Ben- 80-33 regular season record. 3 Super Bowls, 2 Championships. 1 Off Rookie of Year Award. 2 Pro Bowls. 0 First Team All-Pro. 26,500 Pass yards. 165TD-100INT Eli- 69-50 regular season record. 2 Super Bowls, 2 Championships. 2 Super Bowl MVP Award. 2 Pro Bowls. 0 First Team All-Pro. 27,500 pass yards. 185TD-129INT
Expanding on these...
Ben- Playoff record 10-4. Playoff Game Winning Drives 3. Regular season 4th QTR comebacks 20, Game Winning Drives 26 Eli- Playoff record 8-3. Playoff Game Winning Drives 4. Regular season 4th QTR comebacks 20, Game Winning Drives 24
These QB's career are almost identical. How is one HOF deserving right now, but the other isn't? Doesn't it have to be both or neither? How do separate these guys?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>I'll vote for ware and allen but will hold off on Eli.........
Eli has probably 5-6 years left. It may take another 2 years of solid play for me to give him my vote. He's definatly on the fence at this point and could fall either way for me.
However, If Im conservative...........Eli with 4 more years........Approx 100 more TD's, Maybe 15K yards. Those numbers alone put him near the top. >>
So have to ask again, how exactly does Roethlisbreger belong on the set then? Eli has more yds and TDs right now....
When we voted Big Ben onto the set, the votes were: 17 to add Ben, 5 votes to not add.
Did NOT vote to add: jay0971, jradke4, FavrefFan1971, SooperDave, shaqrotn77
For those who didn't vote ben on, totally makes sense that they also wouldn't vote Eli on. I full understand and have no argument as it is a valid opinion. But for those who voted Ben on, how exactly do you NOT vote for Eli? I don't understand. Can you please explain your reasoning?
Thanks, Jason >>
I have to agree, why Big Ben but not Eli?
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Living in the heart of NY Giants country...they practice practically in my back yard at Albany State U...... I am very happy for Eli and the Giants. He has become a superb QB. He just needs a few more years.
Now HOF. To me he is dominant and the guy I want on my team.
I have a qustion to you knowledgable guys on this board. You are going into the super bowl and need a QB. Lets keep the rest of the team blank...who ya gonna choose
Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Flacco, Roma, E Manning or anyone else ? current guys P Manning hurt and out.
Can you have 4-5 HOF'ers playing at the same time?
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>Living in the heart of NY Giants country...they practice practically in my back yard at Albany State U...... I am very happy for Eli and the Giants. He has become a superb QB. He just needs a few more years.
Now HOF. To me he is dominant and the guy I want on my team.
I have a qustion to you knowledgable guys on this board. You are going into the super bowl and need a QB. Lets keep the rest of the team blank...who ya gonna choose
Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Flacco, Roma, E Manning or anyone else ? current guys P Manning hurt and out.
Can you have 4-5 HOF'ers playing at the same time? >>
I'd put Ben and Eli right behind Brady, Rodgers and Brees...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> Can you have 4-5 HOF'ers playing at the same time? >>
jay, check this craziness out...
1986 Active NFL QBs, now in the HOF- Fouts, Montana, Kelly, Elway, Young, Marino, Moon 1948-1950- Baugh, Waterfield, Van Brocklin, Luckman, Graham, Layne, Tittle
So yes, you can actually have up to 7!!!
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Ben- 80-33 regular season record. 3 Super Bowls, 2 Championships. 1 Off Rookie of Year Award. 2 Pro Bowls. 0 First Team All-Pro. 26,500 Pass yards. 165TD-100INT Eli- 69-50 regular season record. 2 Super Bowls, 2 Championships. 2 Super Bowl MVP Award. 2 Pro Bowls. 0 First Team All-Pro. 27,500 pass yards. 185TD-129INT
Expanding on these...
Ben- Playoff record 10-4. Playoff Game Winning Drives 3. Regular season 4th QTR comebacks 20, Game Winning Drives 26 Eli- Playoff record 8-3. Playoff Game Winning Drives 4. Regular season 4th QTR comebacks 20, Game Winning Drives 24
These QB's career are almost identical. How is one HOF deserving right now, but the other isn't? Doesn't it have to be both or neither? How do separate these guys?
Jason >>
I didn't vote on either, but wow I never realized how much alike Eli and Ben's career's are.
<< <i>Living in the heart of NY Giants country...they practice practically in my back yard at Albany State U...... I am very happy for Eli and the Giants. He has become a superb QB. He just needs a few more years.
Now HOF. To me he is dominant and the guy I want on my team.
I have a qustion to you knowledgable guys on this board. You are going into the super bowl and need a QB. Lets keep the rest of the team blank...who ya gonna choose
Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Flacco, Roma, E Manning or anyone else ? current guys P Manning hurt and out.
Can you have 4-5 HOF'ers playing at the same time? >>
I'm picking Aaron Rodgers for my QB in a Super Bowl against any AFC team. They don't have to play against the Giants front four.
I think for me, it is just a gut feeling whether someone "feels" like a HOFer. Numbers aren't the whole story. Giants fans have attempted to run Eli out of town a few times. Up until this month, no one had discussed Eli and the HOF in the same sentence.
Eli has never been considered a top 5 QB except for maybe this year. I think this is the first year he makes the top 5. In fact, maybe we were a little to quick to put Big Ben in the future set. With the way the league has been geared more toward the passing game and protecting the QB, all the stats are inflated.
Of course this is just my opinion......but I would like to see one more year out of him.
As far as Eli vs. Ben, I still think Bens entire body of work is better. Ben is much more physical and tough to bring down. He has 3 times the rushing yards and rushing TD in career. Ben's QB rating is 92 and Eli's is 82. To me, that is a significant difference.
As far as Eli vs. Ben, I still think Bens entire body of work is better. Ben is much more physical and tough to bring down. He has 3 times the rushing yards and rushing TD in career. Ben's QB rating is 92 and Eli's is 82. To me, that is a significant difference. >>
So 944 rushing yards. 14 rushing TDs and 92 passer rating
vs.
So 365 rushing yards. 4 rushing TDs and 82 passer rating
TRUMPS 2 Super Bowl MVPs to zero, 1,000 more passing yards and 20 more passing TDs????
Just isn't logic when the subject is HOF vs. not HOF...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
did you read my whole post or are you just fixated on the numbers? You asked for my reasoning and I gave it to you. If you dont like my opinion, thats your right.
Like I said, I'm "on the fence" with Eli right now. If Ben were up for a vote, I would be in the same boat as ELI... I just want to see another year from him. Maybe I was too quick to vote for Ben like I said. It's really splitting hairs. Yes they are very similar. I give Ben a slight edge right now.
I'm glad to see this thread getting some attention though. Has anyone picked any new cards up lately? I haven't bought a card for this set since the national last summer. Also, with this years class, it is the first time my set has dipped below 100% since 2008. I need to find a Cortez Kennedy. I may have to pick up a few raw and send them in.
Let's compare him to Big Ben who is already on the set.
Ben- 80-33 regular season record. 3 Super Bowls, 2 Championships. 1 Super Bowl MVP. 2 Pro Bowls. 0 First Team All-Pro. 26,500 Pass yards. 165TD-100INT Eli- 69-50 regular season record. 2 Super Bowls, 2 Championships. 2 Super Bowl MVP. 2 Pro Bowls. 0 First Team All-Pro. 27,500 pass yards. 185TD-129INT
Pretty comparable...
Not really IMO. When I think of big Ben he's been clutch big play QB, who has played in 3 super bowls. Always in the playoff mix. Eli has been living on the Manning name except for a kinda fluky super bowl run. Kinda not living up to expectations. Until this year when he was great all year. Right now he looks great. Wasn't big Ben voted in last year at this time after his third super bowl appearance. IMO Eli is on the fence and could be heading that way. But I'm not voting for him yet. Just one guy's opinion.
1 more vote for Ware & Allen
And for consideration Andre Johnson & Steve Smith, I'll vote for Andre
If both guys retired today, I wouldn't vote in either one for the HOF. Just my opinion of course. Their careers would be just too short for a modern day QB.
Roethlisberger has benefited from playing on the premier defensive team during his career. His passing numbers might be higher if he played for a worse team, but then he wouldn't have the team success and SB appearances. All speculation here.
Let's be honest, Eli's first four years are not that hot. He really hasn't come along to being considered a borderline elite QB until this years playoffs. He still throws too many INT's to me. He's averaged 17 INT's over the past seven years, 120 total in seven years, not counting his rookie year in the mix when he only starter half the year. His QB rating was under 80.0 his first four years too. That's an average QB at best. He's picked it up over the past four years but until he's at 100 rating with lower int's, I'd have a problem calling him a future HOF'er. Maybe team success and especially playoff wins trumps all the rest and then you can throw out the stats.
If they add some more quality years to their resume, I'd reconsider them both as being HOF worthy.
Also, neither guy has been all-pro first team at QB. To me that says a lot. When I think of great HOF level QB's, I think of Peyton Manning, Brady, and maybe Brees. That's about it right now. Rodgers may get there but he needs at least 6-8 more great years too.
Eli and Ben : they're both right in the 5th to 8th range of best QB's in Football right now.
I agree 100% with Richard and Dave. Numbers are just that. No 1st team AP is a biggie for me.
Jason you forgot the ageless wonder Blanda. His FB card says QB on it. Not kicker. Lets not forget his laser accurate rocket arm guiding that pigskin directly into the numbers on every pass he ever threw.
In Elis 1st SB win i remeber the feeling was....since he was not considered an elite QB at the time....just don't do something stupid. Throw the ball away vs getting sacked or an int....and the giants will win the game.
In only the 2nd half of this season I would say Eli really mattered and was the difference. If you can't score in 3 qtrs and need to comeback every single 4 qtr to win...that makes you great? So Tebow is amongst the greats also.
I certainly hope in 4-5 years this discussion is a no brainer and Eli has earned hof status.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
It seems highly likely that Eli will continue to have a solid career. But, if he were to have 6-7 more seasons and he was a .500 quarterback with a marginal passer rating, would he still make the Hall of Fame? In baseball there is the Mendoza line. I'll call this the Plunkett line. I'd say if he had that sort of a career, he would join Jim Plunkett in the non-HOFers. I also have a hard time rating him with Roethlisberger. Super Bowl MVP's are great. But, Super Bowl titles is the main thing. They each have two. Big Ben also has another Super Bowl appearance, plus a number of playoff seasons. His TD-Int ratio is MUCH better and his passer rating is better. And that win-loss record isn't that close either. His winning percentage is a lofty .708, while Eli's is .580. Ben has had four seasons in which he has led his team to a playoff win, and three seasons in which he has led Pittsburgh to multiple playoff wins. I like Eli a lot. Right now, he rates just a tad below Big Ben as I see it.
Add a vote for me to Ware, Allen, and Wayne. As a write in I will put down Terrell Suggs.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
well here are my humble thoughts on the debate. it seems we are focusing a lot on how Ben and Eli's TEAMS have done in the playoffs. yes as QB they should get some of the credit but not all of the credit.
just a simple food for thought. if SB wins were the only thing why is Haley still on the outside looking in. he has a decent career stat line to warrant induction in addition to the rings.
while i can understand the winner effect for Ben and Eli, I thought the HOF was more about entire career view not just championships. while both have each one two neither has yet to have been voted a top player at his position for a season. maybe a few games.
why i didnt vote for Ben before was that at the time though he had 2 SB wins he still needed more of a body of work behind "HIS" SB wins. i am not sure he has really gotten that body of work behind him yet either. while he will have a big game here and there he still has his share of stinkers. in some respects Eli falls into that same mold for me. if either can get a more consistent level of play then i would be all for either of them. Brady and Brees have shown that consistent play through their careers. Rodgers might as well but still needs to show it, the last two years he has at least displayed that it is probable for that to happen. yet both Brees and Rodgers each only have 1 SB win a piece.
unless someone can change my mind I wont be voting for Eli just like I wouldnt vote for Rodgers yet either.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
SB wins are way overrated when talking about an individual. They are a measure of the franchise.
If Rodgers, Brees or Brady went to the Cleveland Browns or the Oakland Raiders, does anyone think they would instantly become an elite team?
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Brees went to the New Orleans Saints. The 3-13 - just got ravaged by Katrina - Saints. I don't know if I'd call them elite, but in six years they have 4 playoff appearances, 3 division titles, and a Super Bowl win. I think that is a fair equivalent to going to the Browns. If not worse.
<< <i>well here are my humble thoughts on the debate. it seems we are focusing a lot on how Ben and Eli's TEAMS have done in the playoffs. yes as QB they should get some of the credit but not all of the credit.
just a simple food for thought. if SB wins were the only thing why is Haley still on the outside looking in. he has a decent career stat line to warrant induction in addition to the rings.
while i can understand the winner effect for Ben and Eli, I thought the HOF was more about entire career view not just championships. while both have each one two neither has yet to have been voted a top player at his position for a season. maybe a few games.
why i didnt vote for Ben before was that at the time though he had 2 SB wins he still needed more of a body of work behind "HIS" SB wins. i am not sure he has really gotten that body of work behind him yet either. while he will have a big game here and there he still has his share of stinkers. in some respects Eli falls into that same mold for me. if either can get a more consistent level of play then i would be all for either of them. Brady and Brees have shown that consistent play through their careers. Rodgers might as well but still needs to show it, the last two years he has at least displayed that it is probable for that to happen. yet both Brees and Rodgers each only have 1 SB win a piece.
unless someone can change my mind I wont be voting for Eli just like I wouldnt vote for Rodgers yet either. >>
Well stated. Can't really disagree with your line of thinking. It's sensible and valid argument against including Ben and Eli. I just don't understand how one guy is deserving already but the other isn't. Will Eli be the first 2 time Super Bowl MVP to not make the HOF? Apparently it's possible. Yet Ben will definitely get in with similar numbers, an equal number or Pro Bowls and title rings and two LESS Super Bowl MVPs.
I would expect an equal amount of vigor to vote for the removal of Ben from The set if the majority now thinks he is not yet a HOFer. It's why we need to be very careful in these votes to make sure we aren't jumping the gun on adding players. There is no downside to being patient and letting a players career play out until he becomes that sure thing HOF. Which is what this set is meant to be comprised of. Thers is however a downside to voting guys on too early in their careers. Because if Ben never plays another game. Is a HOFer? Would the actual HOF voters put Ben in and not Eli? Knowing the process as I do, the answer to that is absolutely not. These things should be considered prior to voting for additions.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ware: 10 Allen: 8 Manning: 3 Wayne: 2 Justin Smith: 1 London Fletcher: 1 Andre Johnson: 1 Steve Smith: 2 Suggs: 1
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>well here are my humble thoughts on the debate. it seems we are focusing a lot on how Ben and Eli's TEAMS have done in the playoffs. yes as QB they should get some of the credit but not all of the credit.
just a simple food for thought. if SB wins were the only thing why is Haley still on the outside looking in. he has a decent career stat line to warrant induction in addition to the rings.
while i can understand the winner effect for Ben and Eli, I thought the HOF was more about entire career view not just championships. while both have each one two neither has yet to have been voted a top player at his position for a season. maybe a few games.
why i didnt vote for Ben before was that at the time though he had 2 SB wins he still needed more of a body of work behind "HIS" SB wins. i am not sure he has really gotten that body of work behind him yet either. while he will have a big game here and there he still has his share of stinkers. in some respects Eli falls into that same mold for me. if either can get a more consistent level of play then i would be all for either of them. Brady and Brees have shown that consistent play through their careers. Rodgers might as well but still needs to show it, the last two years he has at least displayed that it is probable for that to happen. yet both Brees and Rodgers each only have 1 SB win a piece.
unless someone can change my mind I wont be voting for Eli just like I wouldnt vote for Rodgers yet either. >>
Well stated. Can't really disagree with your line of thinking. It's sensible and valid argument against including Ben and Eli. I just don't understand how one guy is deserving already but the other isn't. Will Eli be the first 2 time Super Bowl MVP to not make the HOF? Apparently it's possible. Yet Ben will definitely get in with similar numbers, an equal number or Pro Bowls and title rings and two LESS Super Bowl MVPs.
I would expect an equal amount of vigor to vote for the removal of Ben from The set if the majority now thinks he is not yet a HOFer. It's why we need to be very careful in these votes to make sure we aren't jumping the gun on adding players. There is no downside to being patient and letting a players career play out until he becomes that sure thing HOF. Which is what this set is meant to be comprised of. Thers is however a downside to voting guys on too early in their careers. Because if Ben never plays another game. Is a HOFer? Would the actual HOF voters put Ben in and not Eli? Knowing the process as I do, the answer to that is absolutely not. These things should be considered prior to voting for additions.
Jason >>
Great points Jason, and I believe we should look at removing Big Ben from the set.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Removal process is the same. PSA will run a vote. So your best bet is to try and get a majority vote here first so at least you know there is some level of support to be successful with it.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Any other support for removing Big Ben if Eli isn't receiving votes to get in?
I'm of the mindset that's either both or neither.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Interesting discussion and I would agree with the removal of Big Ben.
Check out this article and video at profootballtalk.com about the HOF selection process, possible changes to come and some insights into what happened behind the scenes this year.
But this comes to what I have been saying about the HOF set, the Senior and Mondern sets, and the All Time set. CURRENT PLAYERS CANNOT BE INCLUDED. The player must be retired to be included in the sets. HOF is cut and dry but the rest are debates that don't need to happen until the player retires.
But this comes to what I have been saying about the HOF set, the Senior and Mondern sets, and the All Time set. CURRENT PLAYERS CANNOT BE INCLUDED. The player must be retired to be included in the sets. HOF is cut and dry but the rest are debates that don't need to happen until the player retires. >>
I partially agree with this. But i do think active players CAN BE included. It's kind of the point of these sets. To be able to collect current vs. vintage together. Is Peyton Manning or Tom Brady still a question mark? Ray Lewis? I mean, there ARE active players who are no brainer HOFers. Just a matter of being more cautious and/or stingy with the votes. I mean it looks like the majority want DeMarcus Ware and Jared Allen. Both have played fewer than 10 years in the league right now...
Maybe thats the compromise. Maybe the minimum before considering a guy is 10 years in the league. Personally i have always used the 100 game barrier, just based on the extremely low odds of someone with less than 100 games making the HOF. But maybe we need to move the line up to 10 years. This way, you will certainly have a good enough snapshot of a players career to be able to make a proper determination if they are a 75%+ chance or better HOFer.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I like this idea, Jason. Another benefit would be to allow a player's best rookie card to become completely clear. As we saw with Terrell Davis, it shifted from Select Certified to SP over time. I'm sure it's happened with a few others as well.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I like this idea, Jason. Another benefit would be to allow a player's best rookie card to become completely clear. As we saw with Terrell Davis, it shifted from Select Certified to SP over time. I'm sure it's happened with a few others as well. >>
Good luck with that...lol
If you can find a computer program that spells it out for us, then we are set. Otherwsie, its just another issue we need to debate and decide on. It was remedied somewhat by the fact that PSA will ONLY include cards listed in the Beckett Ultimate Rookie Card Encylopedia..That eliminates quite a few of the inserts and whatnot. but choosing amongst those cards? In many cases, there are no clear cut singular rookie card for a player. So will be up to the set collectors to figure it out. If you remember, PSA will send polls out on those as well, to select a particular card....
Do you have an alternate solution in mind? I surely don't...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm just saying' that after 10 years a player's key rookie card is likely to be more apparent than after 6 or 7. Thus, an added bonus of waiting 10 years.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I'm just saying' that after 10 years a player's key rookie card is likely to be more apparent than after 6 or 7. Thus, an added bonus of waiting 10 years. >>
Good point. It certainly couldn't hurt to give it a few more years to shake out.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ware: 11 Allen: 9 Manning: 4 Wayne: 2 Justin Smith: 1 London Fletcher: 1 Andre Johnson: 1 Steve Smith: 2 Suggs: 2 Shane Lechler: 1
Removing Big Ben: 3
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
So if that's the concensus, then we can't add Ware or Allen. The only player with 10 years in is Wayne and it doesnt look like he gets the votes. I'm a big Wayne fan and Colts fan but if he retired today, he is NOT a HOFer IMO.......
<< <i>well here are my humble thoughts on the debate. it seems we are focusing a lot on how Ben and Eli's TEAMS have done in the playoffs. yes as QB they should get some of the credit but not all of the credit.
just a simple food for thought. if SB wins were the only thing why is Haley still on the outside looking in. he has a decent career stat line to warrant induction in addition to the rings.
while i can understand the winner effect for Ben and Eli, I thought the HOF was more about entire career view not just championships. while both have each one two neither has yet to have been voted a top player at his position for a season. maybe a few games.
why i didnt vote for Ben before was that at the time though he had 2 SB wins he still needed more of a body of work behind "HIS" SB wins. i am not sure he has really gotten that body of work behind him yet either. while he will have a big game here and there he still has his share of stinkers. in some respects Eli falls into that same mold for me. if either can get a more consistent level of play then i would be all for either of them. Brady and Brees have shown that consistent play through their careers. Rodgers might as well but still needs to show it, the last two years he has at least displayed that it is probable for that to happen. yet both Brees and Rodgers each only have 1 SB win a piece.
unless someone can change my mind I wont be voting for Eli just like I wouldnt vote for Rodgers yet either. >>
Well stated. Can't really disagree with your line of thinking. It's sensible and valid argument against including Ben and Eli. I just don't understand how one guy is deserving already but the other isn't. Will Eli be the first 2 time Super Bowl MVP to not make the HOF? Apparently it's possible. Yet Ben will definitely get in with similar numbers, an equal number or Pro Bowls and title rings and two LESS Super Bowl MVPs.
I would expect an equal amount of vigor to vote for the removal of Ben from The set if the majority now thinks he is not yet a HOFer. It's why we need to be very careful in these votes to make sure we aren't jumping the gun on adding players. There is no downside to being patient and letting a players career play out until he becomes that sure thing HOF. Which is what this set is meant to be comprised of. Thers is however a downside to voting guys on too early in their careers. Because if Ben never plays another game. Is a HOFer? Would the actual HOF voters put Ben in and not Eli? Knowing the process as I do, the answer to that is absolutely not. These things should be considered prior to voting for additions.
Jason >>
i vote the way i feel. if someone gets it i dont agree with so what.
here is another name to think about. if we rely on SB wins for putting Ben in the set which we think will end up with a HOF election for the player....why isnt Jim Plunkett and his 2 SB wins and one SB MVP in the HOF yet? maybe because the rest of his play isnt quite up to the standard or that there were better QBs during his era though his team won 2 SBs.
overall it seems that at times we want to rush people into some of these sets before we see how long they play or play at that current level.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>So if that's the concensus, then we can't add Ware or Allen. The only player with 10 years in is Wayne and it doesnt look like he gets the votes. I'm a big Wayne fan and Colts fan but if he retired today, he is NOT a HOFer IMO.......
I will also vote to delete Big Ben >>
I have no issues w/ nominating and voting for guys w/ less than 10 years in the league.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>i vote the way i feel. if someone gets it i dont agree with so what.
here is another name to think about. if we rely on SB wins for putting Ben in the set which we think will end up with a HOF election for the player....why isnt Jim Plunkett and his 2 SB wins and one SB MVP in the HOF yet? maybe because the rest of his play isnt quite up to the standard or that there were better QBs during his era though his team won 2 SBs.
overall it seems that at times we want to rush people into some of these sets before we see how long they play or play at that current level. >>
Jim Plunkett "isn't quite up to standard"? LOLOL
How about 15 year career, 0 Pro Bowl's, 0 First or Second Team All-Pro selections, Career record of 72-72...
I'd say that's understating him just a bit to say "not quite up to stanard"..He was at BEST an average QB, and at time was down right terrible.
I don't think anyone here has said or thinks ONLY 2 Super Bowl wins or ONLY a Super Bowl MVP earns you a spot in Canton. If you compare Eli and Ben, there really is no comparison. Phil Simms might make the best argument as the top Super Bowl MVP QB not in the HOF.
I so agree however that there tends to be a rush to judgement sometimes. I think the best solution is making a 10 year minimum. Only problem is PSA isn't going to even ATTEMPT to enforce anything like that. So it could only be done via self-policing, which if you look around the Key Card sets, has not exactly worked all that well. All it takes is one or two new collectors joining a set with their own idea (maybe 5 years minimum) to rally the troops and now your 10 year minimum is out the door...
Sucks. I wish there was a way to apply set standards. I tried, i really did. I even got some in place for a short period. But in the end, PSA simply doesn't care to exclude cards from these sets. They also are responsible for all sets in all sports and in many cases the gals who work hard to help everyone are clueless to some of the requests they receive. So they will blindly send them out and accept a a few votes as the "Majority"...Mainly the reason I've been in the midst of a sell off. Just got tired of putting the work in to police these sets and try and keep the logical by applying set standards and precedents. Only to see that work flushed down the toilet by some newb who joined the set(s) 8 years after me and wants to put their own opinions stamp on it.
I'll get off my soapbox now. I'm sure you are ALL aware this has been a sore sport for me. Most who know me understand the passion i had for the Registry and for collecting HOFers and it ills me that I no longer feel the same way about either. Sorry.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I don't actively collect this set, but I (usually) enjoy the banter going back and forth in this thread...until now. With my obvious bias aside towards Roethlisberger, if your goal is to keep a running log of players you think should someday make the HOF (based on what they have shown so far), you have to include him in this list that you made up, especially if you're including players such as Ware and Allen, two players on middling teams that ultimately do not make a whole hell of a difference in wins and losses for their teams (unlike Roethlisberger). In Roethlisberger, you have a clutch QB who is largely responsible for two of the Steelers three SB visits. They don't win the Arizona SB without him, that's very clear.
I don't feel Eli and Ben are on equal career footing. It just so happens that Eli is hotter at the moment, but career-wise, Ben has him beat. I feel they both should be included on your future list, but what do I know? I think a bigger grievance is that he was already added and now you're taking him off after another quality season, despite the fact that he played a quarter of the season on one leg? Maybe everyone is looking at his off the field stuff and using that against him here? If you're judging current players on their already earned merit (and you are), Eli and Ben have to be included on this list, especially when I look at the list above (Steve Smith, really??).
I don't feel Eli and Ben are on equal career footing. It just so happens that Eli is hotter at the moment, but career-wise, Ben has him beat. I feel they both should be included on your future list, but what do I know? I think a bigger grievance is that he was already added and now you're taking him off after another quality season, despite the fact that he played a quarter of the season on one leg? Maybe everyone is looking at his off the field stuff and using that against him here? If you're judging current players on their already earned merit (and you are), Eli and Ben have to be included on this list, especially when I look at the list above (Steve Smith, really??). >>
I don't think anyone said they are 50-50 perfectly equal. What I said is that they are very comparable if you look over the facts of their careers this far. I also give Ben a very slight advantage. But like you, I think they both belong on the list. And I don't base my opinion on a feeling I get or a hunch or because I personally like one guy over another. Just using simple logic, and comparing their careers. Both have been equally important to their team success. Ben came in as a rookie and played well right off the bat. He also played for a team that was already good. And a defense that was great at helping him win games. Eli started slower. But with the improved pieces around him he's caught up to Ben in many ways. Are they equal? No not yet. But they are close enough when you look at the big picture that you really can't have the set contain one and not the other and make sense. For whatever reason guys are so against adding Eli they'd rather vote to remove Ben.
Most likely there will not be enough votes to add Eli or remove Ben. So we end up like the HOF committee either the WRs. In a no decision.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Any of the previous voters want to throw in on Terrell Suggs? He wasn't mentioned earlier and might have been overlooked by some of you. Multiple Pro Bowls, ROY, All-Pro and now Defensive Player of the Year.
I would rather see us remove Big Ben, then add Eli also, so I vote to remove the Benster.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>So if that's the concensus, then we can't add Ware or Allen. The only player with 10 years in is Wayne and it doesnt look like he gets the votes. I'm a big Wayne fan and Colts fan but if he retired today, he is NOT a HOFer IMO.......
I will also vote to delete Big Ben >>
I have no issues w/ nominating and voting for guys w/ less than 10 years in the league. >>
Neither do I. Lots of HOF'ers with less then 10 years, including many of the best players, such as Jim Brown. If we use a marker, it should be 100 games, which we can simplify by rounding to 7 years.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Any of the previous voters want to throw in on Terrell Suggs? He wasn't mentioned earlier and might have been overlooked by some of you. Multiple Pro Bowls, ROY, All-Pro and now Defensive Player of the Year.
I would rather see us remove Big Ben, then add Eli also, so I vote to remove the Benster. >>
What do you base this on, two Super Bowl MVPs, one of which (the first) he shouldn't have even won? Otherwise, Ben's stats are better...
<< <i>Any of the previous voters want to throw in on Terrell Suggs? He wasn't mentioned earlier and might have been overlooked by some of you. Multiple Pro Bowls, ROY, All-Pro and now Defensive Player of the Year.
I would rather see us remove Big Ben, then add Eli also, so I vote to remove the Benster. >>
What do you base this on, two Super Bowl MVPs, one of which (the first) he shouldn't have even won? Otherwise, Ben's stats are better... >>
Edit...I'm glad I don't collect this set, it would be maddening adding players and removing players a year later through no fault of their own!
<< <i>Any of the previous voters want to throw in on Terrell Suggs? He wasn't mentioned earlier and might have been overlooked by some of you. Multiple Pro Bowls, ROY, All-Pro and now Defensive Player of the Year.
I would rather see us remove Big Ben, then add Eli also, so I vote to remove the Benster. >>
I feel Suggs is very close, but I'm not ready to put him in the HOF class just yet. He has a nice resume, but it's borderline HOF resume. Lots of guys with similar profiles not on the set. Let's compare him to say James Harrison and Joey Porter, who play a similar position as 3-4 LB during the same era.
Suggs- 141 games played, 5 Pro Bowls, 1 First Team All-Pro, Def. ROY, Def. POY, 0 Super Bowl rings, 82.5 sacks, 7 INT, 25 forced fumbles, 11 fumble recoveries Harrison- 118 games played, 4 Pro Bowls, 2 First Team All-Pro, Def. POY, 2 Super Bowl rings (to include a signature play), 58 sacks, 5 INTs, 27 forced fumbles, 8 fumble recoveries Porter- 188 games played, 4 Pro Bowls, 1 First Team All-Pro, 1 Super Bowl ring, 98 sacks, 12 INTs, 25 forced fumbles, 10 fumble recoveries
Is Suggs that much better than either of these guys? I think he needs another 1st team All-Pro, maybe a Super Bowl ring, and/or at the very least 100+ sacks. How many pass rushers are going to make the HOF with less than 100+ sacks in the future? My guess is zero.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Any of the previous voters want to throw in on Terrell Suggs? He wasn't mentioned earlier and might have been overlooked by some of you. Multiple Pro Bowls, ROY, All-Pro and now Defensive Player of the Year.
I would rather see us remove Big Ben, then add Eli also, so I vote to remove the Benster. >>
What do you base this on, two Super Bowl MVPs, one of which (the first) he shouldn't have even won? Otherwise, Ben's stats are better... >>
I suppose part because I don't think Eli belongs (who also shouldn't have been the SB MVP this last weekend, Pierre Paul should have gotten it), part because we don't need Jason to complain 50 times we didn't add Eli and have Ben, and part because we can vote to add Ben again in a year or two. I do imagine Ben will continue to do well, and if removed he will return. The AFC doesn't seem to shift in power as much as the NFC.
As I noted earlier, I think SB's are overvalued when looking at a player individually. Give me a Warren Moon or a Dan Marino, over a Jeff Hostetler or a Doug Williams.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Comments
Eli- 69-50 regular season record. 2 Super Bowls, 2 Championships. 2 Super Bowl MVP Award. 2 Pro Bowls. 0 First Team All-Pro. 27,500 pass yards. 185TD-129INT
Expanding on these...
Ben- Playoff record 10-4. Playoff Game Winning Drives 3. Regular season 4th QTR comebacks 20, Game Winning Drives 26
Eli- Playoff record 8-3. Playoff Game Winning Drives 4. Regular season 4th QTR comebacks 20, Game Winning Drives 24
These QB's career are almost identical. How is one HOF deserving right now, but the other isn't? Doesn't it have to be both or neither? How do separate these guys?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ware: 8
Allen: 6
Manning: 2
Wayne: 1
Justin Smith: 1
London Fletcher: 1
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll vote for ware and allen but will hold off on Eli.........
Eli has probably 5-6 years left. It may take another 2 years of solid play for me to give him my vote. He's definatly on the fence at this point and could fall either way for me.
However, If Im conservative...........Eli with 4 more years........Approx 100 more TD's, Maybe 15K yards. Those numbers alone put him near the top. >>
So have to ask again, how exactly does Roethlisbreger belong on the set then? Eli has more yds and TDs right now....
When we voted Big Ben onto the set, the votes were: 17 to add Ben, 5 votes to not add.
Votes to add: jasp24, rexvos, davemri, vjsteele4, NickM, Publis, saucywombat, alifaxwa2, dfr52, gosteelers, BiggelowBiggers1, gregm13
Did NOT vote to add: jay0971, jradke4, FavrefFan1971, SooperDave, shaqrotn77
For those who didn't vote ben on, totally makes sense that they also wouldn't vote Eli on. I full understand and have no argument as it is a valid opinion. But for those who voted Ben on, how exactly do you NOT vote for Eli? I don't understand. Can you please explain your reasoning?
Thanks,
Jason >>
I have to agree, why Big Ben but not Eli?
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>Updated Future HOF'er Totals
Ware: 8
Allen: 6
Manning: 2
Wayne: 1
Justin Smith: 1
London Fletcher: 1 >>
Add my vote for Eli if you haven't already.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I am very happy for Eli and the Giants. He has become a superb QB. He just needs a few more years.
Now HOF. To me he is dominant and the guy I want on my team.
I have a qustion to you knowledgable guys on this board. You are going into the super bowl and need a QB.
Lets keep the rest of the team blank...who ya gonna choose
Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Flacco, Roma, E Manning or anyone else ? current guys P Manning hurt and out.
Can you have 4-5 HOF'ers playing at the same time?
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Ware: 8
Allen: 6
Manning: 3
Wayne: 1
Justin Smith: 1
London Fletcher: 1
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>Living in the heart of NY Giants country...they practice practically in my back yard at Albany State U......
I am very happy for Eli and the Giants. He has become a superb QB. He just needs a few more years.
Now HOF. To me he is dominant and the guy I want on my team.
I have a qustion to you knowledgable guys on this board. You are going into the super bowl and need a QB.
Lets keep the rest of the team blank...who ya gonna choose
Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Flacco, Roma, E Manning or anyone else ? current guys P Manning hurt and out.
Can you have 4-5 HOF'ers playing at the same time? >>
I'd put Ben and Eli right behind Brady, Rodgers and Brees...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
Can you have 4-5 HOF'ers playing at the same time? >>
jay, check this craziness out...
1986 Active NFL QBs, now in the HOF- Fouts, Montana, Kelly, Elway, Young, Marino, Moon
1948-1950- Baugh, Waterfield, Van Brocklin, Luckman, Graham, Layne, Tittle
So yes, you can actually have up to 7!!!
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Ben- 80-33 regular season record. 3 Super Bowls, 2 Championships. 1 Off Rookie of Year Award. 2 Pro Bowls. 0 First Team All-Pro. 26,500 Pass yards. 165TD-100INT
Eli- 69-50 regular season record. 2 Super Bowls, 2 Championships. 2 Super Bowl MVP Award. 2 Pro Bowls. 0 First Team All-Pro. 27,500 pass yards. 185TD-129INT
Expanding on these...
Ben- Playoff record 10-4. Playoff Game Winning Drives 3. Regular season 4th QTR comebacks 20, Game Winning Drives 26
Eli- Playoff record 8-3. Playoff Game Winning Drives 4. Regular season 4th QTR comebacks 20, Game Winning Drives 24
These QB's career are almost identical. How is one HOF deserving right now, but the other isn't? Doesn't it have to be both or neither? How do separate these guys?
Jason >>
I didn't vote on either, but wow I never realized how much alike Eli and Ben's career's are.
<< <i>Living in the heart of NY Giants country...they practice practically in my back yard at Albany State U......
I am very happy for Eli and the Giants. He has become a superb QB. He just needs a few more years.
Now HOF. To me he is dominant and the guy I want on my team.
I have a qustion to you knowledgable guys on this board. You are going into the super bowl and need a QB.
Lets keep the rest of the team blank...who ya gonna choose
Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Flacco, Roma, E Manning or anyone else ? current guys P Manning hurt and out.
Can you have 4-5 HOF'ers playing at the same time? >>
I'm picking Aaron Rodgers for my QB in a Super Bowl against any AFC team.
They don't have to play against the Giants front four.
Eli has never been considered a top 5 QB except for maybe this year. I think this is the first year he makes the top 5. In fact, maybe we were a little to quick to put Big Ben in the future set. With the way the league has been geared more toward the passing game and protecting the QB, all the stats are inflated.
Of course this is just my opinion......but I would like to see one more year out of him.
As far as Eli vs. Ben, I still think Bens entire body of work is better. Ben is much more physical and tough to bring down. He has 3 times the rushing yards and rushing TD in career. Ben's QB rating is 92 and Eli's is 82. To me, that is a significant difference.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>
As far as Eli vs. Ben, I still think Bens entire body of work is better. Ben is much more physical and tough to bring down. He has 3 times the rushing yards and rushing TD in career. Ben's QB rating is 92 and Eli's is 82. To me, that is a significant difference. >>
So 944 rushing yards. 14 rushing TDs and 92 passer rating
vs.
So 365 rushing yards. 4 rushing TDs and 82 passer rating
TRUMPS 2 Super Bowl MVPs to zero, 1,000 more passing yards and 20 more passing TDs????
Just isn't logic when the subject is HOF vs. not HOF...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Like I said, I'm "on the fence" with Eli right now. If Ben were up for a vote, I would be in the same boat as ELI... I just want to see another year from him. Maybe I was too quick to vote for Ben like I said. It's really splitting hairs. Yes they are very similar. I give Ben a slight edge right now.
I'm glad to see this thread getting some attention though. Has anyone picked any new cards up lately? I haven't bought a card for this set since the national last summer. Also, with this years class, it is the first time my set has dipped below 100% since 2008. I need to find a Cortez Kennedy. I may have to pick up a few raw and send them in.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Ben- 80-33 regular season record. 3 Super Bowls, 2 Championships. 1 Super Bowl MVP. 2 Pro Bowls. 0 First Team All-Pro. 26,500 Pass yards. 165TD-100INT
Eli- 69-50 regular season record. 2 Super Bowls, 2 Championships. 2 Super Bowl MVP. 2 Pro Bowls. 0 First Team All-Pro. 27,500 pass yards. 185TD-129INT
Pretty comparable...
Not really IMO. When I think of big Ben he's been clutch big play QB, who has played in 3 super bowls. Always in the playoff mix. Eli has been living on the Manning name except for a kinda fluky super bowl run. Kinda not living up to expectations. Until this year when he was great all year. Right now he looks great. Wasn't big Ben voted in last year at this time after his third super bowl appearance. IMO Eli is on the fence and could be heading that way. But I'm not voting for him yet. Just one guy's opinion.
1 more vote for Ware & Allen
And for consideration Andre Johnson & Steve Smith, I'll vote for Andre
<a href="http://s784.photobucket.com/albums/yy124/ffishonn/?action=view¤t=thecatch31.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy124/ffishonn/thecatch31.jpg" border="0" alt="The Catch"></a>
Their careers would be just too short for a modern day QB.
Roethlisberger has benefited from playing on the premier defensive team during his career.
His passing numbers might be higher if he played for a worse team, but then he wouldn't
have the team success and SB appearances. All speculation here.
Let's be honest, Eli's first four years are not that hot. He really hasn't come along to being
considered a borderline elite QB until this years playoffs. He still throws too many INT's to me.
He's averaged 17 INT's over the past seven years, 120 total in seven years, not counting his rookie year
in the mix when he only starter half the year. His QB rating was under 80.0 his first four years too.
That's an average QB at best. He's picked it up over the past four years but until he's at 100 rating with
lower int's, I'd have a problem calling him a future HOF'er. Maybe team success and especially playoff wins
trumps all the rest and then you can throw out the stats.
If they add some more quality years to their resume, I'd reconsider them both as being HOF worthy.
Also, neither guy has been all-pro first team at QB. To me that says a lot.
When I think of great HOF level QB's, I think of Peyton Manning, Brady, and maybe Brees.
That's about it right now. Rodgers may get there but he needs at least 6-8 more great years too.
Eli and Ben : they're both right in the 5th to 8th range of best QB's in Football right now.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Jason you forgot the ageless wonder Blanda. His FB card says QB on it. Not kicker. Lets not forget his laser accurate rocket arm guiding that pigskin
directly into the numbers on every pass he ever threw.
In Elis 1st SB win i remeber the feeling was....since he was not considered an elite QB at the time....just don't do something stupid.
Throw the ball away vs getting sacked or an int....and the giants will win the game.
In only the 2nd half of this season I would say Eli really mattered and was the difference. If you can't score in 3 qtrs and need to comeback every single 4 qtr to win...that makes you great?
So Tebow is amongst the greats also.
I certainly hope in 4-5 years this discussion is a no brainer and Eli has earned hof status.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I also have a hard time rating him with Roethlisberger. Super Bowl MVP's are great. But, Super Bowl titles is the main thing. They each have two. Big Ben also has another Super Bowl appearance, plus a number of playoff seasons. His TD-Int ratio is MUCH better and his passer rating is better. And that win-loss record isn't that close either. His winning percentage is a lofty .708, while Eli's is .580. Ben has had four seasons in which he has led his team to a playoff win, and three seasons in which he has led Pittsburgh to multiple playoff wins.
I like Eli a lot. Right now, he rates just a tad below Big Ben as I see it.
Add a vote for me to Ware, Allen, and Wayne. As a write in I will put down Terrell Suggs.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
just a simple food for thought. if SB wins were the only thing why is Haley still on the outside looking in. he has a decent career stat line to warrant induction in addition to the rings.
while i can understand the winner effect for Ben and Eli, I thought the HOF was more about entire career view not just championships. while both have each one two neither has yet to have been voted a top player at his position for a season. maybe a few games.
why i didnt vote for Ben before was that at the time though he had 2 SB wins he still needed more of a body of work behind "HIS" SB wins. i am not sure he has really gotten that body of work behind him yet either. while he will have a big game here and there he still has his share of stinkers. in some respects Eli falls into that same mold for me. if either can get a more consistent level of play then i would be all for either of them. Brady and Brees have shown that consistent play through their careers. Rodgers might as well but still needs to show it, the last two years he has at least displayed that it is probable for that to happen. yet both Brees and Rodgers each only have 1 SB win a piece.
unless someone can change my mind I wont be voting for Eli just like I wouldnt vote for Rodgers yet either.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
If Rodgers, Brees or Brady went to the Cleveland Browns or the Oakland Raiders, does anyone think they would instantly become an elite team?
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>well here are my humble thoughts on the debate. it seems we are focusing a lot on how Ben and Eli's TEAMS have done in the playoffs. yes as QB they should get some of the credit but not all of the credit.
just a simple food for thought. if SB wins were the only thing why is Haley still on the outside looking in. he has a decent career stat line to warrant induction in addition to the rings.
while i can understand the winner effect for Ben and Eli, I thought the HOF was more about entire career view not just championships. while both have each one two neither has yet to have been voted a top player at his position for a season. maybe a few games.
why i didnt vote for Ben before was that at the time though he had 2 SB wins he still needed more of a body of work behind "HIS" SB wins. i am not sure he has really gotten that body of work behind him yet either. while he will have a big game here and there he still has his share of stinkers. in some respects Eli falls into that same mold for me. if either can get a more consistent level of play then i would be all for either of them. Brady and Brees have shown that consistent play through their careers. Rodgers might as well but still needs to show it, the last two years he has at least displayed that it is probable for that to happen. yet both Brees and Rodgers each only have 1 SB win a piece.
unless someone can change my mind I wont be voting for Eli just like I wouldnt vote for Rodgers yet either. >>
Well stated. Can't really disagree with your line of thinking. It's sensible and valid argument against including Ben and Eli. I just don't understand how one guy is deserving already but the other isn't. Will Eli be the first 2 time Super Bowl MVP to not make the HOF? Apparently it's possible. Yet Ben will definitely get in with similar numbers, an equal number or Pro Bowls and title rings and two LESS Super Bowl MVPs.
I would expect an equal amount of vigor to vote for the removal of Ben from
The set if the majority now thinks he is not yet a HOFer. It's why we need to be very careful in these votes to make sure we aren't jumping the gun on adding players. There is no downside to being patient and letting a players career play out until he becomes that sure thing HOF. Which is what this set is meant to be comprised of. Thers is however a downside to voting guys on too early in their careers. Because if Ben never plays another game. Is a HOFer? Would the actual HOF voters put Ben in and not Eli? Knowing the process as I do, the answer to that is absolutely not. These things should be considered prior to voting for additions.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ware: 10
Allen: 8
Manning: 3
Wayne: 2
Justin Smith: 1
London Fletcher: 1
Andre Johnson: 1
Steve Smith: 2
Suggs: 1
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
<< <i>well here are my humble thoughts on the debate. it seems we are focusing a lot on how Ben and Eli's TEAMS have done in the playoffs. yes as QB they should get some of the credit but not all of the credit.
just a simple food for thought. if SB wins were the only thing why is Haley still on the outside looking in. he has a decent career stat line to warrant induction in addition to the rings.
while i can understand the winner effect for Ben and Eli, I thought the HOF was more about entire career view not just championships. while both have each one two neither has yet to have been voted a top player at his position for a season. maybe a few games.
why i didnt vote for Ben before was that at the time though he had 2 SB wins he still needed more of a body of work behind "HIS" SB wins. i am not sure he has really gotten that body of work behind him yet either. while he will have a big game here and there he still has his share of stinkers. in some respects Eli falls into that same mold for me. if either can get a more consistent level of play then i would be all for either of them. Brady and Brees have shown that consistent play through their careers. Rodgers might as well but still needs to show it, the last two years he has at least displayed that it is probable for that to happen. yet both Brees and Rodgers each only have 1 SB win a piece.
unless someone can change my mind I wont be voting for Eli just like I wouldnt vote for Rodgers yet either. >>
Well stated. Can't really disagree with your line of thinking. It's sensible and valid argument against including Ben and Eli. I just don't understand how one guy is deserving already but the other isn't. Will Eli be the first 2 time Super Bowl MVP to not make the HOF? Apparently it's possible. Yet Ben will definitely get in with similar numbers, an equal number or Pro Bowls and title rings and two LESS Super Bowl MVPs.
I would expect an equal amount of vigor to vote for the removal of Ben from
The set if the majority now thinks he is not yet a HOFer. It's why we need to be very careful in these votes to make sure we aren't jumping the gun on adding players. There is no downside to being patient and letting a players career play out until he becomes that sure thing HOF. Which is what this set is meant to be comprised of. Thers is however a downside to voting guys on too early in their careers. Because if Ben never plays another game. Is a HOFer? Would the actual HOF voters put Ben in and not Eli? Knowing the process as I do, the answer to that is absolutely not. These things should be considered prior to voting for additions.
Jason >>
Great points Jason, and I believe we should look at removing Big Ben from the set.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm of the mindset that's either both or neither.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Interesting discussion and I would agree with the removal of Big Ben.
Check out this article and video at profootballtalk.com about the HOF selection process, possible changes to come and some insights into what happened behind the scenes this year.
profootballtalk.com HOF article
David
But this comes to what I have been saying about the HOF set, the Senior and Mondern sets, and the All Time set. CURRENT PLAYERS CANNOT BE INCLUDED. The player must be retired to be included in the sets. HOF is cut and dry but the rest are debates that don't need to happen until the player retires.
This set should be a no brainer of highly likely players to make the hof.
I think frank said wait until the players carear is over. good thoughts.
I would take ben off and not add Eli.
Not saying they are not good or even on thier way to Canton.
Powderedh20 made some excellent points.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>I would vote to remove Ben also.
But this comes to what I have been saying about the HOF set, the Senior and Mondern sets, and the All Time set. CURRENT PLAYERS CANNOT BE INCLUDED. The player must be retired to be included in the sets. HOF is cut and dry but the rest are debates that don't need to happen until the player retires. >>
I partially agree with this. But i do think active players CAN BE included. It's kind of the point of these sets. To be able to collect current vs. vintage together. Is Peyton Manning or Tom Brady still a question mark? Ray Lewis? I mean, there ARE active players who are no brainer HOFers. Just a matter of being more cautious and/or stingy with the votes. I mean it looks like the majority want DeMarcus Ware and Jared Allen. Both have played fewer than 10 years in the league right now...
Maybe thats the compromise. Maybe the minimum before considering a guy is 10 years in the league. Personally i have always used the 100 game barrier, just based on the extremely low odds of someone with less than 100 games making the HOF. But maybe we need to move the line up to 10 years. This way, you will certainly have a good enough snapshot of a players career to be able to make a proper determination if they are a 75%+ chance or better HOFer.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I like this idea, Jason. Another benefit would be to allow a player's best rookie card to become completely clear. As we saw with Terrell Davis, it shifted from Select Certified to SP over time. I'm sure it's happened with a few others as well. >>
Good luck with that...lol
If you can find a computer program that spells it out for us, then we are set. Otherwsie, its just another issue we need to debate and decide on. It was remedied somewhat by the fact that PSA will ONLY include cards listed in the Beckett Ultimate Rookie Card Encylopedia..That eliminates quite a few of the inserts and whatnot. but choosing amongst those cards? In many cases, there are no clear cut singular rookie card for a player. So will be up to the set collectors to figure it out. If you remember, PSA will send polls out on those as well, to select a particular card....
Do you have an alternate solution in mind? I surely don't...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jared Allen
Shane Lechler
Eli Manning
Terrell Suggs
DeMarcus Ware
The way the HOF is refusing to add WRs, I can't vote to add Wayne or Smith yet.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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<< <i>I'm just saying' that after 10 years a player's key rookie card is likely to be more apparent than after 6 or 7. Thus, an added bonus of waiting 10 years. >>
Good point. It certainly couldn't hurt to give it a few more years to shake out.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ware: 11
Allen: 9
Manning: 4
Wayne: 2
Justin Smith: 1
London Fletcher: 1
Andre Johnson: 1
Steve Smith: 2
Suggs: 2
Shane Lechler: 1
Removing Big Ben: 3
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I will also vote to delete Big Ben
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>well here are my humble thoughts on the debate. it seems we are focusing a lot on how Ben and Eli's TEAMS have done in the playoffs. yes as QB they should get some of the credit but not all of the credit.
just a simple food for thought. if SB wins were the only thing why is Haley still on the outside looking in. he has a decent career stat line to warrant induction in addition to the rings.
while i can understand the winner effect for Ben and Eli, I thought the HOF was more about entire career view not just championships. while both have each one two neither has yet to have been voted a top player at his position for a season. maybe a few games.
why i didnt vote for Ben before was that at the time though he had 2 SB wins he still needed more of a body of work behind "HIS" SB wins. i am not sure he has really gotten that body of work behind him yet either. while he will have a big game here and there he still has his share of stinkers. in some respects Eli falls into that same mold for me. if either can get a more consistent level of play then i would be all for either of them. Brady and Brees have shown that consistent play through their careers. Rodgers might as well but still needs to show it, the last two years he has at least displayed that it is probable for that to happen. yet both Brees and Rodgers each only have 1 SB win a piece.
unless someone can change my mind I wont be voting for Eli just like I wouldnt vote for Rodgers yet either. >>
Well stated. Can't really disagree with your line of thinking. It's sensible and valid argument against including Ben and Eli. I just don't understand how one guy is deserving already but the other isn't. Will Eli be the first 2 time Super Bowl MVP to not make the HOF? Apparently it's possible. Yet Ben will definitely get in with similar numbers, an equal number or Pro Bowls and title rings and two LESS Super Bowl MVPs.
I would expect an equal amount of vigor to vote for the removal of Ben from
The set if the majority now thinks he is not yet a HOFer. It's why we need to be very careful in these votes to make sure we aren't jumping the gun on adding players. There is no downside to being patient and letting a players career play out until he becomes that sure thing HOF. Which is what this set is meant to be comprised of. Thers is however a downside to voting guys on too early in their careers. Because if Ben never plays another game. Is a HOFer? Would the actual HOF voters put Ben in and not Eli? Knowing the process as I do, the answer to that is absolutely not. These things should be considered prior to voting for additions.
Jason >>
i vote the way i feel. if someone gets it i dont agree with so what.
here is another name to think about. if we rely on SB wins for putting Ben in the set which we think will end up with a HOF election for the player....why isnt Jim Plunkett and his 2 SB wins and one SB MVP in the HOF yet? maybe because the rest of his play isnt quite up to the standard or that there were better QBs during his era though his team won 2 SBs.
overall it seems that at times we want to rush people into some of these sets before we see how long they play or play at that current level.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>So if that's the concensus, then we can't add Ware or Allen. The only player with 10 years in is Wayne and it doesnt look like he gets the votes. I'm a big Wayne fan and Colts fan but if he retired today, he is NOT a HOFer IMO.......
I will also vote to delete Big Ben >>
I have no issues w/ nominating and voting for guys w/ less than 10 years in the league.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>i vote the way i feel. if someone gets it i dont agree with so what.
here is another name to think about. if we rely on SB wins for putting Ben in the set which we think will end up with a HOF election for the player....why isnt Jim Plunkett and his 2 SB wins and one SB MVP in the HOF yet? maybe because the rest of his play isnt quite up to the standard or that there were better QBs during his era though his team won 2 SBs.
overall it seems that at times we want to rush people into some of these sets before we see how long they play or play at that current level. >>
Jim Plunkett "isn't quite up to standard"? LOLOL
How about 15 year career, 0 Pro Bowl's, 0 First or Second Team All-Pro selections, Career record of 72-72...
I'd say that's understating him just a bit to say "not quite up to stanard"..He was at BEST an average QB, and at time was down right terrible.
I don't think anyone here has said or thinks ONLY 2 Super Bowl wins or ONLY a Super Bowl MVP earns you a spot in Canton. If you compare Eli and Ben, there really is no comparison. Phil Simms might make the best argument as the top Super Bowl MVP QB not in the HOF.
I so agree however that there tends to be a rush to judgement sometimes. I think the best solution is making a 10 year minimum. Only problem is PSA isn't going to even ATTEMPT to enforce anything like that. So it could only be done via self-policing, which if you look around the Key Card sets, has not exactly worked all that well. All it takes is one or two new collectors joining a set with their own idea (maybe 5 years minimum) to rally the troops and now your 10 year minimum is out the door...
Sucks. I wish there was a way to apply set standards. I tried, i really did. I even got some in place for a short period. But in the end, PSA simply doesn't care to exclude cards from these sets. They also are responsible for all sets in all sports and in many cases the gals who work hard to help everyone are clueless to some of the requests they receive. So they will blindly send them out and accept a a few votes as the "Majority"...Mainly the reason I've been in the midst of a sell off. Just got tired of putting the work in to police these sets and try and keep the logical by applying set standards and precedents. Only to see that work flushed down the toilet by some newb who joined the set(s) 8 years after me and wants to put their own opinions stamp on it.
I'll get off my soapbox now. I'm sure you are ALL aware this has been a sore sport for me. Most who know me understand the passion i had for the Registry and for collecting HOFers and it ills me that I no longer feel the same way about either. Sorry.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I don't feel Eli and Ben are on equal career footing. It just so happens that Eli is hotter at the moment, but career-wise, Ben has him beat. I feel they both should be included on your future list, but what do I know? I think a bigger grievance is that he was already added and now you're taking him off after another quality season, despite the fact that he played a quarter of the season on one leg? Maybe everyone is looking at his off the field stuff and using that against him here? If you're judging current players on their already earned merit (and you are), Eli and Ben have to be included on this list, especially when I look at the list above (Steve Smith, really??).
<< <i>
I don't feel Eli and Ben are on equal career footing. It just so happens that Eli is hotter at the moment, but career-wise, Ben has him beat. I feel they both should be included on your future list, but what do I know? I think a bigger grievance is that he was already added and now you're taking him off after another quality season, despite the fact that he played a quarter of the season on one leg? Maybe everyone is looking at his off the field stuff and using that against him here? If you're judging current players on their already earned merit (and you are), Eli and Ben have to be included on this list, especially when I look at the list above (Steve Smith, really??). >>
I don't think anyone said they are 50-50 perfectly equal. What I said is that they are very comparable if you look over the facts of their careers this far. I also give Ben a very slight advantage. But like you, I think they both belong on the list. And I don't base my opinion on a feeling I get or a hunch or because I personally like one guy over another. Just using simple logic, and comparing their careers. Both have been equally important to their team success. Ben came in as a rookie and played well right off the bat. He also played for a team that was already good. And a defense that was great at helping him win games. Eli started slower. But with the improved pieces around him he's caught up to Ben in many ways. Are they equal? No not yet. But they are close enough when you look at the big picture that you really can't have the set contain one and not the other and make sense. For whatever reason guys are so against adding Eli they'd rather vote to remove Ben.
Most likely there will not be enough votes to add Eli or remove Ben. So we end up like the HOF committee either the WRs. In a no decision.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I would rather see us remove Big Ben, then add Eli also, so I vote to remove the Benster.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>
<< <i>So if that's the concensus, then we can't add Ware or Allen. The only player with 10 years in is Wayne and it doesnt look like he gets the votes. I'm a big Wayne fan and Colts fan but if he retired today, he is NOT a HOFer IMO.......
I will also vote to delete Big Ben >>
I have no issues w/ nominating and voting for guys w/ less than 10 years in the league. >>
Neither do I. Lots of HOF'ers with less then 10 years, including many of the best players, such as Jim Brown. If we use a marker, it should be 100 games, which we can simplify by rounding to 7 years.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Any of the previous voters want to throw in on Terrell Suggs? He wasn't mentioned earlier and might have been overlooked by some of you. Multiple Pro Bowls, ROY, All-Pro and now Defensive Player of the Year.
I would rather see us remove Big Ben, then add Eli also, so I vote to remove the Benster. >>
What do you base this on, two Super Bowl MVPs, one of which (the first) he shouldn't have even won? Otherwise, Ben's stats are better...
<< <i>
<< <i>Any of the previous voters want to throw in on Terrell Suggs? He wasn't mentioned earlier and might have been overlooked by some of you. Multiple Pro Bowls, ROY, All-Pro and now Defensive Player of the Year.
I would rather see us remove Big Ben, then add Eli also, so I vote to remove the Benster. >>
What do you base this on, two Super Bowl MVPs, one of which (the first) he shouldn't have even won? Otherwise, Ben's stats are better... >>
Edit...I'm glad I don't collect this set, it would be maddening adding players and removing players a year later through no fault of their own!
<< <i>Any of the previous voters want to throw in on Terrell Suggs? He wasn't mentioned earlier and might have been overlooked by some of you. Multiple Pro Bowls, ROY, All-Pro and now Defensive Player of the Year.
I would rather see us remove Big Ben, then add Eli also, so I vote to remove the Benster. >>
I feel Suggs is very close, but I'm not ready to put him in the HOF class just yet. He has a nice resume, but it's borderline HOF resume. Lots of guys with similar profiles not on the set. Let's compare him to say James Harrison and Joey Porter, who play a similar position as 3-4 LB during the same era.
Suggs- 141 games played, 5 Pro Bowls, 1 First Team All-Pro, Def. ROY, Def. POY, 0 Super Bowl rings, 82.5 sacks, 7 INT, 25 forced fumbles, 11 fumble recoveries
Harrison- 118 games played, 4 Pro Bowls, 2 First Team All-Pro, Def. POY, 2 Super Bowl rings (to include a signature play), 58 sacks, 5 INTs, 27 forced fumbles, 8 fumble recoveries
Porter- 188 games played, 4 Pro Bowls, 1 First Team All-Pro, 1 Super Bowl ring, 98 sacks, 12 INTs, 25 forced fumbles, 10 fumble recoveries
Is Suggs that much better than either of these guys? I think he needs another 1st team All-Pro, maybe a Super Bowl ring, and/or at the very least 100+ sacks. How many pass rushers are going to make the HOF with less than 100+ sacks in the future? My guess is zero.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>Any of the previous voters want to throw in on Terrell Suggs? He wasn't mentioned earlier and might have been overlooked by some of you. Multiple Pro Bowls, ROY, All-Pro and now Defensive Player of the Year.
I would rather see us remove Big Ben, then add Eli also, so I vote to remove the Benster. >>
What do you base this on, two Super Bowl MVPs, one of which (the first) he shouldn't have even won? Otherwise, Ben's stats are better... >>
I suppose part because I don't think Eli belongs (who also shouldn't have been the SB MVP this last weekend, Pierre Paul should have gotten it), part because we don't need Jason to complain 50 times we didn't add Eli and have Ben, and part because we can vote to add Ben again in a year or two. I do imagine Ben will continue to do well, and if removed he will return. The AFC doesn't seem to shift in power as much as the NFC.
As I noted earlier, I think SB's are overvalued when looking at a player individually. Give me a Warren Moon or a Dan Marino, over a Jeff Hostetler or a Doug Williams.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.