Upstanding citizens? Not necessarily. Not violent criminals? Yeah, I kind of prefer that, myself.
As for Tyrer's situation, it seems more tragic and horrible than anything else. Judging by the info earlier in the thread, he was troubled much like Andre Waters or maybe Mike Webster, rather than a really bad person. That's no comfort to those affected by his actions, really, but it puts things in better perspective, at least for me.
<< <i>Upstanding citizens? Not necessarily. Not violent criminals? Yeah, I kind of prefer that, myself.
As for Tyrer's situation, it seems more tragic and horrible than anything else. Judging by the info earlier in the thread, he was troubled much like Andre Waters or maybe Mike Webster, rather than a really bad person. That's no comfort to those affected by his actions, really, but it puts things in better perspective, at least for me. >>
I agree w/ you that it was more on the side of tragic/horrible than Tyrer being a cold blooded murderer but the fact still remains that he murdered his wife and then shot himself.
Let me ask a different question, if O.J. had killed (or been accused of killing) his ex-wife and Ronald Goldman before being inducted in the HOF, would he still be enshrined in the HOF today?
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
1. Is Art Powell's rookie 1961 Topps or was a 1961 Fleer card made of him? 2. What is Billy Howton's rc? Is it 1955 Bowman? 3. Did anyone ever consider Charley Hennigan? His career stats were impressive:
1. Is Art Powell's rookie 1961 Topps or was a 1961 Fleer card made of him? 2. What is Billy Howton's rc? Is it 1955 Bowman? 3. Did anyone ever consider Charley Hennigan? His career stats were impressive:
Plus a 5 time Pro Bowler to boot (consecutive 1961 to 1965)
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I will add Hennigan to the list...The downside to him is that he got his stats in the early AFL years, which are considered by many about the same as USFL or CFL stats..Yes, they do count, but it seems like the voters consider anything pre-1965 AFL almost meaningless...And that's when he got most of his stats. He was a senior nominee a few years ago, but wasn't even nominated last year...(FYI 74 others were)..If he isn't in the top 74 Senior candidates, I wouldn't think he has any chance....
Greg, I still don't have your YES/NO votes for the senior list..Let us know who you think belongs and who doesnt...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I will give a blanket yes to all of the players. I trust the Senior Committee (and your judgement) that the list includes players who deserve consideration (which is what we're after). There will likely be stragglers here and there that we won't identify....but that should be the exception rather than the rule.
Another player that I think will get in one day is Duke Slater - but he never had a card made of him.
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
List has been updated...With 8 voters so far, any player who currently has 5 or more votes will be added (majority)...
Looks like 26 total players. I will let the voting run throughout the weekend, and lock it down Monday and submit to Cosetta.
The Terrell Davis voting is now closed, and based on the clear majority vote, we will go with the SP as his RC in the set. If anyone is interested in a PSA 10 Select Certified TD RC, I have one for sale..lol
I will also request this set and send in the spreadsheet on Monday.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I vote to keep the senior list as is. In my opinion...the larger the pool the better.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I know..I added a vote to every player on the list for you...But its going to be majority rule..Most of us don't want every one of these players on the set, because frankly many of them have zero chance..I voted for like 27 of them.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
No offense - but I think the voting is too biased...or even better put it's not taking into account the merits of the players stats (as most of us never saw these players on the field). In my opinion, the best way to determine the list is to tally up all the senior finalists over the past 20 to 25 years and determine what players have the most votes by position. From there, set a cutoff and only include the players above the cutoff.
I'm saying this because based on the votes below, only 1 QB, 1 RB, 0 TE, ect... would be included which I think is misleading. I agree what you say about early AFL players but how can we ignore if these players have been senior finalists in the past. Maybe one day (soon) there will be a reversal (revival if you must) in thinking and the early AFL stats will be taken more serious. Let's face it, many of the early players played in leagues that are now disfunct...for instance Otto Graham. Am I correct is assuming that a portion of his early stats occurred in the AAFC? Just food for thought.
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
No offense - but I think the voting is too biased...or even better put it's not taking into account the merits of the players stats (as most of us never saw these players on the field). In my opinion, the best way to determine the list is to tally up all the senior finalists over the past 20 to 25 years and determine what players have the most votes by position. From there, set a cutoff and only include the players above the cutoff.
I'm saying this because based on the votes below, only 1 QB, 1 RB, 0 TE, ect... would be included which I think is misleading. I agree what you say about early AFL players but how can we ignore if these players have been senior finalists in the past. Maybe one day (soon) there will be a reversal (revival if you must) in thinking and the early AFL stats will be taken more serious. Let's face it, many of the early players played in leagues that are now disfunct...for instance Otto Graham. Am I correct is assuming that a portion of his early stats occurred in the AAFC? Just food for thought.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg, the Senior SEMI-Finalists are not released publically....If you can find those lists for the past 20-25 years then I am down with your plan...I can access the past 3 years...Just adding the different senior SEMI-finalists from the past 3 years gives you 23 of the guys on my initial list of 50...Only 2 Seniors go in every year...It would take 14 years if it was each of those players...I want the set to be a realistic example of Senior candidates who could be elected..Not a roll call of 100+ players when 80% of which would really not have a chance...To clarify, the senior committee works much like the modern candidate voting...They choose from a list of Senior Candidate nominees (typically 65-80) and narrow that list to 17 (15 prior to 2007 vote) senior semi-finalists. From that list, they choose 2 Senior FINALISTS who will be voted on by the HOF voters along with the 15 modern candidates for election to the HOF.
As far as the QB, RBs go, the HOF committees typically give those type players very hard looks as modern candidates. How many QBs, RBs have been elected as Senior candidates in the past 20 years? Benny Friedman and Leroy Kelly..Thats it...Like I said, these are guys that are usually not overlooked because of the position they play.
Regardless, we all have different ideas as to what this set should be. The best way I know to determine this is via popular vote..Once the set is added and you feel there are some players who are missing, you will be free to send a request to PSA who will poll the rest of the collectors for a Yes/No to the addition...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Rick Gosselin, one of the most respected NFL writers in the country ranked the best Hall of Fame senior candidates before last year's elections. What makes these rankings meaningful is that Gosselin is a member of the seniors committee, which each year selects two candidates to be considered in front of the HOF voting committee. And you'll see his top 2 choices were chosen as the Senior Finalists last year.
Here are his rankings:
1, TE Charlie Sanders, Lions; 2, G Gene Hickerson, Browns; 3, WR Bob Hayes, Cowboys; 4, C Mick Tingelhoff, Vikings; 5, OT Jim Tyrer, Chiefs.
6, S Johnny Robinson, Chiefs; 7, S Cliff Harris, Cowboys; 8, G Ed Budde, Chiefs; 9, LB Chuck Howley, Cowboys; 10, Billy Wilson, 49ers.
11, LB Maxie Baughan, Eagles; 12, LB Chris Hanburger, Redskins; 13, OT Winston Hill, Jets; 14, L.C. Greenwood, Steelers; 15, LB Les Richter, Rams.
16, LB Tommy Nobis, Falcons; 17, LB Joe Fortunato, Bears; 18, DE Claude Humphrey; 19, OT Dick Stanfel, Lions; 20, CB Emmitt Thomas, Chiefs.
21, LB Lee Roy Jordan, Cowboys; 22, S Jake Scott, Dolphins; 23, HB Floyd Little, Broncos; 24, TE Pete Retzlaff, Eagles; 25, CB Dick LeBeau, Lions.
26, G Gale Gillingham, Packers; 27, TE Fred Arbanas, Chiefs; 28, DT Alex Karras, Lions; 29, G Jerry Kramer, Packers; 30, LB Dave Robinson, Packers.
31, CB Pat Fischer, Redskins; 32, WR Otis Taylor, Chiefs
We could go strictly with this list of 32 if everyone wants to...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here's an article from Dr. Z, who used to be on the Senior Committee. This was done in August of 2003, prior to the 2004 HOF elections:
Every year one Seniors candidate comes up for enshrinement, along with the group of moderns. The Seniors candidate who is presented is chosen from a list of 15, which has been boiled down from a preliminary roster of 68 names. I have just gone through the initial 68 and chosen my 15 Seniors nominees. So have the other eight members of the Seniors Committee.
On Aug. 14, five of us will sit down in Canton, Ohio, to go over the 15 names that have received the most votes and we'll choose one Seniors candidate to present to the full group of selectors -- 38, I believe at this juncture -- at the meeting in January.
That's the easy part. Now here comes the complicated portion: What determines a Seniors candidate? The current rule, or at least it is current if you are reading this column on Friday, Aug. 1 -- it will most likely change the following day -- states that 70 percent of a Senior's career had to take place 25 or more years ago. This seems like a simple mathematical proposition, but it's not. It has fuzzled some of the great brains in pro football, and it's something I've never been able to remember. Is it 20 years and 75 percent, or 25 and 75, or what? And do you count back from last season or do you include this current one?
So the Hall of Fame people have ruled that this formula is too complicated, and they've decided to simplify it by merely saying that you're a Senior if your career ended 25 or more years ago, never mind the percentages. So if you played until 1978, you're a Senior. If you made it until 1979, you're not. You're still a modern candidate. On Saturday, Aug. 2, the Hall's Board of Directors will vote this proposition in, Horrigan assured me.
How do I feel about this? Mixed reactions. The new formula is certainly easier to understand, but it hits me personally because it will affect the guy for whom I'll be pushing hardest, former Dallas free safety Cliff Harris.
I've been at quite a few of these five-man Seniors Committee meetings. Sometimes I've had pretty good luck in gathering support for a guy I was really passionate about, such as 49ers linebacker Dave Wilcox. All you need is two more votes to swing the nominee you want. I feel I have a decent shot with Harris, who is the best free safety I've ever seen -- of a certain type. I class free safeties into two categories (and I've written this many times): the range type -- Willie Wood and Larry Wilson are my favorites in that style; and the killer-type, or the "obstructionist" as Al Davis likes to term it. Jack Tatum was the hardest hitter among that bunch, Harris was a guided missile who had originally come up as a cornerback and had the coverage skills and instincts Tatum lacked. Harris' all-around effectiveness, plus his feared hitting, made him the best killer-type free safety who ever lived, at least in my eyes.
But it's been a tough sell to the selectors at large, and I've never been able to swing enough votes for him. Harris' last year was 1979. Under the current rules he'd be a Senior. Under the new ones, which are expected to go into effect on Aug. 2, he'll be a modern candidate. Granted, he'd be a Senior next year, but the five-man committee is a rotating thing, and the chances are that I won't be on it a year from now. Two years from now? Who knows where any of us will be in two years?
There's still one hope, though. When the Board meets this Saturday, it will also consider my long-standing proposal that two Seniors candidates, not one, come up for enshrinement every year.
"Is anyone taking it seriously? Is anyone really in my corner?" I asked Horrigan.
"Lots of people," he said. "It's got a shot."
Well, I've had my heart broken too many times to really count on my proposal going through. If it happens, it'll be a real mitzvah, as they say in the old country. If not, I'll retreat to my bunker, gather my ammo and get ready to launch another assault. In the meantime, just for those of you out there who like names, here are the 68 preliminary candidates, plus the 15 I voted for.
QUARTERBACKS: Frankie Albert, Charlie Conerly, Benny Friedman, John Hadl, Tobin Rote.
The name I checked off was Friedman's. He'll be my fallback candidate to push if Harris is truly dropped from the Seniors pool. Friedman was the greatest passer in the league's early years, the 1920s and '30s. He was a pioneer, and isn't that what the Hall of Fame is all about? Innovation? Leaving your mark on the game? He was passed over for many years. He was always a yes-but ... yes, he was great, but others were more deserving. People such as Friedman would benefit most from a two-candidate system. Now just because I didn't choose some other people, don't think that I didn't feel they were worthy. It's just that 15 names out of such a great roster of 68 isn't a lot.
RUNNING BACKS: Larry Brown, Beattie Feathers, Willie Galimore, Marshall Goldberg, Tony Latone, Floyd Little, Fritz Pollard, Glenn Presnell.
Little, Pollard and Presnell were the names I checked off. Little was my man based on pure talent. Pollard was a black player and coach in the 1920s -- a true pioneer facing incredibly tough odds. Presnell was a run-pass single-wing tailback who had a short career. I used to hear Weeb Ewbank talk about Presnell all the time. I just wanted to get his name in there. Feathers' name does not belong on this list. He had one significant year, his rookie season of 1934, when he rushed for 1,004 yards and an 8.4 average. The rest of his career was so mediocre that many people suspect that his big rookie numbers were a fluke and punt and kick return yardage was inadvertently mixed in. Galimore, who died tragically as at age 29, got off some of the most incredible runs I'd ever seen. There just weren't enough of them. Latone has the distinction of being the only person to have come up on a Hall of Fame list whom I'd never heard of. I had to look him up. Played for Pottstown, Boston and Providence from 1925-30. Scored 26 TDs. Now you know as much about Tony Latone as I do.
ENDS, WIDE RECEIVERS, TIGHT ENDS: Gino Cappelletti, Gary Collins, Bob Hayes, Ron Kramer, Art Powell, Pete Retzlaff, Kyle Rote, Charlie Sanders, Mac Speedie, Otis Taylor.
Now do you understand why we need to present two people every year instead of one? Just look at this list. I'd be very happy going with Hayes, or working on his behalf. Ditto Speedie and Taylor. Theses are the three names I checked off, incidentally. All these great players ... narrowing the list down is just brutal.
OFFENSIVE LINEMEN: Bob Brown, Ed Budde, Ken Gray, Gene Hickerson, Jerry Kramer, Lou Rymkus, Rich Saul, Dick Stanfel, Walt Sweeney, Bob Talamini, Fuzzy Thurston, Mick Tingelhoff, Al Wistert, Rayfield Wright.
There are at least half a dozen players here whom I feel should already have been enshrined. I'm overwhelmed by this mass of names, so overwhelmed that I didn't check off any of them. They must come later, after Harris and Friedman and Hayes and a few others. Sorry, but you can't bring everyone up.
Actually two of them were Seniors candidates at one time, and both were turned down by the main body of selectors, which is an awfully rough thing. Kramer was dinged by selectors, and I still don't know why ... too much publicity after his book, Instant Replay, I guess, although that shouldn't be a factor.
Stanfel also was presented on one occasion. I was on the Seniors Committee that chose him. I didn't vote for him. One of the consultants at our committee meeting, a Hall of Famer who is called upon to act as an advisor, was Bob St. Clair, the former 49ers tackle. He was asked to rate the candidates on a scale of one to 10 points. He gave out sixes and sevens as people's names came up. When Stanfel was mentioned he went absolutely nuts. "In a 10-point system, he'd be an 11," St. Clair said. Absolutely the best ever," etc. etc. Not many people knew it, but when I was at Stanford we played against the University of San Francisco one year and Stanfel was on that team, and so was St. Clair, who'd been his roommate. And after that Seniors Committee meeting, when we were walking back to our cars after St. Clair had swung the election for his buddy, I said to him, "You ought to be a politician." "I am," he said. "I'm mayor of Hayward., Calif."
DEFENSIVE LINEMEN: Gene Brito, Roger Brown, Carl Eller, Bill Glass, Rich Jackson, Alex Karras, Gene Lipscomb, Jim Marshall, Dick Modzelewski, Tom Sestak, Ed Sprinkle.
Again, an embarrassment of riches. I voted for Jackson, one of, if not the best DE I've seen; Karras, whose abrasive personality has, I believe, gotten him in bad with some selectors through the years; and Sestak, an underrated rock on the great Buffalo lines of the 1960s. Lipscomb will also get a check mark if Harris' name goes off the list.
LINEBACKERS: Chris Hanburger, E.J. Holub, Chuck Howley, Lee Roy Jordan, Walt Michaels, Tommy Nobis, Les Richter, Dave Robinson.
My votes -- Jordan and Howley, great coverage and range LBs who were also terrific tacklers on those fine Cowboys Doomsday Defenses, and Robinson, one of the first of the truly great size and speed OLBs in history.
DEFENSIVE BACKS: Dick Anderson, Erich Barnes, Jack Butler, Bobby Dillon, Pat Fischer, Cliff Harris, Dick LeBeau, Johnny Robinson.
Harris gets the check mark. I feel sick about leaving off Butler, one of the all-time great ballhawks, or one-eyed Bobby Dillon. It's a terrible problem, all these fine names and so few spots open.
KICKERS/PUNTERS: Tommy Davis.
My man. The best punter I've ever seen. He'll only have a chance if there's a two-Seniors system, however, and even then his selection will be iffy.
COACHES/CONTRIBUTORS: Blanton Collier, John Madden, Ed (Dutch) Sternaman.
Worthy candidates, sure, but I'm afraid I didn't check any of them off. Not this year, not after coaches have been the Seniors candidates the last two seasons (George Allen followed by Hank Stram). Coaches and owners, etc. should not compete with players for positions for a place in the Hall. There should be a different door.
OK, I know this list of mine will draw hundreds of angry responses -- the people I've omitted, etc. All of those gripes will be justified. But do this yourself. Write down all 68 names, choose 15, and just look at the roster of greatness you've neglected. It's tragic, actually.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
That list by Gosselin is interesting. Although many of them are on my list to get, there are several that I have never even heard of including Tyrer, Budd, Baughan, Hill and Richter amongst others. I don't claim to have vast football knowledge though...
Updated list w/ vote count...As of right now, anyone with 6** or more votes would make the set:
QBs Charlie Conerly-7** John Hadl-2 Jack Kemp-2 John Brodie-2 Roman Gabriel-3
RBs Larry Brown-3 Beattie Feathers-2 Willie Galimore-2 Floyd Little-8** Paul Lowe-2 Clem Daniels-2 Chuck Foreman-2 Don Perkins-2 Alan Ameche-2 'Deacon' Dan Towler-2
WRs Bob Hayes-8** Billy Howton-2 Art Powell-2 Pete Retzlaff-3 Del Shofner-3 Mac Speedie-8** Otis Taylor-8** Billy Wilson-8** Max McGee-2 Ken Kavanaugh-2 Gino Cappelletti-2 Gary Collins-2 Charley Hennigan-1
TE Jerry Smith-3 Bob Tucker-2 Lionel Taylor-2 Fred Arbanas-1
OL Ed Budde-3 Ken Gray-2 Winston Hill-3 Jerry Kramer-8** John Niland-2 Dick Stanfel-8** Walt Sweeney-4 Mick Tingelhoff-9** Fuzzy Thurston-2 Jim Tyrer-6** Grady Alderman-2 Dick Schafrath-2 Gale Gillingham-3 Len Hauss-2 George Kunz-2 Ray Wietecha-2 Jim Ray Smith-2 Ralph Neely-2 Bucko Kilroy-2
DLs Gene Brito-2 Curley Culp-2 L.C. Greenwood-9** Claude Humphrey-8** Rich Jackson-6** Alex Karras-7** Gene Lipscomb-6** Jim Marshall-5 Jerry Mays-2 Tom Sestak-2 Cedric Hardman-2 Bill Stanfill-2
LBs Maxie Baughan-3 Chris Hanburger-9** E.J. Holub-2 Chuck Howley-9** Lee Roy Jordan-8** Tommy Nobis-9** Les Richter-4 Dave Robinson-8** Andy Russell-6** Bill Bergey-2 Mike Stratton-2 Isiah Robertson-2 Joe Fortunato-1
DBs Dick Anderson-2 Jack Butler-6** Pat Fischer-8** Cliff Harris-9** Lemar Parrish-6** Johnny Robinson-7** Bob Boyd-2 Bobby Dillion-2 Jake Scott-3 Erich Barnes-2 Jimmy Patton-2 Dave Grayson-2 Dick LeBeau-1 Emmitt Thomas-1
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
First, SP should be the card for Terrell Davis darn I've got the Select Certified.
Second, I am concerned that using the voting alone will limit the set to those with name recognition not those most likely to be elected the two do not go hand-in-hand.
That being said, the voting looks good.
I do have a question -
How many players would you have if you took the two lists you cited and included the players who appeared on both lists and added those players to the top vote getters.
Marc.
Marc.
Have shine box will travel ------------ BOBBY ORR THE BEST THERE WAS! THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE! ------------
Ok, just got done talking to a buddy of mine with what I believe to be pretty solid info on the senior voting over the past 3 years...Basically what I'm saying is, he knows who has been closest. I can say with 99% confidence (votes can always change..lol), that the 2 Senior finalists for 2008 will come from this group:
**Mick Tingelhoff **Chuck Howley **Claude Humphrey **Cliff Harris **Dave Robinson **L.C. Greenwood **Bob Hayes **Lee Roy Jordan **Tommy Nobis **Jim Marshall
All of these guys have been very close to the top in the voting the past 3 years...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Ok, just got done talking to a buddy of mine with what I believe to be pretty solid info on the senior voting over the past 3 years...Basically what I'm saying is, he knows who has been closest. I can say with 99% confidence (votes can always change..lol), that the 2 Senior finalists for 2008 will come from this group:
**Mick Tingelhoff **Chuck Howley **Claude Humphrey **Cliff Harris **Dave Robinson **L.C. Greenwood **Bob Hayes **Lee Roy Jordan **Tommy Nobis **Jim Marshall
All of these guys have been very close to the top in the voting the past 3 years...
Jason >>
I have also heard from John Mclain who is on the senior committe that Bob Hayes was a very close #3 last year.
<< <i>Shouldn't Marshall be added to our set since his is in that list? >>
Jim Marshall is one vote short in our message board poll..I can add a vote for you if you like Dave and that will put him at 6..Personally, I don;t think he's worthy...Does a guy deserve to go into the HOF just because he played forever? Give him a 12 year career instead of 20 and he wouldn't even be worth mentioning...His claim to fame was longevity and running that fumble back the wrong way...He was the 3rd best DL on his OWN TEAM...lol..Would be the first "3rd best" on his own team at a position to make the HOF...But based on what I've been told, he's been in the close the last 3 years...
Brain, you are absolutely correct on Hayes..Which surprised me since he was a Senior finalist in 2004 and didn't get the 80% vote needed for induction..I would think he wouldn't even be a consideration for 10 years or so...He was also very close in 2005 and 2006...I have to think, based on the support he has from many of the voters, that he will eventually get in...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Anyone else watching the PSA 8 Hayes getting ready to end?? >>
What Hayes??? That's not his rookie..You should be looking for the 63 Philly..Nothing to see here, move along...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
LOL..I won't be bidding. I'm running low in my paypal account. I need to wait til I get my Shaw 7, Hickerson 8, and Chicle Griffith 5 back from PSA. This HOF set has become a strong addiction to me and I need to curb my spending a little bit....
The good news is that I seem to be doing well buying raw and submitting to fund my addiction...
<< <i>LOL..I won't be bidding. I'm running low in my paypal account. I need to wait til I get my Shaw 7, Hickerson 8, and Chicle Griffith 5 back from PSA. This HOF set has become a strong addiction to me and I need to curb my spending a little bit....
The good news is that I seem to be doing well buying raw and submitting to fund my addiction...
Dave >>
You won't be bidding, but now 5 others who maybe missed the auction will...Come on we got to keep these football rookies under the radar for as long as we can...Ok, so maybe its a bit late for that, but I can dream can't I??lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>You won't be bidding, but now 5 others who maybe missed the auction will...Come on we got to keep these football rookies under the radar for as long as we can...Ok, so maybe its a bit late for that, but I can dream can't I??lol >>
sorry... Maybe we are the only losers playing with our football cards on a saturday night.
Hey Jason, what is the going price for a nice psa 5 dutch clark??
<< <i>Jim Marshall is one vote short in our message board poll..I can add a vote for you if you like Dave and that will put him at 6. [...] He was the 3rd best DL on his OWN TEAM... >>
Considering the other two guys are Page and Eller, you're kind of praising him with faint damns.
If this voting is open to everybody reading the thread and not just peopple actively compiling this set, count me in for Jim.
<< <i>Let me ask a different question, if O.J. had killed (or been accused of killing) his ex-wife and Ronald Goldman before being inducted in the HOF, would he still be enshrined in the HOF today?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I have a really hard time imagining that he would. I know people are instructed now to ignore character issues, but that's very different than being a crackhead like LT. Even though I think they're both violent scumbags, even Irvin and Ray Lewis' situations are murkier than that one. Good question.
<< <i>Jim Marshall is one vote short in our message board poll..I can add a vote for you if you like Dave and that will put him at 6. [...] He was the 3rd best DL on his OWN TEAM... >>
Considering the other two guys are Page and Eller, you're kind of praising him with faint damns.
If this voting is open to everybody reading the thread and not just peopple actively compiling this set, count me in for Jim.
<< <i>Let me ask a different question, if O.J. had killed (or been accused of killing) his ex-wife and Ronald Goldman before being inducted in the HOF, would he still be enshrined in the HOF today?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I have a really hard time imagining that he would. I know people are instructed now to ignore character issues, but that's very different than being a crackhead like LT. Even though I think they're both violent scumbags, even Irvin and Ray Lewis' situations are murkier than that one. Good question. >>
Voting is open for everyone..Is Marshall the only guy you want to vote for and you think belongs? 2 Pro Bowls in 20 years? Never once was a 1st team All-Pro...To me, that just doesn't say "greatness" or "dominance"...Based on the attention the 2 guys he played beside got from the Offense, why wasn't this guy more dominant? I've watched him on film, and from everything I saw he was a good player, but not a HOFer..If he ever gets in it will be for the same reason that George Blanda and Jackie Slater got in...All good players who became great because they played forever...
Anyway, let me know who else you'd like to vote for...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>You won't be bidding, but now 5 others who maybe missed the auction will...Come on we got to keep these football rookies under the radar for as long as we can...Ok, so maybe its a bit late for that, but I can dream can't I??lol >>
sorry... Maybe we are the only losers playing with our football cards on a saturday night.
Hey Jason, what is the going price for a nice psa 5 dutch clark?? >>
Dave usually in the $300-$400 range, although some have sold upwards of $500 in the past..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'll review the thread and do a full recommendation. I just wanted to tip Jim over the edge if he needed a vote.
Like I've written before, I think there are many roads to Canton. Being a key member of a dominant unit/team is one, for me. Which is why I'd like to see guys like Dave Robinson, Dwight White and L.C. Greenwood, among many others, enshrined. The "too many players from that team already" thing doesn't carry any water with me.
Jason, I'll use your latest list as a template and remove a few here and there, as warranted. Consider everybody left here as having an "Aye" vote from me.
<< <i> QBs Charlie Conerly-7** John Hadl-2 John Brodie-2 Roman Gabriel-3
RBs Larry Brown-3 Floyd Little-8** Paul Lowe-2 Chuck Foreman-2
WRs Bob Hayes-8** Billy Howton-2 Mac Speedie-8** Otis Taylor-8** Billy Wilson-8** Charley Hennigan-1
TE Jerry Smith-3 Bob Tucker-2 Lionel Taylor-2
OL Ed Budde-3 Winston Hill-3 Jerry Kramer-8** John Niland-2 Dick Stanfel-8** Walt Sweeney-4 Mick Tingelhoff-9** Fuzzy Thurston-2 Jim Tyrer-6** Grady Alderman-2 Dick Schafrath-2 Gale Gillingham-3 Len Hauss-2 George Kunz-2
DLs Gene Brito-2 Curley Culp-2 L.C. Greenwood-9** Claude Humphrey-8** Rich Jackson-6** Alex Karras-7** Gene Lipscomb-6** Jim Marshall-5 Cedric Hardman-2
LBs Maxie Baughan-3 Chris Hanburger-9** E.J. Holub-2 Chuck Howley-9** Lee Roy Jordan-8** Tommy Nobis-9** Les Richter-4 Dave Robinson-8** Andy Russell-6** Bill Bergey-2 Isiah Robertson-2
DBs Dick Anderson-2 Jack Butler-6** Pat Fischer-8** Cliff Harris-9** Lemar Parrish-6** Johnny Robinson-7** Jake Scott-3 Erich Barnes-2 Emmitt Thomas-1
K/P Jim Bakken-3 Jerrel Wilson-2 >>
Happy to see Lemar Parrish get some love. He was special.
Below are my picks from the list. I have way too many names on here, but I could honestly make a case for every one of them. I even dropped guys like Lebeau, and E. Thomas at DB. I dropped some of the players I even suggested being considered. I tried to pick 50, I think I have 66 here. So if the HOf put's in two seniors a year from my picks, it will take 33 years to see all these guys get enshined. I'll be 76 then!
Rich
QBs
Charlie Conerly John Hadl John Brodie Roman Gabriel
RBs
Paul Lowe Clem Daniels Chuck Foreman Don Perkins Alan Ameche 'Deacon' Dan Towler
WRs
Bob Hayes Billy Howton Art Powell Del Shofner Mac Speedie Otis Taylor Billy Wilson Max McGee Ken Kavanaugh Gino Cappelletti Gary Collins
TE
Jerry Smith Bob Tucker Lionel Taylor
OL
Ed Budde Winston Hill Jerry Kramer Dick Stanfel Mick Tingelhoff Fuzzy Thurston Jim Tyrer Grady Alderman Dick Schafrath Gale Gillingham Len Hauss George Kunz Ray Wietecha Bucko Kilroy
DLs
Gene Brito L.C. Greenwood Claude Humphrey Rich Jackson Alex Karras Jim Marshall Tom Sestak Bill Stanfill
LBs
Maxie Baughan Chris Hanburger Chuck Howley Lee Roy Jordan Tommy Nobis Les Richter Dave Robinson Andy Russell Bill Bergey
DBs
Jack Butler Pat Fischer Cliff Harris Lemar Parrish Johnny Robinson Bobby Dillion Jake Scott Erich Barnes Jimmy Patton
Updated list w/ vote count...As of right now, anyone with 7** or more votes would make the set:
QBs Charlie Conerly-10** John Hadl-4 Jack Kemp-1 John Brodie-4 Roman Gabriel-5
RBs Larry Brown-4 Beattie Feathers-2 Willie Galimore-2 Floyd Little-10** Paul Lowe-4 Clem Daniels-3 Chuck Foreman-4 Don Perkins-3 Alan Ameche-3 'Deacon' Dan Towler-3
WRs Bob Hayes-11** Billy Howton-4 Art Powell-3 Pete Retzlaff-3 Del Shofner-4 Mac Speedie-10** Otis Taylor-11** Billy Wilson-10** Max McGee-3 Ken Kavanaugh-3 Gino Cappelletti-3 Gary Collins-3 Charley Hennigan-2
TE Jerry Smith-5 Bob Tucker-4 Lionel Taylor-4 Fred Arbanas-1
OL Ed Budde-6 Ken Gray-3 Winston Hill-5 Jerry Kramer-11** John Niland-3 Dick Stanfel-10** Walt Sweeney-5 Mick Tingelhoff-12** Fuzzy Thurston-4 Jim Tyrer-9** Grady Alderman-4 Dick Schafrath-4 Gale Gillingham-5 Len Hauss-4 George Kunz-4 Ray Wietecha-3 Jim Ray Smith-2 Ralph Neely-2 Bucko Kilroy-3
DLs Gene Brito-4 Curley Culp-3 L.C. Greenwood-12** Claude Humphrey-11** Rich Jackson-8** Alex Karras-9** Gene Lipscomb-8** Jim Marshall-8** Jerry Mays-2 Tom Sestak-3 Cedric Hardman-3 Bill Stanfill-3
LBs Maxie Baughan-5 Chris Hanburger-12** E.J. Holub-4 Chuck Howley-12** Lee Roy Jordan-11** Tommy Nobis-12** Les Richter-6 Dave Robinson-11** Andy Russell-9** Bill Bergey-4 Mike Stratton-2 Isiah Robertson-3 Joe Fortunato-1
DBs Dick Anderson-3 Jack Butler-8** Pat Fischer-10** Cliff Harris-12** Lemar Parrish-8** Johnny Robinson-10** Bob Boyd-2 Bobby Dillion-3 Jake Scott-5 Erich Barnes-4 Jimmy Patton-3 Dave Grayson-2 Dick LeBeau-1 Emmitt Thomas-2
As of now, 27 players would make the list. A few others are very close, I'll let the vote run until tomorrow morning...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Charlie Conerly John Hadl Jack Kemp John Brodie Roman Gabriel
Didn't you vote for everyone on the list? Do you want me to subtract votes from Kemp and Gabriel?
I agree Hadl has some nice stats, but once again, if you take away or lessen what he did between 1960-1964 (unfortunately, this is a fact of life with the HOF voters) its not quite as impressive..It would be like adding Hershel Walker's USFL stats to his NFL totals, which would make him a stronger candidate...As of right now, Hadl doesn't have the votes..So it seems more would disagree with his addition rather than agree..Me personally I don't think he will ever get a shot...Conerly is really the only Senior QB out there I can believe might get a sniff..That is until Stabler and Ken Anderson become Senior candidates in the near future...I'm pretty happy with how the set is rounding out, and I think we "got it right" on 99% of these guys...I've said my peace on Marshall, but I can't argue that the senior committee has continued to recognized him recently and it's not out of the question that he could get in.
Anyone who doesn't get the vote now is always open to being added later..This is going to be a very fluid set, so feel free to request the addition of Hadl or anyone else you feel fits the mold and PSA will send a poll to whoever is collecting the set.
Once this years Senior Semi-finalists are determined (July/Aug), I will request anyone who is on that list to be added to the set..Everyone who has been a Senior Semi-finalist the last 3 years was up for voting, and all except these guys below have the votes:
John Hadl (2006 Semi-finalist) Dick LeBeau (2006 Semi-finalist) Pete Retzlaff (2006 Semi-finalist)
None of the 3 above were Semi-finalists in 2005 or 2007...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hmm. I guess the only knock I can see on Hadl from those stats (having never seen him play) is that his completion percentage was in the 40% for most of his career and if I'm reading that right, his INT were higher than his TD count in 12 of his 16 seasons. He also led the league during the AFL from the looks of it, I was under the impression those stats were not considered.
Again, never saw the guy play and strictly looking at his stats, I don't see him as HOF'er.
Question on Tyrer too, wasn't he the guy that offed his entire family? Or am I thinking of someone else? I'm just thinking, if OJ (having not been convicted) would not get in had it occurred before his enshrinement, why would Tyrer?
On a side note about Jim Marshall, he recently had his cocaine convictions expunged from his record. The guy was a hell of an athlete (and like another poster said, being third best compared to Page and Eller isn't too bad), but he also had his vice's. I think he's about 73 now, still an enormous man too. Does he even get a sniff? I've always liked the names from the "named" defenses of the '70's. You don't get that anymore.
I like all the guys that are "in" so far, except I have to be honest. I've never heard of Pat Fischer or Rich Jackson. I suppose I should go look them up, they've gotten some votes.
That's one of the great things about this set is that you get to learn about guys you may never have heard of and you can come to appreciate them. One of the reasons I actually enjoyed opening my box of 91 Enor HOF cards was that it had the Canton plaque text on the back of the card. Having never been to Canton yet (though a trip in 08 to see CC and maybe Tingelhoff go in, might be in order.
One other note, after having just read Jasons latest post... I think if they've been a senior finalist in the last couple of years, then they probably deserve to be in the set. That's a pretty good "sniff" by the HOF committee, so having them in there can't hurt. So I guess that means I'll put in a vote for Hadl, Retzlaff and LeBeau.
You know what else I just realized... Once I'm finished with my All Time Team Sets, this will be a great list for me to figure out who I can and should not sell from those sets once they are retired. I was always intending to finish those sets then sell off all the "No chance at the HOF" cards. This makes it easy.
<< <i>One other note, after having just read Jasons latest post... I think if they've been a senior finalist in the last couple of years, then they probably deserve to be in the set. That's a pretty good "sniff" by the HOF committee, so having them in there can't hurt. So I guess that means I'll put in a vote for Hadl, Retzlaff and LeBeau.
You know what else I just realized... Once I'm finished with my All Time Team Sets, this will be a great list for me to figure out who I can and should not sell from those sets once they are retired. I was always intending to finish those sets then sell off all the "No chance at the HOF" cards. This makes it easy. >>
Josh, I haven't counted any votes for you yet...Are those 3 the only guys you want to vote for?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Charlie Conerly John Hadl Jack Kemp John Brodie Roman Gabriel
Didn't you vote for everyone on the list? Do you want me to subtract votes from Kemp and Gabriel?
I agree Hadl has some nice stats, but once again, if you take away or lessen what he did between 1960-1964 (unfortunately, this is a fact of life with the HOF voters) its not quite as impressive..It would be like adding Hershel Walker's USFL stats to his NFL totals, which would make him a stronger candidate...As of right now, Hadl doesn't have the votes..So it seems more would disagree with his addition rather than agree..Me personally I don't think he will ever get a shot...Conerly is really the only Senior QB out there I can believe might get a sniff..That is until Stabler and Ken Anderson become Senior candidates in the near future...I'm pretty happy with how the set is rounding out, and I think we "got it right" on 99% of these guys...I've said my peace on Marshall, but I can't argue that the senior committee has continued to recognized him recently and it's not out of the question that he could get in.
Anyone who doesn't get the vote now is always open to being added later..This is going to be a very fluid set, so feel free to request the addition of Hadl or anyone else you feel fits the mold and PSA will send a poll to whoever is collecting the set.
Once this years Senior Semi-finalists are determined (July/Aug), I will request anyone who is on that list to be added to the set..Everyone who has been a Senior Semi-finalist the last 3 years was up for voting, and all except these guys below have the votes:
John Hadl (2006 Semi-finalist) Dick LeBeau (2006 Semi-finalist) Pete Retzlaff (2006 Semi-finalist)
None of the 3 above were Semi-finalists in 2005 or 2007...
Jason >>
Jason,
Take away my vote for Kemp. I'm confused as to why he was a 7 time pro bowler....the stats for Hadl and Meredith were better in my opinion....
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
Take away my vote for Kemp. I'm confused as to why he was a 7 time pro bowler....the stats for Hadl and Meredith were better in my opinion....
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Kemp was also an AFL MVP...Stats don't always tell the whole story...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Be aware this site has quite a few inaccuracies...Mainly when it comes to "Pro Bowls"..Also missing alot of info..Stats prior to 1950..Playoff stats prior to 1967...But is good for a quick peek at stats of the modern guys...But they have missed some Pro Bowls.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jack Kemp (Occidental College) won two AFL Western Division championships with the Los Angeles/San Diego Chargers, and played in the first two AFL Championship games in 1960 and 1961, before being picked up by the Bills. He led Buffalo to three straight Eastern Division titles and two American Football League championships, in 1964 and 1965, throwing to receivers Elbert Dubenion and Ernie Warlick. Kemp was the first 3,000 yard passer in the American Football League (1960, 14-game schedule) and the league's Most Valuable Player in 1965. He had the most career passes attempted, most completions and most yards gained passing in the history of the American Football League, although he sat out 1968 with an injury. Jack Kemp was an American Football League All-Star six consecutive years and for seven of the league's ten years, and the only AFL quarterback to be a starter in five AFL Championship Games. Kemp co-founded the American Football League Players Association and was elected its president five times. He was one of only twenty players who were in the American Football League for its entire ten-year existence. Kemp has been selected by the NCAA during its centennial celebration as one of America's '100 Most Influential Student-Athletes'.
John Hadl---After playing halfback on both offense and defense at the University of Kansas as a sophomore, John Hadl played quarterback for his last two years at Kansas, and was selected as the school's Player of the Century. He was an All-American at running back in 1960 and at quarterback in 1961, and is a member of the College Football Hall of Fame. The 6-foot-1, 210-pounder joined the American Football League's Chargers in 1962. He shared quarterbacking duties until 1966, when he became San Diego's starting quarterback, and averaged over 3,000 yards and 23 tds per (14-game) season for the next four years, as part of a virtually unstoppable combination with Lance Alworth. He was the American Football League's leading passer in 1965 and 1968. Hadl was an AFL All-Star in 1964, 1965, 1968 and in 1969, when he was the AFL All-Star Game's Most Valuable Player. He is the third leading passer in league history, behind Hall of Famers Jack Kemp and George Blanda.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I was going to abstain from voting on the senior committee guys because of my lack of ignorance on most of them. Based on what I know of the names that have "made the list" already, I am for all of them. I was lamenting Tyrer and Marshall out loud and was debating the inclusion of Hadl. Then renegged on him after reading your post, which wasn't there when I started my post, but was there after I had finished.
So to answer your question, there is nobody I would vote for that hasn't already made the list. Clear as mud? lol
<< <i>Jack Kemp (Occidental College) won two AFL Western Division championships with the Los Angeles/San Diego Chargers, and played in the first two AFL Championship games in 1960 and 1961, before being picked up by the Bills. He led Buffalo to three straight Eastern Division titles and two American Football League championships, in 1964 and 1965, throwing to receivers Elbert Dubenion and Ernie Warlick. Kemp was the first 3,000 yard passer in the American Football League (1960, 14-game schedule) and the league's Most Valuable Player in 1965. He had the most career passes attempted, most completions and most yards gained passing in the history of the American Football League, although he sat out 1968 with an injury. Jack Kemp was an American Football League All-Star six consecutive years and for seven of the league's ten years, and the only AFL quarterback to be a starter in five AFL Championship Games. Kemp co-founded the American Football League Players Association and was elected its president five times. He was one of only twenty players who were in the American Football League for its entire ten-year existence. Kemp has been selected by the NCAA during its centennial celebration as one of America's '100 Most Influential Student-Athletes'.
John Hadl---After playing halfback on both offense and defense at the University of Kansas as a sophomore, John Hadl played quarterback for his last two years at Kansas, and was selected as the school's Player of the Century. He was an All-American at running back in 1960 and at quarterback in 1961, and is a member of the College Football Hall of Fame. The 6-foot-1, 210-pounder joined the American Football League's Chargers in 1962. He shared quarterbacking duties until 1966, when he became San Diego's starting quarterback, and averaged over 3,000 yards and 23 tds per (14-game) season for the next four years, as part of a virtually unstoppable combination with Lance Alworth. He was the American Football League's leading passer in 1965 and 1968. Hadl was an AFL All-Star in 1964, 1965, 1968 and in 1969, when he was the AFL All-Star Game's Most Valuable Player. He is the third leading passer in league history, behind Hall of Famers Jack Kemp and George Blanda. >>
Sorry Jason, some of the stuff you quoted here is not accurate. The first AFL QB to pass for over 3000 yards in a seaon was Blanda in 1961. In fact he missed two games that year and only played in 12, yet still threw for 3330 yards and 36 TD's which was the professional football mark until passed by Marino in '84 and in a 16 game season. Blanda averaged 3 td's passes per game!
The career passing marks he holds were in a large part due to the fact he played 10 full years in the league. Namath had nearly as many stats in every category in 5 years. Dawson had 182 TD's in 8 years, Hadl had 142 TD passes in 8 years which included some time as a back up to Kemp. Kemp 114 TD's in 10 years just as a comparison.
Plus the QB rankings in the AFL, according to the 1970 TSN AFL history book, show Kemp ranked 9th all-time. They base their ranking on completion pct. only with a minimum number of attempts. Kemp's was terrible at 46.7. He also threw for 114 TD's in 3055 attempts and had 181 int's., Avg. gain 6.92. In other words hardly stellar. I'll give you the fact they he was the starting QB in 5 AFL championship games. His record was 2-3 in those games. His career playoff line looks like this: 139 att, 68 comp., 48.9 %, 993 yards, 2 TD's, 9 INT's, 1 rushing TD, 7.14 AVG Gain.. While making it to the championship match for 5 out of the 10 years the league existed was great, but his performance in those games was not. Buffalo won their two Championships with Kemp at the helm due to great defense and Cookie Gilchrist's running the ball. By the way, San Diego traded him to Buffalo to make room for a better QB. That being John Hadl.
Hadl put together some nice numbers from 1964 to 1973. His last years with Houston and the Packers really lowered his overall reputation.
Finally, what ranking method is used to rank these AFL QB's?
Len Dawson is head and shoulders above anyone in AFL history. Above Blanda, and way, way above Kemp.
In fact I think Dawson got snubbed being the first team All-AFL QB too. They gave that to Namath.
Comments
As for Tyrer's situation, it seems more tragic and horrible than anything else. Judging by the info earlier in the thread, he was troubled much like Andre Waters or maybe Mike Webster, rather than a really bad person. That's no comfort to those affected by his actions, really, but it puts things in better perspective, at least for me.
<< <i>Upstanding citizens? Not necessarily. Not violent criminals? Yeah, I kind of prefer that, myself.
As for Tyrer's situation, it seems more tragic and horrible than anything else. Judging by the info earlier in the thread, he was troubled much like Andre Waters or maybe Mike Webster, rather than a really bad person. That's no comfort to those affected by his actions, really, but it puts things in better perspective, at least for me. >>
I agree w/ you that it was more on the side of tragic/horrible than Tyrer being a cold blooded murderer but the fact still remains that he murdered his wife and then shot himself.
Let me ask a different question, if O.J. had killed (or been accused of killing) his ex-wife and Ronald Goldman before being inducted in the HOF, would he still be enshrined in the HOF today?
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
1. Is Art Powell's rookie 1961 Topps or was a 1961 Fleer card made of him?
2. What is Billy Howton's rc? Is it 1955 Bowman?
3. Did anyone ever consider Charley Hennigan? His career stats were impressive:
+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1960 hou | 11 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 44 722 16.4 6 |
| 1961 hou | 14 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 82 1746 21.3 12 |
| 1962 hou | 14 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 54 867 16.1 8 |
| 1963 hou | 14 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 61 1051 17.2 10 |
| 1964 hou | 14 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 101 1546 15.3 8 |
| 1965 hou | 14 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 41 578 14.1 4 |
| 1966 hou | 14 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 27 313 11.6 3 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 95 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 410 6823 16.6 51 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
Seasons among the league's top 10
Receptions: 1961-2*, 1962-6*, 1963-6t*, 1964-1*, 1965-8*
Receiving yards: 1960-7*, 1961-1*, 1962-5*, 1963-4*, 1964-1*
Receiving TDs: 1960-6t*, 1961-2*, 1962-3t*, 1963-3t*, 1964-6t*
Yards from scrimmage: 1961-1*, 1963-9*, 1964-1*
Rush/Receive TDs: 1961-3t*, 1962-6t*, 1963-4t*, 1964-7t*
* - AFL
Plus a 5 time Pro Bowler to boot (consecutive 1961 to 1965)
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>3 more questions:
1. Is Art Powell's rookie 1961 Topps or was a 1961 Fleer card made of him?
2. What is Billy Howton's rc? Is it 1955 Bowman?
3. Did anyone ever consider Charley Hennigan? His career stats were impressive:
+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1960 hou | 11 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 44 722 16.4 6 |
| 1961 hou | 14 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 82 1746 21.3 12 |
| 1962 hou | 14 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 54 867 16.1 8 |
| 1963 hou | 14 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 61 1051 17.2 10 |
| 1964 hou | 14 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 101 1546 15.3 8 |
| 1965 hou | 14 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 41 578 14.1 4 |
| 1966 hou | 14 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 27 313 11.6 3 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 95 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 410 6823 16.6 51 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
Seasons among the league's top 10
Receptions: 1961-2*, 1962-6*, 1963-6t*, 1964-1*, 1965-8*
Receiving yards: 1960-7*, 1961-1*, 1962-5*, 1963-4*, 1964-1*
Receiving TDs: 1960-6t*, 1961-2*, 1962-3t*, 1963-3t*, 1964-6t*
Yards from scrimmage: 1961-1*, 1963-9*, 1964-1*
Rush/Receive TDs: 1961-3t*, 1962-6t*, 1963-4t*, 1964-7t*
* - AFL
Plus a 5 time Pro Bowler to boot (consecutive 1961 to 1965)
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I will add Hennigan to the list...The downside to him is that he got his stats in the early AFL years, which are considered by many about the same as USFL or CFL stats..Yes, they do count, but it seems like the voters consider anything pre-1965 AFL almost meaningless...And that's when he got most of his stats. He was a senior nominee a few years ago, but wasn't even nominated last year...(FYI 74 others were)..If he isn't in the top 74 Senior candidates, I wouldn't think he has any chance....
Greg, I still don't have your YES/NO votes for the senior list..Let us know who you think belongs and who doesnt...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I will give a blanket yes to all of the players. I trust the Senior Committee (and your judgement) that the list includes players who deserve consideration (which is what we're after). There will likely be stragglers here and there that we won't identify....but that should be the exception rather than the rule.
Another player that I think will get in one day is Duke Slater - but he never had a card made of him.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Looks like 26 total players. I will let the voting run throughout the weekend, and lock it down Monday and submit to Cosetta.
The Terrell Davis voting is now closed, and based on the clear majority vote, we will go with the SP as his RC in the set. If anyone is interested in a PSA 10 Select Certified TD RC, I have one for sale..lol
I will also request this set and send in the spreadsheet on Monday.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I vote to keep the senior list as is. In my opinion...the larger the pool the better.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Jason,
I vote to keep the senior list as is. In my opinion...the larger the pool the better.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I know..I added a vote to every player on the list for you...But its going to be majority rule..Most of us don't want every one of these players on the set, because frankly many of them have zero chance..I voted for like 27 of them.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
No offense - but I think the voting is too biased...or even better put it's not taking into account the merits of the players stats (as most of us never saw these players on the field). In my opinion, the best way to determine the list is to tally up all the senior finalists over the past 20 to 25 years and determine what players have the most votes by position. From there, set a cutoff and only include the players above the cutoff.
I'm saying this because based on the votes below, only 1 QB, 1 RB, 0 TE, ect... would be included which I think is misleading. I agree what you say about early AFL players but how can we ignore if these players have been senior finalists in the past. Maybe one day (soon) there will be a reversal (revival if you must) in thinking and the early AFL stats will be taken more serious. Let's face it, many of the early players played in leagues that are now disfunct...for instance Otto Graham. Am I correct is assuming that a portion of his early stats occurred in the AAFC? Just food for thought.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Jason,
No offense - but I think the voting is too biased...or even better put it's not taking into account the merits of the players stats (as most of us never saw these players on the field). In my opinion, the best way to determine the list is to tally up all the senior finalists over the past 20 to 25 years and determine what players have the most votes by position. From there, set a cutoff and only include the players above the cutoff.
I'm saying this because based on the votes below, only 1 QB, 1 RB, 0 TE, ect... would be included which I think is misleading. I agree what you say about early AFL players but how can we ignore if these players have been senior finalists in the past. Maybe one day (soon) there will be a reversal (revival if you must) in thinking and the early AFL stats will be taken more serious. Let's face it, many of the early players played in leagues that are now disfunct...for instance Otto Graham. Am I correct is assuming that a portion of his early stats occurred in the AAFC? Just food for thought.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg, the Senior SEMI-Finalists are not released publically....If you can find those lists for the past 20-25 years then I am down with your plan...I can access the past 3 years...Just adding the different senior SEMI-finalists from the past 3 years gives you 23 of the guys on my initial list of 50...Only 2 Seniors go in every year...It would take 14 years if it was each of those players...I want the set to be a realistic example of Senior candidates who could be elected..Not a roll call of 100+ players when 80% of which would really not have a chance...To clarify, the senior committee works much like the modern candidate voting...They choose from a list of Senior Candidate nominees (typically 65-80) and narrow that list to 17 (15 prior to 2007 vote) senior semi-finalists. From that list, they choose 2 Senior FINALISTS who will be voted on by the HOF voters along with the 15 modern candidates for election to the HOF.
As far as the QB, RBs go, the HOF committees typically give those type players very hard looks as modern candidates. How many QBs, RBs have been elected as Senior candidates in the past 20 years? Benny Friedman and Leroy Kelly..Thats it...Like I said, these are guys that are usually not overlooked because of the position they play.
Regardless, we all have different ideas as to what this set should be. The best way I know to determine this is via popular vote..Once the set is added and you feel there are some players who are missing, you will be free to send a request to PSA who will poll the rest of the collectors for a Yes/No to the addition...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here are his rankings:
1, TE Charlie Sanders, Lions; 2, G Gene Hickerson, Browns; 3, WR Bob Hayes, Cowboys; 4, C Mick Tingelhoff, Vikings; 5, OT Jim Tyrer, Chiefs.
6, S Johnny Robinson, Chiefs; 7, S Cliff Harris, Cowboys; 8, G Ed Budde, Chiefs; 9, LB Chuck Howley, Cowboys; 10, Billy Wilson, 49ers.
11, LB Maxie Baughan, Eagles; 12, LB Chris Hanburger, Redskins; 13, OT Winston Hill, Jets; 14, L.C. Greenwood, Steelers; 15, LB Les Richter, Rams.
16, LB Tommy Nobis, Falcons; 17, LB Joe Fortunato, Bears; 18, DE Claude Humphrey; 19, OT Dick Stanfel, Lions; 20, CB Emmitt Thomas, Chiefs.
21, LB Lee Roy Jordan, Cowboys; 22, S Jake Scott, Dolphins; 23, HB Floyd Little, Broncos; 24, TE Pete Retzlaff, Eagles; 25, CB Dick LeBeau, Lions.
26, G Gale Gillingham, Packers; 27, TE Fred Arbanas, Chiefs; 28, DT Alex Karras, Lions; 29, G Jerry Kramer, Packers; 30, LB Dave Robinson, Packers.
31, CB Pat Fischer, Redskins; 32, WR Otis Taylor, Chiefs
We could go strictly with this list of 32 if everyone wants to...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Every year one Seniors candidate comes up for enshrinement, along with the group of moderns. The Seniors candidate who is presented is chosen from a list of 15, which has been boiled down from a preliminary roster of 68 names. I have just gone through the initial 68 and chosen my 15 Seniors nominees. So have the other eight members of the Seniors Committee.
On Aug. 14, five of us will sit down in Canton, Ohio, to go over the 15 names that have received the most votes and we'll choose one Seniors candidate to present to the full group of selectors -- 38, I believe at this juncture -- at the meeting in January.
That's the easy part. Now here comes the complicated portion: What determines a Seniors candidate? The current rule, or at least it is current if you are reading this column on Friday, Aug. 1 -- it will most likely change the following day -- states that 70 percent of a Senior's career had to take place 25 or more years ago. This seems like a simple mathematical proposition, but it's not. It has fuzzled some of the great brains in pro football, and it's something I've never been able to remember. Is it 20 years and 75 percent, or 25 and 75, or what? And do you count back from last season or do you include this current one?
So the Hall of Fame people have ruled that this formula is too complicated, and they've decided to simplify it by merely saying that you're a Senior if your career ended 25 or more years ago, never mind the percentages. So if you played until 1978, you're a Senior. If you made it until 1979, you're not. You're still a modern candidate. On Saturday, Aug. 2, the Hall's Board of Directors will vote this proposition in, Horrigan assured me.
How do I feel about this? Mixed reactions. The new formula is certainly easier to understand, but it hits me personally because it will affect the guy for whom I'll be pushing hardest, former Dallas free safety Cliff Harris.
I've been at quite a few of these five-man Seniors Committee meetings. Sometimes I've had pretty good luck in gathering support for a guy I was really passionate about, such as 49ers linebacker Dave Wilcox. All you need is two more votes to swing the nominee you want. I feel I have a decent shot with Harris, who is the best free safety I've ever seen -- of a certain type. I class free safeties into two categories (and I've written this many times): the range type -- Willie Wood and Larry Wilson are my favorites in that style; and the killer-type, or the "obstructionist" as Al Davis likes to term it. Jack Tatum was the hardest hitter among that bunch, Harris was a guided missile who had originally come up as a cornerback and had the coverage skills and instincts Tatum lacked. Harris' all-around effectiveness, plus his feared hitting, made him the best killer-type free safety who ever lived, at least in my eyes.
But it's been a tough sell to the selectors at large, and I've never been able to swing enough votes for him. Harris' last year was 1979. Under the current rules he'd be a Senior. Under the new ones, which are expected to go into effect on Aug. 2, he'll be a modern candidate. Granted, he'd be a Senior next year, but the five-man committee is a rotating thing, and the chances are that I won't be on it a year from now. Two years from now? Who knows where any of us will be in two years?
There's still one hope, though. When the Board meets this Saturday, it will also consider my long-standing proposal that two Seniors candidates, not one, come up for enshrinement every year.
"Is anyone taking it seriously? Is anyone really in my corner?" I asked Horrigan.
"Lots of people," he said. "It's got a shot."
Well, I've had my heart broken too many times to really count on my proposal going through. If it happens, it'll be a real mitzvah, as they say in the old country. If not, I'll retreat to my bunker, gather my ammo and get ready to launch another assault. In the meantime, just for those of you out there who like names, here are the 68 preliminary candidates, plus the 15 I voted for.
QUARTERBACKS: Frankie Albert, Charlie Conerly, Benny Friedman, John Hadl, Tobin Rote.
The name I checked off was Friedman's. He'll be my fallback candidate to push if Harris is truly dropped from the Seniors pool. Friedman was the greatest passer in the league's early years, the 1920s and '30s. He was a pioneer, and isn't that what the Hall of Fame is all about? Innovation? Leaving your mark on the game? He was passed over for many years. He was always a yes-but ... yes, he was great, but others were more deserving. People such as Friedman would benefit most from a two-candidate system. Now just because I didn't choose some other people, don't think that I didn't feel they were worthy. It's just that 15 names out of such a great roster of 68 isn't a lot.
RUNNING BACKS: Larry Brown, Beattie Feathers, Willie Galimore, Marshall Goldberg, Tony Latone, Floyd Little, Fritz Pollard, Glenn Presnell.
Little, Pollard and Presnell were the names I checked off. Little was my man based on pure talent. Pollard was a black player and coach in the 1920s -- a true pioneer facing incredibly tough odds. Presnell was a run-pass single-wing tailback who had a short career. I used to hear Weeb Ewbank talk about Presnell all the time. I just wanted to get his name in there. Feathers' name does not belong on this list. He had one significant year, his rookie season of 1934, when he rushed for 1,004 yards and an 8.4 average. The rest of his career was so mediocre that many people suspect that his big rookie numbers were a fluke and punt and kick return yardage was inadvertently mixed in. Galimore, who died tragically as at age 29, got off some of the most incredible runs I'd ever seen. There just weren't enough of them. Latone has the distinction of being the only person to have come up on a Hall of Fame list whom I'd never heard of. I had to look him up. Played for Pottstown, Boston and Providence from 1925-30. Scored 26 TDs. Now you know as much about Tony Latone as I do.
ENDS, WIDE RECEIVERS, TIGHT ENDS: Gino Cappelletti, Gary Collins, Bob Hayes, Ron Kramer, Art Powell, Pete Retzlaff, Kyle Rote, Charlie Sanders, Mac Speedie, Otis Taylor.
Now do you understand why we need to present two people every year instead of one? Just look at this list. I'd be very happy going with Hayes, or working on his behalf. Ditto Speedie and Taylor. Theses are the three names I checked off, incidentally. All these great players ... narrowing the list down is just brutal.
OFFENSIVE LINEMEN: Bob Brown, Ed Budde, Ken Gray, Gene Hickerson, Jerry Kramer, Lou Rymkus, Rich Saul, Dick Stanfel, Walt Sweeney, Bob Talamini, Fuzzy Thurston, Mick Tingelhoff, Al Wistert, Rayfield Wright.
There are at least half a dozen players here whom I feel should already have been enshrined. I'm overwhelmed by this mass of names, so overwhelmed that I didn't check off any of them. They must come later, after Harris and Friedman and Hayes and a few others. Sorry, but you can't bring everyone up.
Actually two of them were Seniors candidates at one time, and both were turned down by the main body of selectors, which is an awfully rough thing. Kramer was dinged by selectors, and I still don't know why ... too much publicity after his book, Instant Replay, I guess, although that shouldn't be a factor.
Stanfel also was presented on one occasion. I was on the Seniors Committee that chose him. I didn't vote for him. One of the consultants at our committee meeting, a Hall of Famer who is called upon to act as an advisor, was Bob St. Clair, the former 49ers tackle. He was asked to rate the candidates on a scale of one to 10 points. He gave out sixes and sevens as people's names came up. When Stanfel was mentioned he went absolutely nuts. "In a 10-point system, he'd be an 11," St. Clair said. Absolutely the best ever," etc. etc. Not many people knew it, but when I was at Stanford we played against the University of San Francisco one year and Stanfel was on that team, and so was St. Clair, who'd been his roommate. And after that Seniors Committee meeting, when we were walking back to our cars after St. Clair had swung the election for his buddy, I said to him, "You ought to be a politician." "I am," he said. "I'm mayor of Hayward., Calif."
DEFENSIVE LINEMEN: Gene Brito, Roger Brown, Carl Eller, Bill Glass, Rich Jackson, Alex Karras, Gene Lipscomb, Jim Marshall, Dick Modzelewski, Tom Sestak, Ed Sprinkle.
Again, an embarrassment of riches. I voted for Jackson, one of, if not the best DE I've seen; Karras, whose abrasive personality has, I believe, gotten him in bad with some selectors through the years; and Sestak, an underrated rock on the great Buffalo lines of the 1960s. Lipscomb will also get a check mark if Harris' name goes off the list.
LINEBACKERS: Chris Hanburger, E.J. Holub, Chuck Howley, Lee Roy Jordan, Walt Michaels, Tommy Nobis, Les Richter, Dave Robinson.
My votes -- Jordan and Howley, great coverage and range LBs who were also terrific tacklers on those fine Cowboys Doomsday Defenses, and Robinson, one of the first of the truly great size and speed OLBs in history.
DEFENSIVE BACKS: Dick Anderson, Erich Barnes, Jack Butler, Bobby Dillon, Pat Fischer, Cliff Harris, Dick LeBeau, Johnny Robinson.
Harris gets the check mark. I feel sick about leaving off Butler, one of the all-time great ballhawks, or one-eyed Bobby Dillon. It's a terrible problem, all these fine names and so few spots open.
KICKERS/PUNTERS: Tommy Davis.
My man. The best punter I've ever seen. He'll only have a chance if there's a two-Seniors system, however, and even then his selection will be iffy.
COACHES/CONTRIBUTORS: Blanton Collier, John Madden, Ed (Dutch) Sternaman.
Worthy candidates, sure, but I'm afraid I didn't check any of them off. Not this year, not after coaches have been the Seniors candidates the last two seasons (George Allen followed by Hank Stram). Coaches and owners, etc. should not compete with players for positions for a place in the Hall. There should be a different door.
OK, I know this list of mine will draw hundreds of angry responses -- the people I've omitted, etc. All of those gripes will be justified. But do this yourself. Write down all 68 names, choose 15, and just look at the roster of greatness you've neglected. It's tragic, actually.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
MY VOTES
DB
Parrish
Fischer
LB
Hanburger
Nobis
Howley
DL
Marshall
Greenwood
OL
Tinglehoff
Stanfel
TE
Smith
RB,S
Little
Brown
WR
Otis Taylor
QB
Conerly
Gabriel
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
QBs
Charlie Conerly-7**
John Hadl-2
Jack Kemp-2
John Brodie-2
Roman Gabriel-3
RBs
Larry Brown-3
Beattie Feathers-2
Willie Galimore-2
Floyd Little-8**
Paul Lowe-2
Clem Daniels-2
Chuck Foreman-2
Don Perkins-2
Alan Ameche-2
'Deacon' Dan Towler-2
WRs
Bob Hayes-8**
Billy Howton-2
Art Powell-2
Pete Retzlaff-3
Del Shofner-3
Mac Speedie-8**
Otis Taylor-8**
Billy Wilson-8**
Max McGee-2
Ken Kavanaugh-2
Gino Cappelletti-2
Gary Collins-2
Charley Hennigan-1
TE
Jerry Smith-3
Bob Tucker-2
Lionel Taylor-2
Fred Arbanas-1
OL
Ed Budde-3
Ken Gray-2
Winston Hill-3
Jerry Kramer-8**
John Niland-2
Dick Stanfel-8**
Walt Sweeney-4
Mick Tingelhoff-9**
Fuzzy Thurston-2
Jim Tyrer-6**
Grady Alderman-2
Dick Schafrath-2
Gale Gillingham-3
Len Hauss-2
George Kunz-2
Ray Wietecha-2
Jim Ray Smith-2
Ralph Neely-2
Bucko Kilroy-2
DLs
Gene Brito-2
Curley Culp-2
L.C. Greenwood-9**
Claude Humphrey-8**
Rich Jackson-6**
Alex Karras-7**
Gene Lipscomb-6**
Jim Marshall-5
Jerry Mays-2
Tom Sestak-2
Cedric Hardman-2
Bill Stanfill-2
LBs
Maxie Baughan-3
Chris Hanburger-9**
E.J. Holub-2
Chuck Howley-9**
Lee Roy Jordan-8**
Tommy Nobis-9**
Les Richter-4
Dave Robinson-8**
Andy Russell-6**
Bill Bergey-2
Mike Stratton-2
Isiah Robertson-2
Joe Fortunato-1
DBs
Dick Anderson-2
Jack Butler-6**
Pat Fischer-8**
Cliff Harris-9**
Lemar Parrish-6**
Johnny Robinson-7**
Bob Boyd-2
Bobby Dillion-2
Jake Scott-3
Erich Barnes-2
Jimmy Patton-2
Dave Grayson-2
Dick LeBeau-1
Emmitt Thomas-1
K/P
Jim Bakken-3
Jerrel Wilson-2
Votes counted: jasp24, BillsGridironGreats, davemri, mikescardcloset, JLoo, bcd33, FavreFan1971, gregm13, SKINSFAN, Rick Gosselin (lol)
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
First, SP should be the card for Terrell Davis darn I've got the Select Certified.
Second, I am concerned that using the voting alone will limit the set to those with name recognition not those most likely to be elected the two do not go hand-in-hand.
That being said, the voting looks good.
I do have a question -
How many players would you have if you took the two lists you cited and included the players who appeared on both lists and added those players to the top vote getters.
Marc.
Marc.
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
**Mick Tingelhoff
**Chuck Howley
**Claude Humphrey
**Cliff Harris
**Dave Robinson
**L.C. Greenwood
**Bob Hayes
**Lee Roy Jordan
**Tommy Nobis
**Jim Marshall
All of these guys have been very close to the top in the voting the past 3 years...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Ok, just got done talking to a buddy of mine with what I believe to be pretty solid info on the senior voting over the past 3 years...Basically what I'm saying is, he knows who has been closest. I can say with 99% confidence (votes can always change..lol), that the 2 Senior finalists for 2008 will come from this group:
**Mick Tingelhoff
**Chuck Howley
**Claude Humphrey
**Cliff Harris
**Dave Robinson
**L.C. Greenwood
**Bob Hayes
**Lee Roy Jordan
**Tommy Nobis
**Jim Marshall
All of these guys have been very close to the top in the voting the past 3 years...
Jason >>
I have also heard from John Mclain who is on the senior committe that Bob Hayes was a very close #3 last year.
<< <i>Shouldn't Marshall be added to our set since his is in that list? >>
Jim Marshall is one vote short in our message board poll..I can add a vote for you if you like Dave and that will put him at 6..Personally, I don;t think he's worthy...Does a guy deserve to go into the HOF just because he played forever? Give him a 12 year career instead of 20 and he wouldn't even be worth mentioning...His claim to fame was longevity and running that fumble back the wrong way...He was the 3rd best DL on his OWN TEAM...lol..Would be the first "3rd best" on his own team at a position to make the HOF...But based on what I've been told, he's been in the close the last 3 years...
Brain, you are absolutely correct on Hayes..Which surprised me since he was a Senior finalist in 2004 and didn't get the 80% vote needed for induction..I would think he wouldn't even be a consideration for 10 years or so...He was also very close in 2005 and 2006...I have to think, based on the support he has from many of the voters, that he will eventually get in...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Anyone else watching the PSA 8 Hayes getting ready to end?? >>
What Hayes??? That's not his rookie..You should be looking for the 63 Philly..Nothing to see here, move along...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The good news is that I seem to be doing well buying raw and submitting to fund my addiction...
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>LOL..I won't be bidding. I'm running low in my paypal account. I need to wait til I get my Shaw 7, Hickerson 8, and Chicle Griffith 5 back from PSA. This HOF set has become a strong addiction to me and I need to curb my spending a little bit....
The good news is that I seem to be doing well buying raw and submitting to fund my addiction...
Dave >>
You won't be bidding, but now 5 others who maybe missed the auction will...Come on we got to keep these football rookies under the radar for as long as we can...Ok, so maybe its a bit late for that, but I can dream can't I??lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>You won't be bidding, but now 5 others who maybe missed the auction will...Come on we got to keep these football rookies under the radar for as long as we can...Ok, so maybe its a bit late for that, but I can dream can't I??lol >>
sorry... Maybe we are the only losers playing with our football cards on a saturday night.
Hey Jason, what is the going price for a nice psa 5 dutch clark??
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Jim Marshall is one vote short in our message board poll..I can add a vote for you if you like Dave and that will put him at 6. [...] He was the 3rd best DL on his OWN TEAM... >>
Considering the other two guys are Page and Eller, you're kind of praising him with faint damns.
If this voting is open to everybody reading the thread and not just peopple actively compiling this set, count me in for Jim.
<< <i>Let me ask a different question, if O.J. had killed (or been accused of killing) his ex-wife and Ronald Goldman before being inducted in the HOF, would he still be enshrined in the HOF today?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I have a really hard time imagining that he would. I know people are instructed now to ignore character issues, but that's very different than being a crackhead like LT. Even though I think they're both violent scumbags, even Irvin and Ray Lewis' situations are murkier than that one. Good question.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jim Marshall is one vote short in our message board poll..I can add a vote for you if you like Dave and that will put him at 6. [...] He was the 3rd best DL on his OWN TEAM... >>
Considering the other two guys are Page and Eller, you're kind of praising him with faint damns.
If this voting is open to everybody reading the thread and not just peopple actively compiling this set, count me in for Jim.
<< <i>Let me ask a different question, if O.J. had killed (or been accused of killing) his ex-wife and Ronald Goldman before being inducted in the HOF, would he still be enshrined in the HOF today?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
I have a really hard time imagining that he would. I know people are instructed now to ignore character issues, but that's very different than being a crackhead like LT. Even though I think they're both violent scumbags, even Irvin and Ray Lewis' situations are murkier than that one. Good question. >>
Voting is open for everyone..Is Marshall the only guy you want to vote for and you think belongs? 2 Pro Bowls in 20 years? Never once was a 1st team All-Pro...To me, that just doesn't say "greatness" or "dominance"...Based on the attention the 2 guys he played beside got from the Offense, why wasn't this guy more dominant? I've watched him on film, and from everything I saw he was a good player, but not a HOFer..If he ever gets in it will be for the same reason that George Blanda and Jackie Slater got in...All good players who became great because they played forever...
Anyway, let me know who else you'd like to vote for...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>You won't be bidding, but now 5 others who maybe missed the auction will...Come on we got to keep these football rookies under the radar for as long as we can...Ok, so maybe its a bit late for that, but I can dream can't I??lol >>
sorry... Maybe we are the only losers playing with our football cards on a saturday night.
Hey Jason, what is the going price for a nice psa 5 dutch clark?? >>
Dave usually in the $300-$400 range, although some have sold upwards of $500 in the past..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Like I've written before, I think there are many roads to Canton. Being a key member of a dominant unit/team is one, for me. Which is why I'd like to see guys like Dave Robinson, Dwight White and L.C. Greenwood, among many others, enshrined. The "too many players from that team already" thing doesn't carry any water with me.
<< <i>
QBs
Charlie Conerly-7**
John Hadl-2
John Brodie-2
Roman Gabriel-3
RBs
Larry Brown-3
Floyd Little-8**
Paul Lowe-2
Chuck Foreman-2
WRs
Bob Hayes-8**
Billy Howton-2
Mac Speedie-8**
Otis Taylor-8**
Billy Wilson-8**
Charley Hennigan-1
TE
Jerry Smith-3
Bob Tucker-2
Lionel Taylor-2
OL
Ed Budde-3
Winston Hill-3
Jerry Kramer-8**
John Niland-2
Dick Stanfel-8**
Walt Sweeney-4
Mick Tingelhoff-9**
Fuzzy Thurston-2
Jim Tyrer-6**
Grady Alderman-2
Dick Schafrath-2
Gale Gillingham-3
Len Hauss-2
George Kunz-2
DLs
Gene Brito-2
Curley Culp-2
L.C. Greenwood-9**
Claude Humphrey-8**
Rich Jackson-6**
Alex Karras-7**
Gene Lipscomb-6**
Jim Marshall-5
Cedric Hardman-2
LBs
Maxie Baughan-3
Chris Hanburger-9**
E.J. Holub-2
Chuck Howley-9**
Lee Roy Jordan-8**
Tommy Nobis-9**
Les Richter-4
Dave Robinson-8**
Andy Russell-6**
Bill Bergey-2
Isiah Robertson-2
DBs
Dick Anderson-2
Jack Butler-6**
Pat Fischer-8**
Cliff Harris-9**
Lemar Parrish-6**
Johnny Robinson-7**
Jake Scott-3
Erich Barnes-2
Emmitt Thomas-1
K/P
Jim Bakken-3
Jerrel Wilson-2 >>
Happy to see Lemar Parrish get some love. He was special.
Rich
QBs
Charlie Conerly
John Hadl
John Brodie
Roman Gabriel
RBs
Paul Lowe
Clem Daniels
Chuck Foreman
Don Perkins
Alan Ameche
'Deacon' Dan Towler
WRs
Bob Hayes
Billy Howton
Art Powell
Del Shofner
Mac Speedie
Otis Taylor
Billy Wilson
Max McGee
Ken Kavanaugh
Gino Cappelletti
Gary Collins
TE
Jerry Smith
Bob Tucker
Lionel Taylor
OL
Ed Budde
Winston Hill
Jerry Kramer
Dick Stanfel
Mick Tingelhoff
Fuzzy Thurston
Jim Tyrer
Grady Alderman
Dick Schafrath
Gale Gillingham
Len Hauss
George Kunz
Ray Wietecha
Bucko Kilroy
DLs
Gene Brito
L.C. Greenwood
Claude Humphrey
Rich Jackson
Alex Karras
Jim Marshall
Tom Sestak
Bill Stanfill
LBs
Maxie Baughan
Chris Hanburger
Chuck Howley
Lee Roy Jordan
Tommy Nobis
Les Richter
Dave Robinson
Andy Russell
Bill Bergey
DBs
Jack Butler
Pat Fischer
Cliff Harris
Lemar Parrish
Johnny Robinson
Bobby Dillion
Jake Scott
Erich Barnes
Jimmy Patton
K/P
Jim Bakken
Jerrel Wilson
<< <i>So if the HOf put's in two seniors a year from my picks, it will take 33 years to see all these guys get enshined. I'll be 76 then! >>
We can have a drink at the old folk's home together and tell the orderlies that we made it all happen
QBs
Charlie Conerly-10**
John Hadl-4
Jack Kemp-1
John Brodie-4
Roman Gabriel-5
RBs
Larry Brown-4
Beattie Feathers-2
Willie Galimore-2
Floyd Little-10**
Paul Lowe-4
Clem Daniels-3
Chuck Foreman-4
Don Perkins-3
Alan Ameche-3
'Deacon' Dan Towler-3
WRs
Bob Hayes-11**
Billy Howton-4
Art Powell-3
Pete Retzlaff-3
Del Shofner-4
Mac Speedie-10**
Otis Taylor-11**
Billy Wilson-10**
Max McGee-3
Ken Kavanaugh-3
Gino Cappelletti-3
Gary Collins-3
Charley Hennigan-2
TE
Jerry Smith-5
Bob Tucker-4
Lionel Taylor-4
Fred Arbanas-1
OL
Ed Budde-6
Ken Gray-3
Winston Hill-5
Jerry Kramer-11**
John Niland-3
Dick Stanfel-10**
Walt Sweeney-5
Mick Tingelhoff-12**
Fuzzy Thurston-4
Jim Tyrer-9**
Grady Alderman-4
Dick Schafrath-4
Gale Gillingham-5
Len Hauss-4
George Kunz-4
Ray Wietecha-3
Jim Ray Smith-2
Ralph Neely-2
Bucko Kilroy-3
DLs
Gene Brito-4
Curley Culp-3
L.C. Greenwood-12**
Claude Humphrey-11**
Rich Jackson-8**
Alex Karras-9**
Gene Lipscomb-8**
Jim Marshall-8**
Jerry Mays-2
Tom Sestak-3
Cedric Hardman-3
Bill Stanfill-3
LBs
Maxie Baughan-5
Chris Hanburger-12**
E.J. Holub-4
Chuck Howley-12**
Lee Roy Jordan-11**
Tommy Nobis-12**
Les Richter-6
Dave Robinson-11**
Andy Russell-9**
Bill Bergey-4
Mike Stratton-2
Isiah Robertson-3
Joe Fortunato-1
DBs
Dick Anderson-3
Jack Butler-8**
Pat Fischer-10**
Cliff Harris-12**
Lemar Parrish-8**
Johnny Robinson-10**
Bob Boyd-2
Bobby Dillion-3
Jake Scott-5
Erich Barnes-4
Jimmy Patton-3
Dave Grayson-2
Dick LeBeau-1
Emmitt Thomas-2
K/P
Jim Bakken-5
Jerrel Wilson-4
Votes counted: jasp24, BillsGridironGreats, davemri, mikescardcloset, JLoo, bcd33, FavreFan1971, gregm13, SKINSFAN, Rick Gosselin (lol), GDM67, cardbender, MAD
As of now, 27 players would make the list. A few others are very close, I'll let the vote run until tomorrow morning...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My votes:
QBs
Charlie Conerly
RBs
Floyd Little
WRs
Bob Hayes
Otis Taylor
OL
Ed Budde
Ken Gray
Jerry Kramer
Mick Tingelhoff
Jim Tyrer
DLs
L.C. Greenwood
Claude Humphrey
Gene Lipscomb
Jim Marshall
LBs
Chris Hanburger
E.J. Holub
Chuck Howley
Lee Roy Jordan
Tommy Nobis
Dave Robinson
Andy Russell
DBs
Cliff Harris
Johnny Robinson
Marc.
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
Marc.
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1962 sdg | 14 | 107 260 41.2 1632 6.3 15 24 | 40 139 1 |
| 1963 sdg | 14 | 28 64 43.8 502 7.8 6 6 | 8 26 0 |
| 1964 sdg | 14 | 147 274 53.6 2157 7.9 18 15 | 20 70 1 |
| 1965 sdg | 14 | 174 348 50.0 2798 8.0 20 21 | 28 91 1 |
| 1966 sdg | 14 | 200 375 53.3 2846 7.6 23 14 | 38 95 2 |
| 1967 sdg | 14 | 217 427 50.8 3365 7.9 24 22 | 37 107 3 |
| 1968 sdg | 14 | 208 440 47.3 3473 7.9 27 32 | 23 14 2 |
| 1969 sdg | 14 | 158 324 48.8 2253 7.0 10 11 | 26 109 2 |
| 1970 sdg | 14 | 162 327 49.5 2388 7.3 22 15 | 28 188 1 |
| 1971 sdg | 14 | 233 431 54.1 3075 7.1 21 25 | 18 75 1 |
| 1972 sdg | 14 | 190 370 51.4 2449 6.6 15 26 | 22 99 1 |
| 1973 ram | 14 | 135 258 52.3 2008 7.8 22 11 | 14 5 0 |
| 1974 gnb | 8 | 89 184 48.4 1072 5.8 3 8 | 8 -3 0 |
| 1974 ram | 6 | 53 115 46.1 680 5.9 5 6 | 11 28 0 |
| 1975 gnb | 14 | 191 353 54.1 2095 5.9 6 21 | 20 47 0 |
| 1976 hou | 14 | 60 113 53.1 634 5.6 7 8 | 7 11 0 |
| 1977 hou | 14 | 11 24 45.8 76 3.2 0 3 | 3 11 1 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 224 | 2363 4687 50.4 33503 7.1 244 268 | 351 1112 16 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
Seasons among the league's top 10
Pass attempts: 1962-5*, 1964-6*, 1965-4*, 1966-4*, 1967-2*, 1968-1*, 1969-6*, 1970-9, 1971-1, 1972-3, 1974-9, 1975-4
Completions: 1962-7*, 1964-6*, 1965-3*, 1966-2*, 1967-3*, 1968-1*, 1969-6*, 1971-1, 1972-4, 1975-5
Passing yards: 1962-7*, 1964-7*, 1965-1*, 1966-2*, 1967-2*, 1968-1*, 1969-4*, 1970-7, 1971-1, 1972-4, 1973-8
Passing TDs: 1962-5*, 1964-4*, 1965-2t*, 1966-3*, 1967-3t*, 1968-1*, 1969-7t*, 1970-3t, 1971-1, 1972-9t, 1973-3
Adjusted yards per pass: 1962-7*, 1964-2*, 1965-2*, 1966-3*, 1967-3*, 1968-5*, 1969-3*, 1970-5, 1971-10, 1973-3
* - AFL
Among the league's all-time top 50
Pass attempts: 20
Completions: 33
Passing yards: 19
Passing TDs: 15
My votes for QBs are Hadl, Conerly and Brodie.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>
My votes for QBs are Hadl, Conerly and Brodie.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg, I have you down for:
Charlie Conerly
John Hadl
Jack Kemp
John Brodie
Roman Gabriel
Didn't you vote for everyone on the list? Do you want me to subtract votes from Kemp and Gabriel?
I agree Hadl has some nice stats, but once again, if you take away or lessen what he did between 1960-1964 (unfortunately, this is a fact of life with the HOF voters) its not quite as impressive..It would be like adding Hershel Walker's USFL stats to his NFL totals, which would make him a stronger candidate...As of right now, Hadl doesn't have the votes..So it seems more would disagree with his addition rather than agree..Me personally I don't think he will ever get a shot...Conerly is really the only Senior QB out there I can believe might get a sniff..That is until Stabler and Ken Anderson become Senior candidates in the near future...I'm pretty happy with how the set is rounding out, and I think we "got it right" on 99% of these guys...I've said my peace on Marshall, but I can't argue that the senior committee has continued to recognized him recently and it's not out of the question that he could get in.
Anyone who doesn't get the vote now is always open to being added later..This is going to be a very fluid set, so feel free to request the addition of Hadl or anyone else you feel fits the mold and PSA will send a poll to whoever is collecting the set.
Once this years Senior Semi-finalists are determined (July/Aug), I will request anyone who is on that list to be added to the set..Everyone who has been a Senior Semi-finalist the last 3 years was up for voting, and all except these guys below have the votes:
John Hadl (2006 Semi-finalist)
Dick LeBeau (2006 Semi-finalist)
Pete Retzlaff (2006 Semi-finalist)
None of the 3 above were Semi-finalists in 2005 or 2007...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Again, never saw the guy play and strictly looking at his stats, I don't see him as HOF'er.
Question on Tyrer too, wasn't he the guy that offed his entire family? Or am I thinking of someone else? I'm just thinking, if OJ (having not been convicted) would not get in had it occurred before his enshrinement, why would Tyrer?
On a side note about Jim Marshall, he recently had his cocaine convictions expunged from his record. The guy was a hell of an athlete (and like another poster said, being third best compared to Page and Eller isn't too bad), but he also had his vice's. I think he's about 73 now, still an enormous man too. Does he even get a sniff? I've always liked the names from the "named" defenses of the '70's. You don't get that anymore.
I like all the guys that are "in" so far, except I have to be honest. I've never heard of Pat Fischer or Rich Jackson. I suppose I should go look them up, they've gotten some votes.
That's one of the great things about this set is that you get to learn about guys you may never have heard of and you can come to appreciate them. One of the reasons I actually enjoyed opening my box of 91 Enor HOF cards was that it had the Canton plaque text on the back of the card. Having never been to Canton yet (though a trip in 08 to see CC and maybe Tingelhoff go in, might be in order.
-Josh
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
You know what else I just realized... Once I'm finished with my All Time Team Sets, this will be a great list for me to figure out who I can and should not sell from those sets once they are retired. I was always intending to finish those sets then sell off all the "No chance at the HOF" cards. This makes it easy.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
<< <i>One other note, after having just read Jasons latest post... I think if they've been a senior finalist in the last couple of years, then they probably deserve to be in the set. That's a pretty good "sniff" by the HOF committee, so having them in there can't hurt. So I guess that means I'll put in a vote for Hadl, Retzlaff and LeBeau.
You know what else I just realized... Once I'm finished with my All Time Team Sets, this will be a great list for me to figure out who I can and should not sell from those sets once they are retired. I was always intending to finish those sets then sell off all the "No chance at the HOF" cards. This makes it easy.
Josh, I haven't counted any votes for you yet...Are those 3 the only guys you want to vote for?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
My votes for QBs are Hadl, Conerly and Brodie.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg, I have you down for:
Charlie Conerly
John Hadl
Jack Kemp
John Brodie
Roman Gabriel
Didn't you vote for everyone on the list? Do you want me to subtract votes from Kemp and Gabriel?
I agree Hadl has some nice stats, but once again, if you take away or lessen what he did between 1960-1964 (unfortunately, this is a fact of life with the HOF voters) its not quite as impressive..It would be like adding Hershel Walker's USFL stats to his NFL totals, which would make him a stronger candidate...As of right now, Hadl doesn't have the votes..So it seems more would disagree with his addition rather than agree..Me personally I don't think he will ever get a shot...Conerly is really the only Senior QB out there I can believe might get a sniff..That is until Stabler and Ken Anderson become Senior candidates in the near future...I'm pretty happy with how the set is rounding out, and I think we "got it right" on 99% of these guys...I've said my peace on Marshall, but I can't argue that the senior committee has continued to recognized him recently and it's not out of the question that he could get in.
Anyone who doesn't get the vote now is always open to being added later..This is going to be a very fluid set, so feel free to request the addition of Hadl or anyone else you feel fits the mold and PSA will send a poll to whoever is collecting the set.
Once this years Senior Semi-finalists are determined (July/Aug), I will request anyone who is on that list to be added to the set..Everyone who has been a Senior Semi-finalist the last 3 years was up for voting, and all except these guys below have the votes:
John Hadl (2006 Semi-finalist)
Dick LeBeau (2006 Semi-finalist)
Pete Retzlaff (2006 Semi-finalist)
None of the 3 above were Semi-finalists in 2005 or 2007...
Jason >>
Jason,
Take away my vote for Kemp. I'm confused as to why he was a 7 time pro bowler....the stats for Hadl and Meredith were better in my opinion....
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Below is a great site to review NFL stats going back to 1950.
NFL Reference site
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>
Jason,
Take away my vote for Kemp. I'm confused as to why he was a 7 time pro bowler....the stats for Hadl and Meredith were better in my opinion....
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Kemp was also an AFL MVP...Stats don't always tell the whole story...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Everyone,
Below is a great site to review NFL stats going back to 1950.
NFL Reference site
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Be aware this site has quite a few inaccuracies...Mainly when it comes to "Pro Bowls"..Also missing alot of info..Stats prior to 1950..Playoff stats prior to 1967...But is good for a quick peek at stats of the modern guys...But they have missed some Pro Bowls.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
John Hadl---After playing halfback on both offense and defense at the University of Kansas as a sophomore, John Hadl played quarterback for his last two years at Kansas, and was selected as the school's Player of the Century. He was an All-American at running back in 1960 and at quarterback in 1961, and is a member of the College Football Hall of Fame. The 6-foot-1, 210-pounder joined the American Football League's Chargers in 1962. He shared quarterbacking duties until 1966, when he became San Diego's starting quarterback, and averaged over 3,000 yards and 23 tds per (14-game) season for the next four years, as part of a virtually unstoppable combination with Lance Alworth. He was the American Football League's leading passer in 1965 and 1968. Hadl was an AFL All-Star in 1964, 1965, 1968 and in 1969, when he was the AFL All-Star Game's Most Valuable Player. He is the third leading passer in league history, behind Hall of Famers Jack Kemp and George Blanda.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
So to answer your question, there is nobody I would vote for that hasn't already made the list. Clear as mud? lol
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
<< <i>Jack Kemp (Occidental College) won two AFL Western Division championships with the Los Angeles/San Diego Chargers, and played in the first two AFL Championship games in 1960 and 1961, before being picked up by the Bills. He led Buffalo to three straight Eastern Division titles and two American Football League championships, in 1964 and 1965, throwing to receivers Elbert Dubenion and Ernie Warlick. Kemp was the first 3,000 yard passer in the American Football League (1960, 14-game schedule) and the league's Most Valuable Player in 1965. He had the most career passes attempted, most completions and most yards gained passing in the history of the American Football League, although he sat out 1968 with an injury. Jack Kemp was an American Football League All-Star six consecutive years and for seven of the league's ten years, and the only AFL quarterback to be a starter in five AFL Championship Games. Kemp co-founded the American Football League Players Association and was elected its president five times. He was one of only twenty players who were in the American Football League for its entire ten-year existence. Kemp has been selected by the NCAA during its centennial celebration as one of America's '100 Most Influential Student-Athletes'.
John Hadl---After playing halfback on both offense and defense at the University of Kansas as a sophomore, John Hadl played quarterback for his last two years at Kansas, and was selected as the school's Player of the Century. He was an All-American at running back in 1960 and at quarterback in 1961, and is a member of the College Football Hall of Fame. The 6-foot-1, 210-pounder joined the American Football League's Chargers in 1962. He shared quarterbacking duties until 1966, when he became San Diego's starting quarterback, and averaged over 3,000 yards and 23 tds per (14-game) season for the next four years, as part of a virtually unstoppable combination with Lance Alworth. He was the American Football League's leading passer in 1965 and 1968. Hadl was an AFL All-Star in 1964, 1965, 1968 and in 1969, when he was the AFL All-Star Game's Most Valuable Player. He is the third leading passer in league history, behind Hall of Famers Jack Kemp and George Blanda. >>
Sorry Jason, some of the stuff you quoted here is not accurate. The first AFL QB to pass for over 3000 yards in a seaon was Blanda in 1961. In fact he missed two games that year and only played in 12, yet still threw for 3330 yards and 36 TD's which was the professional football mark until passed by Marino in '84 and in a 16 game season. Blanda averaged 3 td's passes per game!
The career passing marks he holds were in a large part due to the fact he played 10 full years in the league. Namath had nearly as many stats in every category in 5 years. Dawson had 182 TD's in 8 years, Hadl had 142 TD passes in 8 years which included some time as a back up to Kemp. Kemp 114 TD's in 10 years just as a comparison.
Plus the QB rankings in the AFL, according to the 1970 TSN AFL history book, show Kemp ranked 9th all-time. They base their ranking on completion pct. only with a minimum number of attempts. Kemp's was terrible at 46.7. He also threw for 114 TD's in 3055 attempts and had 181 int's., Avg. gain 6.92. In other words hardly stellar. I'll give you the fact they he was the starting QB in 5 AFL championship games. His record was 2-3 in those games. His career playoff line looks like this: 139 att, 68 comp., 48.9 %, 993 yards, 2 TD's, 9 INT's, 1 rushing TD, 7.14 AVG Gain.. While making it to the championship match for 5 out of the 10 years the league existed was great, but his performance in those games was not. Buffalo won their two Championships with Kemp at the helm due to great defense and Cookie Gilchrist's running the ball. By the way, San Diego traded him to Buffalo to make room for a better QB. That being John Hadl.
Hadl put together some nice numbers from 1964 to 1973. His last years with Houston and the Packers really lowered his overall reputation.
Finally, what ranking method is used to rank these AFL QB's?
Len Dawson is head and shoulders above anyone in AFL history. Above Blanda, and way, way above Kemp.
In fact I think Dawson got snubbed being the first team All-AFL QB too. They gave that to Namath.
Rich