<< <i>Looks like someone requested Donnie Shell be added to the HOF-Modern set. I am assuming this was a mistake, as Shell is not among the list of 15 modern finalists, and this was his final year as a modern candidate. He will now only be considered as a SENIOR candidate. I let Gayle know that Shell is no longer eligible for the Modern set, hopefully she will make the fix.
I wouldn't have voted for his addition to the modern set even if he were still eligible. He's more of a longshot candidate and would not fit the modern set IMO. I think he is worthy of addition to the Senior set, being a previous Finalist.
Jason >>
Look at the bright side, at least it was not Sam Cunningham or Louis Lipps :-)
<< <i>Looks like someone requested Donnie Shell be added to the HOF-Modern set. I am assuming this was a mistake, as Shell is not among the list of 15 modern finalists, and this was his final year as a modern candidate. He will now only be considered as a SENIOR candidate. I let Gayle know that Shell is no longer eligible for the Modern set, hopefully she will make the fix.
I wouldn't have voted for his addition to the modern set even if he were still eligible. He's more of a longshot candidate and would not fit the modern set IMO. I think he is worthy of addition to the Senior set, being a previous Finalist.
Jason >>
Look at the bright side, at least it was not Sam Cunningham or Louis Lipps :-) >>
Well, they all kinda seem to fall in the same category...Cards that don't belong on the sets they are being requested...I wouldn't be shocked if Shell gets the votes and is added. Honestly, think it will be hilarious, and in someways fitting to where the Registry has gone the past few years...lol
I'm thinking of requesting Deion Sanders to the Baseball HOF Rookie set...He's a HOFer and played baseball right? Makes TOTAL sense...Let's not let the baseball guys off scott free. Misery loves company right? (Just kidding about do that, but I would bet that PSA would send out the poll..lol)
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My votes are for Ware, Allen, London Fletcher, and Justin Smith.
I realize Fletcher and Smith lack career accolades but they are two of the best players at their positions. Both have played at high levels for most of their careers but are only now starting to be recognized for it.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
He's not quite there yet, but Wes Welker is real close to HOF consideration. I believe he's now tied with Rice and Harrison for the most career 100+ catch seasons.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>He's not quite there yet, but Wes Welker is real close to HOF consideration. I believe he's now tied with Rice and Harrison for the most career 100+ catch seasons. >>
I'd say he is at least 2-3 solid years away, just based on his current numbers and profile and how tough it is for WR's to make the HOF...Adding a Super Bowl ring this year would certainly help his case.
650 catches and 7200 yards, if he retired today he has no chance...2-3 more years his numbers and accolades should be much closer to a true HOFer.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My biggest issue w/ Walker is his yards per reception. This year he did a little better at 12.9 but his career average is 11.1, not very impressive. He's also not great at scoring w/ 33 career TD's.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>My biggest issue w/ Walker is his yards per reception. This year he did a little better at 12.9 but his career average is 11.1, not very impressive. He's also not a great at scoring w/ 33 career TD's. >>
Agreed...For me, I have 5 other active WR's who are closer to the HOF/Future HOFer set and would get my vote before Welker...And I'm not sold that any of these 5 are quite there just yet either, but certainly closer in my eyes:
Reggie Wayne Chad Ochocinco Andre Johnson Larry Fiitzgerald Steve Smith
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If you haven't caught the Namath Documentary/special on HBO yet I highly recommend it. Love him or hate him Namath was one of the best pure passers to ever play the game. Right up there with Marino. I knew about his injuries, but not the true level of pain he played through during his career. They actually show highlights from his pre-injury high shool and Alabama days. And Namath was actually an above average runner which I never knew since he was mostly immobile in his AFL/NFL years.
Anyway, if you get a chance to watch this you will be glad you did. You'll appreciate him alot more than looking at his stat sheet.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Lots of buzz for Parcells this week. Most of any of the finalists that I have heard. I would raise expectations that he will almost certainly take one of the 5 modern slots.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thanks for the update, Jason. Kinda what I figured. I still hate that they vote on players and coaches/administrators at the same time. I don't know how they can compare the worthiness of a player versus say an owner or coach. Oh well. Keep us posted. Love hearing the chatter leading up to the big day.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Thanks for the update, Jason. Kinda what I figured. I still hate that they vote on players and coaches/administrators at the same time. I don't know how they can compare the worthiness of a player versus say an owner or coach. Oh well. Keep us posted. Love hearing the chatter leading up to the big day. >>
They have talked for years about splitting them up into a separate categories like they did the Senior Candidates. If it happens, they are going to reduce the number of modern players each year or the number of Senior selections back to just 1 (which seems more likely and honestly makes more sense).
With no real slam dunk first ballot guys this year, its going to be somewhat of a crap shoot. Peter King is planning on publishing a column on Friday outlining his thoughts prior to the vote. Might get some insight there to the others. Let's all make our final predictions on Friday and see how we do.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>My biggest issue w/ Walker is his yards per reception. This year he did a little better at 12.9 but his career average is 11.1, not very impressive. He's also not a great at scoring w/ 33 career TD's. >>
Agreed...For me, I have 5 other active WR's who are closer to the HOF/Future HOFer set and would get my vote before Welker...And I'm not sold that any of these 5 are quite there just yet either, but certainly closer in my eyes:
Reggie Wayne Chad Ochocinco Andre Johnson Larry Fiitzgerald Steve Smith >>
It's funny, everyone thinks Andre Johnson is one of the best or maybe top three WR's in the game and he probably is, but compare his career to Anquan Boldin's. They have nearly identical resumes. Both entered the NFL in 2003, both have played nine years.
Stat lines: Andre Johnson - 3rd pick overall in 2003 draft, 122 games, 706 receptions, 9656 yards, 13.7 avg., 52 TD's. Three years over 100 receptions, five years over 1000 yards receiving, best TD years 9, 8, 8, 8. 5 pro bowls, 2 all-pro's, one year in the playoffs 2011, 2 games 13 rec, 201 yds, 1 td.
Boldin - 54th pick overall in 2003 draft, 125 games, 707 receptions, 9244 yds, 13.1 avg., 54 TDs Two years over 100 receptions, five years over 1000 yards, best TD years 11, 9, 8, 7, 7. 3 pro bowls, 3 years in playoffs, 7 games 30 rec, 426 yds, 3 tds.
Boldin has had the benefit of playing along side Fitzgerald for six years and playing five years with QB Kurt Warner.
Johnson hasn't really had another great WR on his team to take some pressure off of him. He's played several years with solid QB Matt Schaub. Johnson was more highly regarded coming into the NFL but really hasn't outplayed Boldin if you look only at there receiving numbers.
So either Boldin is very underrated or Johnson is slightly overrated, career wise. It looks like Johnson will have several more big years in Houston. Boldin seems to be trending downward a little. It hasn't helped that he plays for the Ravens and that he is the # 1 WR there will very little help on the other from the other WR, Derrick Mason now being retired.
IMO Welker is a product of the offense he is in. short passes. A stat accumulator. I have the utmost respect for Andy's opinion as he is definately a top notch FB player....but IMO not a wow HOF player.
Thank you for bringing up Namath Jason. I have said in many threads for years here how Namath was a ton better than his stats would lead you to think of him. I have seen old films of his running days at bama and he's no Randal Cunningham but better than average. His knees were like Bobby Orr's....wrapped up almost in a caste and hard to even walk on.
I have seen maybe 5 QB's in my lifetime that had his arm. An absolute rocket. It has been published he could throw end zone to end zone.
For sure there is something mystical about Namath. Why I ask is his 65 topps RC the holy grail of modern cards? (lets keep out scarcity and production #'s as psa 8's of other players can be worth more $). Its Mickey Mantlish. As someone doing the 65 set...and wish I had a psa 8 Namath.....its funny, John Huarte the Heisman winner and 65 topps rc in psa 8 is worth about $100, Namath is worth about 50X more. Both are on the Jets.
I hope to get to see that documentary. watch him play and see if you feel the same way about Namath after.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>My biggest issue w/ Walker is his yards per reception. This year he did a little better at 12.9 but his career average is 11.1, not very impressive. He's also not a great at scoring w/ 33 career TD's. >>
Agreed...For me, I have 5 other active WR's who are closer to the HOF/Future HOFer set and would get my vote before Welker...And I'm not sold that any of these 5 are quite there just yet either, but certainly closer in my eyes:
Reggie Wayne Chad Ochocinco Andre Johnson Larry Fiitzgerald Steve Smith >>
It's funny, everyone thinks Andre Johnson is one of the best or maybe top three WR's in the game and he probably is, but compare his career to Anquan Boldin's. They have nearly identical resumes. Both entered the NFL in 2003, both have played nine years.
Stat lines: Andre Johnson - 3rd pick overall in 2003 draft, 122 games, 706 receptions, 9656 yards, 13.7 avg., 52 TD's. Three years over 100 receptions, five years over 1000 yards receiving, best TD years 9, 8, 8, 8. 5 pro bowls, 2 all-pro's, one year in the playoffs 2011, 2 games 13 rec, 201 yds, 1 td.
Boldin - 54th pick overall in 2003 draft, 125 games, 707 receptions, 9244 yds, 13.1 avg., 54 TDs Two years over 100 receptions, five years over 1000 yards, best TD years 11, 9, 8, 7, 7. 3 pro bowls, 3 years in playoffs, 7 games 30 rec, 426 yds, 3 tds.
Boldin has had the benefit of playing along side Fitzgerald for six years and playing five years with QB Kurt Warner.
Johnson hasn't really had another great WR on his team to take some pressure off of him. He's played several years with solid QB Matt Schaub. Johnson was more highly regarded coming into the NFL but really hasn't outplayed Boldin if you look only at there receiving numbers.
So either Boldin is very underrated or Johnson is slightly overrated, career wise. It looks like Johnson will have several more big years in Houston. Boldin seems to be trending downward a little. It hasn't helped that he plays for the Ravens and that he is the # 1 WR there will very little help on the other from the other WR, Derrick Mason now being retired. >>
For me personally, I base it on what I see when I watch them play. Stats are only part of the picture. Boldin is a very good WR. Known to be a hard guy to tackle in the open field. But he's slow by most standards, and doesn't run the greatest routes. Although he has had some big games stat wise in his career, he's never really been an unstoppable or dominant guy for any extended period. Regardless of what the stats say. Johnson is the opposite. He simply dominates the DB's the same way Larry Fitzgerald does. Best way to see the difference is to watch some Cardinals footage when Boldin and Fitz played together. Boldin still got his stats, but you can see the difference in how the defenses had to play those 2 when they were playing together. The difference is night and day IMO.
And I am not the only one to see this. Johnson has 2 more Pro Bowls and 2 more first team all-pro selections OVER Boldin for a reason. It's not by accident or under/over ratedness...It's by performance above and beyond the stat line. Derrick Mason has a huge career stat line, was he a HOF talent at WR? Not even close...Average to mayyyyybe slight above average. The numbers might lead you to believe differently, but stats DO sometimes lie.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>IMO Welker is a product of the offense he is in. short passes. A stat accumulator. I have the utmost respect for Andy's opinion as he is definately a top notch FB player....but IMO not a wow HOF player. >>
I'm not a fan of the whole "product of the scheme" thing at all. In Welker's case, being part of a high-powered offense means that he snags 100+ passes for 1,000+ yards and often helps lead his team far into playoffs. That means he's a VERY GOOD PLAYER, not an interchangeable piece. The product of the scheme thing opens a huge can of worms. What if Jerry Rice didn't have Montana and Young throwing to him for most of his career? Would he still be considered perhaps the greatest player of all time? What if Emmitt Smith ran behind a different O line? Would he have broken Payton's record? I could go on, but my point is that you shouldn't be in any way dismissed for making the most of the opportunities presented to you within your offense or defense.
Back to Welker, as I said, I don't think he's there yet. But give me 2 more terrific Pro Bowl caliber years and I'm sold.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i> Back to Welker, as I said, I don't think he's there yet. But give me 2 more terrific Pro Bowl caliber years and I'm sold. >>
He also needs a Super Bowl ring, a Super Bowl MVP and/or around 350 more catches and 3,000 more yards to realistically have any chance. If he has 2 more seasons like he had this year, he would be at 894 catches, 10,364 yards, and 50 TDs...Stat wise alone, that's probably not going to be enough. But like I said, if he can add a Championship to his resume, or even better a Super Bowl MVP, then the numbers requirement will be a tad lower.
What you have to compare him to is an Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt. What does he need to get in fron of those guys in the HOF line. Because chances are, both Bruce and Holt will still be on the ballot when Welker comes available.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> Back to Welker, as I said, I don't think he's there yet. But give me 2 more terrific Pro Bowl caliber years and I'm sold. >>
He also needs a Super Bowl ring, a Super Bowl MVP and/or around 350 more catches and 3,000 more yards to realistically have any chance. If he has 2 more seasons like he had this year, he would be at 894 catches, 10,364 yards, and 50 TDs...Stat wise alone, that's probably not going to be enough. But like I said, if he can add a Championship to his resume, or even better a Super Bowl MVP, then the numbers requirement will be a tad lower.
What you have to compare him to is an Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt. What does he need to get in fron of those guys in the HOF line. Because chances are, both Bruce and Holt will still be on the ballot when Welker comes available.
Jason >>
I think Bruce will always be on the ballot until he moves to the Sr. selection committee. Holt will get in and I think Welker gets in with what Jason says above. I think if he does not win a ring but replaces it with a third first team all pro he is in for sure.
<< <i> Back to Welker, as I said, I don't think he's there yet. But give me 2 more terrific Pro Bowl caliber years and I'm sold. >>
He also needs a Super Bowl ring, a Super Bowl MVP and/or around 350 more catches and 3,000 more yards to realistically have any chance. If he has 2 more seasons like he had this year, he would be at 894 catches, 10,364 yards, and 50 TDs...Stat wise alone, that's probably not going to be enough. But like I said, if he can add a Championship to his resume, or even better a Super Bowl MVP, then the numbers requirement will be a tad lower.
What you have to compare him to is an Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt. What does he need to get in fron of those guys in the HOF line. Because chances are, both Bruce and Holt will still be on the ballot when Welker comes available.
Jason >>
When I compare him to Bruce I don't believe its even close. Welker might have the edge in All Pro's but Bruce's stats blow him away. I now its not the Hall of Stats but WR's should have mind blowing numbers not struggling to average 11 yards per catch and a few TD's a yew.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i> I think Bruce will always be on the ballot until he moves to the Sr. selection committee. Holt will get in and I think Welker gets in with what Jason says above. I think if he does not win a ring but replaces it with a third first team all pro he is in for sure. >>
How quickly do you think Holt gets in? He has good numbers, but like some of these others, they may get dwarfed by the time he comes up. Not to mention the huge stat lines that Moss and T.O. are going to bring to the table...I'm not sure on Holt. I do think he AND Bruce will get in, but I also think they each will wait a considerable amount of time. When they played together, Bruce was widely considered the more feared receiver, mostly due to how he was used. But he had more coverage rolled his way than Holt did.
Good point on Welker. Looking at my All-time All-Pro spreadsheet, the majority of of players with 4+ First Team All Pro's are in the HOF. I'd say somewhere in the 85-90% range. When you get to 3 First Team All-Pros, its more of a 50-50 proposition. I think it certainly would help Welker's case to have another, but if simply repeated this season next year, then never played again for some reason, I still don't think he gets in without a ring. There are just too many cases in the modern era of similar players never making the HOF, and very few, if any cases of WR's would rank where Welker would after 1 more big season who got in the HOF without a ring. If Carter, Reed or Tim Brown had a ring, they'd all be sitting in Canton right now. It carries alot of weight at some positions, and it seems WR is one of them. Not a pre-requisite of course, but consider this.
11 modern era WR's have been inducted into the HOF. Of those, 7 have Super Bowl Rings...The 4 who do not?
James Lofton Charlie Joiner Steve Largent Charley Taylor
Of these 4, THREE of them retired as the NFL All-time Receptions leader...The only one who did not is James Lofton. Who retired as the NFL All-Time Leader in receiving yards...
So for WR's, rings have shown to be very important. And the more you have, the less you need stat wise. 1 Super Bowl MVP tends to count almost like 4 First Team All-Pro's...Without it, you better have MONSTER stats. This is why Marvin Harrison is likely first ballot, and Holt and Bruce have very strong chances. Yet T.O, Moss with bigger stat lines and more baggage are going to be tough to overcome their lack of rings. Hines Ward with his Super Bowl MVP and multiple rings could retire today with his smaller stat line and fewer post-season honors and still not have to wait very long to get in.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> When I compare him to Bruce I don't believe its even close. Welker might have the edge in All Pro's but Bruce's stats blow him away. I now its not the Hall of Stats but WR's should have mind blowing numbers not struggling to average 11 yards per catch and a few TD's a yew. >>
Absolutely, great point. Bruce and his 15,000+ yards, a Super Bowl ring, not to mention being a part of probably the biggest offensive play of the Super Bowl win is going to go along way. IMO, further than the Pro Bowls and All-Pro accolades.
Welker needs that ring. He's already 30 and has quite a long way to go stat wise. A Super bowl MVP and he gets really close. But barring either/both of these things, he's going to need to finish with a MONSTER stat line and/or at least a 7PB-4AP profile...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Isaac Bruce is definitely a Hall-of-Famer in my book. To say that his stats blow Welker's away though, well not so much. Bruce never finished higher than 4th in the NFL in receptions, and only twice cracked the top 10. Welker has led the NFL in receptions THREE TIMES. He also finished second once. Product of the offense, low yards per catch, low TD totals, however you want to slice it, teams game plan to keep the ball out of Welker's hands and routinely fail. Belichick has said time several times that he brought Welker over to the Pats because his defenses couldn't cover him.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Isaac Bruce is definitely a Hall-of-Famer in my book. To say that his stats blow Welker's away though, well not so much. Bruce never finished higher than 4th in the NFL in receptions, and only twice cracked the top 10. Welker has led the NFL in receptions THREE TIMES. He also finished second once. Product of the offense, low yards per catch, low TD totals, however you want to slice it, teams game plan to keep the ball out of Welker's hands and routinely fail. Belichick has said time several times that he brought Welker over to the Pats because his defenses couldn't cover him. >>
Bruce finished top 5 in receiving yards 4 times..Welker currently ranks 106th on the all-time receiving yards list...Bruce is 3rd..
IMO, We will never see another WR go into the HOF with less than 10,000 yards...Just isn't going to happen with the numbers being put up in today's game. Welker needs almost 3,000 yards to get there...So 2 monster seasons before he even becomes a realistic possibility..Even if the Pats win and Welker is MVP...
26 players have over 10,00 receiving yards already. There are at least 4 more who will beat Welker there...There simply is no chance that a receiver who isn't in the top 40 in receiving yards gets elected to the HOF, regardless of his number of receptions.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Del Shoftner only played 7 years: 5 pb and 5 1st team AP was 1/2 ibest n receiving in those 5 years. Was up there in Yards, catches, and yards/catch, yards/game usually top 3 in category or better. He was adecent punter besides.
5 AP and nobody ever mentions the HOF in fact nobody ever mentions him at all.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I don't think that number of receptions means that much anymore. Yardage is the key. Bruce is #3 in All-Time receiving yardage, was a key contributor to a Super Bowl win for his team (and played in another Super Bowl as well), and was known as a great team guy (unlike Mr. Owens, who is #2). The Pro Bowls... well, I wonder about that. Bruce went to only four. Guess what year he did NOT go? 1995. That year he had 119 catches for 1781 yards and 13 touchdowns. If you aren't in the Pro Bowl with numbers like that, we can't fault Isaac Bruce. Isaac Bruce has one thing IMO going for him and one going against him. Against him, he was never perceived as big a star as the Randy Moss/Terrell Owens guys. Bruce was so quiet and humble, that he never brought attention upon himself. So, people don't think of him as a huge star. At the same time, Bruce was a glue guy on those great Rams teams. He was the spiritual leader of those teams. AND he was always polite and honest with fans and sportswriters. Now, I know that the HOF is not supposed to take character into consideration. But, when Randy Moss goes against Isaac Bruce in voting, are the members of the committee going to remember which guy was the guy who was the kind of guy you'd want your daughter to marry and which guy was the one who was frequently a giant PITA? I think they might.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
yeah he was great. Little notoriety playing in Arizona all those years. Really would have helped if he would have won a Super Bowl in St. Louis. >>
If you look over the CB's from the 1990's, its Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson, Aeneas Williams, who were the top 3...The first 2 were 1st ballot HOFers, Williams won't be to far behind..By my projections I have him going into the HOF in the Class of 2016.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As stated a couple of days ago, Parcells is looking like the strongest lock this year, I'm calling him 99%. Curtis Martin is sounding like the 2nd best bet, he seems to be distancing from Bettis. I'll give him a 75% shot. After these 2 its going to be very interesting...This is what I am hearing through the grapevine..
Cortez Kennedy vs. Charles Haley...I still have to think Kennedy is the guy, just based on how close he was last year to making the final 5...But Haley is getting a good push from multiple voters..Could be an upset here. Kennedy at 60% chance, but the gap here is closing.
Dermontti Dawson vs. Willie Roaf....Shields is a distant 3rd here, and I do not believe Shields will make the cut to 10. Strong cases for both Dawson and Roaf. Dawson has waited the longest, but Roaf has the backing of multiple voters, I'm guessing due to being dominant for multiple franchises...This one is really 50/50, flip a coin...
Andre Reed vs. Cris Carter...These 2 are clearly ahead of Tim Brown this year. Reed has been closer the last couple, and is likely still going to be the pick...Carter being in the ESPN spotlight may help him with some of the newer voters in the room though...Going to give Reed a very small 55-45 edge. Still think he has enough backing.
Any of the other 7 will be a severe longshot at this point....But as we have seen, it seems like the go for a longshot every year. Keep an eye out for Peter King's article due to be published on Friday. I know that he has spoken to quite a few of the voters to gauge opinions and he should be able to give some nice insight.
In 2013, Jon Ogden, Larry Allen, Michael Strahan, Warren Sapp, Morten Andersen, John Lynch, and Rueben Brown join the field...Going to be rough on whichever O-Line and D-Line guys who don't get in this year. Ogden, Allen, Strahan and Sapp are going to jump to the head of the line at their positions...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I would agree with that. Any voter that wouldn't back those four would lose all credibility with me. Those are the kinds of players that the Hall of Fame is supposed to contain.
Keep an eye on Doleman, Haley and Greene as the darkhorses...One OR possibly two of these could steal any modern candidate's spot not named Parcells....The pass rusher love will continue I guess...Going to be a travesty if Kennedy AGAIN gets passed over a pass rusher...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I would agree with that. Any voter that wouldn't back those four would lose all credibility with me. Those are the kinds of players that the Hall of Fame is supposed to contain. >>
What's tough is that the odds of having FOUR 1st ballot guys next year are extremely low...One of them likely has to wait another year..Just the how the game goes right now with such a backlog of deserving modern candidates coming eligible the next few years. To me, I'd rather see great deserving players wait a year than expanding the classes to 10 or something and end up with every borderline player going in on their first try...Keeps it interesting and exclusive...Except for the mistakes (like Fred Dean)...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
We all talk about dominance when talking about the HOF. Bruce RARELY finished in the top 10 in major WR categories over his 16 year career. If you throw out his first and last years in the league he had 42 chances to finish in the top 10 of Receptions, Yards, and TD's in the NFL. He finished in the top 10 of these stats 9 times out of 42 chances or 21.4%. If you keep all of his years he only finished in the top 10 18.7% of the time.
A dominance stat to me (my opinion) is finishing in the top 3 of the NFL in a certain major receiving stat. In Bruce's case he finished in the top three 4 out of 48 attempts or 12 %
Holt on the other hand finished in the top 10 of the same categories 17 times in his 11 year career for a 51.5% rate. If you throw out his first and last years (which were not that bad) he finishes with a whopping 62.9%. If you take my top three example he finished at an 18.2% clip.
I know it is not the Hall of Stats but when you have two players from the same team trying to get into the HOF from the same era, it is tough. Just talk to Jerry Kramer.
Lastly if you compare their stats when they played on the same team Holt is even further ahead, which makes me beg to differ that Bruce was main target of the offense. From 1999 to 2007.
Bruce - Rec-630 Yds-9446 TD-55 Holt - Rec-805 Yds-11864 TD-71
Holt had an average of 90 receptions, 1318 yds and 7.9 TD's compared to Bruces's 70 receptions, 1050 yds and 6.1 TD's
Yes Bruce was good but he was not dominant like Holt. I understand he has a huge career stats for receptions and yards. But all of these numbers are getting surpassed by average players. Derrick Mason, Jimmy Smith and Keenan McCardell all have amazing stats but will not get a sniff from the HOF because they were just average. They are not passing Bruce but I just pointing out the other players that have had Bruce's Career similar numbers.
My last point, remember how many people were vying for Art Mont to get in? Bruce does not have the following or support.
This is my two, well probably three cents worth about Bruce.
<< <i>..Except for the mistakes (like Fred Dean)...
Jason >>
I would like to add Floyd Little to this list also. >>
Little was a Senior candidate. Which by default they can all be considered borderline and/or mistakes since they never made it in 25 years as modern candidates. That being said, the senior guys don't steal spots from modern candidates. So putting a weaker candidate like Little in didn't mean another guy got bumped. Dean however took the spot of a handful of much more deserving players. And I won't be hocked if it happens again with another pass rusher. I don't get it.
Anyway, here is the Peter King column. Some interesting thoughts from an actual voter. Ten Hall of Fame thoughts on the eve of the vote for the Class of 2012, which is scheduled for 9 a.m. Saturday in downtown Indianapolis: 1. Momentum building for Eddie DeBartolo, who has had some heavy-hitters, including former Niner exec Carmen Policy, campaigning hard for him. It'll be interesting to see if being the most beloved owner by his players carries a lot of weight. DeBartolo didn't do as much for the league as a whole as a Bob Kraft, Art Modell or Dan Rooney, but he did run a great team for a long time. 2. Bill Parcells probably should be a favorite to make it (10th all-time in wins, two Super Bowl wins, took four franchises to the playoffs), but you never know how much momentum new guys will have in the room among the 44 voters. Some of the voters aren't fond of the pric-ly Parcells, but he does have more wins than the four coaches -- Marv Levy, George Allen, John Madden and Hank Stram -- who've been enshrined since 2000, and none of them have more Super Bowl rings than Parcells. 3. Maybe I'm naïve, but I think this is the year the wide receiver logjam gets broken. I see Andre Reed getting in, though I believe Cris Carter is more deserving. 4. No locks in an off year for the Hall, but Steelers center Dermontti Dawson looks like the leader in the clubhouse to me. 5. Next man up, after Dawson? Charles Haley looks like he could be this year's Richard Dent -- the guy who was close for a long time and finally got in, in part because voters are trying to make sure they don't perpetuate the mistake of the past by electing far more offensive players than defensive. 6. Next: Willie Roaf, Curtis Martin (who seems to have more momentum than Jerome Bettis). After that, it's totally jumbled. Parcells would be my best guess. 7. I still think Cortez Kennedy and Kevin Greene, who've been lost in the shuffle over the years, are very strong candidates and would be deserving selections. 8. Interesting class of 2013 candidates could make this a must year for some of the bubble candidates. Michael Strahan, Jonathan Ogden and Warren Sapp come up for election next year. 9. I could see the five modern-era slots yield fewer than five Hall of Famers. The way the voting works is each of the five finalists is voted on in secret ballot by the 44 Hall selectors. If 80 percent of the voters say yes for a candidate, he's in. Less than 80, he's out. So nine "no" votes on a finalist scuttles him. 10. I expect a long meeting. Seven hours, maybe. NFL Network airs the results live at 5:30 p.m., and you'll know when I do. We walk out of the room not knowing which of the five modern-era finalists and two Seniors candidates make it.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Rather than the argument being made that Bruce is not dominant, I prefer to look at it from the other side. Isaac Bruce was one of the best receivers of his time. Yet, Torry Holt over the course of 2000-2007 actually had better numbers. This doesn't mean Isaac Bruce wasn't as great as advertised. This means that Torry Holt (for that period of time) was a beast! I'd have no issue with the entire "Greatest Show on Turf" foursome of Faulk, Holt, Bruce, and Warner (and for that matter, Orlando Pace) being enshrined in Canton. They were THAT good.
<< <i>8. Interesting class of 2013 candidates could make this a must year for some of the bubble candidates. Michael Strahan, Jonathan Ogden and Warren Sapp come up for election next year. >>
Hopefully it was just an oversight that King didn't mention Larry Allen here. I think he's the biggest slam dunk of all the first-ballot players next year. Ogden's right there with him. I wouldn't mind seeing Strahan and/or Sapp wait a bit.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
IMO this season helps Shane Lechler's chances of being the first punter selected to the HOF - his 7th Pro Bowl, and a 2nd team All-Pro selection (2 of those, to go with 6 1st team picks), plus the definitive answer on how to punt to Devin Hester (if you haven't seen the video, Lechler boomed an 80-yard punt that had Hester sprinting backward like a center fielder going after a long fly ball, with the ball still landing past his outstretched arms).
At some point, you may no longer have 9 guys among the HOF voters who feel no punters should ever go. When that time comes, it's hard to argue with the guy with the best gross average in history (by over a yard a punt).
<< <i>IMO this season helps Shane Lechler's chances of being the first punter selected to the HOF - his 7th Pro Bowl, and a 2nd team All-Pro selection (2 of those, to go with 6 1st team picks), plus the definitive answer on how to punt to Devin Hester (if you haven't seen the video, Lechler boomed an 80-yard punt that had Hester sprinting backward like a center fielder going after a long fly ball, with the ball still landing past his outstretched arms).
At some point, you may no longer have 9 guys among the HOF voters who feel no punters should ever go. When that time comes, it's hard to argue with the guy with the best gross average in history (by over a yard a punt).
Nick >>
Agreed. He definitely has a stronger case than Ray Guy.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If Lechler gets on the ballot at some point and Ray Guy isn't already in, how can Ray Guy get elected? He not only isn't the best punter ever, he isn't even the best punter ever on his own team.
<< <i>If Lechler gets on the ballot at some point and Ray Guy isn't already in, how can Ray Guy get elected? He not only isn't the best punter ever, he isn't even the best punter ever on his own team. >>
If Ray Guy isn't the first Punter, he will never get elected. He's no longer eligible as a modern candidate, only can be selected by the Senior Committee.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Sammy Baugh stil has the single season record for yards/punt at 51.4 for 70 years now. Man was he ever a phenom
No ray guy bashing allowed here !!!!!!!
Ray Guy kicked them high . I mean stratospere. not the longest.
Lechler is in a class by himself. I believe Guy deserves the Hall...but Lechler is making short work of him. He's still in his prime and could be 1st team AP for quite a few times more. Possibly the most ever for a position. They will have to achnowledge the punter at that point.
Is ther records on least return yards from punts allowed?
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Sammy Baugh stil has the single season record for yards/punt at 51.4 for 70 years now. Man was he ever a phenom
No ray guy bashing allowed here !!!!!!!
Ray Guy kicked them high . I mean stratospere. not the longest.
Lechler is in a class by himself. I believe Guy deserves the Hall...but Lechler is making short work of him. He's still in his prime and could be 1st team AP for quite a few times more. Possibly the most ever for a position. They will have to achnowledge the punter at that point.
Is ther records on least return yards from punts allowed? >>
Yes, they call it NET yards.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Well, I'll take my shot at trying to pick this years class. Have to admit, if I don't hit on FIVE or more of these, I will be VERY surprised. I think BOTH Senior nominees, ( Jack Butler and Dick Stanfel ) make it. As for the modern nominees, I am going with Bill Parcells, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed, and Cortez Kennedy. P.S. I did get SIX out of seven correct last year. My only mistake, I picked Willie Roaf instead of Shannon Sharpe. Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
Dick Stanfel Jack Butler Bill Parcells Curtis Martin Cortez Kennedy Dermontti Dawson Andre Reed
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
<< <i>Looks like someone requested Donnie Shell be added to the HOF-Modern set. I am assuming this was a mistake, as Shell is not among the list of 15 modern finalists, and this was his final year as a modern candidate. He will now only be considered as a SENIOR candidate. I let Gayle know that Shell is no longer eligible for the Modern set, hopefully she will make the fix.
I wouldn't have voted for his addition to the modern set even if he were still eligible. He's more of a longshot candidate and would not fit the modern set IMO. I think he is worthy of addition to the Senior set, being a previous Finalist.
Jason >>
Look at the bright side, at least it was not Sam Cunningham or Louis Lipps :-)
<< <i>
<< <i>Looks like someone requested Donnie Shell be added to the HOF-Modern set. I am assuming this was a mistake, as Shell is not among the list of 15 modern finalists, and this was his final year as a modern candidate. He will now only be considered as a SENIOR candidate. I let Gayle know that Shell is no longer eligible for the Modern set, hopefully she will make the fix.
I wouldn't have voted for his addition to the modern set even if he were still eligible. He's more of a longshot candidate and would not fit the modern set IMO. I think he is worthy of addition to the Senior set, being a previous Finalist.
Jason >>
Look at the bright side, at least it was not Sam Cunningham or Louis Lipps :-) >>
Well, they all kinda seem to fall in the same category...Cards that don't belong on the sets they are being requested...I wouldn't be shocked if Shell gets the votes and is added. Honestly, think it will be hilarious, and in someways fitting to where the Registry has gone the past few years...lol
I'm thinking of requesting Deion Sanders to the Baseball HOF Rookie set...He's a HOFer and played baseball right? Makes TOTAL sense...Let's not let the baseball guys off scott free. Misery loves company right? (Just kidding about do that, but I would bet that PSA would send out the poll..lol)
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I realize Fletcher and Smith lack career accolades but they are two of the best players at their positions. Both have played at high levels for most of their careers but are only now starting to be recognized for it.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>He's not quite there yet, but Wes Welker is real close to HOF consideration. I believe he's now tied with Rice and Harrison for the most career 100+ catch seasons. >>
I'd say he is at least 2-3 solid years away, just based on his current numbers and profile and how tough it is for WR's to make the HOF...Adding a Super Bowl ring this year would certainly help his case.
650 catches and 7200 yards, if he retired today he has no chance...2-3 more years his numbers and accolades should be much closer to a true HOFer.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>My biggest issue w/ Walker is his yards per reception. This year he did a little better at 12.9 but his career average is 11.1, not very impressive. He's also not a great at scoring w/ 33 career TD's. >>
Agreed...For me, I have 5 other active WR's who are closer to the HOF/Future HOFer set and would get my vote before Welker...And I'm not sold that any of these 5 are quite there just yet either, but certainly closer in my eyes:
Reggie Wayne
Chad Ochocinco
Andre Johnson
Larry Fiitzgerald
Steve Smith
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Anyway, if you get a chance to watch this you will be glad you did. You'll appreciate him alot more than looking at his stat sheet.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Thanks for the update, Jason. Kinda what I figured. I still hate that they vote on players and coaches/administrators at the same time. I don't know how they can compare the worthiness of a player versus say an owner or coach. Oh well. Keep us posted. Love hearing the chatter leading up to the big day. >>
They have talked for years about splitting them up into a separate categories like they did the Senior Candidates. If it happens, they are going to reduce the number of modern players each year or the number of Senior selections back to just 1 (which seems more likely and honestly makes more sense).
With no real slam dunk first ballot guys this year, its going to be somewhat of a crap shoot. Peter King is planning on publishing a column on Friday outlining his thoughts prior to the vote. Might get some insight there to the others. Let's all make our final predictions on Friday and see how we do.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>My biggest issue w/ Walker is his yards per reception. This year he did a little better at 12.9 but his career average is 11.1, not very impressive. He's also not a great at scoring w/ 33 career TD's. >>
Agreed...For me, I have 5 other active WR's who are closer to the HOF/Future HOFer set and would get my vote before Welker...And I'm not sold that any of these 5 are quite there just yet either, but certainly closer in my eyes:
Reggie Wayne
Chad Ochocinco
Andre Johnson
Larry Fiitzgerald
Steve Smith >>
It's funny, everyone thinks Andre Johnson is one of the best or maybe top three WR's in the game
and he probably is, but compare his career to Anquan Boldin's. They have nearly identical resumes.
Both entered the NFL in 2003, both have played nine years.
Stat lines:
Andre Johnson - 3rd pick overall in 2003 draft,
122 games, 706 receptions, 9656 yards, 13.7 avg., 52 TD's.
Three years over 100 receptions, five years over 1000 yards receiving, best TD years 9, 8, 8, 8.
5 pro bowls, 2 all-pro's, one year in the playoffs 2011, 2 games 13 rec, 201 yds, 1 td.
Boldin - 54th pick overall in 2003 draft,
125 games, 707 receptions, 9244 yds, 13.1 avg., 54 TDs
Two years over 100 receptions, five years over 1000 yards, best TD years 11, 9, 8, 7, 7.
3 pro bowls, 3 years in playoffs, 7 games 30 rec, 426 yds, 3 tds.
Boldin has had the benefit of playing along side Fitzgerald for six years and playing
five years with QB Kurt Warner.
Johnson hasn't really had another great WR on his team to take some pressure off
of him. He's played several years with solid QB Matt Schaub. Johnson was more highly
regarded coming into the NFL but really hasn't outplayed Boldin if you look only at there
receiving numbers.
So either Boldin is very underrated or Johnson is slightly overrated, career wise.
It looks like Johnson will have several more big years in Houston. Boldin seems to
be trending downward a little. It hasn't helped that he plays for the Ravens and
that he is the # 1 WR there will very little help on the other from the other WR, Derrick
Mason now being retired.
IMO Welker is a product of the offense he is in. short passes. A stat accumulator.
I have the utmost respect for Andy's opinion as he is definately a top notch FB player....but IMO not a wow HOF player.
Thank you for bringing up Namath Jason. I have said in many threads for years here how Namath was a ton better than
his stats would lead you to think of him. I have seen old films of his running days at bama and he's no Randal Cunningham but
better than average. His knees were like Bobby Orr's....wrapped up almost in a caste and hard to even walk on.
I have seen maybe 5 QB's in my lifetime that had his arm. An absolute rocket. It has been published he could throw end zone to end zone.
For sure there is something mystical about Namath. Why I ask is his 65 topps RC the holy grail of modern cards? (lets keep out scarcity and production #'s as psa 8's of other players can be worth more $). Its Mickey Mantlish. As someone doing the 65 set...and wish I had a psa 8 Namath.....its funny, John Huarte the Heisman winner and 65 topps rc in psa 8 is worth about $100, Namath is worth about 50X more. Both are on the Jets.
I hope to get to see that documentary. watch him play and see if you feel the same way about Namath after.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>My biggest issue w/ Walker is his yards per reception. This year he did a little better at 12.9 but his career average is 11.1, not very impressive. He's also not a great at scoring w/ 33 career TD's. >>
Agreed...For me, I have 5 other active WR's who are closer to the HOF/Future HOFer set and would get my vote before Welker...And I'm not sold that any of these 5 are quite there just yet either, but certainly closer in my eyes:
Reggie Wayne
Chad Ochocinco
Andre Johnson
Larry Fiitzgerald
Steve Smith >>
It's funny, everyone thinks Andre Johnson is one of the best or maybe top three WR's in the game
and he probably is, but compare his career to Anquan Boldin's. They have nearly identical resumes.
Both entered the NFL in 2003, both have played nine years.
Stat lines:
Andre Johnson - 3rd pick overall in 2003 draft,
122 games, 706 receptions, 9656 yards, 13.7 avg., 52 TD's.
Three years over 100 receptions, five years over 1000 yards receiving, best TD years 9, 8, 8, 8.
5 pro bowls, 2 all-pro's, one year in the playoffs 2011, 2 games 13 rec, 201 yds, 1 td.
Boldin - 54th pick overall in 2003 draft,
125 games, 707 receptions, 9244 yds, 13.1 avg., 54 TDs
Two years over 100 receptions, five years over 1000 yards, best TD years 11, 9, 8, 7, 7.
3 pro bowls, 3 years in playoffs, 7 games 30 rec, 426 yds, 3 tds.
Boldin has had the benefit of playing along side Fitzgerald for six years and playing
five years with QB Kurt Warner.
Johnson hasn't really had another great WR on his team to take some pressure off
of him. He's played several years with solid QB Matt Schaub. Johnson was more highly
regarded coming into the NFL but really hasn't outplayed Boldin if you look only at there
receiving numbers.
So either Boldin is very underrated or Johnson is slightly overrated, career wise.
It looks like Johnson will have several more big years in Houston. Boldin seems to
be trending downward a little. It hasn't helped that he plays for the Ravens and
that he is the # 1 WR there will very little help on the other from the other WR, Derrick
Mason now being retired. >>
For me personally, I base it on what I see when I watch them play. Stats are only part of the picture. Boldin is a very good WR. Known to be a hard guy to tackle in the open field. But he's slow by most standards, and doesn't run the greatest routes. Although he has had some big games stat wise in his career, he's never really been an unstoppable or dominant guy for any extended period. Regardless of what the stats say. Johnson is the opposite. He simply dominates the DB's the same way Larry Fitzgerald does. Best way to see the difference is to watch some Cardinals footage when Boldin and Fitz played together. Boldin still got his stats, but you can see the difference in how the defenses had to play those 2 when they were playing together. The difference is night and day IMO.
And I am not the only one to see this. Johnson has 2 more Pro Bowls and 2 more first team all-pro selections OVER Boldin for a reason. It's not by accident or under/over ratedness...It's by performance above and beyond the stat line. Derrick Mason has a huge career stat line, was he a HOF talent at WR? Not even close...Average to mayyyyybe slight above average. The numbers might lead you to believe differently, but stats DO sometimes lie.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The guy seems to catch what is thrown to him and an uncanny ability to get open.
Eli's savior this year for sure.
SB: pats by 7
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>IMO Welker is a product of the offense he is in. short passes. A stat accumulator.
I have the utmost respect for Andy's opinion as he is definately a top notch FB player....but IMO not a wow HOF player. >>
I'm not a fan of the whole "product of the scheme" thing at all. In Welker's case, being part of a high-powered offense means that he snags 100+ passes for 1,000+ yards and often helps lead his team far into playoffs. That means he's a VERY GOOD PLAYER, not an interchangeable piece. The product of the scheme thing opens a huge can of worms. What if Jerry Rice didn't have Montana and Young throwing to him for most of his career? Would he still be considered perhaps the greatest player of all time? What if Emmitt Smith ran behind a different O line? Would he have broken Payton's record? I could go on, but my point is that you shouldn't be in any way dismissed for making the most of the opportunities presented to you within your offense or defense.
Back to Welker, as I said, I don't think he's there yet. But give me 2 more terrific Pro Bowl caliber years and I'm sold.
<< <i>
Back to Welker, as I said, I don't think he's there yet. But give me 2 more terrific Pro Bowl caliber years and I'm sold. >>
He also needs a Super Bowl ring, a Super Bowl MVP and/or around 350 more catches and 3,000 more yards to realistically have any chance. If he has 2 more seasons like he had this year, he would be at 894 catches, 10,364 yards, and 50 TDs...Stat wise alone, that's probably not going to be enough. But like I said, if he can add a Championship to his resume, or even better a Super Bowl MVP, then the numbers requirement will be a tad lower.
What you have to compare him to is an Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt. What does he need to get in fron of those guys in the HOF line. Because chances are, both Bruce and Holt will still be on the ballot when Welker comes available.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Back to Welker, as I said, I don't think he's there yet. But give me 2 more terrific Pro Bowl caliber years and I'm sold. >>
He also needs a Super Bowl ring, a Super Bowl MVP and/or around 350 more catches and 3,000 more yards to realistically have any chance. If he has 2 more seasons like he had this year, he would be at 894 catches, 10,364 yards, and 50 TDs...Stat wise alone, that's probably not going to be enough. But like I said, if he can add a Championship to his resume, or even better a Super Bowl MVP, then the numbers requirement will be a tad lower.
What you have to compare him to is an Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt. What does he need to get in fron of those guys in the HOF line. Because chances are, both Bruce and Holt will still be on the ballot when Welker comes available.
Jason >>
I think Bruce will always be on the ballot until he moves to the Sr. selection committee. Holt will get in and I think Welker gets in with what Jason says above. I think if he does not win a ring but replaces it with a third first team all pro he is in for sure.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Back to Welker, as I said, I don't think he's there yet. But give me 2 more terrific Pro Bowl caliber years and I'm sold. >>
He also needs a Super Bowl ring, a Super Bowl MVP and/or around 350 more catches and 3,000 more yards to realistically have any chance. If he has 2 more seasons like he had this year, he would be at 894 catches, 10,364 yards, and 50 TDs...Stat wise alone, that's probably not going to be enough. But like I said, if he can add a Championship to his resume, or even better a Super Bowl MVP, then the numbers requirement will be a tad lower.
What you have to compare him to is an Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt. What does he need to get in fron of those guys in the HOF line. Because chances are, both Bruce and Holt will still be on the ballot when Welker comes available.
Jason >>
When I compare him to Bruce I don't believe its even close. Welker might have the edge in All Pro's but Bruce's stats blow him away. I now its not the Hall of Stats but WR's should have mind blowing numbers not struggling to average 11 yards per catch and a few TD's a yew.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
I think Bruce will always be on the ballot until he moves to the Sr. selection committee. Holt will get in and I think Welker gets in with what Jason says above. I think if he does not win a ring but replaces it with a third first team all pro he is in for sure. >>
How quickly do you think Holt gets in? He has good numbers, but like some of these others, they may get dwarfed by the time he comes up. Not to mention the huge stat lines that Moss and T.O. are going to bring to the table...I'm not sure on Holt. I do think he AND Bruce will get in, but I also think they each will wait a considerable amount of time. When they played together, Bruce was widely considered the more feared receiver, mostly due to how he was used. But he had more coverage rolled his way than Holt did.
Good point on Welker. Looking at my All-time All-Pro spreadsheet, the majority of of players with 4+ First Team All Pro's are in the HOF. I'd say somewhere in the 85-90% range. When you get to 3 First Team All-Pros, its more of a 50-50 proposition. I think it certainly would help Welker's case to have another, but if simply repeated this season next year, then never played again for some reason, I still don't think he gets in without a ring. There are just too many cases in the modern era of similar players never making the HOF, and very few, if any cases of WR's would rank where Welker would after 1 more big season who got in the HOF without a ring. If Carter, Reed or Tim Brown had a ring, they'd all be sitting in Canton right now. It carries alot of weight at some positions, and it seems WR is one of them. Not a pre-requisite of course, but consider this.
11 modern era WR's have been inducted into the HOF. Of those, 7 have Super Bowl Rings...The 4 who do not?
James Lofton
Charlie Joiner
Steve Largent
Charley Taylor
Of these 4, THREE of them retired as the NFL All-time Receptions leader...The only one who did not is James Lofton. Who retired as the NFL All-Time Leader in receiving yards...
So for WR's, rings have shown to be very important. And the more you have, the less you need stat wise. 1 Super Bowl MVP tends to count almost like 4 First Team All-Pro's...Without it, you better have MONSTER stats. This is why Marvin Harrison is likely first ballot, and Holt and Bruce have very strong chances. Yet T.O, Moss with bigger stat lines and more baggage are going to be tough to overcome their lack of rings. Hines Ward with his Super Bowl MVP and multiple rings could retire today with his smaller stat line and fewer post-season honors and still not have to wait very long to get in.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
When I compare him to Bruce I don't believe its even close. Welker might have the edge in All Pro's but Bruce's stats blow him away. I now its not the Hall of Stats but WR's should have mind blowing numbers not struggling to average 11 yards per catch and a few TD's a yew. >>
Absolutely, great point. Bruce and his 15,000+ yards, a Super Bowl ring, not to mention being a part of probably the biggest offensive play of the Super Bowl win is going to go along way. IMO, further than the Pro Bowls and All-Pro accolades.
Welker needs that ring. He's already 30 and has quite a long way to go stat wise. A Super bowl MVP and he gets really close. But barring either/both of these things, he's going to need to finish with a MONSTER stat line and/or at least a 7PB-4AP profile...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Isaac Bruce is definitely a Hall-of-Famer in my book. To say that his stats blow Welker's away though, well not so much. Bruce never finished higher than 4th in the NFL in receptions, and only twice cracked the top 10. Welker has led the NFL in receptions THREE TIMES. He also finished second once. Product of the offense, low yards per catch, low TD totals, however you want to slice it, teams game plan to keep the ball out of Welker's hands and routinely fail. Belichick has said time several times that he brought Welker over to the Pats because his defenses couldn't cover him. >>
Bruce finished top 5 in receiving yards 4 times..Welker currently ranks 106th on the all-time receiving yards list...Bruce is 3rd..
IMO, We will never see another WR go into the HOF with less than 10,000 yards...Just isn't going to happen with the numbers being put up in today's game. Welker needs almost 3,000 yards to get there...So 2 monster seasons before he even becomes a realistic possibility..Even if the Pats win and Welker is MVP...
26 players have over 10,00 receiving yards already. There are at least 4 more who will beat Welker there...There simply is no chance that a receiver who isn't in the top 40 in receiving yards gets elected to the HOF, regardless of his number of receptions.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
only played 7 years: 5 pb and 5 1st team AP
was 1/2 ibest n receiving in those 5 years. Was up there in Yards, catches, and yards/catch, yards/game usually top 3 in category or better.
He was adecent punter besides.
5 AP and nobody ever mentions the HOF in fact nobody ever mentions him at all.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Isaac Bruce has one thing IMO going for him and one going against him. Against him, he was never perceived as big a star as the Randy Moss/Terrell Owens guys. Bruce was so quiet and humble, that he never brought attention upon himself. So, people don't think of him as a huge star. At the same time, Bruce was a glue guy on those great Rams teams. He was the spiritual leader of those teams. AND he was always polite and honest with fans and sportswriters. Now, I know that the HOF is not supposed to take character into consideration. But, when Randy Moss goes against Isaac Bruce in voting, are the members of the committee going to remember which guy was the guy who was the kind of guy you'd want your daughter to marry and which guy was the one who was frequently a giant PITA? I think they might.
Aeneas Williams Video
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
a HOF er for sure and well deserving
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Nice little video piece on Aeneas Williams. Look forward to seeing him inducted one of these days.
Aeneas Williams Video >>
yeah he was great. Little notoriety playing in Arizona all those years. Really would have helped if he would have won a Super Bowl in St. Louis.
<< <i>
<< <i>Nice little video piece on Aeneas Williams. Look forward to seeing him inducted one of these days.
Aeneas Williams Video >>
yeah he was great. Little notoriety playing in Arizona all those years. Really would have helped if he would have won a Super Bowl in St. Louis. >>
If you look over the CB's from the 1990's, its Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson, Aeneas Williams, who were the top 3...The first 2 were 1st ballot HOFers, Williams won't be to far behind..By my projections I have him going into the HOF in the Class of 2016.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As stated a couple of days ago, Parcells is looking like the strongest lock this year, I'm calling him 99%. Curtis Martin is sounding like the 2nd best bet, he seems to be distancing from Bettis. I'll give him a 75% shot. After these 2 its going to be very interesting...This is what I am hearing through the grapevine..
Cortez Kennedy vs. Charles Haley...I still have to think Kennedy is the guy, just based on how close he was last year to making the final 5...But Haley is getting a good push from multiple voters..Could be an upset here. Kennedy at 60% chance, but the gap here is closing.
Dermontti Dawson vs. Willie Roaf....Shields is a distant 3rd here, and I do not believe Shields will make the cut to 10. Strong cases for both Dawson and Roaf. Dawson has waited the longest, but Roaf has the backing of multiple voters, I'm guessing due to being dominant for multiple franchises...This one is really 50/50, flip a coin...
Andre Reed vs. Cris Carter...These 2 are clearly ahead of Tim Brown this year. Reed has been closer the last couple, and is likely still going to be the pick...Carter being in the ESPN spotlight may help him with some of the newer voters in the room though...Going to give Reed a very small 55-45 edge. Still think he has enough backing.
Any of the other 7 will be a severe longshot at this point....But as we have seen, it seems like the go for a longshot every year. Keep an eye out for Peter King's article due to be published on Friday. I know that he has spoken to quite a few of the voters to gauge opinions and he should be able to give some nice insight.
In 2013, Jon Ogden, Larry Allen, Michael Strahan, Warren Sapp, Morten Andersen, John Lynch, and Rueben Brown join the field...Going to be rough on whichever O-Line and D-Line guys who don't get in this year. Ogden, Allen, Strahan and Sapp are going to jump to the head of the line at their positions...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Keep an eye on Doleman, Haley and Greene as the darkhorses...One OR possibly two of these could steal any modern candidate's spot not named Parcells....The pass rusher love will continue I guess...Going to be a travesty if Kennedy AGAIN gets passed over a pass rusher...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I would agree with that. Any voter that wouldn't back those four would lose all credibility with me. Those are the kinds of players that the Hall of Fame is supposed to contain. >>
What's tough is that the odds of having FOUR 1st ballot guys next year are extremely low...One of them likely has to wait another year..Just the how the game goes right now with such a backlog of deserving modern candidates coming eligible the next few years. To me, I'd rather see great deserving players wait a year than expanding the classes to 10 or something and end up with every borderline player going in on their first try...Keeps it interesting and exclusive...Except for the mistakes (like Fred Dean)...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
We all talk about dominance when talking about the HOF. Bruce RARELY finished in the top 10 in major WR categories over his 16 year career. If you throw out his first and last years in the league he had 42 chances to finish in the top 10 of Receptions, Yards, and TD's in the NFL. He finished in the top 10 of these stats 9 times out of 42 chances or 21.4%. If you keep all of his years he only finished in the top 10 18.7% of the time.
A dominance stat to me (my opinion) is finishing in the top 3 of the NFL in a certain major receiving stat. In Bruce's case he finished in the top three 4 out of 48 attempts or 12 %
Holt on the other hand finished in the top 10 of the same categories 17 times in his 11 year career for a 51.5% rate. If you throw out his first and last years (which were not that bad) he finishes with a whopping 62.9%. If you take my top three example he finished at an 18.2% clip.
I know it is not the Hall of Stats but when you have two players from the same team trying to get into the HOF from the same era, it is tough. Just talk to Jerry Kramer.
Lastly if you compare their stats when they played on the same team Holt is even further ahead, which makes me beg to differ that Bruce was main target of the offense. From 1999 to 2007.
Bruce - Rec-630 Yds-9446 TD-55
Holt - Rec-805 Yds-11864 TD-71
Holt had an average of 90 receptions, 1318 yds and 7.9 TD's
compared to Bruces's 70 receptions, 1050 yds and 6.1 TD's
Yes Bruce was good but he was not dominant like Holt. I understand he has a huge career stats for receptions and yards. But all of these numbers are getting surpassed by average players. Derrick Mason, Jimmy Smith and Keenan McCardell all have amazing stats but will not get a sniff from the HOF because they were just average. They are not passing Bruce but I just pointing out the other players that have had Bruce's Career similar numbers.
My last point, remember how many people were vying for Art Mont to get in? Bruce does not have the following or support.
This is my two, well probably three cents worth about Bruce.
<< <i>..Except for the mistakes (like Fred Dean)...
Jason >>
I would like to add Floyd Little to this list also.
<< <i>
<< <i>..Except for the mistakes (like Fred Dean)...
Jason >>
I would like to add Floyd Little to this list also. >>
Little was a Senior candidate. Which by default they can all be considered borderline and/or mistakes since they never made it in 25 years as modern candidates. That being said, the senior guys don't steal spots from modern candidates. So putting a weaker candidate like Little in didn't mean another guy got bumped. Dean however took the spot of a handful of much more deserving players. And I won't be hocked if it happens again with another pass rusher. I don't get it.
Anyway, here is the Peter King column. Some interesting thoughts from an actual voter.
Ten Hall of Fame thoughts on the eve of the vote for the Class of 2012, which is scheduled for 9 a.m. Saturday in downtown Indianapolis:
1. Momentum building for Eddie DeBartolo, who has had some heavy-hitters, including former Niner exec Carmen Policy, campaigning hard for him. It'll be interesting to see if being the most beloved owner by his players carries a lot of weight. DeBartolo didn't do as much for the league as a whole as a Bob Kraft, Art Modell or Dan Rooney, but he did run a great team for a long time.
2. Bill Parcells probably should be a favorite to make it (10th all-time in wins, two Super Bowl wins, took four franchises to the playoffs), but you never know how much momentum new guys will have in the room among the 44 voters. Some of the voters aren't fond of the pric-ly Parcells, but he does have more wins than the four coaches -- Marv Levy, George Allen, John Madden and Hank Stram -- who've been enshrined since 2000, and none of them have more Super Bowl rings than Parcells.
3. Maybe I'm naïve, but I think this is the year the wide receiver logjam gets broken. I see Andre Reed getting in, though I believe Cris Carter is more deserving.
4. No locks in an off year for the Hall, but Steelers center Dermontti Dawson looks like the leader in the clubhouse to me.
5. Next man up, after Dawson? Charles Haley looks like he could be this year's Richard Dent -- the guy who was close for a long time and finally got in, in part because voters are trying to make sure they don't perpetuate the mistake of the past by electing far more offensive players than defensive.
6. Next: Willie Roaf, Curtis Martin (who seems to have more momentum than Jerome Bettis). After that, it's totally jumbled. Parcells would be my best guess.
7. I still think Cortez Kennedy and Kevin Greene, who've been lost in the shuffle over the years, are very strong candidates and would be deserving selections.
8. Interesting class of 2013 candidates could make this a must year for some of the bubble candidates. Michael Strahan, Jonathan Ogden and Warren Sapp come up for election next year.
9. I could see the five modern-era slots yield fewer than five Hall of Famers. The way the voting works is each of the five finalists is voted on in secret ballot by the 44 Hall selectors. If 80 percent of the voters say yes for a candidate, he's in. Less than 80, he's out. So nine "no" votes on a finalist scuttles him.
10. I expect a long meeting. Seven hours, maybe. NFL Network airs the results live at 5:30 p.m., and you'll know when I do. We walk out of the room not knowing which of the five modern-era finalists and two Seniors candidates make it.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>8. Interesting class of 2013 candidates could make this a must year for some of the bubble candidates. Michael Strahan, Jonathan Ogden and Warren Sapp come up for election next year. >>
Hopefully it was just an oversight that King didn't mention Larry Allen here. I think he's the biggest slam dunk of all the first-ballot players next year. Ogden's right there with him. I wouldn't mind seeing Strahan and/or Sapp wait a bit.
At some point, you may no longer have 9 guys among the HOF voters who feel no punters should ever go. When that time comes, it's hard to argue with the guy with the best gross average in history (by over a yard a punt).
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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<< <i>IMO this season helps Shane Lechler's chances of being the first punter selected to the HOF - his 7th Pro Bowl, and a 2nd team All-Pro selection (2 of those, to go with 6 1st team picks), plus the definitive answer on how to punt to Devin Hester (if you haven't seen the video, Lechler boomed an 80-yard punt that had Hester sprinting backward like a center fielder going after a long fly ball, with the ball still landing past his outstretched arms).
At some point, you may no longer have 9 guys among the HOF voters who feel no punters should ever go. When that time comes, it's hard to argue with the guy with the best gross average in history (by over a yard a punt).
Nick >>
Agreed. He definitely has a stronger case than Ray Guy.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>If Lechler gets on the ballot at some point and Ray Guy isn't already in, how can Ray Guy get elected? He not only isn't the best punter ever, he isn't even the best punter ever on his own team. >>
If Ray Guy isn't the first Punter, he will never get elected. He's no longer eligible as a modern candidate, only can be selected by the Senior Committee.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Man was he ever a phenom
No ray guy bashing allowed here !!!!!!!
Ray Guy kicked them high . I mean stratospere. not the longest.
Lechler is in a class by himself. I believe Guy deserves the Hall...but Lechler is making short work of him.
He's still in his prime and could be 1st team AP for quite a few times more. Possibly the most ever for a position.
They will have to achnowledge the punter at that point.
Is ther records on least return yards from punts allowed?
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Sammy Baugh stil has the single season record for yards/punt at 51.4 for 70 years now.
Man was he ever a phenom
No ray guy bashing allowed here !!!!!!!
Ray Guy kicked them high . I mean stratospere. not the longest.
Lechler is in a class by himself. I believe Guy deserves the Hall...but Lechler is making short work of him.
He's still in his prime and could be 1st team AP for quite a few times more. Possibly the most ever for a position.
They will have to achnowledge the punter at that point.
Is ther records on least return yards from punts allowed? >>
Yes, they call it NET yards.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
P.S. I did get SIX out of seven correct last year. My only mistake, I picked Willie Roaf instead of Shannon Sharpe.
Rocke
Thanks jason
Does Parcells have a FB card? I know pro set inc a lot of coaches in 89.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>That sounds like the class they will induct.
Thanks jason
Does Parcells have a FB card? I know pro set inc a lot of coaches in 89. >>
yep he has an 1989 and a 1990 Pro Set.
Dick Stanfel
Jack Butler
Bill Parcells
Curtis Martin
Cortez Kennedy
Dermontti Dawson
Andre Reed
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Gonna stick with these as my picks.
Dick Stanfel
Jack Butler
Bill Parcells
Curtis Martin
Cortez Kennedy
Dermontti Dawson
Andre Reed >>
I agree except insert Roaf for Dawson.