<< <i>CONGRATS Floyd Little! Bronco Fans know why you were elected. Its a travisty that you are only the 2nd true Bronco to make the Hall............ >>
Wouldn't Randy Gradishar and Shannon Sharpe be more deserving? Just your opinion as a Bronco fan..
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Odd note about this year's class - Rickey Jackson and Russ Grimm were teammates at Pitt, class of '81. Only once before have teammates from the same college gone in at the same time - Gino Marchetti and Ollie Matson (Univ. of San Francisco, class of '52) from the HOF class of 1972. There have been several other pairs who were from the same college inducted into the HOF at the same time (most recently Lynn Swann and Ron Yary), but they weren't on the collegiate team together.
<< <i>1984 topps on the Jackson, right? I have one but can't remember what grade it is right now. >>
Correct. Same one we voted onto the HOF RC Modern set last month.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Randle's selection was a twist but he deserves the honor. I'm not sold on Grimm. IMO nearly any of the other candidates should have been chosen over him.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
That's funny, Dave. I didn't know Rickey Jackson was on an '82 Topps card. I wonder why they didn't give him his own card.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Well, the #2 Chicle set didn't sell but there were some great prices achieved in ML's auction that just closed. The Nagurski 7 and Unitas 9 went for way more than I thought but there was some good value in the Chicle singles.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
<< <i>Hey Rocke! I'm glad you finally made it over to this blog and hopefully many contributors recognize you for all your postings on the FB HOF autograph thread. Your knowledge about the HOF will be invaluable. Welcome abroad! >>
Hey Joe,
Thanks for the kind words. I DO appreciate it. I doubt that I will be able to offer anything earth shattering concerning HoF Rookie cards, but I CAN offer some insight to The Hall of Fame, Enshrinees ( I have had the GREAT honor to have met 164 out of 260 ) and what Hall of Fame week is all about. As a little sidenote, my 12 year old son has had his picture taken with at LEAST one Hall of Famer from EVERY class except 4 ( 1963 , 1964, 1997, and 2005 ) it will be 3 as of next month when I get his picture with Don Shula in Chantilly, Va.
Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
Wouldn't Lionel Taylor, the Broncos star end from the 1960's, be a better HOF choice than Little? No love for the old AFL players.
Lebeau is in the HOF over : Jack Butler, Bobby Dillion, Bobby Boyd, Erich Barnes, Ed Meador, Jimmy Patton, D. Lynch, Johnnie Robinson, and Dave Grayson??
Perhaps it was his three pro bowl selections and zero all-pro seasons. Or his ball-hawking 62 int's. Maybe he got in with his 13-33 head coaching record. Or his eight years as def. coordinator for the mediocre Bengals team defenses of the 1980's. At least his time with the Steelers has been HOF worthy. But I thought he was inducted for his playing only?
At any rate, Lebeau is a nice guy who's worked many years in the NFL, and was well liked by his peers and players. All points which must have played a part in his election.
You could change the title of this HOF rookies set to the HOTVG. Hall of the very good.
I am also one of the guys who was surprised by this years HOF class. I'm only 34, love football, love the rookie cards but seriously, who the he_ll is Floyd Little? My whole life I've watched highlight shows, NFL films etc and never heard of this great Denver RB(?) Floyd Little. Then to again snub Dent makes me sick and then they put Randle right in along with Rickey Jackson. Rickey Jackson? Rickey Jackson? Meanwhile Jerry Kramer sits somewhere asking "who was Floyd Little?". Maybe I'm just young and uninformed but this crap makes me want to just quit coming back to this set.
So I ask this of you, what do all of YOU hold as a standard for what makes an NFL Hall of Famer? What is your personal criteria?
I completely agree about the Jerry Kramer snub. The guy was voted to the NFL's all-time team for it's first 50 years and I believe he might be the only one from that team that is not enshrined in the HOF.
You gotta ask why??? Too many Packers in already from those many championship teams from the 1960's? If that's the reason, then that's just BS.
Not to hate on Russ Grimm, but Kramer deserves to be in the HOF before that hog made it.
I agree with the HOF standards being too soft. How Kramer doesn't get in, regardless of who else gets in, just doesn't make any sense. And there are many others. Dominant players, no matter the position or how many other teammates have gotten in, should be elected. Politics and ignorance too often affect the selection process.
Plus the modern game with the sheer number of teams and corresponding talent dilution have made for some great stats from the league leaders. This HOF RC set is fun to put together but I also enjoy picking up RC's from other great players whether or not they make it to Canton.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
<< <i>CONGRATS Floyd Little! Bronco Fans know why you were elected. Its a travisty that you are only the 2nd true Bronco to make the Hall............ >>
Wouldn't Randy Gradishar and Shannon Sharpe be more deserving? Just your opinion as a Bronco fan.. >>
I feel Little was more than deserving. Durring his 9 years with the Broncos he was only behind Oj Simpson in rushing yards. If he had played for an east coast team it would not have taken 30 years for him to get in. Rickey Jackson making the Hall before Gradishar is a joke. Sharpe should have been a 1st ballot guy but will make it next year. All in my Bronco fan opinion.. Lol...
Cardbender, You made a couple of points I wanted to touch on. Jerry Kramer IS, in fact, the ONLY member from the All-Time NFL team of the first 50 years NOT to be elected to Canton. I DO think that Dick LeBeau should be in the Hall, but how Johnnie Robinson, has NOT been elected yet is beyond me. Also, there is a local card show here in Canton. See www.landofboz.com Really nice lady runs the card show and autograph session. For the last few years, whenever she has an autograph guest that flies in, after the show, I get to take them out to eat, and then to either Cleveland, or the Canton/Akron airport. One of the things that I always ask whoever it is that I drive is, " Who did you play with, or against , that is NOT in the Hall that you feel SHOULD be in ? " One of the names that HoFer Bobby Mitchell gave me was in fact, Erich Barnes. And Bronkota, Here is a little Ohio State opinion for you. It is a COMPLETE joke that Randy Gradishar has not yet been elected. In a time that sees more offensive plays being run in a game now than many years ago, Rarely do you see ANYBODY make over 200 tackles in a YEAR. Randy made 2,049 in ten years. Do the math. He AVERAGED 205 tackles a year !!!! Oh, by the way, that was in 14 game season's, not the current 16. Not to mention 5x 1st team ALL-PRO, 1x 2nd team ALL-PRO , 7x pro bowler , 1978 defensive player of the year. Unbelievable !!! Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
So I ask this of you, what do all of YOU hold as a standard for what makes an NFL Hall of Famer? What is your personal criteria? >>
I think the criteria is that there is no criteria. Much like grading cards, its a subjective process. There are measurables and stats, but they do not account for the full package.
Me personally, I base it on dominance consistently display on the field over a significant period of time. And perceived dominance is also subjective, but for me, I base it on comparisons with others at the same position during the same era first. And comparisons with similar players from different eras being secondary. If they guy is a top 2-3 player at his position for 5+ years, he should be in the HOF. Sometimes there are more than 3 HOF quality guys playing in the league at the same position at the same time. Those are the cases that create reason for debate.
Really my ONLY complaint with the HOF voting is that they need to fix/change/adjust the voters. The process of present/debate/vote as the cut from 15-10-5 is genius. But find a way for GMs or Pro Player personnel guys to be part of the voting. Maybe 30 media and 30 NFL GMs...Every single HOF Voter should be an EXPERT in judging talent. Right now, its about 70% in the room who are experts, and the rest fall between bandwagon guys and semi-clueless...At the very least, there should be an entrance exam. Right now, they just choose guys based on recommendations, and that allows some real low football IQs in the room. I mean THE PRESIDENT of the HOF announced Rickey Jackson as Randy...I mean are you kidding me????? He shouldn't even NEED to read off a card. Tell me the names once who made it and I can quote you career stats of the guys off the top of my head. THAT is the level those guys should be operating on if they want the HOF to remain relevant. Don't tell me it's not a big deal. The Super Bowl tonight is going to be the most watched TV program in the history of television. People care about football, and the HOF should be treated as importanatly as anything they do. Because that is where the history of the game is preserved.
Ok, off the soapbox and off to the Super Bowl party....lol
Colts 31-Saints 27
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I completely agree about the Jerry Kramer snub. The guy was voted to the NFL's all-time team for it's first 50 years and I believe he might be the only one from that team that is not enshrined in the HOF.
You gotta ask why??? Too many Packers in already from those many championship teams from the 1960's? If that's the reason, then that's just BS.
Not to hate on Russ Grimm, but Kramer deserves to be in the HOF before that hog made it. >>
Another interesting fact on Grimm is that he only played in 30/76 games the last five years of his career. He was dependable his first 6 years but missed alot of time after that time period.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Since we are talking snubs...Who are your top 10 ALL-TIME HOF snubs...Opinions on who you think should be in, not who you think will or won't, but if you were a voter, who would you put in. Look through the Modern and Senior future HOF sets and see what you come up with.....Here's mine:
1-Shannon Sharpe 2-Cris Carter 3-Tommy Nobis 4-Jerry Kramer 5-Richard Dent 6-Bob Kuechenberg 7-Dermontti Dawson 8-Randy Gradishar 9-Mick Tingelhoff 10-Tim Brown
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Since we are talking snubs...Who are your top 10 ALL-TIME HOF snubs...Opinions on who you think should be in, not who you think will or won't, but if you were a voter, who would you put in. Look through the Modern and Senior future HOF sets and see what you come up with.....Here's mine:
1-Shannon Sharpe 2-Cris Carter 3-Tommy Nobis 4-Jerry Kramer 5-Richard Dent 6-Bob Kuechenberg 7-Dermontti Dawson 8-Randy Gradishar 9-Mick Tingelhoff 10-Tim Brown >>
Nice list, but can we remember the likes of Al Wistert, Mac Speedie, Ray Guy, Lavvie Dilweg, Maxie Baughan, Lester Hayes and Joe Fortunato.
Jerome Bettis, Marshall Faulk, Willie Roaf, Deion Sanders, Jimmy Smith will be some of the big names on the ballot
bettis, faulk, roaf, and sanders should be locks. that leavs room for two or three more. i think shannon sharpe and cris carter will get in next year also
Another Ray Guy vote here too - I think he was the #1 choice of the fans in that Van Heusen online vote thing before the cut down to the semi finalists. I also think Cliff Branch should be in as well.
Maybe this is bad timing with the HOF inductions and the Super Bowl all happening, but I'll post here and ask all you HOF rookie experts for some help with this. That beautiful Mel Hein rookie card you see above that was a 9, just bumped to a (1/1) Gem Mint 10 !!! Considering Fight For Old DC Isaacson paid almost $9,000.00 for a Mel Hein 9, what might this card fetch?
<< <i>Since we are talking snubs...Who are your top 10 ALL-TIME HOF snubs...Opinions on who you think should be in, not who you think will or won't, but if you were a voter, who would you put in. Look through the Modern and Senior future HOF sets and see what you come up with.....Here's mine:
1-Shannon Sharpe 2-Cris Carter 3-Tommy Nobis 4-Jerry Kramer 5-Richard Dent 6-Bob Kuechenberg 7-Dermontti Dawson 8-Randy Gradishar 9-Mick Tingelhoff 10-Tim Brown >>
Nice list, but can we remember the likes of Al Wistert, Mac Speedie, Ray Guy, Lavvie Dilweg, Maxie Baughan, Lester Hayes and Joe Fortunato. >>
I pretty much agree on all these guys. I think from Jason's top ten list, all those guys will get in within the next 10 years. On Scott's old-time list, we can only hope they don't have to wait that long. My top two old-time pre 1950 guys deserving to get to the Hall next are Wistert and Dilweg.
Jason, I totally agree on the voting process needing some tweaking. If some of these voters don't even know who they are casting votes for, they should be tossed out of the process. A history of Football test should be a requirement. Plus many, many hours of film study.
Nice list, but can we remember the likes of Al Wistert, Mac Speedie, Ray Guy, Lavvie Dilweg, Maxie Baughan, Lester Hayes and Joe Fortunato. >>
Of these, IMO, only Wistert, Dilweg and Lester Hayes should be in...But not above anyone in my top 10...
I still can't but the argument for a player who averages 10 plays a game (punter), rarely gets touched, and never scores a point deserves to be in the HOF over guys who played every down in the trenches and/or scored 100+ TDs..Sorry.
2011 is the LAST modern era shot for Ray Guy and Lester Hayes! One or both should at least make the final 15 and get their case heard one more time..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jerome Bettis, Marshall Faulk, Willie Roaf, Deion Sanders, Jimmy Smith will be some of the big names on the ballot
bettis, faulk, roaf, and sanders should be locks. that leavs room for two or three more. i think shannon sharpe and cris carter will get in next year also >>
MAX of 5 modern candidates..You also forgot Curtis martin..Unfortunately my bot J-Smith isn't sniffing the HOF for awhile if ever...
Also, would be a first to have 4 first ballot guys..I don't see it happening..Faulk will trump Bettis and Martin and push them back to a weak 2012 first ballot class (Bill Parcells will be the only 2012 first ballot guy)...
Here's your class for next year, you heard it here first! lol
Deion Sanders Marshall Faulk Willie Roaf Richard Dent Shannon Sharpe Bob Kuechenberg Tommy Nobis
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm happy for Lebeau, I have a nice original negative from the Topps Vault, a photo of him with the Cleveland Browns from 1959, before he was released and signed by the Detroit Lions.
<< <i>my bet is that Brady ends up as #1 QB for the 90's. 3 SB's vs 1?? >>
2000-2009 Total MVP Votes Peyton Manning 160 1/2 Tom Brady 67 LaDainian Tomlinson 44 Kurt Warner 34 Marshall Faulk 32
Shouldn't be any question who the greatest player of the decade is...Even though he chokes more often than not in the big games...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>THAT IS SO COOL TAKING THE HOFERS OUT TO EAT AND THEN TO THE AIRPORT. I'm in total agrement...Gradishar and Kramer should be in. period.
Watching nfl yesterday...Rod Woodson basically snubbed the process and said they need to add HOF players...for some actual FB knowledge.
Like the fact that Vince collects guys not just in the HOF...That's why I also do the all time AFL set. >>
It is really neat getting to do this. I truly feel honored that I have been asked by Jane to help her out with her autograph guests. It used to be her and her husband, but he passed away a few years ago, and beleive it or not, I kind of stumbled into doing this for her. After the autograph signing is done, the card show part still goes on for a couple of hours, and she needs to stay and take care of all the dealers, take down her tables, collect dealer fees etc.... etc. Since I have been doing this for her, I have got to take out to eat / take to the airport the following :
Ray Guy Roger Wehrli Fred Dean Andre Reed Bernie Kosar Bob Keuchenberg Rayfield Wright Chuck Bednarik Michael Dean Perry
In two weeks she is having Dan Hampton. I will get to pick him up early Sunday AM take him out to eat before the show, take him to the show, take him out after the show, then to the airport. I have already had M.D.Perry and Bernie Kosar over to my house before shows to show them my extensive autograph collection because we had some time to kill before I had to have them AT the show. I hope that I have time with Dan before the show to get him over. That is my BIG goal, to have a Hall of Famer at my home to see my collection. THAT , as they say, would be " The icing on the cake " I know that I am Blessed. Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
Chokes? What are you talking about?? Chokes??? He's getting ready to drive his team down the field in the Super Bowl for the game-tying touch......oh, wait..uh, nevermind.
well we had elway over favre in the 90's. i am sure favre had more mvp votes, td's etc in the 90's than elway. but elway had one more ring. >>
Yeah, you're right..Good point...
So what if they never announce the voting or first/second teams anywhere officially?
Do we just not create the set?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Since we are talking snubs...Who are your top 10 ALL-TIME HOF snubs...Opinions on who you think should be in, not who you think will or won't, but if you were a voter, who would you put in. Look through the Modern and Senior future HOF sets and see what you come up with.....Here's mine:
1-Shannon Sharpe 2-Cris Carter 3-Tommy Nobis 4-Jerry Kramer 5-Richard Dent 6-Bob Kuechenberg 7-Dermontti Dawson 8-Randy Gradishar 9-Mick Tingelhoff 10-Tim Brown >>
You have some guys there who I think are on the right track and will get in sooner or later, (Keuchenberg, Sharpe, Dent, Dawson, Carter and Brown), so I'll skip them. They all have the resume to be in and I'm in favor of them all being enshrined.
Nobis, Kramer, Tinglehoff and Gradishar are all on my list. So are Chris Hanburger, Lester Hayes, Jerry Smith (I know I'm alone but I don't care), Dave Robinson, Winston Hill and L.C. Greenwood.
None of this even begins to address the backlog of 60's and '70's WRs like Otis Taylor, Cliff Branch, Harold Carmichael or Isaac Curtis, (just to name a few.)
<< <i>I still can't but the argument for a player who averages 10 plays a game (punter), rarely gets touched, and never scores a point deserves to be in the HOF over guys who played every down in the trenches and/or scored 100+ TDs..Sorry. >>
I see your point. I would make punters and modern fullbacks lower priority as well for their lesser impact on games, but they are still positions that teams in the league employ and use and, as such, there will be dominant players at those positions. If I take my nephews to the HOF and try to teach them about the game, they'll never have a clue that punting is part of football. Quite an important part of football, actually. Something about that doesn't sit right with me.
Personally, I'd rather see the best punter ever in the HOF than a defensive end who was nearly useless on running plays or another durable wider receiver. Lord knows they will all have their day.
That argument made about punters may have some relavence. ....but about ray guy is pure crap. At best these days...Most play either Off or Def..thats just 1/2 the game.
Lets take a running back for example. In the old days and even today a 100 yard game rushing is considered good. Maybe throw in a few extra for recieving. So he has a value of about 120 yards per game.
Now Ray Guy punts 10 times. He gives you an extra 5 yards/punt X10 for 50 yards. His punts were so high that they were not returned for all that much vs. other punters... so although not actual yards so to speak its 50-75 negative yards in field position the other team didn't get. So he equals a running back in value to his team.
When you consider all the botched long snaps Guy handles and even ran for 1st downs (far more common then as we have specialized long snappers now) The raiders could have an extra player as they didn't need a 3rd string QB as most other teams did. Guy was the 3rd string QB. Yes he did play QB. I saw him run an entire 1/2 game as QB due to injuries. Didn't throw any long passes....but what an attribute to have him.
So a def pass rusher who gets a few sacks is a hofer? Isn't that highly specialized also. Punting is an important part of the game...Lets put the best punter in the history of the NFL in the hall where he deserves.
I had an email discussion with a fellow board member about Guy last night. I respect all opinions.
Didn't I predict the saints by 10 !!!!
Did ya all see the very worried look on Peytons face the whole 2nd half. Rattle his cage...he breaks down. 4 mvps....yet he's no Joe Montana
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Manning showed again that he isn't the greatest ever. It is a team sport and the colts prove time and again that 1 player doesn't beat a team. Is he great - yes. Is he a dick - yes. Having sat next to him at a chartity dinner, he truly is not the person in the commercials.
His totals keep increasing 4 mvps, 1 super bowl mvp (I still say that Rex Grossman's 5 int, 3 fumbles made him the mvp for the colts), and yadda yadda are just numbers, he lacks the intangibles of Montana and others.
I finally broke down and bought an SP authentic card for both Manning and Brady, but I definately had more issues dropping that kind of money for Manning, not Brady.
Ok..How about this Ray Guy vs. Shane Lechler. Show me how or where Guy is better.
For his career Guy punted or was the punter in 207 games and punted 1049 times...his NON-Punting stats:
Rushing- 11 rushes, 43 yards, 0 TDs Passing- 2 for 3, 54 yds, 1 INT, 0 TDs (sacked once for -12 yds)
His punting stats: 1049 punts 42.7 avg 128 Touchbacks (12.2%), 210 times Inside 20 (20.0%) NET average (minus return yards) 35.1
Now, lets compare to say Sean Landeta...All-Decade for the 80's punter...
His punting stats: 1401 punts 43.3 avg 166 touchbacks (11.8%) 381 times Inside 20 (27.2%) NET average (minus return yards) 35.5
Or, how about Reggie Roby, who gets nominated for the HOF every year...
His punting stats: 992 punts 43.3 avg 112 touchbacks (11.3%) 298 times Inside 20 (30.0%) NET average (minus return yards) 36.4
How is Ray Guy better than any of these guys? Roby had the same, if not better, hang time on his booming punts..Both of these guys have better numbers across the board than Guy. This is why he is not in the HOF. The only way a Punter, Special Teamer, Kick returner is ever getting in the HOF is if they are so dominant at the position that they are far and away the greatest of all-time with numbers to prove it. And his 11 rushes and 3 passes over 14 years, I'm sorry those do not sway my opinion.
You can debate if Punters belong in the HOF or not, but Guy was NOT so much better than all other punters that he deserves to be enshrined over other players who contributed more. Just looking at the teams Guy played on. Do you actually believe he contirbuted more to the success of those Raiders teams than Ken Stabler? Lester Hayes? Cliff Branch? You want Guy to take one of their slots? That's crazy...He would need to be hands down, unquestioned greatest Punter of all-time, but every time his name has gotten into the room as a finalist, he gets destroyed by the naysayers who show the same type comparisons that i just did above.
Maybe one day the committee will set aside a slot every few years for coaches, contributors, and special teamers. If that happens, then go ahead and induct him. But don't take slots away from Sharpe, Dent, Carter, Dawson, etc. to elect punters, other special teamers marginal coaches who never won it all and owners.
Just my oinions of course, but much of this comes from past info I received in reference to the Ray Guy debates among the HOF committee.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Is he great - yes. Is he a dick - yes. Having sat next to him at a chartity dinner, he truly is not the person in the commercials. >>
Funny you say that. I got to meet and greet with him in Hawaii during a Pro Bowl a few years back, watch him interact with people quite a bit. My thoughts coming away from that was that he is a dufus..lol
On the field, he's a genius, but you'd never guess it if you just met him and didn't know who he was...He has no people skills...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Nobis, Kramer, Tinglehoff and Gradishar are all on my list. So are Chris Hanburger, Lester Hayes, Jerry Smith (I know I'm alone but I don't care), Dave Robinson, Winston Hill and L.C. Greenwood.
None of this even begins to address the backlog of 60's and '70's WRs like Otis Taylor, Cliff Branch, Harold Carmichael or Isaac Curtis, (just to name a few.) >>
I like the chances of Nobis, Gradishar and Dave Robinson. Eventually the senior committee will put a couple of LBs in the HOF and that's probably your top 3 candidates according to the voters. Nobis and Robinson have been VERY close in the senior vote the last few years. Each has made the final 5 senior candidates. Last year was Gradishar's first year in the Senior pool, and he didn;t even make the 15 semifinalists..Which was surprising to me. I'm not sure how that bodes for him moving forward, but he made the modern finalists so he does have some support.
Greenwood is going to have a tough time getting past Humphrey. In fact, don't be shocked to see old Claude pull a Bob Hayes one of these years and be a Senior guy again. And that is a quote from a senior committee member..lol
Winston Hill and Jerry Smith are long forgotten. Never happening for either of them. Hanburger, I don't know why he gets no love, but none of the voters push for him. He's NEVER made the final 15 seniors, and thats not good.
Tingelhoff was getting to the final 5 a few years back, but has since fallen back to the back. i don;t know if he'll ever make it or not. Kramer is still and probably will always be looked at as over rated. Universally believed that his election to the top 50 all-time players was a"botch job"...I think he is HOF material, and had a HUGE push last year, yet still didn't get selected. Not sure if he ever will now either. I think he's definitely behind Kuechenberg and Tingelhoff among the O-lineman..Which means you're looking at 15+ years possible..lol
2011 is Lester Hayes (and Ray Guy's) last year as modern candidates. I do feel that Hayes will eventually get in Emmitt Thomas style as a Senior.
Otis Taylor is the closest (and probably only) WR in that group to getting selected...He's made the final 5 the last 2 years...I wouldn't be shocked to see him as one of the slections within the next few years. I don't see any of the others ever making it. Branch would probably be the next in line after taylor, but no way he will get in before Stabler.
Early favorites for next year are Kuech and Nobis. Outside shots for Taylor, Robinson and Gradishar. Throw Claude Humphrey in there as a possible again. Maybe a Stabler, although i think he will get his push in 2012. For the old-timers, maybe Wistert..but my thinking is, they won't pick any pre-1960 guys again until the 70+ age voters go back to Canton for selection which is i think 2012 or 2013. Cant remember, I will ask. So 2012, I see Stabler and Wistert, but that is only based on opinions, there are no official plans OR rumors about Class of 2012 Seniors..lol..but my 2011 picks for next year ARE based on info received.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
While I believe that Roaf has the credentials to be a first-ballot HOF'er, I don't know if he will make it in on the first try. He didn't block for any HOF QBs or RBs, and I'm not sure if any of his teams even won a playoff game. Randall McDaniel had to wait a few years, and he had more Pro Bowls (12 to 11) and, more importantly, more All-Pro nods (7 to 3) than Roaf. I realize I'm comparing a tackle and a guard, but hey, they're both offensive linemen.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I'm also extremely disillusioned with the voting process right now. Floyd Little and his incredibly mediocre stats getting in the HOF, to me, is the equivalent of Bill Mazeroski getting in the baseball HOF.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>While I believe that Roaf has the credentials to be a first-ballot HOF'er, I don't know if he will make it in on the first try. He didn't block for any HOF QBs or RBs, and I'm not sure if any of his teams even won a playoff game. Randall McDaniel had to wait a few years, and he had more Pro Bowls (12 to 11) and, more importantly, more All-Pro nods (7 to 3) than Roaf. I realize I'm comparing a tackle and a guard, but hey, they're both offensive linemen. >>
You may be right. Could be one of the other 1st ballot RBs (I would guess Bettis) or they could also go with Dermontti as the next lineman. I really havent heard much on Roaf. Most of the first ballot talk for next year (which has been very little talk) is about Deion and the 3 RBs and how they will sort that all out.
Tackles do get much higher points than Guards though.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I'm also extremely disillusioned with the voting process right now. Floyd Little and his incredibly mediocre stats getting in the HOF, to me, is the equivalent of Bill Mazeroski getting in the baseball HOF. >>
There was strong dissention against Little since the Senior selections were announced last summer. Over the past month however, the Denver rep (can't remember his name) campaigned as hard as anyone ever has for someone they were presenting. It's why I added him to my predicted class just days before the voting. The ground swell for Little and jackson was too big to ignore. Then in the presentation he killed it, wowed the crowd. Said he'd reviewed every play in Little's career or something to that affect and that he was hit behind the line over 30% of his career carries.
Look, there isn't a Senior candidate alive who isn't a borderline HOFer. no sure fire HOFer goes 25+ years before getting inducted. Its just part of the voting game. until they get more knowledgable voters who can think for themselves, it will continue. In the grand scheme of things I'm fine with it. He's one of the weaker modern HOF RBs, but the weakest? I'd still apply that to Doak Walker and John Henry Johnson...It just baffles me that Claude Humphrey didn't get the 80% last year though...How do you vote in Little and not Humphrey?
I'm telling you, the voters need to be given a written football history exam prior to each year and anyone who fails it is replaced...lol...Open that to ALL people too. Fans, coaches, players. You either know the game or you don't.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
<< <i>CONGRATS Floyd Little! Bronco Fans know why you were elected. Its a travisty that you are only the 2nd true Bronco to make the Hall............ >>
Wouldn't Randy Gradishar and Shannon Sharpe be more deserving? Just your opinion as a Bronco fan..
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
There have been several other pairs who were from the same college inducted into the HOF at the same time (most recently Lynn Swann and Ron Yary), but they weren't on the collegiate team together.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>1984 topps on the Jackson, right? I have one but can't remember what grade it is right now. >>
Correct. Same one we voted onto the HOF RC Modern set last month.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>Odd note about this year's class - Rickey Jackson and Russ Grimm were teammates at Pitt, class of '81. >>
Mark May and Hugh Green were in that class, too.
<< <i>Hey Rocke! I'm glad you finally made it over to this blog and hopefully many contributors recognize you for all your postings on the FB HOF autograph thread. Your knowledge about the HOF will be invaluable. Welcome abroad! >>
Hey Joe,
Thanks for the kind words. I DO appreciate it. I doubt that I will be able to offer anything earth shattering concerning HoF Rookie cards, but I CAN offer some insight to The Hall of Fame, Enshrinees ( I have had the GREAT honor to have met 164 out of 260 ) and what Hall of Fame week is all about. As a little sidenote, my 12 year old son has had his picture taken with at LEAST one Hall of Famer from EVERY class except 4 ( 1963 , 1964, 1997, and 2005 ) it will be 3 as of next month when I get his picture with Don Shula in Chantilly, Va.
Rocke
A Guido Merkens sighting.
Wouldn't Lionel Taylor, the Broncos star end from the 1960's, be a better HOF choice than Little? No love for the old AFL players.
Lebeau is in the HOF over : Jack Butler, Bobby Dillion, Bobby Boyd, Erich Barnes, Ed Meador, Jimmy Patton, D. Lynch, Johnnie Robinson, and Dave Grayson??
Perhaps it was his three pro bowl selections and zero all-pro seasons. Or his ball-hawking 62 int's. Maybe he got in with his 13-33 head coaching record. Or his eight years as def. coordinator for the mediocre Bengals team defenses of the 1980's. At least his time with the Steelers has been HOF worthy. But I thought he was inducted for his playing only?
At any rate, Lebeau is a nice guy who's worked many years in the NFL, and was well liked by his peers and players. All points which must have played a part in his election.
You could change the title of this HOF rookies set to the HOTVG.
Hall of the very good.
So I ask this of you, what do all of YOU hold as a standard for what makes an NFL Hall of Famer? What is your personal criteria?
You gotta ask why??? Too many Packers in already from those many championship teams from the 1960's? If that's the reason, then that's just BS.
Not to hate on Russ Grimm, but Kramer deserves to be in the HOF before that hog made it.
Plus the modern game with the sheer number of teams and corresponding talent dilution have made for some great stats from the league leaders. This HOF RC set is fun to put together but I also enjoy picking up RC's from other great players whether or not they make it to Canton.
<< <i>
<< <i>CONGRATS Floyd Little! Bronco Fans know why you were elected. Its a travisty that you are only the 2nd true Bronco to make the Hall............ >>
Wouldn't Randy Gradishar and Shannon Sharpe be more deserving? Just your opinion as a Bronco fan.. >>
I feel Little was more than deserving. Durring his 9 years with the Broncos he was only behind Oj Simpson in rushing yards. If he had played for an east coast team it would not have taken 30 years for him to get in. Rickey Jackson making the Hall before Gradishar is a joke. Sharpe should have been a 1st ballot guy but will make it next year. All in my Bronco fan opinion.. Lol...
And Bronkota, Here is a little Ohio State opinion for you. It is a COMPLETE joke that Randy Gradishar has not yet been elected. In a time that sees more offensive plays being run in a game now than many years ago, Rarely do you see ANYBODY make over 200 tackles in a YEAR. Randy made 2,049 in ten years. Do the math. He AVERAGED 205 tackles a year !!!! Oh, by the way, that was in 14 game season's, not the current 16. Not to mention 5x 1st team ALL-PRO, 1x 2nd team ALL-PRO , 7x pro bowler , 1978 defensive player of the year.
Unbelievable !!!
Rocke
<< <i>
So I ask this of you, what do all of YOU hold as a standard for what makes an NFL Hall of Famer? What is your personal criteria? >>
I think the criteria is that there is no criteria. Much like grading cards, its a subjective process. There are measurables and stats, but they do not account for the full package.
Me personally, I base it on dominance consistently display on the field over a significant period of time. And perceived dominance is also subjective, but for me, I base it on comparisons with others at the same position during the same era first. And comparisons with similar players from different eras being secondary. If they guy is a top 2-3 player at his position for 5+ years, he should be in the HOF. Sometimes there are more than 3 HOF quality guys playing in the league at the same position at the same time. Those are the cases that create reason for debate.
Really my ONLY complaint with the HOF voting is that they need to fix/change/adjust the voters. The process of present/debate/vote as the cut from 15-10-5 is genius. But find a way for GMs or Pro Player personnel guys to be part of the voting. Maybe 30 media and 30 NFL GMs...Every single HOF Voter should be an EXPERT in judging talent. Right now, its about 70% in the room who are experts, and the rest fall between bandwagon guys and semi-clueless...At the very least, there should be an entrance exam. Right now, they just choose guys based on recommendations, and that allows some real low football IQs in the room. I mean THE PRESIDENT of the HOF announced Rickey Jackson as Randy...I mean are you kidding me????? He shouldn't even NEED to read off a card. Tell me the names once who made it and I can quote you career stats of the guys off the top of my head. THAT is the level those guys should be operating on if they want the HOF to remain relevant. Don't tell me it's not a big deal. The Super Bowl tonight is going to be the most watched TV program in the history of television. People care about football, and the HOF should be treated as importanatly as anything they do. Because that is where the history of the game is preserved.
Ok, off the soapbox and off to the Super Bowl party....lol
Colts 31-Saints 27
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I completely agree about the Jerry Kramer snub. The guy was voted to the NFL's all-time team for it's first 50 years and I believe he might be the only one from that team that is not enshrined in the HOF.
You gotta ask why??? Too many Packers in already from those many championship teams from the 1960's? If that's the reason, then that's just BS.
Not to hate on Russ Grimm, but Kramer deserves to be in the HOF before that hog made it. >>
Another interesting fact on Grimm is that he only played in 30/76 games the last five years of his career. He was dependable his first 6 years but missed alot of time after that time period.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I'm in total agrement...Gradishar and Kramer should be in. period.
Watching nfl yesterday...Rod Woodson basically snubbed the process and said they need to add HOF players...for some actual FB knowledge.
Like the fact that Vince collects guys not just in the HOF...That's why I also do the all time AFL set.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
1-Shannon Sharpe
2-Cris Carter
3-Tommy Nobis
4-Jerry Kramer
5-Richard Dent
6-Bob Kuechenberg
7-Dermontti Dawson
8-Randy Gradishar
9-Mick Tingelhoff
10-Tim Brown
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
the others still have a shot and will have ther day.
Not saying they weren't snubbed recently.
I'm predicting The Saints by 10.
They are going to rattle peytons cage.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Since we are talking snubs...Who are your top 10 ALL-TIME HOF snubs...Opinions on who you think should be in, not who you think will or won't, but if you were a voter, who would you put in. Look through the Modern and Senior future HOF sets and see what you come up with.....Here's mine:
1-Shannon Sharpe
2-Cris Carter
3-Tommy Nobis
4-Jerry Kramer
5-Richard Dent
6-Bob Kuechenberg
7-Dermontti Dawson
8-Randy Gradishar
9-Mick Tingelhoff
10-Tim Brown >>
Nice list, but can we remember the likes of Al Wistert, Mac Speedie, Ray Guy, Lavvie Dilweg, Maxie Baughan, Lester Hayes and Joe Fortunato.
Jerome Bettis, Marshall Faulk, Willie Roaf, Deion Sanders, Jimmy Smith will be some of the big names on the ballot
bettis, faulk, roaf, and sanders should be locks. that leavs room for two or three more. i think shannon sharpe and cris carter will get in next year also
Maybe this is bad timing with the HOF inductions and the Super Bowl all happening, but I'll post here and ask all you HOF rookie experts for some help with this. That beautiful Mel Hein rookie card you see above that was a 9, just bumped to a (1/1) Gem Mint 10 !!! Considering Fight For Old DC Isaacson paid almost $9,000.00 for a Mel Hein 9, what might this card fetch?
<< <i>
<< <i>Since we are talking snubs...Who are your top 10 ALL-TIME HOF snubs...Opinions on who you think should be in, not who you think will or won't, but if you were a voter, who would you put in. Look through the Modern and Senior future HOF sets and see what you come up with.....Here's mine:
1-Shannon Sharpe
2-Cris Carter
3-Tommy Nobis
4-Jerry Kramer
5-Richard Dent
6-Bob Kuechenberg
7-Dermontti Dawson
8-Randy Gradishar
9-Mick Tingelhoff
10-Tim Brown >>
Nice list, but can we remember the likes of Al Wistert, Mac Speedie, Ray Guy, Lavvie Dilweg, Maxie Baughan, Lester Hayes and Joe Fortunato. >>
I pretty much agree on all these guys. I think from Jason's top ten list, all those guys will get in within the next 10 years. On Scott's old-time list, we can only hope they don't have to wait that long. My top two old-time pre 1950 guys deserving to get to the Hall next are Wistert and Dilweg.
Jason, I totally agree on the voting process needing some tweaking. If some of these voters don't even know who they are casting votes for, they should be tossed out of the process. A history of Football test should be a requirement. Plus many, many hours of film study.
<< <i>
Nice list, but can we remember the likes of Al Wistert, Mac Speedie, Ray Guy, Lavvie Dilweg, Maxie Baughan, Lester Hayes and Joe Fortunato. >>
Of these, IMO, only Wistert, Dilweg and Lester Hayes should be in...But not above anyone in my top 10...
I still can't but the argument for a player who averages 10 plays a game (punter), rarely gets touched, and never scores a point deserves to be in the HOF over guys who played every down in the trenches and/or scored 100+ TDs..Sorry.
2011 is the LAST modern era shot for Ray Guy and Lester Hayes! One or both should at least make the final 15 and get their case heard one more time..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>who gets in next year?
Jerome Bettis, Marshall Faulk, Willie Roaf, Deion Sanders, Jimmy Smith will be some of the big names on the ballot
bettis, faulk, roaf, and sanders should be locks. that leavs room for two or three more. i think shannon sharpe and cris carter will get in next year also >>
MAX of 5 modern candidates..You also forgot Curtis martin..Unfortunately my bot J-Smith isn't sniffing the HOF for awhile if ever...
Also, would be a first to have 4 first ballot guys..I don't see it happening..Faulk will trump Bettis and Martin and push them back to a weak 2012 first ballot class (Bill Parcells will be the only 2012 first ballot guy)...
Here's your class for next year, you heard it here first! lol
Deion Sanders
Marshall Faulk
Willie Roaf
Richard Dent
Shannon Sharpe
Bob Kuechenberg
Tommy Nobis
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>my bet is that Brady ends up as #1 QB for the 90's. 3 SB's vs 1?? >>
2000-2009 Total MVP Votes
Peyton Manning 160 1/2
Tom Brady 67
LaDainian Tomlinson 44
Kurt Warner 34
Marshall Faulk 32
Shouldn't be any question who the greatest player of the decade is...Even though he chokes more often than not in the big games...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>my bet is that Brady ends up as #1 QB for the 90's. 3 SB's vs 1?? >>
2000-2009 Total MVP Votes
Peyton Manning 160 1/2
Tom Brady 67
LaDainian Tomlinson 44
Kurt Warner 34
Marshall Faulk 32
Shouldn't be any question who the greatest player of the decade is...Even though he chokes more often than not in the big games...
Jason >>
well we had elway over favre in the 90's. i am sure favre had more mvp votes, td's etc in the 90's than elway. but elway had one more ring.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>THAT IS SO COOL TAKING THE HOFERS OUT TO EAT AND THEN TO THE AIRPORT.
I'm in total agrement...Gradishar and Kramer should be in. period.
Watching nfl yesterday...Rod Woodson basically snubbed the process and said they need to add HOF players...for some actual FB knowledge.
Like the fact that Vince collects guys not just in the HOF...That's why I also do the all time AFL set. >>
It is really neat getting to do this. I truly feel honored that I have been asked by Jane to help her out with her autograph guests. It used to be her and her husband, but he passed away a few years ago, and beleive it or not, I kind of stumbled into doing this for her. After the autograph signing is done, the card show part still goes on for a couple of hours, and she needs to stay and take care of all the dealers, take down her tables, collect dealer fees etc.... etc.
Since I have been doing this for her, I have got to take out to eat / take to the airport the following :
Ray Guy
Roger Wehrli
Fred Dean
Andre Reed
Bernie Kosar
Bob Keuchenberg
Rayfield Wright
Chuck Bednarik
Michael Dean Perry
In two weeks she is having Dan Hampton. I will get to pick him up early Sunday AM take him out to eat before the show, take him to the show, take him out after the show, then to the airport. I have already had M.D.Perry and Bernie Kosar over to my house before shows to show them my extensive autograph collection because we had some time to kill before I had to have them AT the show. I hope that I have time with Dan before the show to get him over. That is my BIG goal, to have a Hall of Famer at my home to see my collection. THAT , as they say, would be " The icing on the cake "
I know that I am Blessed.
Rocke
Chokes? What are you talking about?? Chokes??? He's getting ready to drive his team down the field in the Super Bowl for the game-tying touch......oh, wait..uh, nevermind.
Jasen
(sorry, Dave)
<< <i>
well we had elway over favre in the 90's. i am sure favre had more mvp votes, td's etc in the 90's than elway. but elway had one more ring. >>
I still don't know how Elway was the '90s QB over Aikman and Young, let alone Favre.
Jasen
<< <i>
well we had elway over favre in the 90's. i am sure favre had more mvp votes, td's etc in the 90's than elway. but elway had one more ring. >>
Yeah, you're right..Good point...
So what if they never announce the voting or first/second teams anywhere officially?
Do we just not create the set?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Since we are talking snubs...Who are your top 10 ALL-TIME HOF snubs...Opinions on who you think should be in, not who you think will or won't, but if you were a voter, who would you put in. Look through the Modern and Senior future HOF sets and see what you come up with.....Here's mine:
1-Shannon Sharpe
2-Cris Carter
3-Tommy Nobis
4-Jerry Kramer
5-Richard Dent
6-Bob Kuechenberg
7-Dermontti Dawson
8-Randy Gradishar
9-Mick Tingelhoff
10-Tim Brown >>
You have some guys there who I think are on the right track and will get in sooner or later, (Keuchenberg, Sharpe, Dent, Dawson, Carter and Brown), so I'll skip them. They all have the resume to be in and I'm in favor of them all being enshrined.
Nobis, Kramer, Tinglehoff and Gradishar are all on my list. So are Chris Hanburger, Lester Hayes, Jerry Smith (I know I'm alone but I don't care), Dave Robinson, Winston Hill and L.C. Greenwood.
None of this even begins to address the backlog of 60's and '70's WRs like Otis Taylor, Cliff Branch, Harold Carmichael or Isaac Curtis, (just to name a few.)
<< <i>I still can't but the argument for a player who averages 10 plays a game (punter), rarely gets touched, and never scores a point deserves to be in the HOF over guys who played every down in the trenches and/or scored 100+ TDs..Sorry. >>
I see your point. I would make punters and modern fullbacks lower priority as well for their lesser impact on games, but they are still positions that teams in the league employ and use and, as such, there will be dominant players at those positions. If I take my nephews to the HOF and try to teach them about the game, they'll never have a clue that punting is part of football. Quite an important part of football, actually. Something about that doesn't sit right with me.
Personally, I'd rather see the best punter ever in the HOF than a defensive end who was nearly useless on running plays or another durable wider receiver. Lord knows they will all have their day.
At best these days...Most play either Off or Def..thats just 1/2 the game.
Lets take a running back for example. In the old days and even today a 100 yard game rushing is considered good.
Maybe throw in a few extra for recieving. So he has a value of about 120 yards per game.
Now Ray Guy punts 10 times. He gives you an extra 5 yards/punt X10 for 50 yards. His punts were so high that they were not returned for all that much vs. other punters...
so although not actual yards so to speak its 50-75 negative yards in field position the other team didn't get. So he equals a running back in value to his team.
When you consider all the botched long snaps Guy handles and even ran for 1st downs (far more common then as we have specialized long snappers now)
The raiders could have an extra player as they didn't need a 3rd string QB as most other teams did. Guy was the 3rd string QB. Yes he did play QB. I saw him run an entire 1/2 game as QB due to injuries. Didn't throw any long passes....but what an attribute to have him.
So a def pass rusher who gets a few sacks is a hofer? Isn't that highly specialized also.
Punting is an important part of the game...Lets put the best punter in the history of the NFL in the hall where he deserves.
I had an email discussion with a fellow board member about Guy last night. I respect all opinions.
Didn't I predict the saints by 10 !!!!
Did ya all see the very worried look on Peytons face the whole 2nd half.
Rattle his cage...he breaks down. 4 mvps....yet he's no Joe Montana
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
His totals keep increasing 4 mvps, 1 super bowl mvp (I still say that Rex Grossman's 5 int, 3 fumbles made him the mvp for the colts), and yadda yadda are just numbers, he lacks the intangibles of Montana and others.
I finally broke down and bought an SP authentic card for both Manning and Brady, but I definately had more issues dropping that kind of money for Manning, not Brady.
For his career Guy punted or was the punter in 207 games and punted 1049 times...his NON-Punting stats:
Rushing- 11 rushes, 43 yards, 0 TDs
Passing- 2 for 3, 54 yds, 1 INT, 0 TDs (sacked once for -12 yds)
His punting stats:
1049 punts
42.7 avg
128 Touchbacks (12.2%),
210 times Inside 20 (20.0%)
NET average (minus return yards) 35.1
Now, lets compare to say Sean Landeta...All-Decade for the 80's punter...
His punting stats:
1401 punts
43.3 avg
166 touchbacks (11.8%)
381 times Inside 20 (27.2%)
NET average (minus return yards) 35.5
Or, how about Reggie Roby, who gets nominated for the HOF every year...
His punting stats:
992 punts
43.3 avg
112 touchbacks (11.3%)
298 times Inside 20 (30.0%)
NET average (minus return yards) 36.4
How is Ray Guy better than any of these guys? Roby had the same, if not better, hang time on his booming punts..Both of these guys have better numbers across the board than Guy. This is why he is not in the HOF. The only way a Punter, Special Teamer, Kick returner is ever getting in the HOF is if they are so dominant at the position that they are far and away the greatest of all-time with numbers to prove it. And his 11 rushes and 3 passes over 14 years, I'm sorry those do not sway my opinion.
You can debate if Punters belong in the HOF or not, but Guy was NOT so much better than all other punters that he deserves to be enshrined over other players who contributed more. Just looking at the teams Guy played on. Do you actually believe he contirbuted more to the success of those Raiders teams than Ken Stabler? Lester Hayes? Cliff Branch? You want Guy to take one of their slots? That's crazy...He would need to be hands down, unquestioned greatest Punter of all-time, but every time his name has gotten into the room as a finalist, he gets destroyed by the naysayers who show the same type comparisons that i just did above.
Maybe one day the committee will set aside a slot every few years for coaches, contributors, and special teamers. If that happens, then go ahead and induct him. But don't take slots away from Sharpe, Dent, Carter, Dawson, etc. to elect punters, other special teamers marginal coaches who never won it all and owners.
Just my oinions of course, but much of this comes from past info I received in reference to the Ray Guy debates among the HOF committee.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Is he great - yes. Is he a dick - yes. Having sat next to him at a chartity dinner, he truly is not the person in the commercials. >>
Funny you say that. I got to meet and greet with him in Hawaii during a Pro Bowl a few years back, watch him interact with people quite a bit. My thoughts coming away from that was that he is a dufus..lol
On the field, he's a genius, but you'd never guess it if you just met him and didn't know who he was...He has no people skills...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
Nobis, Kramer, Tinglehoff and Gradishar are all on my list. So are Chris Hanburger, Lester Hayes, Jerry Smith (I know I'm alone but I don't care), Dave Robinson, Winston Hill and L.C. Greenwood.
None of this even begins to address the backlog of 60's and '70's WRs like Otis Taylor, Cliff Branch, Harold Carmichael or Isaac Curtis, (just to name a few.) >>
I like the chances of Nobis, Gradishar and Dave Robinson. Eventually the senior committee will put a couple of LBs in the HOF and that's probably your top 3 candidates according to the voters. Nobis and Robinson have been VERY close in the senior vote the last few years. Each has made the final 5 senior candidates. Last year was Gradishar's first year in the Senior pool, and he didn;t even make the 15 semifinalists..Which was surprising to me. I'm not sure how that bodes for him moving forward, but he made the modern finalists so he does have some support.
Greenwood is going to have a tough time getting past Humphrey. In fact, don't be shocked to see old Claude pull a Bob Hayes one of these years and be a Senior guy again. And that is a quote from a senior committee member..lol
Winston Hill and Jerry Smith are long forgotten. Never happening for either of them. Hanburger, I don't know why he gets no love, but none of the voters push for him. He's NEVER made the final 15 seniors, and thats not good.
Tingelhoff was getting to the final 5 a few years back, but has since fallen back to the back. i don;t know if he'll ever make it or not. Kramer is still and probably will always be looked at as over rated. Universally believed that his election to the top 50 all-time players was a"botch job"...I think he is HOF material, and had a HUGE push last year, yet still didn't get selected. Not sure if he ever will now either. I think he's definitely behind Kuechenberg and Tingelhoff among the O-lineman..Which means you're looking at 15+ years possible..lol
2011 is Lester Hayes (and Ray Guy's) last year as modern candidates. I do feel that Hayes will eventually get in Emmitt Thomas style as a Senior.
Otis Taylor is the closest (and probably only) WR in that group to getting selected...He's made the final 5 the last 2 years...I wouldn't be shocked to see him as one of the slections within the next few years. I don't see any of the others ever making it. Branch would probably be the next in line after taylor, but no way he will get in before Stabler.
Early favorites for next year are Kuech and Nobis. Outside shots for Taylor, Robinson and Gradishar. Throw Claude Humphrey in there as a possible again. Maybe a Stabler, although i think he will get his push in 2012. For the old-timers, maybe Wistert..but my thinking is, they won't pick any pre-1960 guys again until the 70+ age voters go back to Canton for selection which is i think 2012 or 2013. Cant remember, I will ask. So 2012, I see Stabler and Wistert, but that is only based on opinions, there are no official plans OR rumors about Class of 2012 Seniors..lol..but my 2011 picks for next year ARE based on info received.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>While I believe that Roaf has the credentials to be a first-ballot HOF'er, I don't know if he will make it in on the first try. He didn't block for any HOF QBs or RBs, and I'm not sure if any of his teams even won a playoff game. Randall McDaniel had to wait a few years, and he had more Pro Bowls (12 to 11) and, more importantly, more All-Pro nods (7 to 3) than Roaf. I realize I'm comparing a tackle and a guard, but hey, they're both offensive linemen. >>
You may be right. Could be one of the other 1st ballot RBs (I would guess Bettis) or they could also go with Dermontti as the next lineman. I really havent heard much on Roaf. Most of the first ballot talk for next year (which has been very little talk) is about Deion and the 3 RBs and how they will sort that all out.
Tackles do get much higher points than Guards though.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I'm also extremely disillusioned with the voting process right now. Floyd Little and his incredibly mediocre stats getting in the HOF, to me, is the equivalent of Bill Mazeroski getting in the baseball HOF. >>
There was strong dissention against Little since the Senior selections were announced last summer. Over the past month however, the Denver rep (can't remember his name) campaigned as hard as anyone ever has for someone they were presenting. It's why I added him to my predicted class just days before the voting. The ground swell for Little and jackson was too big to ignore. Then in the presentation he killed it, wowed the crowd. Said he'd reviewed every play in Little's career or something to that affect and that he was hit behind the line over 30% of his career carries.
Look, there isn't a Senior candidate alive who isn't a borderline HOFer. no sure fire HOFer goes 25+ years before getting inducted. Its just part of the voting game. until they get more knowledgable voters who can think for themselves, it will continue. In the grand scheme of things I'm fine with it. He's one of the weaker modern HOF RBs, but the weakest? I'd still apply that to Doak Walker and John Henry Johnson...It just baffles me that Claude Humphrey didn't get the 80% last year though...How do you vote in Little and not Humphrey?
I'm telling you, the voters need to be given a written football history exam prior to each year and anyone who fails it is replaced...lol...Open that to ALL people too. Fans, coaches, players. You either know the game or you don't.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.