<< <i>Congrats on the clarke hinkle Jason, nice buy! >>
I almost crapped my pants when it ended at $820. I've been trying to pull one for $1400 for years now...My snipe was $1500, so to get it almost half is awesome..It's not centered all that great, but I can deal with that for $820...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>OK, here's the breakdown for Andrews, Sims and T.D.
William Andrews (19) Billy Sims (18) Terrell Davis (63)
T.D.s ranking puts him above Eric Dickerson and Marcus Allen and tied with Franco Harris...And he did it in just 7 seasons...He should get into the HOF IMO...He was the #1 player in the game from 1996-1998. MVP, 2 time Offensive Player of the Year, Super Bowl MVP, 3 times 1st team All-Pro...
Joe, I can't give away all my secrets..lolol
Jason >>
Thanks for the effort on the researching.
I figured Terrell Davis would rank high, but his 63 points are off the charts for his short career. His playoff stats are almost the best of any running back. I think he'll make the Hall eventually too. Great player who seems to be overlooked already even though he just retired a few seasons ago.
It makes sense that Gifford ranks so high with all his Championship appearances. It did hurt McElhenny to have to share the load with Perry and John Henry Johnson for a lot of years. Not having any Championships hurts Matson and 'The King' too.
It's too bad the formula couldn't be tweaked to allow some other all-purpose stats into the mix. Matson had quite a few TD's on kickoff returns. It would pump up Sayers numbers too. But I guess returning punts and kickoffs aren't truly 'running back' duties either. Still it add's value to the players numbers and rep.
I've always felt that stat's in Football should reflect per game averages and not just totals. Like OJ's 2003 yard rushing season. He did that in 14 games. He averaged 143 yards per game. That's never been topped as far as I know. Sure a few other great backs have also topped 2000 yards and have rushed for 'more yards' but they all did it in a 16 game season, and averaged less per game than the Juice.
Glad you won a card Jason. I had snipes set on the 65 Eller PSA 9, 70 Page PSA 10 and 62 Tarkenton PSA 8 and got spanked on all of them. In fact, my snipe didn't even go off on the Tarkenton. I guess if you pitch it as a PSA 9 candidate, you get an extra $325 for it.
I was REALLY surprised that the Page went for $785. And even more disappointed the Eller went for <$400. I decided not to make a stronger run at that one because I wanted the Page or the Tarkenton more. Now I wish I had placed a bigger bid on that PSA 10 Cortez Kennedy and the Eller. Dammit dammit dammit.
I think particularly with the RB's, it needs to be tweaked. I pretty much used the same criteria as I did for the WR's, and while I think the RB rankings are close, I don't think they are dead on. I'll see what I can work out. Not sure what the availability is of kick and punt return stats. I was already batting around the idea of dividing the player rankings by the number of seasons played, which would show dominance more accurately. Only problem is you would be penalizing players who had long careers, and we all know the HOF does not do that. My goal with these rankings was to try and rate who is most and least HOF worthy players. So I tried to incorporate everything that the HOF voters use to decide worthiness. Maybe I need to subtract points for off the field issues??lol
Josh,
Something I learned a long time ago, if its on ebay and I want/need it bid accordingly. Holding off for budget or to focus on another cards usually ends just like your night did...lol...For me, I bid my high on everything..Sometimes i still lose out on all of it, other times i win more than I thought..It pretty much evens out.
Dave,
I just picked up a PSA 7 Shaw LAST NIGHT, otherwise I would be in the market as i was still looking to replace my PSA 8 that I sold. As it stands right now, I am still 2 cards short from getting back to 100%. I need:
1948 Bowman Pihos PSA 6 or higher 1951 Bowman Lou Creekmur PSA 7 or higher
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
envoy- I was fortunate in that I won the Eller. I too was bidding on the Page PSA 10 and thought it went a bit high. Ironically the only card I won on Ebay last night was the Eller and believe me, my snipe was set at quite a bit higher. I also had snipes set for Csonka PSA 9 and was surprised at where that closed. I agree with Jason. When you need a card, bidding within a budget rarely works. You have to bid to win. I would have bid stronger on the Page and Csonka, but already had some bids in at the ML auction and didn't want to overextend myself. Turns out 6/7 of my bids won in the ML auction
Seemed the Eller was sitting really cheap for a long time, so I was hopeful everyone who needed it, already had it. With the Page closing only a few minutes later I didn't want to bid $500 or so on the Eller and then $500+ on the Page as I really don't have $1k laying around to buy those two cards at the same time. I try not to "bid on a budget" but rather "buy on a budget". It was unfortunate for me that all three cards were ending the same day and so close together. The sellers did exceptionally well with the Tark and Page, the Eller guy...not so much. Bummed to see it go that low, but I will take solace in knowing your snipe was set quite a bit higher.
The Page guy way overpaid but again, if the buyer is happy with it... I'll sit back and hope another one comes along a little cheaper. If not, I'll be content with my rock-star 9 I have.
I am bitter about the Cortez Kennedy now though. lol
Jason, I thought you won the PSA 8 Creekmur a few weeks back?
I won a 1951 Tunnell PSA 8...There was a Creekmur 8 on, but I didn't win it.
The Eller wasn't much cheaper than the norm..They typically sold in the $425ish range last year..I had a feeling it might break $500 though in the current market..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Guys, I hate to put a damper on your latest HOF wins.
Whenever I see a large quantity of high grade 9's or 10's on ebay, I do a cert. verification look up. I check to see what other cards are/were graded in the same sequence of the psa serial numbers. Usually they are from the same submitter.
So while I'm not accusing the seller, who just had a lot of very high Football and baseball cards ending on ebay last night, of doing anything funny to them.........
please check the certs yourself from :
04601767 to 04601902 . You'll see some pretty amazing results.
envoy- I apologize if I came off as high-handed. I really just meant that if you want a card that's in demand, you have to bid strong to get it. You are right though. I felt that the Page went higher than it should have. Jason mentiones that the Eller goes for around $425. I think the last one went for $511 and I was the under bidder. Makes me happy that I got this one.
cardbender- I'm not sure what you are alluding too, but when you post " So while I'm not accusing the seller, who just had a lot of very high Football and baseball cards ending on ebay last night, of doing anything funny to them......... ", that's EXACTLY what you are doing. You are accusing someone of doing something you feel is illicit, but don't have actual proof. If you feel the seller has done something wrong, post the evidence.
<< <i>Guys, I hate to put a damper on your latest HOF wins.
Whenever I see a large quantity of high grade 9's or 10's on ebay, I do a cert. verification look up. I check to see what other cards are/were graded in the same sequence of the psa serial numbers. Usually they are from the same submitter.
So while I'm not accusing the seller, who just had a lot of very high Football and baseball cards ending on ebay last night, of doing anything funny to them.........
please check the certs yourself from :
04601767 to 04601902 . You'll see some pretty amazing results.
They all look to be recently graded too.
This isn't a happy post. >>
These are recently graded. While I can't and won't try to prove anyone's guilt or innocence, I can tell you based on experience that PSA has been VERY liberal in their use of the "altered, trimmed" designation on cards. Especially when it comes to subs with high end cards. While I think they have good intentions by making any questionable calls automatic "trimmed/altered" I think what it has done, is it has turned it into the "Boy Who Cried Wolf". I have sent many cards in to PSA over the past year. Many coming back very highly graded 1/1's, etc. And of these, I don't think I've had ONE order of more than 20 cards come back without SOMETHING "trimmed/altered"..And I am talking cards I pulled directly from packs or that came out of PSA cases.
Every single "trimmed/altered" I've got on a card that either came out of a PSA holder or I opened directly from a pack was re-sent to PSA and every single time came back graded a 2nd time.
Basically what I am saying is, when PSA sees a large order with a bunch of high quality cards, they become very cautious. Maybe overly cautious. And any card that gives them a 1% possibility of having an issue, they slap the "trimmed/altered" on it. Obviously, the card is probably going to come back to them for another $13+ grading fee, so whats the harm? Better to have that then to grade a high end card that IS actually trimmed or altered.
Just giving another side to the story, as this has happened to me.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason - $40-75 bucks off the normal sale price from last year, seems like a good deal to me, especially the way many of the other HOF rc's have been going lately. The last couple Page 10's I remember seeing were in the $450-485 range, so $785 just seems outlandish to me. My 9 is very nice though, so I'll stick with that for a while.
Cardbender- That is rather amazing to see. I always try to have the benefit of the doubt and "hope" my higher grade vintage stuff isn't altered. I wouldn't be surprised to hear or see that a lot of the high grade vintage has been altered in some way, but I really hope it's a much lower percentage than many would think. I don't have a lot of money tied up in it and there is still a lot of unopened stuff so it is possible some stuff comes out that's really nice. <shrug> Not sure what to make of it. I have spent enough time at the big shows, on both sides of the table, to know what goes on and how sophisticated some of these guys get. If there is money to be made, someone will try and make it.
<< <i>Jason - $40-75 bucks off the normal sale price from last year, seems like a good deal to me, especially the way many of the other HOF rc's have been going lately. The last couple Page 10's I remember seeing were in the $450-485 range, so $785 just seems outlandish to me. My 9 is very nice though, so I'll stick with that for a while. >>
My $425 was the average from the past year and a half on Eller 9's...I guess the the $274.05 I paid in 2005 was a bargain...lol..I know a couple of others that paid even less ($200-ish) just prior to his HOF induction. Frank is a Philly guy, so he might have more pre-HOF info on the Eller card. I never tracked it until he got inducted...
The Page 10 was actually selling MUCH higher last year..I'm guessing the POPs were lower? In 2006, I tracked it selling for $1224, $1125, $922, and $721...If it were a card I really wanted or needed, I could see paying $800 for it with no problem. I've never seen at under $600..If it were, I would own it..I could have missed one but I don't see anyway the Page 10 sells for under $500 under any circumstance short of the POP exceeding 20+...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I don't think I've had ONE order of more than 20 cards come back without SOMETHING "trimmed/altered"..And I am talking cards I pulled directly from packs or that came out of PSA cases.
Jason- I've had the same issue. For example, I'm doing the 1993 Upper Deck Rookie Exchange Football set. This set was a 7 card sealed mail-away set from Upper Deck. I would guess that 25% of the submissions for this set were from me. The problem is that the majority of the cards from this set were cut a tad short. I've had dozens of these cards come back "evidence of trimming". That's were I feel the problem lies. If PSA is expert enough to identify a trimmed card, they should be able to differentiate trimmed "from short". When they get a card that is slightly oversized (2000 SP Authentic football) they slab them with the baggy insert. Why can't the slightly smaller (yet un-trimmed) cards be slabbed the same way??
Which brings us back to Cardbenders earlier post. A seller with 100% positive feedback on Ebay over 8 years is now under the shadow of doubt. If we have faith in PSA's ability to grade and find the trimmed cards, there's no need to cast doubt on anyone.
Guys, many of you know me, some of you don't. I've been around the hobby a long time. I've been buying and selling vintage cards for 20 years now. I've been a collector for over 30 years. I've attended 10 Nationals and set up at only one. I know many of the major dealers in the country. I also know who some of the crooks are in this fine hobby. So when I make a post about something like this, I don't do it lightly or without evidence.
Frank, we've done some deals in the past. I'm not hiding my name behind a message board id. Maybe you recognize my name.
While I didn't actually accuse the seller of these cards as being the one that might have trimmed or altered many of the cards in this spread of numbers. I did imply it and I'll let the evidence between the cert. numbers tell their story. This is unrefutable.
I would suggest that all of you reading this post, take about 30 minutes and review the cert number spread from 04601767 to 04601902. It's very suspicious in my opinion. The seller from ebay of these cards has a lot of feedbacks (over 1500) and doesn't have a negative. So his rep. as a seller is fine and actually very outstanding. It still doesn't mean he or someone he's selling these cards for, isn't doing something shady.
Trust me I didn't like discovering this evidence myself last night. I'm a big supporter of PSA. I have over 3000 vintage cards in PSA slabs in my collection. So yeah, I have a lot of money at stake in this as well. I also have about 125 SGC slabs in my collection for full disclosure.
I do think PSA does a pretty solid job at screening out the trimmed cards too. Sometimes they miss however, as Jason pointed out in his post. No company is perfect and I believe they (PSA or any grading company) should error on the the side of caution when grading big ticket cards in high grade. We've all heard of stories of pulling cards from packs, cello's, or vending that PSA deemed to be 'trimmed' and later they graded and got slabbed up. Erros in judgement do occur occasionaly.
Still, when I see a run of 200 cards in a row and about 30-40 of them have 'evidence of trimming' or 'recolored' or 'altered' in the mix, I don't feel right about the other cards in this run either.
I've spoken to Joe Orlando about this exact subject at a Chicago Sun-Times show two years ago. I had paper print outs of cert. number runs of similar activity with me as hard evidence. He told me that PSA looks at each card individually on it's own merits and grades them accordingly, regardless of other cards in the same batch that might be trimmed. I guess I would agree that this is the proper way to do things. However it still doesn't sit right with me deep down inside. If I were a grader, I would reject the entire order if too high a percentage of them came back as trimmed/altered. But that's me and I don't work at PSA.
Jason, I've submitted over 10,000 vintage card of my own to PSA in the past 7 years. Many from vending. Some not. Of those I've had only 15 cards that came back as trimmed so far. So that's one in what roughly 700 cards. I'm not bragging about this fact, just pointing out that I know how to screen cards.
I'm thinking the submitter of these questionable cards from this cert. run knew exactly what he's was doing to. Like I said, it might not be seller who's the guilty one here. He might have listed these cards for someone else on consignment. But he's now linked to this by merely being the seller of the these cards on ebay.
I really hope this thread doesn't get pulled or disappear. Maybe this is the wrong thread to post this in, however I felt that since all of us posting here are collectors of Football Rookie cards, that this was the proper place for it.
If you don't agree with me, or dislike me me for sharing an opinion on this matter, no problem. Flame away, I can take it.
Jason- I've had the same issue. For example, I'm doing the 1993 Upper Deck Rookie Exchange Football set. This set was a 7 card sealed mail-away set from Upper Deck. I would guess that 25% of the submissions for this set were from me. The problem is that the majority of the cards from this set were cut a tad short. I've had dozens of these cards come back "evidence of trimming". That's were I feel the problem lies. If PSA is expert enough to identify a trimmed card, they should be able to differentiate trimmed "from short". When they get a card that is slightly oversized (2000 SP Authentic football) they slab them with the baggy insert. Why can't the slightly smaller (yet un-trimmed) cards be slabbed the same way??
Which brings us back to Cardbenders earlier post. A seller with 100% positive feedback on Ebay over 8 years is now under the shadow of doubt. If we have faith in PSA's ability to grade and find the trimmed cards, there's no need to cast doubt on anyone. >>
BINGO....This post says it all...
Thanks Frank! Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>If you don't agree with me, or dislike me me for sharing an opinion on this matter, no problem. Flame away, I can take it. >>
Cardbender,
I know you are only looking out for our best interests, and the best interests of the hobby in general. I also know that there are very shady things that go on in this hobby that people choose to turn a blind eye to. Whether or not we all want to admit it, trimmed cards do manage to find their way into the holders of all the major grading companies (most notably GAI), but unfortunately PSA and SGC on occasion too. As noted earlier in this thread, nobody's perfect. I respect your opinions and the fact that you put your neck on the line to try to open some eyes. Rock on brother.
Shag
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Rich, I'm not doubting your screening prowess...But how many of those 10,000 were commons?
I've never submitted a common in my life..I will be doing so for the first time in the very near future with a bunch of 1984 Topps, so I'll let you know how it turns out...What I initially stated, was if you look at the cert # run, how many of those cards are commons? It's very similar to something i would submit. I screen very carefully as well...I am typically sending in high end, PSA 10 quality cards, 99% of the time rookie cards.
Here are some that I have had graded by PSA in the past year or so:
PSA 7 1935 Chicle Cliff Battles PSA 7 1948 Leaf Doak Walker PSA 7 1948 Leaf Bob Waterfield PSA 8 1951 Bowman Arnie Weinmeister PSA 8 1952 Bowman Small Joe Stydahar PSA 10 1961 Fleer Jim Otto--First 10 ever graded PSA 10 1961 Fleer Don Maynard PSA 9 1970 Topps Jan Stenerud PSA 10 1970 Topps Elvin Bethea --First one ever graded PSA 10 1970 Topps Elvin Bethea --Second one ever graded PSA 10 1970 Topps Lem Barney PSA 9 1972 Topps Larry Little PSA 10 1973 Topps Jack Ham --Second one ever graded PSA 10 1974 Topps Joe DeLamielleure --First one ever graded PSA 10 1984 Topps USFL Reggie White PSA 10 1984 Topps USFL Jim Kelly
I could go on, those are just off the top of my head...My point is, that when you send batches of cards that do NOT contain commons, but all high value cards, PSA looks ALOT harder at the trimmed/altered possibilities...
Instead of perusing cert #s, try looking at entire submissions. If you don't know how to browse them, PM me and i will send you a link so you don't need zip codes..You will see that 99.9% of orders larger than 20 cards will have at LEAST one altered/trimmed...If you find subs like I would send in, or that this seller obviously sent in, the percentages are much higher...I've seen subs where more than 50% of the cards come back trimmed/altered...If that were the case, I might be a little more suspicious...But looking over the cert#s, its not quite that bad..
Anything is possible, but if PSA says it's a 9, you can either take their word and buy, or don;t take their word and not buy..Simple as that..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hi Jason, Originally when I started grading cards with PSA in 1996 I was sending in all my vintage Baseball stars. I did this slowly and steadily over a five year period of time. So many of my slabs were of the earlier sort and were probably graded by Mike Baker who was then the head of PSA grading.
I had near complete runs and some complete runs of : Aaron, Mays, Clemente, Banks, F. Robinson, Brock, Mathews, Spahn, Stargell, and a few Ted Williams and Musials among others. Plus many other stars too. I also sent in some key Football stars. I would say I've graded well over 3000 HOF'er from pre 1972.
Of those I had approximately five cards that came back trimmed. These were purchased by me from a well known seller in Michigan. A few years after I bought them and they came back trimmed, I approached this seller and they were good enough to buy them back from me when I told them they wouldn't grade.
So yeah, currently I do grade many lower priced cards and commons for my sets and to resell. In the past I have graded many big priced star cards over the years.
I understand about the mini size cards too. Many cards direct from vending are cut that way. Also the '93 UD Football rookie exchange set that was aluded to is the same animal. Cut smaller from the factory. I get that point.
I do also realize that PSA does indeed screen the higher price cards maybe with a little more vigilance than say a $3 common. That goes without saying.
My point of bringing up the cert. run of this seller was that most of the cards were decent priced stars and not commons. There were some Baseball mixed in as well. Even some '86 Fleer Basketball. High powered stuff when given the 10 or 9 grade.
I mean, I guess I could gather up all the certs. and post them here if everyone wanted to see what were talking about but then I'm sure this thread would go poof and I would be banned from posting. That still might happen.
I agree, the bottom line should be if you feel comfortable buying the card, then buy it. Trust me, I think having PSA around is a good thing. And I know they do as good job as possible trying to detect the funny cards.
I really just have a problem over the quantity of the cards being trimmed from this particular cert. run. It seemed unusually high to me.
Frank, we've done some deals in the past. I'm not hiding my name behind a message board id. Maybe you recognize my name.
Cardbender- your id does seem familiar now, but I can't peg what deals we've done from memory at the moment.
I guess the difference is in how you look at the submissions. You seem to feel that if a submission has a certain amount of cards deemed trimmed/altered, that it casts a pall on the rest of the order. Jason (and myself) feel that it shows that PSA did it's job and caught the questionable cards.
Regardless of how we view the issue, the bottom line is that PSA did it's job.
If I would have one critique about PSA's handling of trimmed or colored cards, I would like to see them point out the alteration on the cardsaver when they return the card.
<< <i>Rich, I'm not doubting your screening prowess...But how many of those 10,000 were commons?
I've never submitted a common in my life..I will be doing so for the first time in the very near future with a bunch of 1984 Topps, so I'll let you know how it turns out...What I initially stated, was if you look at the cert # run, how many of those cards are commons? It's very similar to something i would submit. I screen very carefully as well...I am typically sending in high end, PSA 10 quality cards, 99% of the time rookie cards.
Here are some that I have had graded by PSA in the past year or so:
PSA 7 1935 Chicle Cliff Battles PSA 7 1948 Leaf Doak Walker PSA 7 1948 Leaf Bob Waterfield PSA 8 1951 Bowman Arnie Weinmeister PSA 8 1952 Bowman Small Joe Stydahar PSA 10 1961 Fleer Jim Otto--First 10 ever graded PSA 10 1961 Fleer Don Maynard PSA 9 1970 Topps Jan Stenerud PSA 10 1970 Topps Elvin Bethea --First one ever graded PSA 10 1970 Topps Elvin Bethea --Second one ever graded PSA 10 1970 Topps Lem Barney PSA 9 1972 Topps Larry Little PSA 10 1973 Topps Jack Ham --Second one ever graded PSA 10 1974 Topps Joe DeLamielleure --First one ever graded PSA 10 1984 Topps USFL Reggie White PSA 10 1984 Topps USFL Jim Kelly
I could go on, those are just off the top of my head...My point is, that when you send batches of cards that do NOT contain commons, but all high value cards, PSA looks ALOT harder at the trimmed/altered possibilities...
Instead of perusing cert #s, try looking at entire submissions. If you don't know how to browse them, PM me and i will send you a link so you don't need zip codes..You will see that 99.9% of orders larger than 20 cards will have at LEAST one altered/trimmed...If you find subs like I would send in, or that this seller obviously sent in, the percentages are much higher...I've seen subs where more than 50% of the cards come back trimmed/altered...If that were the case, I might be a little more suspicious...But looking over the cert#s, its not quite that bad..
Anything is possible, but if PSA says it's a 9, you can either take their word and buy, or don;t take their word and not buy..Simple as that..
Jason, those are some tremendous cards you've graded. Congrats!
<< <i>This makes me sad Anyone want to divulge what they paid for them? >>
It's too bad these auctions arn't able to run their course. Ebay makes it too easy for this stuff to happen...
Dave >>
I agree...After seeing WAY too many cards that I was after "end early", I now e-mail to see if the seller is willing to sell outright. If not, great and I let them know I look forward to bidding..If they say they are, then it means they probably will, especially if it is a card alot of collector's are after. Only makes sense to try and "win" the card via offline offer at that point...Otherwise, I'm left feeling "sad" like bcd33...lol
In most cases, I think I pay/spend more when buying offline or with a BIN than I do on an auction that runs its course...Just the nature of the game these days..
This is one of the good things about 4SC, they won't end auctions early.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I would say so...The borders don't measure correctly, even giving the benefit of the doubt because of the tilt...Its also possible the scanner is just playing tricks, but me personally..I wouldn't risk $.50 on this one to find out..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I just picked up this one for $100. I think I overpayed slightly, but I like em centered. I'll be happy if it grades a 5. Top right corner may give me some problems
<< <i>Ive seen alot more cards lately ending early. Its kind of frustrating, but I guess its becoming part of the eternal quest for that one card. >>
Basically, if you can't beat em, join em. If a card is listed that you really want, you should contact the seller ASAP just to see if he's interested in selling outright. You don't even have to give an amount in the initial e-mail, so as not to show your hand, so to speak. Just state your interest. It's the best way to make sure that a seller will allow you to make or top an offer before ending an auction, if he's open to doing that. Of course it doesn't always work out that way, but if there's a card you just have to have, make SURE the seller knows you're interested. That's really the best advice I can give you.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I just picked up this one for $100. I think I overpayed slightly, but I like em centered. I'll be happy if it grades a 5. Top right corner may give me some problems
>>
My 6 cost me $120-ish. If that gets into a 6 holder, you've got a nicely centered copy for a little bit less than the going rate. Nice pickup I'd say.
<< <i>Is $1200 the norm for a PSA 8 55 Don Hutson? One just ended on Ebay last night for $1200.
Jason, I saw a 1951 PSA 8 Lou Creekmur. I know you need it so here is a link 1951 PSA 8 Lou Creekmur >>
Geee, thanks for broadcasting...lolol
My snipe is already set as of about 5 minutes after the auction was listed..Probably won't be high enough though..I lost the last one as well...I'll get one sooner or later...
Hutson 8's usually sell in the $600-$750 range...$1200 is the highest I've ever tracked..One other sold for $900 plus in 2005...It's always a popular card..Top player for a top team..
A PSA 9 sold for $2299 last year...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I've got my nice centered 6 as well. Not to mention a mostly empty checkbook. You're safe from me. Besides, I'd try and fill out a lot of other needs before I'd drop that kind of coin on a high grade one. Good luck! It is a nice looking 8.
You guys arn't going to believe this but, remember the raw Hickerson I bought on ebay for 8 bucks? I was actually expecting a 6 or 7 ST. It had an ugly stain on his right shoulder. I didn't think the corners were that great either. I just sent it in because I had a voucher laying here and wanted to fill the void.
Here it was raw.
And the results are in..........................
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE 1 31787643 1966 PHILADELPHIA 45 GENE HICKERSON N/A 8
Wow. No offense Dave, but that 8 aint a looker. Did you slip a $100 bill in with the sub? Just kidding The last Hickerson 8 that I saw on eBay went for $380.66 on 3/18. Not sure if any have sold since then.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Going price is $350-$400..I sold one within the past couple of months in this range as well...
Congrats Dave..Gotta love it when you score a card like that!!!
Lots of HOF collectors still need it, you should have no problem moving it if that's what you want to do...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Wow. No offense Dave, but that 8 aint a looker. Did you slip a $100 bill in with the sub? Just kidding The last Hickerson 8 that I saw on eBay went for $380.66 on 3/18. Not sure if any have sold since then. >>
$380!!! I bought my PSA 8 the day he was announced as a senior finalist for $27 dlvd. Not a bad deal!!
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i>Wow. No offense Dave, but that 8 aint a looker. Did you slip a $100 bill in with the sub? Just kidding The last Hickerson 8 that I saw on eBay went for $380.66 on 3/18. Not sure if any have sold since then. >>
$380!!! I bought my PSA 8 the day he was announced as a senior finalist for $27 dlvd. Not a bad deal!!
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I got my first PSA 8 Hickerson the day before he was "officially" announced as a senior finalist for $16.95 from Mickey's Sportscards..lol..Same with the Charlie Sanders PSA 8, $20 from 4SC on ebay...Definitely helps save money to be paying attention just as Greg and I did..Hopefully I will get the early word again this year and have the cards before the public announcement is made..lol
Well, that is if I don't already have them!
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Sounds like a great idea..Even better than my "Franchise Player" set I've been kicking around...The main idea behind that was being a "fluid" set. I think a set like future HOFers could be just the same...Because once a player MAKES the HOF, he would come off the set, and new stars like Tom Brady and LT would reach the level of being added...Question is, are there enough Senior guys we think are serious HOF candidates to warrant a separate set?
Once we figure out the guys we want, I can put together the spreadsheet IAW how Cosetta usually wants them to include weighting...
Mike, do you want to post some lists of names to start the voting? We had quite a few modern and senior candidates listed earlier in this thread.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
<< <i>Congrats on the clarke hinkle Jason, nice buy! >>
I almost crapped my pants when it ended at $820. I've been trying to pull one for $1400 for years now...My snipe was $1500, so to get it almost half is awesome..It's not centered all that great, but I can deal with that for $820...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>OK, here's the breakdown for Andrews, Sims and T.D.
William Andrews (19)
Billy Sims (18)
Terrell Davis (63)
T.D.s ranking puts him above Eric Dickerson and Marcus Allen and tied with Franco Harris...And he did it in just 7 seasons...He should get into the HOF IMO...He was the #1 player in the game from 1996-1998. MVP, 2 time Offensive Player of the Year, Super Bowl MVP, 3 times 1st team All-Pro...
Joe, I can't give away all my secrets..lolol
Jason >>
Thanks for the effort on the researching.
I figured Terrell Davis would rank high, but his 63 points are off the charts for his short career. His playoff stats are almost the best of any running back. I think he'll make the Hall eventually too. Great player who seems to be overlooked already even though he just retired a few seasons ago.
It makes sense that Gifford ranks so high with all his Championship appearances. It did hurt McElhenny to have to share the load with Perry and John Henry Johnson for a lot of years. Not having any Championships hurts Matson and 'The King' too.
It's too bad the formula couldn't be tweaked to allow some other all-purpose stats into the mix. Matson had quite a few TD's on kickoff returns. It would pump up Sayers numbers too. But I guess returning punts and kickoffs aren't truly 'running back' duties either.
Still it add's value to the players numbers and rep.
I've always felt that stat's in Football should reflect per game averages and not just totals. Like OJ's 2003 yard rushing season. He did that in 14 games. He averaged 143 yards per game. That's never been topped as far as I know. Sure a few other great backs have also topped 2000 yards and have rushed for 'more yards' but they all did it in a 16 game season, and averaged less per game than the Juice.
Rich
I was REALLY surprised that the Page went for $785. And even more disappointed the Eller went for <$400. I decided not to make a stronger run at that one because I wanted the Page or the Tarkenton more. Now I wish I had placed a bigger bid on that PSA 10 Cortez Kennedy and the Eller. Dammit dammit dammit.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
I'm a little dissappointed feeling the sanders, wehrli, and guy were 8 worthy. Oh well. The Wojo, Griffith and Shaw will be hitting ebay soon.
PSA Order Status for Submission # 4454575
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE
1 31787637 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE 13 HOMER GRIFFITHS N/A 5
2 31787638 1948 BOWMAN 61 ALEX WOJCIECHOWICZ N/A 6
3 31787639 1962 FLEER 16 BILLY SHAW N/A 7
4 31787640 1971 TOPPS 210 CHARLIE SANDERS N/A 7
5 31787641 1971 TOPPS 188 ROGER WEHRLI N/A 7
6 31787642 1974 TOPPS 219 RAY GUY N/A 7
dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
I think particularly with the RB's, it needs to be tweaked. I pretty much used the same criteria as I did for the WR's, and while I think the RB rankings are close, I don't think they are dead on. I'll see what I can work out. Not sure what the availability is of kick and punt return stats. I was already batting around the idea of dividing the player rankings by the number of seasons played, which would show dominance more accurately. Only problem is you would be penalizing players who had long careers, and we all know the HOF does not do that. My goal with these rankings was to try and rate who is most and least HOF worthy players. So I tried to incorporate everything that the HOF voters use to decide worthiness. Maybe I need to subtract points for off the field issues??lol
Josh,
Something I learned a long time ago, if its on ebay and I want/need it bid accordingly. Holding off for budget or to focus on another cards usually ends just like your night did...lol...For me, I bid my high on everything..Sometimes i still lose out on all of it, other times i win more than I thought..It pretty much evens out.
Dave,
I just picked up a PSA 7 Shaw LAST NIGHT, otherwise I would be in the market as i was still looking to replace my PSA 8 that I sold. As it stands right now, I am still 2 cards short from getting back to 100%. I need:
1948 Bowman Pihos PSA 6 or higher
1951 Bowman Lou Creekmur PSA 7 or higher
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I would have bid stronger on the Page and Csonka, but already had some bids in at the ML auction and didn't want to overextend myself. Turns out 6/7 of my bids won in the ML auction
With the Page closing only a few minutes later I didn't want to bid $500 or so on the Eller and then $500+ on the Page as I really don't have $1k laying around to buy those two cards at the same time. I try not to "bid on a budget" but rather "buy on a budget". It was unfortunate for me that all three cards were ending the same day and so close together. The sellers did exceptionally well with the Tark and Page, the Eller guy...not so much. Bummed to see it go that low, but I will take solace in knowing your snipe was set quite a bit higher.
The Page guy way overpaid but again, if the buyer is happy with it... I'll sit back and hope another one comes along a little cheaper. If not, I'll be content with my rock-star 9 I have.
I am bitter about the Cortez Kennedy now though. lol
Jason, I thought you won the PSA 8 Creekmur a few weeks back?
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
The Eller wasn't much cheaper than the norm..They typically sold in the $425ish range last year..I had a feeling it might break $500 though in the current market..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Whenever I see a large quantity of high grade 9's or 10's on ebay, I do a cert. verification look up. I check to see what other cards are/were graded in the same sequence of the psa serial numbers. Usually they are from the same submitter.
So while I'm not accusing the seller, who just had a lot of very high Football and baseball cards ending on ebay last night, of doing anything funny to them.........
please check the certs yourself from :
04601767 to 04601902 . You'll see some pretty amazing results.
They all look to be recently graded too.
This isn't a happy post.
cardbender- I'm not sure what you are alluding too, but when you post " So while I'm not accusing the seller, who just had a lot of very high Football and baseball cards ending on ebay last night, of doing anything funny to them......... ", that's EXACTLY what you are doing. You are accusing someone of doing something you feel is illicit, but don't have actual proof. If you feel the seller has done something wrong, post the evidence.
<< <i>Guys, I hate to put a damper on your latest HOF wins.
Whenever I see a large quantity of high grade 9's or 10's on ebay, I do a cert. verification look up. I check to see what other cards are/were graded in the same sequence of the psa serial numbers. Usually they are from the same submitter.
So while I'm not accusing the seller, who just had a lot of very high Football and baseball cards ending on ebay last night, of doing anything funny to them.........
please check the certs yourself from :
04601767 to 04601902 . You'll see some pretty amazing results.
They all look to be recently graded too.
This isn't a happy post. >>
These are recently graded. While I can't and won't try to prove anyone's guilt or innocence, I can tell you based on experience that PSA has been VERY liberal in their use of the "altered, trimmed" designation on cards. Especially when it comes to subs with high end cards. While I think they have good intentions by making any questionable calls automatic "trimmed/altered" I think what it has done, is it has turned it into the "Boy Who Cried Wolf". I have sent many cards in to PSA over the past year. Many coming back very highly graded 1/1's, etc. And of these, I don't think I've had ONE order of more than 20 cards come back without SOMETHING "trimmed/altered"..And I am talking cards I pulled directly from packs or that came out of PSA cases.
Every single "trimmed/altered" I've got on a card that either came out of a PSA holder or I opened directly from a pack was re-sent to PSA and every single time came back graded a 2nd time.
Basically what I am saying is, when PSA sees a large order with a bunch of high quality cards, they become very cautious. Maybe overly cautious. And any card that gives them a 1% possibility of having an issue, they slap the "trimmed/altered" on it. Obviously, the card is probably going to come back to them for another $13+ grading fee, so whats the harm? Better to have that then to grade a high end card that IS actually trimmed or altered.
Just giving another side to the story, as this has happened to me.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Cardbender- That is rather amazing to see. I always try to have the benefit of the doubt and "hope" my higher grade vintage stuff isn't altered. I wouldn't be surprised to hear or see that a lot of the high grade vintage has been altered in some way, but I really hope it's a much lower percentage than many would think. I don't have a lot of money tied up in it and there is still a lot of unopened stuff so it is possible some stuff comes out that's really nice. <shrug> Not sure what to make of it. I have spent enough time at the big shows, on both sides of the table, to know what goes on and how sophisticated some of these guys get. If there is money to be made, someone will try and make it.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
<< <i>Jason - $40-75 bucks off the normal sale price from last year, seems like a good deal to me, especially the way many of the other HOF rc's have been going lately. The last couple Page 10's I remember seeing were in the $450-485 range, so $785 just seems outlandish to me. My 9 is very nice though, so I'll stick with that for a while.
>>
My $425 was the average from the past year and a half on Eller 9's...I guess the the $274.05 I paid in 2005 was a bargain...lol..I know a couple of others that paid even less ($200-ish) just prior to his HOF induction. Frank is a Philly guy, so he might have more pre-HOF info on the Eller card. I never tracked it until he got inducted...
The Page 10 was actually selling MUCH higher last year..I'm guessing the POPs were lower? In 2006, I tracked it selling for $1224, $1125, $922, and $721...If it were a card I really wanted or needed, I could see paying $800 for it with no problem. I've never seen at under $600..If it were, I would own it..I could have missed one but I don't see anyway the Page 10 sells for under $500 under any circumstance short of the POP exceeding 20+...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason- I've had the same issue. For example, I'm doing the 1993 Upper Deck Rookie Exchange Football set. This set was a 7 card sealed mail-away set from Upper Deck. I would guess that 25% of the submissions for this set were from me. The problem is that the majority of the cards from this set were cut a tad short. I've had dozens of these cards come back "evidence of trimming". That's were I feel the problem lies. If PSA is expert enough to identify a trimmed card, they should be able to differentiate trimmed "from short". When they get a card that is slightly oversized (2000 SP Authentic football) they slab them with the baggy insert. Why can't the slightly smaller (yet un-trimmed) cards be slabbed the same way??
Which brings us back to Cardbenders earlier post. A seller with 100% positive feedback on Ebay over 8 years is now under the shadow of doubt. If we have faith in PSA's ability to grade and find the trimmed cards, there's no need to cast doubt on anyone.
I may be a Philly guy, but I'm terrible at record keeping.
Frank, we've done some deals in the past. I'm not hiding my name behind a message board id. Maybe you recognize my name.
While I didn't actually accuse the seller of these cards as being the one that might have trimmed or altered many of the cards in this spread of numbers. I did imply it and I'll let the evidence between the cert. numbers tell their story. This is unrefutable.
I would suggest that all of you reading this post, take about 30 minutes and review the cert number spread from 04601767 to 04601902. It's very suspicious in my opinion. The seller from ebay of these cards has a lot of feedbacks (over 1500) and doesn't have a negative. So his rep. as a seller is fine and actually very outstanding. It still doesn't mean he or someone he's selling these cards for, isn't doing something shady.
Trust me I didn't like discovering this evidence myself last night. I'm a big supporter of PSA. I have over 3000 vintage cards in PSA slabs in my collection. So yeah, I have a lot of money at stake in this as well. I also have about 125 SGC slabs in my collection for full disclosure.
I do think PSA does a pretty solid job at screening out the trimmed cards too. Sometimes they miss however, as Jason pointed out in his post. No company is perfect and I believe they (PSA or any grading company) should error on the the side of caution when grading big ticket cards in high grade. We've all heard of stories of pulling cards from packs, cello's, or vending that PSA deemed to be 'trimmed' and later they graded and got slabbed up. Erros in judgement do occur occasionaly.
Still, when I see a run of 200 cards in a row and about 30-40 of them have 'evidence of trimming' or 'recolored' or 'altered' in the mix, I don't feel right about the other cards in this run either.
I've spoken to Joe Orlando about this exact subject at a Chicago Sun-Times show two years ago. I had paper print outs of cert. number runs of similar activity with me as hard evidence. He told me that PSA looks at each card individually on it's own merits and grades them accordingly, regardless of other cards in the same batch that might be trimmed. I guess I would agree that this is the proper way to do things. However it still doesn't sit right with me deep down inside. If I were a grader, I would reject the entire order if too high a percentage of them came back as trimmed/altered. But that's me and I don't work at PSA.
Jason, I've submitted over 10,000 vintage card of my own to PSA in the past 7 years. Many from vending. Some not. Of those I've had only 15 cards that came back as trimmed so far. So that's one in what roughly 700 cards. I'm not bragging about this fact, just pointing out that I know how to screen cards.
I'm thinking the submitter of these questionable cards from this cert. run knew exactly what he's was doing to. Like I said, it might not be seller who's the guilty one here. He might have listed these cards for someone else on consignment. But he's now linked to this by merely being the seller of the these cards on ebay.
I really hope this thread doesn't get pulled or disappear. Maybe this is the wrong thread to post this in, however I felt that since all of us posting here are collectors of Football Rookie cards, that this was the proper place for it.
If you don't agree with me, or dislike me me for sharing an opinion on this matter, no problem. Flame away, I can take it.
<< <i>
Jason- I've had the same issue. For example, I'm doing the 1993 Upper Deck Rookie Exchange Football set. This set was a 7 card sealed mail-away set from Upper Deck. I would guess that 25% of the submissions for this set were from me. The problem is that the majority of the cards from this set were cut a tad short. I've had dozens of these cards come back "evidence of trimming". That's were I feel the problem lies. If PSA is expert enough to identify a trimmed card, they should be able to differentiate trimmed "from short". When they get a card that is slightly oversized (2000 SP Authentic football) they slab them with the baggy insert. Why can't the slightly smaller (yet un-trimmed) cards be slabbed the same way??
Which brings us back to Cardbenders earlier post. A seller with 100% positive feedback on Ebay over 8 years is now under the shadow of doubt. If we have faith in PSA's ability to grade and find the trimmed cards, there's no need to cast doubt on anyone. >>
BINGO....This post says it all...
Thanks Frank!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>If you don't agree with me, or dislike me me for sharing an opinion on this matter, no problem. Flame away, I can take it. >>
Cardbender,
I know you are only looking out for our best interests, and the best interests of the hobby in general. I also know that there are very shady things that go on in this hobby that people choose to turn a blind eye to. Whether or not we all want to admit it, trimmed cards do manage to find their way into the holders of all the major grading companies (most notably GAI), but unfortunately PSA and SGC on occasion too. As noted earlier in this thread, nobody's perfect. I respect your opinions and the fact that you put your neck on the line to try to open some eyes. Rock on brother.
Shag
I've never submitted a common in my life..I will be doing so for the first time in the very near future with a bunch of 1984 Topps, so I'll let you know how it turns out...What I initially stated, was if you look at the cert # run, how many of those cards are commons? It's very similar to something i would submit. I screen very carefully as well...I am typically sending in high end, PSA 10 quality cards, 99% of the time rookie cards.
Here are some that I have had graded by PSA in the past year or so:
PSA 7 1935 Chicle Cliff Battles
PSA 7 1948 Leaf Doak Walker
PSA 7 1948 Leaf Bob Waterfield
PSA 8 1951 Bowman Arnie Weinmeister
PSA 8 1952 Bowman Small Joe Stydahar
PSA 10 1961 Fleer Jim Otto--First 10 ever graded
PSA 10 1961 Fleer Don Maynard
PSA 9 1970 Topps Jan Stenerud
PSA 10 1970 Topps Elvin Bethea --First one ever graded
PSA 10 1970 Topps Elvin Bethea --Second one ever graded
PSA 10 1970 Topps Lem Barney
PSA 9 1972 Topps Larry Little
PSA 10 1973 Topps Jack Ham --Second one ever graded
PSA 10 1974 Topps Joe DeLamielleure --First one ever graded
PSA 10 1984 Topps USFL Reggie White
PSA 10 1984 Topps USFL Jim Kelly
I could go on, those are just off the top of my head...My point is, that when you send batches of cards that do NOT contain commons, but all high value cards, PSA looks ALOT harder at the trimmed/altered possibilities...
Instead of perusing cert #s, try looking at entire submissions. If you don't know how to browse them, PM me and i will send you a link so you don't need zip codes..You will see that 99.9% of orders larger than 20 cards will have at LEAST one altered/trimmed...If you find subs like I would send in, or that this seller obviously sent in, the percentages are much higher...I've seen subs where more than 50% of the cards come back trimmed/altered...If that were the case, I might be a little more suspicious...But looking over the cert#s, its not quite that bad..
Anything is possible, but if PSA says it's a 9, you can either take their word and buy, or don;t take their word and not buy..Simple as that..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Trying to take one for the team.
Hi Jason,
Originally when I started grading cards with PSA in 1996 I was sending in all my vintage Baseball stars. I did this slowly and steadily over a five year period of time. So many of my slabs were of the earlier sort and were probably graded by Mike Baker who was then the head of PSA grading.
I had near complete runs and some complete runs of : Aaron, Mays, Clemente, Banks, F. Robinson, Brock, Mathews, Spahn, Stargell, and a few Ted Williams and Musials among others. Plus many other stars too. I also sent in some key Football stars. I would say I've graded well over 3000 HOF'er from pre 1972.
Of those I had approximately five cards that came back trimmed. These were purchased by me from a well known seller in Michigan. A few years after I bought them and they came back trimmed, I approached this seller and they were good enough to buy them back from me when I told them they wouldn't grade.
So yeah, currently I do grade many lower priced cards and commons for my sets and to resell. In the past I have graded many big priced star cards over the years.
I understand about the mini size cards too. Many cards direct from vending are cut that way. Also the '93 UD Football rookie exchange set that was aluded to is the same animal. Cut smaller from the factory. I get that point.
I do also realize that PSA does indeed screen the higher price cards maybe with a little more vigilance than say a $3 common. That goes without saying.
My point of bringing up the cert. run of this seller was that most of the cards were decent priced stars and not commons. There were some Baseball mixed in as well. Even some '86 Fleer Basketball. High powered stuff when given the 10 or 9 grade.
I mean, I guess I could gather up all the certs. and post them here if everyone wanted to see what were talking about but then I'm sure this thread would go poof and I would be banned from posting. That still might happen.
I agree, the bottom line should be if you feel comfortable buying the card, then buy it. Trust me, I think having PSA around is a good thing. And I know they do as good job as possible trying to detect the funny cards.
I really just have a problem over the quantity of the cards being trimmed from this particular cert. run. It seemed unusually high to me.
Cardbender- your id does seem familiar now, but I can't peg what deals we've done from memory at the moment.
I guess the difference is in how you look at the submissions. You seem to feel that if a submission has a certain amount of cards deemed trimmed/altered, that it casts a pall on the rest of the order.
Jason (and myself) feel that it shows that PSA did it's job and caught the questionable cards.
Regardless of how we view the issue, the bottom line is that PSA did it's job.
If I would have one critique about PSA's handling of trimmed or colored cards, I would like to see them point out the alteration on the cardsaver when they return the card.
<< <i>Rich, I'm not doubting your screening prowess...But how many of those 10,000 were commons?
I've never submitted a common in my life..I will be doing so for the first time in the very near future with a bunch of 1984 Topps, so I'll let you know how it turns out...What I initially stated, was if you look at the cert # run, how many of those cards are commons? It's very similar to something i would submit. I screen very carefully as well...I am typically sending in high end, PSA 10 quality cards, 99% of the time rookie cards.
Here are some that I have had graded by PSA in the past year or so:
PSA 7 1935 Chicle Cliff Battles
PSA 7 1948 Leaf Doak Walker
PSA 7 1948 Leaf Bob Waterfield
PSA 8 1951 Bowman Arnie Weinmeister
PSA 8 1952 Bowman Small Joe Stydahar
PSA 10 1961 Fleer Jim Otto--First 10 ever graded
PSA 10 1961 Fleer Don Maynard
PSA 9 1970 Topps Jan Stenerud
PSA 10 1970 Topps Elvin Bethea --First one ever graded
PSA 10 1970 Topps Elvin Bethea --Second one ever graded
PSA 10 1970 Topps Lem Barney
PSA 9 1972 Topps Larry Little
PSA 10 1973 Topps Jack Ham --Second one ever graded
PSA 10 1974 Topps Joe DeLamielleure --First one ever graded
PSA 10 1984 Topps USFL Reggie White
PSA 10 1984 Topps USFL Jim Kelly
I could go on, those are just off the top of my head...My point is, that when you send batches of cards that do NOT contain commons, but all high value cards, PSA looks ALOT harder at the trimmed/altered possibilities...
Instead of perusing cert #s, try looking at entire submissions. If you don't know how to browse them, PM me and i will send you a link so you don't need zip codes..You will see that 99.9% of orders larger than 20 cards will have at LEAST one altered/trimmed...If you find subs like I would send in, or that this seller obviously sent in, the percentages are much higher...I've seen subs where more than 50% of the cards come back trimmed/altered...If that were the case, I might be a little more suspicious...But looking over the cert#s, its not quite that bad..
Anything is possible, but if PSA says it's a 9, you can either take their word and buy, or don;t take their word and not buy..Simple as that..
Jason, those are some tremendous cards you've graded. Congrats!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270107745124
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270107744758
ps after way way to many dealings with Rich to even mention i can tell you for a fact he is no rookie to the psa grading game
<< <i>This makes me sad Anyone want to divulge what they paid for them? >>
It's too bad these auctions arn't able to run their course. Ebay makes it too easy for this stuff to happen...
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>This makes me sad Anyone want to divulge what they paid for them? >>
It's too bad these auctions arn't able to run their course. Ebay makes it too easy for this stuff to happen...
Dave >>
I agree...After seeing WAY too many cards that I was after "end early", I now e-mail to see if the seller is willing to sell outright. If not, great and I let them know I look forward to bidding..If they say they are, then it means they probably will, especially if it is a card alot of collector's are after. Only makes sense to try and "win" the card via offline offer at that point...Otherwise, I'm left feeling "sad" like bcd33...lol
In most cases, I think I pay/spend more when buying offline or with a BIN than I do on an auction that runs its course...Just the nature of the game these days..
This is one of the good things about 4SC, they won't end auctions early.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If you have a good relationship with the seller and contact them to end it early, its not who you know, but who you ...
52 Bowman Large McElhenny
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>This looks trimmed to me. Anyone else agree??
52 Bowman Large McElhenny >>
I would say so...The borders don't measure correctly, even giving the benefit of the doubt because of the tilt...Its also possible the scanner is just playing tricks, but me personally..I wouldn't risk $.50 on this one to find out..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I just picked up this one for $100. I think I overpayed slightly, but I like em centered. I'll be happy if it grades a 5. Top right corner may give me some problems
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Ive seen alot more cards lately ending early. Its kind of frustrating, but I guess its becoming part of the eternal quest for that one card. >>
Basically, if you can't beat em, join em. If a card is listed that you really want, you should contact the seller ASAP just to see if he's interested in selling outright. You don't even have to give an amount in the initial e-mail, so as not to show your hand, so to speak. Just state your interest. It's the best way to make sure that a seller will allow you to make or top an offer before ending an auction, if he's open to doing that. Of course it doesn't always work out that way, but if there's a card you just have to have, make SURE the seller knows you're interested. That's really the best advice I can give you.
<< <i>Looks narrow the whole way around to me.
I just picked up this one for $100. I think I overpayed slightly, but I like em centered. I'll be happy if it grades a 5. Top right corner may give me some problems
My 6 cost me $120-ish. If that gets into a 6 holder, you've got a nicely centered copy for a little bit less than the going rate. Nice pickup I'd say.
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Jason, I saw a 1951 PSA 8 Lou Creekmur. I know you need it so here is a link
1951 PSA 8 Lou Creekmur
<< <i>Is $1200 the norm for a PSA 8 55 Don Hutson? One just ended on Ebay last night for $1200.
Jason, I saw a 1951 PSA 8 Lou Creekmur. I know you need it so here is a link
1951 PSA 8 Lou Creekmur >>
Geee, thanks for broadcasting...lolol
My snipe is already set as of about 5 minutes after the auction was listed..Probably won't be high enough though..I lost the last one as well...I'll get one sooner or later...
Hutson 8's usually sell in the $600-$750 range...$1200 is the highest I've ever tracked..One other sold for $900 plus in 2005...It's always a popular card..Top player for a top team..
A PSA 9 sold for $2299 last year...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
DAve
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
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Here it was raw.
And the results are in..........................
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE
1 31787643 1966 PHILADELPHIA 45 GENE HICKERSON N/A 8
What have the last couple 8s sold for???
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Congrats Dave..Gotta love it when you score a card like that!!!
Lots of HOF collectors still need it, you should have no problem moving it if that's what you want to do...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Wow. No offense Dave, but that 8 aint a looker. Did you slip a $100 bill in with the sub? Just kidding
$380!!! I bought my PSA 8 the day he was announced as a senior finalist for $27 dlvd. Not a bad deal!!
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Congrats.
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Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
It's hitting ebay as soon as it arrives.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow. No offense Dave, but that 8 aint a looker. Did you slip a $100 bill in with the sub? Just kidding
$380!!! I bought my PSA 8 the day he was announced as a senior finalist for $27 dlvd. Not a bad deal!!
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I got my first PSA 8 Hickerson the day before he was "officially" announced as a senior finalist for $16.95 from Mickey's Sportscards..lol..Same with the Charlie Sanders PSA 8, $20 from 4SC on ebay...Definitely helps save money to be paying attention just as Greg and I did..Hopefully I will get the early word again this year and have the cards before the public announcement is made..lol
Well, that is if I don't already have them!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Let's create a new Football key card set (or two) .... Future HOF RC's
Given that this is highly subjective, we would have to have some criterion or appoint a selection committee (chaired by Jason of course).
We could have Current Players (or pre HOF elligible) -- Future HOF Locks RC's (as discussed previuosly in the thread)
We could also have a Senior Selection Future HOF RC's (guys that have a signifigant chance of getting in at some point)
What do you guys think?
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Once we figure out the guys we want, I can put together the spreadsheet IAW how Cosetta usually wants them to include weighting...
Mike, do you want to post some lists of names to start the voting? We had quite a few modern and senior candidates listed earlier in this thread.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
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