For those of you whom do not follow the Vintage Sportscard Trading Forum, a number of Football Hall Of Fame rookie card prices were just discounted on the ones I'm selling. Some of the more notable reductions include:
No doubt this has already been dealt with in past posts, but I'll ask anyway.
Is Lomas Brown really so far from the HOF discussion as not to be included as a modern candidate in the Future HOF set?? How many guys get All Pro seven times and don't get into the hall?
I think you have a point on Lomas Brown. It seems OL often gets overlooked.
Lomas Brown Lomas Brown Jr.
Position: T Height: 6-4 Weight: 282 lbs. Born: March 30, 1963 in Miami, FL College: Florida
Career AV: 96 (177th overall since 1950)
7-time Pro Bowler & 1-time First-Team All-Pro (fine print)
Similar Players Career Mike Kenn, Will Shields, Bruce Armstrong, Gene Hickerson*, Jackie Slater*, Mick Tingelhoff, Jim Otto*, Russ Washington, Mike Webster*, Kevin Mawae
<< <i>No doubt this has already been dealt with in past posts, but I'll ask anyway.
Is Lomas Brown really so far from the HOF discussion as not to be included as a modern candidate in the Future HOF set?? How many guys get All Pro seven times and don't get into the hall?
Jason? >>
Yes, he is very far. 7 All-Pro's? Virtually ALL get in with 7 All-Pro's. But Lomas Brown was only an All-Pro ONCE. He went to 7 Pro Bowls, and there are a TON (especially O-Lineman) who do not get in with 7 Pro Bowls. Take last year for example. Look how many players were considered "Pro Bowlers". Pro bowl apperances have become virtually meaningless in the HOF debate, and I believe the recent classes confirm that. How many "Pro Bowls" did Russ Grimm have?
Of course, you would be free to NOMINATE Lomas Brown for addition to the set next January when we have our next vote here on the boards. He would however need a majority of the collectors voting to approve his addition.
IMO, he was a good lineman, but no where near being a HOFer. He's been HOF eligible for 3 years now and hasn't made the top 25 yet. If he ever makes the top 25, i will consider throwing him a vote to add to the set. until then, what reason would I or anyone else have to request his addition? There are MANY O-Lineman who are HOF eligible yet do not make the top 25. If we add Brown, shouldn;t we also add all of the other 10-12 OL who get nominated but don't make the top 25?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason has a good point, if you look at Jay Hilgenberg, 2 all-pros, 7 pro bowls and he gets no recognition for the hall. I know he's a center and it's tuff for centers, but he played on a dominant Bears team in the '80's and blocked for a HOF running back in Payton.
Jason, thanks for the '48 Bowman Pihos, it's a great looking card.
I do have a '48 Bowman Pihos PSA 3 for sale $30.00 shipped. SOLD I have a scan of it in my showcase, should be the first card.
<< <i>No doubt this has already been dealt with in past posts, but I'll ask anyway.
Is Lomas Brown really so far from the HOF discussion as not to be included as a modern candidate in the Future HOF set?? How many guys get All Pro seven times and don't get into the hall?
Jason? >>
Yes, he is very far. 7 All-Pro's? Virtually ALL get in with 7 All-Pro's. But Lomas Brown was only an All-Pro ONCE. He went to 7 Pro Bowls, and there are a TON (especially O-Lineman) who do not get in with 7 Pro Bowls. >>
Whoops. I trusted Wikipedia on something without double-checking. And I'm usually the person who ridicules others for doing that.
Never would've asked if I had the fact straight. Thanks for the response, though.
<< <i>It can happen, Jackie Slater had 7 pro-bowls and zero all-pros. >>
There are actually quite a few HOFers with zero All-Pro's. Looking at just players who's careers started after 1960-
-Jackie Smith -Elvin Bethea -Roger Stubach -Jackie Slater (as mentioned) -Harry Carson -Rickey Jackson -John Elway -Warren Moon -Troy Aikman
None of these were ever voted first team All-Pro, and of these Jackie Smith had the fewest Pro Bowls, 5.
Of course when speaking of All-Pro selections, I am speaking strictly of FIRST TEAM selections. Those were the players with the most votes, and the AP tends to be the most widely recognized although some others do carry some weight as well at times (PFWA, Sporting News, etc). There is no one thing or one category that guarantees HOF election. It's a subjective process much like grading cards, except that they have a collection of voters who vote and make the selections. All-Pros, Pro Bowls, Super Bowls, Post Season Awards, statistical milestones, etc. They all play a part.
As far as Lomas Brown goes, he was never considered one of the best OT's of all-time, not to mention of even his own era. Really good player? sure absolutely. But stack up the OL who are currently eligible for the HOF, but have not yet been inducted and Brown ends up pretty far down the list. Then you add in the OL who are coming up in the next few years like Roaf, Larry Allen, Ogden, Pace, Walter Jones, etc. and I think you will realize that Brown will never make it. Just too many who were better at his own position. I mean you only get 5 modern candidates from ALL POSITIONS. Cris Carter isn't in. Shannon Sharpe isn't in. Richard Dent, Dermontti Dawson, the list goes on. OL is one of the tougher positions to grade/analyze so yes they do tend to get snubbed more often than the glamour positions that can rack up numbers.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here are the PFHOF OL nominees from last year. This is how I would rank them:
Russ Grimm, G- Elected to HOF 2010 Dermontti Dawson, C- Made top 15 Modern Finalists 2010 Joe Jacoby, T- Has made the top 25 in the past, 2008 I think was the last time Jim Covert, T Tony Boselli, T Steve Wisniewski, G Mike Kenn, T Jay Hilgenberg, C Chris Hinton, G/T Lomas Brown, T Jim Lachey, T Kent Hull, C Max Montoya, G Korey Stringer, T
Dawson will eventually get elected. Jacoby and all others below most likely never will.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hell of a group there, but yeah, most of them not HOF level.
I truly only brought up Lomas Brown because of that bit of misinformation about the All Pro selections. I wasn't arguing for his inclusion based on rep alone. I mean, I really liked him and Glover in front of Barry Sanders but it doesn't seem like a gross injustice that he is not going to get in.
I can tell you guys that once Dent gets in, there's going to be a huge Chicago-based push for Covert or Hilgenberg to make it. Fans here still believe that O-line was severely under appreciated. They were a super cohesive group and they made a couple of skill players appear better than they actually were, but I don't think I can remember enough about each individual's play to form a HOF opinion there.
That is crazy! I would have lost money in a bet that Elway was never AP 1st team. How can he be AP MVP in 1987 and not make 1st team all-pro? >>
Two Words...Joe..Montana...lol..Elway was 2nd team in 1987. And Jerry Rice was the 1987 Offensive Player of the Year! He had more receiving TDs than Elway had passing TDs.
Keep in mind that was the strike season, so most NFL stars only played in 12 games that year. So there was less to go on than a typical season. I guess the voters just split all the awards up..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Zero first-team AP's yet he's the all-decade QB for the '90s??? I think that's more support for my opinion that Young, Favre or Aikman should have been the '90s all-decade QB ahead of Elway. Young had the superior numbers and an SB win, Aikman had 3 rings, Favre had one ring in two SB appearances and three (!) MVPs. Elway got two rings but at the tail end of his career thanks in large part to T.Davis. Are they sure they tallied the votes right on that one???
<< <i>Zero first-team AP's yet he's the all-decade QB for the '90s??? I think that's more support for my opinion that Young, Favre or Aikman should have been the '90s all-decade QB ahead of Elway. Young had the superior numbers and an SB win, Aikman had 3 rings, Favre had one ring in two SB appearances and three (!) MVPs. Elway got two rings but at the tail end of his career thanks in large part to T.Davis. Are they sure they tallied the votes right on that one???
Jasen >>
Honestly, the time the vote was taken played a HUGE part in that vote. It was after the 1999 season, one year prior Elway won his 2nd consecutive Super Bowl and retired, riding off into the sunset. Love Elway, definitely one of the biggest arms and one of the best crunch time QBs to ever play. But many forget that he lost 3 Super Bowls in the 80's, before finally winning the 2 after Terrell Davis came on board. Because of his crunch time heroics/memories, he tends to be a bit over rated at times IMO. Had Marino gotten Davis in his backfield, he would have gotten his Super Bowl ring(s) finally too.
Don't get me wrong, Elway is a top 10 QB of all-time, but I've seen rankings that put him in the top 5, and if you look at the numbers and watch the tape that's just over rating him a tad. I witnessed his entire career and until he won those Super Bowls, he was always considered #3 of his era behind Montana and Marino. And I think he still belongs #3 in that debate.
For the team of the 1990s, Favre should have been first team and Elway second IMO. Three MVPs in the decade? Nough said.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
It wasn't Isaacson (the #1 set). Thats alot of coin to throw at a card. Seems a little too off center for my taste even though it is an 8.5. I'd take a perfectly centered 8 any day.
That seller (wcsports1) seems to come up with a lot of gift grades.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Who won the 52 Matson 8.5 ? I noticed a few of the bidders had 80% and 100% of their bids to the seller. Not saying it was shilled or anything...... >>
Ugly card going for sick money. The corners on it must have been perfect, because it certainly didnt get that 8.5 grade based on its centering..... Thanks for emailing that auction to me Jay-Z, but Im pretty happy with my centered 8 and $4k in my pocket!
Oh and Dave, Yaks got the rare 75 grade on his, way better than an 8.5.
Agreed on all accounts. I thought the 1/2 grades were for the high end centered cards...... The 7.5 is noticeably better than the 8.5 my 8 also is better imo. Worthy of grade or not..it still counts. Lets face it...its ultra scarce on auction. when was the last psa 8 on auction? years ago. The last I know of was a private sale.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Hey all, Dan here #18. Just spent the past two days reading all...OK a bunch of the posts...Love this stuff! I'm a newbie so drop a line if I'm doing anything stupid. Question, has anyone sent any John Randle Pro Set #835 in for grading and received a less than great grade? I just sent in two pack fresh and they came back 8"s...can't see the dif. with my 9 and it can't be centering on that card right? Anyway, if anyone needs an eight, I got two...yay!!!
Wow. The registry will make people do crazy things. The corners do look great -- but while I value corners and edges over centering I can't see 8.5 there.
Dan, that 7.5 looks great. I'd almost say it's better than my 8. Almost.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
If you are buying from someone on this thread, the good thing is, we all know each other for the most part. I'd say it's a tight knit group overall, and if you were to get stiffed by someone who posts to this thread, the news would spread like wildfire. I've never had an issue buying or selling with anyone who is "in to" the set enough to post here regularly. And we are talking probably hundreds of deals over the years.
I wasn't that shocked at the Matson 8.5 price. Even being low end for the grade, it's just so tough to come by, even in straight 8. It got expensive early, which was a sign of things to come.
In other news, I'm moving back to Hawaii in a couple of months! Three more years in paradise, and back to where I started collecting the HOF RCs. SOOO glad to hear they have DirecTV there now. Last time I was there, I had to wake up at 6 AM on football Sunday's and drive to the Sportsbar to see the games I wanted to see and not the 49ers and Chargers... The bad news is my buying and selling will be turned off for a couple of months. My luck, every card I NEED and have been looking for will come available at below market prices during that time..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Was doing some research back around the draft and came up with some interesting debates. Been discussing via e-mail and figured i would see if anyone was in the mood here!.
Rank the top 5 QB classes of all time. The top 15 nominees:
1950- Tobin Rote, Eddie LeBaron 1956- Bart Starr, Earl Morrall 1957- Sonny Jurgensen, Len Dawson, John Brodie 1962- John Hadl, Roman Gabriel 1965- Joe Namath, Craig Morton 1971- Ken Anderson, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann 1979- Joe Montana, Phil Simms 1983- Dan Marino, John Elway, Jim Kelly 1987- Rich Gannon, Vinny Testeverde 1993- Drew Bledsoe, Mark Brunell, Trent Green 1995- Steve McNair, Kerry Collins 1999- Donovan McNabb, Dante Culpepper 2004- Philip Rivers, Eli Manning , Ben Roethlisberger 2008- Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco 2009- Mark Sanchez, Matt Stafford
Let's see what you think....
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Another question...is it pretty safe to buy cards on this site? Actually its a stupid question seeing that I just sent off 62 bucks. >>
Hey Dan, got your payment last night and the card is already on its way with full insurance and delivery confirmation. I will private message you the tracking number, which you can always find in your paypal account too where you sent payment.
I would say overall this is a much safer place to buy cards, especially as Jason said with fellow HOF collectors here. I have never had a problem with anyone selling or buying from on here.
Thanks Drew, got the confirmation. BIG Thanks for helping me fill out my pride and joy set!! Didn't think you were a crook...just curious as a first timer.
Jason,
I would vote 83,57,04,79, 71 based mostly on quantity and quality.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Jason, I know you are more old-school, so I won't blame you for missing some of the more recent spectacular draft classes on your list:
1990 - Jeff George, Andre Ware 1991 - Dan McGwire, Todd Marinovich, Browning Nagle....all taken ahead of Brett Favre 1992 - David Klingler, Tommy Maddox 1994 - Heath Shuler, Trent Dilfer 1999 - (I know you did have this one on your list, but you missed a few key guys) Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown 2002 - David Carr, Joey Harrington 2007 - JaMarcus Russell, Brady Quinn
<< <i>Jason, I know you are more old-school, so I won't blame you for missing some of the more recent spectacular draft classes on your list:
1990 - Jeff George, Andre Ware 1991 - Dan McGwire, Todd Marinovich, Browning Nagle....all taken ahead of Brett Favre 1992 - David Klingler, Tommy Maddox 1994 - Heath Shuler, Trent Dilfer 1999 - (I know you did have this one on your list, but you missed a few key guys) Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown 2002 - David Carr, Joey Harrington 2007 - JaMarcus Russell, Brady Quinn
Jasen >>
LOL..If we were going for WORST QB drafts, we'd have 60 nominees just for starters...Definitely the majority...
As far as best go, Dan listed exactly how I see them. What this came from was from a re-draft conversation. Basically, if you could re-draft any draft year, who would the top 10 picks be..It was a pretty fun debate. Guys like Jared Allen who went in like Round 4 going #1 overall in 2004.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Was doing some research back around the draft and came up with some interesting debates. Been discussing via e-mail and figured i would see if anyone was in the mood here!.
Rank the top 5 QB classes of all time. The top 15 nominees:
1950- Tobin Rote, Eddie LeBaron 1956- Bart Starr, Earl Morrall 1957- Sonny Jurgensen, Len Dawson, John Brodie 1962- John Hadl, Roman Gabriel 1965- Joe Namath, Craig Morton 1971- Ken Anderson, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann 1979- Joe Montana, Phil Simms 1983- Dan Marino, John Elway, Jim Kelly 1987- Rich Gannon, Vinny Testeverde 1993- Drew Bledsoe, Mark Brunell, Trent Green 1995- Steve McNair, Kerry Collins 1999- Donovan McNabb, Dante Culpepper 2004- Philip Rivers, Eli Manning , Ben Roethlisberger 2008- Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco 2009- Mark Sanchez, Matt Stafford
Let's see what you think....
Jason >>
Jason, I'd add KURT WARNER and Jeff Garcia to the 1999 list.
John
edit to add- 1999 was Kurt's "rc' year but he was and undrafted free agent in 1994, and finally signed in the NFL in 1998. My heard hurts. Garcia's story is just as odd.
<< <i><< Any HOF regulars here goin to Balt. this yr. re. the Natl?
Vince, are you thinkin about it? >>
I'll be there Jim. For the cards and hopefully a round of golf and a ballgame. Anyone else? >>
I'll be there Wed, Thurs & Saturday...taking the train to NYC on Friday for Yankees-Red Sox at the new stadium. We'll all need to swap phone #s ahead of time and pick a time & place to meet up, maybe Thursday or Saturday after the show closes?
2004 4 126 KAN Jared Allen DE 1 3 ARI Larry Fitzgerald WR 1 4 NYG Philip Rivers QB 1 1 SDG Eli Manning QB 1 11 PIT Ben Roethlisberger QB 1 24 STL Steven Jackson RB 1 14 CHI Tommie Harris DT 3 64 ARI Darnell Dockett DT 5 154 SDG Michael Turner RB 1 21 NWE Vince Wilfork NT
1983 1 27 MIA Dan Marino HOF QB 1 1 BAL John Elway HOF QB 1 28 WAS Darrell Green HOF DB 1 9 HOU Bruce Matthews HOF G 1 2 RAM Eric Dickerson HOF RB 1 14 BUF Jim Kelly HOF QB 8 203 CHI Richard Dent DE 2 49 SFO Roger Craig RB 12 310 DEN Karl Mecklenburg LB 1 4 DEN Chris Hinton T
1957 1 6 CLE Jim Brown HOF FB 1 8 BAL Jim Parker HOF T 4 43 PHI Sonny Jurgensen HOF QB 1 5 PIT Len Dawson HOF QB 9 109 NYG Don Maynard HOF E 1 1 GNB Paul Hornung HOF HB 5 52 CLE Henry Jordan HOF DT 3 31 PHI Tommy McDonald HOF FL 7 78 CLE Gene Hickerson HOF G 1 3 SFO John Brodie QB
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I think we should add a few guys to these three classes 2004 Class - Missing Matt Schaub 1971 Class - Missing Lynn Dickey and Dan Pastorini 1957 Class - Missing Milt Plum and Jack Kemp
I would add 1998 Class - Peyton Manning and Matt Hasslebeck 1973 Class - Bert Jones, Ron Jaworski, Joe Ferguson, Dan Fouts 1961 Class - Norm Snead, Billy Kilmer, Fran Tarkenton 1949 Class - George Blanda, Norm Van Brocklin, Frank Tripuka, Jim Finks 1948 Class - Bobby Layne, YA Title 1944 Class - Otto Grahm, Bob Waterfield
I would remove the following
1950- Tobin Rote, Eddie LeBaron 1987- Rich Gannon, Vinny Testeverde 1995- Steve McNair, Kerry Collins 1999- Donovan McNabb, Dante Culpepper 2008- Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco (too soon to tell) 2009- Mark Sanchez, Matt Stafford (too soon to tell)
So my classes are listed below in order. 1983- Dan Marino, John Elway, Jim Kelly 1948- Bobby Layne, YA Title 1957- Sonny Jurgensen, Len Dawson, John Brodie, Milt Plum and Jack Kemp 1944- Otto Grahm, Bob Waterfield 1979- Joe Montana, Phil Simms 1961- Norm Snead, Billy Kilmer, Fran Tarkenton 2004- Philip Rivers, Eli Manning , Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Schaub 1998- Peyton Manning and Matt Hasslebeck 1949- George Blanda, Norm Van Brocklin, Frank Tripuka, Jim Finks 1956- Bart Starr, Earl Morrall 1962- John Hadl, Roman Gabriel 1973- Bert Jones, Ron Jaworski, Joe Ferguson, Dan Fouts 1971- Ken Anderson, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann, Lynn Dickey, Dan Pastorini 1965- Joe Namath, Craig Morton 1993- Drew Bledsoe, Mark Brunell, Trent Green
Again, this is all opinion based. But a great way to spend the off season.
I'll probably head down, mainly just to check it out since it's close. Vince, are you flying in from Australia just for the Nat?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I'll be there all week. Arriving Monday night and preloading on Tuesday. Would love to meet up with a few more of you. I think I've met 4 so far, so looking to double that in Baltimore.
<< <i>I'll be there all week. Arriving Monday night and preloading on Tuesday. Would love to meet up with a few more of you. I think I've met 4 so far, so looking to double that in Baltimore. >>
Arriving wed afternoon, leaving Sunday early. Lets grab a beer Scotty, I have a vendor pass so Ill find you at your normal booth. You had suggested a bar in the Soho distrcit named "The Steaming Manhole" or something? How bout we just watch some hockey in the lobby of the hotel instead....
<< Vince, are you flying in from Australia just for the Nat? >>
I head home every year for a few weeks. Last year was my first Nat'l. I'll be there this year -- probably from Wed onwards and flying back to Montreal on Sat night or Sun morning. Big party on the Sunday that I can't miss. Looking forward to meeting some of you guys. If beer is involved I'm in.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
Comments
Lilly - $70.00 DeliveredSOLD
Marshall - $20.00 DeliveredSOLD
Buy both $80.00 DeliveredSOLD
1935 Cliff Battles PSA 7...$850
1935 Clarke Hinkle PSA 8...$3,695 (Perhaps hobby's most eye-appealing high-grade example)
1948 Leaf Sammy Baugh PSA 6...$750
1948 Leaf Chuck Bednarik PSA 6...$2,250
1965 Joe Namath PSA 8....$5,195 (VCP avg. is $5,732)
Is Lomas Brown really so far from the HOF discussion as not to be included as a modern candidate in the Future HOF set?? How many guys get All Pro seven times and don't get into the hall?
Jason?
Lomas Brown
Lomas Brown Jr.
Position: T
Height: 6-4 Weight: 282 lbs.
Born: March 30, 1963 in Miami, FL
College: Florida
Career AV: 96 (177th overall since 1950)
7-time Pro Bowler & 1-time First-Team All-Pro (fine print)
Similar Players
Career Mike Kenn, Will Shields, Bruce Armstrong, Gene Hickerson*, Jackie Slater*, Mick Tingelhoff, Jim Otto*, Russ Washington, Mike Webster*, Kevin Mawae
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrowLo00.htm
<< <i>No doubt this has already been dealt with in past posts, but I'll ask anyway.
Is Lomas Brown really so far from the HOF discussion as not to be included as a modern candidate in the Future HOF set?? How many guys get All Pro seven times and don't get into the hall?
Jason? >>
Yes, he is very far. 7 All-Pro's? Virtually ALL get in with 7 All-Pro's. But Lomas Brown was only an All-Pro ONCE. He went to 7 Pro Bowls, and there are a TON (especially O-Lineman) who do not get in with 7 Pro Bowls. Take last year for example. Look how many players were considered "Pro Bowlers". Pro bowl apperances have become virtually meaningless in the HOF debate, and I believe the recent classes confirm that. How many "Pro Bowls" did Russ Grimm have?
Of course, you would be free to NOMINATE Lomas Brown for addition to the set next January when we have our next vote here on the boards. He would however need a majority of the collectors voting to approve his addition.
IMO, he was a good lineman, but no where near being a HOFer. He's been HOF eligible for 3 years now and hasn't made the top 25 yet. If he ever makes the top 25, i will consider throwing him a vote to add to the set. until then, what reason would I or anyone else have to request his addition? There are MANY O-Lineman who are HOF eligible yet do not make the top 25. If we add Brown, shouldn;t we also add all of the other 10-12 OL who get nominated but don't make the top 25?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason, thanks for the '48 Bowman Pihos, it's a great looking card.
I do have a '48 Bowman Pihos PSA 3 for sale $30.00 shipped. SOLD
I have a scan of it in my showcase, should be the first card.
showcase
<< <i>
<< <i>No doubt this has already been dealt with in past posts, but I'll ask anyway.
Is Lomas Brown really so far from the HOF discussion as not to be included as a modern candidate in the Future HOF set?? How many guys get All Pro seven times and don't get into the hall?
Jason? >>
Yes, he is very far. 7 All-Pro's? Virtually ALL get in with 7 All-Pro's. But Lomas Brown was only an All-Pro ONCE. He went to 7 Pro Bowls, and there are a TON (especially O-Lineman) who do not get in with 7 Pro Bowls. >>
Whoops. I trusted Wikipedia on something without double-checking. And I'm usually the person who ridicules others for doing that.
Never would've asked if I had the fact straight. Thanks for the response, though.
<< <i>It can happen, Jackie Slater had 7 pro-bowls and zero all-pros. >>
There are actually quite a few HOFers with zero All-Pro's. Looking at just players who's careers started after 1960-
-Jackie Smith
-Elvin Bethea
-Roger Stubach
-Jackie Slater (as mentioned)
-Harry Carson
-Rickey Jackson
-John Elway
-Warren Moon
-Troy Aikman
None of these were ever voted first team All-Pro, and of these Jackie Smith had the fewest Pro Bowls, 5.
Of course when speaking of All-Pro selections, I am speaking strictly of FIRST TEAM selections. Those were the players with the most votes, and the AP tends to be the most widely recognized although some others do carry some weight as well at times (PFWA, Sporting News, etc). There is no one thing or one category that guarantees HOF election. It's a subjective process much like grading cards, except that they have a collection of voters who vote and make the selections. All-Pros, Pro Bowls, Super Bowls, Post Season Awards, statistical milestones, etc. They all play a part.
As far as Lomas Brown goes, he was never considered one of the best OT's of all-time, not to mention of even his own era. Really good player? sure absolutely. But stack up the OL who are currently eligible for the HOF, but have not yet been inducted and Brown ends up pretty far down the list. Then you add in the OL who are coming up in the next few years like Roaf, Larry Allen, Ogden, Pace, Walter Jones, etc. and I think you will realize that Brown will never make it. Just too many who were better at his own position. I mean you only get 5 modern candidates from ALL POSITIONS. Cris Carter isn't in. Shannon Sharpe isn't in. Richard Dent, Dermontti Dawson, the list goes on. OL is one of the tougher positions to grade/analyze so yes they do tend to get snubbed more often than the glamour positions that can rack up numbers.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Russ Grimm, G- Elected to HOF 2010
Dermontti Dawson, C- Made top 15 Modern Finalists 2010
Joe Jacoby, T- Has made the top 25 in the past, 2008 I think was the last time
Jim Covert, T
Tony Boselli, T
Steve Wisniewski, G
Mike Kenn, T
Jay Hilgenberg, C
Chris Hinton, G/T
Lomas Brown, T
Jim Lachey, T
Kent Hull, C
Max Montoya, G
Korey Stringer, T
Dawson will eventually get elected. Jacoby and all others below most likely never will.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I truly only brought up Lomas Brown because of that bit of misinformation about the All Pro selections. I wasn't arguing for his inclusion based on rep alone. I mean, I really liked him and Glover in front of Barry Sanders but it doesn't seem like a gross injustice that he is not going to get in.
I can tell you guys that once Dent gets in, there's going to be a huge Chicago-based push for Covert or Hilgenberg to make it. Fans here still believe that O-line was severely under appreciated. They were a super cohesive group and they made a couple of skill players appear better than they actually were, but I don't think I can remember enough about each individual's play to form a HOF opinion there.
That is crazy! I would have lost money in a bet that Elway was never AP 1st team. How can he be AP MVP in 1987 and not make 1st team all-pro?
<< <i>JasP24
That is crazy! I would have lost money in a bet that Elway was never AP 1st team. How can he be AP MVP in 1987 and not make 1st team all-pro? >>
Two Words...Joe..Montana...lol..Elway was 2nd team in 1987. And Jerry Rice was the 1987 Offensive Player of the Year! He had more receiving TDs than Elway had passing TDs.
Keep in mind that was the strike season, so most NFL stars only played in 12 games that year. So there was less to go on than a typical season. I guess the voters just split all the awards up..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jasen
I have listed the most recent VCP sale for each card:
1961 Fleer Don Maynard PSA 10 - $1,042.23
1970 Topps Alan Page PSA 10 - $518.99
1970 Topps O.J. Simpson PSA 9 - $699.00
1973 Topps Jack Youngblood PSA 10 - NO VCP SALES REPORTED - 3 POP
1981 Topps Art Monk PSA 10 - $276.13
1981 Topps Dan Hampton PSA 10 - NO VCP SALES REPORTED - 2 POP
1982 Topps Anthony Munoz PSA 10 - $157.50
1982 Topps Lawrence Taylor PSA 10 - $420.00
1982 Topps Ronnie Lott PSA 10 - $1,104.50
1984 Topps Eric Dickerson PSA 10 - $222.50
If interested, please email an offer to me at madmandreamer@aol.com.
I will also consider offers for cards in my set - #74 MAD's Pro Football Hall of Fame Rookie Players.
I will be able to provide pics upon request.
MAD
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
<< <i>Zero first-team AP's yet he's the all-decade QB for the '90s??? I think that's more support for my opinion that Young, Favre or Aikman should have been the '90s all-decade QB ahead of Elway. Young had the superior numbers and an SB win, Aikman had 3 rings, Favre had one ring in two SB appearances and three (!) MVPs. Elway got two rings but at the tail end of his career thanks in large part to T.Davis. Are they sure they tallied the votes right on that one???
Jasen >>
Honestly, the time the vote was taken played a HUGE part in that vote. It was after the 1999 season, one year prior Elway won his 2nd consecutive Super Bowl and retired, riding off into the sunset. Love Elway, definitely one of the biggest arms and one of the best crunch time QBs to ever play. But many forget that he lost 3 Super Bowls in the 80's, before finally winning the 2 after Terrell Davis came on board. Because of his crunch time heroics/memories, he tends to be a bit over rated at times IMO. Had Marino gotten Davis in his backfield, he would have gotten his Super Bowl ring(s) finally too.
Don't get me wrong, Elway is a top 10 QB of all-time, but I've seen rankings that put him in the top 5, and if you look at the numbers and watch the tape that's just over rating him a tad. I witnessed his entire career and until he won those Super Bowls, he was always considered #3 of his era behind Montana and Marino. And I think he still belongs #3 in that debate.
For the team of the 1990s, Favre should have been first team and Elway second IMO. Three MVPs in the decade? Nough said.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Is it football season yet? >>
Only 123 days until opening night.......um, not that I'm counting or anything....
Jasen
I noticed a few of the bidders had 80% and 100% of their bids to the seller.
Not saying it was shilled or anything......
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Here's what as nice a Matson as you will find in the Large - Thanks Keith
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Who won the 52 Matson 8.5 ?
I noticed a few of the bidders had 80% and 100% of their bids to the seller.
Not saying it was shilled or anything...... >>
Ugly card going for sick money. The corners on it must have been perfect, because it certainly didnt get that 8.5 grade based on its centering.....
Thanks for emailing that auction to me Jay-Z, but Im pretty happy with my centered 8 and $4k in my pocket!
Oh and Dave, Yaks got the rare 75 grade on his, way better than an 8.5.
The 7.5 is noticeably better than the 8.5
my 8 also is better imo.
Worthy of grade or not..it still counts. Lets face it...its ultra scarce on auction.
when was the last psa 8 on auction? years ago. The last I know of was a private sale.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Question, has anyone sent any John Randle Pro Set #835 in for grading and received a less than great grade? I just sent in two pack fresh and they came back 8"s...can't see the dif. with my 9 and it can't be centering on that card right? Anyway, if anyone needs an eight, I got two...yay!!!
Dan, that 7.5 looks great. I'd almost say it's better than my 8. Almost.
I wasn't that shocked at the Matson 8.5 price. Even being low end for the grade, it's just so tough to come by, even in straight 8. It got expensive early, which was a sign of things to come.
In other news, I'm moving back to Hawaii in a couple of months! Three more years in paradise, and back to where I started collecting the HOF RCs. SOOO glad to hear they have DirecTV there now. Last time I was there, I had to wake up at 6 AM on football Sunday's and drive to the Sportsbar to see the games I wanted to see and not the 49ers and Chargers... The bad news is my buying and selling will be turned off for a couple of months. My luck, every card I NEED and have been looking for will come available at below market prices during that time..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Rank the top 5 QB classes of all time. The top 15 nominees:
1950- Tobin Rote, Eddie LeBaron
1956- Bart Starr, Earl Morrall
1957- Sonny Jurgensen, Len Dawson, John Brodie
1962- John Hadl, Roman Gabriel
1965- Joe Namath, Craig Morton
1971- Ken Anderson, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann
1979- Joe Montana, Phil Simms
1983- Dan Marino, John Elway, Jim Kelly
1987- Rich Gannon, Vinny Testeverde
1993- Drew Bledsoe, Mark Brunell, Trent Green
1995- Steve McNair, Kerry Collins
1999- Donovan McNabb, Dante Culpepper
2004- Philip Rivers, Eli Manning , Ben Roethlisberger
2008- Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco
2009- Mark Sanchez, Matt Stafford
Let's see what you think....
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Another question...is it pretty safe to buy cards on this site? Actually its a stupid question seeing that I just sent off 62 bucks. >>
Hey Dan, got your payment last night and the card is already on its way with full insurance and delivery confirmation. I will private message you the tracking number, which you can always find in your paypal account too where you sent payment.
I would say overall this is a much safer place to buy cards, especially as Jason said with fellow HOF collectors here. I have never had a problem with anyone selling or buying from on here.
Jason,
I would vote 83,57,04,79, 71 based mostly on quantity and quality.
Have fun in paradise!
1990 - Jeff George, Andre Ware
1991 - Dan McGwire, Todd Marinovich, Browning Nagle....all taken ahead of Brett Favre
1992 - David Klingler, Tommy Maddox
1994 - Heath Shuler, Trent Dilfer
1999 - (I know you did have this one on your list, but you missed a few key guys) Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown
2002 - David Carr, Joey Harrington
2007 - JaMarcus Russell, Brady Quinn
Jasen
<< <i>Jason, I know you are more old-school, so I won't blame you for missing some of the more recent spectacular draft classes on your list:
1990 - Jeff George, Andre Ware
1991 - Dan McGwire, Todd Marinovich, Browning Nagle....all taken ahead of Brett Favre
1992 - David Klingler, Tommy Maddox
1994 - Heath Shuler, Trent Dilfer
1999 - (I know you did have this one on your list, but you missed a few key guys) Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown
2002 - David Carr, Joey Harrington
2007 - JaMarcus Russell, Brady Quinn
Jasen >>
LOL..If we were going for WORST QB drafts, we'd have 60 nominees just for starters...Definitely the majority...
As far as best go, Dan listed exactly how I see them. What this came from was from a re-draft conversation. Basically, if you could re-draft any draft year, who would the top 10 picks be..It was a pretty fun debate. Guys like Jared Allen who went in like Round 4 going #1 overall in 2004.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Vince, are you thinkin about it?
<< <i>Was doing some research back around the draft and came up with some interesting debates. Been discussing via e-mail and figured i would see if anyone was in the mood here!.
Rank the top 5 QB classes of all time. The top 15 nominees:
1950- Tobin Rote, Eddie LeBaron
1956- Bart Starr, Earl Morrall
1957- Sonny Jurgensen, Len Dawson, John Brodie
1962- John Hadl, Roman Gabriel
1965- Joe Namath, Craig Morton
1971- Ken Anderson, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann
1979- Joe Montana, Phil Simms
1983- Dan Marino, John Elway, Jim Kelly
1987- Rich Gannon, Vinny Testeverde
1993- Drew Bledsoe, Mark Brunell, Trent Green
1995- Steve McNair, Kerry Collins
1999- Donovan McNabb, Dante Culpepper
2004- Philip Rivers, Eli Manning , Ben Roethlisberger
2008- Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco
2009- Mark Sanchez, Matt Stafford
Let's see what you think....
Jason >>
Jason, I'd add KURT WARNER and Jeff Garcia to the 1999 list.
John
edit to add- 1999 was Kurt's "rc' year but he was and undrafted free agent in 1994, and finally signed in the NFL in 1998. My heard hurts. Garcia's story is just as odd.
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
Vince, are you thinkin about it? >>
I'll be there Jim. For the cards and hopefully a round of golf and a ballgame. Anyone else?
<< <i><< Any HOF regulars here goin to Balt. this yr. re. the Natl?
Vince, are you thinkin about it? >>
I'll be there Jim. For the cards and hopefully a round of golf and a ballgame. Anyone else? >>
I'll be there Wed, Thurs & Saturday...taking the train to NYC on Friday for Yankees-Red Sox at the new stadium. We'll all need to swap phone #s ahead of time and pick a time & place to meet up, maybe Thursday or Saturday after the show closes?
Jasen
2004
4 126 KAN Jared Allen DE
1 3 ARI Larry Fitzgerald WR
1 4 NYG Philip Rivers QB
1 1 SDG Eli Manning QB
1 11 PIT Ben Roethlisberger QB
1 24 STL Steven Jackson RB
1 14 CHI Tommie Harris DT
3 64 ARI Darnell Dockett DT
5 154 SDG Michael Turner RB
1 21 NWE Vince Wilfork NT
1983
1 27 MIA Dan Marino HOF QB
1 1 BAL John Elway HOF QB
1 28 WAS Darrell Green HOF DB
1 9 HOU Bruce Matthews HOF G
1 2 RAM Eric Dickerson HOF RB
1 14 BUF Jim Kelly HOF QB
8 203 CHI Richard Dent DE
2 49 SFO Roger Craig RB
12 310 DEN Karl Mecklenburg LB
1 4 DEN Chris Hinton T
1957
1 6 CLE Jim Brown HOF FB
1 8 BAL Jim Parker HOF T
4 43 PHI Sonny Jurgensen HOF QB
1 5 PIT Len Dawson HOF QB
9 109 NYG Don Maynard HOF E
1 1 GNB Paul Hornung HOF HB
5 52 CLE Henry Jordan HOF DT
3 31 PHI Tommy McDonald HOF FL
7 78 CLE Gene Hickerson HOF G
1 3 SFO John Brodie QB
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Any HOF regulars here goin to Balt. this yr. re. the Natl? >>
This will be only the second time I will miss a nat'l since 2002. Not good timing with the new house.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
I think we should add a few guys to these three classes
2004 Class - Missing Matt Schaub
1971 Class - Missing Lynn Dickey and Dan Pastorini
1957 Class - Missing Milt Plum and Jack Kemp
I would add
1998 Class - Peyton Manning and Matt Hasslebeck
1973 Class - Bert Jones, Ron Jaworski, Joe Ferguson, Dan Fouts
1961 Class - Norm Snead, Billy Kilmer, Fran Tarkenton
1949 Class - George Blanda, Norm Van Brocklin, Frank Tripuka, Jim Finks
1948 Class - Bobby Layne, YA Title
1944 Class - Otto Grahm, Bob Waterfield
I would remove the following
1950- Tobin Rote, Eddie LeBaron
1987- Rich Gannon, Vinny Testeverde
1995- Steve McNair, Kerry Collins
1999- Donovan McNabb, Dante Culpepper
2008- Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco (too soon to tell)
2009- Mark Sanchez, Matt Stafford (too soon to tell)
So my classes are listed below in order.
1983- Dan Marino, John Elway, Jim Kelly
1948- Bobby Layne, YA Title
1957- Sonny Jurgensen, Len Dawson, John Brodie, Milt Plum and Jack Kemp
1944- Otto Grahm, Bob Waterfield
1979- Joe Montana, Phil Simms
1961- Norm Snead, Billy Kilmer, Fran Tarkenton
2004- Philip Rivers, Eli Manning , Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Schaub
1998- Peyton Manning and Matt Hasslebeck
1949- George Blanda, Norm Van Brocklin, Frank Tripuka, Jim Finks
1956- Bart Starr, Earl Morrall
1962- John Hadl, Roman Gabriel
1973- Bert Jones, Ron Jaworski, Joe Ferguson, Dan Fouts
1971- Ken Anderson, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann, Lynn Dickey, Dan Pastorini
1965- Joe Namath, Craig Morton
1993- Drew Bledsoe, Mark Brunell, Trent Green
Again, this is all opinion based. But a great way to spend the off season.
<< <i>I'll be there all week. Arriving Monday night and preloading on Tuesday. Would love to meet up with a few more of you. I think I've met 4 so far, so looking to double that in Baltimore. >>
Arriving wed afternoon, leaving Sunday early. Lets grab a beer Scotty, I have a vendor pass so Ill find you at your normal booth. You had suggested a bar in the Soho distrcit named "The Steaming Manhole" or something? How bout we just watch some hockey in the lobby of the hotel instead....
Should be a blast, Im looking forward to it.
<< <i>You had suggested a bar in the Soho distrcit named "The Steaming Manhole" or something? >>
I changed my mind...Count me in!!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Dan
I head home every year for a few weeks. Last year was my first Nat'l. I'll be there this year -- probably from Wed onwards and flying back to Montreal on Sat night or Sun morning. Big party on the Sunday that I can't miss. Looking forward to meeting some of you guys. If beer is involved I'm in.