<< <i>As a Packer fan I'd love to see Kramer. Maybe with them winning the last SB he will get a push?? >>
I have contended B4 that it is an atrocity that Kramer and Karras have been overlooked for so long. I can create a mile long list of several "slobs" that have already been accepted that look weak next to these two studs of the '60's. Stanfel and Butler? Really???? HOF looking more and more like a joke IMO.
I don't know much about Butler and Stanfel and they may be household names in Detroit and Pittsburgh, but are they HOF worthy players? Any insights from you guys??
<< <i>I don't know much about Butler and Stanfel and they may be household names in Detroit and Pittsburgh, but are they HOF worthy players? Any insights from you guys??
Doc >>
While I didn't see him play his list of accomplishments are pretty impressive:
5 All Pro selections & 5 Pro Bowls in his 7 year career Member of the the NFL's All-Decade Team of the 1950s 3 X League Champion Voted team MVP after the 1953 season
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
What a horrible year for Football HOF'ers. Lee Roy Selmon passed away today. Selmon is the 7th HOF to pass away in 2011. Lets hope this horrible run ends.
February: Ollie Matson April: Joe Perry May: Andy Robustelli June: John Henry Johnson July: John Mackey August: Pete Pihos September: Lee Roy Selmon
<< <i>What odds do you guys give to Butler and Stanfel getting elected to the HOF? Are the Senior candidates usually an automatic shoe-in?
Doc >>
Odds of neither getting in= 1% Odds of at least 1 getting in=99% Odds of both getting in= 75%
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I don't know much about Butler and Stanfel and they may be household names in Detroit and Pittsburgh, but are they HOF worthy players? Any insights from you guys??
Doc >>
While I didn't see him play his list of accomplishments are pretty impressive:
5 All Pro selections & 5 Pro Bowls in his 7 year career Member of the the NFL's All-Decade Team of the 1950s 2 X League Champion Voted team MVP after the 1953 season
you ever wonder why there are certain cards with very few graded?
I know he is not a HOFer yet, but he is as close to a lock as anyone else.
I just got this back from PSA. I thought it had a very good shot at a 10.
Not too bummed with a 9, but very surprized to see the pop on this once I logged it in
PSA 9 is a pop 8 with only 2 higher?
Really?
I paid $6 for a small lot of 97 SPA rookies and it cost me another $6 to get this one graded. You would think there would be at least 25-50 of these floating around.
This 1932 GB Packers Walkers Cleaners set is the ONE collectible to have! They are so rare that they hardly ever come up for sale. Being from Green Bay originally, I never even see them there.
I saw that on ebay also. I was born and raised in GB and I've never seen one in person either. Earlier this year Heritage Auctions had a complete set for sale and it was the first one I'd ever seen. If I remember correctly the reserve was $10k and it did not sell. Too rich for me!
<< <i>I saw that on ebay also. I was born and raised in GB and I've never seen one in person either. Earlier this year Heritage Auctions had a complete set for sale and it was the first one I'd ever seen. If I remember correctly the reserve was $10k and it did not sell. Too rich for me!
Great pics from that 30's era.
Doc >>
$10 K seems darn cheap to me to have an impossible to find Lambeau and Blood alone all of the other HOF'ers.
<< <i>I don't know much about Butler and Stanfel and they may be household names in Detroit and Pittsburgh, but are they HOF worthy players? Any insights from you guys??
Doc >>
While I didn't see him play his list of accomplishments are pretty impressive:
5 All Pro selections & 5 Pro Bowls in his 7 year career Member of the the NFL's All-Decade Team of the 1950s 2 X League Champion Voted team MVP after the 1953 season
3× Pro Bowl selection 5× First-Team All-Pro selection (1960, 1962, 1963, 1966, 1967) 1× Second-Team All-Pro selection (1968) 5× NFL champion (1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967) 2× Super Bowl champion (I, II) NFL 1960s All-Decade Team NFL 50th Anniversary Team
but this player cant make it in and played the same position. and was picked over dick for the 50th NFL team. >>
Stanfel was either an All Pro or a Pro Bowler for 6 out of his 7 year career. His career was short but he was the best at his position for nearly every year he played. IMO that makes him the stronger candidate.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Very nice Walter Jones RC. I cant seem to find one of those in PSA 9. Let me know if you want to sell. Not sure if the low pop is becasue of the condition sensitive or just not submitted.
That Blood is on my want list also but thats alot of $$. I have his matchbook that will have to hold me over for now.
Yes, the matchbook is great and I had lead on one some years back for a decent price ($250 or so) but he was on Pittsburgh so I could not pull the trigger. Wish I did now though.
Yup. It used to be 800 catches and 12,000 yards. Now it's done by vote when a player is nominated.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>so what are the stats required for the all time wr set??
Driver is at 703 catches and 9,666 yards. >>
I think typically they look for 12k yards or for a HOF lock. >>
Tim Brown- 14,934 Cris Carter- 13,899 Henry Ellard 13,777 Andre Reed- 13,198 Irving Fryar- 12,785 Jimmy Smith- 12,287
All above have been passed over for the HOF...Meaning none were locks. I guess its 15K for a LOCK until Isaac Bruce gets passed over (and he will not be a first ballot HOFer)
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>so what are the stats required for the all time wr set??
Driver is at 703 catches and 9,666 yards. >>
I think typically they look for 12k yards or for a HOF lock. >>
Tim Brown- 14,934 Cris Carter- 13,899 Henry Ellard 13,777 Andre Reed- 13,198 Irving Fryar- 12,785 Jimmy Smith- 12,287
All above have been passed over for the HOF...Meaning none were locks. I guess its 15K for a LOCK until Isaac Bruce gets passed over (and he will not be a first ballot HOFer)
Jason >>
I was not saying 12k gets you in the HOF. I said it gets you in the set, just like being a HOF lock does.
For anyone interested, will be selling off a few from my collection as I consolidate and reorganize. Not everything is for sale, but don't be afraid to ask. Also check out my future HOF sets and Team sets as well if you are looking for any of those.
VCP can be used as a guide and/or starting point. But those who know me well are aware that I've probably gone through anywhere between 2 and 5 cards of every player on my HOF set in order to collect the best looking examples I could find. So many of the cards cost me (and hence will be sold) for more than the VCP average.
Send me a PM or e-mail at jabeduco@yahoo.com if I have anything you want or need.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>For anyone interested, will be selling off a few from my collection as I consolidate and reorganize. Not everything is for sale, but don't be afraid to ask. Also check out my future HOF sets and Team sets as well if you are looking for any of those.
VCP can be used as a guide and/or starting point. But those who know me well are aware that I've probably gone through anywhere between 2 and 5 cards of every player on my HOF set in order to collect the best looking examples I could find. So many of the cards cost me (and hence will be sold) for more than the VCP average.
An online exhibit titled, "The Dutch Sternaman Collection" launched today on Profootballhof.com. The online exhibit focuses on the recent donation of a comprehensive collection of original documents from the early years of the NFL and the Chicago Bears.
It represents the most complete collection of its type in the Hall of Fame's archives including original documents pertaining to one of the NFL's most important historical events, the signing of Harold "Red" Grange in 1925 and his ensuing cross-country barnstorming tour with the Bears.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>We all know we'll never agree on ANY top ten list of players, but you at least have to admit the author has some valid points.
Doc >>
The problem with his points is that they are computer genrated. For the stat guys in the house, I guess they would be valid. For those who trust what they see more than what the numbers say, his points don't hold much water.
I mean really, How can i view this argument as valid against Johnny U.: "He also had the benefit of spending his career surrounded by Hall of Famers (seven, in fact), including players destined for Canton at tackle, wide receiver, tight end and running back, and while playing for two Hall of Fame coaches (Weeb Ewbank and Don Shula)."
Yet the author ranks Bart Starr as the #1 QB in NFL history...Who played with more HOFers than anyone, not to mention a Coach who has the Super Bowl trophy named after him...lol
It's obvious he's never watched any of those players play pre 1980. Passer rating even TODAY does not tell the whole story of a great QB or not, not to mention how much less it meant in the 50's/60s/70s era..
For me, hard to take writers like this seriously, when all they did was purchase a Football Encyclopedia, peruse some stats and come up with some numbers based theories that contradict each other when comparing players.
Just my opinion of course, Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Of course I'm biased because I'm a Packer fan, but even I have trouble with Johnny U at #6??
I agree that stats NEVER tell the whole story however the one thing that I believe escapes most football fans today is that in the days of Starr and Johnny U, they called all their own plays. They were truly Field Generals in their day. I would like to see how a Tom Brady would do today completey running the show from the huddle.
As for Starr I've always felt that he was overlooked as a QB simply because he lived in the shadow of Lombardi. Even now he's rarely mentioned when people speak of the greatest QB's to ever play( I would certainly include him). That's why I was so surprised at this article(written in 2008 btw).
I always thought Bart Starr was in the top 10. He was also a great field general. jason's point about the pac having all those hofers as well as the greatest coach ever is very valid.
That team played AS A TEAM for one and only measure...to win championships above individual persuits. The fact that unitas played with as many hofers as he did doesn't take anythinjg away....it adds.
Great players will rise to the desire of thier field general or coaches. Wayne Gretzky is a great example in hockey.......He played with and brought out the best of many others who would also make the hof.
Overall the qbs on the list are valid. Maybe not in that exact order. Personally I replace Favre with Elway. Was he great...yes....but way to many boneheaded plays cloud his greatness. That last interception he threw with the Viks is an example.....Maybe he carried the team that far (who probably wouldn't have been there w/o him) but he single handedly ruined the season in one play.
On this list I can't take off another QB. Maybe Staubach and put in Bradshaw. But thats pushing it.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>I always thought Bart Starr was in the top 10. He was also a great field general. jason's point about the pac having all those hofers as well as the greatest coach ever is very valid.
That team played AS A TEAM for one and only measure...to win championships above individual persuits. The fact that unitas played with as many hofers as he did doesn't take anythinjg away....it adds.
Great players will rise to the desire of thier field general or coaches. Wayne Gretzky is a great example in hockey.......He played with and brought out the best of many others who would also make the hof.
Overall the qbs on the list are valid. Maybe not in that exact order. Personally I replace Favre with Elway. Was he great...yes....but way to many boneheaded plays cloud his greatness. That last interception he threw with the Viks is an example.....Maybe he carried the team that far (who probably wouldn't have been there w/o him) but he single handedly ruined the season in one play.
On this list I can't take off another QB. Maybe Staubach and put in Bradshaw. But thats pushing it. >>
Totally agree. I never liked that argument or point. That a guy is/was only great because of the players around them. I don;t think it is a knock against Starr OR Unitas...Just like Jerry Rice having Montana and Young as QBs shouldn't be a knock agaisnt Rice's greatness...
Just thought it funny that the writer of that article used it AGAINST Johnny U and his career and why he is ranked where he is, yet he ranked Bart Starr #1? Hypocritical IMO...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I love the Favre comment, totally agree, and don't forget he threw the exact same interception against the Giants in the NFC Champ. game to lose it for the Packers!
As for the Top 10 QB list, well we at least got the thread moving again!! It's been a bit slow.
A criteria of this paticular writer placed championships at the top of the list. To some point I agree. Thats's why I always had Montana in my top 3. When the single most important game was on the line he was always at his best. In this case then why isn't bradshaw higher (or even on this list)? He also playes with a ton of hofers. HOF coach.
On the other hand what if a QB (or any player for a point) doesn't win anything or play with marquis players? We can probably name a few guys whom most likely will not make the HOF and easily would have if they had been on a better more sucessfull team.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I would like to see the Football HOF as well as ALL professional sports HOF's include a random selection of former players in the process of inductions. Yes, the majority of sports writers are extremely focused on the sport but who knows more than an athlete, players true value than their competition.
<< <i>I would like to see the Football HOF as well as ALL professional sports HOF's include a random selection of former players in the process of inductions. Yes, the majority of sports writers are extremely focused on the sport but who knows more than an athlete, players true value than their competition. >>
The Senior Committee flies in a couple of HOFers every year to assist them in making their final decision on the the 2 Senior Candidates. I agree, I would like to see the committee expand to 100 voters. 50 writers/50 players. I think the reason they do not is that they use the HOF meeting in their final selection process. And have that many people in the room would extend the meeting beyond what is already a 6-8 hour meeting/debate.
Maybe they could at least work the players into the write in ballots, which is how they select the top 25 and then top 15.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
<< <i>As a Packer fan I'd love to see Kramer. Maybe with them winning the last SB he will get a push?? >>
I have contended B4 that it is an atrocity that Kramer and Karras have been overlooked for so long. I can create a mile long list of several "slobs" that have already been accepted that look weak next to these two studs of the '60's. Stanfel and Butler? Really???? HOF looking more and more like a joke IMO.
Kramer may never get the nod. Long overdue in my book.
I have not heard all that much about the play of Stanfel so I reserve any opinions.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Doc
<< <i>I don't know much about Butler and Stanfel and they may be household names in Detroit and Pittsburgh, but are they HOF worthy players? Any insights from you guys??
Doc >>
While I didn't see him play his list of accomplishments are pretty impressive:
5 All Pro selections & 5 Pro Bowls in his 7 year career
Member of the the NFL's All-Decade Team of the 1950s
3 X League Champion
Voted team MVP after the 1953 season
And here's a very good profile on Stanfel
He seems like a very strong candidate.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
February: Ollie Matson
April: Joe Perry
May: Andy Robustelli
June: John Henry Johnson
July: John Mackey
August: Pete Pihos
September: Lee Roy Selmon
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Doc
<< <i>What odds do you guys give to Butler and Stanfel getting elected to the HOF? Are the Senior candidates usually an automatic shoe-in?
Doc >>
Odds of neither getting in= 1%
Odds of at least 1 getting in=99%
Odds of both getting in= 75%
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>What odds do you guys give to Butler and Stanfel getting elected to the HOF? Are the Senior candidates usually an automatic shoe-in?
Doc
<< <i>
Odds of neither getting in= 1%
Odds of at least 1 getting in=98.3%
Odds of both getting in= 74.2%
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't know much about Butler and Stanfel and they may be household names in Detroit and Pittsburgh, but are they HOF worthy players? Any insights from you guys??
Doc >>
While I didn't see him play his list of accomplishments are pretty impressive:
5 All Pro selections & 5 Pro Bowls in his 7 year career
Member of the the NFL's All-Decade Team of the 1950s
2 X League Champion
Voted team MVP after the 1953 season
And here's a very good profile on Stanfel
He seems like a very strong candidate. >>
so does this...
3× Pro Bowl selection
5× First-Team All-Pro selection
(1960, 1962, 1963, 1966, 1967)
1× Second-Team All-Pro selection (1968)
5× NFL champion
(1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967)
2× Super Bowl champion (I, II)
NFL 1960s All-Decade Team
NFL 50th Anniversary Team
but this player cant make it in and played the same position. and was picked over dick for the 50th NFL team.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>
<< <i>What odds do you guys give to Butler and Stanfel getting elected to the HOF? Are the Senior candidates usually an automatic shoe-in?
Doc
<< <i>
Odds of neither getting in= 1%
Odds of at least 1 getting in=98.3%
Odds of both getting in= 74.2%
What accounts for the other 0.7%? The possibility of Armageddon between now and January?
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
I know he is not a HOFer yet, but he is as close to a lock as anyone else.
I just got this back from PSA. I thought it had a very good shot at a 10.
Not too bummed with a 9, but very surprized to see the pop on this once I logged it in
PSA 9 is a pop 8 with only 2 higher?
Really?
I paid $6 for a small lot of 97 SPA rookies and it cost me another $6 to get this one graded. You would think there would be at least 25-50 of these floating around.
The ultimate Packer collectible!
Doc
Great pics from that 30's era.
Doc
<< <i>I saw that on ebay also. I was born and raised in GB and I've never seen one in person either. Earlier this year Heritage Auctions had a complete set for sale and it was the first one I'd ever seen. If I remember correctly the reserve was $10k and it did not sell. Too rich for me!
Great pics from that 30's era.
Doc >>
$10 K seems darn cheap to me to have an impossible to find Lambeau and Blood alone all of the other HOF'ers.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't know much about Butler and Stanfel and they may be household names in Detroit and Pittsburgh, but are they HOF worthy players? Any insights from you guys??
Doc >>
While I didn't see him play his list of accomplishments are pretty impressive:
5 All Pro selections & 5 Pro Bowls in his 7 year career
Member of the the NFL's All-Decade Team of the 1950s
2 X League Champion
Voted team MVP after the 1953 season
And here's a very good profile on Stanfel
He seems like a very strong candidate. >>
so does this...
3× Pro Bowl selection
5× First-Team All-Pro selection
(1960, 1962, 1963, 1966, 1967)
1× Second-Team All-Pro selection (1968)
5× NFL champion
(1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967)
2× Super Bowl champion (I, II)
NFL 1960s All-Decade Team
NFL 50th Anniversary Team
but this player cant make it in and played the same position. and was picked over dick for the 50th NFL team. >>
Stanfel was either an All Pro or a Pro Bowler for 6 out of his 7 year career. His career was short but he was the best at his position for nearly every year he played. IMO that makes him the stronger candidate.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
That Blood is on my want list also but thats alot of $$. I have his matchbook that will have to hold me over for now.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Driver is at 703 catches and 9,666 yards.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>so what are the stats required for the all time wr set??
Driver is at 703 catches and 9,666 yards. >>
I think typically they look for 12k yards or for a HOF lock.
<< <i>
<< <i>so what are the stats required for the all time wr set??
Driver is at 703 catches and 9,666 yards. >>
I think typically they look for 12k yards or for a HOF lock. >>
Tim Brown- 14,934
Cris Carter- 13,899
Henry Ellard 13,777
Andre Reed- 13,198
Irving Fryar- 12,785
Jimmy Smith- 12,287
All above have been passed over for the HOF...Meaning none were locks. I guess its 15K for a LOCK until Isaac Bruce gets passed over (and he will not be a first ballot HOFer)
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>so what are the stats required for the all time wr set??
Driver is at 703 catches and 9,666 yards. >>
I think typically they look for 12k yards or for a HOF lock. >>
Tim Brown- 14,934
Cris Carter- 13,899
Henry Ellard 13,777
Andre Reed- 13,198
Irving Fryar- 12,785
Jimmy Smith- 12,287
All above have been passed over for the HOF...Meaning none were locks. I guess its 15K for a LOCK until Isaac Bruce gets passed over (and he will not be a first ballot HOFer)
Jason >>
I was not saying 12k gets you in the HOF. I said it gets you in the set, just like being a HOF lock does.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
VCP can be used as a guide and/or starting point. But those who know me well are aware that I've probably gone through anywhere between 2 and 5 cards of every player on my HOF set in order to collect the best looking examples I could find. So many of the cards cost me (and hence will be sold) for more than the VCP average.
My HOF RC Set
Send me a PM or e-mail at jabeduco@yahoo.com if I have anything you want or need.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>For anyone interested, will be selling off a few from my collection as I consolidate and reorganize. Not everything is for sale, but don't be afraid to ask. Also check out my future HOF sets and Team sets as well if you are looking for any of those.
VCP can be used as a guide and/or starting point. But those who know me well are aware that I've probably gone through anywhere between 2 and 5 cards of every player on my HOF set in order to collect the best looking examples I could find. So many of the cards cost me (and hence will be sold) for more than the VCP average.
My HOF RC Set
Send me a PM or e-mail at jabeduco@yahoo.com if I have anything you want or need.
Jason >>
pm sent.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Woodson is one INT return for a TD away from the all time record. Two away from owning it all together. >>
He reached 50 INTs, added to the All-Time NFL Interception Leaders set.
I picked up a couple of future HORers for some good prices.
Marvin Harrison PSA 9 $7.50 delivered
Richard Dent PSA 8 - Really nice 8 that I am going to resub $11 delivered
Otis Taylor PSA 7.5 $20 delivered
HOF
Mel Renfro PSA 7 $31 delivered
And I got a cool Pre Rookie too
1961 Land O Lakes Herb Adderley PSA 7 for only $18
An online exhibit titled, "The Dutch Sternaman Collection" launched today on Profootballhof.com. The online exhibit focuses on the recent donation of a comprehensive collection of original documents from the early years of the NFL and the Chicago Bears.
It represents the most complete collection of its type in the Hall of Fame's archives including original documents pertaining to one of the NFL's most important historical events, the signing of Harold "Red" Grange in 1925 and his ensuing cross-country barnstorming tour with the Bears.
Sternaman collection
<< <i>No update for 2.5 weeks. Ouch.
I picked up a couple of future HORers for some good prices.
Marvin Harrison PSA 9 $7.50 delivered
Richard Dent PSA 8 - Really nice 8 that I am going to resub $11 delivered
Otis Taylor PSA 7.5 $20 delivered
HOF
Mel Renfro PSA 7 $31 delivered
And I got a cool Pre Rookie too
1961 Land O Lakes Herb Adderley PSA 7 for only $18 >>
great deals especially on the Renfro!
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2103_The_definitive_list:_Top_10_NFL_quarterbacks.html
Doc
<< <i>Haven't had any good debates lately, check out this list of Top 10 QB's of all time. I'm sure this will stir up some comments:
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2103_The_definitive_list:_Top_10_NFL_quarterbacks.html
Doc >>
I stopped reading when I saw Johnny U. at #6...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>Haven't had any good debates lately, check out this list of Top 10 QB's of all time. I'm sure this will stir up some comments:
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2103_The_definitive_list:_Top_10_NFL_quarterbacks.html
Doc >>
I stopped reading when I saw Johnny U. at #6... >>
if that is the case I am not even clicking it.
Doc
<< <i>We all know we'll never agree on ANY top ten list of players, but you at least have to admit the author has some valid points.
Doc >>
The problem with his points is that they are computer genrated. For the stat guys in the house, I guess they would be valid. For those who trust what they see more than what the numbers say, his points don't hold much water.
I mean really, How can i view this argument as valid against Johnny U.: "He also had the benefit of spending his career surrounded by Hall of Famers (seven, in fact), including players destined for Canton at tackle, wide receiver, tight end and running back, and while playing for two Hall of Fame coaches (Weeb Ewbank and Don Shula)."
Yet the author ranks Bart Starr as the #1 QB in NFL history...Who played with more HOFers than anyone, not to mention a Coach who has the Super Bowl trophy named after him...lol
It's obvious he's never watched any of those players play pre 1980. Passer rating even TODAY does not tell the whole story of a great QB or not, not to mention how much less it meant in the 50's/60s/70s era..
For me, hard to take writers like this seriously, when all they did was purchase a Football Encyclopedia, peruse some stats and come up with some numbers based theories that contradict each other when comparing players.
Just my opinion of course,
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree that stats NEVER tell the whole story however the one thing that I believe escapes most football fans today is that in the days of Starr and Johnny U, they called all their own plays. They were truly Field Generals in their day. I would like to see how a Tom Brady would do today completey running the show from the huddle.
As for Starr I've always felt that he was overlooked as a QB simply because he lived in the shadow of Lombardi. Even now he's rarely mentioned when people speak of the greatest QB's to ever play( I would certainly include him). That's why I was so surprised at this article(written in 2008 btw).
Doc
That team played AS A TEAM for one and only measure...to win championships above individual persuits. The fact that unitas played with as many hofers as he did doesn't take anythinjg away....it adds.
Great players will rise to the desire of thier field general or coaches. Wayne Gretzky is a great example in hockey.......He played with and brought out the best of many others who would also make the hof.
Overall the qbs on the list are valid. Maybe not in that exact order. Personally I replace Favre with Elway. Was he great...yes....but way to many boneheaded plays cloud his greatness. That last interception he threw with the Viks is an example.....Maybe he carried the team that far (who probably wouldn't have been there w/o him) but he single handedly ruined the season in one play.
On this list I can't take off another QB. Maybe Staubach and put in Bradshaw. But thats pushing it.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>I always thought Bart Starr was in the top 10. He was also a great field general. jason's point about the pac having all those hofers as well as the greatest coach ever is very valid.
That team played AS A TEAM for one and only measure...to win championships above individual persuits. The fact that unitas played with as many hofers as he did doesn't take anythinjg away....it adds.
Great players will rise to the desire of thier field general or coaches. Wayne Gretzky is a great example in hockey.......He played with and brought out the best of many others who would also make the hof.
Overall the qbs on the list are valid. Maybe not in that exact order. Personally I replace Favre with Elway. Was he great...yes....but way to many boneheaded plays cloud his greatness. That last interception he threw with the Viks is an example.....Maybe he carried the team that far (who probably wouldn't have been there w/o him) but he single handedly ruined the season in one play.
On this list I can't take off another QB. Maybe Staubach and put in Bradshaw. But thats pushing it. >>
Totally agree. I never liked that argument or point. That a guy is/was only great because of the players around them. I don;t think it is a knock against Starr OR Unitas...Just like Jerry Rice having Montana and Young as QBs shouldn't be a knock agaisnt Rice's greatness...
Just thought it funny that the writer of that article used it AGAINST Johnny U and his career and why he is ranked where he is, yet he ranked Bart Starr #1? Hypocritical IMO...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As for the Top 10 QB list, well we at least got the thread moving again!! It's been a bit slow.
Doc
A criteria of this paticular writer placed championships at the top of the list. To some point I agree. Thats's why I always had Montana in my top 3. When the single most important game was on the line he was always at his best. In this case then why isn't bradshaw higher (or even on this list)? He also playes with a ton of hofers. HOF coach.
On the other hand what if a QB (or any player for a point) doesn't win anything or play with marquis players? We can probably name a few guys whom most likely will not make the HOF and easily would have if they had been on a better more sucessfull team.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I've grabbed a couple of your ebay auctions...appreciate the cards and will continue to monitor.
<< <i>I would like to see the Football HOF as well as ALL professional sports HOF's include a random selection of former players in the process of inductions. Yes, the majority of sports writers are extremely focused on the sport but who knows more than an athlete, players true value than their competition. >>
The Senior Committee flies in a couple of HOFers every year to assist them in making their final decision on the the 2 Senior Candidates. I agree, I would like to see the committee expand to 100 voters. 50 writers/50 players. I think the reason they do not is that they use the HOF meeting in their final selection process. And have that many people in the room would extend the meeting beyond what is already a 6-8 hour meeting/debate.
Maybe they could at least work the players into the write in ballots, which is how they select the top 25 and then top 15.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.