some HOF voters but some forget that Harrison does too.
Seniors are a hard bunch to chose from and think their induction debates are probably more heated than the non-seniors But my two for 2015 are listed below, my reasons just because 1. Chuck Howley 2. Randy Gradishar
Welcome back, Dave! Enjoy the ride back into the Top 20.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
More voices more opinions the better......as long as u agree with me !!!!!!!!!!!! lol
10 different people could give 10 different senior picks
Kramer to me is the most odvious snub.
I have always liked Tingelhoff he gets no respect...the Rodney Dangerfield of football. >>
Really is Jay. Their process is conducive to hrs by sending a different group of 5 seniors to choose the 2 finalists from the top 15 each year. Really could be anyone. Curley Culp for example. Hadnt been in the top 15 seniors prior to last year. Then boom he gets the pick over others who seemingly had more support. It's basically because there are still 2 camps of thought amongst the 9 members Of the senior committee.
I like the odds of Kuech, Tingelhoff, maybe even Kramer or Wistert getting in. They've cleared a bit of the defensive backlog and there haven't been any strongly supported skill position players up. All of these guys have valid reasons for induction while also having valid reasons they shouldn't be in. Truly all are borderline guys but yet many are deserving. Tingelhoff gets killed by his Super Bowl performances which have led to him being considered average vs. high level competition and defensive lineman. It's probably a bit unfair a he was one of the best regular season players of his day. But the voters look at some of the manhandling she got in the Super Bowl and go with a different guy. Kuech and Kramer have to overcome playing beside better players at a weak position of OG. Wistert just needs someone to educate the other voters well enough to put him over.
Always an interesting thing to watch at least. Lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
<< <i>At this point in Thomas' career he has played the same number of seasons as Boselli (though Boselli appeared in fewer games due to injury). While both were equally dominant LT's I think Thomas has a slight edge and better chance than Boselli b/c he has 2 more Pro Bowls and 1 more All Pro.
I might be in the minority but I believe Young had a career that was worthy of induction to the HOF. He lacks the career accolades and awards but he was a force on the DL. Young excelled at stopping the run and generating pressure on the QB. I also think it can be argued that he was a better all around player than Sapp or Randle. >>
I agree on Thomas/Boselli....And Boselli has been eligible for a few years now and hasn't made the top 25.
Same with Young, he isn't close to HOF induction and has been eligible. Tough to say he was a better "all-around" player as so many factors go into that. Why was he better? In the defense he played in, did he more often do what was asked of him? Are you saying Sapp and Randle didn't execute to perfection what was asked of them in the defensive schemes they played in?
I think it's important to remember this is a subjective process. Even HOF voters who have followed the ins and outs of every play in a guys career don't always agree on if a guy is HOF worthy. I usually try and err on the side of calling guys HOFers when there isn't much debate on their worthiness. I mean, if i say Derrick Brooks is a HOFer, there won't be too many disagreeing..When you have a player where 50% or less people think he is HOF caliber, then he's already borderline, so why rush to annoint them. Put in all the players with little or no debate FIRST....Only 5 slots a year for the modern guys...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>I think you make an excellent point in regards to the type of systems Randle and Sapp played in. Both played in systems where the DL played the run on the way to the QB and the goal was to put pressure on the passing game. I do think its fair to wonder if Young could of posted better sack numbers if he played in a Tampa 2 style defense. >>
Young was always an excellent disrupter on the inside and likely would have been excellent in as a 2 gap DT. Somewhat the diff between him and Justin Smith. Smith really is moreso built to be a rush DE but was a little too big and a little too slow to be great at it. I don't think he would have done well at all as in inside DT. He's great at holding the point of attack and stopping the run. Just good/slightly above average as disrupter. Young had the strength and quickness very similar to Sapp and likely would have had similar numbers and accolades had he played for Tampa those years.
Just goes to show how many variables go into trying to determine if a guy is worthy of the HOF. Numbers can be deceptive in many cases and sometimes great players get overlooked simply because they played for a crappy team. It's part of what makes the debates interesting and makes the HOF such an exclusive place. Planets have to align for everything to come together for a player. Really do.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think you make an excellent point in regards to the type of systems Randle and Sapp played in. Both played in systems where the DL played the run on the way to the QB and the goal was to put pressure on the passing game. I do think its fair to wonder if Young could of posted better sack numbers if he played in a Tampa 2 style defense. >>
Young was always an excellent disrupter on the inside and likely would have been excellent in as a 2 gap DT. Somewhat the diff between him and Justin Smith. Smith really is moreso built to be a rush DE but was a little too big and a little too slow to be great at it. I don't think he would have done well at all as in inside DT. He's great at holding the point of attack and stopping the run. Just good/slightly above average as disrupter. Young had the strength and quickness very similar to Sapp and likely would have had similar numbers and accolades had he played for Tampa those years.
Just goes to show how many variables go into trying to determine if a guy is worthy of the HOF. Numbers can be deceptive in many cases and sometimes great players get overlooked simply because they played for a crappy team. It's part of what makes the debates interesting and makes the HOF such an exclusive place. Planets have to align for everything to come together for a player. Really do. >>
I see Smith a little differently, I have always viewed him as a strong side end who the Bengals tried to use on the left side as a pass rusher. I never really understood why they had him RDE when he was always on the big side and not a player who could consistently turn the corner. Since he arrived in San Francisco they have allowed him to play to his strengths were he can rush the interior of the OL and use his explosiveness and power to put pressure on the QB. He's not a guy who can shoot gaps but he can jam nearly any guard, tackle, or center back into the QB pretty consistently.
I do agree with your statements on crappy teams and how they impact how a player was perceived. Just look at Corey Dillon.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Corey Dillon, for me, was a good runner. I don't think playing for the Bengals is the reason he won't make the HOF. Ricky Watters played for a Super Bowl winning team, also accumulated big numbers yet also will never get a sniff for similar reasons. Talent alone isn't getting a guy votes for the HOF. Neither are stats alone. Both were selfish players and universally disliked by most if the guys doing the voting. You can't be a borderline HOF talent with borderline HOF numbers an have any chance when the voters mostly dislike you. This is going to make TO and Moss very very interesting cases when they come up in a few years. Did they do enough in the field and out up enough numbers to overcome the dislike most voters have for them? I bet neither goes in first ballot. Don't think Marvin Harrison does this year either. We can't forget that like pro bowl and all pro voting. It's voting! Which means it's partially a popularity contest. Disliked players need HUGE numbers or accolades. And adored players can get in with lesser numbers and accolades.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>No I think we are in agreement on Smith. He wasn't and isn't cut out to be a 4-3 pass rusher. Also not cutout to play inside. It's somewhat the argument that keeps a lot of OG and S out of the HOF. Not good enough to be a tackle or a corner hence typically less valued position. I'll be one of the more shocke people on the planet if Justin Smith ever makes the top 25. I've watched him plenty. And he's a very good player but just not dominant enough to ever get the attention required to get votes for the HOF.
Corey Dillon, for me, was a good runner. I don't think playing for the Bengals is the reason he won't make the HOF. Ricky Watters played for a Super Bowl winning team, also accumulated big numbers yet also will never get a sniff for similar reasons. Talent alone isn't getting a guy votes for the HOF. Neither are stats alone. Both were selfish players and universally disliked by most if the guys doing the voting. You can't be a borderline HOF talent with borderline HOF numbers an have any chance when the voters mostly dislike you. This is going to make TO and Moss very very interesting cases when they come up in a few years. Did they do enough in the field and out up enough numbers to overcome the dislike most voters have for them? I bet neither goes in first ballot. Don't think Marvin Harrison does this year either. We can't forget that like pro bowl and all pro voting. It's voting! Which means it's partially a popularity contest. Disliked players need HUGE numbers or accolades. And adored players can get in with lesser numbers and accolades. >>
During his time with the Bengals I think Smith would of been an excellent strong side end who played the run very well and produced 7-10 sacks a season if the RDE he played with was a good pass rusher. I also believe Smith has bulked up even further since joining the 49'ers and bet he's closer to 300 pounds now rather than his often listed weight of around 275 pounds so he might be able to hold up at DT now (compared to his days in the 4-3 system). I live on the East coast and have not seen a lot of Smith since he left the Bengals but when I have seen him play in recent years I have always been impressed with how dominant he is from the 3-4 End position. His ability to drive blockers backwards is jaw dropping at times.
I have seen those comments about Watters before and its a shame b/c he was a very talented player. Moss and Owens will be 2 interesting cases.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>The 15 finalists will be announced tonight at 9pm ET on the NFL Network >>
Morten Andersen the only surprise. Though he was more in the 20 range but like the addition. Also good to see Lynch move up the ranks. Hopefully can break the S freeze out in the next few years.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Derrick Brooks
Charles Haley
Walter Jones
Andre Reed
Michael Strahan
[no senior nominees get elected]
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>I'll predict
Derrick Brooks
Charles Haley
Walter Jones
Andre Reed
Michael Strahan
[no senior nominees get elected]
Nick >>
I've got the same with the exception of Haley. I'm undecided in that 5th slot but at the moment I think it's either Bettis or a nonplayer, Dungy or Debartolo.
I think both seniors get in as well.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jones
Brooks
Strahan
Shields
Debartolo
Humphrey
Guy
Now the most imortant question:
Does anyone have an extra PSA 97 SP Jones to sell me
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>whats J evans rc? >>
I believe it is 2010 Topps. His only card from that year and nothing earlier that I have found.
Jones
Brooks
Aeneas
Haley
Harrison
Humphrey
Guy
I think Strahan or Bettis could replace one of these guys. Maybe even Reed. Not sure any other player has much of a shot to get in this year.
LOCKS- Walter Jones, Derrick Brooks...Just don't see anything that would stop either of these players from becoming first ballot HOFers this year
NO CHANCE:
Tim Brown- Will not get in over Harrison or Reed, and 3 WRs arent going in with one class.
Kevin Greene- Won't get in as a pass rusher over Strahan or Haley...
John Lynch- Glad to see him move to the top 15, but he's still at the back of the line of 15
Morten Andersen- Same as above
Leaves 9 players who are iffy, I will give my odds/ranks.
I think one of these 2 will get in..........
Michael Strahan- 90%...Was shocked he wasn't first ballot, but the voters decided not to put 2 D-lineman in together. Won't stop Strahan this year..Only one slim possibility can.
Charles Haley- 10%...Only thing that could bump Strahan this year is if the voters go with Haley instead. He's waited so much longer and has made the cut to the final 10 the past 2 years.
I think one of these 2 will also get in................
Andre Reed- 60%...With Carter finally breaking the logjam last year, will be interesting to see how Reed vs. Harrison is treated. Based on how the voters put Monk in before Carter, I think the same holds true and in this case go with the guy who's been waiting the longest.
Marvin Harrison- 40%...Certainly could be Harrison over Reed as his numbers and accolades are simply better. He does have his detractors however, and while he is certain to make the HOF, is he a 1st ballot guy? That's the debate here. Now or later. For now, Im guessing later.
So 4 of the 5 slots now filled...Who gets the 5th slot is really up for grabs amongst the last 5 guys.
Jerome Bettis- 30%....Bettis is my favorite at the moment in this group. Reasoning is that of the other 4, you have 2 defensive players, 1 offensive lineman, and 1 skill player...I dont see a 3rd defensive player from the moderns, especially with Humphrey as a Senior. Also dont see a 2nd Offensive lineman. Bettis made the cut to the final 10 last year, which means he's near the top of the line of 15.
Eddie DeBartolo- 25%....He's the leader between himself and Dungy I think. Would they put Dungy in first ballot? Maybe...With D Brooks? Maybe...But for now, betting no. Very possible they go with a non-player in the 5th spot as well.
Tony Dungy- 25%...He's going to go in eventually, but 2 things are against him...1, He's still young..Will he go back to coaching or is he really retired for good..And 2, Harrison and Brooks are ahead of him from the same teams.
Aeneas Williams- 15%...Made the cut to the final 10 the last 2 years...Only thing stopping him is that I dont see them putting 3 of 5 modern candidates as defensive players.
Will Shields- 5%...Super Long shot, as the voters would have to put in 2 offensive lineman when you have such a large cross section of HOF worthy guys. AND he was a Guard (get little respect in HOF circles)...He's never made the cut to 10.
They are supposed to be putting camera's in the HOF meeting room this year. Something we talked about in this thread a few years back, and I'm stoked that the walls are finally coming down a bit. That being said, I'm guessing our footage won't be live and continuous and it will resemble the cameras they place in NFL War rooms during the draft...lol..Its a good first step though.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The only reason (IMO) he is considered is he ground out his career at the end just to pass Dorsett and Dickerson. The just force ran him into the stat book. Out off all the RB's who have ran for 10,000 yards he has the worst per carry avg (3.9 yds) except for Eddie George.
If Edge James can sniff the HOF while leading the NFL in rushing two straight years and finishing in the top 10 in yds five times how can Bettis be enshrined? And no, I am not saying Edge deserves to be in but Bettis to me is another Floyd Little. Good player for a career. Great for a couple of years.
Besides stats that hold him out he has a personal side of him that will most likely get him enshrined. His knick name The Bus and his jovial persona really help his chances.
<< <i>I know I am in the minority but I don't think Bettis belongs in the top 10 this year yet belongs sniffing the HOF.
The only reason (IMO) he is considered is he ground out his career at the end just to pass Dorsett and Dickerson. The just force ran him into the stat book. Out off all the RB's who have ran for 10,000 yards he has the worst per carry avg (3.9 yds) except for Eddie George.
If Edge James can sniff the HOF while leading the NFL in rushing two straight years and finishing in the top 10 in yds five times how can Bettis be enshrined? And no, I am not saying Edge deserves to be in but Bettis to me is another Floyd Little. Good player for a career. Great for a couple of years.
Besides stats that hold him out he has a personal side of him that will most likely get him enshrined. His knick name The Bus and his jovial persona really help his chances. >>
I think you hit the nail on the head with your last quote. It's always important to understand that this is partially a popularity contest. Bettis being one of the most popular players on a popular team during a successful stretch. While many do not feel his style of play equates to HOF status, comparing him to Eddie George gives us a very good basis to see the difference in style.
Style over substance has long been a HOF hallmark. It's not necessarily the number if yards or receptions. But the importance of them and the style in which they were gained. Bettis was unique because of his agility and size combination. You watch Eddie George, who was a fine RB, but he was a plodder. Honestly fairly boring to watch. "The Bus" made big plays when needed and he did it in a way that made seeing it interesting. It was a Wow factor watching a guy that size with the footwork he had.
Bettis will get in at some point. He's already made the final 10 in just a couple of years on the ballot. Mostly due to the reasons above combined with his numbers and longevity. If it this year then certainly the next couple. Ed James comes up next year and my feeling they would like to get Bettis in now and then the next few classe they can debate Riger Craig vs James as they were similar RBs. No one eligible now or the near future is really comparable to Bettis and it could create a similar logjam that they had at WR for a few years. We shall see. I still think he's the 5th guy right now but could change if we tart hearing more and more about DeBartolo and/or Dungy.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
2015:
Junior Seau
Kurt Warner
Kevin Mawae
2016:
Brett Favre
Alan Faneca
Terrell Owens
2017:
LaDanian Tomlinson
Jason Taylor
Brain Dawkins
2018:
Ray Lewis
Brian Urlacher
Randy Moss
Richard Seymour
Its going to get pretty crowded at the top. Break it down by groups:
Skill Players (QB, RB, WR, TE)- 5 (current top 15- 4)
Off Line- 2 ( current top 15- 2)
Defensive Front Seven- 5 (current top 15- 4)
D Backs- 1 (current top 15- 2)
Special Teams/Non-players- 0 (current top 15- 3)
-Skill players, are going to get very crowded pretty soon, but at the same time, its the only group which you can expect to see 3 guys get put in from in one year..These are the glory spots. Cant imagine not having one or two every Class for the next few years.
-O-Line isnt too stacked, especially with Walter Jones a lock this year...BUT these other 3 are interior lineman and could logjam a guy like Shields...I think Shields will get in the Class of 2015 without much trouble.
-Defensive front, both pass rushers, and in a few years LBs are going to get tough. Guy like Zach Thomas didnt even make the top 25! Brooks will go in, but you are still looking at 8 future HOfers eligible in the next 4 years after him. Can see one pass rusher going in every year 2014-2017, with Ray Lewis and Urlacher bucking the trend of not putting in first ballot guys at same positions in 2018.
-D-Backs will stay light. Aeneas will likley be the next, my guess is 2016. Then Dawkins vs. Lynch debate down the road with both eventually getting in before Polamalu and Ed Reed come up. Ty Law might get some support as well, as I think the voters are going to look favorably on players from those Patriots teams (Seymour being another)
-ST/Non-Players...No rush with these guys...The nonplayers dont go to the senior pool ever. Morten, tough to predict if/when he makes it. Likely well into the 2020's.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I know I am in the minority but I don't think Bettis belongs in the top 10 this year yet belongs sniffing the HOF.
The only reason (IMO) he is considered is he ground out his career at the end just to pass Dorsett and Dickerson. The just force ran him into the stat book. Out off all the RB's who have ran for 10,000 yards he has the worst per carry avg (3.9 yds) except for Eddie George.
If Edge James can sniff the HOF while leading the NFL in rushing two straight years and finishing in the top 10 in yds five times how can Bettis be enshrined? And no, I am not saying Edge deserves to be in but Bettis to me is another Floyd Little. Good player for a career. Great for a couple of years.
Besides stats that hold him out he has a personal side of him that will most likely get him enshrined. His knick name The Bus and his jovial persona really help his chances. >>
+1
I think that Walter Jones is a 100% Lock. I feel 90 - 95% sure that Derrick Brooks and Michael Strahan will get in. I think that either Will Shields or John Lynch will get in, with a slightly better feeling for Shields. I think it is a COMLETE JOKE that Ed DeBartolo is again a finalist. He owned the 49ers when they won 5 Super Bowls.
SO WHAT. Big deal. Who Cares.
Should we also Induct Clint Murchison ??? I am a twenty year season ticket holder of the Cleveland Browns. I can make a much better argument for Art Modell than for E. D. I can make a better argument for Bud Adams. Heck, I could make a better argument for Bob Tisch. What exactly was the Five, the Four, or even the THREE, major things that Ed ever did for the advancement and building of the NFL ?? Whatever major accomplishments he did, I missed them.
Charles Haley.... Five Super Bowl Rings. Who gives a rats A$$. Does that mean that Thomas ( Satch ) Sanders should be inducted into the basketball HOF ??? He won EIGHT NBA championships. There are at least 6 guys that won SEVEN or more World Series with the Yankees that are not in the Hall of Fame. Haley went to 5 Pro Bowls, and was all-Pro twice. Very Nice..... Hardly HOF worthy.
Speaking of NOT being Hall of Fame worthy.... Jerome Bettis. Another Very good player. Would be a joke if he got elected. 2 All-Pros and 6 Pro Bowls. Meanwhile , Al "OX" Wistert was 1st Team ALL-PRO, EIGHT times, and he is still waiting.
I do NOT know how to post articles. Could someone PLEASE google the following : Sports Central Pro Football Hall of Fame 2006 Five Quick Hits Brad Oremland. Someone please post the article. When reading it, scroll just a little more than 1/2 way down to PROSPECTS. Read what Brad wrote, then tell me he deserves election.
Here is the piece.
Prospects
Since the Steelers won Super Bowl XL, there's been a lot of talk about Jerome Bettis and Bill Cowher going to Canton. I really like both men, but I'm here to tell you that neither one is a lock.
Cowher is 141-82-1 (.632) in the regular season and 12-9 (.571) in the postseason. Every one of his Steeler teams has finished in the top half of the league in total defense and points allowed. Cowher's greatest strength may be his ability to find talented assistants. His current staff includes Grimm, Dick LeBeau, and Ken Whisenhunt, all of whom are head coaching prospects.
That's a very impressive résumé, and Cowher — now 14th in career coaching victories — might get my vote if he retired today. I'd like to see him add a few more successful seasons, though, before the question marks disappear.
You'll notice I haven't mentioned the Super Bowl on Cowher's résumé. That's intentional. Is he a better coach today than he was two weeks ago? I thought before the big game that Cowher was a better coach than Mike Holmgren, and I still do.
The Bus is a trickier subject. Actually, there's nothing tricky, it's just that I don't want to be mean. Bettis does not deserve to make the Hall. In 13 seasons, Bettis never led the league in rushing yards, average, or touchdowns, and he was never regarded as the best running back in the game. To me, that seems like an obvious HOF criterion. If he was never — even at his best — considered the top player at his position, he was merely very good.
Despite consistent performance, Bettis only had three really good seasons. He was a top-10 rusher five times, but in two of those seasons — 1994 and 2000 — he clearly was not one of the top-10 RBs in the league. In '94, he averaged 3.2 yards per carry and rushed for only three touchdowns. In '00, he averaged 3.8 and had under 100 receiving yards. And in both seasons, he barely cracked the top 10 to begin with.
If Bettis is inducted, he will be only the second running back with a career average worse than four yards per carry. The first, John Riggins, retired as the third-leading rusher of all-time, was the second player ever to rush for 100 touchdowns, held the NFL's single-season TD record, and was arguably the greatest postseason rusher of all-time. Riggins once had six straight 100-yard games in the postseason, including his 166-yard MVP performance in Super Bowl XVII. Bettis had only three 100-yard games in the postseason during his career, with a high of 105.
If Bettis is inducted, he will have the fewest rushing TDs of any RB who played during or after 1980, and the lowest rushing TDs per game of any HOF running back who played after the AFL merger. He will have the second-fewest receptions, receiving yards, and receiving TDs of any RB who played 16-game seasons for his whole career, ahead of only Earl Campbell, who retired after eight seasons.
Bettis is the Rafael Palmeiro of running backs, except that he's probably not a steroid user. The big career numbers are from being good and playing a lot, not from being great. He had a mediocre rushing average, he wasn't a great short-yardage back until past his prime, he couldn't catch, and he was never a big-game player.
The Bus will probably get in — it doesn't hurt that he's so well-liked — but he shouldn't and he isn't a lock.
IMHO Bettis is not a HOFer either.
It's been mentioned that like E James he was a load that could move. True. Speaking of a load that could move...and with a target on his jersey...
Being old enough to have seen Earl Campbell play I can honestly say that either are not a pimple on his A _ _.
Grear player, likeable, steady but not Canton bound.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
My biggest takeaway. Always keep in mind the HOF is much like the future HOFer set on the registry. The voting is subjective and many different opinions can be found on each nominee. The fact that Bettis made the final 10 last year speaks of the support he has for induction. It's not done via a computer program or Madden video game rating. It's the opinion of the voters and we've seen many of which vote for things other than strictly numbers or accolades.
Bettis will be enshrined. Agree or disagree. This year or down the road. Personally I just assume get him in and out of the way so Roger Craig and Ed James (both I personally think are deserving) can get a fair shake.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
email is LDFergi@gmail.com if interested.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
My picks for the 2014 Class :
Derrick Brooks
Ray Guy
Claude Humphrey
Walter Jones
John Lynch
Will Shields
Michael Strahan
Rocke
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
Already stated my pics.
Denver by 14
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Denver by 14 >>
I'll take that action, Jay, since I'm going with Seattle to win outright.
My HOF Picks:
Humphrey
Guy
Brooks
Jones
Harrison
Williams
Haley
Actually I think Strahan will get in over Haley, but I'm pulling for the upset.
email me with a small bet no points straight up.
Keep in mind I'm not Upper class like you and Donald Trump.
Ray Guy !!!!!!!!!
Ray Guy !!!!!!!!!
Ray Guy !!!!!!!!
Or do I have to give u points
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
So no Harrison or Haley.
<< <i>Here is my broad brush on what I see at the moment.
LOCKS- Walter Jones, Derrick Brooks...Just don't see anything that would stop either of these players from becoming first ballot HOFers this year
NO CHANCE:
Tim Brown- Will not get in over Harrison or Reed, and 3 WRs arent going in with one class.
Kevin Greene- Won't get in as a pass rusher over Strahan or Haley...
John Lynch- Glad to see him move to the top 15, but he's still at the back of the line of 15
Morten Andersen- Same as above
Leaves 9 players who are iffy, I will give my odds/ranks.
I think one of these 2 will get in..........
Michael Strahan- 90%...Was shocked he wasn't first ballot, but the voters decided not to put 2 D-lineman in together. Won't stop Strahan this year..Only one slim possibility can.
Charles Haley- 10%...Only thing that could bump Strahan this year is if the voters go with Haley instead. He's waited so much longer and has made the cut to the final 10 the past 2 years.
I think one of these 2 will also get in................
Andre Reed- 60%...With Carter finally breaking the logjam last year, will be interesting to see how Reed vs. Harrison is treated. Based on how the voters put Monk in before Carter, I think the same holds true and in this case go with the guy who's been waiting the longest.
Marvin Harrison- 40%...Certainly could be Harrison over Reed as his numbers and accolades are simply better. He does have his detractors however, and while he is certain to make the HOF, is he a 1st ballot guy? That's the debate here. Now or later. For now, Im guessing later.
So 4 of the 5 slots now filled...Who gets the 5th slot is really up for grabs amongst the last 5 guys.
Jerome Bettis- 30%....Bettis is my favorite at the moment in this group. Reasoning is that of the other 4, you have 2 defensive players, 1 offensive lineman, and 1 skill player...I dont see a 3rd defensive player from the moderns, especially with Humphrey as a Senior. Also dont see a 2nd Offensive lineman. Bettis made the cut to the final 10 last year, which means he's near the top of the line of 15.
Eddie DeBartolo- 25%....He's the leader between himself and Dungy I think. Would they put Dungy in first ballot? Maybe...With D Brooks? Maybe...But for now, betting no. Very possible they go with a non-player in the 5th spot as well.
Tony Dungy- 25%...He's going to go in eventually, but 2 things are against him...1, He's still young..Will he go back to coaching or is he really retired for good..And 2, Harrison and Brooks are ahead of him from the same teams.
Aeneas Williams- 15%...Made the cut to the final 10 the last 2 years...Only thing stopping him is that I dont see them putting 3 of 5 modern candidates as defensive players.
Will Shields- 5%...Super Long shot, as the voters would have to put in 2 offensive lineman when you have such a large cross section of HOF worthy guys. AND he was a Guard (get little respect in HOF circles)...He's never made the cut to 10.
They are supposed to be putting camera's in the HOF meeting room this year. Something we talked about in this thread a few years back, and I'm stoked that the walls are finally coming down a bit. That being said, I'm guessing our footage won't be live and continuous and it will resemble the cameras they place in NFL War rooms during the draft...lol..Its a good first step though.
Jason >>
Got em all except Aeneas. Surprised to see so many defensive guys in one class but Aeneas certainly deserving.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I can't remember a team so dominant ever in my life.
Was eli actually playing?
I must admit I was dead wrong on my predictions.
Rattle his cage Peyton just falls apart.....not entirely his fault....it was the whole team.
No way and how can Peyton be called the greatest QB of all time after that.
Gotta give J Montana more credit. When the game was more important he always rose to
the occassion.
Congrats to the new HOFers. I missed tose predictions to.
I don't thing anyone here posted all 7 right.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>If Mr. Squires still roams these boards..a monstrous kudos.
I can't remember a team so dominant ever in my life.
Was eli actually playing?
I must admit I was dead wrong on my predictions.
Rattle his cage Peyton just falls apart.....not entirely his fault....it was the whole team.
No way and how can Peyton be called the greatest QB of all time after that.
Gotta give J Montana more credit. When the game was more important he always rose to
the occassion.
Congrats to the new HOFers. I missed tose predictions to.
I don't thing anyone here posted all 7 right. >>
always is a trap word.
Montana's Career Playoff Record was 16-7. Yes he was 4-0 in the SB. But all playoff games are important as there isn't next week if you lose.
Bart Starr was 9-1 in the playoffs. Yes not as many games but for the first 3 trips to the Playoffs it was just the NFL Championship game. His lone loss was his first playoff game to the Eagles in a game they came up just a few yards and seconds short of winning. He never lost again in the Playoffs.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Congrats to all of the players.
My much too early predictions for next year:
Junior Seau
Kurt Warner
Marvin Harrison
Will Shields
Charles Haley
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
You forgot the 2 senior picks.
lets have your top 5
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Jason
You forgot the 2 senior picks.
lets have your top 5 >>
Here are my top 5 Seniors for next year...I don't think they will select both OL's, but rather one of the OLs and then one of the defensive players.
MICK TINGELHOFF
BOB KUECHENBERG
MIKE CURTIS
EDDIE MEADOR
CHUCK HOWLEY
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Never too early to look over next years class...
My much too early predictions for next year:
Junior Seau
Kurt Warner
Marvin Harrison
Will Shields
Charles Haley >>
+1
<< <i>Here are my top 5 Seniors for next year...I don't think they will select both OL's, but rather one of the OLs and then one of the defensive players.
MICK TINGELHOFF
BOB KUECHENBERG
MIKE CURTIS
EDDIE MEADOR
CHUCK HOWLEY >>
Jason, are your Senior picks based on any chatter you've heard, or are they best guesses?
<< <i>
<< <i>Never too early to look over next years class...
My much too early predictions for next year:
Junior Seau
Kurt Warner
Marvin Harrison
Will Shields
Charles Haley >>
+1
<< <i>Here are my top 5 Seniors for next year...I don't think they will select both OL's, but rather one of the OLs and then one of the defensive players.
MICK TINGELHOFF
BOB KUECHENBERG
MIKE CURTIS
EDDIE MEADOR
CHUCK HOWLEY >>
Jason, are your Senior picks based on any chatter you've heard, or are they best guesses? >>
Both. Took the chatter and votes from the last senior selections in August and applied hem logically base on how the committee typically operates and which 5 voters are scheduled to be in Canton next August. Curtis and Meador personally aren't in my top 10 but each got quite a bit of support last year. Surprisingly so to me after hearing about it.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Al Wistert
Alex Karras
Bob Kuechenberg
Chuck Howley
Cliff Branch
Cliff Harris
Dick Stanfel (hasn't been in the final 15 since being rejected as a finalist)
Eddie Meador
Jerry Kramer
Johnny Robinson
Ken Riley
Lavvie Dilweg
LC Greenwood
Maxie Baughan
Mick Tinglehoff
Mike Curtis
Roger Brown
Tommy Nobis
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here is my prediction for next years HOF inductees and reasons why:
1. Junior Seau----No Brainer
2. Kurt Warner---No Brainer II
3. Orlando Pace--No Brainer III
4. Charles Haley--It is time for Haley. I sort of understand the snub. He was a total tool when I watch him in Dallas and though a preeminent pass rusher his sack total (100.5) pales in comparison to others. I think he is about 30th all time in sacks. But he was a frightening man to play against and the only holder of 5 SB rings.
5. Tim Brown----The WR log jam continues to erode. I know some will say no way he gets in before Harrison but I think their stats are pretty close and Brown was a more versatile player. I know Brown has some skeletons rattling in his closet that might turn off some HOF voters but some forget that Harrison does too.
Seniors are a hard bunch to chose from and think their induction debates are probably more heated than the non-seniors But my two for 2015 are listed below, my reasons just because
1. Chuck Howley
2. Randy Gradishar
cards or no cards I hope people contribute.
More voices more opinions the better......as long as u agree with me !!!!!!!!!!!! lol
10 different people could give 10 different senior picks
Kramer to me is the most odvious snub.
I have always liked Tingelhoff he gets no respect...the Rodney Dangerfield of football.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Welome back Dave.
cards or no cards I hope people contribute.
More voices more opinions the better......as long as u agree with me !!!!!!!!!!!! lol
10 different people could give 10 different senior picks
Kramer to me is the most odvious snub.
I have always liked Tingelhoff he gets no respect...the Rodney Dangerfield of football. >>
Really is Jay. Their process is conducive to hrs by sending a different group of 5 seniors to choose the 2 finalists from the top 15 each year. Really could be anyone. Curley Culp for example. Hadnt been in the top 15 seniors prior to last year. Then boom he gets the pick over others who seemingly had more support. It's basically because there are still 2 camps of thought amongst the 9 members Of the senior committee.
I like the odds of Kuech, Tingelhoff, maybe even Kramer or Wistert getting in. They've cleared a bit of the defensive backlog and there haven't been any strongly supported skill position players up. All of these guys have valid reasons for induction while also having valid reasons they shouldn't be in. Truly all are borderline guys but yet many are deserving. Tingelhoff gets killed by his Super Bowl performances which have led to him being considered average vs. high level competition and defensive lineman. It's probably a bit unfair a he was one of the best regular season players of his day. But the voters look at some of the manhandling she got in the Super Bowl and go with a different guy. Kuech and Kramer have to overcome playing beside better players at a weak position of OG. Wistert just needs someone to educate the other voters well enough to put him over.
Always an interesting thing to watch at least. Lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.