I know we discussed Reggie Wayne, but I don't remember Peterson or Rodgers coming up in discussion for addition to the set. Both players are under 100 games, which I thought was a near pre-requisite for addition. Would like to hear other's opinions. Personally, I think both are being added too early. I know both are very good players, but what if they both suffered career ending injuries this week....are they still hall worthy?
As a point of reference, Patrick Willis and Joe Thomas, who are both more decorated than both Peterson or Rodgers, were voted as a no adds last year. Mainly because they were under 100 games played. I'm really struggling with the thought process with these two.
I could have missed it, but I don't remember getting an e-mail from PSA on those additions. I agree that it was a wee bit premature to add Rodgers and Peterson to the set. See Kurt Warner as a cautionary tale.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I'm also not a big fan of adding Steven Jackson to the All-Time Rushers set. I voted against all 3 candidates for the set. While I think Jackson has been very good on mostly very bad teams, I think he is a tier below all-time great status. I'd place Shaun Alexander ahead of him, and I don't think he belongs in the set either..
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I know we discussed Reggie Wayne, but I don't remember Peterson or Rodgers coming up in discussion for addition to the set. Both players are under 100 games, which I thought was a near pre-requisite for addition. Would like to hear other's opinions. Personally, I think both are being added too early. I know both are very good players, but what if they both suffered career ending injuries this week....are they still hall worthy? >>
I took the vote totals but I did not send any nominations and I believe you handled Wayne so I am not sure who suggested the other possible candidates for the Future HOF Set.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>I know we discussed Reggie Wayne, but I don't remember Peterson or Rodgers coming up in discussion for addition to the set. Both players are under 100 games, which I thought was a near pre-requisite for addition. Would like to hear other's opinions. Personally, I think both are being added too early. I know both are very good players, but what if they both suffered career ending injuries this week....are they still hall worthy? >>
I took the vote totals but I did not send any nominations and I believe you handled Wayne so I am not sure who suggested the other possible candidates for the Future HOF Set. >>
The 100 games was self-policing...Just like all the other nuances of the set (under /999, no auto cards, etc)...PSA doesnt track these rules at all..Its up to the set collectors to police it with proper votes. Unfortunately, we've been getting bad votes from a few years now in many of the key card sets. The more old timers who leave the set (like me) combined with the number of new collectors who either dont know our "rules" or dont agree with them, its only going to get worse...Eventually, there will be none. Youll have the 1981 KMart auto card #d to 400 added for aguy with 2 pro bowls..lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I did request the Wayne, as that was the only one deemed worthy through our voting. No idea where Peterson and Rodgers came from. >>
Anyone who collects the set can request an add at any time. You could see a poll tomorrow requesting the addition of Andrew Luck...PSA isn't policing it nor do they have any idea who is worthy or what gets voted on here. They send out the poll, whatever gets the votes gets added.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I was under the impression some of the 'rules' Jason mentioned were PSA rules. I have lived by them.
I voted no to the guys under 100 games also.
Steven Jackson: 9 years 3 pro bowls (no 1st team AP) no rushing titles...
Ya kiddin me. >>
I tried years back to get them in writing...PSA never would make any of them official..They even deleted the ONE rule that we did have on the Registry website for a spell,which was the no autograph, parallel or non-mainstream cards allowed in the HOF or Key Card sets...
I was told (and this is from memory not a direct quote) that the Registry crew was not going to be in the business of holding back additions or putting roadblocks towards additions. That whatever the vote was is what the majority wanted and would be added...I sold off and left the set not longer after...Because we were already reaching the point where the original collectors who discussed and formulated many of the HOF and Key Card sets through discussions here were either gone, or definitely way out numbered...With many of the new collectors being much more "inclusive" when it came to the HOF and Key Card sets specifically...With ZERO rules in place, there was going to be no saving most of the sets...And by saving I mean keeping them as they were meant to be when initially added to the Registry...
Unfortunate, but IMO its going to keep getting worse...These forums and threads are simply not used as often or by as many of the HOF RC collectors as they used to be. So it ends up being a very small group who discusses things here, while the majority just vote to add cards they like or already have with no regards to worthiness of the player.
I wish you guys here who want whats best of the set(s) the best. I do still vote on the additions and voted no to all except Reggie Wayne on this recent vote. I think the average fan isnt aware that Gale Sayers is the ONLY PLAYER who retired after 1960 and who is in the HOF with less than 100 games played...No QB with less than 131 games (Roger Staubach)...Yet Aaron Rodgers is on the set after 91...3 Pro Bowls, 1 Super Bowl..lol...
It's become a farce...Sad really.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I don't remember receiving a notice to vote on the all-time rushing set. I agree with Jasp though. New guys are starting the set and requesting any BS card of their favorite player and getting enough noobs to vote. Some of the "gentlemen' agreements us older participants had for the set have been thrown out the window. I'm sure we'll be getting Knowshon Moreno requests as soon as he has a 3 TD game.
Brooks Haley A. Williams Harrison Shields Humphrey Guy
Near misses: Strahan Jones Bettis Greene Reed
There's usually at least one surprise selection, which I think adds to the excitement of the HOF announcement. Looking forward to it!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Derrick Brooks Walter Jones Michael Strahan Andre Reed Jerome Bettis Ray Guy Claude Humphrey
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
In lieu of the recent addtions to the Future HOFer set (Rodgers and Peterson) and the ever increasing possibility that "gimmicky" cards (autographed, patch/jersey cards, #'s to under 1,000, refractors, etc), I am going to request 2 additions to the futures set that we have discussed in the past. With new collectors coming in being primariy offensive minded, the inclusion of true HOF worthy talent at all postions will be over looked. I know I may be living a pipe dream that the set will sustain it's integrity, but I am going to do my best and try. Here are my nominations and we have covered them before:
Patrick Willis, LB, SF 49ers - 6 time Pro Bowl, 6 time first team All Pro, 2007 Defensive ROY, 101+ games played. Considered 1 of the top 5 defensive players in the league. This guy is a beast and I don't even care for the 49ers. Card issue - 2007 Topps Chrome #TC 240
Joe Thomas, OLT, Cleveland Browns - 6 time Pro Bowl, 3 time first team All Pro, 2 time second team All Pro, 107 games played. Has started every game of his career. Not the most glamorous position, but when teams come knocking to acquire you, even when your contract is for $84M/7 years with $44M guaranteed, you know he's good. Came in 2nd to A. Peterson in 2007 ROY voting. Card issue - 2007 Topps Chrome # TC 264
These are the only two I feel, at this time, are worthy of nomination and inclusion that have a legit shot of post career enshrinement. Thoughts?
I don't participate in the Future HOF RC's set, but I agree with Greedo. Those two guys need 2-4 years at their current production and should than be worthy.
In lieu of the recent addtions to the Future HOFer set (Rodgers and Peterson) and the ever increasing possibility that "gimmicky" cards (autographed, patch/jersey cards, #'s to under 1,000, refractors, etc), I am going to request 2 additions to the futures set that we have discussed in the past. With new collectors coming in being primariy offensive minded, the inclusion of true HOF worthy talent at all postions will be over looked. I know I may be living a pipe dream that the set will sustain it's integrity, but I am going to do my best and try. Here are my nominations and we have covered them before:
Patrick Willis, LB, SF 49ers - 6 time Pro Bowl, 6 time first team All Pro, 2007 Defensive ROY, 101+ games played. Considered 1 of the top 5 defensive players in the league. This guy is a beast and I don't even care for the 49ers. Card issue - 2007 Topps Chrome #TC 240
Joe Thomas, OLT, Cleveland Browns - 6 time Pro Bowl, 3 time first team All Pro, 2 time second team All Pro, 107 games played. Has started every game of his career. Not the most glamorous position, but when teams come knocking to acquire you, even when your contract is for $84M/7 years with $44M guaranteed, you know he's good. Came in 2nd to A. Peterson in 2007 ROY voting. Card issue - 2007 Topps Chrome # TC 264
These are the only two I feel, at this time, are worthy of nomination and inclusion that have a legit shot of post career enshrinement. Thoughts? >>
I would vote no on both...Each of them are certainly headed that direction, but adding MORE non-HOF locks to the set isnt the answer IMO. Thats the problem. 2 wrongs dont fix it.
If they guy isn't at a minimum 75% shot at induction, they shouldnt be on the set. Already 5-6 if not more who are never getting in..So why not be a little more exclusive with the vote you control and only add guys who are at least close to being LOCKS.
Just my opinion, Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I respect your opinion probably the most on here. Who would you consider "locks" in the current crop of players that we see on Sunday, today? I would vote to remove several of the players on the set right now if I knew it had support. Starting with the 2 most recently added, along with some kickers, safeties and a receiver or two.
I would vote yes to both players. Each has been regarded as the best at their positions for a while now.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
The one thing I like about the Modern HOF wanna be set is WE get to dictate the card that will be added to the HOF Rookie Set. Getting in ahead of the game a bit would not be that bad because of the gimmick cards.
<< <i>I would vote no on both...Each of them are certainly headed that direction, but adding MORE non-HOF locks to the set isnt the answer IMO. Thats the problem. 2 wrongs dont fix it.
If they guy isn't at a minimum 75% shot at induction, they shouldnt be on the set. Already 5-6 if not more who are never getting in..So why not be a little more exclusive with the vote you control and only add guys who are at least close to being LOCKS. >>
+1
I think Willis currently has a leg up on Thomas in terms of HOF worthiness, but I agree with Jason and Frank that they both need 2-4 more elite years before we add them to the set. I'd rather be more exclusive than inclusive, which means adding no-brainer types only. I think the unwritten 10 years in the league before being eligible for the set rule should come back into play.
<< <i>The one thing I like about the Modern HOF wanna be set is WE get to dictate the card that will be added to the HOF Rookie Set. >>
Totally agree. I'm not into the gimmicky cards at all, so we must stand strong against them!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I respect your opinion probably the most on here. Who would you consider "locks" in the current crop of players that we see on Sunday, today? I would vote to remove several of the players on the set right now if I knew it had support. Starting with the 2 most recently added, along with some kickers, safeties and a receiver or two. >>
My original idea for the set was that if any player went 5 years as a HOF candidate without making the top 25, they should be looked at for removal. I've submitted for a few to be removed via vote, but none ever got the vote.
For me, i would remove:
Gary Anderson- Has been HOF eligible for 5 years, hasn't made the top 25 Leroy Butler- Has been HOF eligible for 8 years, hasn't made the top 25 Jimmy Smith- Has been HOF eligible for 4 years, hasn't made the top 25...Would give him one more year, he doesnt at least make semifinalists for class of 2015, he should be removed.
Active players who were added too soon: Aaron Rodgers Adrian Peterson
Others on the set I don't think have much if any of a shot to get in (Just my opinion) Jason Elam Ruben Brown Torry Holt
Active players who I consider "locks"(again, just my opinion/rankings) Peyton Manning Tom Brady Tony Gonzalez Champ Bailey Drew Brees Charles Woodson Troy Polamalu Ed Reed
A few others are close and debatable, but for me, these are the only true "locks" at the moment.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I agree with everything you said Jason except with T. Holt. I don't think he is a lock, but still think he has a strong shot at the Hall. >>
Yeah, I'm a Holt fan too. Just don't think he will get in before Isaac Bruce, and Bruce is likely looking at a long wait. They both should be first time eligible next year, which assuredly either one or both Andre Reed/Marvin Harrison will still be on the board, as well as Tim Brown. 2016 you got T.O. eligible..2017 Hines Ward, 2018 Randy Moss..Reggie Wayne somewhere in the 2019-2021 range most likely...
With the way the committee has handled the new era WR's, its a a tough road for Holt. In many other scenarios I would agree with you, as I think he certainly played on a HOF level. But unfortunately, I dont see him getting a ton of support.
Most surprising this year was Zach Thomas...Five 1st team all-pro selections at MLB and doesn't make the top 25? Steve Wiesniewski goes ahead of him? Don't understand that one.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
With the way the committee has handled the new era WR's, its a a tough road for Holt. In many other scenarios I would agree with you, as I think he certainly played on a HOF level. But unfortunately, I dont see him getting a ton of support.
Have to agree with you. The bar has been raised for the Wr's of the 90's. Especially with the way the new crop (C. Johnson, A. Johnson et al) have been producing.
I always liked Z. Thomas, but I don't think he ever got the respect he deserved. Sad to see that's carried over into retirement.
I always liked Z. Thomas, but I don't think he ever got the respect he deserved. Sad to see that's carried over into retirement. >>
Here is your list of players eligible for the HOF with 5 or more 1st Team All-Pro selections.
Modern Candidates: Derrick Brooks (will likely be first ballot this year) Zach Thomas
...Short list, no?
Senior Candidates: Lavvie Dilweg Jim Tyrer Johnny Robinson Ox Emerson Riley Matheson Jimmy Patton Del Shofner Larry Grantham Chuck Howley
Thats in....In NFL History...Other than some current players who aren't yet eligible.
On the flip side, there are 76 current HOFers with 5+....Not to say Zach Thomas was 1st ballot by any means...But to say he isn't one of the top 25 candidates eligible? To me its crazy.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Unfortunately Jason, you and I don't have a vote. Yes, Z. Thomas may not be a first time lock, but his name should be part of the conversation. That's why I referred to him not getting any respect.
I think the 3 players listed from the 20's and 30's are long forgotten. They have been grabbing players from the 60's and 70's for the senior nominees. I think both get in this year. Someone on these boards is gonna be very happy
Do Lawie, riley, and ox even have cards?
It could be worse...hockey doesn't have a senior category. If you miss the first time you are S-O-O-L
I think P Willis is fast approaching HOF status. No harm in waiting though.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>I think the 3 players listed from the 20's and 30's are long forgotten. They have been grabbing players from the 60's and 70's for the senior nominees. I think both get in this year. Someone on these boards is gonna be very happy
Do Lawie, riley, and ox even have cards?
It could be worse...hockey doesn't have a senior category. If you miss the first time you are S-O-O-L
I think P Willis is fast approaching HOF status. No harm in waiting though. >>
Jay, a couple of the senior committee voters changed a couple years back. It's a slightly younger group of 9 senior committee voters now...To my knowledge, no those players do not have cards. At least not mainstream cards from sets.
Agreed on Willis. IMO, he's to closest active player to being worthy for addition to the futures set. Still only in his 7th year though...Would like to see him get to 9 or 10 to increase his odds. Really doesn't even have to play at his typical All-Pro levels the next few either..Just pad the resume with more games and years. LBs tend to need that longevity. In the modern era, unless your name is Dick Butkus, you need at least 10 years and 150 games...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
You have exemplified my point. The younger the crowd gets the more we tend to forget the distant past. You mentioned dick Butkus. I have briefly met him and shook hands. (back then still looks like a fire hydrant on wheels). If someone asks who is the best linbacker all time ( or even MLB) I would say Butkus. I missed most of his carear. Have seen many NFL clips but most of my opinion has been entrenched by repeated opinions of other people. Who's around that has seen Ox play? I'll be honest I had to look him up. So what are his realistic chances of the HOF. The few that know him can't say he's the best I ever saw.
Ray Guy on the other hand I saw his entire carear. He was far more than a punter who could kick the ball 2 miles high. He could run if he had to...and this kept the defense a little more honest He could get that 1st down on a bad snap in an era of non perfected long snaps. Look at the games today. Snapper can put the ball on the punter's chest nearly every time. Guy was fielding grounders and jumping to get the snap. Many a time I saw him play QB. The raiders at that time didn't need an extra player for a 3rd QB and could still win with Guy in for a few plays. He's no starter by any means...but he did have to know the plays. He was so much more than a punter and a big reason the Raiders were so successfull with him Roby could kick em just as high Lechler can kick a tad further Sammy Baugh was a better athlete In the history of professional FB.....if you had to choose one player for that all time team...I'ts Ray Guy
I can say that because I saw that.
OK my yearly rant about Ray Guy is over. Please put him in and give us Raiders fans something to be happy about.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
You have exemplified my point. The younger the crowd gets the more we tend to forget the distant past. You mentioned dick Butkus. I have briefly met him and shook hands. (back then still looks like a fire hydrant on wheels). If someone asks who is the best linbacker all time ( or even MLB) I would say Butkus. I missed most of his carear. Have seen many NFL clips but most of my opinion has been entrenched by repeated opinions of other people. Who's around that has seen Ox play? I'll be honest I had to look him up. So what are his realistic chances of the HOF. The few that know him can't say he's the best I ever saw.
Ray Guy on the other hand I saw his entire carear. He was far more than a punter who could kick the ball 2 miles high. He could run if he had to...and this kept the defense a little more honest He could get that 1st down on a bad snap in an era of non perfected long snaps. Look at the games today. Snapper can put the ball on the punter's chest nearly every time. Guy was fielding grounders and jumping to get the snap. Many a time I saw him play QB. The raiders at that time didn't need an extra player for a 3rd QB and could still win with Guy in for a few plays. He's no starter by any means...but he did have to know the plays. He was so much more than a punter and a big reason the Raiders were so successfull with him Roby could kick em just as high Lechler can kick a tad further Sammy Baugh was a better athlete In the history of professional FB.....if you had to choose one player for that all time team...I'ts Ray Guy
I can say that because I saw that.
OK my yearly rant about Ray Guy is over. Please put him in and give us Raiders fans something to be happy about. >>
The chances of most of the Senior guys I listed are around 0% for various reasons...
I think the majority of voters still don't think a Punter deserves induction, particularly giving him a spot over players at other positions. Well, this year the senior committee ensures Ray Guy's vote will not have any effect on another players spot. If he doesn't get in, it won't give a spot to another player. He's either in, or the spot is wasted. Humphrey, the other senior candidate, was voted down as a senior nominee just a few years ago. So it would seem the 5 senior committee members who went to Canton in August to select the 2 nominees had an agenda. Would be pretty sad to have a year with no senior nominees when you have so many worthy options...But it would seem to me, we are either going to get both Humphrey and Guy in, or neither this year. Hard to say what the "common" voter in the HOF meeting will do. I will personally be in NY at the meetings this year...Not in the room of course, but will most certainly look forward to discussing the finer points with the 2-3 voters I am have known for many years prior to the meeting. Not to say I have any sway in it AT ALL, but will at least be able to get a feel as to the how and why of who is going to get a serious push...The voting is secret, and there have been cases where it seemed verbally everyone was in agreement on a player, only to see the player miss the required 80% vote out of nowhere...So sometimes even the voters don't know...
The 2 seniors will be interesting...Its a good sized "anti-Punter" group, and they are going to need to sway 4-5 of them in the same way that they needed 4-5 swayed to put Monk in after his annual battle. But I cant see a valid argument for keeping Guy out, that doesnt also apply to Humphrey. So, there is a small chance that the rest of the voters pushback against the senior committee faction and dont give either the votes needed...In which case, we may again see a shift of power within the senior committee the same way we did a few years back.
If both get denied, I'm hoping they revamp the entire Senior process towards something different. To me, the current system has done nothing but create a new school vs old school that has led to poor selections (and to be honest, I didnt like Guy or Humphrey picks). and infighting/bad blood amongst the voters...
Will see what happens...I'm very much looking forward to the announcements and getting to be there live. Will be parlaying that into a trip to next years induction ceremony in August.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree with the senior committe having an agenda. Neither of the 2 will ever get another chance. FB needs to do what the baseball veterans comm did....revamp it and place hofers and players who know the game in the seats. Baseball will be asking a similar question: Does a designated hitter belong in the hall vs a guy that playes defense also.
Either way HOF announcements are an exciting day for me.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>I agree with the senior committe having an agenda. Neither of the 2 will ever get another chance. FB needs to do what the baseball veterans comm did....revamp it and place hofers and players who know the game in the seats. Baseball will be asking a similar question: Does a designated hitter belong in the hall vs a guy that playes defense also.
Either way HOF announcements are an exciting day for me. >>
Exactly right Jay...I assumed we wouldn't see Humphrey again after getting turned back as a senior nominee a few years back...But apparently some of the senior committee was still butt hurt over it, so here he is again, ala Bob Hayes..Not that he isn't deserving, but he's definitely borderline and I could name 5+ guys in 10 seconds from the senior pool who are more deserving..And that includes other DE's...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I decided to close my HOF RC Set a few weeks ago tour pursue other vintage football items and sets. I figured I would offer a few of the higher end cards here to give someone a chance to acquire a lot of the tougher cards in one fell swoop. Most of these cards are the older flips and have not been reviewed, have been I'm my collection coming up on a decade. I got quite a few of them from Marc Dubins, Pete Fletcher and Jay Groat, our boys!
Cards and prices, payment via PayPal, delivered. PM me if you have any questions
I imagine in this thread the following six players are mentioned. I just happen to think they deserve a serious look at the HOF:
Cliff Branch Ray Guy Drew Pearson Robert Brazile Isiah Robertson Randy Gradishar
I'm still lost on how Gradishar has not made it yet. Brazile was the beta version of LT. Guy is maybe the greatest punter ever, and could actually be a game changer. Cliff Branch was the prototypical Al Davis WR. Throw it vertically and he's catching it. Isiah Robertson was underrated with the Rams. Pearson was a big play, big game WR for the Cowboys.
<< <i>I imagine in this thread the following six players are mentioned. I just happen to think they deserve a serious look at the HOF:
Cliff Branch Ray Guy Drew Pearson Robert Brazile Isiah Robertson Randy Gradishar
I'm still lost on how Gradishar has not made it yet. Brazile was the beta version of LT. Guy is maybe the greatest punter ever, and could actually be a game changer. Cliff Branch was the prototypical Al Davis WR. Throw it vertically and he's catching it. Isiah Robertson was underrated with the Rams. Pearson was a big play, big game WR for the Cowboys. >>
All viable Senior Candidates....Guy is up this year and most likely will get in.
For the other WRs and LBs you listed, here are my personal rankings of the senior candidates at those positions...
1-LAVIE DILWEG (6 time 1st Team All-Pro) 2-CLIFF BRANCH 3-OTIS TAYLOR 4-MAC SPEEDIE 5-BILLY WILSON 6-DEL SHOFNER 7-DREW PEARSON
1-CHUCK HOWLEY (5 time 1st Team All-Pro & Super Bowl MVP) 2-TOMMY NOBIS 3-MIKE CURTIS 4-MAXIE BAUGHAN 5-RANDY GRADISHAR 6-LEE ROY JORDAN 7-ROBERT BRAZILE 8-JOE FORTUNADO 9-ANDY RUSSELL 10-ISIAH ROBERTSON
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
With the Pro Bowl roster and the All Pro list out I thought I would list a few who were rather accomplished.
Joe Thomas 7 Pro Bowls and 4 x All Pro (2nd team 2008 & 2012) Patrick Willis 7 Pro Bowls and 5 x All Pro (2nd team 2008) Andre Johnson 7 Pro Bowls and 2 x All Pro (2nd team 2006 & 2012 Justin Smith 5 Pro Bowls and 1 x All Pro (2nd team 2012 & 2013) Haloti Ngata 5 Pro Bowls and 2 x All Pro (2nd team 2008 & 2009) Darrelle Revis 5 Pro Bowls and 3 x All Pro Logan Mankins 6 Pro Bowls and 1 x All Pro (2nd team 2007, 2009, 2011, 2012) Calvin Johnson 4 Pro Bowls and 3 x All Pro (2nd team 2010) Jahri Evans 5 Pro Bowls and 4 x All Pro (2nd team 2013) Terrell Suggs 6 Pro Bowls and 1 x All Pro (2nd team 2008)
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>Good call on Howley and Nobis. 2 more oversights. >>
I still have no idea why Howley isn't in the HOF. Too be honest there really wasn't anything else he could of accomplished in his career.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
While Peterson may have been a bit premature, IMO he would have been voted in for the Future set this offseason - 10K yards in his first 7 years (plus the single game rushing record and the 2nd place season total, in addition to the Pro Bowls and All-Pro selections - another Pro Bowl and a 2nd team All Pro this year) would probably get him HOF status even if he never played again.
Joe Thomas 7 Pro Bowls and 4 x All Pro (2nd team 2008 & 2012)---Still hasn't played 100 games. Fewest by a modern era HOF OL is Dwight Stephenson with 114. I think he needs one more year and then he's in. Patrick Willis 7 Pro Bowls and 5 x All Pro (2nd team 2008)--Super Bowl ring would have locked him in...Somewhat an off year this year, but probably a HOF candidate even if he retired today. Andre Johnson 7 Pro Bowls and 2 x All Pro (2nd team 2006 & 2012...900+ receptions and 12,000 yards get in now? Without a ring or signature play? I think hes close but needs to continue padding and get well ahead of say Holt and Bruce's numbers as they have rings..Only so many WRs getting in fellas.. Justin Smith 5 Pro Bowls and 1 x All Pro (2nd team 2012 & 2013)...Good player, but not close to HOF caliber. Haloti Ngata 5 Pro Bowls and 2 x All Pro (2nd team 2008 & 2009)...Hasn't been an All-Pro since 2011...If he continues to fade, I dont see him getting in. Ring certainly helps his case, but dont think he'd get in today. Darrelle Revis 5 Pro Bowls and 3 x All Pro....95 game career, he needs another year or 2..Nice to see him back after the injury though, if he can stay healthy, eventually he can get there. Logan Mankins 6 Pro Bowls and 1 x All Pro (2nd team 2007, 2009, 2011, 2012)...OG's are tough...Closest comparisons, Russ Grimm and Joe DeLam...I don't see Mankins on that level. Not with 1 All-Pro. Calvin Johnson 4 Pro Bowls and 3 x All Pro (2nd team 2010)...Way Way early...Doesnt even have 10k yards yet...Looks the part, but needs to keep dominating for a few more years first. Jahri Evans 5 Pro Bowls and 4 x All Pro (2nd team 2013)...See Mankins...I put Jahri ahead of Mankins, also has a ring...But for me, a little early to call him a HOFer Terrell Suggs 6 Pro Bowls and 1 x All Pro (2nd team 2008)..T Sizzle is probably pretty close...Obviously well behind Ray Ray and Ed Reed, and probably needs 100+ sacks first...Maybe one year away?
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>What are the thoughts on Wisniewski, Jacoby and Mecklenburg since neither are on the modern future HOFers set? >>
Making the semifinals hasn't proven to mean too much when it comes to making the HOF...Quite a few players have been semifinalists who aren't on the set and who haven't made the top 15.
Steve Tasker has made it 6 times to the top 25, but doesn't seem to be any closer to induction Joe Jacoby has made it 4 Mecklenberg has made it 3 times Steve Wiesniewski, Clay Matthews, and Albert Lewis have all made it once
Now if any of these ever get into the top 15, be something to really consider...Short of that, its hard to call them likely or definite HOFers..Which is supposed to be the prerequisite for inclusion on the set.
Jason
EDITED TO ADD: Top 15 will be announced on Thursday I believe...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Joe Thomas has established himself as the best LT in the game. Over the course of his 7 year career he has been voted to the Pro Bowl every year and has been named 1st team or 2nd team All Pro 6 times. In regards to individual player accomplishments he shown himself to be the best (or at worst top 2) at his position for nearly a decade.
Justin Smith was a good 4-3 End but has blossomed in the 49'ers 3-4 to the point where he is considered one of the top two 3-4 Ends in the game. In 2011 he was a strong candidate for DPOY when he was named All Pro at End and Tackle. At a position where it is hard to stand out he has established himself as a dominant run defender and a player who can pressure the QB or draw attention from other blockers to allow his teammates to make plays. While he lacks the rings or accolades of a Richard Seymour (who benefitted from playing on a consistent winning team) he has far more sacks and has been consistent force on the DL since he entered the league.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>Joe Thomas has established himself as the best LT in the game. Over the course of his 7 year career he has been voted to the Pro Bowl every year and has been named 1st team or 2nd team All Pro 6 times. In regards to individual player accomplishments he shown himself to be the best (or at worst top 2) at his position for nearly a decade.
Justin Smith was a good 4-3 End but has blossomed in the 49'ers 3-4 to the point where he is considered one of the top two 3-4 Ends in the game. In 2011 he was a strong candidate for DPOY when he was named All Pro at End and Tackle. At a position where it is hard to stand out he has established himself as a dominant run defender and a player who can pressure the QB or draw attention from other blockers to allow his teammates to make plays. While he lacks the rings or accolades of a Richard Seymour (who benefitted from playing on a consistent winning team) he has far more sacks and has been consistent force on the DL since he entered the league. >>
Don't disagree on Thomas...I think he's well on his way...But with less than 100 career games, if he never played again, I don't think he's getting in. Tony Boselli had a similar short term dominant run, and was also considered the best (or at worst top 2) OT during his career and he doesnt get a sniff...Longevity tends to be very important feature for OL's making the HOF...
Saying he's a top two 3-4 end isnt saying much...There are fewer of them in the league than there are 4-3 ends. Much of the time, a 3-4 end plays the role of a DT, when the defense brings one of the OLBs in pass rush off the end. When it comes to HOF consideration, he's going to be compared to both DE's and DT's, just like Seymour will be (excellent comparison BTW). Another would be Bryant Young, who played both DT and 3-4 end during his career. Young hasn't received so much as a sniff...Yet, compare their resumes...
Young-4 Pro Bowls, 1 time First Team All-Pro, 1 Super Bowl Ring, 89.5 sacks, 208 games, 2nd Team, 1990s Team of the Decade Smith- 5 Pro Bowls, 1 time First Team All-Pro, 0 Super Bowl Rings, 82 sacks, 205 games, no All-Decade selections
I see Seymour clearly above them both with the best shot due to playing a key role for a multiple championship winning team...I think Smith is closer to Young, which is very good player, but no chance at HOF.
Just my opinion of course...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
At this point in Thomas' career he has played the same number of seasons as Boselli (though Boselli appeared in fewer games due to injury). While both were equally dominant LT's I think Thomas has a slight edge and better chance than Boselli b/c he has 2 more Pro Bowls and 1 more All Pro.
I might be in the minority but I believe Young had a career that was worthy of induction to the HOF. He lacks the career accolades and awards but he was a force on the DL. Young excelled at stopping the run and generating pressure on the QB. I also think it can be argued that he was a better all around player than Sapp or Randle.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Comments
link
<< <i>I know we discussed Reggie Wayne, but I don't remember Peterson or Rodgers coming up in discussion for addition to the set. Both players are under 100 games, which I thought was a near pre-requisite for addition. Would like to hear other's opinions. Personally, I think both are being added too early. I know both are very good players, but what if they both suffered career ending injuries this week....are they still hall worthy? >>
I took the vote totals but I did not send any nominations and I believe you handled Wayne so I am not sure who suggested the other possible candidates for the Future HOF Set.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
<< <i>I know we discussed Reggie Wayne, but I don't remember Peterson or Rodgers coming up in discussion for addition to the set. Both players are under 100 games, which I thought was a near pre-requisite for addition. Would like to hear other's opinions. Personally, I think both are being added too early. I know both are very good players, but what if they both suffered career ending injuries this week....are they still hall worthy? >>
I took the vote totals but I did not send any nominations and I believe you handled Wayne so I am not sure who suggested the other possible candidates for the Future HOF Set. >>
The 100 games was self-policing...Just like all the other nuances of the set (under /999, no auto cards, etc)...PSA doesnt track these rules at all..Its up to the set collectors to police it with proper votes. Unfortunately, we've been getting bad votes from a few years now in many of the key card sets. The more old timers who leave the set (like me) combined with the number of new collectors who either dont know our "rules" or dont agree with them, its only going to get worse...Eventually, there will be none. Youll have the 1981 KMart auto card #d to 400 added for aguy with 2 pro bowls..lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I did request the Wayne, as that was the only one deemed worthy through our voting. No idea where Peterson and Rodgers came from. >>
Anyone who collects the set can request an add at any time. You could see a poll tomorrow requesting the addition of Andrew Luck...PSA isn't policing it nor do they have any idea who is worthy or what gets voted on here. They send out the poll, whatever gets the votes gets added.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I have lived by them.
I voted no to the guys under 100 games also.
Steven Jackson: 9 years 3 pro bowls (no 1st team AP) no rushing titles...
Ya kiddin me.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>I was under the impression some of the 'rules' Jason mentioned were PSA rules.
I have lived by them.
I voted no to the guys under 100 games also.
Steven Jackson: 9 years 3 pro bowls (no 1st team AP) no rushing titles...
Ya kiddin me. >>
I tried years back to get them in writing...PSA never would make any of them official..They even deleted the ONE rule that we did have on the Registry website for a spell,which was the no autograph, parallel or non-mainstream cards allowed in the HOF or Key Card sets...
I was told (and this is from memory not a direct quote) that the Registry crew was not going to be in the business of holding back additions or putting roadblocks towards additions. That whatever the vote was is what the majority wanted and would be added...I sold off and left the set not longer after...Because we were already reaching the point where the original collectors who discussed and formulated many of the HOF and Key Card sets through discussions here were either gone, or definitely way out numbered...With many of the new collectors being much more "inclusive" when it came to the HOF and Key Card sets specifically...With ZERO rules in place, there was going to be no saving most of the sets...And by saving I mean keeping them as they were meant to be when initially added to the Registry...
Unfortunate, but IMO its going to keep getting worse...These forums and threads are simply not used as often or by as many of the HOF RC collectors as they used to be. So it ends up being a very small group who discusses things here, while the majority just vote to add cards they like or already have with no regards to worthiness of the player.
I wish you guys here who want whats best of the set(s) the best. I do still vote on the additions and voted no to all except Reggie Wayne on this recent vote. I think the average fan isnt aware that Gale Sayers is the ONLY PLAYER who retired after 1960 and who is in the HOF with less than 100 games played...No QB with less than 131 games (Roger Staubach)...Yet Aaron Rodgers is on the set after 91...3 Pro Bowls, 1 Super Bowl..lol...
It's become a farce...Sad really.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Montana PSA 10
Brooks
Haley
A. Williams
Harrison
Shields
Humphrey
Guy
Near misses:
Strahan
Jones
Bettis
Greene
Reed
There's usually at least one surprise selection, which I think adds to the excitement of the HOF announcement. Looking forward to it!
Derrick Brooks
Walter Jones
Michael Strahan
Andre Reed
Jerome Bettis
Ray Guy
Claude Humphrey
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
In lieu of the recent addtions to the Future HOFer set (Rodgers and Peterson) and the ever increasing possibility that "gimmicky" cards (autographed, patch/jersey cards, #'s to under 1,000, refractors, etc), I am going to request 2 additions to the futures set that we have discussed in the past. With new collectors coming in being primariy offensive minded, the inclusion of true HOF worthy talent at all postions will be over looked. I know I may be living a pipe dream that the set will sustain it's integrity, but I am going to do my best and try. Here are my nominations and we have covered them before:
Patrick Willis, LB, SF 49ers - 6 time Pro Bowl, 6 time first team All Pro, 2007 Defensive ROY, 101+ games played. Considered 1 of the top 5 defensive players in the league. This guy is a beast and I don't even care for the 49ers. Card issue - 2007 Topps Chrome #TC 240
Joe Thomas, OLT, Cleveland Browns - 6 time Pro Bowl, 3 time first team All Pro, 2 time second team All Pro, 107 games played. Has started every game of his career. Not the most glamorous position, but when teams come knocking to acquire you, even when your contract is for $84M/7 years with $44M guaranteed, you know he's good. Came in 2nd to A. Peterson in 2007 ROY voting. Card issue - 2007 Topps Chrome # TC 264
These are the only two I feel, at this time, are worthy of nomination and inclusion that have a legit shot of post career enshrinement. Thoughts?
<< <i>Fellow collectors,
In lieu of the recent addtions to the Future HOFer set (Rodgers and Peterson) and the ever increasing possibility that "gimmicky" cards (autographed, patch/jersey cards, #'s to under 1,000, refractors, etc), I am going to request 2 additions to the futures set that we have discussed in the past. With new collectors coming in being primariy offensive minded, the inclusion of true HOF worthy talent at all postions will be over looked. I know I may be living a pipe dream that the set will sustain it's integrity, but I am going to do my best and try. Here are my nominations and we have covered them before:
Patrick Willis, LB, SF 49ers - 6 time Pro Bowl, 6 time first team All Pro, 2007 Defensive ROY, 101+ games played. Considered 1 of the top 5 defensive players in the league. This guy is a beast and I don't even care for the 49ers. Card issue - 2007 Topps Chrome #TC 240
Joe Thomas, OLT, Cleveland Browns - 6 time Pro Bowl, 3 time first team All Pro, 2 time second team All Pro, 107 games played. Has started every game of his career. Not the most glamorous position, but when teams come knocking to acquire you, even when your contract is for $84M/7 years with $44M guaranteed, you know he's good. Came in 2nd to A. Peterson in 2007 ROY voting. Card issue - 2007 Topps Chrome # TC 264
These are the only two I feel, at this time, are worthy of nomination and inclusion that have a legit shot of post career enshrinement. Thoughts? >>
I would vote no on both...Each of them are certainly headed that direction, but adding MORE non-HOF locks to the set isnt the answer IMO. Thats the problem. 2 wrongs dont fix it.
If they guy isn't at a minimum 75% shot at induction, they shouldnt be on the set. Already 5-6 if not more who are never getting in..So why not be a little more exclusive with the vote you control and only add guys who are at least close to being LOCKS.
Just my opinion,
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I respect your opinion probably the most on here. Who would you consider "locks" in the current crop of players that we see on Sunday, today? I would vote to remove several of the players on the set right now if I knew it had support. Starting with the 2 most recently added, along with some kickers, safeties and a receiver or two.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Just my opinion.
<< <i>I would vote no on both...Each of them are certainly headed that direction, but adding MORE non-HOF locks to the set isnt the answer IMO. Thats the problem. 2 wrongs dont fix it.
If they guy isn't at a minimum 75% shot at induction, they shouldnt be on the set. Already 5-6 if not more who are never getting in..So why not be a little more exclusive with the vote you control and only add guys who are at least close to being LOCKS. >>
+1
I think Willis currently has a leg up on Thomas in terms of HOF worthiness, but I agree with Jason and Frank that they both need 2-4 more elite years before we add them to the set. I'd rather be more exclusive than inclusive, which means adding no-brainer types only. I think the unwritten 10 years in the league before being eligible for the set rule should come back into play.
<< <i>The one thing I like about the Modern HOF wanna be set is WE get to dictate the card that will be added to the HOF Rookie Set. >>
Totally agree. I'm not into the gimmicky cards at all, so we must stand strong against them!
<< <i>Jason,
I respect your opinion probably the most on here. Who would you consider "locks" in the current crop of players that we see on Sunday, today? I would vote to remove several of the players on the set right now if I knew it had support. Starting with the 2 most recently added, along with some kickers, safeties and a receiver or two. >>
My original idea for the set was that if any player went 5 years as a HOF candidate without making the top 25, they should be looked at for removal. I've submitted for a few to be removed via vote, but none ever got the vote.
For me, i would remove:
Gary Anderson- Has been HOF eligible for 5 years, hasn't made the top 25
Leroy Butler- Has been HOF eligible for 8 years, hasn't made the top 25
Jimmy Smith- Has been HOF eligible for 4 years, hasn't made the top 25...Would give him one more year, he doesnt at least make semifinalists for class of 2015, he should be removed.
Active players who were added too soon:
Aaron Rodgers
Adrian Peterson
Others on the set I don't think have much if any of a shot to get in (Just my opinion)
Jason Elam
Ruben Brown
Torry Holt
Active players who I consider "locks"(again, just my opinion/rankings)
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Tony Gonzalez
Champ Bailey
Drew Brees
Charles Woodson
Troy Polamalu
Ed Reed
A few others are close and debatable, but for me, these are the only true "locks" at the moment.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I agree with everything you said Jason except with T. Holt. I don't think he is a lock, but still think he has a strong shot at the Hall. >>
Yeah, I'm a Holt fan too. Just don't think he will get in before Isaac Bruce, and Bruce is likely looking at a long wait. They both should be first time eligible next year, which assuredly either one or both Andre Reed/Marvin Harrison will still be on the board, as well as Tim Brown. 2016 you got T.O. eligible..2017 Hines Ward, 2018 Randy Moss..Reggie Wayne somewhere in the 2019-2021 range most likely...
With the way the committee has handled the new era WR's, its a a tough road for Holt. In many other scenarios I would agree with you, as I think he certainly played on a HOF level. But unfortunately, I dont see him getting a ton of support.
Most surprising this year was Zach Thomas...Five 1st team all-pro selections at MLB and doesn't make the top 25? Steve Wiesniewski goes ahead of him? Don't understand that one.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Have to agree with you. The bar has been raised for the Wr's of the 90's. Especially with the way the new crop (C. Johnson, A. Johnson et al) have been producing.
I always liked Z. Thomas, but I don't think he ever got the respect he deserved. Sad to see that's carried over into retirement.
<< <i>
I always liked Z. Thomas, but I don't think he ever got the respect he deserved. Sad to see that's carried over into retirement. >>
Here is your list of players eligible for the HOF with 5 or more 1st Team All-Pro selections.
Modern Candidates:
Derrick Brooks (will likely be first ballot this year)
Zach Thomas
...Short list, no?
Senior Candidates:
Lavvie Dilweg
Jim Tyrer
Johnny Robinson
Ox Emerson
Riley Matheson
Jimmy Patton
Del Shofner
Larry Grantham
Chuck Howley
Thats in....In NFL History...Other than some current players who aren't yet eligible.
On the flip side, there are 76 current HOFers with 5+....Not to say Zach Thomas was 1st ballot by any means...But to say he isn't one of the top 25 candidates eligible? To me its crazy.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
They have been grabbing players from the 60's and 70's for the senior nominees.
I think both get in this year. Someone on these boards is gonna be very happy
Do Lawie, riley, and ox even have cards?
It could be worse...hockey doesn't have a senior category. If you miss the first time you are S-O-O-L
I think P Willis is fast approaching HOF status. No harm in waiting though.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>I think the 3 players listed from the 20's and 30's are long forgotten.
They have been grabbing players from the 60's and 70's for the senior nominees.
I think both get in this year. Someone on these boards is gonna be very happy
Do Lawie, riley, and ox even have cards?
It could be worse...hockey doesn't have a senior category. If you miss the first time you are S-O-O-L
I think P Willis is fast approaching HOF status. No harm in waiting though. >>
Jay, a couple of the senior committee voters changed a couple years back. It's a slightly younger group of 9 senior committee voters now...To my knowledge, no those players do not have cards. At least not mainstream cards from sets.
Agreed on Willis. IMO, he's to closest active player to being worthy for addition to the futures set. Still only in his 7th year though...Would like to see him get to 9 or 10 to increase his odds. Really doesn't even have to play at his typical All-Pro levels the next few either..Just pad the resume with more games and years. LBs tend to need that longevity. In the modern era, unless your name is Dick Butkus, you need at least 10 years and 150 games...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
You have exemplified my point. The younger the crowd gets the more we tend to forget the distant past.
You mentioned dick Butkus. I have briefly met him and shook hands. (back then still looks like a fire hydrant on wheels).
If someone asks who is the best linbacker all time ( or even MLB) I would say Butkus. I missed most of his carear. Have seen
many NFL clips but most of my opinion has been entrenched by repeated opinions of other people. Who's around that has seen Ox play?
I'll be honest I had to look him up. So what are his realistic chances of the HOF. The few that know him can't say he's the best I ever saw.
Ray Guy on the other hand I saw his entire carear. He was far more than a punter who could kick the ball 2 miles high. He could run if he had to...and this kept the defense a little more honest
He could get that 1st down on a bad snap in an era of non perfected long snaps. Look at the games today. Snapper can put the ball on the punter's chest nearly every time.
Guy was fielding grounders and jumping to get the snap. Many a time I saw him play QB.
The raiders at that time didn't need an extra player for a 3rd QB and could still win with Guy in for a few plays. He's no starter by any means...but he did have to know the plays.
He was so much more than a punter and a big reason the Raiders were so successfull with him
Roby could kick em just as high
Lechler can kick a tad further
Sammy Baugh was a better athlete
In the history of professional FB.....if you had to choose one player for that all time team...I'ts Ray Guy
I can say that because I saw that.
OK my yearly rant about Ray Guy is over. Please put him in and give us Raiders fans something to be happy about.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>jason
You have exemplified my point. The younger the crowd gets the more we tend to forget the distant past.
You mentioned dick Butkus. I have briefly met him and shook hands. (back then still looks like a fire hydrant on wheels).
If someone asks who is the best linbacker all time ( or even MLB) I would say Butkus. I missed most of his carear. Have seen
many NFL clips but most of my opinion has been entrenched by repeated opinions of other people. Who's around that has seen Ox play?
I'll be honest I had to look him up. So what are his realistic chances of the HOF. The few that know him can't say he's the best I ever saw.
Ray Guy on the other hand I saw his entire carear. He was far more than a punter who could kick the ball 2 miles high. He could run if he had to...and this kept the defense a little more honest
He could get that 1st down on a bad snap in an era of non perfected long snaps. Look at the games today. Snapper can put the ball on the punter's chest nearly every time.
Guy was fielding grounders and jumping to get the snap. Many a time I saw him play QB.
The raiders at that time didn't need an extra player for a 3rd QB and could still win with Guy in for a few plays. He's no starter by any means...but he did have to know the plays.
He was so much more than a punter and a big reason the Raiders were so successfull with him
Roby could kick em just as high
Lechler can kick a tad further
Sammy Baugh was a better athlete
In the history of professional FB.....if you had to choose one player for that all time team...I'ts Ray Guy
I can say that because I saw that.
OK my yearly rant about Ray Guy is over. Please put him in and give us Raiders fans something to be happy about. >>
The chances of most of the Senior guys I listed are around 0% for various reasons...
I think the majority of voters still don't think a Punter deserves induction, particularly giving him a spot over players at other positions. Well, this year the senior committee ensures Ray Guy's vote will not have any effect on another players spot. If he doesn't get in, it won't give a spot to another player. He's either in, or the spot is wasted. Humphrey, the other senior candidate, was voted down as a senior nominee just a few years ago. So it would seem the 5 senior committee members who went to Canton in August to select the 2 nominees had an agenda. Would be pretty sad to have a year with no senior nominees when you have so many worthy options...But it would seem to me, we are either going to get both Humphrey and Guy in, or neither this year. Hard to say what the "common" voter in the HOF meeting will do. I will personally be in NY at the meetings this year...Not in the room of course, but will most certainly look forward to discussing the finer points with the 2-3 voters I am have known for many years prior to the meeting. Not to say I have any sway in it AT ALL, but will at least be able to get a feel as to the how and why of who is going to get a serious push...The voting is secret, and there have been cases where it seemed verbally everyone was in agreement on a player, only to see the player miss the required 80% vote out of nowhere...So sometimes even the voters don't know...
The 2 seniors will be interesting...Its a good sized "anti-Punter" group, and they are going to need to sway 4-5 of them in the same way that they needed 4-5 swayed to put Monk in after his annual battle. But I cant see a valid argument for keeping Guy out, that doesnt also apply to Humphrey. So, there is a small chance that the rest of the voters pushback against the senior committee faction and dont give either the votes needed...In which case, we may again see a shift of power within the senior committee the same way we did a few years back.
If both get denied, I'm hoping they revamp the entire Senior process towards something different. To me, the current system has done nothing but create a new school vs old school that has led to poor selections (and to be honest, I didnt like Guy or Humphrey picks). and infighting/bad blood amongst the voters...
Will see what happens...I'm very much looking forward to the announcements and getting to be there live. Will be parlaying that into a trip to next years induction ceremony in August.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FB needs to do what the baseball veterans comm did....revamp it and place hofers and players who know the game in the seats.
Baseball will be asking a similar question: Does a designated hitter belong in the hall vs a guy that playes defense also.
Either way HOF announcements are an exciting day for me.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>I agree with the senior committe having an agenda. Neither of the 2 will ever get another chance.
FB needs to do what the baseball veterans comm did....revamp it and place hofers and players who know the game in the seats.
Baseball will be asking a similar question: Does a designated hitter belong in the hall vs a guy that playes defense also.
Either way HOF announcements are an exciting day for me. >>
Exactly right Jay...I assumed we wouldn't see Humphrey again after getting turned back as a senior nominee a few years back...But apparently some of the senior committee was still butt hurt over it, so here he is again, ala Bob Hayes..Not that he isn't deserving, but he's definitely borderline and I could name 5+ guys in 10 seconds from the senior pool who are more deserving..And that includes other DE's...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I decided to close my HOF RC Set a few weeks ago tour pursue other vintage football items and sets. I figured I would offer a few of the higher end cards here to give someone a chance to acquire a lot of the tougher cards in one fell swoop. Most of these cards are the older flips and have not been reviewed, have been I'm my collection coming up on a decade. I got quite a few of them from Marc Dubins, Pete Fletcher and Jay Groat, our boys!
Cards and prices, payment via PayPal, delivered. PM me if you have any questions
Regards
Joe
48 Leaf Luckman PSA 7. $8000
50 Bowman Tittle PSA 8. $1000
51 Bowman Van Brocklin. PSA 8. $800
52 Bowman Large Marchetti PSA 8. $1100
54 Bowman Blanda PSA 9. $1050
55 Topps AA Hutson PSA 8. $675
56 Topps George PSA 9. $750
57 topps Starr. PSA 8. $2100
57 Toops Unitas PSA 8. $1450
57 topps Berry. PSA 8. $1200
57 topps Hornung PSA 8 $1350
57 topps checklist Bazooka PSA 7. $$3300
59 topps Huff PSA 9 $575
59 Topps Taylor PSA 9 $625
59 Topps Mitchell PSA 9 $450
60 Topps Gregg PSA 9. $750
62 Topps Ditka PSA 8. $1050
62 Topps Tarkenton PSA 8. $1200
64 Philly Mackey PSA 9. $675
65 Topps Namath PSA 8. $6000
65 Philly Krause PSA 9. $375
65 Philly Taylor PSA 9. $725
65 Philly Warfield PSA 9. $550
66 Philly Butkus PSA 8. $800
66 Philly Sayers PSA 9. $2200
67 Philly Wilcox PSA 9. $375
68 Topps Griese PSA 9. $925
69 Topps Csonka PSA 9. $1000
71 Topps Bradshaw. PSA 8. $500
76 Topps Payton PSA 9. $800
84 Topps Marino PSA 10.
Fletch
Cliff Branch
Ray Guy
Drew Pearson
Robert Brazile
Isiah Robertson
Randy Gradishar
I'm still lost on how Gradishar has not made it yet. Brazile was the beta version of LT. Guy is maybe the greatest punter ever, and could actually be a game changer. Cliff Branch was the prototypical Al Davis WR. Throw it vertically and he's catching it. Isiah Robertson was underrated with the Rams. Pearson was a big play, big game WR for the Cowboys.
<< <i>I imagine in this thread the following six players are mentioned. I just happen to think they deserve a serious look at the HOF:
Cliff Branch
Ray Guy
Drew Pearson
Robert Brazile
Isiah Robertson
Randy Gradishar
I'm still lost on how Gradishar has not made it yet. Brazile was the beta version of LT. Guy is maybe the greatest punter ever, and could actually be a game changer. Cliff Branch was the prototypical Al Davis WR. Throw it vertically and he's catching it. Isiah Robertson was underrated with the Rams. Pearson was a big play, big game WR for the Cowboys. >>
All viable Senior Candidates....Guy is up this year and most likely will get in.
For the other WRs and LBs you listed, here are my personal rankings of the senior candidates at those positions...
1-LAVIE DILWEG (6 time 1st Team All-Pro)
2-CLIFF BRANCH
3-OTIS TAYLOR
4-MAC SPEEDIE
5-BILLY WILSON
6-DEL SHOFNER
7-DREW PEARSON
1-CHUCK HOWLEY (5 time 1st Team All-Pro & Super Bowl MVP)
2-TOMMY NOBIS
3-MIKE CURTIS
4-MAXIE BAUGHAN
5-RANDY GRADISHAR
6-LEE ROY JORDAN
7-ROBERT BRAZILE
8-JOE FORTUNADO
9-ANDY RUSSELL
10-ISIAH ROBERTSON
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Joe Thomas 7 Pro Bowls and 4 x All Pro (2nd team 2008 & 2012)
Patrick Willis 7 Pro Bowls and 5 x All Pro (2nd team 2008)
Andre Johnson 7 Pro Bowls and 2 x All Pro (2nd team 2006 & 2012
Justin Smith 5 Pro Bowls and 1 x All Pro (2nd team 2012 & 2013)
Haloti Ngata 5 Pro Bowls and 2 x All Pro (2nd team 2008 & 2009)
Darrelle Revis 5 Pro Bowls and 3 x All Pro
Logan Mankins 6 Pro Bowls and 1 x All Pro (2nd team 2007, 2009, 2011, 2012)
Calvin Johnson 4 Pro Bowls and 3 x All Pro (2nd team 2010)
Jahri Evans 5 Pro Bowls and 4 x All Pro (2nd team 2013)
Terrell Suggs 6 Pro Bowls and 1 x All Pro (2nd team 2008)
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>Good call on Howley and Nobis. 2 more oversights. >>
I still have no idea why Howley isn't in the HOF. Too be honest there really wasn't anything else he could of accomplished in his career.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
whats J evans rc?
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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Joe Thomas 7 Pro Bowls and 4 x All Pro (2nd team 2008 & 2012)---Still hasn't played 100 games. Fewest by a modern era HOF OL is Dwight Stephenson with 114. I think he needs one more year and then he's in.
Patrick Willis 7 Pro Bowls and 5 x All Pro (2nd team 2008)--Super Bowl ring would have locked him in...Somewhat an off year this year, but probably a HOF candidate even if he retired today.
Andre Johnson 7 Pro Bowls and 2 x All Pro (2nd team 2006 & 2012...900+ receptions and 12,000 yards get in now? Without a ring or signature play? I think hes close but needs to continue padding and get well ahead of say Holt and Bruce's numbers as they have rings..Only so many WRs getting in fellas..
Justin Smith 5 Pro Bowls and 1 x All Pro (2nd team 2012 & 2013)...Good player, but not close to HOF caliber.
Haloti Ngata 5 Pro Bowls and 2 x All Pro (2nd team 2008 & 2009)...Hasn't been an All-Pro since 2011...If he continues to fade, I dont see him getting in. Ring certainly helps his case, but dont think he'd get in today.
Darrelle Revis 5 Pro Bowls and 3 x All Pro....95 game career, he needs another year or 2..Nice to see him back after the injury though, if he can stay healthy, eventually he can get there.
Logan Mankins 6 Pro Bowls and 1 x All Pro (2nd team 2007, 2009, 2011, 2012)...OG's are tough...Closest comparisons, Russ Grimm and Joe DeLam...I don't see Mankins on that level. Not with 1 All-Pro.
Calvin Johnson 4 Pro Bowls and 3 x All Pro (2nd team 2010)...Way Way early...Doesnt even have 10k yards yet...Looks the part, but needs to keep dominating for a few more years first.
Jahri Evans 5 Pro Bowls and 4 x All Pro (2nd team 2013)...See Mankins...I put Jahri ahead of Mankins, also has a ring...But for me, a little early to call him a HOFer
Terrell Suggs 6 Pro Bowls and 1 x All Pro (2nd team 2008)..T Sizzle is probably pretty close...Obviously well behind Ray Ray and Ed Reed, and probably needs 100+ sacks first...Maybe one year away?
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>What are the thoughts on Wisniewski, Jacoby and Mecklenburg since neither are on the modern future HOFers set? >>
Making the semifinals hasn't proven to mean too much when it comes to making the HOF...Quite a few players have been semifinalists who aren't on the set and who haven't made the top 15.
Steve Tasker has made it 6 times to the top 25, but doesn't seem to be any closer to induction
Joe Jacoby has made it 4
Mecklenberg has made it 3 times
Steve Wiesniewski, Clay Matthews, and Albert Lewis have all made it once
Now if any of these ever get into the top 15, be something to really consider...Short of that, its hard to call them likely or definite HOFers..Which is supposed to be the prerequisite for inclusion on the set.
Jason
EDITED TO ADD: Top 15 will be announced on Thursday I believe...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Justin Smith was a good 4-3 End but has blossomed in the 49'ers 3-4 to the point where he is considered one of the top two 3-4 Ends in the game. In 2011 he was a strong candidate for DPOY when he was named All Pro at End and Tackle. At a position where it is hard to stand out he has established himself as a dominant run defender and a player who can pressure the QB or draw attention from other blockers to allow his teammates to make plays. While he lacks the rings or accolades of a Richard Seymour (who benefitted from playing on a consistent winning team) he has far more sacks and has been consistent force on the DL since he entered the league.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>Joe Thomas has established himself as the best LT in the game. Over the course of his 7 year career he has been voted to the Pro Bowl every year and has been named 1st team or 2nd team All Pro 6 times. In regards to individual player accomplishments he shown himself to be the best (or at worst top 2) at his position for nearly a decade.
Justin Smith was a good 4-3 End but has blossomed in the 49'ers 3-4 to the point where he is considered one of the top two 3-4 Ends in the game. In 2011 he was a strong candidate for DPOY when he was named All Pro at End and Tackle. At a position where it is hard to stand out he has established himself as a dominant run defender and a player who can pressure the QB or draw attention from other blockers to allow his teammates to make plays. While he lacks the rings or accolades of a Richard Seymour (who benefitted from playing on a consistent winning team) he has far more sacks and has been consistent force on the DL since he entered the league. >>
Don't disagree on Thomas...I think he's well on his way...But with less than 100 career games, if he never played again, I don't think he's getting in. Tony Boselli had a similar short term dominant run, and was also considered the best (or at worst top 2) OT during his career and he doesnt get a sniff...Longevity tends to be very important feature for OL's making the HOF...
Saying he's a top two 3-4 end isnt saying much...There are fewer of them in the league than there are 4-3 ends. Much of the time, a 3-4 end plays the role of a DT, when the defense brings one of the OLBs in pass rush off the end. When it comes to HOF consideration, he's going to be compared to both DE's and DT's, just like Seymour will be (excellent comparison BTW). Another would be Bryant Young, who played both DT and 3-4 end during his career. Young hasn't received so much as a sniff...Yet, compare their resumes...
Young-4 Pro Bowls, 1 time First Team All-Pro, 1 Super Bowl Ring, 89.5 sacks, 208 games, 2nd Team, 1990s Team of the Decade
Smith- 5 Pro Bowls, 1 time First Team All-Pro, 0 Super Bowl Rings, 82 sacks, 205 games, no All-Decade selections
I see Seymour clearly above them both with the best shot due to playing a key role for a multiple championship winning team...I think Smith is closer to Young, which is very good player, but no chance at HOF.
Just my opinion of course...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I might be in the minority but I believe Young had a career that was worthy of induction to the HOF. He lacks the career accolades and awards but he was a force on the DL. Young excelled at stopping the run and generating pressure on the QB. I also think it can be argued that he was a better all around player than Sapp or Randle.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.