I couldn't agree more, although I'm biased as Starr is my favorite NFL player of all-time.
1. BART STARR (Green Bay, 1956-71) Best season (1966): 156 for 251 (62.2%), 2,257 yards, 9.0 YPA, 14 TD, 3 INT, 105.0 passer rating Career: 1,808 for 3,149 (57.4%), 24,718 yards, 7.8 YPA, 152 TD, 138 INT, 80.5 passer rating Championships: 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967 Overview: That's right. Bart Starr. The greatest quarterback in the history of the game.
Sit down and take notes:
History has done a grave disservice to the legacy of Starr, the 17th-round draft pick out of pre-Bear Bryant Alabama who turned into the most clutch and most cruelly efficient passing assassin of his or any other generation.
History remembers Starr's legendary coach, and the bevy of Hall of Fame talent that surrounded him. It forgets that Starr was Lombardi's second in command, a tremendous big-game performer, and that the Packers of the 1960s would have been just another team without the prolific Starr as their beloved on-field leader. Instead, they won five NFL championships, with Starr at the helm of every single one of those title teams, while he crafted an NFL-record 9-1 postseason mark. The rings say it all: Starr is the only quarterback in history who has one for every finger on his throwing hand.
And even if you listen to teammates today, they make it pretty clear that they would have fallen on a grenade for Starr. Leadership is an elemental piece of quarterbacking – probably more important than gaudy passing stats. And that love his teammates had for their field general is an incredible sign of his leadership.
But forget, for a moment, the team accomplishments and the "intangibles" of leadership.
If you want to talk passing and statistics, we'll put Starr up against anybody. Anybody.
He led the NFL in passer rating five times. Johnny Unitas led the league in passer rating just twice. Ditto Joe Montana. Only Steve Young surpassed Starr's mark (six).
And, lest we forget, Starr was the best postseason passer in NFL history, as evidenced by his record 104.8 playoff passer rating and 1.41 percent interception rate, also a postseason record (CHFF readers are well aware of the importance of not throwing picks in the playoffs). Starr played in an era when 80 was a decent passer rating. Yet he still performed more efficiently in the playoffs than folks such as Montana, Brady, Manning, Marino, Young and ... well, anybody, ever.
There's a cause and effect here, folks: NFL's greatest dynasty, only winners of three-straight title games, and a record 9-1 postseason mark. And there, underlying it all, is Starr with his postseason passing records. The two are intricately intertwined.
History also remembers Starr's Packers as a great running team, and that's certainly true of their earlier years. But the truth is that they typically passed the ball more effectively than they ran it, especially during their run of three straight, when they were a below-average running team.
In their 1965 championship season, the Packers were 11th in the 14-team league with an average of 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. They were second in the league, with an average of 8.2 yards per passing attempt.
In their 1966 championship season, the Packers were 14th in the 15-team league, with an average of 3.5 yards per rushing attempt. They were first in the league, with an average of 8.9 yards per passing attempt.
In their 1967 championship season, the Packers were 4th in the 16-team league, with an average of 4.0 yards per rushing attempt. They were first in the league, with an average of 8.3 yards per passing attempt (Starr himself that season averaged 8.7 YPA).
Starr averaged a remarkable 7.85 YPA over the course of his entire career, the 8th-best mark in history, and better than that of a slate of quarterbacks who are generally regarded as the best passers in history, including Dan Marino (7.37), Joe Montana (7.52), Roger Staubach (7.67), Dan Fouts (7.68), Sonny Jurgensen (7.56), Fran Tarkenton (7.27), Y.A. Tittle (7.52), Terry Bradshaw (7.17) and Joe Namath (7.35).
Six times in the 1960s, Starr surpassed 8.2 YPA for a season. To put that into context, Peyton Manning has surpassed 8.2 YPA just twice in his brilliant 10-year career.
And, if you want drama, don't forget that Starr scored the winning TD in the Ice Bowl, probably the most famous game in NFL history. Sure, Montana led his team 92 yards for the game-winning score in Super Bowl XXIII. But he did it on a 68-degree night in Miami. Turn down the thermostat by 86 degrees (it was 18-below in the fourth quarter of the Ice Bowl) and you begin to approximate the conditions under which the greatest quarterback in NFL history operated during his greatest moment in the sport's greatest game.
And Starr was brilliant on that drive, in the decisive moments of the sport's most famous game: he completed 5 of 5 passes in ball-busting cold, and then called a run play for the winning score. But instead of handing it off, he decided in his mind, without telling his teammates, that he was going to punch it in himself. It was only fitting: the game's greatest signal-caller taking matters into his own hands in the sport's signature moment.
To cap his career achievements, Starr earned MVP honors in the first two Super Bowls after shredding the best the AFL could throw his way for 452 yards on 47 passing attempts (9.6 YPA). Among those victims were the 1967 Raiders, perhaps the AFL's greatest single team. He posted a combined 106.0 passer rating in those two games. If you think it was no small feat to beat up on "upstart" AFL teams, just look at how NFL quarterbacks fared in Super Bowls III and IV. (Here's a hint: they were embarrassed.)
When it comes to a combination of leadership, victories, big-game performances and statistical supremacy nobody – NOBODY – put together a more total package than Bart Starr, the greatest quarterback in NFL history.
First time poster, but I have been working on this set for a year now. I am 40.09% complete. I started buying cards from all era's, but have recently tried to settle into getting them a decade at the time. I am working on the 1970's right now. I have read through all 375+ pages of this thread and have picked up a wealth of information. However, I am looking for some direction. I have been trying to buy cards raw and submit them myself. Here is my latest submission:
VERY GOOD-EXCELLENT 4 1954 BOWMAN 23 GEORGE BLANDA N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1968 TOPPS 173 FLOYD LITTLE N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1971 TOPPS 210 CHARLIE SANDERS NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1972 TOPPS 93 TED HENDRICKS NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1973 TOPPS 115 JACK HAM N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1977 TOPPS 380 DAVE CASPER ALL-PRO GEM MINT 10 1989 SCORE 257 BARRY SANDERS MINT 9 1989 SCORE 270 TROY AIKMAN MINT 9 1990 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 101T EMMITT SMITH
My question is....Is the N6 that common? 33% of my cards were that way. The next, and this is from sheer frustration....Is the 1974 John Hannah impossible to find centered and print mark free? I have looked for that card for a solid year now and haven't found one that fits the bill. Really only looking to get an 8 out of it. Also...not to hijack a thread with a WTB ad, but if you have any 70's era cards that I am missing, let me know....really would like the 75 Swann, the 74 Hannah and the 76 Lambert in PSA 8. Thanks and really enjoying the thread.
I though I posted in this thread earlier, but it isn't showing up. I am Greedoguy in the set registry for this amazing set and I am currently around 40% complete, starting the set in late 2010. I am looking to finish the decade of the 1970's now, so if you have any cards that I am missing from that era, please let me know. I am really looking for a 1974 John Hannah and a 1975 Lynn Swann in PSA 8, if anyone has them.
I have currently been trying to buy raw cards and submit them myself. Here is my latest submission:
VERY GOOD-EXCELLENT 4 1954 BOWMAN 23 GEORGE BLANDA N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1968 TOPPS 173 FLOYD LITTLE N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1971 TOPPS 210 CHARLIE SANDERS NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1972 TOPPS 93 TED HENDRICKS NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1973 TOPPS 115 JACK HAM N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1977 TOPPS 380 DAVE CASPER ALL-PRO GEM MINT 10 1989 SCORE 257 BARRY SANDERS MINT 9 1989 SCORE 270 TROY AIKMAN MINT 9 1990 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 101T EMMITT SMITH
The Aikman and Sanders I pulled from a lot of 5 $3.00 packs, so I was pleased to get those grades, however, I was frustrated with all of the N6's I had. A third of my submission came back this way. Is this normal? My next question is concerning the 1974 John Hannah...I am having a brutal time finding this card even remotely centered. Same with the 1974 Ray Guy. I am not a PSA member, I submit under the non member status, so I don't know the Pop reports on these guys, but they can't be huge. Has any one had any luck finding PSA 8ish centered copies?
Thanks for reading and I look forward to participating in this thread.
Welcome to the set! You'll find that we are a bunch of great guys who simply love football and collecting.
As for your submissions, I feel bad for you it's probably because the cards were trimmed by someone. Especially for older cards like those unforunately there are many people who will trim the cards to make the corners appear sharp. I rarely buy raw cards unless I can actully see the card in person(did you buy them online?). That doesn't mean you can't find some good deals on ebay, etc. but be careful and know the factory measurments of the cards you want when buying in person.
You are correct about the Hannah card, it's very difficult to find in high grades(look at the PSA Pop report). It took me a long time to find a PSA 9 and honestly my nine is a very poor one. Just keep looking and checking this thread and if any of these guys have one they'll offer it to you. We always try to help our fellow collectors.
Class of 2012 Semifinalists Announcement Today’s a big day for us in Canton. Tune in later this afternoon to find out who will comprise our list of semifinalists for the Class of 2012. The group will come from the 105 preliminary modern-era nominees that we released in September.
The announcement of the 2012 semifinalists will be made live on NFL Network’s Around the League Live broadcast during the 5:00 P.M. ET hour. You can then go in-depth with our coverage on Profootballhof.com.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Parcells, Shields among 26 Hall of Fame semifinalists
First-year candidates Bill Parcells and Will Shields are among the 26 semifinalists being considered for the Pro Football Hall of Fame's Class of 2012, it was announced Tuesday.
Although technically a first-year eligible candidate, Parcells has been a finalist twice before (2001, 2002) following his announced retirement as coach of the New York Jets in 1999. Parcells returned to coach the Dallas Cowboys in 2003, and the five-year waiting period was in effect when he retired from coaching in 2006.
The Hall of Fame's Selection Committee chose the 26 semifinalists from the previously announced list of 105 preliminary nominees.
In addition to the two first-year eligible nominees, four other previously eligible candidates -- Steve Atw@ter, Clay Matthews, Karl Mecklenburg and longtime contributor Ron Wolf -- made it to the semifinalists list for the first time. Each of the remaining 20 nominees on the selection committee's list has been a semifinalist at least once prior to this year.
The complete list of 26 modern-era semifinalists is as follows:
» Steve Atw@ter, S -- 1989-1998 Denver Broncos, 1999 New York Jets » Jerome Bettis, RB -- 1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers » Tim Brown, WR/KR -- 1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers » Cris Carter, WR -- 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins » Don Coryell, Coach -- 1973-77 St. Louis Cardinals, 1978-1986 San Diego Chargers » Roger Craig, RB -- 1983-1990 San Francisco 49ers, 1991 Los Angeles Raiders, 1992-93 Minnesota Vikings » Terrell Davis, RB -- 1995-2001 Denver Broncos » Dermontti Dawson, C -- 1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers » Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner -- 1979-2000 San Francisco 49ers » Chris Doleman, DE/LB -- 1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers » Kevin Greene, LB/DE -- 1985-1992 Los Angeles Rams, 1993-95 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996, 1998-99 Carolina Panthers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers » Charles Haley, DE/LB -- 1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys » Cortez Kennedy, DT -- 1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks » Curtis Martin, RB -- 1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets » Clay Matthews, LB -- 1978-1993 Cleveland Browns, 1994-96 Atlanta Falcons » Karl Mecklenburg, LB -- 1983-1994 Denver Broncos » Bill Parcells, Coach -- 1983-1990 New York Giants, 1993-96 New England Patriots, 1997-99 New York Jets, 2003-06 Dallas Cowboys » Andre Reed, WR -- 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins » Willie Roaf, T -- 1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs » Donnie Shell, S -- 1974-1987 Pittsburgh Steelers » Will Shields, G -- 1993-2006 Kansas City Chiefs » Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner -- 1989-2006 National Football League » Steve Tasker, ST/WR -- 1985-86 Houston Oilers, 1986-1997 Buffalo Bills » Aeneas Williams, CB/S -- 1991-2000 Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals, 2001-04 St. Louis Rams » Ron Wolf, Contributor -- 1963-1974, 1978-1990 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders, 1975-77 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 1990 New York Jets, 1991-2001 Green Bay Packers » George Young, Contributor -- 1968-1974 Baltimore Colts, 1975-78 Miami Dolphins, 1979-1997 New York Giants, 1998-2001 National Football League
The list of 26 semifinalists will be reduced by mail ballot to 15 modern-era finalists. That list increases to 17 finalist nominees with the inclusion of the two recommended candidates of the Hall of Fame's Seniors Committee: cornerback Jack Butler of the Steelers (1951-59) and guard Dick Stanfel of the Lions (1952-55) and Redskins (1956-58).
The results of the modern-era reduction vote to 15 finalists will be announced in early January, 2012.
The Class of 2012 will be determined at the Selection Committee's annual meeting on Saturday, Feb. 4, in Indianapolis the day before Super Bowl XLVI.
Nice to see Donnie Shell get one last look. He won't get in, but will help his senior candidate resume.
Also returning this year after missing the cut last year: Steve Tasker..He won't get in this year either
Falling off the list: -The 5 who made the HOF last year -Ray Guy and Lester Hayes, who moved to the Senior Pool -Art Modell
Interesting that of the 4 new additions ( who have been eligible before but overlooked), three are defensive players, and one is former GM. Putting 10 offensive players, 9 defensive, 6 coaches/contributers, 1 special teamer in the pool.
Should be an interesting year, with onlt Parcells and Shields as 1st ballot possibles, and neither is a lock...Good year to clear out some logjams.
My guesses: Parcells or Tagliabue...Only one will get in, I would think Parcells but Tagliabue had been held up by the CBA, which has been solved. May go with him after the long wait Cortez Kennedy...Top defensive player, and has been the closest the last few years Dawson, Roaf, or Shields...For me, I think that is the pecking order..But could realistically see any 1 of these 3 go in. All 3 are deserving and will get in at some point Bettis, Martin, Reed...Again, I think this is the pecking order. 2 of these 3 I'm guessing will go in. Martin and Bettis are so close, could easily see them putting both in..But if Dawson gets the Steeler vote, could see Bettis getting pushed until next year.
Other possibles: Tim Brown, Cris Carter (although Reed has gotten more support the last 2 votes) Kevin Greene, Charles Haley (either could get a push if they vote heavy on the pash rushers Wolf, Young, DeBartolo (as we've seen in recent years, its hard to judge the contributers)
Don't really see much of a shot for any of the others this time around.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Obvious Steelers bias from me, but why do some, if not most, consider Martin better than Bettis? Stats aside, and they weren't very much different, at all, why is Martin considered better? Name me one memorable moment from Martin's career? On the other hand, do it with Bettis. I bet you that there are a whole bunch more Bettis 'moments' than Martin moments. I honestly can't remember too much about Martin's career...very non-descript. If that factors into the equation at all, Bettis is head and shoulders above Martin. >>
I admit I don't know how to post a "link" to an article. I am NOT very computer savvy. If someone else could post it for me, I would be VERY GRATEFUL. Could someone PLEASE post a link, or the article itself. If you google sports-central Brad Oremland 2006 Five Quick Hits The article is from Feb. 14th. Scroll down to where he has "PROSPECTS" on capital letters. That article DETAILS why Jerome Bettis is NOT a Hall of Famer. >>
Here you go
Prospects Since the Steelers won Super Bowl XL, there's been a lot of talk about Jerome Bettis and Bill Cowher going to Canton. I really like both men, but I'm here to tell you that neither one is a lock.
Cowher is 141-82-1 (.632) in the regular season and 12-9 (.571) in the postseason. Every one of his Steeler teams has finished in the top half of the league in total defense and points allowed. Cowher's greatest strength may be his ability to find talented assistants. His current staff includes Grimm, Dick LeBeau, and Ken Whisenhunt, all of whom are head coaching prospects.
That's a very impressive résumé, and Cowher — now 14th in career coaching victories — might get my vote if he retired today. I'd like to see him add a few more successful seasons, though, before the question marks disappear.
You'll notice I haven't mentioned the Super Bowl on Cowher's résumé. That's intentional. Is he a better coach today than he was two weeks ago? I thought before the big game that Cowher was a better coach than Mike Holmgren, and I still do.
The Bus is a trickier subject. Actually, there's nothing tricky, it's just that I don't want to be mean. Bettis does not deserve to make the Hall. In 13 seasons, Bettis never led the league in rushing yards, average, or touchdowns, and he was never regarded as the best running back in the game. To me, that seems like an obvious HOF criterion. If he was never — even at his best — considered the top player at his position, he was merely very good.
Despite consistent performance, Bettis only had three really good seasons. He was a top-10 rusher five times, but in two of those seasons — 1994 and 2000 — he clearly was not one of the top-10 RBs in the league. In '94, he averaged 3.2 yards per carry and rushed for only three touchdowns. In '00, he averaged 3.8 and had under 100 receiving yards. And in both seasons, he barely cracked the top 10 to begin with.
If Bettis is inducted, he will be only the second running back with a career average worse than four yards per carry. The first, John Riggins, retired as the third-leading rusher of all-time, was the second player ever to rush for 100 touchdowns, held the NFL's single-season TD record, and was arguably the greatest postseason rusher of all-time. Riggins once had six straight 100-yard games in the postseason, including his 166-yard MVP performance in Super Bowl XVII. Bettis had only three 100-yard games in the postseason during his career, with a high of 105.
If Bettis is inducted, he will have the fewest rushing TDs of any RB who played during or after 1980, and the lowest rushing TDs per game of any HOF running back who played after the AFL merger. He will have the second-fewest receptions, receiving yards, and receiving TDs of any RB who played 16-game seasons for his whole career, ahead of only Earl Campbell, who retired after eight seasons.
Bettis is the Rafael Palmeiro of running backs, except that he's probably not a steroid user. The big career numbers are from being good and playing a lot, not from being great. He had a mediocre rushing average, he wasn't a great short-yardage back until past his prime, he couldn't catch, and he was never a big-game player.
The Bus will probably get in — it doesn't hurt that he's so well-liked — but he shouldn't and he isn't a lock.
Jerome didn't deserve to go in The Hall of Fame in 2011, and he doesn't deserve to go in The Hall of Fame in 2012. Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
However, if we are comparing 3 best seasons.....then T Davis blows his doors off. Having more of anything over E Campbell is like comparing campbells's regular soup to chunky. Earl was a monster. period. Howe many times did our jaws drop watching earl run around everyone to the outside for 20 yards? Countless.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
In last years voting, Curtis Martin made the cut from 15 to 10...Bettis did not. So at least last year, Martin seemed to have the edge when comparing the 2. Both made the top 15 in their first year of eligibility, so making it into the HOF is a foregone conclusion...For both, it is just a matter of when...
We must also remember, HOF induction is not how great a players best 3 years were...Just as importantly it is about longevity...Not many post-war HOFers with fewer than 100 career games played. That's the only thing keeping Terrell Davis out...Once Bettis and Martin go in however, Davis will have his best chance at induction.
Consider this:
Only other HOF possible RB to compete with Davis after Bettis and Martin is Roger Craig. Craig's eligibility runs out in 2018...The only RB on the horizon who will get any HOF consideration in the near future is Edgerrin James, who will join the crowd in 2015...Davis will get a hard look as a finalist in the coming years....Debatable to be able to say his dominance was enough to overcome his lack of longevity (ala Gale Sayers)...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
good thing we didnt vote At water off the island. finally cracked the top 25. maybe butler will follow in a few years.
if the packers keeping going it might help Wolf and Greene. Greene has done a great job with the OLBs but coaching isnt why he would make it but it does keep his name in the news.
as for Wolf, if it wasnt for him the Packers still wouldnt be where they are today. their turn around started with him. they have been the most consistent team in the NFL during the salary cap era record wise. not yet title wise but there appears to be time for that to change too.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
At water making the top 25 doesn't mean he is realistically any closer to the HOF. What doesn't make swnse on the set is that Steve Tasker just made the top 25 for the 5th or 6th time and still hasn't been voted onto the set.
So trying to use that as sensible reasoning just doesn't cut it.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>When it comes to a combination of leadership, victories, big-game performances and statistical supremacy nobody – NOBODY – put together a more total package than Bart Starr, the greatest quarterback in NFL history >>
The above posting is a partial from the best posting I have ever read on this thread. Just want to acknowledge Cardbender for articulating his take on Starr so factually and eloquently.
Thank you.
That having been said, is this Starr rookie worthy of an 8.5?
I say yes to the 8.5 as PSA often pays little or no attention to the back. And if you want to sell the Starr, let's talk.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Beautiful card but I say no shot at 8.5 due to wax on back. Suprised it didn't get an ST qualifier. >>
No wax stains on back, just a bit of a dirty scan. Teeny corner hit bot/rt. Rest of card blazes. I have not seen any of the three 9's, but this is the best 8 I have ever seen by far.
Thanks Macboube, but I cannot take credit for the Bart Starr posting above. It was from the article from the previous page. I simply cut and pasted it. For some reason it didn't show up in italics. I do however completely agree with it for all the stated reasons, although I have a bias towards Bart Starr and his accomplishments. All he did was win.
Wonderful Bart Starr RC you have there. The front does look 8.5ish. The back might prevent the bump. Still, it's an outstanding example.
Scott, I agree..... I think Otto Graham is great and often overlooked. I think the reason he doesn't get more love is four of his ten years were in the AAFC, so he only played in six NFL seasons. He was just a winner too, like Starr. It's really unreal that Graham played 10 years and was in 10 league championships, winning seven titles.
I personally find the AAFC history and players fascinating, but it seems like their legitimacy is treated as badly as the first five seasons of the AFL. With no respect.
Plus Starr's career was part of the Super Bowl era, which seems to be the era where most of the current so-called football experts seem to think that's when football all began. Ignoring the first 48 years of the NFL, AAFC, and early AFL years and players. So Starr gets more ink than Graham because his career spanned the golden era of football and the modern era too (Super Bowl era).
<< <i>What would be THE Donald Driver RC to get?.....only one I can find is the Fleer Focus. Would that be THE one? >>
Yes, the Fleer Focus is the one to get. Not the Emerald (serial to 300) the regular is to 3850. I think I have a RAW one here that will grade an 8. Won't make a 9.
Don't forget that Graham also played one season of basketball for the Rochester Royals and, of course, his team won the National Basketball League's championship...
Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay, 47 1-2; Drew Brees, New Orleans, 2 1-2.
x-Running Backs
Maurice Jones-Drew, Jacksonville, 40; LeSean McCoy, Philadelphia, 29; Ray Rice, Baltimore, 24;
Arian Foster, Houston, 3; Frank Gore, San Francisco, 1; Matt Forte, Chicago, 1; Darren Sproles, New Orleans, 1.
Fullback
Vonta Leach, Baltimore, 42; John Kuhn, Green Bay, 6; Marcel Reece, Oakland, 2.
Tight End
Rob Gronkowski, New England, 44 1-2; Jimmy Graham, New Orleans, 5 1-2.
Wide Receivers
Calvin Johnson, Detroit, 49; Wes Welker, New England, 23; Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona, 15; Victor Cruz, New York Giants, 9; Steve Smith, Carolina, 2; Jordy Nelson, Green Bay, 1; Mike Wallace, Pittsburgh, 1.
Tackles
Jason Peters, Philadelphia, 27; Joe Thomas, Cleveland, 19; Duane Brown, Houston, 11; Joe Staley, San Francisco, 11; Eric Winston, Houston, 10; Jake Long, Miami, 5; Jermon Bushrod, New Orleans, 3; Andrew Whitworth, Cincinnati, 3; Bryan Bulaga, Green Bay, 3; Michael Oher, Baltimore, 2; Jared Veldheer, Oakland, 2; Tyron Smith, Dallas, 1; Anthony Davis, San Francisco, 1; Jordan Gross, Carolina, 1; Michael Roos, Tennessee, 1.
Guards
Jahri Evans, New Orleans, 29; Carl Nicks, New Orleans, 27; Marshal Yanda, Baltimore, 17; Logan Mankins, New England, 10; Brian Waters, New England, 5; Chris Kuper, Denver, 4; Davin Joseph, Tampa Bay, 3; Chris Snee, New York Giants, 2; Evan Mathis, Philadelphia, 2; Mike Iupati, San Francisco, 1.
Center
Maurkice Pouncey, Pittsburgh, 13; Ryan Kalil, Carolina, 11; Nick Mangold, New York Jets, 11; Chris Myers, Houston, 7; Scott Wells, Green Bay, 7; John Sullivan, Minnesota, 1.
Placekicker
David Akers, San Francisco, 32; Sebastian Janikowski, Oakland, 14; Rob Bironas, Tennessee, 1; Matt Bryant, Atlanta, 1; Matt Prater, Denver, 1; Josh Scobee, Jacksonville, 1.
Kick Returner
Patrick Peterson, Arizona, 33; Devin Hester, Chicago, 10; Darren Sproles, New Orleans, 3; Ted Ginn Jr., San Francisco, 2; Antonio Brown, Pittsburgh, 1; Joe McKnight, New York Jets, 1.
___
DEFENSE Ends
Jared Allen, Minnesota, 49; Jason Pierre-Paul, New York Giants, 34; Justin Smith, San Francisco, 9; Jason Babin, Philadelphia, 7; Elvis Dumervil, Denver, 1.
Tackles
Haloti Ngata, Baltimore, 38; Justin Smith, San Francisco, 35; Geno Atkins, Cincinnati, 9; Richard Seymour, Oakland, 5; Vince Wilfork, New England, 5; B.J. Raji, Green Bay, 1; Calais Campbell, Arizona, 1; Henry Melton, Chicago, 1; Mike Patterson, Philadelphia, 1; Sione Pouha, New York Jets, 1; Jay Ratliff, Dallas, 1; Ndamukong Suh, Detroit, 1; J.J. Watt, Houston, 1.
Outside Linebackers
Terrell Suggs, Baltimore, 47; DeMarcus Ware, Dallas, 42; Tamba Hali, Kansas City, 4; Von Miller, Denver, 4; Clay Matthews, Green Bay, 2; Sean Weatherspoon, Atlanta, 1.
Inside Linebacker
Patrick Willis, San Francisco, 32; NaVorro Bowman, San Francisco, 16; Derrick Johnson, Kansas City, 16; Brian Cushing, Houston, 13; London Fletcher, Washington, 8; Ray Lewis, Baltimore, 3; Brian Urlacher, Chicago, 3; Daryl Washington, Arizona, 3; Lance Briggs, Chicago, 2; D'Qwell Jackson, Cleveland, 2; DeMeco Ryans, Houston, 1; Lawrence Timmons, Pittsburgh, 1;
Cornerbacks
Darrelle Revis, NY Jets, 48; Charles Woodson, Green Bay, 19; Johnathan Joseph, Houston, 18; Carlos Rogers, San Francisco, 10; Champ Bailey, Denver, 3; Brandon Flowers, Kansas City, 1; Charles Tillman, Chicago, 1.
Safeties
Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh, 29; Eric Weddle, San Diego, 20; Ed Reed, Baltimore, 17; Earl Thomas, Seattle, 16; Kam Chancellor, Seattle, 5; Adrian Wilson, Arizona, 4; Dashon Goldson, San Francisco, 3; Jairus Byrd, Buffalo, 2; Bernard Pollard, Baltimore, 2; Roman Harper, New Orleans, 1; Tyvon Branch, Oakland, 1.
Punter
Andy Lee, San Francisco, 29; Shane Lechler, Oakland, 20; Britton Colquitt, Denver, 1.
___
x-one voter selected only one running back.
Some thoughts here as it relates to the HOF and future HOFer sets.
OT Joe Thomas raises his profile to 5 Pro Bowls, 3 First Team All-Pro. Still a tad early in his career, but starting to get close. Needs another 2 years with at least 1 more Pro Bowl/All-Pro year. DE Jared Allen is now 4 Pro Bowls, 4 All-Pros (every active player with 4+ All-Pro selections is already part of the Future HOF set- Modern) LB DeMarcus Ware jumps to a 6 PB, 4 AP guy, and increases his future HOF odds greatly LB Patrick Willis ALREADY a 5 PB, 4 All-Pro...Only problem is that he has only played 76 NFL games. EXTREMELY rare for post-war players to make the HOF with less than 100 games played. Only 5 years in league, IMO hasn't played long enough (need a couple more years) to warrant HOF consideration. But he already has the resume. CB Darrelle Revis is up to 4 PB, 3 All-Pro in 5 seasons..Not quite there, like Willis only played in 77 games..But certainly looks to be headed that way. CB Charles Woodson now an 8 PB, 3 AP. Add in the Super Bowl ring and DPOY and he's all but a HOF lock at this point. Approaching first ballot status. S Troy Polamalu was selected as well, raising his profile to 7 PB, 4 AP. He was already a HOF lock with his Super Bowl titles, but we may finally have a Safety who won;t have a problem getting into the HOF. Also approaching first ballot status.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>OT Joe Thomas raises his profile to 5 Pro Bowls, 3 First Team All-Pro. Still a tad early in his career, but starting to get close. Needs another 2 years with at least 1 more Pro Bowl/All-Pro year. DE Jared Allen is now 4 Pro Bowls, 4 All-Pros (every active player with 4+ All-Pro selections is already part of the Future HOF set- Modern) LB DeMarcus Ware jumps to a 6 PB, 4 AP guy, and increases his future HOF odds greatly LB Patrick Willis ALREADY a 5 PB, 4 All-Pro...Only problem is that he has only played 76 NFL games. EXTREMELY rare for post-war players to make the HOF with less than 100 games played. Only 5 years in league, IMO hasn't played long enough (need a couple more years) to warrant HOF consideration. But he already has the resume. CB Darrelle Revis is up to 4 PB, 3 All-Pro in 5 seasons..Not quite there, like Willis only played in 77 games..But certainly looks to be headed that way. CB Charles Woodson now an 8 PB, 3 AP. Add in the Super Bowl ring and DPOY and he's all but a HOF lock at this point. Approaching first ballot status. S Troy Polamalu was selected as well, raising his profile to 7 PB, 4 AP. He was already a HOF lock with his Super Bowl titles, but we may finally have a Safety who won;t have a problem getting into the HOF. Also approaching first ballot status. >>
Anyone know if these players have clear-cut, in terms of set registry purposes, key rookie cards?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>OT Joe Thomas raises his profile to 5 Pro Bowls, 3 First Team All-Pro. Still a tad early in his career, but starting to get close. Needs another 2 years with at least 1 more Pro Bowl/All-Pro year. DE Jared Allen is now 4 Pro Bowls, 4 All-Pros (every active player with 4+ All-Pro selections is already part of the Future HOF set- Modern) LB DeMarcus Ware jumps to a 6 PB, 4 AP guy, and increases his future HOF odds greatly LB Patrick Willis ALREADY a 5 PB, 4 All-Pro...Only problem is that he has only played 76 NFL games. EXTREMELY rare for post-war players to make the HOF with less than 100 games played. Only 5 years in league, IMO hasn't played long enough (need a couple more years) to warrant HOF consideration. But he already has the resume. CB Darrelle Revis is up to 4 PB, 3 All-Pro in 5 seasons..Not quite there, like Willis only played in 77 games..But certainly looks to be headed that way. CB Charles Woodson now an 8 PB, 3 AP. Add in the Super Bowl ring and DPOY and he's all but a HOF lock at this point. Approaching first ballot status. S Troy Polamalu was selected as well, raising his profile to 7 PB, 4 AP. He was already a HOF lock with his Super Bowl titles, but we may finally have a Safety who won;t have a problem getting into the HOF. Also approaching first ballot status. >>
Anyone know if these players have clear-cut, in terms of set registry purposes, key rookie cards? >>
off the top of my head:
2005 Topps Chrome DeMarcus Ware 1998 Sp Authentic Charles Woodson 2003 Sp Authentic Troy Polamalu
Willis, Thomas and Revis all should be the Topps Chrome as well, not sure about Allen.
2005 Topps Chrome DeMarcus Ware 1998 Sp Authentic Charles Woodson 2003 Sp Authentic Troy Polamalu
Willis, Thomas and Revis all should be the Topps Chrome as well, not sure about Allen. >>
These are all correct. The Jared Allen is 2004 SP Authentic.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
2005 Topps Chrome DeMarcus Ware 1998 Sp Authentic Charles Woodson 2003 Sp Authentic Troy Polamalu
Willis, Thomas and Revis all should be the Topps Chrome as well, not sure about Allen. >>
These are all correct. The Jared Allen is 2004 SP Authentic.
Jason >>
Yep, those look right.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Finalists were named today. Pretty much exactly what I expected:
The Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee’s 17 finalists (15 modern-era and two senior nominees*) with their positions, teams, and years active follow:
Jerome Bettis – Running Back – 1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers Tim Brown – Wide Receiver/Kick Returner – 1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Jack Butler* – Cornerback – 1951-59 Pittsburgh Steelers Cris Carter – Wide Receiver – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins Dermontti Dawson – Center – 1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers Edward DeBartolo, Jr. – Owner – 1977-2000 San Francisco 49ers Chris Doleman – Defensive End/Linebacker – 1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers Kevin Greene – Linebacker/Defensive End – 1985-1992 Los Angeles Rams, 1993-95 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996, 1998-99 Carolina Panthers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers Charles Haley – Defensive End/Linebacker – 1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys Cortez Kennedy – Defensive Tackle – 1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks Curtis Martin – Running Back – 1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets Bill Parcells – Coach – 1983-1990 New York Giants, 1993-96 New England Patriots, 1997-99 New York Jets, 2003-06 Dallas Cowboys Andre Reed – Wide Receiver – 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins Willie Roaf – Tackle – 1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs Will Shields – Guard – 1993-2006 Kansas City Chiefs Dick Stanfel* – Guard – 1952-55 Detroit Lions, 1956-58 Washington Redskins Aeneas Williams – Cornerback/Safety – 1991-2000 Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals, 2001-04 St. Louis Rams
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
At-water, Coryell, Craig, Davis, Matthews, Mecklenburg, Shell, Tagliabue, Tasker, Wolf and Young are the 11 semifinalists who didn't make the cut.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Finalists were named today. Pretty much exactly what I expected:
The Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee’s 17 finalists (15 modern-era and two senior nominees*) with their positions, teams, and years active follow:
Jerome Bettis – Running Back – 1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers Tim Brown – Wide Receiver/Kick Returner – 1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Jack Butler* – Cornerback – 1951-59 Pittsburgh Steelers Cris Carter – Wide Receiver – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins Dermontti Dawson – Center – 1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers Edward DeBartolo, Jr. – Owner – 1977-2000 San Francisco 49ers Chris Doleman – Defensive End/Linebacker – 1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers Kevin Greene – Linebacker/Defensive End – 1985-1992 Los Angeles Rams, 1993-95 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996, 1998-99 Carolina Panthers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers Charles Haley – Defensive End/Linebacker – 1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys Cortez Kennedy – Defensive Tackle – 1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks Curtis Martin – Running Back – 1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets Bill Parcells – Coach – 1983-1990 New York Giants, 1993-96 New England Patriots, 1997-99 New York Jets, 2003-06 Dallas Cowboys Andre Reed – Wide Receiver – 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins Willie Roaf – Tackle – 1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs Will Shields – Guard – 1993-2006 Kansas City Chiefs Dick Stanfel* – Guard – 1952-55 Detroit Lions, 1956-58 Washington Redskins Aeneas Williams – Cornerback/Safety – 1991-2000 Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals, 2001-04 St. Louis Rams >>
I have everyone covered except the 2 senior candidates, Shields, and Doleman. I have about 10 raw Dolemans, but I guess I should just go ahead and buy one on eBay just to be safe.
-Donnie Shell moves to the Senior Pool. -Aeneas Williams, Kevin Greene, Eddie DeBartolo...All 3 are first time finalists who were previously a semifinalist. These are the names "moving up" the list. -Somewhat surprised Tagliabue didn't jump back into the finalist group with the CBA now solved. Going to make it tough to predict, if/when he gets in. -None of the semifinalist will be in their final modern year of candidacy next year. We will also be adding Jon Ogden, Larry Allen, Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan, John Lynch, Morten Andersen and Rueben Brown next year. At least 4 of these 7 will be semifinalists next year.
My predictions for induction this year:
Dick Stanfel Jack Butler Bill Parcells (possible DeBatolo)...Only one will get in, I think it will be Bill Parcells as his chances of coaching again seem to be nil Cortez Kennedy (possible Haley/Doleman/Greene)...Top defensive player, and has been the closest the last few years, and i think he goes in this year. Unless the voters go on a pass rusher quest again Dermontti Dawson (possible Roaf/Shields)...For me, I think Dawson has been waiting the longest and was the most dominant of this group. But really a crap shoot since all 3 played different positions on the line. Curtis Martin (possible Bettis)...With Dawson going in, I don't think Bettis gets in this time. Also don't think they will take 2 RB with so many great WR's on the board Andre Reed (possible Carter/Brown)...Reed has gotten the most support and been closer the last 2 votes. With a weak 1st ballot class this year, they finally break the WR logjam and Reed gets in. Carter or Brown could also very easily be the WR, just basing my opinion on the last 2 votes.
Wildcard is Aeneas Williams....First time he will be discussed in the room of voters, and if they push for a 2nd defensive player, Williams could take the spot of any of the 5 modern guys except Kennedy.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I've heard some people say that this won't be a great class. I think just the opposite. I think you can put together a dynamite class out of this group. I think every single player in that final 17 could make a very strong case. None of them would be out of place in the Hall. Now that we have the final grouping, I'll make my selections:
Willie Roaf, Will Shields, Charles Haley, Jerome Bettis, Cris Carter, Dick Stanfel, Dermontti Dawson.
I say that, knowing full well that there is almost NO chance that the voters will select that many linemen. But, wouldn't it be a great group?
<< <i>I've heard some people say that this won't be a great class. I think just the opposite. I think you can put together a dynamite class out of this group. I think every single player in that final 17 could make a very strong case. None of them would be out of place in the Hall. Now that we have the final grouping, I'll make my selections:
Willie Roaf, Will Shields, Charles Haley, Jerome Bettis, Cris Carter, Dick Stanfel, Dermontti Dawson.
I say that, knowing full well that there is almost NO chance that the voters will select that many linemen. But, wouldn't it be a great group? >>
I was upset when Willie did not get in first ballot last year. I have known him since he was a Freshman at La Tech and I was a junior in high school working out at Techs facilities. I am very biased towards Willie so I will always regard him as the best ever in my book. No argument could ever sway me.
I always thought Haley should be in. Same with Cris Carter and Dawson. I think they have been 3 of the biggest snubs the last few years.
I have no idea on who the class will be even though I think Reed and Martin both get their name called.
<< <i>Powdered - you have 6 modern candidates in your group, and they can't select more than 5.
Nick >>
Highlights the difficulty in whittling this group to 5. As mentioned above, really an argument can be made for all 15 of them, but with zero NO BRAINER 1st ballot guys this season, really going to make it an interesting group to select.
The senior candidates are not part of the debate. They are simply a yes/no vote. The modern guys get cut to 10, then to 5, and then those 5 get a yes/no vote. The past 4 years the 5 modern candidates who made the yes/no vote (must get 80%) all got voted in. Last year, these guys made the cut to the final 10 but not the top 5:
Willie Roaf-2011 was his first ballot Curtis Martin-2011 was his first ballot Andre Reed- Also made the final 10 in 2010 Dermontti Dawson- Also made the final 10 in 2010 Cortez Kennedy- Also made the final 10 in 2010
Meaning they got more votes than these guys who were in the final 15, but not the final 10:
Cris Carter Jerome Bettis Tim Brown Charles Haley Chris Doleman
While these "pecking orders" don't always ring true, in the past 5 years, here are the HOFers who were inducted WITHOUT making the cut to the final 10 the previous year(excluding 1st ballot guys of course):
2011- Ed Sabol...Was never even a semifinalist before last year 2010- Rickey Jackson...Was a semifinalist in 2008, but didn't even make the top 25 in 2009 before being elected in 2010 2009- Ralph Wilson...Was a semifinalist in 2006, was not top 25 in 2007 or 2008 2008- Gary Zimmerman...Was a finalist in 2007, but did not make the cut to 10
So it seems as if there is a wildcard each year. 3 of the 4 were seemingly "out of nowhere"...If there is to be another one this year, it would seem these 3 are that type of underdogs:
Aeneas Williams Kevin Greene Eddie DeBartolo
The Vegas odds will be on either the first ballot guys Parcells and Shields, or these 5 who just missed last year:
Willie Roaf Curtis Martin Andre Reed Dermontti Dawson Cortez Kennedy
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
This is an exciting time isn't it ? For many of the people that follow this thread, to try to get the nicest possible examples of the new inductees rookie cards, ( and I'm guessing that a great many of you already have near perfect or perfect cards of most if not ALL of the modern guys, and VERY nice cards of the two VERY deserving Senior nominees. ) For people like me, it is to get a top notch autograph, but luckily for me, with my Goal Line Art "GOLD" set, and my unlined index cards of the late Don Coryell and George Young, I already had all of this years semi-finalists taken care of.
Now, just a thought or two about this year finalists, and about someone who didn't make the cut. I am not going to go into why Jerome Bettis does NOT belong in the Hall. For anyone that missed that , go back to Page 381, and look at my post on 11-23-2011.
No this is about another former VERY GOOD player, who, in my opinion, is not even close to being Hall of Fame worthy. Why, exactly, does Charles Haley deserve election, to The Hall of Fame? He played 12 years, and had exactly TWO interceptions, and eight fumble recoveries. He did have 100.5 sacks.....I'll give him that, very impressive. Oh, five Super Bowl Rings..... SO WHAT !!!!!
So, because he won 5 rings, he belongs in the Hall of Fame????
So, among other Frank Crosetti (8), Johnny Murphy (7), Joe Collins (6), Charlie Keller (6), and Charlie Silvera (6) all belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame ???? There are MANY others that have won six OR MORE World Series, that I did NOT list. Also, let's get a campaign going to get, among others, Satch Sanders (8), Jim Loscutoff (7), Larry Siegfried (5), and Steve Kerr (5) elected to the Basketball Hall of Fame, since they all won the same, or more championships than Charles Haley. There are other basketball players with 5 or more, but you get the idea.
Charles was selected to five pro-bowls, and 1st team All-Pro twice, and zero 2nd team All-Pro. I'll bet there are AT LEAST a couple of hundred players with more than TWO 1st ot 2nd team All-Pro's and 5 Pro Bowl invites. I have driven about 25-30 Hall of Famers here in Canton for Jane Bosley's monthly card/autograph show. I have had TEN of them over to my home. One of my standard questions I ask is " what players did you play with, or against, that is NOT in the Hall of Fame, that in your opinion , should be" Want to know how many of those 25-30 players, ( who many give me 3-5 names ) have named Charles Haley ? How about ZERO of them. As I said, I think Charles was a VERY good player, just not Hall of Fame "GREAT"
Hell, look at someone who didn't get in, ( who I think we can all agree WILL get in, but still, DIDN'T get elected last year, Willie Roaf. SIX times 1st team ALL-PRO, THREE times 2nd ALL-PRO, ELEVEN Pro-Bowls, and ALL-DECADE in the 1990's AND 2000's. Please explain how someone like THAT is in the same conversation as Charles Haley.
Now, about someone who DIDN'T make the cutdown to the Finalists. I just don't understand how Paul Tagliabue is NOT already in the Hall. Seventeen year commisioner, oversaw HUGE growth in the game, I believe approx. 18 NEW Stadiums were built during his tenure. I know he didn't have a great relationship with the media, ( many of which do the voting to get elected to the Hall ) but what are they trying to do ? " Teach him a lesson " GROW UP, and do the right thing. As I said, I just do NOT understand how he is not already in the Hall.
Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
I agree on Tagliabue...I'd always heard from multiple voters that it was due to the unfinished business (CBA) that he left. But with that now solved, it should be easy to look back and see how important he was to the explosion of the NFL during his tenure.
On why Haley is in the same discussion as Roaf.....Because you have 15 finalists. The selected voters vote, not the players (which I don't like...but that's another story I've explained multiple times on this thread...lol). I do think Haley is going to get in. Regardless of his PB/AP profile, he was a dominant pass rusher at times. And the voters have had a "thing" for pass rushers the past few years. He also was a MAJOR contributor towards all 5 of his rings. Not like he was just a filler, he was a difference maker in all of those season. I do NOT think he should be in before Roaf, nor many of the other current finalists. Based on where he has been in the voting process, I think he goes in sometime around 2015-2016. In the end, the majority of players who make the finals get elected. You look back at the Class of 2007 and earlier going all the way to the Class of 1970, and only 31 of ALL 253 of the finalists are not currently in the HOF. Based on these percentages, 15 of the 17 finalists this year will eventually gain induction.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I agree on Tagliabue...I'd always heard from multiple voters that it was due to the unfinished business (CBA) that he left. But with that now solved, it should be easy to look back and see how important he was to the explosion of the NFL during his tenure.
On why Haley is in the same discussion as Roaf.....Because you have 15 finalists. The selected voters vote, not the players (which I don't like...but that's another story I've explained multiple times on this thread...lol). I do think Haley is going to get in. Regardless of his PB/AP profile, he was a dominant pass rusher at times. And the voters have had a "thing" for pass rushers the past few years. He also was a MAJOR contributor towards all 5 of his rings. Not like he was just a filler, he was a difference maker in all of those season. I do NOT think he should be in before Roaf, nor many of the other current finalists. Based on where he has been in the voting process, I think he goes in sometime around 2015-2016. In the end, the majority of players who make the finals get elected. You look back at the Class of 2007 and earlier going all the way to the Class of 1970, and only 31 of ALL 253 of the finalists are not currently in the HOF. Based on these percentages, 15 of the 17 finalists this year will eventually gain induction.
Jason >>
Jason, I think you hit the nail on the head w/ your argument for Haley. Having such a strong part in helping the 49'ers and Cowboys win championships is why he'll eventually get into the HOF.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Comments
1. BART STARR (Green Bay, 1956-71)
Best season (1966): 156 for 251 (62.2%), 2,257 yards, 9.0 YPA, 14 TD, 3 INT, 105.0 passer rating
Career: 1,808 for 3,149 (57.4%), 24,718 yards, 7.8 YPA, 152 TD, 138 INT, 80.5 passer rating
Championships: 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967
Overview: That's right. Bart Starr. The greatest quarterback in the history of the game.
Sit down and take notes:
History has done a grave disservice to the legacy of Starr, the 17th-round draft pick out of pre-Bear Bryant Alabama who turned into the most clutch and most cruelly efficient passing assassin of his or any other generation.
History remembers Starr's legendary coach, and the bevy of Hall of Fame talent that surrounded him. It forgets that Starr was Lombardi's second in command, a tremendous big-game performer, and that the Packers of the 1960s would have been just another team without the prolific Starr as their beloved on-field leader. Instead, they won five NFL championships, with Starr at the helm of every single one of those title teams, while he crafted an NFL-record 9-1 postseason mark. The rings say it all: Starr is the only quarterback in history who has one for every finger on his throwing hand.
And even if you listen to teammates today, they make it pretty clear that they would have fallen on a grenade for Starr. Leadership is an elemental piece of quarterbacking – probably more important than gaudy passing stats. And that love his teammates had for their field general is an incredible sign of his leadership.
But forget, for a moment, the team accomplishments and the "intangibles" of leadership.
If you want to talk passing and statistics, we'll put Starr up against anybody. Anybody.
He led the NFL in passer rating five times. Johnny Unitas led the league in passer rating just twice. Ditto Joe Montana. Only Steve Young surpassed Starr's mark (six).
And, lest we forget, Starr was the best postseason passer in NFL history, as evidenced by his record 104.8 playoff passer rating and 1.41 percent interception rate, also a postseason record (CHFF readers are well aware of the importance of not throwing picks in the playoffs). Starr played in an era when 80 was a decent passer rating. Yet he still performed more efficiently in the playoffs than folks such as Montana, Brady, Manning, Marino, Young and ... well, anybody, ever.
There's a cause and effect here, folks: NFL's greatest dynasty, only winners of three-straight title games, and a record 9-1 postseason mark. And there, underlying it all, is Starr with his postseason passing records. The two are intricately intertwined.
History also remembers Starr's Packers as a great running team, and that's certainly true of their earlier years. But the truth is that they typically passed the ball more effectively than they ran it, especially during their run of three straight, when they were a below-average running team.
In their 1965 championship season, the Packers were 11th in the 14-team league with an average of 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. They were second in the league, with an average of 8.2 yards per passing attempt.
In their 1966 championship season, the Packers were 14th in the 15-team league, with an average of 3.5 yards per rushing attempt. They were first in the league, with an average of 8.9 yards per passing attempt.
In their 1967 championship season, the Packers were 4th in the 16-team league, with an average of 4.0 yards per rushing attempt. They were first in the league, with an average of 8.3 yards per passing attempt (Starr himself that season averaged 8.7 YPA).
Starr averaged a remarkable 7.85 YPA over the course of his entire career, the 8th-best mark in history, and better than that of a slate of quarterbacks who are generally regarded as the best passers in history, including Dan Marino (7.37), Joe Montana (7.52), Roger Staubach (7.67), Dan Fouts (7.68), Sonny Jurgensen (7.56), Fran Tarkenton (7.27), Y.A. Tittle (7.52), Terry Bradshaw (7.17) and Joe Namath (7.35).
Six times in the 1960s, Starr surpassed 8.2 YPA for a season. To put that into context, Peyton Manning has surpassed 8.2 YPA just twice in his brilliant 10-year career.
And, if you want drama, don't forget that Starr scored the winning TD in the Ice Bowl, probably the most famous game in NFL history. Sure, Montana led his team 92 yards for the game-winning score in Super Bowl XXIII. But he did it on a 68-degree night in Miami. Turn down the thermostat by 86 degrees (it was 18-below in the fourth quarter of the Ice Bowl) and you begin to approximate the conditions under which the greatest quarterback in NFL history operated during his greatest moment in the sport's greatest game.
And Starr was brilliant on that drive, in the decisive moments of the sport's most famous game: he completed 5 of 5 passes in ball-busting cold, and then called a run play for the winning score. But instead of handing it off, he decided in his mind, without telling his teammates, that he was going to punch it in himself. It was only fitting: the game's greatest signal-caller taking matters into his own hands in the sport's signature moment.
To cap his career achievements, Starr earned MVP honors in the first two Super Bowls after shredding the best the AFL could throw his way for 452 yards on 47 passing attempts (9.6 YPA). Among those victims were the 1967 Raiders, perhaps the AFL's greatest single team. He posted a combined 106.0 passer rating in those two games. If you think it was no small feat to beat up on "upstart" AFL teams, just look at how NFL quarterbacks fared in Super Bowls III and IV. (Here's a hint: they were embarrassed.)
When it comes to a combination of leadership, victories, big-game performances and statistical supremacy nobody – NOBODY – put together a more total package than Bart Starr, the greatest quarterback in NFL history.
VERY GOOD-EXCELLENT 4 1954 BOWMAN 23 GEORGE BLANDA
N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1968 TOPPS 173 FLOYD LITTLE
N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1971 TOPPS 210 CHARLIE SANDERS
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1972 TOPPS 93 TED HENDRICKS
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1973 TOPPS 115 JACK HAM
N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1977 TOPPS 380 DAVE CASPER ALL-PRO
GEM MINT 10 1989 SCORE 257 BARRY SANDERS
MINT 9 1989 SCORE 270 TROY AIKMAN
MINT 9 1990 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 101T EMMITT SMITH
My question is....Is the N6 that common? 33% of my cards were that way. The next, and this is from sheer frustration....Is the 1974 John Hannah impossible to find centered and print mark free? I have looked for that card for a solid year now and haven't found one that fits the bill. Really only looking to get an 8 out of it. Also...not to hijack a thread with a WTB ad, but if you have any 70's era cards that I am missing, let me know....really would like the 75 Swann, the 74 Hannah and the 76 Lambert in PSA 8. Thanks and really enjoying the thread.
Troy
Greedoguy
I though I posted in this thread earlier, but it isn't showing up. I am Greedoguy in the set registry for this amazing set and I am currently around 40% complete, starting the set in late 2010. I am looking to finish the decade of the 1970's now, so if you have any cards that I am missing from that era, please let me know. I am really looking for a 1974 John Hannah and a 1975 Lynn Swann in PSA 8, if anyone has them.
I have currently been trying to buy raw cards and submit them myself. Here is my latest submission:
VERY GOOD-EXCELLENT 4 1954 BOWMAN 23 GEORGE BLANDA
N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1968 TOPPS 173 FLOYD LITTLE
N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1971 TOPPS 210 CHARLIE SANDERS
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1972 TOPPS 93 TED HENDRICKS
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1973 TOPPS 115 JACK HAM
N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1977 TOPPS 380 DAVE CASPER ALL-PRO
GEM MINT 10 1989 SCORE 257 BARRY SANDERS
MINT 9 1989 SCORE 270 TROY AIKMAN
MINT 9 1990 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 101T EMMITT SMITH
The Aikman and Sanders I pulled from a lot of 5 $3.00 packs, so I was pleased to get those grades, however, I was frustrated with all of the N6's I had. A third of my submission came back this way. Is this normal? My next question is concerning the 1974 John Hannah...I am having a brutal time finding this card even remotely centered. Same with the 1974 Ray Guy. I am not a PSA member, I submit under the non member status, so I don't know the Pop reports on these guys, but they can't be huge. Has any one had any luck finding PSA 8ish centered copies?
Thanks for reading and I look forward to participating in this thread.
Troy
Welcome to the set! You'll find that we are a bunch of great guys who simply love football and collecting.
As for your submissions, I feel bad for you it's probably because the cards were trimmed by someone. Especially for older cards like those unforunately there are many people who will trim the cards to make the corners appear sharp. I rarely buy raw cards unless I can actully see the card in person(did you buy them online?). That doesn't mean you can't find some good deals on ebay, etc. but be careful and know the factory measurments of the cards you want when buying in person.
You are correct about the Hannah card, it's very difficult to find in high grades(look at the PSA Pop report). It took me a long time to find a PSA 9 and honestly my nine is a very poor one. Just keep looking and checking this thread and if any of these guys have one they'll offer it to you. We always try to help our fellow collectors.
All the best,
Doc
Today’s a big day for us in Canton. Tune in later this afternoon to find out who will comprise our list of semifinalists for the Class of 2012. The group will come from the 105 preliminary modern-era nominees that we released in September.
The announcement of the 2012 semifinalists will be made live on NFL Network’s Around the League Live broadcast during the 5:00 P.M. ET hour. You can then go in-depth with our coverage on Profootballhof.com.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
First-year candidates Bill Parcells and Will Shields are among the 26 semifinalists being considered for the Pro Football Hall of Fame's Class of 2012, it was announced Tuesday.
Although technically a first-year eligible candidate, Parcells has been a finalist twice before (2001, 2002) following his announced retirement as coach of the New York Jets in 1999. Parcells returned to coach the Dallas Cowboys in 2003, and the five-year waiting period was in effect when he retired from coaching in 2006.
The Hall of Fame's Selection Committee chose the 26 semifinalists from the previously announced list of 105 preliminary nominees.
In addition to the two first-year eligible nominees, four other previously eligible candidates -- Steve Atw@ter, Clay Matthews, Karl Mecklenburg and longtime contributor Ron Wolf -- made it to the semifinalists list for the first time. Each of the remaining 20 nominees on the selection committee's list has been a semifinalist at least once prior to this year.
The complete list of 26 modern-era semifinalists is as follows:
» Steve Atw@ter, S -- 1989-1998 Denver Broncos, 1999 New York Jets
» Jerome Bettis, RB -- 1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers
» Tim Brown, WR/KR -- 1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
» Cris Carter, WR -- 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins
» Don Coryell, Coach -- 1973-77 St. Louis Cardinals, 1978-1986 San Diego Chargers
» Roger Craig, RB -- 1983-1990 San Francisco 49ers, 1991 Los Angeles Raiders, 1992-93 Minnesota Vikings
» Terrell Davis, RB -- 1995-2001 Denver Broncos
» Dermontti Dawson, C -- 1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers
» Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner -- 1979-2000 San Francisco 49ers
» Chris Doleman, DE/LB -- 1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers
» Kevin Greene, LB/DE -- 1985-1992 Los Angeles Rams, 1993-95 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996, 1998-99 Carolina Panthers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers
» Charles Haley, DE/LB -- 1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys
» Cortez Kennedy, DT -- 1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks
» Curtis Martin, RB -- 1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets
» Clay Matthews, LB -- 1978-1993 Cleveland Browns, 1994-96 Atlanta Falcons
» Karl Mecklenburg, LB -- 1983-1994 Denver Broncos
» Bill Parcells, Coach -- 1983-1990 New York Giants, 1993-96 New England Patriots, 1997-99 New York Jets, 2003-06 Dallas Cowboys
» Andre Reed, WR -- 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins
» Willie Roaf, T -- 1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs
» Donnie Shell, S -- 1974-1987 Pittsburgh Steelers
» Will Shields, G -- 1993-2006 Kansas City Chiefs
» Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner -- 1989-2006 National Football League
» Steve Tasker, ST/WR -- 1985-86 Houston Oilers, 1986-1997 Buffalo Bills
» Aeneas Williams, CB/S -- 1991-2000 Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals, 2001-04 St. Louis Rams
» Ron Wolf, Contributor -- 1963-1974, 1978-1990 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders, 1975-77 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 1990 New York Jets, 1991-2001 Green Bay Packers
» George Young, Contributor -- 1968-1974 Baltimore Colts, 1975-78 Miami Dolphins, 1979-1997 New York Giants, 1998-2001 National Football League
The list of 26 semifinalists will be reduced by mail ballot to 15 modern-era finalists. That list increases to 17 finalist nominees with the inclusion of the two recommended candidates of the Hall of Fame's Seniors Committee: cornerback Jack Butler of the Steelers (1951-59) and guard Dick Stanfel of the Lions (1952-55) and Redskins (1956-58).
The results of the modern-era reduction vote to 15 finalists will be announced in early January, 2012.
The Class of 2012 will be determined at the Selection Committee's annual meeting on Saturday, Feb. 4, in Indianapolis the day before Super Bowl XLVI.
Also returning this year after missing the cut last year: Steve Tasker..He won't get in this year either
Falling off the list:
-The 5 who made the HOF last year
-Ray Guy and Lester Hayes, who moved to the Senior Pool
-Art Modell
Interesting that of the 4 new additions ( who have been eligible before but overlooked), three are defensive players, and one is former GM. Putting 10 offensive players, 9 defensive, 6 coaches/contributers, 1 special teamer in the pool.
Should be an interesting year, with onlt Parcells and Shields as 1st ballot possibles, and neither is a lock...Good year to clear out some logjams.
My guesses:
Parcells or Tagliabue...Only one will get in, I would think Parcells but Tagliabue had been held up by the CBA, which has been solved. May go with him after the long wait
Cortez Kennedy...Top defensive player, and has been the closest the last few years
Dawson, Roaf, or Shields...For me, I think that is the pecking order..But could realistically see any 1 of these 3 go in. All 3 are deserving and will get in at some point
Bettis, Martin, Reed...Again, I think this is the pecking order. 2 of these 3 I'm guessing will go in. Martin and Bettis are so close, could easily see them putting both in..But if Dawson gets the Steeler vote, could see Bettis getting pushed until next year.
Other possibles:
Tim Brown, Cris Carter (although Reed has gotten more support the last 2 votes)
Kevin Greene, Charles Haley (either could get a push if they vote heavy on the pash rushers
Wolf, Young, DeBartolo (as we've seen in recent years, its hard to judge the contributers)
Don't really see much of a shot for any of the others this time around.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd rank Martin ahead of Bettis. >>
+1 >>
Obvious Steelers bias from me, but why do some, if not most, consider Martin better than Bettis? Stats aside, and they weren't very much different, at all, why is Martin considered better? Name me one memorable moment from Martin's career? On the other hand, do it with Bettis. I bet you that there are a whole bunch more Bettis 'moments' than Martin moments. I honestly can't remember too much about Martin's career...very non-descript. If that factors into the equation at all, Bettis is head and shoulders above Martin. >>
I admit I don't know how to post a "link" to an article. I am NOT very computer savvy. If someone else could post it for me, I would be VERY GRATEFUL. Could someone PLEASE post a link, or the article itself. If you google sports-central Brad Oremland 2006 Five Quick Hits The article is from Feb. 14th. Scroll down to where he has "PROSPECTS" on capital letters. That article DETAILS why Jerome Bettis is NOT a Hall of Famer. >>
Here you go
Prospects
Since the Steelers won Super Bowl XL, there's been a lot of talk about Jerome Bettis and Bill Cowher going to Canton. I really like both men, but I'm here to tell you that neither one is a lock.
Cowher is 141-82-1 (.632) in the regular season and 12-9 (.571) in the postseason. Every one of his Steeler teams has finished in the top half of the league in total defense and points allowed. Cowher's greatest strength may be his ability to find talented assistants. His current staff includes Grimm, Dick LeBeau, and Ken Whisenhunt, all of whom are head coaching prospects.
That's a very impressive résumé, and Cowher — now 14th in career coaching victories — might get my vote if he retired today. I'd like to see him add a few more successful seasons, though, before the question marks disappear.
You'll notice I haven't mentioned the Super Bowl on Cowher's résumé. That's intentional. Is he a better coach today than he was two weeks ago? I thought before the big game that Cowher was a better coach than Mike Holmgren, and I still do.
The Bus is a trickier subject. Actually, there's nothing tricky, it's just that I don't want to be mean. Bettis does not deserve to make the Hall. In 13 seasons, Bettis never led the league in rushing yards, average, or touchdowns, and he was never regarded as the best running back in the game. To me, that seems like an obvious HOF criterion. If he was never — even at his best — considered the top player at his position, he was merely very good.
Despite consistent performance, Bettis only had three really good seasons. He was a top-10 rusher five times, but in two of those seasons — 1994 and 2000 — he clearly was not one of the top-10 RBs in the league. In '94, he averaged 3.2 yards per carry and rushed for only three touchdowns. In '00, he averaged 3.8 and had under 100 receiving yards. And in both seasons, he barely cracked the top 10 to begin with.
If Bettis is inducted, he will be only the second running back with a career average worse than four yards per carry. The first, John Riggins, retired as the third-leading rusher of all-time, was the second player ever to rush for 100 touchdowns, held the NFL's single-season TD record, and was arguably the greatest postseason rusher of all-time. Riggins once had six straight 100-yard games in the postseason, including his 166-yard MVP performance in Super Bowl XVII. Bettis had only three 100-yard games in the postseason during his career, with a high of 105.
If Bettis is inducted, he will have the fewest rushing TDs of any RB who played during or after 1980, and the lowest rushing TDs per game of any HOF running back who played after the AFL merger. He will have the second-fewest receptions, receiving yards, and receiving TDs of any RB who played 16-game seasons for his whole career, ahead of only Earl Campbell, who retired after eight seasons.
Bettis is the Rafael Palmeiro of running backs, except that he's probably not a steroid user. The big career numbers are from being good and playing a lot, not from being great. He had a mediocre rushing average, he wasn't a great short-yardage back until past his prime, he couldn't catch, and he was never a big-game player.
The Bus will probably get in — it doesn't hurt that he's so well-liked — but he shouldn't and he isn't a lock.
Brad Oremland article >>
Jerome didn't deserve to go in The Hall of Fame in 2011, and he doesn't deserve to go in The Hall of Fame in 2012.
Rocke
The bus was very likeable and went out a winner.
However, if we are comparing 3 best seasons.....then T Davis blows his doors off.
Having more of anything over E Campbell is like comparing campbells's regular soup to chunky. Earl was a monster. period.
Howe many times did our jaws drop watching earl run around everyone to the outside for 20 yards? Countless.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
We must also remember, HOF induction is not how great a players best 3 years were...Just as importantly it is about longevity...Not many post-war HOFers with fewer than 100 career games played. That's the only thing keeping Terrell Davis out...Once Bettis and Martin go in however, Davis will have his best chance at induction.
Consider this:
Only other HOF possible RB to compete with Davis after Bettis and Martin is Roger Craig. Craig's eligibility runs out in 2018...The only RB on the horizon who will get any HOF consideration in the near future is Edgerrin James, who will join the crowd in 2015...Davis will get a hard look as a finalist in the coming years....Debatable to be able to say his dominance was enough to overcome his lack of longevity (ala Gale Sayers)...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
if the packers keeping going it might help Wolf and Greene. Greene has done a great job with the OLBs but coaching isnt why he would make it but it does keep his name in the news.
as for Wolf, if it wasnt for him the Packers still wouldnt be where they are today. their turn around started with him. they have been the most consistent team in the NFL during the salary cap era record wise. not yet title wise but there appears to be time for that to change too.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
So trying to use that as sensible reasoning just doesn't cut it.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>When it comes to a combination of leadership, victories, big-game performances and statistical supremacy nobody – NOBODY – put together a more total package than Bart Starr, the greatest quarterback in NFL history >>
The above posting is a partial from the best posting I have ever read on this thread. Just want to acknowledge Cardbender for articulating his take on Starr so factually and eloquently.
Thank you.
That having been said, is this Starr rookie worthy of an 8.5?
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Beautiful card but I say no shot at 8.5 due to wax on back. Suprised it didn't get an ST qualifier. >>
No wax stains on back, just a bit of a dirty scan. Teeny corner hit bot/rt. Rest of card blazes. I have not seen any of the three 9's, but this is the best 8 I have ever seen by far.
I would say it's worth a try.
In the past I have had a few cards given st qual for back wax stains.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
It was from the article from the previous page. I simply cut and pasted it.
For some reason it didn't show up in italics. I do however completely agree
with it for all the stated reasons, although I have a bias towards Bart Starr
and his accomplishments. All he did was win.
Wonderful Bart Starr RC you have there.
The front does look 8.5ish. The back might prevent the bump.
Still, it's an outstanding example.
<< <i>I have a bias towards Bart Starr
and his accomplishments. All he did was win. >>
So did Otto Graham, but he doesn't get any love . . .
get more love is four of his ten years were in the AAFC, so he only played in six NFL seasons.
He was just a winner too, like Starr. It's really unreal that Graham played 10 years and was
in 10 league championships, winning seven titles.
I personally find the AAFC history and players fascinating, but it seems like their
legitimacy is treated as badly as the first five seasons of the AFL. With no respect.
Plus Starr's career was part of the Super Bowl era, which seems to be the era
where most of the current so-called football experts seem to think that's when football
all began. Ignoring the first 48 years of the NFL, AAFC, and early AFL years and players.
So Starr gets more ink than Graham because his career spanned the golden era of
football and the modern era too (Super Bowl era).
<< <i>What would be THE Donald Driver RC to get?.....only one I can find is the Fleer Focus. Would that be THE one? >>
Yes, the Fleer Focus is the one to get. Not the Emerald (serial to 300) the regular is to 3850. I think I have a RAW one here that will grade an 8. Won't make a 9.
View Vintage Football Cards For Sale
OFFENSE
Quarterback
Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay, 47 1-2; Drew Brees, New Orleans, 2 1-2.
x-Running Backs
Maurice Jones-Drew, Jacksonville, 40; LeSean McCoy, Philadelphia, 29; Ray Rice, Baltimore, 24;
Arian Foster, Houston, 3; Frank Gore, San Francisco, 1; Matt Forte, Chicago, 1; Darren Sproles, New Orleans, 1.
Fullback
Vonta Leach, Baltimore, 42; John Kuhn, Green Bay, 6; Marcel Reece, Oakland, 2.
Tight End
Rob Gronkowski, New England, 44 1-2; Jimmy Graham, New Orleans, 5 1-2.
Wide Receivers
Calvin Johnson, Detroit, 49; Wes Welker, New England, 23; Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona, 15; Victor Cruz, New York Giants, 9; Steve Smith, Carolina, 2; Jordy Nelson, Green Bay, 1; Mike Wallace, Pittsburgh, 1.
Tackles
Jason Peters, Philadelphia, 27; Joe Thomas, Cleveland, 19; Duane Brown, Houston, 11; Joe Staley, San Francisco, 11; Eric Winston, Houston, 10; Jake Long, Miami, 5; Jermon Bushrod, New Orleans, 3; Andrew Whitworth, Cincinnati, 3; Bryan Bulaga, Green Bay, 3; Michael Oher, Baltimore, 2; Jared Veldheer, Oakland, 2; Tyron Smith, Dallas, 1; Anthony Davis, San Francisco, 1; Jordan Gross, Carolina, 1; Michael Roos, Tennessee, 1.
Guards
Jahri Evans, New Orleans, 29; Carl Nicks, New Orleans, 27; Marshal Yanda, Baltimore, 17; Logan Mankins, New England, 10; Brian Waters, New England, 5; Chris Kuper, Denver, 4; Davin Joseph, Tampa Bay, 3; Chris Snee, New York Giants, 2; Evan Mathis, Philadelphia, 2; Mike Iupati, San Francisco, 1.
Center
Maurkice Pouncey, Pittsburgh, 13; Ryan Kalil, Carolina, 11; Nick Mangold, New York Jets, 11; Chris Myers, Houston, 7; Scott Wells, Green Bay, 7; John Sullivan, Minnesota, 1.
Placekicker
David Akers, San Francisco, 32; Sebastian Janikowski, Oakland, 14; Rob Bironas, Tennessee, 1; Matt Bryant, Atlanta, 1; Matt Prater, Denver, 1; Josh Scobee, Jacksonville, 1.
Kick Returner
Patrick Peterson, Arizona, 33; Devin Hester, Chicago, 10; Darren Sproles, New Orleans, 3; Ted Ginn Jr., San Francisco, 2; Antonio Brown, Pittsburgh, 1; Joe McKnight, New York Jets, 1.
___
DEFENSE
Ends
Jared Allen, Minnesota, 49; Jason Pierre-Paul, New York Giants, 34; Justin Smith, San Francisco, 9; Jason Babin, Philadelphia, 7; Elvis Dumervil, Denver, 1.
Tackles
Haloti Ngata, Baltimore, 38; Justin Smith, San Francisco, 35; Geno Atkins, Cincinnati, 9; Richard Seymour, Oakland, 5; Vince Wilfork, New England, 5; B.J. Raji, Green Bay, 1; Calais Campbell, Arizona, 1; Henry Melton, Chicago, 1; Mike Patterson, Philadelphia, 1; Sione Pouha, New York Jets, 1; Jay Ratliff, Dallas, 1; Ndamukong Suh, Detroit, 1; J.J. Watt, Houston, 1.
Outside Linebackers
Terrell Suggs, Baltimore, 47; DeMarcus Ware, Dallas, 42; Tamba Hali, Kansas City, 4; Von Miller, Denver, 4; Clay Matthews, Green Bay, 2; Sean Weatherspoon, Atlanta, 1.
Inside Linebacker
Patrick Willis, San Francisco, 32; NaVorro Bowman, San Francisco, 16; Derrick Johnson, Kansas City, 16; Brian Cushing, Houston, 13; London Fletcher, Washington, 8; Ray Lewis, Baltimore, 3; Brian Urlacher, Chicago, 3; Daryl Washington, Arizona, 3; Lance Briggs, Chicago, 2; D'Qwell Jackson, Cleveland, 2; DeMeco Ryans, Houston, 1; Lawrence Timmons, Pittsburgh, 1;
Cornerbacks
Darrelle Revis, NY Jets, 48; Charles Woodson, Green Bay, 19; Johnathan Joseph, Houston, 18; Carlos Rogers, San Francisco, 10; Champ Bailey, Denver, 3; Brandon Flowers, Kansas City, 1; Charles Tillman, Chicago, 1.
Safeties
Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh, 29; Eric Weddle, San Diego, 20; Ed Reed, Baltimore, 17; Earl Thomas, Seattle, 16; Kam Chancellor, Seattle, 5; Adrian Wilson, Arizona, 4; Dashon Goldson, San Francisco, 3; Jairus Byrd, Buffalo, 2; Bernard Pollard, Baltimore, 2; Roman Harper, New Orleans, 1; Tyvon Branch, Oakland, 1.
Punter
Andy Lee, San Francisco, 29; Shane Lechler, Oakland, 20; Britton Colquitt, Denver, 1.
___
x-one voter selected only one running back.
Some thoughts here as it relates to the HOF and future HOFer sets.
OT Joe Thomas raises his profile to 5 Pro Bowls, 3 First Team All-Pro. Still a tad early in his career, but starting to get close. Needs another 2 years with at least 1 more Pro Bowl/All-Pro year.
DE Jared Allen is now 4 Pro Bowls, 4 All-Pros (every active player with 4+ All-Pro selections is already part of the Future HOF set- Modern)
LB DeMarcus Ware jumps to a 6 PB, 4 AP guy, and increases his future HOF odds greatly
LB Patrick Willis ALREADY a 5 PB, 4 All-Pro...Only problem is that he has only played 76 NFL games. EXTREMELY rare for post-war players to make the HOF with less than 100 games played. Only 5 years in league, IMO hasn't played long enough (need a couple more years) to warrant HOF consideration. But he already has the resume.
CB Darrelle Revis is up to 4 PB, 3 All-Pro in 5 seasons..Not quite there, like Willis only played in 77 games..But certainly looks to be headed that way.
CB Charles Woodson now an 8 PB, 3 AP. Add in the Super Bowl ring and DPOY and he's all but a HOF lock at this point. Approaching first ballot status.
S Troy Polamalu was selected as well, raising his profile to 7 PB, 4 AP. He was already a HOF lock with his Super Bowl titles, but we may finally have a Safety who won;t have a problem getting into the HOF. Also approaching first ballot status.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>OT Joe Thomas raises his profile to 5 Pro Bowls, 3 First Team All-Pro. Still a tad early in his career, but starting to get close. Needs another 2 years with at least 1 more Pro Bowl/All-Pro year.
DE Jared Allen is now 4 Pro Bowls, 4 All-Pros (every active player with 4+ All-Pro selections is already part of the Future HOF set- Modern)
LB DeMarcus Ware jumps to a 6 PB, 4 AP guy, and increases his future HOF odds greatly
LB Patrick Willis ALREADY a 5 PB, 4 All-Pro...Only problem is that he has only played 76 NFL games. EXTREMELY rare for post-war players to make the HOF with less than 100 games played. Only 5 years in league, IMO hasn't played long enough (need a couple more years) to warrant HOF consideration. But he already has the resume.
CB Darrelle Revis is up to 4 PB, 3 All-Pro in 5 seasons..Not quite there, like Willis only played in 77 games..But certainly looks to be headed that way.
CB Charles Woodson now an 8 PB, 3 AP. Add in the Super Bowl ring and DPOY and he's all but a HOF lock at this point. Approaching first ballot status.
S Troy Polamalu was selected as well, raising his profile to 7 PB, 4 AP. He was already a HOF lock with his Super Bowl titles, but we may finally have a Safety who won;t have a problem getting into the HOF. Also approaching first ballot status.
>>
Anyone know if these players have clear-cut, in terms of set registry purposes, key rookie cards?
<< <i>
<< <i>OT Joe Thomas raises his profile to 5 Pro Bowls, 3 First Team All-Pro. Still a tad early in his career, but starting to get close. Needs another 2 years with at least 1 more Pro Bowl/All-Pro year.
DE Jared Allen is now 4 Pro Bowls, 4 All-Pros (every active player with 4+ All-Pro selections is already part of the Future HOF set- Modern)
LB DeMarcus Ware jumps to a 6 PB, 4 AP guy, and increases his future HOF odds greatly
LB Patrick Willis ALREADY a 5 PB, 4 All-Pro...Only problem is that he has only played 76 NFL games. EXTREMELY rare for post-war players to make the HOF with less than 100 games played. Only 5 years in league, IMO hasn't played long enough (need a couple more years) to warrant HOF consideration. But he already has the resume.
CB Darrelle Revis is up to 4 PB, 3 All-Pro in 5 seasons..Not quite there, like Willis only played in 77 games..But certainly looks to be headed that way.
CB Charles Woodson now an 8 PB, 3 AP. Add in the Super Bowl ring and DPOY and he's all but a HOF lock at this point. Approaching first ballot status.
S Troy Polamalu was selected as well, raising his profile to 7 PB, 4 AP. He was already a HOF lock with his Super Bowl titles, but we may finally have a Safety who won;t have a problem getting into the HOF. Also approaching first ballot status.
>>
Anyone know if these players have clear-cut, in terms of set registry purposes, key rookie cards? >>
off the top of my head:
2005 Topps Chrome DeMarcus Ware
1998 Sp Authentic Charles Woodson
2003 Sp Authentic Troy Polamalu
Willis, Thomas and Revis all should be the Topps Chrome as well, not sure about Allen.
<< <i>
off the top of my head:
2005 Topps Chrome DeMarcus Ware
1998 Sp Authentic Charles Woodson
2003 Sp Authentic Troy Polamalu
Willis, Thomas and Revis all should be the Topps Chrome as well, not sure about Allen. >>
These are all correct. The Jared Allen is 2004 SP Authentic.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
off the top of my head:
2005 Topps Chrome DeMarcus Ware
1998 Sp Authentic Charles Woodson
2003 Sp Authentic Troy Polamalu
Willis, Thomas and Revis all should be the Topps Chrome as well, not sure about Allen. >>
These are all correct. The Jared Allen is 2004 SP Authentic.
Jason >>
Yep, those look right.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
The Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee’s 17 finalists (15 modern-era and two senior nominees*) with their positions, teams, and years active follow:
Jerome Bettis – Running Back – 1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers
Tim Brown – Wide Receiver/Kick Returner – 1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Jack Butler* – Cornerback – 1951-59 Pittsburgh Steelers
Cris Carter – Wide Receiver – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins
Dermontti Dawson – Center – 1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers
Edward DeBartolo, Jr. – Owner – 1977-2000 San Francisco 49ers
Chris Doleman – Defensive End/Linebacker – 1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers
Kevin Greene – Linebacker/Defensive End – 1985-1992 Los Angeles Rams, 1993-95 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996, 1998-99 Carolina Panthers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers
Charles Haley – Defensive End/Linebacker – 1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys
Cortez Kennedy – Defensive Tackle – 1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks
Curtis Martin – Running Back – 1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets
Bill Parcells – Coach – 1983-1990 New York Giants, 1993-96 New England Patriots, 1997-99 New York Jets, 2003-06 Dallas Cowboys
Andre Reed – Wide Receiver – 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins
Willie Roaf – Tackle – 1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs
Will Shields – Guard – 1993-2006 Kansas City Chiefs
Dick Stanfel* – Guard – 1952-55 Detroit Lions, 1956-58 Washington Redskins
Aeneas Williams – Cornerback/Safety – 1991-2000 Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals, 2001-04 St. Louis Rams
And the logjam at WR continues. They may need to put in a full modern class of nothing but WRs some year to clear it.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Finalists were named today. Pretty much exactly what I expected:
The Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee’s 17 finalists (15 modern-era and two senior nominees*) with their positions, teams, and years active follow:
Jerome Bettis – Running Back – 1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers
Tim Brown – Wide Receiver/Kick Returner – 1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Jack Butler* – Cornerback – 1951-59 Pittsburgh Steelers
Cris Carter – Wide Receiver – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins
Dermontti Dawson – Center – 1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers
Edward DeBartolo, Jr. – Owner – 1977-2000 San Francisco 49ers
Chris Doleman – Defensive End/Linebacker – 1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers
Kevin Greene – Linebacker/Defensive End – 1985-1992 Los Angeles Rams, 1993-95 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996, 1998-99 Carolina Panthers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers
Charles Haley – Defensive End/Linebacker – 1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys
Cortez Kennedy – Defensive Tackle – 1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks
Curtis Martin – Running Back – 1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets
Bill Parcells – Coach – 1983-1990 New York Giants, 1993-96 New England Patriots, 1997-99 New York Jets, 2003-06 Dallas Cowboys
Andre Reed – Wide Receiver – 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins
Willie Roaf – Tackle – 1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs
Will Shields – Guard – 1993-2006 Kansas City Chiefs
Dick Stanfel* – Guard – 1952-55 Detroit Lions, 1956-58 Washington Redskins
Aeneas Williams – Cornerback/Safety – 1991-2000 Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals, 2001-04 St. Louis Rams >>
I have everyone covered except the 2 senior candidates, Shields, and Doleman. I have about 10 raw Dolemans, but I guess I should just go ahead and buy one on eBay just to be safe.
-Donnie Shell moves to the Senior Pool.
-Aeneas Williams, Kevin Greene, Eddie DeBartolo...All 3 are first time finalists who were previously a semifinalist. These are the names "moving up" the list.
-Somewhat surprised Tagliabue didn't jump back into the finalist group with the CBA now solved. Going to make it tough to predict, if/when he gets in.
-None of the semifinalist will be in their final modern year of candidacy next year. We will also be adding Jon Ogden, Larry Allen, Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan, John Lynch, Morten Andersen and Rueben Brown next year. At least 4 of these 7 will be semifinalists next year.
My predictions for induction this year:
Dick Stanfel
Jack Butler
Bill Parcells (possible DeBatolo)...Only one will get in, I think it will be Bill Parcells as his chances of coaching again seem to be nil
Cortez Kennedy (possible Haley/Doleman/Greene)...Top defensive player, and has been the closest the last few years, and i think he goes in this year. Unless the voters go on a pass rusher quest again
Dermontti Dawson (possible Roaf/Shields)...For me, I think Dawson has been waiting the longest and was the most dominant of this group. But really a crap shoot since all 3 played different positions on the line.
Curtis Martin (possible Bettis)...With Dawson going in, I don't think Bettis gets in this time. Also don't think they will take 2 RB with so many great WR's on the board
Andre Reed (possible Carter/Brown)...Reed has gotten the most support and been closer the last 2 votes. With a weak 1st ballot class this year, they finally break the WR logjam and Reed gets in. Carter or Brown could also very easily be the WR, just basing my opinion on the last 2 votes.
Wildcard is Aeneas Williams....First time he will be discussed in the room of voters, and if they push for a 2nd defensive player, Williams could take the spot of any of the 5 modern guys except Kennedy.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Willie Roaf, Will Shields, Charles Haley, Jerome Bettis, Cris Carter, Dick Stanfel, Dermontti Dawson.
I say that, knowing full well that there is almost NO chance that the voters will select that many linemen. But, wouldn't it be a great group?
<< <i>I've heard some people say that this won't be a great class. I think just the opposite. I think you can put together a dynamite class out of this group. I think every single player in that final 17 could make a very strong case. None of them would be out of place in the Hall. Now that we have the final grouping, I'll make my selections:
Willie Roaf, Will Shields, Charles Haley, Jerome Bettis, Cris Carter, Dick Stanfel, Dermontti Dawson.
I say that, knowing full well that there is almost NO chance that the voters will select that many linemen. But, wouldn't it be a great group? >>
I was upset when Willie did not get in first ballot last year. I have known him since he was a Freshman at La Tech and I was a junior in high school working out at Techs facilities. I am very biased towards Willie so I will always regard him as the best ever in my book. No argument could ever sway me.
I always thought Haley should be in. Same with Cris Carter and Dawson. I think they have been 3 of the biggest snubs the last few years.
I have no idea on who the class will be even though I think Reed and Martin both get their name called.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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<< <i>Powdered - you have 6 modern candidates in your group, and they can't select more than 5.
Nick >>
Highlights the difficulty in whittling this group to 5. As mentioned above, really an argument can be made for all 15 of them, but with zero NO BRAINER 1st ballot guys this season, really going to make it an interesting group to select.
The senior candidates are not part of the debate. They are simply a yes/no vote. The modern guys get cut to 10, then to 5, and then those 5 get a yes/no vote. The past 4 years the 5 modern candidates who made the yes/no vote (must get 80%) all got voted in. Last year, these guys made the cut to the final 10 but not the top 5:
Willie Roaf-2011 was his first ballot
Curtis Martin-2011 was his first ballot
Andre Reed- Also made the final 10 in 2010
Dermontti Dawson- Also made the final 10 in 2010
Cortez Kennedy- Also made the final 10 in 2010
Meaning they got more votes than these guys who were in the final 15, but not the final 10:
Cris Carter
Jerome Bettis
Tim Brown
Charles Haley
Chris Doleman
While these "pecking orders" don't always ring true, in the past 5 years, here are the HOFers who were inducted WITHOUT making the cut to the final 10 the previous year(excluding 1st ballot guys of course):
2011- Ed Sabol...Was never even a semifinalist before last year
2010- Rickey Jackson...Was a semifinalist in 2008, but didn't even make the top 25 in 2009 before being elected in 2010
2009- Ralph Wilson...Was a semifinalist in 2006, was not top 25 in 2007 or 2008
2008- Gary Zimmerman...Was a finalist in 2007, but did not make the cut to 10
So it seems as if there is a wildcard each year. 3 of the 4 were seemingly "out of nowhere"...If there is to be another one this year, it would seem these 3 are that type of underdogs:
Aeneas Williams
Kevin Greene
Eddie DeBartolo
The Vegas odds will be on either the first ballot guys Parcells and Shields, or these 5 who just missed last year:
Willie Roaf
Curtis Martin
Andre Reed
Dermontti Dawson
Cortez Kennedy
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Now, just a thought or two about this year finalists, and about someone who didn't make the cut. I am not going to go into why Jerome Bettis does NOT belong in the Hall. For anyone that missed that , go back to Page 381, and look at my post on 11-23-2011.
No this is about another former VERY GOOD player, who, in my opinion, is not even close to being Hall of Fame worthy. Why, exactly, does Charles Haley deserve election, to The Hall of Fame? He played 12 years, and had exactly TWO interceptions, and eight fumble recoveries. He did have 100.5 sacks.....I'll give him that, very impressive. Oh, five Super Bowl Rings.....
SO WHAT !!!!!
So, because he won 5 rings, he belongs in the Hall of Fame????
So, among other Frank Crosetti (8), Johnny Murphy (7), Joe Collins (6), Charlie Keller (6), and Charlie Silvera (6) all belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame ???? There are MANY others that have won six OR MORE World Series, that I did NOT list. Also, let's get a campaign going to get, among others, Satch Sanders (8), Jim Loscutoff (7), Larry Siegfried (5), and Steve Kerr (5) elected to the Basketball Hall of Fame, since they all won the same, or more championships than Charles Haley. There are other basketball players with 5 or more, but you get the idea.
Charles was selected to five pro-bowls, and 1st team All-Pro twice, and zero 2nd team All-Pro. I'll bet there are AT LEAST a couple of hundred players with more than TWO 1st ot 2nd team All-Pro's and 5 Pro Bowl invites. I have driven about 25-30 Hall of Famers here in Canton for Jane Bosley's monthly card/autograph show. I have had TEN of them over to my home. One of my standard questions I ask is " what players did you play with, or against, that is NOT in the Hall of Fame, that in your opinion , should be" Want to know how many of those 25-30 players, ( who many give me 3-5 names ) have named Charles Haley ? How about ZERO of them. As I said, I think Charles was a VERY good player, just not Hall of Fame "GREAT"
Hell, look at someone who didn't get in, ( who I think we can all agree WILL get in, but still, DIDN'T get elected last year, Willie Roaf. SIX times 1st team ALL-PRO, THREE times 2nd ALL-PRO, ELEVEN Pro-Bowls, and ALL-DECADE in the 1990's AND 2000's. Please explain how someone like THAT is in the same conversation as Charles Haley.
Now, about someone who DIDN'T make the cutdown to the Finalists. I just don't understand how Paul Tagliabue is NOT already in the Hall. Seventeen year commisioner, oversaw HUGE growth in the game, I believe approx. 18 NEW Stadiums were built during his tenure. I know he didn't have a great relationship with the media, ( many of which do the voting to get elected to the Hall ) but what are they trying to do ? " Teach him a lesson " GROW UP, and do the right thing. As I said, I just do NOT understand how he is not already in the Hall.
Rocke
On why Haley is in the same discussion as Roaf.....Because you have 15 finalists. The selected voters vote, not the players (which I don't like...but that's another story I've explained multiple times on this thread...lol). I do think Haley is going to get in. Regardless of his PB/AP profile, he was a dominant pass rusher at times. And the voters have had a "thing" for pass rushers the past few years. He also was a MAJOR contributor towards all 5 of his rings. Not like he was just a filler, he was a difference maker in all of those season. I do NOT think he should be in before Roaf, nor many of the other current finalists. Based on where he has been in the voting process, I think he goes in sometime around 2015-2016. In the end, the majority of players who make the finals get elected. You look back at the Class of 2007 and earlier going all the way to the Class of 1970, and only 31 of ALL 253 of the finalists are not currently in the HOF. Based on these percentages, 15 of the 17 finalists this year will eventually gain induction.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I agree on Tagliabue...I'd always heard from multiple voters that it was due to the unfinished business (CBA) that he left. But with that now solved, it should be easy to look back and see how important he was to the explosion of the NFL during his tenure.
On why Haley is in the same discussion as Roaf.....Because you have 15 finalists. The selected voters vote, not the players (which I don't like...but that's another story I've explained multiple times on this thread...lol). I do think Haley is going to get in. Regardless of his PB/AP profile, he was a dominant pass rusher at times. And the voters have had a "thing" for pass rushers the past few years. He also was a MAJOR contributor towards all 5 of his rings. Not like he was just a filler, he was a difference maker in all of those season. I do NOT think he should be in before Roaf, nor many of the other current finalists. Based on where he has been in the voting process, I think he goes in sometime around 2015-2016. In the end, the majority of players who make the finals get elected. You look back at the Class of 2007 and earlier going all the way to the Class of 1970, and only 31 of ALL 253 of the finalists are not currently in the HOF. Based on these percentages, 15 of the 17 finalists this year will eventually gain induction.
Jason >>
Jason, I think you hit the nail on the head w/ your argument for Haley. Having such a strong part in helping the 49'ers and Cowboys win championships is why he'll eventually get into the HOF.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.