Great idea. I would definitely want to compete in this set. I had thought about this idea for a set as well but am glad YOU have come forward with it because you possess tremendous credibility amongst board members when it comes to pro football knowledge, especially in the category of HOFers and near HOFers - cohorts that are most discussed in the realm of PSA boards when it comes to football. That being said, I would like to present evidence that there really is no doubt that Chuck Bednarik is Mr. Eagle. Reggie White was an all-time great player, but his greatness, as you astutely pointed out, is shared between two teams and his time spent with the Eagles and accolades earned with them DO NOT come close to what Concrete Charlie did while he played his whole 14 year career with the Eagles. He helped bring 2 NFL Championships to Philadelphia (1960 over a great Packer team) during his illustrious career. Please read the following articles about Bednarik that give a broader perspective of the man who is Mr. Eagle.
Back in my day Jeff Merron is a staff writer for ESPN.com. ...The duct-tape man Instinct and heart defined the career of Chuck Bednarik, football's last 60-minute man. In his 14-year Hall of Fame career in Philadelphia, the center-linebacker missed only three games due to injury. But there were plenty of times he played hurt. "We had some lousy teams in the late 1950s, but that didn't faze Chuck," says former Eagles equipment manager James "Red" O'Reilly. "Next to last game of the 1956 season, we're playing in Washington and the temperature is seven above zero with winds blowing about 25 miles an hour. At halftime, all the other players care about is getting warm. Chuck's shivering and I can see he's got frostbite on his nose, but that's not what he's thinking about. He calls me over and says -- I'll never forget it -- 'You got some duct tape, Red? I think I broke my ankle.'" O'Reilly said he then helped Bednarik craft a splint from part of a discarded shoulder pad to support the ankle. "He went out to play the second half. Didn't tell the coaches or trainer. Only I knew. We lose the game, we're 3-7 or something like that, season's over, but I'll be darned if he didn't play the final game of the season with that same splint. Maybe sat down for three minutes total." In the offseason, O'Reilly said, Bednarik finally went to a doctor and found out it was a compound fracture that had spawned a potentially life-threatening infection. Bednarik spent two months in a cast and on crutches, but the ankle healed and he didn't miss a minute, much less a game.
A View From the Hall: Bednarik Sorry
by Ray Didinger Special to ComcastSportsNet.com
Chuck Bednarik is sorry.
He is sorry for saying he rooted against the Eagles in Super Bowl XXXIX. He is sorry his comment may have angered some Philadelphia fans and left him estranged from his former team.
"I talked it over with my family," Bednarik said. "They said, 'Chuck, why are you so bitter? Why did you say those things?' I thought it over and I felt like I should make things right (with the Eagles)."
So prior to the season, Bednarik wrote a letter of apology to Eagles owner Jeff Lurie. For such a proud man, it had to be difficult for Bednarik to put the words "I'm sorry" on paper, but he did. He said he sent the letter to Lurie only to have it returned to him, unopened and unaccepted.
Lurie claims he never saw the letter. If it was returned to Bednarik, Lurie said, it was a mistake. "I'd never do something like that," Lurie said when asked about the letter last week. "I don't know what happened."
Maybe it was a mixup, an innocent mistake. Whatever, the bottom line is still the same: Chuck Bednarik, the Hall of Fame center and linebacker, the man whose name is synonymous with the Eagles, wants to patch things up with the organization.
As his son-in-law Ken Safarowic put it: "A proud old Eagle (wants to) find his way home."
"If Chuck feels that way, I'm happy to welcome him back," Lurie said. "He'll always be one of the greatest players in the history of the franchise. I don't have any hard feelings."
Lurie and Bednarik had a good relationship when Lurie bought the team in 1995. He invited Bednarik and his wife Emma to join him in the owners box for several home games. When the NovaCare Complex opened in 2001, Lurie invited Bednarik to the ribbon cutting. The main auditorium is dominated by four larger-than-life portraits of great Eagles from the past: Steve Van Buren, Tommy McDonald, Reggie White and Bednarik.
"I can't imagine a finer tribute," Lurie said of the portrait, "and Chuck deserves it."
But a rift between Bednarik and the team developed and widened over the past few years. It began with comments Bednarik made about today's NFL players. He said they were "overpaid and underplayed." He expressed contempt for the modern players' salaries and their antics on the field. He hated the showboating and said so in numerous interviews.
"I watch games now and it makes me want to throw up," Bednarik said.
Bednarik's words made it back to the Eagles locker room. Needless to say, it did not endear him to the players.
When Bednarik asked Lurie to buy 100 copies of his book, "The Last of the 60-Minute Men" and give them to the players. Lurie declined. He said it wasn't his place to tell the players what to read. But more to the point, Lurie felt it would send a message to the players that he endorsed Bednarik's views, which he clearly did not. Bednarik took Lurie's rejection as a personal affront.
Thus began the cold war.
Last season, when the Eagles went the Super Bowl, the media sought out Bednarik. He was, after all, a link to the team's glory years. He was a rookie on the 1949 team that won the NFL title, and he was a 35-year-old ironman who played both ways on the 1960 championship team. He was known as "Mr. Eagle" because he played 14 seasons for the team, more than any other player. Yet he told interviewers he wanted the Eagles to lose to New England in the Super Bowl.
"I want our (1960) team to be the last one to win it," said Bednarik, who still had not forgiven Lurie.
The story ran in hundreds of newspapers. Lurie was in Jacksonville, getting ready for the Super Bowl, when he read Bednarik's comments. "I was surprised," Lurie said. "How could someone so identified with a team root against (it)?" There was a backlash among Eagles fans who called the talk shows to voice their disappointment in Bednarik. They said he sounded like a bitter old man.
After the Eagles loss in the Super Bowl, family and friends talked to Bednarik about the damage he was doing to his reputation. They told Bednarik he was in danger of toppling off the pedestal he occupied for half a century. They urged him to drop the book issue, which they saw as petty, and get behind the Eagles once again. Bednarik finally agreed.
"I'm 80 years old, what's the point of letting these (disputes) go on?" Bednarik said. "Emma, my wife, said: 'Charlie, people think you don't like anybody.' So I wrote my letter (to the Eagles) saying I wanted to put it all to rest."
Bednarik does not deny he resents the salaries in today's NFL. The most he ever made in a season was $27,000 and that was for his final season, 1962. Like most players of that era, Bednarik worked a second job – he was a salesman for the Warner Concrete Company – to support his family. He sees players today making millions and still complaining and, yes, it makes him bitter.
"We're the ones who built this league," Bednarik said, referring to the NFL players of his generation, "and these players don't even know who we are."
Bednarik is a crusty and opinionated old cuss, which doesn't always sit well with everyone, but that should not overshadow what he was. In his book, Pro Football's 100 Greatest Players, George Allen ranked Bednarik as his No. 1 linebacker ahead of Dick Butkus, Ray Nitschke and Joe Schmidt.
In 1960, Bednarik played both center and linebacker for the Eagles last championship team. He delivered the knockout shot on the Giants' Frank Gifford and forced the fumble that lifted the Eagles to the Eastern Division title. In the championship game, he made the tackle on Green Bay's Jim Taylor that closed out the 17-13 victory. He was on the field for 139 of 142 plays that day.
Chuck Bednarik will always be an Eagle. In his heart, he knows that. Jeff Lurie knows it, too. In a season in which so much has gone wrong, a reconciliation between Bednarik and his old team would be one thing that went right.
Ray Didinger is a senior producer at NFL Films and an analyst on Comcast SportsNet's "Post-Game Live" following every Eagles game. He will be signing copies of his latest book, "The Eagles Encyclopedia," at Chickie's and Pete's on Packer Avenue on Sunday, Nov. 27, from 1 until 3 p.m.
Charles Phillip (Chuck) Bednarik was born on May 1, 1925 in Bethlehem, PA. Chuck, nicknamed "Concrete Charley" spent all of his 14 professional NFL career years with the Philadelphia, Eagles. In 1960 the Eagles line was depleted with injuries forcing Bednarik to play offensive and defensive position as center and linebacker. In no small part that effort lead the 1960 Eagles to their second NFL Championship. In appreciation the Eagles organization gave him a bonus payment of $250.00. Chuck Bednarik played for the University of Pennsylvania from 1945 to 1949. He was a two time All-American playing center and linebacker. Bednarik was the very first pick in the NFL in 1949, selected by the Philadelphia Eagles. He played for 14 years with the Eagles as center and linebacker, and was All-Pro eight times and played in the Pro Bowl eight times. In the 1954 Pro Bowl, he was selected as the MVP. He was a member of two World Championship teams, 1949 and 1960. In the 1960 championship game, Eagles vs. Green Bay Packers, he played 58 ½ minutes and made the game saving tackle on the last play. Chuck retired in 1962 at the age of 37. He was elected to the Pro Hall of Fame in 1967 and the College Hall of Fame in 1969. His other honors include All Time 50 Year Team, The 75 Year Two Way Team, and in 1999, the John Madden All Millennium Team. As Chuck says, "There is nothing else to be had…only Heaven." After retiring from football Mr. Bednarik soon made a name for himself in business as a "Special Sales Representative" for the Warner Company. Fans can contact him at: Chuck Bednarik 6379 Winding Road Coopersburg, Pa. 18036-9410
John
Lawrence Taylor #1 Basic/Master 1993 Pro Set Power All-Power-Defense Gold #1
Great story on Bednarik...Like I said before, you have to see this guy play...If you love football and want to watch someone who put terror in the opposing team he's a must see. To forget or overlook such a player just because he played a long time ago and maybe aren't as familiar with him as we are with say a Reggie White would be sad. I wish NFL films or someone would put together highlight package DVDs, maybe an hour or two long of particular players from the past. The entire DVD would be just highlights of that one player. This would help with promoting the history of the game. With the NFL getting so huge, I think it would be very profitable, not to mention would keep some of these guys like Unitas, Bednarik, Baugh fresh in people's minds. So many times I shake my head when I hear guys who play today (Tom Brady) being compared to or called one of the best ever. He's great and has potential to be up in that discussion, but still a long way to go. He still wouldn't be in my top 10 or probably top 20 QBs of all time. YET...
jradke, that's an idea, but I'm like Dave..Rookies Only. I don't own a non-RC...That's not to say someone couldn't request a set such as this. There may be a segment of collectors who are interested, but me personally I wouldn't participate. I need every dime towards the football rookies just to stay in the game there...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
In keeping with the discussion on franchise greats. Here are the all-time passing, rushing, receiving yardage leaders for each franchise. I was surprised at how many of these were guys who played together on the same teams.
Bears- Sid Luckman, Walter Payton, Johnny Morris Bengals- Ken Anderson, Corey Dillon, Isaac Curtis Bills- Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed Broncos- John Elway, Terrell Davis, Rod Smith Browns- Brian Sipe, Jim Brown, Ozzie Newsome Bucs-Vinny Testaverde, James Wilder, Mark Carrier Cardinals- Jim Hart, Otis Anderson, Roy Green Chargers- Dan Fouts, LaDanian Tomlinson, Lance Alworth Chiefs- Len Dawson, Priest Holmes, Tony Gonzalez Colts- Johnny Unitas, Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison Cowboys- Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, Michael Irvin Dolphins- Dan Marino, Larry Csonka, Mark Duper Eagles-Ron Jaworski, Wilbert Montgomery, Harold Carmichael Falcons- Steve Bartkowski, Gerald Riggs, Terrence Mathis 49ers- Joe Montana, Joe Perry, Jerry Rice Giants- Phil Simms, Tiki Barber, Amani Toomer Jaguars- Mark Brunell, Fred Taylor, Jimmy Smith Jets- Joe Namath, Curtis Martin, Don Maynard Lions- Bobby Layne, Barry Sanders, Herman Moore Oilers/Titans- Warren Moon, Eddie George, Earnest Givins Packers- Brett Favre, Jim Taylor, James Lofton Panthers- Jake Delhomme, Tim Biakabutuka, Mushin Muhammed Patriots- Drew Bledsoe, Sam Cunningham, Stanley Morgan Raiders- Ken Stabler, Marcus Allen, Tim Brown Rams- Jim Everett, Eric Dickerson, Isaac Bruce Ravens- Vinny Testaverde, Jamal Lewis, Todd Heap Redskins-Joe Theismann, John Riggins, Art Monk Saints- Archie Manning, Deuce McCallister, Eric Martin Seahawks- Dave Krieg, Shaun Alexander, Steve Largent Steelers-Terry Bradshaw, Franco Harris, John Stallworth Texans- David Carr, Dominick Davis/Williams, Andre Johnson Vikings- Fran Tarkenton, Robert Smith, Cris Carter
Testaverde #1 for TWO teams???Come on..lol
Some of the teams still have guys on this list from the 40s-50s...That's pretty sad.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
packers go against your statement about guys playing together. however, green would have taken taylors place if he wouldnt have been hurt in 2005 or stayed with them this year. i think he was under a 100 yds from taking over the leading rushers spot.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>packers go against your statement about guys playing together. however, green would have taken taylors place if he wouldnt have been hurt in 2005 or stayed with them this year. i think he was under a 100 yds from taking over the leading rushers spot. >>
Green was just 46 yds away in fact...Only need 2 more attempts to be the all-time Packers attempts leader, but needed 29 TDs to catch Taylor...
Funny that after the discussions over Baugh vs. Jurgensen that Thiesmann is the all-time Redskins passing yardage leader...just goes to show, its not all about the numbers...You have to compare guys to their own era and peers.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
well with favre they have favored the pass in the red zone and generally with good reason. especially since he is so good on the move, quick release etc.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason or anyone who may know. Has there ever been an article in the SMR for the HOF Rookie cards? It seems that with such a huge following that there would be an article or 2 covering it. Have any other publications had any good articles??
With the re-grading of the Nagurski 9, I think you are going to see more pub on the set as time goes on.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason, Thanks for sharing those links. Interesting reads on both articles. As a football player set collector, it gave me some perspective on the key card sets and their participants.
John
Lawrence Taylor #1 Basic/Master 1993 Pro Set Power All-Power-Defense Gold #1
I'm a little surprised that Robert Smith is ahead of Chuck Foreman on the Vikes' rushing list (although both had somewhat abbreviated careers) and that Joe Perry is still the Niners' rushing leader. Would've thought Roger Craig had overtaken him.
<< <i>shouldn't all of the Browns you placed on there be under the Ravens? >>
Nope, part of the move to Baltimore, Art Modell agreed to leave the history of the Browns in Cleveland. The new Browns assumed that history when Cleveland got its 2nd team.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'd love to see that stunt keep Modell out of the HOF.
Nick >>
I think it has so far, and deservedly so...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Just depends on your budget how fast you can climb...50% of the cards can be found pretty regularly. These are not low pop commons, these are your star players. I've seen guys come up the ranks fairly quickly, and others that have taken their time and been more budget minded.
No right or wrong way IMO, as each collector sets their own goals...It took me 5 years to get to 100% for the first time..Now every year with new elections you have to get back to 100%..lol
Best of luck in your quest! Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Another one bites the dust!! I overpaid a touch, but it appears to be a high end 8. I have 3 more at PSA right now (Adderley, Mackey and Bell) that should all grade PSA 8 (hopefully). I have feelers out there to buy NM raw of Friedman, Kinard, Lane, McDonald and Hein. Crossing my fingers
<< <i>Another one bites the dust!! I overpaid a touch, but it appears to be a high end 8. I have 3 more at PSA right now (Adderley, Mackey and Bell) that should all grade PSA 8 (hopefully). I have feelers out there to buy NM raw of Friedman, Kinard, Lane, McDonald and Hein. Crossing my fingers
That's actually the cheapest Gatski in over 3 years...They were selling in the $450-$550 range for a long time, just recently started coming down after a bnuch have been popping up for sale on ebay and on some websites the last 3-4 months. I always wondered why they were so tough to come by even though the POP wasn't real low (37 in PSA 8, 1 higher). They used to only show up once or twice a year.
Congrats though, I think in the long term, your price will turn out to be a steal.
I'm still in need of 3 cards to get back to 100%, and all 3 are super tough.. 1948 Bowman Pete Pihos, 1951 Bowman Lou Creekmur, 1962 Fleer Billy Shaw...My goal was to get back to 100% by June 1st, which is going to be very tough considering the last 3 cards I need...So if anyone has one or more of these available, let me know!!!
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I've been picking up some cards too and finally got 75%. I'm still in 18th place though. I had moved as high as 16th and then Dave and Mike jumped past me again. Such is the challenge and joy of the set though. I figure, at 75% it's still a pretty good accomplishment and hey, I'm still in the top 20. The top 10 spot is really going to be a tough one though. I would like to finish out the team sets to 100% and then retire them, then focus on the HOF and TOD sets. I've got 90%+ of the cards I need, they are just all sitting here in raw form. I just have to get them graded...
<< <i>I was surprised there were only 2 bidders....the first bidder and myself. I'm not going to complain.
Jason - what grade are you looking for the 1948 Pihos?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Eventually, I want at least a PSA 7, but will settle for a PSA 6...I doubt I'll ever get the PSA 8 back without breaking the bank..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I finally started working on my HOF set again after my wife and I having a baby girl in Dec. Recent pick ups: PSA 8 Carson, PSA 8 Wright and PSA 5 Canadeo. Hopefully I can start climbing the charts again. I can remember 3 years ago being in the top 10, but of course there was much less competition.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If I only had the funds to snag a couple of those beauties. I'm really starting to like that '35 Chicle set.
Do any of them ever have a white border or is that "toned" look just the card? The scan Jason posted of the Nagurski had a glowing white border but he said it was a little "brighter" than it actually displayed.
On a side note, I paid $90 for my PSA 2 Ken Strong because I had never seen it. I probably overpaid by a fair amount but it was the first one I had seen and I was excited to get one. As it turns out, if you go actively searching for this stuff, it does come up for sale once in a while.
Oh and that Namath looks like a great card, but that holder is just awful! What is it, a foot and a half tall?
Do any of them ever have a white border or is that "toned" look just the card? The scan Jason posted of the Nagurski had a glowing white border but he said it was a little "brighter" than it actually displayed.
>>
Josh,
All of my 35 Chicle's are scanned in my HOF RC set (link in my sig line) and my scans are virtually identical as the cards appear in person. I have a pretty good sampling of quality among my 35's. The card stock was weak, so I think its nearly if not totally impossible that any have survived without at least some toning.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jason, the Battles and Edwards are gorgeous! That's about as close to "un-toned" as I've seen. >>
Only the centering keeps them from being graded higher. The corners are outstanding on both, and you are correct they are the least toned of my 35's. I used to own a Battles 8 that had a little darker borders but was better centered.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I found a new formula on the net that I have used to rate every HOF WR plus some of the top guys who are currently playing. This formula give points for things like Top 5 in the league, Pro Bowls, All-Pro selections, Super Bowl/Championship game performances, MVP, Player of the Year awards, even for retring as the all-time leader in an important category. Anyway, I ran the numbers on most of the top WRs including all of the HOFers I think the formula is pretty valid. Best thing about it, is that for the most part, it only compares the WRs to how dominant they were vs. their peers in their era. Wasn't sure how the numbers would stack up, but after ranking all the players by it, its pretty darn close I think.
Anyway, here ya go. Let me know what you think.
1- Jerry Rice- 189 2- Don Hutson- 163 3- Lance Alworth- 90 4- Marvin Harrison- 80 5- Steve Largent- 70 6- Raymond Berry- 66 7- Paul Warfield- 64 7- Cris Carter- 64 9- Pete Pihos- 63 10- Fred Biletnikoff- 62 10- Dante Lavelli- 62 12- James Lofton- 61 13- Bob Hayes- 59 13- Don Maynard- 59 15- Cliff Branch- 56 16- Bobby Mitchell- 55 16- Charley Taylor- 55 18- Torry Holt- 54 18- Tommy McDonald- 54 18- Terrell Owens- 54 21- Michael Irvin- 52 21- John Stallworth- 52 23- Tim Brown- 49 23- Tom Fears- 49 23- Andre Reed- 49 26- Art Monk- 48 26- Lynn Swann- 48 28- Elroy Hirsch- 47 28- Drew Pearson- 47 30- Billy Wilson- 45 31- Isaac Bruce- 35 31- Charlie Joiner- 35 33- Jimmy Smith 28 34- Henry Ellard- 26 35- Irving Fryar- 23 35- Wayne Millner- 23
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I notice Monk is way down the list...... However, 4 guys below him are in the HOF... >>
Very true...You'll also notice that NON-HOFers Bob Hayes and Cliff Branch are ahead of Monk.
This is a cumulative system and once a player earns points, they keep them...I'm pretty surprised to see some of the active players as high as they are..Harrison at #4..Holt and Owens already at HOF levels...Especially since they still have time to earn more points...Since Bob Hayes is the highest NON-HOFer with 59 points, I guess 60 makes you a lock???lol
BTW, Forgot Randy Moss...His current rating is 46...And he has not earned a point since 2004..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jas, I would like to point out that I personally am only 23 points off the bottom of this list. Fuzz
Wanted: Bell Brands FB and BB, Chiefs regionals especially those ugly milk cards, Coke caps, Topps and Fleer inserts and test issues from the 60's. 1981 FB Rack pack w/ Jan Stenerud on top.
<< <i>Jas, I would like to point out that I personally am only 23 points off the bottom of this list. Fuzz >>
Which would put you closer to being as good as Wayne Millner as Wayne Millner is to Art Monk!lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
After seeing your list, I still think that Billy Wilson deserves a shot at the HOF. He could easily be a veteran committe selection in the next few years.
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
Hey Jason, Where would guys like Billy Howton, Max McGee and Mac Speedie rank using this formula, if you don't mind working on that? I realize Speedie had a short NFL career but if you include his AAFC totals he's gotta rank right up there with say Tom Fears.
Also, I hate to knock a Redskin, but Wayne Millner may be the worst player in the HOF. I would put Hugh Taylor or TE Jerry Smith in there before him. I guess it helped that Millner played for Notre Dame back in the 1930's. The Packers Lavie Dilwig was a better player.
Wow...I had no idea Speedie would rank so high..Obviously all the championship games help, but he was pretty dominant.
Speedie- 60 Howton- 47 McGee- 28
Had he played just a few more season I think he would be in the HOF already...Military service shortened his career as it did many others from that era....The rumor is that Speedie was blackballed from HOF induction because of the feud he had with his legendary coach Paul Brown...It was bad enough to actually force Speedie to play in the CFL his last 2 years...
2 of the other 3 "triplets" from that dominant pre-Jim Brown Cleveland Browns team (Otto Graham and Marion Motley) were considered slam dunk HOFers, and are mentioned amongst the greatest players ever...All 3 played in the AAFC, so I don't think that fact has held him up...
Speedie was a finalist 3 times, to include being a Senior Candidate in 1983. Not getting in as a Senior candidate is pretty much the kiss of death...
Other Senior finalists that didn't get elected:
Willie Galimore Marshall Goldberg Ole Haugsrud Bob Hayes Jerry Kramer Lou Rymkus Dick Stanfel
Only TWO players were ever given a second chance at being a Senior finalist, and both got in on their 2nd try:
Lou Creekmur (1980 and 1996) Henry Jordan (1989 and 1995)
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Updated list with those 3 added along with Randy Moss:
***= Guys who have been HOF candidates, but not been elected.
1- Jerry Rice- 189 2- Don Hutson- 163 3- Lance Alworth- 90 4- Marvin Harrison- 80 5- Steve Largent- 70 6- Raymond Berry- 66 7- Paul Warfield- 64 7- Cris Carter- 64 9- Pete Pihos- 63 10- Fred Biletnikoff- 62 10- Dante Lavelli- 62 10- Del Shoffner- 62*** 13- James Lofton- 61 14- Mac Speedie- 60*** 15- Bob Hayes- 59*** 15- Don Maynard- 59 17- Cliff Branch- 56*** 18- Bobby Mitchell- 55 18- Charley Taylor- 55 20- Torry Holt- 54 20- Tommy McDonald- 54 20- Terrell Owens- 54 23- Michael Irvin- 52 23- John Stallworth- 52 25-Sterling Sharpe- 50*** 26- Tim Brown- 49 26- Tom Fears- 49 26- Andre Reed- 49*** 29- Art Monk- 48*** 29- Lynn Swann- 48 31- Elroy Hirsch- 47 31- Billy Howton- 47*** 31- Drew Pearson- 47*** 33- Randy Moss- 46 34- Gark Clark- 45*** 34- Billy Wilson- 45*** 36- Harold Carmichael- 37*** 37- Isaac Bruce- 35 37- Harold Jackson- 35*** 37- Charlie Joiner- 35 40- John Gilliam- 34*** 41- Gary Collins- 30*** 42- Antonio Freeman- 29 43- Max McGee- 28*** 43- Jimmy Smith- 28 44- Henry Ellard- 26*** 45- Irving Fryar- 23*** 45- Wayne Millner- 23
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Also, I hate to knock a Redskin, but Wayne Millner may be the worst player in the HOF. I would put Hugh Taylor or TE Jerry Smith in there before him. I guess it helped that Millner played for Notre Dame back in the 1930's. The Packers Lavie Dilwig was a better player. >>
Seriously, how is Miller in the HOF? -
76 Games 124 Catches 1,578 Yards 12 TD's
His career doesn't even come close to Jerry Rice's best season. LOL.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
From the above list, these are the WRs who have been passed over by the HOF:
Mac Speedie- 60 Bob Hayes- 59 Cliff Branch- 56 Andre Reed- 49 Art Monk- 48 Billy Howton- 47 Drew Pearson- 47 Billy Wilson- 45 Max McGee- 28 Henry Ellard- 26 Irving Fryar- 23
Question: Who is the most OVERLOOKED/UNDERAPPRECIATED WR in NFL history?
IMO, McGee, Ellard and Fryar are simply not HOF caliber. Speedie, Hayes, Reed, and Monk have all been Finalists at least once. So they may be underappreciated, they are definitely not overlooked. They've all gotten looks.
That leaves the choices: Cliff Branch, Drew Pearson, Billy Howton and Billy Wilson. None of these guys have ever even been a finalist for the HOF. Branch and Pearson played in the league together from 1973-1983. Howton and Wilson played together from 1952-1960.
HOF WR's who also played significant seasons in the 1952-1960 time frame? Raymond Berry, Tom Fears, Elroy Hirsch, Dante Lavelli, Tommy McDonald, Bobby Mitchell and Pete Pihos.
1973-1983? Fred Biletnikoff, Charlie Joiner, Steve Largent, James Lofton, John Stallworth, Lynn Swann, Charley Taylor and Paul Warfield.
There are your comparisons......Opinions? Should any of these overlooked guys be in the HOF?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Obviously they don't know the market..If it sells for double that I will be the new owner...lol
My PSA 7 isn't too far removed from that one.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
DAve
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Great idea. I would definitely want to compete in this set. I had thought about this idea for a set as well but am glad YOU have come forward with it because you possess tremendous credibility amongst board members when it comes to pro football knowledge, especially in the category of HOFers and near HOFers - cohorts that are most discussed in the realm of PSA boards when it comes to football. That being said, I would like to present evidence that there really is no doubt that Chuck Bednarik is Mr. Eagle. Reggie White was an all-time great player, but his greatness, as you astutely pointed out, is shared between two teams and his time spent with the Eagles and accolades earned with them DO NOT come close to what Concrete Charlie did while he played his whole 14 year career with the Eagles. He helped bring 2 NFL Championships to Philadelphia (1960 over a great Packer team) during his illustrious career. Please read the following articles about Bednarik that give a broader perspective of the man who is Mr. Eagle.
Back in my day
Jeff Merron is a staff writer for ESPN.com.
...The duct-tape man
Instinct and heart defined the career of Chuck Bednarik, football's last 60-minute man. In his 14-year Hall of Fame career in Philadelphia, the center-linebacker missed only three games due to injury. But there were plenty of times he played hurt.
"We had some lousy teams in the late 1950s, but that didn't faze Chuck," says former Eagles equipment manager James "Red" O'Reilly. "Next to last game of the 1956 season, we're playing in Washington and the temperature is seven above zero with winds blowing about 25 miles an hour. At halftime, all the other players care about is getting warm. Chuck's shivering and I can see he's got frostbite on his nose, but that's not what he's thinking about. He calls me over and says -- I'll never forget it -- 'You got some duct tape, Red? I think I broke my ankle.'"
O'Reilly said he then helped Bednarik craft a splint from part of a discarded shoulder pad to support the ankle. "He went out to play the second half. Didn't tell the coaches or trainer. Only I knew. We lose the game, we're 3-7 or something like that, season's over, but I'll be darned if he didn't play the final game of the season with that same splint. Maybe sat down for three minutes total." In the offseason, O'Reilly said, Bednarik finally went to a doctor and found out it was a compound fracture that had spawned a potentially life-threatening infection. Bednarik spent two months in a cast and on crutches, but the ankle healed and he didn't miss a minute, much less a game.
A View From the Hall: Bednarik Sorry
by Ray Didinger
Special to ComcastSportsNet.com
Chuck Bednarik is sorry.
He is sorry for saying he rooted against the Eagles in Super Bowl XXXIX. He is sorry his comment may have angered some Philadelphia fans and left him estranged from his former team.
"I talked it over with my family," Bednarik said. "They said, 'Chuck, why are you so bitter? Why did you say those things?' I thought it over and I felt like I should make things right (with the Eagles)."
So prior to the season, Bednarik wrote a letter of apology to Eagles owner Jeff Lurie. For such a proud man, it had to be difficult for Bednarik to put the words "I'm sorry" on paper, but he did. He said he sent the letter to Lurie only to have it returned to him, unopened and unaccepted.
Lurie claims he never saw the letter. If it was returned to Bednarik, Lurie said, it was a mistake. "I'd never do something like that," Lurie said when asked about the letter last week. "I don't know what happened."
Maybe it was a mixup, an innocent mistake. Whatever, the bottom line is still the same: Chuck Bednarik, the Hall of Fame center and linebacker, the man whose name is synonymous with the Eagles, wants to patch things up with the organization.
As his son-in-law Ken Safarowic put it: "A proud old Eagle (wants to) find his way home."
"If Chuck feels that way, I'm happy to welcome him back," Lurie said. "He'll always be one of the greatest players in the history of the franchise. I don't have any hard feelings."
Lurie and Bednarik had a good relationship when Lurie bought the team in 1995. He invited Bednarik and his wife Emma to join him in the owners box for several home games. When the NovaCare Complex opened in 2001, Lurie invited Bednarik to the ribbon cutting. The main auditorium is dominated by four larger-than-life portraits of great Eagles from the past: Steve Van Buren, Tommy McDonald, Reggie White and Bednarik.
"I can't imagine a finer tribute," Lurie said of the portrait, "and Chuck deserves it."
But a rift between Bednarik and the team developed and widened over the past few years. It began with comments Bednarik made about today's NFL players. He said they were "overpaid and underplayed." He expressed contempt for the modern players' salaries and their antics on the field. He hated the showboating and said so in numerous interviews.
"I watch games now and it makes me want to throw up," Bednarik said.
Bednarik's words made it back to the Eagles locker room. Needless to say, it did not endear him to the players.
When Bednarik asked Lurie to buy 100 copies of his book, "The Last of the 60-Minute Men" and give them to the players. Lurie declined. He said it wasn't his place to tell the players what to read. But more to the point, Lurie felt it would send a message to the players that he endorsed Bednarik's views, which he clearly did not. Bednarik took Lurie's rejection as a personal affront.
Thus began the cold war.
Last season, when the Eagles went the Super Bowl, the media sought out Bednarik. He was, after all, a link to the team's glory years. He was a rookie on the 1949 team that won the NFL title, and he was a 35-year-old ironman who played both ways on the 1960 championship team. He was known as "Mr. Eagle" because he played 14 seasons for the team, more than any other player. Yet he told interviewers he wanted the Eagles to lose to New England in the Super Bowl.
"I want our (1960) team to be the last one to win it," said Bednarik, who still had not forgiven Lurie.
The story ran in hundreds of newspapers. Lurie was in Jacksonville, getting ready for the Super Bowl, when he read Bednarik's comments. "I was surprised," Lurie said. "How could someone so identified with a team root against (it)?" There was a backlash among Eagles fans who called the talk shows to voice their disappointment in Bednarik. They said he sounded like a bitter old man.
After the Eagles loss in the Super Bowl, family and friends talked to Bednarik about the damage he was doing to his reputation. They told Bednarik he was in danger of toppling off the pedestal he occupied for half a century. They urged him to drop the book issue, which they saw as petty, and get behind the Eagles once again. Bednarik finally agreed.
"I'm 80 years old, what's the point of letting these (disputes) go on?" Bednarik said. "Emma, my wife, said: 'Charlie, people think you don't like anybody.' So I wrote my letter (to the Eagles) saying I wanted to put it all to rest."
Bednarik does not deny he resents the salaries in today's NFL. The most he ever made in a season was $27,000 and that was for his final season, 1962. Like most players of that era, Bednarik worked a second job – he was a salesman for the Warner Concrete Company – to support his family. He sees players today making millions and still complaining and, yes, it makes him bitter.
"We're the ones who built this league," Bednarik said, referring to the NFL players of his generation, "and these players don't even know who we are."
Bednarik is a crusty and opinionated old cuss, which doesn't always sit well with everyone, but that should not overshadow what he was. In his book, Pro Football's 100 Greatest Players, George Allen ranked Bednarik as his No. 1 linebacker ahead of Dick Butkus, Ray Nitschke and Joe Schmidt.
In 1960, Bednarik played both center and linebacker for the Eagles last championship team. He delivered the knockout shot on the Giants' Frank Gifford and forced the fumble that lifted the Eagles to the Eastern Division title. In the championship game, he made the tackle on Green Bay's Jim Taylor that closed out the 17-13 victory. He was on the field for 139 of 142 plays that day.
Chuck Bednarik will always be an Eagle. In his heart, he knows that. Jeff Lurie knows it, too. In a season in which so much has gone wrong, a reconciliation between Bednarik and his old team would be one thing that went right.
Ray Didinger is a senior producer at NFL Films and an analyst on Comcast SportsNet's "Post-Game Live" following every Eagles game. He will be signing copies of his latest book, "The Eagles Encyclopedia," at Chickie's and Pete's on Packer Avenue on Sunday, Nov. 27, from 1 until 3 p.m.
Charles Phillip (Chuck) Bednarik was born on May 1, 1925 in Bethlehem, PA.
Chuck, nicknamed "Concrete Charley" spent all of his 14 professional NFL career years with the Philadelphia, Eagles. In 1960 the Eagles line was depleted with injuries forcing Bednarik to play offensive and defensive position as center and linebacker. In no small part that effort lead the 1960 Eagles to their second NFL Championship. In appreciation the Eagles organization gave him a bonus payment of $250.00.
Chuck Bednarik played for the University of Pennsylvania from 1945 to 1949. He was a two time All-American playing center and linebacker. Bednarik was the very first pick in the NFL in 1949, selected by the Philadelphia Eagles. He played for 14 years with the Eagles as center and linebacker, and was All-Pro eight times and played in the Pro Bowl eight times. In the 1954 Pro Bowl, he was selected as the MVP. He was a member of two World Championship teams, 1949 and 1960. In the 1960 championship game, Eagles vs. Green Bay Packers, he played 58 ½ minutes and made the game saving tackle on the last play. Chuck retired in 1962 at the age of 37. He was elected to the Pro Hall of Fame in 1967 and the College Hall of Fame in 1969. His other honors include All Time 50 Year Team, The 75 Year Two Way Team, and in 1999, the John Madden All Millennium Team. As Chuck says, "There is nothing else to be had…only Heaven."
After retiring from football Mr. Bednarik soon made a name for himself in business as a "Special Sales Representative" for the Warner Company.
Fans can contact him at:
Chuck Bednarik
6379 Winding Road
Coopersburg, Pa. 18036-9410
John
1993 Pro Set Power All-Power-Defense Gold #1
Interesting read for sure.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
jradke, that's an idea, but I'm like Dave..Rookies Only. I don't own a non-RC...That's not to say someone couldn't request a set such as this. There may be a segment of collectors who are interested, but me personally I wouldn't participate. I need every dime towards the football rookies just to stay in the game there...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Bears- Sid Luckman, Walter Payton, Johnny Morris
Bengals- Ken Anderson, Corey Dillon, Isaac Curtis
Bills- Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed
Broncos- John Elway, Terrell Davis, Rod Smith
Browns- Brian Sipe, Jim Brown, Ozzie Newsome
Bucs-Vinny Testaverde, James Wilder, Mark Carrier
Cardinals- Jim Hart, Otis Anderson, Roy Green
Chargers- Dan Fouts, LaDanian Tomlinson, Lance Alworth
Chiefs- Len Dawson, Priest Holmes, Tony Gonzalez
Colts- Johnny Unitas, Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison
Cowboys- Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, Michael Irvin
Dolphins- Dan Marino, Larry Csonka, Mark Duper
Eagles-Ron Jaworski, Wilbert Montgomery, Harold Carmichael
Falcons- Steve Bartkowski, Gerald Riggs, Terrence Mathis
49ers- Joe Montana, Joe Perry, Jerry Rice
Giants- Phil Simms, Tiki Barber, Amani Toomer
Jaguars- Mark Brunell, Fred Taylor, Jimmy Smith
Jets- Joe Namath, Curtis Martin, Don Maynard
Lions- Bobby Layne, Barry Sanders, Herman Moore
Oilers/Titans- Warren Moon, Eddie George, Earnest Givins
Packers- Brett Favre, Jim Taylor, James Lofton
Panthers- Jake Delhomme, Tim Biakabutuka, Mushin Muhammed
Patriots- Drew Bledsoe, Sam Cunningham, Stanley Morgan
Raiders- Ken Stabler, Marcus Allen, Tim Brown
Rams- Jim Everett, Eric Dickerson, Isaac Bruce
Ravens- Vinny Testaverde, Jamal Lewis, Todd Heap
Redskins-Joe Theismann, John Riggins, Art Monk
Saints- Archie Manning, Deuce McCallister, Eric Martin
Seahawks- Dave Krieg, Shaun Alexander, Steve Largent
Steelers-Terry Bradshaw, Franco Harris, John Stallworth
Texans- David Carr, Dominick Davis/Williams, Andre Johnson
Vikings- Fran Tarkenton, Robert Smith, Cris Carter
Testaverde #1 for TWO teams???Come on..lol
Some of the teams still have guys on this list from the 40s-50s...That's pretty sad.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>packers go against your statement about guys playing together. however, green would have taken taylors place if he wouldnt have been hurt in 2005 or stayed with them this year. i think he was under a 100 yds from taking over the leading rushers spot. >>
Green was just 46 yds away in fact...Only need 2 more attempts to be the all-time Packers attempts leader, but needed 29 TDs to catch Taylor...
Funny that after the discussions over Baugh vs. Jurgensen that Thiesmann is the all-time Redskins passing yardage leader...just goes to show, its not all about the numbers...You have to compare guys to their own era and peers.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
There have been a couple...Here's the 2 I know of:
HOF RC Story
This one isn't HOF RCs specific, but close. This was in the SMR:
Football Key Card Sets
With the re-grading of the Nagurski 9, I think you are going to see more pub on the set as time goes on.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thanks for sharing those links. Interesting reads on both articles. As a football player set collector, it gave me some perspective on the key card sets and their participants.
John
1993 Pro Set Power All-Power-Defense Gold #1
<< <i>shouldn't all of the Browns you placed on there be under the Ravens? >>
Nope, part of the move to Baltimore, Art Modell agreed to leave the history of the Browns in Cleveland. The new Browns assumed that history when Cleveland got its 2nd team.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'd love to see that stunt keep Modell out of the HOF.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>No one said we fans have to agree to that.
I'd love to see that stunt keep Modell out of the HOF.
Nick >>
I think it has so far, and deservedly so...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I upgraded my Jim Taylor to an 8 and my Jim Ringo to a 7 recently
No right or wrong way IMO, as each collector sets their own goals...It took me 5 years to get to 100% for the first time..Now every year with new elections you have to get back to 100%..lol
Best of luck in your quest!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Regards,
Greg M.
Frank Gatski PSA 8
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Greg M,
I think the Gatski PSA 8 is right in line with the last 3 or 4 that I've seen sell.
<< <i>Another one bites the dust!! I overpaid a touch, but it appears to be a high end 8. I have 3 more at PSA right now (Adderley, Mackey and Bell) that should all grade PSA 8 (hopefully). I have feelers out there to buy NM raw of Friedman, Kinard, Lane, McDonald and Hein. Crossing my fingers
Regards,
Greg M.
Frank Gatski PSA 8 >>
That's actually the cheapest Gatski in over 3 years...They were selling in the $450-$550 range for a long time, just recently started coming down after a bnuch have been popping up for sale on ebay and on some websites the last 3-4 months. I always wondered why they were so tough to come by even though the POP wasn't real low (37 in PSA 8, 1 higher). They used to only show up once or twice a year.
Congrats though, I think in the long term, your price will turn out to be a steal.
I'm still in need of 3 cards to get back to 100%, and all 3 are super tough.. 1948 Bowman Pete Pihos, 1951 Bowman Lou Creekmur, 1962 Fleer Billy Shaw...My goal was to get back to 100% by June 1st, which is going to be very tough considering the last 3 cards I need...So if anyone has one or more of these available, let me know!!!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I've been picking up some cards too and finally got 75%. I'm still in 18th place though. I had moved as high as 16th and then Dave and Mike jumped past me again. Such is the challenge and joy of the set though. I figure, at 75% it's still a pretty good accomplishment and hey, I'm still in the top 20. The top 10 spot is really going to be a tough one though. I would like to finish out the team sets to 100% and then retire them, then focus on the HOF and TOD sets. I've got 90%+ of the cards I need, they are just all sitting here in raw form. I just have to get them graded...
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Jason - what grade are you looking for the 1948 Pihos?
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>I was surprised there were only 2 bidders....the first bidder and myself. I'm not going to complain.
Jason - what grade are you looking for the 1948 Pihos?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Eventually, I want at least a PSA 7, but will settle for a PSA 6...I doubt I'll ever get the PSA 8 back without breaking the bank..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hopefully I can start climbing the charts again.
I can remember 3 years ago being in the top 10, but of course there was much less competition.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Anyone bidding??
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Way out of my price range though....
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
DAve
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
If I only had the funds to snag a couple of those beauties. I'm really starting to like that '35 Chicle set.
Do any of them ever have a white border or is that "toned" look just the card? The scan Jason posted of the Nagurski had a glowing white border but he said it was a little "brighter" than it actually displayed.
On a side note, I paid $90 for my PSA 2 Ken Strong because I had never seen it. I probably overpaid by a fair amount but it was the first one I had seen and I was excited to get one. As it turns out, if you go actively searching for this stuff, it does come up for sale once in a while.
Oh and that Namath looks like a great card, but that holder is just awful! What is it, a foot and a half tall?
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
<< <i>
Do any of them ever have a white border or is that "toned" look just the card? The scan Jason posted of the Nagurski had a glowing white border but he said it was a little "brighter" than it actually displayed.
>>
Josh,
All of my 35 Chicle's are scanned in my HOF RC set (link in my sig line) and my scans are virtually identical as the cards appear in person. I have a pretty good sampling of quality among my 35's. The card stock was weak, so I think its nearly if not totally impossible that any have survived without at least some toning.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
<< <i>Jason, the Battles and Edwards are gorgeous! That's about as close to "un-toned" as I've seen. >>
Only the centering keeps them from being graded higher. The corners are outstanding on both, and you are correct they are the least toned of my 35's. I used to own a Battles 8 that had a little darker borders but was better centered.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I found a new formula on the net that I have used to rate every HOF WR plus some of the top guys who are currently playing. This formula give points for things like Top 5 in the league, Pro Bowls, All-Pro selections, Super Bowl/Championship game performances, MVP, Player of the Year awards, even for retring as the all-time leader in an important category. Anyway, I ran the numbers on most of the top WRs including all of the HOFers I think the formula is pretty valid. Best thing about it, is that for the most part, it only compares the WRs to how dominant they were vs. their peers in their era. Wasn't sure how the numbers would stack up, but after ranking all the players by it, its pretty darn close I think.
Anyway, here ya go. Let me know what you think.
1- Jerry Rice- 189
2- Don Hutson- 163
3- Lance Alworth- 90
4- Marvin Harrison- 80
5- Steve Largent- 70
6- Raymond Berry- 66
7- Paul Warfield- 64
7- Cris Carter- 64
9- Pete Pihos- 63
10- Fred Biletnikoff- 62
10- Dante Lavelli- 62
12- James Lofton- 61
13- Bob Hayes- 59
13- Don Maynard- 59
15- Cliff Branch- 56
16- Bobby Mitchell- 55
16- Charley Taylor- 55
18- Torry Holt- 54
18- Tommy McDonald- 54
18- Terrell Owens- 54
21- Michael Irvin- 52
21- John Stallworth- 52
23- Tim Brown- 49
23- Tom Fears- 49
23- Andre Reed- 49
26- Art Monk- 48
26- Lynn Swann- 48
28- Elroy Hirsch- 47
28- Drew Pearson- 47
30- Billy Wilson- 45
31- Isaac Bruce- 35
31- Charlie Joiner- 35
33- Jimmy Smith 28
34- Henry Ellard- 26
35- Irving Fryar- 23
35- Wayne Millner- 23
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>I notice Monk is way down the list...... However, 4 guys below him are in the HOF... >>
Very true...You'll also notice that NON-HOFers Bob Hayes and Cliff Branch are ahead of Monk.
This is a cumulative system and once a player earns points, they keep them...I'm pretty surprised to see some of the active players as high as they are..Harrison at #4..Holt and Owens already at HOF levels...Especially since they still have time to earn more points...Since Bob Hayes is the highest NON-HOFer with 59 points, I guess 60 makes you a lock???lol
BTW, Forgot Randy Moss...His current rating is 46...And he has not earned a point since 2004..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I would like to point out that I personally am only 23 points off the bottom of this list.
Fuzz
<< <i>Jas,
I would like to point out that I personally am only 23 points off the bottom of this list.
Fuzz >>
Which would put you closer to being as good as Wayne Millner as Wayne Millner is to Art Monk!lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
After seeing your list, I still think that Billy Wilson deserves a shot at the HOF. He could easily be a veteran committe selection in the next few years.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Where would guys like Billy Howton, Max McGee and Mac Speedie rank using this formula, if you don't mind working on that? I realize Speedie had a short NFL career but if you include his AAFC totals he's gotta rank right up there with say Tom Fears.
Also, I hate to knock a Redskin, but Wayne Millner may be the worst player in the HOF. I would put Hugh Taylor or TE Jerry Smith in there before him. I guess it helped that Millner played for Notre Dame back in the 1930's. The Packers Lavie Dilwig was a better player.
Rich
Speedie- 60
Howton- 47
McGee- 28
Had he played just a few more season I think he would be in the HOF already...Military service shortened his career as it did many others from that era....The rumor is that Speedie was blackballed from HOF induction because of the feud he had with his legendary coach Paul Brown...It was bad enough to actually force Speedie to play in the CFL his last 2 years...
2 of the other 3 "triplets" from that dominant pre-Jim Brown Cleveland Browns team (Otto Graham and Marion Motley) were considered slam dunk HOFers, and are mentioned amongst the greatest players ever...All 3 played in the AAFC, so I don't think that fact has held him up...
Speedie was a finalist 3 times, to include being a Senior Candidate in 1983. Not getting in as a Senior candidate is pretty much the kiss of death...
Other Senior finalists that didn't get elected:
Willie Galimore
Marshall Goldberg
Ole Haugsrud
Bob Hayes
Jerry Kramer
Lou Rymkus
Dick Stanfel
Only TWO players were ever given a second chance at being a Senior finalist, and both got in on their 2nd try:
Lou Creekmur (1980 and 1996)
Henry Jordan (1989 and 1995)
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
***= Guys who have been HOF candidates, but not been elected.
1- Jerry Rice- 189
2- Don Hutson- 163
3- Lance Alworth- 90
4- Marvin Harrison- 80
5- Steve Largent- 70
6- Raymond Berry- 66
7- Paul Warfield- 64
7- Cris Carter- 64
9- Pete Pihos- 63
10- Fred Biletnikoff- 62
10- Dante Lavelli- 62
10- Del Shoffner- 62***
13- James Lofton- 61
14- Mac Speedie- 60***
15- Bob Hayes- 59***
15- Don Maynard- 59
17- Cliff Branch- 56***
18- Bobby Mitchell- 55
18- Charley Taylor- 55
20- Torry Holt- 54
20- Tommy McDonald- 54
20- Terrell Owens- 54
23- Michael Irvin- 52
23- John Stallworth- 52
25-Sterling Sharpe- 50***
26- Tim Brown- 49
26- Tom Fears- 49
26- Andre Reed- 49***
29- Art Monk- 48***
29- Lynn Swann- 48
31- Elroy Hirsch- 47
31- Billy Howton- 47***
31- Drew Pearson- 47***
33- Randy Moss- 46
34- Gark Clark- 45***
34- Billy Wilson- 45***
36- Harold Carmichael- 37***
37- Isaac Bruce- 35
37- Harold Jackson- 35***
37- Charlie Joiner- 35
40- John Gilliam- 34***
41- Gary Collins- 30***
42- Antonio Freeman- 29
43- Max McGee- 28***
43- Jimmy Smith- 28
44- Henry Ellard- 26***
45- Irving Fryar- 23***
45- Wayne Millner- 23
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Also, I hate to knock a Redskin, but Wayne Millner may be the worst player in the HOF. I would put Hugh Taylor or TE Jerry Smith in there before him. I guess it helped that Millner played for Notre Dame back in the 1930's. The Packers Lavie Dilwig was a better player. >>
Seriously, how is Miller in the HOF? -
76 Games
124 Catches
1,578 Yards
12 TD's
His career doesn't even come close to Jerry Rice's best season. LOL.
Mac Speedie- 60
Bob Hayes- 59
Cliff Branch- 56
Andre Reed- 49
Art Monk- 48
Billy Howton- 47
Drew Pearson- 47
Billy Wilson- 45
Max McGee- 28
Henry Ellard- 26
Irving Fryar- 23
Question: Who is the most OVERLOOKED/UNDERAPPRECIATED WR in NFL history?
IMO, McGee, Ellard and Fryar are simply not HOF caliber. Speedie, Hayes, Reed, and Monk have all been Finalists at least once. So they may be underappreciated, they are definitely not overlooked. They've all gotten looks.
That leaves the choices: Cliff Branch, Drew Pearson, Billy Howton and Billy Wilson. None of these guys have ever even been a finalist for the HOF. Branch and Pearson played in the league together from 1973-1983. Howton and Wilson played together from 1952-1960.
HOF WR's who also played significant seasons in the 1952-1960 time frame? Raymond Berry, Tom Fears, Elroy Hirsch, Dante Lavelli, Tommy McDonald, Bobby Mitchell and Pete Pihos.
1973-1983? Fred Biletnikoff, Charlie Joiner, Steve Largent, James Lofton, John Stallworth, Lynn Swann, Charley Taylor and Paul Warfield.
There are your comparisons......Opinions? Should any of these overlooked guys be in the HOF?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Obviously they don't know the market..If it sells for double that I will be the new owner...lol
My PSA 7 isn't too far removed from that one.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.