I have a 1991 Pro Set John Randle PSA 10 for $50 delivered if anyone is interested.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
With the addition of Russ Grimm and Ricky Jackson there are now 9 HOFers who's rookie cards come out of the 1984 Topps Football set. Is anyone aware of another set that has this many Rookie HOF cards in it?
<< <i>With the addition of Russ Grimm and Ricky Jackson there are now 9 HOFers who's rookie cards come out of the 1984 Topps Football set. >>
There's actually 10 HOF rookies from the '84 set: Dickerson, Elway, Green, Grimm, Jackson, Long, Marino, Slater, Stephenson and Tippett. M. Andersen will likely make it 11 one day. I don't know if there's anyone else with a rookie card from the '84 set that will ever get in.
In terms of modern sets, '89 Score comes the closest. There's currently 7 HOF rookie cards from the set, and Brown, Carter and Deion will make 10. I suppose At-water could make it 11 at some point, but it appears highly unlikely now.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>With the addition of Russ Grimm and Ricky Jackson there are now 9 HOFers who's rookie cards come out of the 1984 Topps Football set. Is anyone aware of another set that has this many Rookie HOF cards in it? >>
They are not yet all in the HOF, but I believe the '89 Score set will have 10:
1. B. Sanders 2. D. Sanders 3. Aikman 4. D. Thomas 5. T. Thomas 6. Matthews 7. Irvin 8. C. Carter 9. Woodson 10. T. Brown
<< <i>Greenwood is going to have a tough time getting past Humphrey. >>
I would hate for it to wind up being a zero sum game between them, because they're both quite deserving in my opinion.
The best way to look at Guy is to compare him to the guys who came before him. I agree that in terms of effectiveness, Roby is very close to him. It's undeniably a limited function of the game, but the two kicking disciplines are individual specialties in the modern game. I think they're going to have to eventually recognize Punters part in that.
<< <i>Greenwood is going to have a tough time getting past Humphrey. >>
I would hate for it to wind up being a zero sum game between them, because they're both quite deserving in my opinion.
The best way to look at Guy is to compare him to the guys who came before him. I agree that in terms of effectiveness, Roby is very close to him. It's undeniably a limited function of the game, but the two kicking disciplines are individual specialties in the modern game. I think they're going to have to eventually recognize Punters part in that. >>
I don't think we can say Ray Guy has gone unrecognized. He's been a HOF finalist 7 times. The voters have discussed his candidacy 7 times, which puts him in a very small class of players who can say they were respected enough to have their HOF candidacy discussed and voted on. But the bottom line is, when you have to choose between John Elway, Jerry Rice, Lawrence Taylor, etc, etc, etc, and you are limited to just 5 spots, its basically impossible to place a Punter in front of them, and I agree with the thinking. Its a part of the game, just as long snapper and PAT holder are part of the game. Small parts, and honestly just less important than many other parts.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
IMO there's one senior candidate who's a no-brainer HOFer - Billy Howton.
Comparing him to his contemporaries who were HOFers, I'd rank him ahead of Lavelli, Hirsch, and Fears, about even with McDonald, and behind only Pihos, Mitchell, and Berry. He retired as the all-time leader in receptions and receiving yards (breaking Don Hutson's records).
He was the Packers leading receiver every season he was there, was the Browns leading receiver his season with them (though they didn't pass much, having Jim Brown in the backfield), and then went to the expansion Cowboys, who he led in catches 2 of the next 3 seasons (at an age when most WRs in that era had retired).
<< <i>Since we are talking snubs...Who are your top 10 ALL-TIME HOF snubs...Opinions on who you think should be in, not who you think will or won't, but if you were a voter, who would you put in. Look through the Modern and Senior future HOF sets and see what you come up with.....Here's mine:
1-Shannon Sharpe 2-Cris Carter 3-Tommy Nobis 4-Jerry Kramer 5-Richard Dent 6-Bob Kuechenberg 7-Dermontti Dawson 8-Randy Gradishar 9-Mick Tingelhoff 10-Tim Brown >>
In no particular order, from my own reading and research , and from talking with former players and Hall of Famers that I have been fortunate to meet , my top 10 snubs are : Al " OX " Wistert Billy Howton Randy Gradishar Bob Kuechenberg Mick Tinglehoff Tommy Nobis Jerry Kramer Dave Robinson Lavvie Dilweg Duke Slater These guys are all more than deserving, but , in my lifetime, I would bet that not more than 4 or 5 ever get elected. Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
<< <i>Wow, that has to be the quickest EVER update of this set after a HOF announcement. But, uh, they did miss one pretty important enshrinee...... >>
I betcha that means that we have to vote on the Emmitt since he has multiple rookies.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Shouldn't the RC from the Future set just carry over? As silly as it sounds, I think they just forgot him (although CLEARLY he's overshadowed by the great Jerry Rice being inducted the same year, how unfortunate for Emmitt).
<< <i>IMO there's one senior candidate who's a no-brainer HOFer - Billy Howton.
Comparing him to his contemporaries who were HOFers, I'd rank him ahead of Lavelli, Hirsch, and Fears, about even with McDonald, and behind only Pihos, Mitchell, and Berry. He retired as the all-time leader in receptions and receiving yards (breaking Don Hutson's records).
He was the Packers leading receiver every season he was there, was the Browns leading receiver his season with them (though they didn't pass much, having Jim Brown in the backfield), and then went to the expansion Cowboys, who he led in catches 2 of the next 3 seasons (at an age when most WRs in that era had retired).
Nick >>
I actually talked Billy Howton, Del Shofner and a couploe of other old time WRs with a senior committee HOF voter a year or so ago. His response.
"Shofner was a all-decade selection in the 1960s and deserves to be discussed for the Hall of Fame. Gary Collins and Boyd Dowler also were all-decade performers in the 1960s who deserve to be discussed. If you were one of the best players of your generation, you deserve to be discussed among the best players of all time. Unfortunately for all 3 of those guys, with the explosion of receiving numbers in the last 10-15-20 years, they will never get the credit for being good players that they were. Nor are they likely to be discussed. Their window of opportunity would have been from about 1975-85. It came and went and their names never came up."
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>They put Andy Russell in my Floyd Little spot. >>
Yeah, same here.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
well a lot of former Packers on the outside looking in. but i am sure other teams can say that too.
kramer robinson butler horton dowler fritsch
maybe others too.
Jason, do you know if some of the voters have something against teams such as the Packers and Bears that have quite a high number in the HOF already for voting in non-sure fire candiates??
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>well a lot of former Packers on the outside looking in. but i am sure other teams can say that too.
kramer robinson butler horton dowler fritsch
maybe others too.
Jason, do you know if some of the voters have something against teams such as the Packers and Bears that have quite a high number in the HOF already for voting in non-sure fire candiates?? >>
Well, I don't think there is anything against any specific FRANCHISE, but I have heard it stated many times that specific teams set the standard for how many HOFers from one particular team can have. This has hurt Kramer, Dave Robinson, LC Greenwood and Donnie Shell specifiically, as well as hurting Cliff Harris and Chuck Howley of the Cowboys. For example, the argument being if the 70's Steelers have 9 guys in, and the 70s Cowboys already have 7 guys in, then its not fair to but more Cowboys in because the Steelers were so much better during that time...
Butler is hurt by the Safety haters...Its funny because it used to be said Offensive Guards got the least respect of any full time starting position..But it seems they have made a concerted effort over the last 10 years or so to get more guards in the HOF..Maybe one day that will happen with the Safeties..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> This has hurt Kramer, Dave Robinson, LC Greenwood and Donnie Shell specifiically, as well as hurting Cliff Harris and Chuck Howley of the Cowboys. For example, the argument being if the 70's Steelers have 9 guys in, and the 70s Cowboys already have 7 guys in, then its not fair to but more Cowboys in because the Steelers were so much better during that time... >>
I think that same argument (specifically the Steelers component of it) has hurt some deserving Raider candidates.
I hate Cliff Harris with a passion and would have loved to have seen Lambert stomp him into the turf in SB X, but he belongs in the HOF.
<< <i> This has hurt Kramer, Dave Robinson, LC Greenwood and Donnie Shell specifiically, as well as hurting Cliff Harris and Chuck Howley of the Cowboys. For example, the argument being if the 70's Steelers have 9 guys in, and the 70s Cowboys already have 7 guys in, then its not fair to but more Cowboys in because the Steelers were so much better during that time... >>
I think that same argument (specifically the Steelers component of it) has hurt some deserving Raider candidates.
I hate Cliff Harris with a passion and would have loved to have seen Lambert stomp him into the turf in SB X, but he belongs in the HOF. >>
Yep, the 70's Raiders are another victim. Madden may have been the last of them.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I just saw the new team of the decade is on-line and there a few cards I would change. Here is the checklist:
1992 STADIUM CLUB DARREN WOODSON 1.00 1993 BOWMAN WILLIE ROAF 1.00 1993 SP WILL SHIELDS 1.00 1993 ULTRA MICHAEL STRAHAN 1.00 1994 BOWMAN KEVIN MAWAE 1.00 1994 PLAYOFF LARRY ALLEN 1.00 1995 SP WARREN SAPP 1.00 1995 SP DERRICK BROOKS 1.00 1995 SP TY LAW 1.00 1996 BOWMAN'S BEST RAY LEWIS 1.00 1996 FINEST BRIAN DAWKINS 1.00 1996 SP JONATHAN OGDEN 1.00 1996 SP TERRELL OWENS 1.00 1996 SP MARVIN HARRISON 1.00 1996 SP ZACH THOMAS 1.00 1997 PACIFIC PHILADELPHIA ADAM VINATIERI 1.00 1997 SP AUTHENTIC ORLANDO PACE 1.00 1997 SP AUTHENTIC WALTER JONES 1.00 1997 SP AUTHENTIC TONY GONZALEZ 1.00 1997 SP AUTHENTIC JASON TAYLOR 1.00 1997 SP AUTHENTIC RONDE BARBER 1.00 1998 SP AUTHENTIC PEYTON MANNING 1.00 1998 SP AUTHENTIC RANDY MOSS 1.00 1998 SP AUTHENTIC CHARLES WOODSON 1.00 1999 SP AUTHENTIC EDGERRIN JAMES 1.00 1999 SP AUTHENTIC TORRY HOLT 1.00 1999 SP AUTHENTIC CHAMP BAILEY 1.00 1999 ULTRA LA'ROI GLOVER 1.00 2000 FLEER TRADITION SHANE LECHLER 1.00 2000 SP AUTHENTIC DANTE HALL 1.00 2000 SP AUTHENTIC TOM BRADY 1.00 2000 SP AUTHENTIC BRIAN URLACHER 1.00 2000 SP AUTHENTIC JAMAL LEWIS 1.00 2000 SP AUTHENTIC SHAUN ALEXANDER 1.00 2001 CROWN ROYALE STEVE HUTCHINSON 1.00 2001 SP AUTHENTIC RICHARD SEYMOUR 1.00 2001 TOPPS JOEY PORTER 1.00 2001 TOPPS CHROME LADAINIAN TOMLINSON 1.00 2001 UPPER DECK MVP DAVID AKERS 1.00 2002 FINEST DWIGHT FREENEY 1.00 2002 PACIFIC LORENZO NEAL 1.00 2002 TOPPS CHROME ED REED 1.00 2002 TOPPS CHROME JULIUS PEPPERS 1.00 2002 UPPER DECK XL OLIN KREUTZ 1.00 2002 UPPER DECK XL ALAN FANECA 1.00 2003 LEAF ROOKIES AND STARS ANTONIO GATES 1.00 2003 SP AUTHENTIC TROY POLAMALU 1.00 2003 TOPPS CHROME KEVIN WILLIAMS 1.00 2005 LEAF ROOKIES AND STARS JOSH CRIBBS 1.00 2005 TOPPS CHROME DEMARCUS WARE 1.00 2006 SCORE BRIAN MOORMAN 1.00 2006 TOPPS CHROME DEVIN HESTER
2001 SP AUTHENTIC RICHARD SEYMOUR is an auto card and should be '01 Topps chrome #282 as in the All-Time Patriots team 2002 FINEST DWIGHT FREENEY - 2002 Topps chrome #171 was used in the All-Time Colts set 2002 PACIFIC LORENZO NEAL - 1993 Wild Card Super Chrome #248 is his RC
<< <i>I just saw the new team of the decade is on-line and there a few cards I would change. Here is the checklist:
2001 SP AUTHENTIC RICHARD SEYMOUR is an auto card and should be '01 Topps chrome #282 as in the All-Time Patriots team 2002 FINEST DWIGHT FREENEY - 2002 Topps chrome #171 was used in the All-Time Colts set 2002 PACIFIC LORENZO NEAL - 1993 Wild Card Super Chrome #248 is his RC >>
Super Chrome was an insert, but the regular Wild Card is the one...These were the 3 I spotted also and just e-mailed PSA about it...They also left off Darren Sharper, card numbers and didn't weight it...
Hopefully can get these fixed. I wish they woulda waited until we figured out 1st team but oh well!
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How do Jeff Feagles stats stand up against Guy and Roby? And how come no one talks about Lee Roy Jordan? In my mind he was at least as good as Nobis,if not better, and I hate the Cowboys. One last thing----the HOF should be for the great, those players who dominated their positions and determined the outcome of games, and not for the "very good" who may have amassed huge stats but never really dominated.
<< <i>How do Jeff Feagles stats stand up against Guy and Roby? And how come no one talks about Lee Roy Jordan? In my mind he was at least as good as Nobis,if not better, and I hate the Cowboys. One last thing----the HOF should be for the great, those players who dominated their positions and determined the outcome of games, and not for the "very good" who may have amassed huge stats but never really dominated. >>
Feagles has played a long time and has over 1700 punts in his career. But none of his averages are comparable. He was a slightly above average Punter who's played forever...Thats it..
Jordan is routinely among the final 15 senior candidates every year. Problem is he and Chuck Howley played together and split votes..Not to mention the number of Cowboys that have goen into the HOF the last 5 years or so. It's going to be awhile before a Cowboy is again selected as a Senior candidate.
Agreed, it should be for dominant players. That is how I define a HOFer. But, there's 44 voters, and many don't know jack about the history of the game and therefore have no idea how to vote and who to pick. If the presenter does a good job and sells the guy, they will vote for them. Sucks, but what can you do? It's a democracy and majority rules,
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jason, do you know who presents for the Bears, I vote to replace that guy. Is it Dan Pompei? >>
I don't think it's the presentation that's keeping Dent out. He's not one of those guys the voters look at and say "HOFer, no question, no debate" ala Jerry Rice or Emmitt...He's also not one of the newly discovered guys, the longshot that the voters seem to be picking one every year. That guy this year was Rickey Jackson. Other recents being Fred Dean, Tippett, Wehrli. Guys that some voters get persuaded to vote for using the thinking that the guy might not get another chance.
Dent is in the Russ Grimm, Sharpe, Derrick Thomas, Gary Zimmerman class of guys...Who the voters ASSUME will eventually get in (and Dent will). So it usually comes down to luck of the draw. This year it was John Randle instead of Dent. You look ahead and his competition in that class of guys on the defensive side of the ball and the only one left is Cortez Kennedy. With a DT going this year (Randle), there's no doubt Dent will make it within the next 2 selections.
Let's not overhype him. He's been waiting like 8 years of his 20 years of being eligible. He wasn't Reggie White. HOF caliber, sure, but far from a lock first ballot kinda guy. In the grand scheme of things its not really that shocking that he's having to wait a few years. I know it sucks when guys like Rickey Jackson, Ralph Wilson, Fred Dean, Andre Tippett and Roger Wehrli go in before him. You could say the same for Shannon Sharpe and Cris Carter...But, its just how the game is played. You get your upper class locks, you get your lower class longshots, and you get your middle class guys who have to wait awhile for induction while watching the lower class guys go in ahead of them...
Dent will get in though, and when he does all will be forgotten.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
OK, so now that we have two players with RCs in the '90s, where is the best place to find auction pricing similar to VCP (which stops at '89) for the Emmitt and Randle RCs? Modern Card Guide is the only one I know of, but I'm not a big fan of the interface. Any others?
<< <i>OK, so now that we have two players with RCs in the '90s, where is the best place to find auction pricing similar to VCP (which stops at '89) for the Emmitt and Randle RCs? Modern Card Guide is the only one I know of, but I'm not a big fan of the interface. Any others?
Jasen >>
Jasen:
VCP has just added the 1990's... Problem is, they are adding material to the database from "now" on. There's no history, per se...
I agree about Karras and Kramer. One of the reasons I don't pay too much (if any) attention to the voting process and rumors about who's going in or not. I collect any and all players who I deem to be Hall worthy or of significance to the game. So it pretty much means I play around in the stats archives and listen to those who really know the game and read up on players. If they pique my interest I collect the card. It's been an awesome way to learn about the history of the game and its players.
In Australia their "Aussie Rules" football, which is a cross between every ball sport I've seen (basketball, football and soccer plus more), has a Hall of Fame with a "Legends" section. As we all can agree on, there are a few players that are locks for 1st ballot entry. The Jim Browns and Jerry Rice's of the game, then there are locks for eventual admission to the HOF and then there are the "what the??" guys who get in while everyone's looking the other way. Over here, the Rice's and Brown's get "Legend" status.
What makes it freaky is that if a guy is admitted to the regular HOF, he can be elevated to Legend status at a later date. You should see the punchups in the media about whether guys should get in or not. I don't think there's any perfect solution -- other than entrusting the admissions to knowledgeable and unbiased selectors. I've yet to meet even one person who meets that criteria, present company included. One of my father in law's best mates is a footy player from the late 50's, who sits on the selection committee. His biggest pet peeve are the stats heads who often base their best player selections on who had the best totals, without taking into account the intangibles and whether a player was so good he was "tagged" (the Aussie term for shadowed or double/triple teamed) by multiple players. He argues that those are the guys who get burned most often in the selection process. He goes as far as to say that only ex-players or coaches should be selectors. The media isn't high on his list of credible experts. By his own admission, once the era's players start to die off there's really no one who can accurately pick worthy HOF entrants. I mentioned that if a guy who played in the 50's hasn't gotten in by 2010 an argument can be made he doesn't deserve to be in. Well, that led to one of the most entertaining lunches I've ever had. He invited me to one of his "Bored Meetings" -- once a month he and a bunch of ex-teammates get together and have a long lunch. (And yes, they spell in Bored and not Board.) George mentioned my "theory" and the guys then spent the next couple of hours talking about the 4-5 guys not in the HOF that should have been locks. Guys that forced the other team to play the other side of the field, guys with stats that looked mediocre, but guys that scared the ever living crap out of the opposition. Changed my opinion forever about the HOF and what it means. It's for the fans, not the players -- although as they said, the players still love the honor.
I'm a fan, first and foremost, and I like the HOF as a monument to excellence. But as a realist, I know that as soon as just 1 guy who's not a lock gets in the dilution effect starts. I'll enjoy the HOF's in all 4 sports for what they are -- a great spectacle. In the meantime I'll continue to collect RC's of players who made/make the game more fun to watch.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
Well stated Vince! Your sentiments are spot on as they in jolly old England
Q. Do they make Aussie rules football cards? Rugby Cards? IF so, do they go way back and what might be considered vintage?
Q. Did you get to see any of Northern Trust? Riviera did extremely well by the way. The course held up wonderfully even with 2.25" of rain on Fri. and play was never halted. I spoke to four PGA tour officials who said our superintendint deserved a medal. Steve Stricker won (what a boring dude he is) and is now no. 2 in the world.
Just to make you jealous, I am playing Cypress Point (and then Monterey Peninsula CC) in March. I have been waiting 35 years for Cypress. Even if I don't break 90, I more than anything want to hit the 16th in reg. I have visualized myself busting a driver into the wind on a cool and foggy day a thousand times. Then standing over a 25 birdie putt and sinking it. What could be better? I already have enough cards...........
OK guys. PSA fixed all of the incorrect cards on the 2000 Decade set with the exception of the Dwight Freeney Finest. Reason being that someone already registered it. Probably the guy who bought one for $12 on ebay yesterday.
Anyway, I have requested that PSA send out a poll to the Registrant to vote/choose either Finest or Topps Chrome. If you hvae a dog in this fight and care to vote make sure you register your set ASAP. Poll will only go to those who have registered.
No doubt the Topps Chrome WILL BE the card when we eventually add it to the Future HOF and HOF sets...Its already on the Colts set and sells for much more than the Finest, which runs about $10 for a PSA 10....
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>exception of the Dwight Freeney Finest. Reason being that someone already registered it. Probably the guy who bought one for $12 on ebay yesterday. >>
LOL, just covering my bases in case they wouldn't take the topps chrome. I'll delete it.
<< <i>exception of the Dwight Freeney Finest. Reason being that someone already registered it. Probably the guy who bought one for $12 on ebay yesterday. >>
LOL, just covering my bases in case they wouldn't take the topps chrome. I'll delete it. >>
Was that you? Hopefully you are the only one, I havent looked through the sets.
I will e-mail Gayle back and tell her.
Then it will just be getting the grade weights updated.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Freeney has been corrected to the Topps Chrome now as well.
Everything looks right to me (minus the weights). Anyone else see any discrepancies?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I always wondered why Karras isn't in. Is it because of the betting scandal? And if so, how come Hornung wasn't affected? >>
Hornung apologized and asked forgiveness...Karras never did...While I think that affected his candidacy when he was a modern guy, whats hurting him as a senior candidate is that many believe that he simply wasn't dominant enough for long enough.
Personally I think he is worthy, but certainly a borderline candidate and not a 1st ballot guy who'd been shunned simply because of the gambling.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jim, you shouldn't be getting any joy from taunting me like that about Cypress. I'd play there in a lightning and hail storm, in the dark, with right-handed clubs and wearing plus-fours, all while singing Yankee Doodle if I had to. In the meantime I'll have to be happy with Royal Melbourne, Metropolitan and Kingston Heath -- also playing New South Wales (La Perouse) in April.
You're a lucky man, enjoy it.
Riviera looked great, although it always does. There's something to be said about the course curator being the highest paid staff member at every golf course. They're worth (more) than their weight in gold.
And yeah, they've got vintage cricket, footy and rugby cards. Scanlan's started footy making cards in the 40's and there some cigarette cards from earlier. The cricket cards were produced in the UK and they date back to the early 1900's. Rugby is about the same as footy.
When I got over here, those cards are what got me back into the hobby. Figured while I was here (only supposed to be a couple of years --- 10+ years ago!!) I might as well learn about the Aussie sports legends. Very affordable too. Like crazy cheap.
Just watching the Opening Ceremony and am very homesick. The plan was to be there for Feb but we just had a baby girl a few days ago so TV will have to do. I'm tormenting a few buddies back home with my semi-final and Gold Medal game hockey tickets.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
<< <i>I always wondered why Karras isn't in. Is it because of the betting scandal? And if so, how come Hornung wasn't affected? >>
Hornung apologized and asked forgiveness...Karras never did...While I think that affected his candidacy when he was a modern guy, whats hurting him as a senior candidate is that many believe that he simply wasn't dominant enough for long enough.
Personally I think he is worthy, but certainly a borderline candidate and not a 1st ballot guy who'd been shunned simply because of the gambling.
Jason >>
Thanks for that info. I was young and impressionable when Karras played and I just remember how that line containing Roger Brown and Darris McCord was tough.
<< <i>I always wondered why Karras isn't in. Is it because of the betting scandal? And if so, how come Hornung wasn't affected? >>
Hornung apologized and asked forgiveness...Karras never did...While I think that affected his candidacy when he was a modern guy, whats hurting him as a senior candidate is that many believe that he simply wasn't dominant enough for long enough.
Personally I think he is worthy, but certainly a borderline candidate and not a 1st ballot guy who'd been shunned simply because of the gambling.
Jason >>
I didn't know Karras never apologized for his betting issues. Good for him.
But Jason how does Lebeau and Charlie Sanders both get in before Karras? Karras played 12 years. Not a short career. He has more pro bowls than Lebeau four to three. Plus Karras was first team all-pro three times and second team around five times in the 1960's. Blowing away Lebeau who had zero all-pro's.
Because Lebeau is still an active coach, his exploits there shouldn't even be considered yet in the voting for the HOF until he's five years retired from coaching. And if they did factor in coaching, they they take into consideration his 12-33 record as a head coach?
If they're putting in Lebeau for his 50 years in Pro Football than let's put in Bucko Kilroy too.
So on the basis of their playing record only, and taking the gambling suspension off the table, Karras was a way better player than Lebeau. Lebeau wasn't even in the top eight of the best def. backs during his playing days. Karras certainly was among the best eight def. linemen during his playing days.
I guess it's all politics and who's pushing for your HOF nomination the hardest.
<< <i> But Jason how does Lebeau and Charlie Sanders both get in before Karras? Karras played 12 years. Not a short career. He has more pro bowls than Lebeau four to three. Plus Karras was first team all-pro three times and second team around five times in the 1960's. Blowing away Lebeau who had zero all-pro's.
Because Lebeau is still an active coach, his exploits there shouldn't even be considered yet in the voting for the HOF until he's five years retired from coaching. And if they did factor in coaching, they they take into consideration his 12-33 record as a head coach?
If they're putting in Lebeau for his 50 years in Pro Football than let's put in Bucko Kilroy too.
So on the basis of their playing record only, and taking the gambling suspension off the table, Karras was a way better player than Lebeau. Lebeau wasn't even in the top eight of the best def. backs during his playing days. Karras certainly was among the best eight def. linemen during his playing days.
I guess it's all politics and who's pushing for your HOF nomination the hardest. >>
BINGO....If you have the right people pushing your cause, that seems to be a big factor lately in the senior picks...Make no mistake..LeBeau was selected and inducted 99.9% due to his coaching and innovations on defense..Of course the voters would never say that, but no way he ever sniffs it as only a player...
I have NO CLUE where Charlie Sanders came from or how/why he made the HOF...Really don't...
Based on the early grumblings, my belief as of this moment is that the will be selecting an O-lineman and a LB this year...I think Kuechenberg is leading the O-Line pack, and Nobis leading a very crowded LB pack...Those names could change on a dime, but I think the positions are pretty solid bets...Karras has made the final 15 seniors from time to time but not every year..Good news is, he made it last year for the first time since 2006...So there's still hope for him...I think the next D-Lineman will be either Greenwood or Humphrey again though believe it or not...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I have NO CLUE where Charlie Sanders came from or how/why he made the HOF...Really don't... >>
Every now and then, they reach back and elect a guy only us oldsters remember. Jimmy Johnson (the Niners CB) for example. Plus, I think they're still making up for the long time it took them to elect any TEs at all.
I know it probably wouldn't make you too happy but I would love to see Raymond Chester get in eventually.
<< <i>I have NO CLUE where Charlie Sanders came from or how/why he made the HOF...Really don't... >>
Every now and then, they reach back and elect a guy only us oldsters remember. Jimmy Johnson (the Niners CB) for example. Plus, I think they're still making up for the long time it took them to elect any TEs at all.
I know it probably wouldn't make you too happy but I would love to see Raymond Chester get in eventually.
And Karras is way, way overdue. >>
Sanders was definitely the top TE in the Senior Pool....But just based on the small amount of game film I've ever seen on the guy, I really didn't see HOF type dominance...Just a solid, good player for a long period...I just think there were/are better candidates in the Senior Pool than Sanders...I could say the same for most of the senior selections in the last 5 years...They need a new system for selecting senior candidates..Sending 5 guys to a room in Canton for a day and half, to me, leaves too much room for error..
If Ray Chester ever gets elected to the HOF, they might as well close up shop..I mean put Kyle Brady in at that point...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> I really didn't see HOF type dominance...Just a solid, good player for a long period...
Jason >>
As others on this thread have previously indicated, I think this is something that can be said for quite a few inductees over the last few years. Even more disturbing is hearing many of the voters this year say that all of the final 15 were equally deserving and should all be in Canton at some point. I don't think there's any question that it's becoming less the Hall of Fame and more the Hall of the Very Good. At least with Emmitt this year there is yet another Cardinal going into the HOF.
<< <i> I really didn't see HOF type dominance...Just a solid, good player for a long period...
Jason >>
As others on this thread have previously indicated, I think this is something that can be said for quite a few inductees over the last few years. Even more disturbing is hearing many of the voters this year say that all of the final 15 were equally deserving and should all be in Canton at some point. I don't think there's any question that it's becoming less the Hall of Fame and more the Hall of the Very Good. At least with Emmitt this year there is yet another Cardinal going into the HOF.
Jasen >>
Jasen, I am not sure of exactly what you mean and would like you to explain to me. Your 2nd sentence , breaking it into two parts. 1st part : " Even more disturbing is hearing many of the voters this year say that all of the final 15 were equally deserving." Well , I agree, they may not be all EQUALLY deserving, I mean Andre Reed is not as equally deserving as Jerry Rice, and Roger Craig is not as EQUALLY deserving as Emmitt Smith, but I'm telling you, having lived in Canton my whole life , and I was born a few years BEFORE there was a Hall of Fame, and have been going to many Hall events for many, many years, from what I have seen, ALL Hall of Famers are treated EQUALLY by The Hall of Fame. 2nd part: "and should all be in Canton at some point" I agree with that 100% as well. I ABSOLUTELY expect everyone of these 15 to be in The Hall within a few years. In my opinion, everyone of the 15 finalists were among the absolute best at their positions for at least 5 or six years MINIMUM. Has ANYONE ever been elected to the Hall that didn't deserve it? MAYBE . But... having said that, compared to Baseball or Basketball, ( I admit, I don't know diddly about hockey ), I think the Football HoF has BY FAR the highest % of people in there that SHOULD be in there. If you get time, go to the Hall website. Read Pete Fierle's blog titled " The best selection process in sports" Is it perfect..... maybe not. I think having 6 to 10 Hall of Famers addressing the voting members on the merits of each possible enshrinee is a good idea. But I know that I'll take the way football does it, over all of the clowns that vote for baseball and basketball any day of the week. What I want to know is, exactly WHAT is so disturbing to you? Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
so why do they often use the non-signed, like base topps chrome when clearly their 'best' card (like Freeney) is the signed Contenders RC? There were plenty made. John
<< <i>so why do they often use the non-signed, like base topps chrome when clearly their 'best' card (like Freeney) is the signed Contenders RC? There were plenty made. John >>
#1- Because many have very low print runs. What is the exact number of Freeney Contender auto's out there? Adding cards which were production limited means at some point, you exclude any further collectors from the set. ANY CARD running less than 1000 (well 999 due to 2001 topps chrome) I would personally vote against. I see the HOF set as a mainstream set for the masses. As one of the original creators of this set 7 years ago, I've watched it grow from 1 to 111 collectors, and I think our choices of cards along the way has done nothing but help increase the popularity.
#2- Because autographed cards GET THEIR OWN SETS. I can't put a non-auto Topps Chrome in an auto set, so why should auto cards be allowed into our mainstream sets? They are more valuable ONLY due to the autograph and or the limited prints due to the autograph, and not the card. This set in particular is a card collection and not an autograph collection. We add the most valuable/popular mainstream cards. Not autos, jerseys, inserts or any of the other modern gimmick cards.
Of course these are just one man's opinion, and most issues on this set are decided by the masses. If you think it is that big of a deal, request PSA to change it. They will send out a vote and let the collectors decide. Just keep in mind, that the Decade sets are not feeder sets. Meaning, just because it is on this set, doesn;t mean it will be the card used on the HOF RC or Future HOF RC sets. I think most who collect the decade sets also collect the HOF set, so I would assume most would desire to have the same cards. But there are cases in which that is not the case..Junior Seau and Reggie White come to mind as examples. The FUTURE HOF set however is a feeder set. Whatever card we vote to the modern set will transfer (no vote between different cards needed) to the HOF RC set once the player is inducted.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>so why do they often use the non-signed, like base topps chrome when clearly their 'best' card (like Freeney) is the signed Contenders RC? There were plenty made. John >>
Amen John......I'm one of the few here that would rather have the most valuable card with a serial # of at least 1K. I'm in the minority according to the voting done on the Ed Reed card to be used.
Comments
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Is anyone aware of another set that has this many Rookie HOF cards in it?
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>With the addition of Russ Grimm and Ricky Jackson there are now 9 HOFers who's rookie cards come out of the 1984 Topps Football set. >>
There's actually 10 HOF rookies from the '84 set: Dickerson, Elway, Green, Grimm, Jackson, Long, Marino, Slater, Stephenson and Tippett. M. Andersen will likely make it 11 one day. I don't know if there's anyone else with a rookie card from the '84 set that will ever get in.
In terms of modern sets, '89 Score comes the closest. There's currently 7 HOF rookie cards from the set, and Brown, Carter and Deion will make 10. I suppose At-water could make it 11 at some point, but it appears highly unlikely now.
<< <i>With the addition of Russ Grimm and Ricky Jackson there are now 9 HOFers who's rookie cards come out of the 1984 Topps Football set.
Is anyone aware of another set that has this many Rookie HOF cards in it? >>
They are not yet all in the HOF, but I believe the '89 Score set will have 10:
1. B. Sanders
2. D. Sanders
3. Aikman
4. D. Thomas
5. T. Thomas
6. Matthews
7. Irvin
8. C. Carter
9. Woodson
10. T. Brown
Jasen
<< <i>Greenwood is going to have a tough time getting past Humphrey. >>
I would hate for it to wind up being a zero sum game between them, because they're both quite deserving in my opinion.
The best way to look at Guy is to compare him to the guys who came before him. I agree that in terms of effectiveness, Roby is very close to him. It's undeniably a limited function of the game, but the two kicking disciplines are individual specialties in the modern game. I think they're going to have to eventually recognize Punters part in that.
<< <i>
<< <i>Greenwood is going to have a tough time getting past Humphrey. >>
I would hate for it to wind up being a zero sum game between them, because they're both quite deserving in my opinion.
The best way to look at Guy is to compare him to the guys who came before him. I agree that in terms of effectiveness, Roby is very close to him. It's undeniably a limited function of the game, but the two kicking disciplines are individual specialties in the modern game. I think they're going to have to eventually recognize Punters part in that. >>
I don't think we can say Ray Guy has gone unrecognized. He's been a HOF finalist 7 times. The voters have discussed his candidacy 7 times, which puts him in a very small class of players who can say they were respected enough to have their HOF candidacy discussed and voted on. But the bottom line is, when you have to choose between John Elway, Jerry Rice, Lawrence Taylor, etc, etc, etc, and you are limited to just 5 spots, its basically impossible to place a Punter in front of them, and I agree with the thinking. Its a part of the game, just as long snapper and PAT holder are part of the game. Small parts, and honestly just less important than many other parts.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jasen
Comparing him to his contemporaries who were HOFers, I'd rank him ahead of Lavelli, Hirsch, and Fears, about even with McDonald, and behind only Pihos, Mitchell, and Berry. He retired as the all-time leader in receptions and receiving yards (breaking Don Hutson's records).
He was the Packers leading receiver every season he was there, was the Browns leading receiver his season with them (though they didn't pass much, having Jim Brown in the backfield), and then went to the expansion Cowboys, who he led in catches 2 of the next 3 seasons (at an age when most WRs in that era had retired).
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>Since we are talking snubs...Who are your top 10 ALL-TIME HOF snubs...Opinions on who you think should be in, not who you think will or won't, but if you were a voter, who would you put in. Look through the Modern and Senior future HOF sets and see what you come up with.....Here's mine:
1-Shannon Sharpe
2-Cris Carter
3-Tommy Nobis
4-Jerry Kramer
5-Richard Dent
6-Bob Kuechenberg
7-Dermontti Dawson
8-Randy Gradishar
9-Mick Tingelhoff
10-Tim Brown >>
In no particular order, from my own reading and research , and from talking with former players and Hall of Famers that I have been fortunate to meet , my top 10 snubs are :
Al " OX " Wistert
Billy Howton
Randy Gradishar
Bob Kuechenberg
Mick Tinglehoff
Tommy Nobis
Jerry Kramer
Dave Robinson
Lavvie Dilweg
Duke Slater
These guys are all more than deserving, but , in my lifetime, I would bet that not more than 4 or 5 ever get elected.
Rocke
<< <i>Wow, that has to be the quickest EVER update of this set after a HOF announcement. But, uh, they did miss one pretty important enshrinee...... >>
I betcha that means that we have to vote on the Emmitt since he has multiple rookies.
J
<< <i>IMO there's one senior candidate who's a no-brainer HOFer - Billy Howton.
Comparing him to his contemporaries who were HOFers, I'd rank him ahead of Lavelli, Hirsch, and Fears, about even with McDonald, and behind only Pihos, Mitchell, and Berry. He retired as the all-time leader in receptions and receiving yards (breaking Don Hutson's records).
He was the Packers leading receiver every season he was there, was the Browns leading receiver his season with them (though they didn't pass much, having Jim Brown in the backfield), and then went to the expansion Cowboys, who he led in catches 2 of the next 3 seasons (at an age when most WRs in that era had retired).
Nick >>
I actually talked Billy Howton, Del Shofner and a couploe of other old time WRs with a senior committee HOF voter a year or so ago. His response.
"Shofner was a all-decade selection in the 1960s and deserves to be discussed for the Hall of Fame. Gary Collins and Boyd Dowler also were all-decade performers in the 1960s who deserve to be discussed. If you were one of the best players of your generation, you deserve to be discussed among the best players of all time. Unfortunately for all 3 of those guys, with the explosion of receiving numbers in the last 10-15-20 years, they will never get the credit for being good players that they were. Nor are they likely to be discussed. Their window of opportunity would have been from about 1975-85. It came and went and their names never came up."
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>They put Andy Russell in my Floyd Little spot. >>
Yeah, same here.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
kramer
robinson
butler
horton
dowler
fritsch
maybe others too.
Jason, do you know if some of the voters have something against teams such as the Packers and Bears that have quite a high number in the HOF already for voting in non-sure fire candiates??
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>well a lot of former Packers on the outside looking in. but i am sure other teams can say that too.
kramer
robinson
butler
horton
dowler
fritsch
maybe others too.
Jason, do you know if some of the voters have something against teams such as the Packers and Bears that have quite a high number in the HOF already for voting in non-sure fire candiates?? >>
Well, I don't think there is anything against any specific FRANCHISE, but I have heard it stated many times that specific teams set the standard for how many HOFers from one particular team can have. This has hurt Kramer, Dave Robinson, LC Greenwood and Donnie Shell specifiically, as well as hurting Cliff Harris and Chuck Howley of the Cowboys. For example, the argument being if the 70's Steelers have 9 guys in, and the 70s Cowboys already have 7 guys in, then its not fair to but more Cowboys in because the Steelers were so much better during that time...
Butler is hurt by the Safety haters...Its funny because it used to be said Offensive Guards got the least respect of any full time starting position..But it seems they have made a concerted effort over the last 10 years or so to get more guards in the HOF..Maybe one day that will happen with the Safeties..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> This has hurt Kramer, Dave Robinson, LC Greenwood and Donnie Shell specifiically, as well as hurting Cliff Harris and Chuck Howley of the Cowboys. For example, the argument being if the 70's Steelers have 9 guys in, and the 70s Cowboys already have 7 guys in, then its not fair to but more Cowboys in because the Steelers were so much better during that time... >>
I think that same argument (specifically the Steelers component of it) has hurt some deserving Raider candidates.
I hate Cliff Harris with a passion and would have loved to have seen Lambert stomp him into the turf in SB X, but he belongs in the HOF.
<< <i>
<< <i> This has hurt Kramer, Dave Robinson, LC Greenwood and Donnie Shell specifiically, as well as hurting Cliff Harris and Chuck Howley of the Cowboys. For example, the argument being if the 70's Steelers have 9 guys in, and the 70s Cowboys already have 7 guys in, then its not fair to but more Cowboys in because the Steelers were so much better during that time... >>
I think that same argument (specifically the Steelers component of it) has hurt some deserving Raider candidates.
I hate Cliff Harris with a passion and would have loved to have seen Lambert stomp him into the turf in SB X, but he belongs in the HOF. >>
Yep, the 70's Raiders are another victim. Madden may have been the last of them.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here is the checklist:
1992 STADIUM CLUB DARREN WOODSON 1.00
1993 BOWMAN WILLIE ROAF 1.00
1993 SP WILL SHIELDS 1.00
1993 ULTRA MICHAEL STRAHAN 1.00
1994 BOWMAN KEVIN MAWAE 1.00
1994 PLAYOFF LARRY ALLEN 1.00
1995 SP WARREN SAPP 1.00
1995 SP DERRICK BROOKS 1.00
1995 SP TY LAW 1.00
1996 BOWMAN'S BEST RAY LEWIS 1.00
1996 FINEST BRIAN DAWKINS 1.00
1996 SP JONATHAN OGDEN 1.00
1996 SP TERRELL OWENS 1.00
1996 SP MARVIN HARRISON 1.00
1996 SP ZACH THOMAS 1.00
1997 PACIFIC PHILADELPHIA ADAM VINATIERI 1.00
1997 SP AUTHENTIC ORLANDO PACE 1.00
1997 SP AUTHENTIC WALTER JONES 1.00
1997 SP AUTHENTIC TONY GONZALEZ 1.00
1997 SP AUTHENTIC JASON TAYLOR 1.00
1997 SP AUTHENTIC RONDE BARBER 1.00
1998 SP AUTHENTIC PEYTON MANNING 1.00
1998 SP AUTHENTIC RANDY MOSS 1.00
1998 SP AUTHENTIC CHARLES WOODSON 1.00
1999 SP AUTHENTIC EDGERRIN JAMES 1.00
1999 SP AUTHENTIC TORRY HOLT 1.00
1999 SP AUTHENTIC CHAMP BAILEY 1.00
1999 ULTRA LA'ROI GLOVER 1.00
2000 FLEER TRADITION SHANE LECHLER 1.00
2000 SP AUTHENTIC DANTE HALL 1.00
2000 SP AUTHENTIC TOM BRADY 1.00
2000 SP AUTHENTIC BRIAN URLACHER 1.00
2000 SP AUTHENTIC JAMAL LEWIS 1.00
2000 SP AUTHENTIC SHAUN ALEXANDER 1.00
2001 CROWN ROYALE STEVE HUTCHINSON 1.00
2001 SP AUTHENTIC RICHARD SEYMOUR 1.00
2001 TOPPS JOEY PORTER 1.00
2001 TOPPS CHROME LADAINIAN TOMLINSON 1.00
2001 UPPER DECK MVP DAVID AKERS 1.00
2002 FINEST DWIGHT FREENEY 1.00
2002 PACIFIC LORENZO NEAL 1.00
2002 TOPPS CHROME ED REED 1.00
2002 TOPPS CHROME JULIUS PEPPERS 1.00
2002 UPPER DECK XL OLIN KREUTZ 1.00
2002 UPPER DECK XL ALAN FANECA 1.00
2003 LEAF ROOKIES AND STARS ANTONIO GATES 1.00
2003 SP AUTHENTIC TROY POLAMALU 1.00
2003 TOPPS CHROME KEVIN WILLIAMS 1.00
2005 LEAF ROOKIES AND STARS JOSH CRIBBS 1.00
2005 TOPPS CHROME DEMARCUS WARE 1.00
2006 SCORE BRIAN MOORMAN 1.00
2006 TOPPS CHROME DEVIN HESTER
2001 SP AUTHENTIC RICHARD SEYMOUR is an auto card and should be '01 Topps chrome #282 as in the All-Time Patriots team
2002 FINEST DWIGHT FREENEY - 2002 Topps chrome #171 was used in the All-Time Colts set
2002 PACIFIC LORENZO NEAL - 1993 Wild Card Super Chrome #248 is his RC
<< <i>I just saw the new team of the decade is on-line and there a few cards I would change.
Here is the checklist:
2001 SP AUTHENTIC RICHARD SEYMOUR is an auto card and should be '01 Topps chrome #282 as in the All-Time Patriots team
2002 FINEST DWIGHT FREENEY - 2002 Topps chrome #171 was used in the All-Time Colts set
2002 PACIFIC LORENZO NEAL - 1993 Wild Card Super Chrome #248 is his RC >>
Super Chrome was an insert, but the regular Wild Card is the one...These were the 3 I spotted also and just e-mailed PSA about it...They also left off Darren Sharper, card numbers and didn't weight it...
Hopefully can get these fixed. I wish they woulda waited until we figured out 1st team but oh well!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
That is a tuff card that is condition sensitive.
<< <i>How do Jeff Feagles stats stand up against Guy and Roby? And how come no one talks about Lee Roy Jordan? In my mind he was at least as good as Nobis,if not better, and I hate the Cowboys. One last thing----the HOF should be for the great, those players who dominated their positions and determined the outcome of games, and not for the "very good" who may have amassed huge stats but never really dominated. >>
Feagles has played a long time and has over 1700 punts in his career. But none of his averages are comparable. He was a slightly above average Punter who's played forever...Thats it..
Jordan is routinely among the final 15 senior candidates every year. Problem is he and Chuck Howley played together and split votes..Not to mention the number of Cowboys that have goen into the HOF the last 5 years or so. It's going to be awhile before a Cowboy is again selected as a Senior candidate.
Agreed, it should be for dominant players. That is how I define a HOFer. But, there's 44 voters, and many don't know jack about the history of the game and therefore have no idea how to vote and who to pick. If the presenter does a good job and sells the guy, they will vote for them. Sucks, but what can you do? It's a democracy and majority rules,
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jason, do you know who presents for the Bears, I vote to replace that guy. Is it Dan Pompei? >>
I don't think it's the presentation that's keeping Dent out. He's not one of those guys the voters look at and say "HOFer, no question, no debate" ala Jerry Rice or Emmitt...He's also not one of the newly discovered guys, the longshot that the voters seem to be picking one every year. That guy this year was Rickey Jackson. Other recents being Fred Dean, Tippett, Wehrli. Guys that some voters get persuaded to vote for using the thinking that the guy might not get another chance.
Dent is in the Russ Grimm, Sharpe, Derrick Thomas, Gary Zimmerman class of guys...Who the voters ASSUME will eventually get in (and Dent will). So it usually comes down to luck of the draw. This year it was John Randle instead of Dent. You look ahead and his competition in that class of guys on the defensive side of the ball and the only one left is Cortez Kennedy. With a DT going this year (Randle), there's no doubt Dent will make it within the next 2 selections.
Let's not overhype him. He's been waiting like 8 years of his 20 years of being eligible. He wasn't Reggie White. HOF caliber, sure, but far from a lock first ballot kinda guy. In the grand scheme of things its not really that shocking that he's having to wait a few years. I know it sucks when guys like Rickey Jackson, Ralph Wilson, Fred Dean, Andre Tippett and Roger Wehrli go in before him. You could say the same for Shannon Sharpe and Cris Carter...But, its just how the game is played. You get your upper class locks, you get your lower class longshots, and you get your middle class guys who have to wait awhile for induction while watching the lower class guys go in ahead of them...
Dent will get in though, and when he does all will be forgotten.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jasen
<< <i>OK, so now that we have two players with RCs in the '90s, where is the best place to find auction pricing similar to VCP (which stops at '89) for the Emmitt and Randle RCs? Modern Card Guide is the only one I know of, but I'm not a big fan of the interface. Any others?
Jasen >>
Jasen:
VCP has just added the 1990's... Problem is, they are adding material to the database from "now" on. There's no history, per se...
In Australia their "Aussie Rules" football, which is a cross between every ball sport I've seen (basketball, football and soccer plus more), has a Hall of Fame with a "Legends" section. As we all can agree on, there are a few players that are locks for 1st ballot entry. The Jim Browns and Jerry Rice's of the game, then there are locks for eventual admission to the HOF and then there are the "what the??" guys who get in while everyone's looking the other way. Over here, the Rice's and Brown's get "Legend" status.
What makes it freaky is that if a guy is admitted to the regular HOF, he can be elevated to Legend status at a later date. You should see the punchups in the media about whether guys should get in or not. I don't think there's any perfect solution -- other than entrusting the admissions to knowledgeable and unbiased selectors. I've yet to meet even one person who meets that criteria, present company included. One of my father in law's best mates is a footy player from the late 50's, who sits on the selection committee. His biggest pet peeve are the stats heads who often base their best player selections on who had the best totals, without taking into account the intangibles and whether a player was so good he was "tagged" (the Aussie term for shadowed or double/triple teamed) by multiple players. He argues that those are the guys who get burned most often in the selection process. He goes as far as to say that only ex-players or coaches should be selectors. The media isn't high on his list of credible experts. By his own admission, once the era's players start to die off there's really no one who can accurately pick worthy HOF entrants. I mentioned that if a guy who played in the 50's hasn't gotten in by 2010 an argument can be made he doesn't deserve to be in. Well, that led to one of the most entertaining lunches I've ever had. He invited me to one of his "Bored Meetings" -- once a month he and a bunch of ex-teammates get together and have a long lunch. (And yes, they spell in Bored and not Board.) George mentioned my "theory" and the guys then spent the next couple of hours talking about the 4-5 guys not in the HOF that should have been locks. Guys that forced the other team to play the other side of the field, guys with stats that looked mediocre, but guys that scared the ever living crap out of the opposition. Changed my opinion forever about the HOF and what it means. It's for the fans, not the players -- although as they said, the players still love the honor.
I'm a fan, first and foremost, and I like the HOF as a monument to excellence. But as a realist, I know that as soon as just 1 guy who's not a lock gets in the dilution effect starts. I'll enjoy the HOF's in all 4 sports for what they are -- a great spectacle. In the meantime I'll continue to collect RC's of players who made/make the game more fun to watch.
Q. Do they make Aussie rules football cards? Rugby Cards? IF so, do they go way back and what might be considered vintage?
Q. Did you get to see any of Northern Trust? Riviera did extremely well by the way. The course held up wonderfully even with 2.25" of rain on Fri. and play was never halted. I spoke to four PGA tour officials who said our superintendint deserved a medal. Steve Stricker won (what a boring dude he is) and is now no. 2 in the world.
Just to make you jealous, I am playing Cypress Point (and then Monterey Peninsula CC) in March. I have been waiting 35 years for Cypress. Even if I don't break 90, I more than anything want to hit the 16th in reg. I have visualized myself busting a driver into the wind on a cool and foggy day a thousand times. Then standing over a 25 birdie putt and sinking it. What could be better? I already have enough cards...........
Anyway, I have requested that PSA send out a poll to the Registrant to vote/choose either Finest or Topps Chrome. If you hvae a dog in this fight and care to vote make sure you register your set ASAP. Poll will only go to those who have registered.
No doubt the Topps Chrome WILL BE the card when we eventually add it to the Future HOF and HOF sets...Its already on the Colts set and sells for much more than the Finest, which runs about $10 for a PSA 10....
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>exception of the Dwight Freeney Finest. Reason being that someone already registered it. Probably the guy who bought one for $12 on ebay yesterday. >>
LOL, just covering my bases in case they wouldn't take the topps chrome. I'll delete it.
<< <i>
<< <i>exception of the Dwight Freeney Finest. Reason being that someone already registered it. Probably the guy who bought one for $12 on ebay yesterday. >>
LOL, just covering my bases in case they wouldn't take the topps chrome. I'll delete it. >>
Was that you? Hopefully you are the only one, I havent looked through the sets.
I will e-mail Gayle back and tell her.
Then it will just be getting the grade weights updated.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Everything looks right to me (minus the weights). Anyone else see any discrepancies?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I always wondered why Karras isn't in. Is it because of the betting scandal? And if so, how come Hornung wasn't affected? >>
Hornung apologized and asked forgiveness...Karras never did...While I think that affected his candidacy when he was a modern guy, whats hurting him as a senior candidate is that many believe that he simply wasn't dominant enough for long enough.
Personally I think he is worthy, but certainly a borderline candidate and not a 1st ballot guy who'd been shunned simply because of the gambling.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
In the meantime I'll have to be happy with Royal Melbourne, Metropolitan and Kingston Heath -- also playing New South Wales (La Perouse) in April.
You're a lucky man, enjoy it.
Riviera looked great, although it always does. There's something to be said about the course curator being the highest paid staff member at every golf course. They're worth (more) than their weight in gold.
And yeah, they've got vintage cricket, footy and rugby cards. Scanlan's started footy making cards in the 40's and there some cigarette cards from earlier. The cricket cards were produced in the UK and they date back to the early 1900's. Rugby is about the same as footy.
When I got over here, those cards are what got me back into the hobby. Figured while I was here (only supposed to be a couple of years --- 10+ years ago!!) I might as well learn about the Aussie sports legends. Very affordable too. Like crazy cheap.
Just watching the Opening Ceremony and am very homesick. The plan was to be there for Feb but we just had a baby girl a few days ago so TV will have to do. I'm tormenting a few buddies back home with my semi-final and Gold Medal game hockey tickets.
<< <i>
<< <i>I always wondered why Karras isn't in. Is it because of the betting scandal? And if so, how come Hornung wasn't affected? >>
Hornung apologized and asked forgiveness...Karras never did...While I think that affected his candidacy when he was a modern guy, whats hurting him as a senior candidate is that many believe that he simply wasn't dominant enough for long enough.
Personally I think he is worthy, but certainly a borderline candidate and not a 1st ballot guy who'd been shunned simply because of the gambling.
Jason >>
Thanks for that info. I was young and impressionable when Karras played and I just remember how that line containing Roger Brown and Darris McCord was tough.
<< <i>
<< <i>I always wondered why Karras isn't in. Is it because of the betting scandal? And if so, how come Hornung wasn't affected? >>
Hornung apologized and asked forgiveness...Karras never did...While I think that affected his candidacy when he was a modern guy, whats hurting him as a senior candidate is that many believe that he simply wasn't dominant enough for long enough.
Personally I think he is worthy, but certainly a borderline candidate and not a 1st ballot guy who'd been shunned simply because of the gambling.
Jason >>
I didn't know Karras never apologized for his betting issues. Good for him.
But Jason how does Lebeau and Charlie Sanders both get in before Karras? Karras played 12 years. Not a short career. He has more pro bowls than Lebeau four to three. Plus Karras was first team all-pro three times and second team around five times in the 1960's. Blowing away Lebeau who had zero all-pro's.
Because Lebeau is still an active coach, his exploits there shouldn't even be considered yet in the voting for the HOF until he's five years retired from coaching. And if they did factor in coaching, they they take into consideration his 12-33 record as a head coach?
If they're putting in Lebeau for his 50 years in Pro Football than let's put in Bucko Kilroy too.
So on the basis of their playing record only, and taking the gambling suspension off the table, Karras was a way better player than Lebeau. Lebeau wasn't even in the top eight of the best def. backs during his playing days. Karras certainly was among the best eight def. linemen during his playing days.
I guess it's all politics and who's pushing for your HOF nomination the hardest.
<< <i>
But Jason how does Lebeau and Charlie Sanders both get in before Karras? Karras played 12 years. Not a short career. He has more pro bowls than Lebeau four to three. Plus Karras was first team all-pro three times and second team around five times in the 1960's. Blowing away Lebeau who had zero all-pro's.
Because Lebeau is still an active coach, his exploits there shouldn't even be considered yet in the voting for the HOF until he's five years retired from coaching. And if they did factor in coaching, they they take into consideration his 12-33 record as a head coach?
If they're putting in Lebeau for his 50 years in Pro Football than let's put in Bucko Kilroy too.
So on the basis of their playing record only, and taking the gambling suspension off the table, Karras was a way better player than Lebeau. Lebeau wasn't even in the top eight of the best def. backs during his playing days. Karras certainly was among the best eight def. linemen during his playing days.
I guess it's all politics and who's pushing for your HOF nomination the hardest. >>
BINGO....If you have the right people pushing your cause, that seems to be a big factor lately in the senior picks...Make no mistake..LeBeau was selected and inducted 99.9% due to his coaching and innovations on defense..Of course the voters would never say that, but no way he ever sniffs it as only a player...
I have NO CLUE where Charlie Sanders came from or how/why he made the HOF...Really don't...
Based on the early grumblings, my belief as of this moment is that the will be selecting an O-lineman and a LB this year...I think Kuechenberg is leading the O-Line pack, and Nobis leading a very crowded LB pack...Those names could change on a dime, but I think the positions are pretty solid bets...Karras has made the final 15 seniors from time to time but not every year..Good news is, he made it last year for the first time since 2006...So there's still hope for him...I think the next D-Lineman will be either Greenwood or Humphrey again though believe it or not...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I have NO CLUE where Charlie Sanders came from or how/why he made the HOF...Really don't... >>
Every now and then, they reach back and elect a guy only us oldsters remember. Jimmy Johnson (the Niners CB) for example. Plus, I think they're still making up for the long time it took them to elect any TEs at all.
I know it probably wouldn't make you too happy but I would love to see Raymond Chester get in eventually.
And Karras is way, way overdue.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have NO CLUE where Charlie Sanders came from or how/why he made the HOF...Really don't... >>
Every now and then, they reach back and elect a guy only us oldsters remember. Jimmy Johnson (the Niners CB) for example. Plus, I think they're still making up for the long time it took them to elect any TEs at all.
I know it probably wouldn't make you too happy but I would love to see Raymond Chester get in eventually.
And Karras is way, way overdue. >>
Sanders was definitely the top TE in the Senior Pool....But just based on the small amount of game film I've ever seen on the guy, I really didn't see HOF type dominance...Just a solid, good player for a long period...I just think there were/are better candidates in the Senior Pool than Sanders...I could say the same for most of the senior selections in the last 5 years...They need a new system for selecting senior candidates..Sending 5 guys to a room in Canton for a day and half, to me, leaves too much room for error..
If Ray Chester ever gets elected to the HOF, they might as well close up shop..I mean put Kyle Brady in at that point...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> I really didn't see HOF type dominance...Just a solid, good player for a long period...
Jason >>
As others on this thread have previously indicated, I think this is something that can be said for quite a few inductees over the last few years. Even more disturbing is hearing many of the voters this year say that all of the final 15 were equally deserving and should all be in Canton at some point. I don't think there's any question that it's becoming less the Hall of Fame and more the Hall of the Very Good. At least with Emmitt this year there is yet another Cardinal going into the HOF.
Jasen
<< <i>
<< <i> I really didn't see HOF type dominance...Just a solid, good player for a long period...
Jason >>
As others on this thread have previously indicated, I think this is something that can be said for quite a few inductees over the last few years. Even more disturbing is hearing many of the voters this year say that all of the final 15 were equally deserving and should all be in Canton at some point. I don't think there's any question that it's becoming less the Hall of Fame and more the Hall of the Very Good. At least with Emmitt this year there is yet another Cardinal going into the HOF.
Jasen >>
Jasen,
I am not sure of exactly what you mean and would like you to explain to me. Your 2nd sentence , breaking it into two parts.
1st part : " Even more disturbing is hearing many of the voters this year say that all of the final 15 were equally deserving." Well , I agree, they may not be all EQUALLY deserving, I mean Andre Reed is not as equally deserving as Jerry Rice, and Roger Craig is not as EQUALLY deserving as Emmitt Smith, but I'm telling you, having lived in Canton my whole life , and I was born a few years BEFORE there was a Hall of Fame, and have been going to many Hall events for many, many years, from what I have seen, ALL Hall of Famers are treated EQUALLY by The Hall of Fame.
2nd part: "and should all be in Canton at some point" I agree with that 100% as well. I ABSOLUTELY expect everyone of these 15 to be in The Hall within a few years. In my opinion, everyone of the 15 finalists were among the absolute best at their positions for at least 5 or six years MINIMUM.
Has ANYONE ever been elected to the Hall that didn't deserve it? MAYBE . But... having said that, compared to Baseball or Basketball, ( I admit, I don't know diddly about hockey ), I think the Football HoF has BY FAR the highest % of people in there that SHOULD be in there.
If you get time, go to the Hall website. Read Pete Fierle's blog titled " The best selection process in sports"
Is it perfect..... maybe not. I think having 6 to 10 Hall of Famers addressing the voting members on the merits of each possible enshrinee is a good idea. But I know that I'll take the way football does it, over all of the clowns that vote for baseball and basketball any day of the week.
What I want to know is, exactly WHAT is so disturbing to you?
Rocke
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
<< <i>so why do they often use the non-signed, like base topps chrome when clearly their 'best' card (like Freeney) is the signed Contenders RC? There were plenty made.
John >>
#1- Because many have very low print runs. What is the exact number of Freeney Contender auto's out there? Adding cards which were production limited means at some point, you exclude any further collectors from the set. ANY CARD running less than 1000 (well 999 due to 2001 topps chrome) I would personally vote against. I see the HOF set as a mainstream set for the masses. As one of the original creators of this set 7 years ago, I've watched it grow from 1 to 111 collectors, and I think our choices of cards along the way has done nothing but help increase the popularity.
#2- Because autographed cards GET THEIR OWN SETS. I can't put a non-auto Topps Chrome in an auto set, so why should auto cards be allowed into our mainstream sets? They are more valuable ONLY due to the autograph and or the limited prints due to the autograph, and not the card. This set in particular is a card collection and not an autograph collection. We add the most valuable/popular mainstream cards. Not autos, jerseys, inserts or any of the other modern gimmick cards.
Of course these are just one man's opinion, and most issues on this set are decided by the masses. If you think it is that big of a deal, request PSA to change it. They will send out a vote and let the collectors decide. Just keep in mind, that the Decade sets are not feeder sets. Meaning, just because it is on this set, doesn;t mean it will be the card used on the HOF RC or Future HOF RC sets. I think most who collect the decade sets also collect the HOF set, so I would assume most would desire to have the same cards. But there are cases in which that is not the case..Junior Seau and Reggie White come to mind as examples. The FUTURE HOF set however is a feeder set. Whatever card we vote to the modern set will transfer (no vote between different cards needed) to the HOF RC set once the player is inducted.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>so why do they often use the non-signed, like base topps chrome when clearly their 'best' card (like Freeney) is the signed Contenders RC? There were plenty made.
John
>>
Amen John......I'm one of the few here that would rather have the most valuable card with a serial # of at least 1K. I'm in the minority according to the voting done on the Ed Reed card to be used.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!