Thats the scan from the Mint State site....And it does NOT do the card justice. Here it is in its previous PSA 9 holder..
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>First ballot HOF WRs? Raymond Berry, Lance Alworth, Paul Warfield, Steve Largent....If you think Monk is in that class, you must have ONLY been watching Redskins through the years...lol >>
I agree that the second scan "glows" however it looks too contrasty to believe. Looks like photoshop got ahold of it. The Mint State scan looks more like the real card IMO... I honestly like the cream colored borders rather than the bright white....
<< <i>I agree that the second scan "glows" however it looks too contrasty to believe. Looks like photoshop got ahold of it. The Mint State scan looks more like the real card IMO... I honestly like the cream colored borders rather than the bright white....
Dave >>
Dave it's probably somewhere in between...There are also pics of it in the SGC holder and it looks much more bold in color than the Mint State scan. But probably not as "bright" as that old scan.
Josh, I think he's just another disgruntled Redskins fan. I don't blame him really...To only have 2 HOFers from that Joe Gibbs run in the 80's-90's is a travesty. I think 5 would probably be the right number and eventually Green,Grimm and Monk will make the disgruntled Redskins fans a little less testy on the subject. I'm not a Redskins fan or a Redskins hater, but I take my HOFers more seriously than most.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>GDM - do you find Jason's comments mean spirited somehow? >>
It's not really important. I'm done talking about this subject. I was sick of it a month ago.
I'm definitely don't want to be a distraction from the main point of this thread, which is amazing cards, especially after hoping to see a scan of the Nagurski when it was announced the other day.
Needless to say, as we can all see, it's breathtaking. I almost feel like the hum from the Monolith in 2001 should be playing when you look at it.
<< <i>Josh, I think he's just another disgruntled Redskins fan. >>
No, I'm somebody who, when he extends an olive branch, generally expects the other person to agree to disagree and move on, not restate the whole case again, and end with a snide, personal putdown, no matter whether it has "lol" after it or not. I have never once taken a shot at you personally throughout this whole thing. I've disputed your arguments, only. I only expect the same treatment in return.
<< <i>Josh, I think he's just another disgruntled Redskins fan. >>
No, I'm somebody who, when he extends an olive branch, generally expects the other person to agree to disagree and move on, not restate the whole case again, and end with a snide, personal putdown, no matter whether it has "lol" after it or not. I have never once taken a shot at you personally throughout this whole thing. I've disputed your arguments, only. I only expect the same treatment in return. >>
Sorry you were offended, that wasn't my intention. Just trying to illustrate my point. If you are going to throw out comments like "he's a clear first ballot HOFer" you aren't exactly extending an olive branch. SKINSFAN brought up a point directed for me and I responded. If you no longer wanted to take part or were going to have your feelings hurt over this you could have refrained.
As I've said before, I hate the fact that I always have to argue AGAINST Monk because I do think he was a top notch HOF caliber guy. But if hardcore Monk fans are going to say that he has somehow been slighted/cheated/blackballed in some conspiracy to keep him out of the HOF then I am going to respond with the reality that he was/is not a first ballot lock level player. He is as good as if not better than a few other WRs already in the HOF, but he's not one of the top 5-6 WRs of all time, which he would need to be to be considered a lock.
We can discuss this all day every day if you want, or we can as you say agree to disagree.
No hard feelings from my end, Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
On another note, Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison are sure bets for the HOF. Which other players who are still active does everyone put into that category - i.e., if they retired without playing another game, they would still be a first ballot induction? Favre is a no-brainer. I would also add Larry Allen, Jonathan Ogden, Derrick Brooks, Isaac Bruce, Tony Gonzalez, LaDainian Tomlinson, Tom Brady, Junior Seau, and Brian Urlacher to the list.
Randy Moss and Terrell Owens I think might be punished by the voters for a year or two.
I expect Orlando Pace, Will Shields, Simeon Rice, Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan, Zach Thomas, Ray Lewis, Champ Bailey, Olin Kreutz, Corey Dillon, Rod Smith, Shaun Alexander, Willie Roaf, Edgerrin James, Donovan McNabb, and Torry Holt to be sure bets for eventual election - just not necessarily first ballot at this point. [I think NFL HOF voters are more inclined to to vote for skill position players, regardless of who was more dominant.]
On another note, Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison are sure bets for the HOF. Which other players who are still active does everyone put into that category - i.e., if they retired without playing another game, they would still be a first ballot induction? Favre is a no-brainer. I would also add Larry Allen, Jonathan Ogden, Derrick Brooks, Isaac Bruce, Tony Gonzalez, Ladanian Tomlinson, Tom Brady, Junior Seau, and Brian Urlacher to the list.
Randy Moss and Terrell Owens I think might be punished by the voters for a year or two.
I expect Orlando Pace, Will Shields, Simeon Rice, Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan, Zach Thomas, Ray Lewis, Champ Bailey, Olin Kreutz, Corey Dillon, Rod Smith, Shaun Alexander, Willie Roaf, Edgerrin James, Donovan McNabb, and Torry Holt to be sure bets for eventual election - just not necessarily first ballot at this point. [I think NFL HOF voters are more inclined to to vote for skill position players, regardless of who was more dominant.]
Nick >>
For my lists, I'm not going to name anyone who still needs 5+ more seasons to become a serious candidate..
1st Ballot: Brett Favre Marvin Harrison Larry Allen Junior Seau Ray Lewis Derrick Brooks Peyton Manning
Locks, but probably not first try: Jonathan Ogden Will Shields
On their way, but not if they retired today: Terrell Owens Randy Moss--If he stays in Oakland, his chances will continue to drop Zach Thomas Champ Bailey Ladanian Tomlinson Tom Brady Torry Holt Orlando Pace Walter Jones
Getting Close, but getting old: Warren Sapp--close..I think he needs one more dominant season, and Im not sure he'll ever have another John Lynch--same as Sapp, Safety is a tough position to make HOF, just ask Steve At-water Jason Elam--Gonna be tough for a kicker..Needs about 1,000 more points..lol Adam Vinitiari--Same as above, although his "clutch" kicks will help Isaac Bruce--Needs to pad the stats and get over 1,000 catches or another ring..Otherwise, he will be punsihed for playing on that great offense Michael Strahan--Needs another Pro Bowl type season to be a lock
Long Shots: Corey Dillon--Long shot..If he can break 12,000 yards he might get considered Rod Smith--If he retires after this year, no chance..If he can keep padding the stats, then maybe..He needs another Pro Bowl type season Edgerrin James--Long shot at this point, will need a miracle playing in AZ to get to 14,000+ which will be needed by the time he becomes eligible Donovan McNabb--Needs 2-3 more dominant seasons and/or a super bowl ring.
BTW, if you look at the last 10 classes of HOFers, you will notice that the non-skill players are getting in more and more often..Favre is the next QB going in, and that's 5+ years down the road...Only a few RBs who are really worthy Emmitt, Bettis, maybe Tiki...The logjam is at WR, but with a minimum of 4 per class the non-skill position guys will get in just as quickly the next few classes..
I posted this before, but here are my predictions on the modern candidates for the next 5 classes:
2008--Cris Carter, Darrell Green, Derrick Thomas, Bob Kuechenberg 2009--Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson, Shannon Sharpe, Art Monk 2010--Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, Gary Zimmerman, Russ Grimm 2011--Deion Sanders, Willie Roaf, Jerome Bettis, Ray Guy 2012--Tim Brown, Randall McDaniel, Andre Reed, Dermontti Dawson
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I think the bronco was reholder at the sun times show. when i was there on suday someone came out of the back with that card in the slab and were looking at it compared to the on their displays in the back of the booth.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Jason, I'm a little surprised by your predictions. Mainly Rod Smith and Tom Brady. I don't disagree with most of the others. I think Brady and his coolness under pressure not to mention 3 rings in 4 years with the furthest thing from a star-studded class would make him a lock. Rod Smith has put up very good, if not pro-bowl type numbers as well as two Super Bowl rings in his career. He's been the best receiver on his team the entire time, althogh I think Javon is changing that. I think if another kicker were to get in it would have to be Morten Andersen and/or Adam Vinatieri. For decidedly different reasons, but both very deserving in my opinion. I don't think Dillon, Edge or McNabb are worthy yet and I don't see Edge or Dillon ever getting in. McNabb has a lot of upside still in my opinion however.
The rest of your "classes" all ring true with me, although I hope Randall McDaniel gets in sooner rather than later. I would like to see him in before Zimmerman but I think both are worthy. I think Owens gets in, eventually, Moss, as much as I am a fan, I don't think he makes it. At least not yet. His numbers were fantastic but I agree, the longer he stays in Oakland (and fails to stay healthy for 16 games) his chances will drop. Which is really too bad IMO.
<< <i>Jason, I'm a little surprised by your predictions. Mainly Rod Smith and Tom Brady. I don't disagree with most of the others. I think Brady and his coolness under pressure not to mention 3 rings in 4 years with the furthest thing from a star-studded class would make him a lock. Rod Smith has put up very good, if not pro-bowl type numbers as well as two Super Bowl rings in his career. He's been the best receiver on his team the entire time, althogh I think Javon is changing that. I think if another kicker were to get in it would have to be Morten Andersen and/or Adam Vinatieri. For decidedly different reasons, but both very deserving in my opinion. I don't think Dillon, Edge or McNabb are worthy yet and I don't see Edge or Dillon ever getting in. McNabb has a lot of upside still in my opinion however.
>>
Josh, I'll go into a little more detail on why I list these guys where I do.
Tom Brady, if he retired today would retire with 21,564 yds, 147 TDs, and 3 Pro Bowls. Just 6 full seasons as a starting QB...I listed him in the "on their way" category, because I think he is headed to the Hall of Fame if he continues playing at a high level for just a few more years...He's got the rings no doubt, but if he retired today? I think the argument against him would be that he didn't do it long enough. Terrell Davis would be fair comparison.
Rod Smith has compiled some great stats, but lets dig deeper. He's got 3 Pro Bowls and played in one Super Bowl. During his 12 year career, he's finished in the top 10 in receptions and yards just 4 times each...Based on what I see when I watch him play, and his number credentials, I would put him behind these WRs when it comes to going into the HOF:
Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Cris Carter, Art Monk, Andre Reed, Tim Brown, Jimmy Smith, Terrell Owens, and Isaac Bruce.
Based on how many WRs are currently in the HOF, I think its near impossible to expect all of these guys will get in. Who, of this list, would you put Rod Smith in front of? If he can get up and over 1,000 receptions, or have another Pro Bowl level season I might move him up to the "getting close but getting old" category...To me, he's a longshot simply based on the guys he is going to be compared against..Plus he REALLY fell off last year..I think he might be done...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason - of the WRs that you're comparing Rod Smith to, how many will appear on the ballot with him? My expectation is that Rice, Brown, Reed, Carter and Jimmy Smith will already be in the HOF by that point, with Owens, Bruce, and Harrison not yet being eligible. That leaves Monk - and he may already be in by then.
<< <i>Jason - of the WRs that you're comparing Rod Smith to, how many will appear on the ballot with him? My expectation is that Rice, Brown, Reed, Carter and Jimmy Smith will already be in the HOF by that point, with Owens, Bruce, and Harrison not yet being eligible. That leaves Monk - and he may already be in by then.
Nick >>
All depends on when he retires...If he retires after 2007, he would be eligible for the Class of 2013..I don't think Jimmy Smith will be in that quickly and its possible Monk or Reed could still be on the ballot, more than likely Reed. Not so sure Tim Brown is in by 2013 either...He's going to have some detractors and some things going against him...
Others that will soon follow Rod Smith on the ballot are Bruce, Harrison, TO, Moss, and Holt. I just don't see anyway Rod Smith gets compared to those guys and gets in. While he was/is a very good WR, I don't think he's on that level. Like I said, if he plays a couple more years and can put up another Pro Bowl type season, he could still climb the list. At this point, he looked done last year and would be a long shot (maybe 10-20% chance) of ever making the HOF..
Just my opinion of course, i'm not a HOF voter, but I do follow the voting patterns very closely.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Good points. It is impossible for me to put him ahead of any of the other guys you listed. He certainly did fall off last year, maybe I'm biased because I've always been a fan of his. I like Bruce but have never been a big fan of his, I suppose his numbers put him ahead of Smith, I've just always felt like Bruce was a poor mans Cris Carter. Perhaps an unfair assesment. I've always been a big Jimmy Smith fan, do you think he's a first ballot guy? There certainly are some great receivers coming up for the vote over the next few years.
It's crazy. So much of this has to do with timing. If Bruce Matthews were eligible for the first time say next year, we'd all be talking about Randall McDaniel and his 12 Pro Bowls having been inducted first ballot this year. But God forbid two OL go in together. I don't agree with the unwritten rule of (for the most part) not electing more than one player from the same position in a given class. It should be all about who's deserving, not - just as an example - "well we're electing Michael Irvin this year, so Monk will have to wait."
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I hope Marshall Faulk gets in on his 1st ballot (my biased opinion is that he deserves to do so). I'm curious what everyone else thinks. I saw him in college at S.D. State (I was going to UCSD) he ran 260 yards while injured!!
Also, I believe they should expand the number of HOF selection allowed per yer. Currently it is 3(4?) to 6 (if I remember right). I think the max should be increased to 8. Maybe generally it would break down as 2 senior spots, 1 coach/admin spot, 5 modern player spots. When the cap on HOF inductees was put in (anyone know when?), my guess is that the NFL was a much smaller league perhaps 1/2 as big. Well if you have 1/2 the number of players you will have a smaller number of stars and a smaller number of deserving inductees. I think this would allow the clearly deserving players to get in and the discussion can turn to "who" deserves to be in rather than "when" they deserve to be in.
I like your year by year lists, and agree on most counts.
Did your forget Marshall Faulk? Or leave him off on purpose for class of 2011 or 2012 ??
Will he be eligible in 2011, or does it count that you were on a roster but did not play that year ??
Gabbs >>
Faulk will be eligible in 2011, if/when he officially retires. I know the word is he will, but like Curtis Martin, haven't seen the official announcement just yet. I think Faulk is definite 1st ballot, and Curtis Martin is a lock, although possibly not first ballot in 2011.
My list of 2008-2012 predictions is based on players that are currently retired. Both of those guys would bump someone from the 2011 and 2012 classes IMO. Faulk in 2011, 1st ballot, would likely bump Bettis. Then Martin and Bettis would go in 2nd ballot in 2012 bumping Dermontti Dawson and Andre Reed down the list.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I love the HOF discussion. It never gets old.
I hope Marshall Faulk gets in on his 1st ballot (my biased opinion is that he deserves to do so). I'm curious what everyone else thinks. I saw him in college at S.D. State (I was going to UCSD) he ran 260 yards while injured!!
Also, I believe they should expand the number of HOF selection allowed per yer. Currently it is 3(4?) to 6 (if I remember right). I think the max should be increased to 8. Maybe generally it would break down as 2 senior spots, 1 coach/admin spot, 5 modern player spots. When the cap on HOF inductees was put in (anyone know when?), my guess is that the NFL was a much smaller league perhaps 1/2 as big. Well if you have 1/2 the number of players you will have a smaller number of stars and a smaller number of deserving inductees. I think this would allow the clearly deserving players to get in and the discussion can turn to "who" deserves to be in rather than "when" they deserve to be in.
Mike. >>
Mike they actually just reduced the maximum number from 7 to 6 a few years ago, while changing the senior selections from 1 to 2.
Personally, I like the lower maximum, and I like having more seniors eligible. SO many great players from years past who are finally getting that recognition. Gives a new set of voters the chance to right some of the snubs from the past. Also, 8 would be too many, even 5 modern guys is too many. They need to try and keep it as exclusive as possible. The guys who are unquestionably deserving (Barry Sanders, Marino, Reggie White kinda guys) are still going to go in with no problem. The borderline players will be debated as they should be. Very often, there are players who are remembered as being greater than they actually were. Maybe because they played in a big market or became TV announcers after their career. On the other hand, many others are slighted or have their true greatness somewhat diminished or forgotten through the years. So its good that the committee, unlike baseball, sits down as a group and has in depth discussions on those borderline players to decide if they were one of the top 6 candidates for that year.
Its sort of like All-Pro selections...If the guy isn't even one of the top 6 candidates for that HOF class that election year, is he really HOF worthy? Its reserved for the best of the best, or at least it should be.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Interesting read in this thread. I follow it a lot but don't post often.
I remain a touch suprised at the comments about the Rams wideouts of Bruce and Holt. Heck, Bruce could go in now. He played on some horrible teams before their offense changed and Holt has simply put up great -- if not all time -- numbers year in and year out. I'd rather have Holt than Moss or TO or Harrison (whom I equate more to Bruce).
Keep the thread going. It's a one of the better on-going threads on here.
Matthew
Looking for a Glen Rice Inkredible and Alex Rodriguez cards
The only player I disagree with in the discussion is Brady. If you include his post-season statistics he is very close in career yardage and touchdowns with Roger Staubach. Staubach played in a more difficult era for QB's and was selected to 6 pro bowls but Brady has more super bowl rings. I believe Staubach was a first ballot selection.
Interesting read in this thread. I follow it a lot but don't post often.
I remain a touch suprised at the comments about the Rams wideouts of Bruce and Holt. Heck, Bruce could go in now. He played on some horrible teams before their offense changed and Holt has simply put up great -- if not all time -- numbers year in and year out. I'd rather have Holt than Moss or TO or Harrison (whom I equate more to Bruce).
Keep the thread going. It's a one of the better on-going threads on here.
Matthew >>
I equate Bruce a little more closely with say a Jimmy Smith caliber player..As of right now, I'd give each of them about a 50/50 shot at getting in. If Bruce can pad the stats a little or have another Pro Bowl type season, he will increase his odds...And I don't use Jimmy Smith's name lightly..He was one of my favorite players on my hometown Jaguars, but I am a realist..He's not a lock, he didn't play his first couple of seasons, and spent his dominant years in a small market. He will have a hard time getting in. Even though, IMO, he was one of the top 3-4 dominant WRs of his era when you watch him on the field.
Holt, on his current pace, will become a first ballot guy if he plays just 3-4 more seasons. He's got the ring, he's got the Pro Bowls, and is on his way. I would actually put him in over Bruce, even now. He's been THAT good.
Thanks for the input! Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>The only player I disagree with in the discussion is Brady. If you include his post-season statistics he is very close in career yardage and touchdowns with Roger Staubach. Staubach played in a more difficult era for QB's and was selected to 6 pro bowls but Brady has more super bowl rings. I believe Staubach was a first ballot selection. >>
Staubach=Brady is actually a really good comparison IMO.
Staubach went to 6 Pro Bowls, and played in 4 Super Bowls in 11 seasons. He was top 5 in passing yardage 6 times.
Brady has gone to 3 Pro Bowls, played in 3 Super Bowls in 7 seasons. He has been top 5 in passing yardage once.
Brady's postseason record and stats, stacks up comparably to just about anyone in the history of the game. But with 6 full seasons under his belt, for me im just not ready to annoint him a LOCK HOFer just yet. If his career was ended today because of an injury, I think he would have a very good case, just like Terrell Davis has. But the guy has a good 5+ years left in him. What if he turns into Kurt Warner? Once a guy makes the LOCK list, he doesn't come off...I want to see what Brady can do for a couple more years before calling him a lock. Post-season wise, if he doesn't win another playoff game in his career, he's still got the post=season resume to warrant election...
If you look at Staubach's career, when do you think people considered him a LOCK HOFer? At the earliest, I would say 1977, which was his 9th year in the league and Roger was 35 years old. Brady is just too early to but him in that category IMO.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Faulk announced his retirement last week. I heard it on one of those New York radio talk shows that gets cable airtime (they all blend together to me).
Jason - I'm surprised you don't think Tim Brown is a 1st ballot HOFer. I see he and Cris Carter being treated the same by voters - I believe they will have the same ballot year, and the numbers balance out very well (Carter has more 1st team All-Pro selections, Brown has more Pro bowls; Carter has more TDs, Brown has more yards; catches are only 7 apart - and they retired as #2 and #3 all-time).
<< <i>Faulk announced his retirement last week. I heard it on one of those New York radio talk shows that gets cable airtime (they all blend together to me).
Jason - I'm surprised you don't think Tim Brown is a 1st ballot HOFer. I see he and Cris Carter being treated the same by voters - I believe they will have the same ballot year, and the numbers balance out very well (Carter has more 1st team All-Pro selections, Brown has more Pro bowls; Carter has more TDs, Brown has more yards; catches are only 7 apart - and they retired as #2 and #3 all-time).
Nick >>
Nick, Marshall announced that he PLANS on retiring at the NFL Meetings next week. But hasn't happened yet. Do a google search and you will see the write-ups on it.
Cris Carter is eligible next year, 2008, Tim Brown will come up in 2010 along side Jerry Rice and Emmitt Smith. Here's how I compare Carter and Tim Brown resume wise:
Carter-8 -Pro Bowls, 3 -1st Team All-Pro selections, 1101 rec. ,13899 yds, 130 TDs in 234 career games. Brown-9 -Pro Bowls, 0 -1st Team All-Pro Selections, 1094 rec. ,14934 yds, 100 TDs in 255 career games.
PER GAME averages this comes out to: Carter 4.71 rec, 59.40 yds, 0.56 TDs Brown 4.29 rec, 58.56 yds, 0.39 TDs
Pretty close, but Carter was the more dominant guy by a small margin. First Team All-Pro selections, as I have stated in the past, tend to carry more weight with the voters than Pro Bowl selections. Tim Brown having zero is going to hurt him. Means he was never considered one of the top 2 WRs in the league in any given year. Based on what I've seen of these guys in game action, Carter was the more surehanded guy. In the red zone he was deadly, probably the best ever in that respect. Brown was more of the deep threat and had more speed. 2 of his Pro Bowls were actually as the kick returner, not as a WR.
The biggest difference I think is that Carter will be the top offensive skill player on the board next year. Tim Brown will be behind Rice and Emmitt in 2010, and possibly Faulk, Curtis Martin and Bettis in 2011. IMO, he will get in on the 3rd try, 2012. He is a lock, just not first ballot material.
Just my opinion of course... Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Brown has 1 1st team All-Pro selection - it was as a KR his rookie season. Assuming he isn't first ballot, he should be second ballot - no way are the voters going to pick 3 RBs in one year, and Brown would likely rank ahead of Bettis in the abstract anyway. Is Bettis really that much different from Eddie George?
<< <i>Brown has 1 1st team All-Pro selection - it was as a KR his rookie season. Assuming he isn't first ballot, he should be second ballot - no way are the voters going to pick 3 RBs in one year, and Brown would likely rank ahead of Bettis in the abstract anyway. Is Bettis really that much different from Eddie George?
Nick >>
Don't forget Deion Sanders and Willie Roaf in 2011 along with all those RBs..I agree all 3 RBs won't get in the same year. Unless any new retirees pop up, 2012 should be a fairly weak year for new candidates. 2010 and 2011 will be too strong for Brown to get in. I think Bettis will likely get bumped to 2012, and its possible Curtis Martin could get bumped a year down as well.
Unfortunately, making the All-Pro Team as a KR is worth about as much as not making it at all when it comes to HOF induction. Although it might help Brown's case as he was one of the best return men for his first few years.
Thing to remember is there are 4 first ballot WRs since 1970---Berry, Alworth, Warfield, Largent. Rice is really the only pending HOF that belongs in that class, although I think Carter will add his name because next year will be weak. If he were up in 2010, I wouldn't think he would be a first ballot guy either. The only other WR to go in on his first try was Don Hutson.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thought Id say hi! Im the infamous Fight4OldDC on the registery. Been lurking for quite a long time and finally thought it time to come out of my shell. Have met many of you off the Board and to the rest of you -- Hello. I have great respect for all on the Board and for this part of the registery. Its been a blast and hope to get to know more of you. Feel free to email with with upgrade offers, questions or just to say hi. Speak to you all soon.
Glad you could join us... Hope your ride is as enjoyable as mine has been. Meeting other collectors is the the greatest thrill for this hobby and it seems we have a close knit group here in the Football HOF Rookie set....
<< <i>I promise I will scan. I dont own one (a scanner) so thats been part of the problem. Feel like Kinkos will charge me a fortune. Any recommendations? >>
All that money you spent on those cards, you can go get a scanner! Tell ya what, if you want, I'll send you my old scanner so I can see some pics of those things! I need to see some of these cards!
I would have to disagree with you Jason on Carter be more dominant than Brown . If you just take Brown's stats from 1993 - 2002 you'll find he had one of the best 10 years of any WR 11,922 of his 15,000 he had in his career - that's throwing out 7 years. 2 he lost to a major knee injury at the BEGINNING of his career.
Another factor that helped Carter numbers was playing alongside Moss for all those season's. Carter was just another Art Monk till Moss came to town. Just my opion, and it might hurt that I'm jaded being a Raider fan, but I watched enough games to atleast state my opion. And lets face it , alot of Good Wr didn't make ALL-PRO - And it makes it even harder to make it ALL-PRO when All the WR are playing for one spot. Of course the best WR of ALL-TIME Jerry Rice took the other spot.
<< <i>I promise I will scan. I dont own one (a scanner) so thats been part of the problem. Feel like Kinkos will charge me a fortune. Any recommendations? >>
Hey Jon. Welcome to the the boards. You've really got me cracking up over here. With the money your amazing collection must have cost, you're worrying about overpaying for a scanner. Anyway, I bought an Epson Perfection V100 Scanner about 2 months ago, and I love it. It's fast, the scans are awesome, and it was only in the $100 range. Take a peek at my set and you'll see what I mean.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Good scanner with the right settings really makes a difference...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Just curious but what settings are you changing? Just brightness/contrast etc?
I mucked with my HP for quite some time til I got the PSA label color just right, which happened to make the rest of the card look better as well. I messed with EVERYTHING on that stupid thing. lol
One thing I'd throw out there about Cris Carter....over the past 25 years if you listed high-profile wide receivers based on who had the surest hands and who had the best footwork on sideline and end-zone catches - he'd have to be on the short list of top 3 or so. Personally, if I had to choose a WR from the past 25 years to line up opposite Jerry Rice in the red-zone, I'd probably pick Carter. Yeah, he has his detractors and playing with Moss certainly elevated his stats, but what an amazing player who was a thrill to watch catch passes.
<< <i>Just curious but what settings are you changing? Just brightness/contrast etc?
I mucked with my HP for quite some time til I got the PSA label color just right, which happened to make the rest of the card look better as well. I messed with EVERYTHING on that stupid thing. lol >>
I didn't adjust brightness or contrast.
1200 DPI, turn on "descreen", Then resize to 10%..Otherwise, the 1200 DPI makes the file too big. That way, you get the high quality pic yet still under PSA's maximum file size.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
One thing I'd throw out there about Cris Carter....over the past 25 years if you listed high-profile wide receivers based on who had the surest hands and who had the best footwork on sideline and end-zone catches - he'd have to be on the short list of top 3 or so. Personally, if I had to choose a WR from the past 25 years to line up opposite Jerry Rice in the red-zone, I'd probably pick Carter. Yeah, he has his detractors and playing with Moss certainly elevated his stats, but what an amazing player who was a thrill to watch catch passes. >>
For red zone/sideline receivers, Cris Carter is easily #1 on my list. He was the best I've ever seen at positioning himself so that the QB could throw a pass that only Carter had a chance to catch. He had already played in 5 Pro Bowls, had (5) 1,000+ yds seasons, (4) 10+ TD seasons and 2 seasons with 122 catches each BEFORE Moss got there. I think it helped him extend his career a couple of years, but he only played 4 of his 16 seasons with Moss.
The guy went to 8 STRAIGHT Pro Bowls 1993-2000...He was dominant.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
C.C. was the man. I had the pleasure, as a Vikings fan, of watching him every weekend. He even managed to teach the gangly Moss how to do some footwork on the sidelines and in the corner of the end zone. His last couple of years in MN, Moss got great at the quick out near the end zone and would do a little leap in the air and double-tap his toes just inside the OB line. He learned that from CC. CC had some of the best hands and greatest body and foot control I've ever seen. Not to mention is story is a great one. If I ever manage to make it to Canton for an induction ceremony, CC would be the year. A terrific role model, actually a pretty nice guy (aside from the time he ran away from my brother and I about 9 years ago) but that's a different thread.
I agree. Carter had both the best hands - especially along the sidelines - and the best ability to score in the red zone than any WR I've seen before or since. This is gonna sound crazy, but the only player whose hands I would compare to Cris Carter's are Chris Chambers. Chambers actually drops a lot of balls, but he's also made a plethora of highlight reel catches. And I'm not talking about catches where he ran the wrong route or turned the wrong way either. Catches he had no business even coming close to making. But back to CC, he was a magician. Can't wait to see him in Canton!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I'm looking to buy the following cards (raw) and was quoted the amounts below:
1. 1948 Leaf - #19 George McAfee: 1 EX at $100 (PSA 5 SMR $70) 2. 1948 Leaf - #29 Charlie Trippi: 1 EX at $72.50 (PSA 5 SMR $60)
Both cards are in EX condition and the seller wants $172.50 when PSA 5's book for $130. The cards seem to be solid EX examples, but I'm paying a premium of 33% over what the book value of a PSA 5 would be. Do you think this is a good deal?
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
You know the drill, Greg. The vast majority of times you can throw SMR out the window when trying to determine actual value...ESPECIALLY with vintage HOF rookies. I'm not very familiar with that era, but I'd venture to say that you were offered a fair deal.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I'm looking to buy the following cards (raw) and was quoted the amounts below:
1. 1948 Leaf - #19 George McAfee: 1 EX at $100 (PSA 5 SMR $70) 2. 1948 Leaf - #29 Charlie Trippi: 1 EX at $72.50 (PSA 5 SMR $60)
Both cards are in EX condition and the seller wants $172.50 when PSA 5's book for $130. The cards seem to be solid EX examples, but I'm paying a premium of 33% over what the book value of a PSA 5 would be. Do you think this is a good deal?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Well, book value is fairly meaningless...But the recent sales prices for each of these cards over the past year tells me that you can find both of these for at or lower than the price you are being quoted. And you don't have to worry about getting them graded, because they are already PSA 5'd.
Personally I would pass on raw 1948's unless I am getting a deal or getting a card i think might pull a higher grade.
Jason
Edited for stats:
I show 4 Trippi PSA 5's selling for $65 or less in the past year. 3 McAfee PSA 5's selling for under $85. These are final auction prices, no shipping or anything included.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>First ballot HOF WRs? Raymond Berry, Lance Alworth, Paul Warfield, Steve Largent....If you think Monk is in that class, you must have ONLY been watching Redskins through the years...lol >>
Magnanimity isn't really your strong suit, is it?
GDM - do you find Jason's comments mean spirited somehow?
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I honestly like the cream colored borders rather than the bright white....
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>I agree that the second scan "glows" however it looks too contrasty to believe. Looks like photoshop got ahold of it. The Mint State scan looks more like the real card IMO...
I honestly like the cream colored borders rather than the bright white....
Dave >>
Dave it's probably somewhere in between...There are also pics of it in the SGC holder and it looks much more bold in color than the Mint State scan. But probably not as "bright" as that old scan.
Josh, I think he's just another disgruntled Redskins fan. I don't blame him really...To only have 2 HOFers from that Joe Gibbs run in the 80's-90's is a travesty. I think 5 would probably be the right number and eventually Green,Grimm and Monk will make the disgruntled Redskins fans a little less testy on the subject. I'm not a Redskins fan or a Redskins hater, but I take my HOFers more seriously than most.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>GDM - do you find Jason's comments mean spirited somehow? >>
It's not really important. I'm done talking about this subject. I was sick of it a month ago.
I'm definitely don't want to be a distraction from the main point of this thread, which is amazing cards, especially after hoping to see a scan of the Nagurski when it was announced the other day.
Needless to say, as we can all see, it's breathtaking. I almost feel like the hum from the Monolith in 2001 should be playing when you look at it.
<< <i>Josh, I think he's just another disgruntled Redskins fan. >>
No, I'm somebody who, when he extends an olive branch, generally expects the other person to agree to disagree and move on, not restate the whole case again, and end with a snide, personal putdown, no matter whether it has "lol" after it or not. I have never once taken a shot at you personally throughout this whole thing. I've disputed your arguments, only. I only expect the same treatment in return.
<< <i>
<< <i>Josh, I think he's just another disgruntled Redskins fan. >>
No, I'm somebody who, when he extends an olive branch, generally expects the other person to agree to disagree and move on, not restate the whole case again, and end with a snide, personal putdown, no matter whether it has "lol" after it or not. I have never once taken a shot at you personally throughout this whole thing. I've disputed your arguments, only. I only expect the same treatment in return. >>
Sorry you were offended, that wasn't my intention. Just trying to illustrate my point. If you are going to throw out comments like "he's a clear first ballot HOFer" you aren't exactly extending an olive branch. SKINSFAN brought up a point directed for me and I responded. If you no longer wanted to take part or were going to have your feelings hurt over this you could have refrained.
As I've said before, I hate the fact that I always have to argue AGAINST Monk because I do think he was a top notch HOF caliber guy. But if hardcore Monk fans are going to say that he has somehow been slighted/cheated/blackballed in some conspiracy to keep him out of the HOF then I am going to respond with the reality that he was/is not a first ballot lock level player. He is as good as if not better than a few other WRs already in the HOF, but he's not one of the top 5-6 WRs of all time, which he would need to be to be considered a lock.
We can discuss this all day every day if you want, or we can as you say agree to disagree.
No hard feelings from my end,
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Rub it in, why dontcha.
On another note, Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison are sure bets for the HOF. Which other players who are still active does everyone put into that category - i.e., if they retired without playing another game, they would still be a first ballot induction? Favre is a no-brainer. I would also add Larry Allen, Jonathan Ogden, Derrick Brooks, Isaac Bruce, Tony Gonzalez, LaDainian Tomlinson, Tom Brady, Junior Seau, and Brian Urlacher to the list.
Randy Moss and Terrell Owens I think might be punished by the voters for a year or two.
I expect Orlando Pace, Will Shields, Simeon Rice, Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan, Zach Thomas, Ray Lewis, Champ Bailey, Olin Kreutz, Corey Dillon, Rod Smith, Shaun Alexander, Willie Roaf, Edgerrin James, Donovan McNabb, and Torry Holt to be sure bets for eventual election - just not necessarily first ballot at this point. [I think NFL HOF voters are more inclined to to vote for skill position players, regardless of who was more dominant.]
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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<< <i>Yeah, yeah.
Rub it in, why dontcha.
On another note, Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison are sure bets for the HOF. Which other players who are still active does everyone put into that category - i.e., if they retired without playing another game, they would still be a first ballot induction? Favre is a no-brainer. I would also add Larry Allen, Jonathan Ogden, Derrick Brooks, Isaac Bruce, Tony Gonzalez, Ladanian Tomlinson, Tom Brady, Junior Seau, and Brian Urlacher to the list.
Randy Moss and Terrell Owens I think might be punished by the voters for a year or two.
I expect Orlando Pace, Will Shields, Simeon Rice, Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan, Zach Thomas, Ray Lewis, Champ Bailey, Olin Kreutz, Corey Dillon, Rod Smith, Shaun Alexander, Willie Roaf, Edgerrin James, Donovan McNabb, and Torry Holt to be sure bets for eventual election - just not necessarily first ballot at this point. [I think NFL HOF voters are more inclined to to vote for skill position players, regardless of who was more dominant.]
Nick >>
For my lists, I'm not going to name anyone who still needs 5+ more seasons to become a serious candidate..
1st Ballot:
Brett Favre
Marvin Harrison
Larry Allen
Junior Seau
Ray Lewis
Derrick Brooks
Peyton Manning
Locks, but probably not first try:
Jonathan Ogden
Will Shields
On their way, but not if they retired today:
Terrell Owens
Randy Moss--If he stays in Oakland, his chances will continue to drop
Zach Thomas
Champ Bailey
Ladanian Tomlinson
Tom Brady
Torry Holt
Orlando Pace
Walter Jones
Getting Close, but getting old:
Warren Sapp--close..I think he needs one more dominant season, and Im not sure he'll ever have another
John Lynch--same as Sapp, Safety is a tough position to make HOF, just ask Steve At-water
Jason Elam--Gonna be tough for a kicker..Needs about 1,000 more points..lol
Adam Vinitiari--Same as above, although his "clutch" kicks will help
Isaac Bruce--Needs to pad the stats and get over 1,000 catches or another ring..Otherwise, he will be punsihed for playing on that great offense
Michael Strahan--Needs another Pro Bowl type season to be a lock
Long Shots:
Corey Dillon--Long shot..If he can break 12,000 yards he might get considered
Rod Smith--If he retires after this year, no chance..If he can keep padding the stats, then maybe..He needs another Pro Bowl type season
Edgerrin James--Long shot at this point, will need a miracle playing in AZ to get to 14,000+ which will be needed by the time he becomes eligible
Donovan McNabb--Needs 2-3 more dominant seasons and/or a super bowl ring.
BTW, if you look at the last 10 classes of HOFers, you will notice that the non-skill players are getting in more and more often..Favre is the next QB going in, and that's 5+ years down the road...Only a few RBs who are really worthy Emmitt, Bettis, maybe Tiki...The logjam is at WR, but with a minimum of 4 per class the non-skill position guys will get in just as quickly the next few classes..
I posted this before, but here are my predictions on the modern candidates for the next 5 classes:
2008--Cris Carter, Darrell Green, Derrick Thomas, Bob Kuechenberg
2009--Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson, Shannon Sharpe, Art Monk
2010--Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, Gary Zimmerman, Russ Grimm
2011--Deion Sanders, Willie Roaf, Jerome Bettis, Ray Guy
2012--Tim Brown, Randall McDaniel, Andre Reed, Dermontti Dawson
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
The rest of your "classes" all ring true with me, although I hope Randall McDaniel gets in sooner rather than later. I would like to see him in before Zimmerman but I think both are worthy. I think Owens gets in, eventually, Moss, as much as I am a fan, I don't think he makes it. At least not yet. His numbers were fantastic but I agree, the longer he stays in Oakland (and fails to stay healthy for 16 games) his chances will drop. Which is really too bad IMO.
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<< <i>Jason, I'm a little surprised by your predictions. Mainly Rod Smith and Tom Brady. I don't disagree with most of the others. I think Brady and his coolness under pressure not to mention 3 rings in 4 years with the furthest thing from a star-studded class would make him a lock. Rod Smith has put up very good, if not pro-bowl type numbers as well as two Super Bowl rings in his career. He's been the best receiver on his team the entire time, althogh I think Javon is changing that. I think if another kicker were to get in it would have to be Morten Andersen and/or Adam Vinatieri. For decidedly different reasons, but both very deserving in my opinion. I don't think Dillon, Edge or McNabb are worthy yet and I don't see Edge or Dillon ever getting in. McNabb has a lot of upside still in my opinion however.
>>
Josh, I'll go into a little more detail on why I list these guys where I do.
Tom Brady, if he retired today would retire with 21,564 yds, 147 TDs, and 3 Pro Bowls. Just 6 full seasons as a starting QB...I listed him in the "on their way" category, because I think he is headed to the Hall of Fame if he continues playing at a high level for just a few more years...He's got the rings no doubt, but if he retired today? I think the argument against him would be that he didn't do it long enough. Terrell Davis would be fair comparison.
Rod Smith has compiled some great stats, but lets dig deeper. He's got 3 Pro Bowls and played in one Super Bowl. During his 12 year career, he's finished in the top 10 in receptions and yards just 4 times each...Based on what I see when I watch him play, and his number credentials, I would put him behind these WRs when it comes to going into the HOF:
Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Cris Carter, Art Monk, Andre Reed, Tim Brown, Jimmy Smith, Terrell Owens, and Isaac Bruce.
Based on how many WRs are currently in the HOF, I think its near impossible to expect all of these guys will get in. Who, of this list, would you put Rod Smith in front of? If he can get up and over 1,000 receptions, or have another Pro Bowl level season I might move him up to the "getting close but getting old" category...To me, he's a longshot simply based on the guys he is going to be compared against..Plus he REALLY fell off last year..I think he might be done...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>Jason - of the WRs that you're comparing Rod Smith to, how many will appear on the ballot with him? My expectation is that Rice, Brown, Reed, Carter and Jimmy Smith will already be in the HOF by that point, with Owens, Bruce, and Harrison not yet being eligible. That leaves Monk - and he may already be in by then.
Nick >>
All depends on when he retires...If he retires after 2007, he would be eligible for the Class of 2013..I don't think Jimmy Smith will be in that quickly and its possible Monk or Reed could still be on the ballot, more than likely Reed. Not so sure Tim Brown is in by 2013 either...He's going to have some detractors and some things going against him...
Others that will soon follow Rod Smith on the ballot are Bruce, Harrison, TO, Moss, and Holt. I just don't see anyway Rod Smith gets compared to those guys and gets in. While he was/is a very good WR, I don't think he's on that level. Like I said, if he plays a couple more years and can put up another Pro Bowl type season, he could still climb the list. At this point, he looked done last year and would be a long shot (maybe 10-20% chance) of ever making the HOF..
Just my opinion of course, i'm not a HOF voter, but I do follow the voting patterns very closely.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
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I like your year by year lists, and agree on most counts.
Did your forget Marshall Faulk? Or leave him off on purpose for class of 2011 or 2012 ??
Will he be eligible in 2011, or does it count that you were on a roster but did not play that year ??
Gabbs
I hope Marshall Faulk gets in on his 1st ballot (my biased opinion is that he deserves to do so). I'm curious what everyone else thinks. I saw him in college at S.D. State (I was going to UCSD) he ran 260 yards while injured!!
Also, I believe they should expand the number of HOF selection allowed per yer. Currently it is 3(4?) to 6 (if I remember right). I think the max should be increased to 8. Maybe generally it would break down as 2 senior spots, 1 coach/admin spot, 5 modern player spots. When the cap on HOF inductees was put in (anyone know when?), my guess is that the NFL was a much smaller league perhaps 1/2 as big. Well if you have 1/2 the number of players you will have a smaller number of stars and a smaller number of deserving inductees. I think this would allow the clearly deserving players to get in and the discussion can turn to "who" deserves to be in rather than "when" they deserve to be in.
Mike.
<< <i>Jason,
I like your year by year lists, and agree on most counts.
Did your forget Marshall Faulk? Or leave him off on purpose for class of 2011 or 2012 ??
Will he be eligible in 2011, or does it count that you were on a roster but did not play that year ??
Gabbs >>
Faulk will be eligible in 2011, if/when he officially retires. I know the word is he will, but like Curtis Martin, haven't seen the official announcement just yet. I think Faulk is definite 1st ballot, and Curtis Martin is a lock, although possibly not first ballot in 2011.
My list of 2008-2012 predictions is based on players that are currently retired. Both of those guys would bump someone from the 2011 and 2012 classes IMO. Faulk in 2011, 1st ballot, would likely bump Bettis. Then Martin and Bettis would go in 2nd ballot in 2012 bumping Dermontti Dawson and Andre Reed down the list.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I love the HOF discussion. It never gets old.
I hope Marshall Faulk gets in on his 1st ballot (my biased opinion is that he deserves to do so). I'm curious what everyone else thinks. I saw him in college at S.D. State (I was going to UCSD) he ran 260 yards while injured!!
Also, I believe they should expand the number of HOF selection allowed per yer. Currently it is 3(4?) to 6 (if I remember right). I think the max should be increased to 8. Maybe generally it would break down as 2 senior spots, 1 coach/admin spot, 5 modern player spots. When the cap on HOF inductees was put in (anyone know when?), my guess is that the NFL was a much smaller league perhaps 1/2 as big. Well if you have 1/2 the number of players you will have a smaller number of stars and a smaller number of deserving inductees. I think this would allow the clearly deserving players to get in and the discussion can turn to "who" deserves to be in rather than "when" they deserve to be in.
Mike. >>
Mike they actually just reduced the maximum number from 7 to 6 a few years ago, while changing the senior selections from 1 to 2.
Personally, I like the lower maximum, and I like having more seniors eligible. SO many great players from years past who are finally getting that recognition. Gives a new set of voters the chance to right some of the snubs from the past. Also, 8 would be too many, even 5 modern guys is too many. They need to try and keep it as exclusive as possible. The guys who are unquestionably deserving (Barry Sanders, Marino, Reggie White kinda guys) are still going to go in with no problem. The borderline players will be debated as they should be. Very often, there are players who are remembered as being greater than they actually were. Maybe because they played in a big market or became TV announcers after their career. On the other hand, many others are slighted or have their true greatness somewhat diminished or forgotten through the years. So its good that the committee, unlike baseball, sits down as a group and has in depth discussions on those borderline players to decide if they were one of the top 6 candidates for that year.
Its sort of like All-Pro selections...If the guy isn't even one of the top 6 candidates for that HOF class that election year, is he really HOF worthy? Its reserved for the best of the best, or at least it should be.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Interesting read in this thread. I follow it a lot but don't post often.
I remain a touch suprised at the comments about the Rams wideouts of Bruce and Holt. Heck, Bruce could go in now. He played on some horrible teams before their offense changed and Holt has simply put up great -- if not all time -- numbers year in and year out. I'd rather have Holt than Moss or TO or Harrison (whom I equate more to Bruce).
Keep the thread going. It's a one of the better on-going threads on here.
Matthew
<< <i>Jason,
Interesting read in this thread. I follow it a lot but don't post often.
I remain a touch suprised at the comments about the Rams wideouts of Bruce and Holt. Heck, Bruce could go in now. He played on some horrible teams before their offense changed and Holt has simply put up great -- if not all time -- numbers year in and year out. I'd rather have Holt than Moss or TO or Harrison (whom I equate more to Bruce).
Keep the thread going. It's a one of the better on-going threads on here.
Matthew >>
I equate Bruce a little more closely with say a Jimmy Smith caliber player..As of right now, I'd give each of them about a 50/50 shot at getting in. If Bruce can pad the stats a little or have another Pro Bowl type season, he will increase his odds...And I don't use Jimmy Smith's name lightly..He was one of my favorite players on my hometown Jaguars, but I am a realist..He's not a lock, he didn't play his first couple of seasons, and spent his dominant years in a small market. He will have a hard time getting in. Even though, IMO, he was one of the top 3-4 dominant WRs of his era when you watch him on the field.
Holt, on his current pace, will become a first ballot guy if he plays just 3-4 more seasons. He's got the ring, he's got the Pro Bowls, and is on his way. I would actually put him in over Bruce, even now. He's been THAT good.
Thanks for the input!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>The only player I disagree with in the discussion is Brady. If you include his post-season statistics he is very close in career yardage and touchdowns with Roger Staubach. Staubach played in a more difficult era for QB's and was selected to 6 pro bowls but Brady has more super bowl rings. I believe Staubach was a first ballot selection. >>
Staubach=Brady is actually a really good comparison IMO.
Staubach went to 6 Pro Bowls, and played in 4 Super Bowls in 11 seasons. He was top 5 in passing yardage 6 times.
Brady has gone to 3 Pro Bowls, played in 3 Super Bowls in 7 seasons. He has been top 5 in passing yardage once.
Brady's postseason record and stats, stacks up comparably to just about anyone in the history of the game. But with 6 full seasons under his belt, for me im just not ready to annoint him a LOCK HOFer just yet. If his career was ended today because of an injury, I think he would have a very good case, just like Terrell Davis has. But the guy has a good 5+ years left in him. What if he turns into Kurt Warner? Once a guy makes the LOCK list, he doesn't come off...I want to see what Brady can do for a couple more years before calling him a lock. Post-season wise, if he doesn't win another playoff game in his career, he's still got the post=season resume to warrant election...
If you look at Staubach's career, when do you think people considered him a LOCK HOFer? At the earliest, I would say 1977, which was his 9th year in the league and Roger was 35 years old. Brady is just too early to but him in that category IMO.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason - I'm surprised you don't think Tim Brown is a 1st ballot HOFer. I see he and Cris Carter being treated the same by voters - I believe they will have the same ballot year, and the numbers balance out very well (Carter has more 1st team All-Pro selections, Brown has more Pro bowls; Carter has more TDs, Brown has more yards; catches are only 7 apart - and they retired as #2 and #3 all-time).
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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<< <i>Faulk announced his retirement last week. I heard it on one of those New York radio talk shows that gets cable airtime (they all blend together to me).
Jason - I'm surprised you don't think Tim Brown is a 1st ballot HOFer. I see he and Cris Carter being treated the same by voters - I believe they will have the same ballot year, and the numbers balance out very well (Carter has more 1st team All-Pro selections, Brown has more Pro bowls; Carter has more TDs, Brown has more yards; catches are only 7 apart - and they retired as #2 and #3 all-time).
Nick >>
Nick, Marshall announced that he PLANS on retiring at the NFL Meetings next week. But hasn't happened yet. Do a google search and you will see the write-ups on it.
Cris Carter is eligible next year, 2008, Tim Brown will come up in 2010 along side Jerry Rice and Emmitt Smith. Here's how I compare Carter and Tim Brown resume wise:
Carter-8 -Pro Bowls, 3 -1st Team All-Pro selections, 1101 rec. ,13899 yds, 130 TDs in 234 career games.
Brown-9 -Pro Bowls, 0 -1st Team All-Pro Selections, 1094 rec. ,14934 yds, 100 TDs in 255 career games.
PER GAME averages this comes out to:
Carter 4.71 rec, 59.40 yds, 0.56 TDs
Brown 4.29 rec, 58.56 yds, 0.39 TDs
Pretty close, but Carter was the more dominant guy by a small margin. First Team All-Pro selections, as I have stated in the past, tend to carry more weight with the voters than Pro Bowl selections. Tim Brown having zero is going to hurt him. Means he was never considered one of the top 2 WRs in the league in any given year. Based on what I've seen of these guys in game action, Carter was the more surehanded guy. In the red zone he was deadly, probably the best ever in that respect. Brown was more of the deep threat and had more speed. 2 of his Pro Bowls were actually as the kick returner, not as a WR.
The biggest difference I think is that Carter will be the top offensive skill player on the board next year. Tim Brown will be behind Rice and Emmitt in 2010, and possibly Faulk, Curtis Martin and Bettis in 2011. IMO, he will get in on the 3rd try, 2012. He is a lock, just not first ballot material.
Just my opinion of course...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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<< <i>Brown has 1 1st team All-Pro selection - it was as a KR his rookie season. Assuming he isn't first ballot, he should be second ballot - no way are the voters going to pick 3 RBs in one year, and Brown would likely rank ahead of Bettis in the abstract anyway. Is Bettis really that much different from Eddie George?
Nick >>
Don't forget Deion Sanders and Willie Roaf in 2011 along with all those RBs..I agree all 3 RBs won't get in the same year. Unless any new retirees pop up, 2012 should be a fairly weak year for new candidates. 2010 and 2011 will be too strong for Brown to get in. I think Bettis will likely get bumped to 2012, and its possible Curtis Martin could get bumped a year down as well.
Unfortunately, making the All-Pro Team as a KR is worth about as much as not making it at all when it comes to HOF induction. Although it might help Brown's case as he was one of the best return men for his first few years.
Thing to remember is there are 4 first ballot WRs since 1970---Berry, Alworth, Warfield, Largent. Rice is really the only pending HOF that belongs in that class, although I think Carter will add his name because next year will be weak. If he were up in 2010, I wouldn't think he would be a first ballot guy either. The only other WR to go in on his first try was Don Hutson.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jon
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Its great to see you join us hear. We have all loved seeing your collection grow. Now most of us would love to see scans of those beauties.
Again Welcome!!
Jay
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>I promise I will scan. I dont own one (a scanner) so thats been part of the problem. Feel like Kinkos will charge me a fortune. Any recommendations? >>
All that money you spent on those cards, you can go get a scanner!
Tell ya what, if you want, I'll send you my old scanner so I can see some pics of those things! I need to see some of these cards!
-Josh
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
If you just take Brown's stats from 1993 - 2002 you'll find he had one of the best 10 years of any WR 11,922 of his 15,000 he had in his career - that's throwing out 7 years. 2 he lost to a major knee injury at the BEGINNING of his career.
Another factor that helped Carter numbers was playing alongside Moss for all those season's. Carter was just another Art Monk till Moss came to town.
Just my opion, and it might hurt that I'm jaded being a Raider fan, but I watched enough games to atleast state my opion.
And lets face it , alot of Good Wr didn't make ALL-PRO - And it makes it even harder to make it ALL-PRO when All the WR are playing for one spot. Of course the best WR of ALL-TIME Jerry Rice took the other spot.
By the way Welcome Jon !!!!
<< <i>I promise I will scan. I dont own one (a scanner) so thats been part of the problem. Feel like Kinkos will charge me a fortune. Any recommendations? >>
Hey Jon. Welcome to the the boards. You've really got me cracking up over here. With the money your amazing collection must have cost, you're worrying about overpaying for a scanner.
Scan 2 is HP ScanJet...
Good scanner with the right settings really makes a difference...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I mucked with my HP for quite some time til I got the PSA label color just right, which happened to make the rest of the card look better as well. I messed with EVERYTHING on that stupid thing. lol
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
One thing I'd throw out there about Cris Carter....over the past 25 years if you listed high-profile wide receivers based on who had the surest hands and who had the best footwork on sideline and end-zone catches - he'd have to be on the short list of top 3 or so. Personally, if I had to choose a WR from the past 25 years to line up opposite Jerry Rice in the red-zone, I'd probably pick Carter. Yeah, he has his detractors and playing with Moss certainly elevated his stats, but what an amazing player who was a thrill to watch catch passes.
<< <i>Just curious but what settings are you changing? Just brightness/contrast etc?
I mucked with my HP for quite some time til I got the PSA label color just right, which happened to make the rest of the card look better as well. I messed with EVERYTHING on that stupid thing. lol >>
I didn't adjust brightness or contrast.
1200 DPI, turn on "descreen", Then resize to 10%..Otherwise, the 1200 DPI makes the file too big. That way, you get the high quality pic yet still under PSA's maximum file size.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Welcome aboard Jon! Amazing collection!
One thing I'd throw out there about Cris Carter....over the past 25 years if you listed high-profile wide receivers based on who had the surest hands and who had the best footwork on sideline and end-zone catches - he'd have to be on the short list of top 3 or so. Personally, if I had to choose a WR from the past 25 years to line up opposite Jerry Rice in the red-zone, I'd probably pick Carter. Yeah, he has his detractors and playing with Moss certainly elevated his stats, but what an amazing player who was a thrill to watch catch passes. >>
For red zone/sideline receivers, Cris Carter is easily #1 on my list. He was the best I've ever seen at positioning himself so that the QB could throw a pass that only Carter had a chance to catch. He had already played in 5 Pro Bowls, had (5) 1,000+ yds seasons, (4) 10+ TD seasons and 2 seasons with 122 catches each BEFORE Moss got there. I think it helped him extend his career a couple of years, but he only played 4 of his 16 seasons with Moss.
The guy went to 8 STRAIGHT Pro Bowls 1993-2000...He was dominant.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My man-love for him is purely plutonic of course.
-Josh
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
1. 1948 Leaf - #19 George McAfee: 1 EX at $100 (PSA 5 SMR $70)
2. 1948 Leaf - #29 Charlie Trippi: 1 EX at $72.50 (PSA 5 SMR $60)
Both cards are in EX condition and the seller wants $172.50 when PSA 5's book for $130. The cards seem to be solid EX examples, but I'm paying a premium of 33% over what the book value of a PSA 5 would be. Do you think this is a good deal?
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>I'm looking to buy the following cards (raw) and was quoted the amounts below:
1. 1948 Leaf - #19 George McAfee: 1 EX at $100 (PSA 5 SMR $70)
2. 1948 Leaf - #29 Charlie Trippi: 1 EX at $72.50 (PSA 5 SMR $60)
Both cards are in EX condition and the seller wants $172.50 when PSA 5's book for $130. The cards seem to be solid EX examples, but I'm paying a premium of 33% over what the book value of a PSA 5 would be. Do you think this is a good deal?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Well, book value is fairly meaningless...But the recent sales prices for each of these cards over the past year tells me that you can find both of these for at or lower than the price you are being quoted. And you don't have to worry about getting them graded, because they are already PSA 5'd.
Personally I would pass on raw 1948's unless I am getting a deal or getting a card i think might pull a higher grade.
Jason
Edited for stats:
I show 4 Trippi PSA 5's selling for $65 or less in the past year. 3 McAfee PSA 5's selling for under $85. These are final auction prices, no shipping or anything included.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.