I'd be interested in your thoughts comparing Floyd Little to HOFer Leroy Kelly.
Kelly played in more games and had more touchdowns. In all other categories, Little's numbers exceed Kelly's, playing in less games for a less-talented team.
I had the same thought about The Express - thinking about it now, the young Floyd Little had a small but important part in the film.
Appearing at the end, the young, highly-recruited Floyd Little was influenced to go to Syracuse after meeting Ernie Davis.
I just thought this was interesting because a lot was made of Ernie Davis getting Floyd Little to go to Syracuse, following Davis and Jim Brown.
It was noted that at the time of his retirement, Floyd Little was the 7th all-time rusher with the other 6 being HOFers.
Have shine box will travel ------------ BOBBY ORR THE BEST THERE WAS! THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE! ------------
<< <i>I wonder if any influence to push Little over the top came as a result of "The Express?" >>
My guess it had more to do with the AFL's 50th Anniversary. They wanted an AFL guy, and Little has had the most support from the senior committee over the past 7 years. Otis Taylor and Johnny Robinson would be the other AFL players who have been closest, but they just selected a Chiefs guy a couple of years ago.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Leroy Kelly vs. Floyd Little..Using strictly the stats.
Leroy Kelly's prime years were 1966-1971 Floyd Little- 1968-1973
Kelly over his best 6 year span= 82 games 1,471 rushes/receptions 7,698 yards from scrimmage 79 TDs
Little over his best 6 year span= 76 games 1,419 rushes/receptions 6,940 yards from scrimmage 46 TDs
Something else to keep in mind, team records over those spans: Cleveland Browns- 54-29-1 Denver Broncos- 31-48-5
Kelly was a little better stat wise, but also played alongside some other HOFers on some really good teams while Little was the only even possible HOFer from any offensive team he ever played for. The stats are pretty comparable and the big difference in TDs shows how much better and how many more opportunities at TDs that Kelly had. Little was also a great return man and really the ONLY bright spot during the early Denver years.
Lastly, Leroy Kelly was a SENIOR CANDIDATE selection in 1994 when elected. Along with Doak Walker and John Henry Johnson, those are the only 3 modern era RBs elected as Senior Candidates. Those 3 are arguable the 3 weakest modern era RB HOFers, so I guess the question for the voters this year will be, does Little belong within that group. Personally, I feel he does, and that he was a better back than Walker or Johnson, and very comparable to Leroy Kelly.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Before there was John Elway in Denver, Floyd Little was “The Franchise” for the Denver Broncos. He brought credibility to a struggling team, despite being a lone weapon on offense for much of his career. If it had not been for Little, there probably would not be football in Denver today. “My signing helped rally the people in Denver around the team," he said. "From there we were able to go out through the city and get a charter to solicit and build a bigger and better stadium, which became Mile High Stadium.” Old time Broncos’ fans will always fondly remember the bow-legged, 5-10, 195-pound running back. (1) Floyd Little Breaks 1000 Yards
During the 1971 NFL season, Floyd Little of the Denver Broncos made history, rushing for 1000 yards in a season. “It's a different game now,” Little said. “It's difficult to compare to my era. It used to be a big deal to gain 1,000 yards. When I first went over 1,000, I was only the 13th player in NFL history. We had a banquet and everything.” For the season he carried the ball 284 times for 1133 yards and six touchdowns. He also added 26 catches for another 255 yards. Floyd Little Sets Single Game Broncos Rushing Mark
On October 19, 1969 Floyd Little had a career game against the Cincinnati Bengals. On that day he carried the ball 29 times for 166 yards. In the second quarter, he dashed 47 yards for his only touchdown. His Denver Broncos’ record day of 166 yards has since been broken. (2) Floyd Little’s Career
Running back Floyd Little played his last home game for the Broncos the same way he played his first one — with a touch of class. Little scored two touchdowns, leading Denver to a 25-10 win over the Philadelphia Eagles. Little, rushed 19 times for 56 yards and caught five passes for 94 yards. "This was very emotional for me," said Little, the first No. 1 draft choice ever signed by the Broncos.
On the first play from scrimmage after the kick with the game tied at 10, Little hauled in the screen pass from Steve Ramsey and raced down the sideline for the score. "I knew it was going to go before we even lined up," said Little. "It's one of my favorite plays; we hadn't run it all day. They were over-committing and when I mentioned it in the huddle you should have seen the faces of our linemen. They all lit up." Denver Broncos coach John Ralston said, "We had a lot of guys look good today, but let's keep our discussions on what is important this day —Floyd. There were guys who looked good but this was Floyd's day and everybody knew it. Everybody gave that little extra to help Floyd enjoy it as much as he could." (4)
When Floyd Little retired from the NFL, he was the Denver Broncos’ all-time leading rusher and was the 7th leading runner in NFL history. He finished his career with 1641 carries for 6323 yards, caught 215 passes for another 2418 yards and scored 54 career touchdowns. When you add in his return yardage, Little amassed 12,157 career yards, averaging 104 yards per game played. Should Floyd Little Be In the Hall of Fame?
When Floyd Little retired from the NFL, he was the 7th all-time leading rusher. The six guys ahead of him at that time are all in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Granted he had only one 1000-yard season, but that came when running for 1000 yards meant something and he was only the 13th player to ever achieve that. The sports writers who vote for players to receive enshrinement should ask the players he faced and not look at that fact that he played on a bad team. Little played on notoriously bad Broncos teams that went 47-73-6 during his career. "The losing was extremely difficult," Little said. "But I loved the game. I loved all the facets of playing running back: rushing, receiving, returning punts and kickoffs. I didn't have to do all those things, but I thought I could help the team." (1)
Jack Ham, a Hall of Fame linebacker from the Pittsburgh Steelers dynasty, remembered Little as the most complete back of his era. “Floyd Little deserves to be in the Hall of Fame,” Ham said, “He was an amazing player. Not only was he a gifted runner and receiver, but incredibly smart. You couldn't cheat one way or the other with him, because he would beat you every time. He was the consummate professional. I looked forward to the Pro Bowl, so I could finally be on his team.” (1)
Hall of Fame linebacker Willie Lanier, who played for Kansas City, agreed with Ham's assessment: “Floyd was the kind of performer where you had to be at your best. When playing against most running backs, you had to determine how much error you could be off and still make the play. With Floyd, you had to be right the first time. You couldn't be off or he'd make you pay.” (1)
This is what the greatest running back in NFL history Jim Brown had to say. “I've said for years that Floyd deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. There's no question in my mind that he's one of the game's greatest players.” (3)
To me, Floyd Little’s career is even more impressive when you understand that defenses keyed on him every week and he still produced at a high level. I too think Floyd Little belongs in the Pro Football Hall of Fame and hope the sports writers will finally come to their senses. At least the Denver Broncos have made it known how special Floyd Little was. They retired his jersey number, 44, and Little was added to the Denver Broncos Ring of Fame.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I was sending out cards to be autographed and was reading the stats of Pete Johnson (RB for the Bengals and Dolphins back in the 70's and 80's). He had nearly 7000 total rushing/receiving yards and scored 82 TD's. That seems like an enormous number of TD's for a player that is practically unknown.
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
I agree, he has pretty good stats for a player you would not expect them from. Its even more impressive considering he only played 8 years and was a full back.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Being only a 2 hour drive to syracuse......they (little) are considered local heroes. I can remember when I was a little kid little was at a local fair. Maybe 20 of us sat around for 2 hours and talked with him. Very informal. I can remember him being a fantastic guy. One thing I remember him saying was at the time he was an nfl runnning back the average life expectancy of his position was 7 years. RB's of today have so much more for them to keep going. Replace #44 with a target and you have little's career. A marked man. No help ....defensive strategy....follow #44. Offensive strategy...give ball to #44.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Its watering down the HOF to be honest. I had no idea his numbers compared with others were that pale. Oh well >>
agreed. but on a side not I am of the firm belief that Sam Mills and Rickey Jackson should both be in. Even though Mills untimely death hurts him like it did to Derrick Thomas (who should have been a hands down 1st ballot selection) Jackson is hurt by being a bum off the field. He was one of the most dominant linebackers of his era, He and Mills anchored the corps that NFL Network named the best Linebacking corp in history, and he even tacked a Super Bowl win as a contributor in SF. He was much better than Andre Tippet, he just does not have a strong enough advocate to get him over the hump.
<< <i>Don't let the stats mislead you on Floyd Little...You can't look at stats from that era and compare them to RBs of today. From 1968-1973, here are the top 5 rushers, in yards, from that 6 year period:
1- Floyd Little 5,185 2- OJ Simpson 5,181 3- Larry Csonka 5,151 4- Larry Brown 5,037 5- Leroy Kelly 4,777
The knock on Little has always been, was he great enough long enough. Was that 6 year period enough to warrant inclusion in the HOF? He also shouldn't be punished because he played for terrible Bronco teams.
Jason >>
Hey Jason, Stats can be used in any manner to make one player appear more productive or better than another.
What's not fair in the above comparison is that OJ was winning the Heisman Trophy in 1968 and not even in pro football yet. Larry Brown was a senior at Kansas and not in the pro's yet either. Csonka was basically splitting carries in a time share with Kiick and Mercury Morris, so he didn't get as many carries as Little.
Floyd Little was was the main guy in Denver, the featured back if you will, and did the bulk of the running. With that in mind.......
If you compare (5 years) 1969 to '73 in rushing, which were Little's best years in football, Little falls to 4th among this group in rushing yardage and average per carry.
In five of Little's nine years he averaged under 4.0 yards a carry, and two years he was right at 4.0. So only two years he averaged over 4.0 a carry which is about the NFL average rushing the ball. Hardly HOF material.
I've never liked the Leroy Kelly to Floyd Little comparison either. Kelly wins it hands down.
Little scored 54 TD's in 9 years. He was a starter eight year.
Kelly scored 90 TD's in 10 seasons. He was a starter eight years.
When you further compare their careers, they are about a wash as far as returning kicks and punts and general yards from scrimmage. Both guys were very good kick returners. Little lead the AFL once in punt returns, Kelly lead the NFL once and the AFC conference once.
Where Kelly really beats down Little in a comparison is Kelly was first team all-NFL three years and second team twice. Little was all-NFL once in 1971.
Kelly was the NFL's player of the year once. Little has no MVP's.
Kelly was named to the NFL's all decade team of the 1960's. Considering he was the replacement running back for the game's greatest player in Jim Brown, that's quite an accomplishment.
If you take Kelly's best three years 1966, '67 or '68, any one of those years is better than Little's best year which is 1971.
I just don't think Little compares that favorably to Kelly. He's clearly a notch below.
Again, maybe a HOF'er, but putting him in just because the Denver franchise may have been slighted with the lack of players being voted into the HOF in the past doesn't cut it for me.
Denver as a franchise was Football's worst from 1960 to around 1976. That's why there's not more Broncos in the HOF from that era. They stunk.
DE Rich Jackson deserves to be in the Hall along with MLB Randy Gradishier before Little, imho.
I agree, stats do not and never do tell the whole story. When most look at Little's career stats, they don't think he is HOF worthy, but for a rb to have the most rushing yards in pro football over a 6 year span, I'm sorry he is at least worthy of consideration.
I also agree, Kelly is a notch above, but to me is a very small notch in style and substance. I assume the voters tend to agree. As Kelly was never elected as a modern candidate, but eventually got in via senior committee. And now Little has his shot.
I'm not an advocate for Floyd Little going into the HOF. You can look back through every page in this thread and never once will you have seen me singing his praises that he should be a senior selection. But IMO, he certainly warrants a vote. He's been among the final 15-17 Senior candidates every year since 2004 with the exception of 2005. There are other candidates who have been among those final 17 EVERY year since 2004. There names are Tommy Nobis and Dave Robinson, and to me are more deserving than Little. But Little isn't a bad choice at all. Not in the way that Marshall Goldberg and Emmitt Thomas were out of left field longshot choices.
Is Little HOF caliber? He's no lock that's for sure. But he is worthy of debate and i think he's got a 50/50 shot.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
There was some furious channel-flipping going on around my household yesterday with the Phillies / Braves game and the Bears / Broncos "Cutler return" preseason game kicking off at the same time. I found it humorous when, during the pregame chat, Al Michaels made a remark relating to Jay Cutler that "The Bears have been seeking a franchise quarterback ever since they had Sid Luckman."
I'm sure your being a Jimmy Buffett fan and also a Land Shark Beer drinker -- you were proabbly seeing aqua and orange in honor of one of the latest minority owners of the Dolphins performing.
I've seen Jimmy Buffett more than a few times and it is always a party atmosphere.
Have shine box will travel ------------ BOBBY ORR THE BEST THERE WAS! THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE! ------------
Looking at some of Floyd Little's contemporaries, one must pause to consider the linemen that most of the others had clearing holes for them. Who the hell did Floyd Little have as a supporting cast? Yet, he managed to keep up or exceed his fellow running backs of the era. He didn't have the likes of DeLamiellure, McKenzie, Larry Little, Langer, Kuechenberg, Hickerson, or Hauss clearing holes for him. But he managed to find the holes.
Was he the best back of his era? Not at all, but he was at the top of the class and often overlooked. On a better team with a better line, not only would his yardage numbers be better, but his TD's would've increased substantially. I wish him luck, but I think his chances are less than 50/50...
You could ask that question about everyone that ever played in the NFL " what if " and its actually fun to think about what great players could have done if they played with a great offense line. What if Billy Sims , Williams Andrew , Freeman McNeil , Joe Delaney, James Brooks etc etc , played behind 90's cowboys line ?
I think Billy Sims is one of the best RB's I've ever seen, but I wouldn't put him in the HOF .
I love the debate, but in the end Floyd got dealt a raw deal and played with a sucky team and it might have hurt his chance, he can join the other 99% of the NFL players out there who are great but are not HOFers.
Here's a great " what if" If Tommy Nobis played on a great team instead of a developing Falcons team do you really think he would be waiting for the HOF call ? What if he played for some of those early Cowboys, Raiders or Steeler teams . My opion is that he would be thought of , the way we think of players like Nitschke, Lambert or Butkus.
So I would be interested in hearing what everyone thinks is the best player not in the HOF, that got dealt an extremely raw deal because of the sorry team he was drafted by ?
Excellent points Dan. Conversely, it's interesting to think about what players are in the HOF because of the team they played for. If Lynn Swann played for a crappy team that never made the playoffs, he would never have made the HOF.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>You could ask that question about everyone that ever played in the NFL " what if " and its actually fun to think about what great players could have done if they played with a great offense line. What if Billy Sims , Williams Andrew , Freeman McNeil , Joe Delaney, James Brooks etc etc , played behind 90's cowboys line ?
I think Billy Sims is one of the best RB's I've ever seen, but I wouldn't put him in the HOF .
I love the debate, but in the end Floyd got dealt a raw deal and played with a sucky team and it might have hurt his chance, he can join the other 99% of the NFL players out there who are great but are not HOFers.
Here's a great " what if" If Tommy Nobis played on a great team instead of a developing Falcons team do you really think he would be waiting for the HOF call ? What if he played for some of those early Cowboys, Raiders or Steeler teams . My opion is that he would be thought of , the way we think of players like Nitschke, Lambert or Butkus.
So I would be interested in hearing what everyone thinks is the best player not in the HOF, that got dealt an extremely raw deal because of the sorry team he was drafted by ? >>
I'd suggest Corey Dillon and Herschel Walker. Dillon played on some terrible Bengal's teams while Walker wasted time in the USFL. In my opinion Walker could of been a HOF'er had he went to the NFL sooner.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
When you look at the greatest RBs of all time Walter Payton played on some horrible teams with terrible O-lines where he had a target on his back because he was the only weapon on the team. While Emmit Smith enjoed playing beside Aikman and Irvin, Payton had Avellini and Scott from '75 up till '83. What if those two traded places.
<< <i>When you look at the greatest RBs of all time Walter Payton played on some horrible teams with terrible O-lines where he had a target on his back because he was the only weapon on the team. While Emmit Smith enjoed playing beside Aikman and Irvin, Payton had Avellini and Scott from '75 up till '83. What if those two traded places. >>
Payton had a pretty good line from 83-87 while Smith had one from 91-95. The line started to go down hill after the their last Super Bowl victory as players aged, left, or retired. Payton had a pretty good group to run behind late in his career, a time when RB's need the most help from their OL. Jim Brown probably benefited the most from a dominant OL b/c he played behind multiple HOF'ers and All Pro's.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>When you look at the greatest RBs of all time Walter Payton played on some horrible teams with terrible O-lines where he had a target on his back because he was the only weapon on the team. While Emmit Smith enjoed playing beside Aikman and Irvin, Payton had Avellini and Scott from '75 up till '83. What if those two traded places. >>
Payton had a pretty good line from 83-87 while Smith had one from 91-95. The line started to go down hill after the their last Super Bowl victory as players aged, left, or retired. Payton had a pretty good group to run behind late in his career, a time when RB's need the most help from their OL. Jim Brown probably benefited the most from a dominant OL b/c he played behind multiple HOF'ers and All Pro's. >>
Ahhh, the old chicken and the egg. Could it be that Jim Brown had a bunch of Pro Bowl/All-Pro linemen b/c they got noticed due to how dominant he was? Look at the Pro Bowl and All-Pro rosters over the years. For the most part, if the team had either a great running game or a great passing game, those OL had a better shot at being sleected than say an OL playing on a team with a terrible QB and weak RBs. How do you decide who made who better? Chicken and the egg....
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Payton was better than all of them, I have no bias >>
Same here w/ Emmitt.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Hey guys. I just had a sub pop. Pretty happy with except for the Charlie Sander RC. I have sent it in 3 times now. Beautiful card but keeps coming back "minimun size rqmt" I am giving up on it and just going to put it in my raw collection. Some of the cards were for my all time bears set, some for future hofers, and some for other misc sets.
1 N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1971 TOPPS 210 CHARLIE SANDERS 2 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1974 TOPPS 474 WALLY CHAMBERS 3 MINT 9 1975 TOPPS 360 LAWRENCE McCUTCHEON 4 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1976 TOPPS 257 RANDY GRADISHAR 5 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1977 TOPPS 146 HARRY CARSON 6 EXCELLENT 5 1978 TOPPS 217 FRED DEAN 7 MINT 9 1980 TOPPS 170 OTTIS ANDERSON ALL-PRO 8 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1980 TOPPS 195 LESTER HAYES 9 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1980 TOPPS 225 PHIL SIMMS 10 NEAR MINT 7 1981 TOPPS 342 MARK GASTINEAU 11 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1981 TOPPS 422 DWIGHT CLARK 12 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1983 TOPPS 41 OTIS WILSON 13 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1983 TOPPS 384 KENNY EASLEY 14 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1985 TOPPS 23 TODD BELL ALL PRO 15 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1985 TOPPS 32 STEVE MCMICHAEL 16 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1986 TOPPS 17 JAY HILGENBERG 17 NEAR MINT 7 1986 TOPPS 25 WILBER MARSHALL 18 NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1986 TOPPS 27 DAVE DUERSON 19 NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1986 TOPPS 248 LOMAS BROWN 20 MINT 9 1988 TOPPS 71 NEAL ANDERSON 21 MINT 9 1989 PRO SET 548 CARNELL LAKE 22 GEM MINT 10 1989 SCORE 167 CHRIS SPIELMAN 23 MINT 9 1989 SCORE 247 DONNELL WOOLFORD 24 MINT 9 1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE 30 MARK CARRIER 25 MINT 9 1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE 39 CORTEZ KENNEDY 26 MINT 9 1990 FLEER UPDATE U-81 RICHMOND WEBB 27 MINT 9 1990 SCORE 431 SHAUN GAYLE 28 MINT 9 1994 PLAYOFF 300 LARRY ALLEN 29 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1995 SP 3 STEVE McNAIR FOIL 30 MINT 9 1996 BOWMAN'S BEST 162 TEDY BRUSCHI 31 MINT 9 1999 PACIFIC 343 K.WARNER/T.HORNE 32 GEM MINT 10 2000 E-X 140 BRIAN URLACHER 33 GEM MINT 10 2000 TOPPS CHROME 253 BRIAN URLACHER 34 GEM MINT 10 2003 TOPPS CHROME 203 ANQUAN BOLDIN 35 MINT 9 2004 TOPPS CHROME 176 DeANGELO HALL 36 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 2004 TOPPS CHROME 227 CHRIS COOLEY 37 GEM MINT 10 2006 TOPPS CHROME 244 SANTONIO HOLMES 38 GEM MINT 10 2006 TOPPS CHROME 252 DEVIN HESTER 39 GEM MINT 10 2008 TOPPS CHROME TC191 MATT FORTE 40 MINT 9 2008 TOPPS CHROME TC193 DOMINIQUE RODGERS-CROMARTIE
Had a gander at the list of 17 Senior Semi-finalists today. I can not post the list, HOF committee is supposedly cracking down on public releases and I don;t want to get anyone in trouble.
I can say there was no one on the list who isn't already on the Future HOF Senior set.
One noticable absence from the 17 and the reason I am posting...Al Wistert
I was told, until he is recognized by the Eagles themselves and inducted into the teams Honor Roll, he's never making the HOF. So for those who were pushing for his election, my advice would be to press the Eagles organization and see if you can help make that happen first.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Why is there a big secret with the Sr. semi-Finalists? They make the Modern cutdown public, why not the Sr's? Just curious
Dave >>
I asked the same question. Was told it is to cut down on the campaigning of players to the senior committee. Sounds weak to me, but this year they went so far as to make people sign a confidentiality agreement. I don't get it either.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I still don't think Floyd Little is a HOF, but I was on pro football reference looking over some stats and came a across a list of the 100 RB's and what the ranking of the Lines that they played behind. Here's the top 10 RB's with the Best Offensive lines OL 1735 55.9 Calvin Hill 4155 55.3 Jim Taylor 7971 54.9 Jim Brown 2074 52.8 Larry Csonka 1678 51.6 Mark van Eeghen 3443 50.4 Chuck Foreman 2465 48.5 Lenny Moore 4491 48.2 Priest Holmes 3261 47.8 Roger Craig 2025 46.2 James Brooks 3666 46.0 Lydell Mitchell 1504 45.9 Rick Casares 7057 45.4 Emmitt Smith 2295 45.1 Robert Smith 3964 44.8 Terrell Davis 3421 44.8 Leroy Kelly 1575 44.4 Pete Johnson 7445 44.1 Marshall Faulk 1723 44.0 Earnest Byner 5083 43.8 Thurman Thomas
Bottom 20 2668 33.6 Stephen Davis 1861 33.5 Thomas Jones 1691 33.0 Don Perkins 2731 32.8 Ricky Williams 2289 32.4 Floyd Little 3542 31.9 Ottis Anderson 2118 31.8 Deuce McAllister 2669 31.7 Gale Sayers 2328 31.7 Chris Warren 2609 31.5 Billy Sims 7126 31.2 Walter Payton 1551 30.6 John L. Williams 2221 30.4 Warrick Dunn 7105 30.2 LaDainian Tomlinson 1845 29.1 Paul Lowe 1705 27.7 Cookie Gilchrist 1700 25.2 Frank Gore 1986 25.0 James Wilder 2624 23.4 Abner Haynes 1802 -- Cliff Battles
Most rushing yards in the AFL/NFL over a 6 year span makes a good case as well...Are there any other RBs who had the most yards over a 6 year period before Floyd Little NOT already in the HOF? And he did it behind one of the worst lines in NFL history and saved the Denver franchise from either going under or moving...I'd say he is a very worthy senior selection, and I hope his case is presented well to give him a fair shot.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Is anyone interested in trading some cards? Since my wife and I are in the process of building a new house, I am short on cash. However, I am still interesting in getting some new upgrades. I am willing to trade any of the 60 something cards that I am looking for an upgrade (See my set), for some higher graded cards. I would only want to "trade up". ( I dont want to trade my PSA 4 Bednarik for a bunch of 1970's and 80's upgrades.) The only card I will not trade is my nagurski (unless it involves a higher grade Nagurski for me)
I would however, trade several cards of mine for a higher grade RC (Even if it causes me to drop below 100%) All cards would be traded based on VCP averages. For Example, If you have a nicely centered PSA 7 Johnny Unitas RC, ($505), I would trade you for my PSA 5 Unitas ($210), PSA 6 Blanda ($98), PSA 5 Hornung ($126), and PSA 7 Griese ($76)
1950 Bowman Tom Fears PSA 9 1950 Bowman Joe Perry PSA 9 1955 Bowman Mike McCormack PSA 9 1955 Bowman Frank Gatski PSA 9 1964 Topps Bobby Bell PSA 9 1965 Philadelphia Paul Krause PSA 9 1969 Topps Larry Csonka PSA 9 1972 Topps Emmitt Thomas PSA 9 1974 Topps Joe DeLamielleure PSA 9 1989 Score Rod Woodson PSA 10 1989 Score Thurman Thomas PSA 10
Please email offers (using VCP) to madmandreamer@aol.com.
Payment by paypal.
Pics are available on these cards.
I will be adding cards that are for sale but don't have pics at this time.
Thank you.
Marc aka MAD
Have shine box will travel ------------ BOBBY ORR THE BEST THERE WAS! THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE! ------------
A quick count shows that there are 13 PSA collectors and 0 SGC collectors that have the Football HOF Rookies at 90% completion or more. That's rather exclusive company. Heck, I don't even own half of them yet.
I'm always looking for tips and resources from some of the more experienced collectors at how to best fill out my set. One outlet that I have found to be a terrific source for some of my better cards in this set is Mint State, Inc. at www.mintstateinc.com. I can hardly understand how some of those cards have stayed on their website for as long as they have, so I'm taking down a number of them. Excellent service there too.
Now I'm sure that no one else in America has noticed this and someone needs to state the obvious here - the 2009 NFL season kicks off in about an hour!
Weinhold, was looking at your set and saw that you have a PSA 9 Jim Brown rookie. WOW. Where'd you land that beauty?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>A quick count shows that there are 13 PSA collectors and 0 SGC collectors that have the Football HOF Rookies at 90% completion or more. That's rather exclusive company. Heck, I don't even own half of them yet. >>
Keith, you definitly have quality over quantity, it's only a matter of time before you are with the top few.
Thanks for the compliments and the help with set building resources here, and through e-mails and PMs. What a supportive group.
If a player is a standout and deserving Hall Of Famer, I'm more likely to persue that player's vintage card in a very high grade. I'm one whom feels that all major pro sports Hall Of Fames have been watered down with a lot of "If he's in, then he should be in too" voter sentiment (see my 8/13/09 post on this thread). I'm probably in the minority here, but would enjoy it even more if this set consist of 70-90 cards because there would be only that many HOF RC cards. Having an average of two annual inductees rather than up to six would be a better number, and keep Hall Of Fames more exclusive and special.
Consequently, that's why I focus on pouring disproportionately higher resources into this set's transcendent, game-changing players like Jim Brown, Chuck Bednarik, Don Hutson, Otto Graham, Red Grange, and Lawrence Taylor. Nonetheless, this is still a fantastic set to collect!
I acquired the 1958 Jim Brown RC PSA 9 in April '09 from...where else? Mint State, Inc.
Sporting News' annual ranking of the NFL's top 100 players. As voted by the blue-ribbon voting panel of 106 experts we assembled. It included 27 Hall of Famers and past and present Pro Bowlers, executives and coaches.
SN's TOP 100
1. Peyton Manning, QB, Colts 2. Tom Brady, QB, Patriots 3. Adrian Peterson, RB, Vikings 4. Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Cardinals 5. LaDainian Tomlinson, RB, Chargers 6. Albert Haynesworth, DT, Redskins 7. Ed Reed, S, Ravens 8. Randy Moss, WR, Patriots 9. Troy Polamalu, S, Steelers 10. Tony Gonzalez, TE, Falcons 11. Ray Lewis, ILB, Ravens 12. Ben Roethlisberger, QB, Steelers 13. Dwight Freeney, DE, Colts 14. Steve Hutchinson, G, Vikings 15. DeMarcus Ware, OLB, Cowboys 16. Julius Peppers, DE, Panthers 17. Brian Westbrook, RB, Eagles 18. Drew Brees, QB, Saints 19. James Harrison, OLB, Steelers 20. Nnamdi Asomugha, CB, Raiders 21. Jared Allen, DE, Vikings 22. Donovan McNabb, QB, Eagles 23. Andre Johnson, WR, Texans 24. Steve Smith, WR, Panthers 25. Kurt Warner, QB, Cardinals 26. Champ Bailey, CB, Broncos 27. Shawne Merriman, OLB, Chargers 28. Osi Umenyiora, DE, Giants 29. Walter Jones, OT, Seahawks 30. Kevin Williams, DT, Vikings 31. Anquan Boldin, WR, Cardinals 32. Antonio Gates, TE, Chargers 33. Terrell Owens, WR, Bills 34. Alan Faneca, G, Jets 35. Patrick Willis, ILB, 49ers 36. Mario Williams, DE, Texans 37. Jeff Saturday, C, Colts 38. Jason Witten, TE, Cowboys 39. Brian Dawkins, S, Broncos 40. Matt Birk, C, Ravens 41. Joe Thomas, OT, Browns 42. Michael Turner, RB, Falcons 43. Clinton Portis, RB, Redskins 44. Bob Sanders, S, Colts 45. Terrell Suggs, OLB, Ravens 46. Justin Tuck, DE, Giants 47. Pat Williams, DT, Vikings 48. Joey Porter, OLB, Dolphins 49. Reggie Wayne, WR, Colts 50. Eli Manning, QB, Giants 51. Brett Favre, QB, Vikings 52. Asante Samuel, CB, Eagles 53. Chris Snee, G, Giants 54. Philip Rivers, QB, Chargers 55. Jordan Gross, OT, Panthers 56. Charles Woodson, CB, Packers 57. Lance Briggs, OLB, Bears 58. Tommie Harris, DT, Bears 59. Antonio Cromartie, CB, Chargers 60. Jammal Brown, OT, Saints 61. Brian Urlacher, MLB, Bears 62. Matt Light, OT, Patriots 63. Matt Ryan, QB, Falcons 64. James Farrior, ILB, Steelers 65. Vince Wilfork, NT, Patriots 66. Adrian Wilson, S, Cardinals 67. Lofa Tatupu, MLB, Seahawks 68. Jay Cutler, QB, Bears 69. Kris Jenkins, NT, Jets 70. Chris Johnson, RB, Titans 71. Shaun Rogers, NT, Browns 72. Julian Peterson, OLB, Lions 73. Kyle Vanden Bosch, DE, Titans 74. Trent Cole, DE, Eagles 75. Darnell Dockett, DT, Cardinals 76. Antoine Winfield, CB, Vikings 77. Willie Parker, RB, Steelers 78. Brandon Marshall, WR, Broncos 79. Leonard Davis, G, Cowboys 80. Aaron Kampman, OLB, Packers 81. Jon Beason, MLB, Panthers 82. Calvin Johnson, WR, Lions 83. Kris Dielman, G, Chargers 84. Andre Gurode, C, Cowboys 85. Jay Ratliff, NT, Cowboys 86. DeMeco Ryans, MLB, Texans 87. Roddy White, WR, Falcons 88. Michael Vick, QB, Eagles 89. Michael Roos, OT, Titans 90. Cortland Finnegan, CB, Titans 91. Ryan Clady, OT, Broncos 92. Haloti Ngata, NT, Ravens 93. John Abraham, DE, Falcons 94. Casey Hampton, NT, Steelers 95. Logan Mankins, G, Patriots 96. Steven Jackson, RB, Rams 97. Richard Seymour, DE, Raiders 98. Darrelle Revis, CB, Jets 99. LaMarr Woodley, OLB, Steelers 100. Dallas Clark, TE, Colts
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
It was me in small part but it isn't any longer. I have bid and remained captive suitor for a while but have dropped out of late. At last check, adding in the 17.5% Buyer's Premium, the high bid is at $40,500+. I'm out of it partly because I made a semi-large football card buy over the weekend, and have some things happening in other sports. This subject 1948 Leaf Sid Luckman PSA 8 is worth it though. It appears likely that it is the finest, most desirable Sid Luckman card in existence and should have great desirability going forward.
Goodwin & Co. has presented this Luckman and other cards so well in their catalog, devoting a full page to many cards, accompanied with essayish prose replete with fun adjective and anecdote.
Thanks for origination and your ongoing set input, Dave. I appreciate how you add scans of all your cards to the Registry and try to keep this Message Board thread on-topic: the cards and collector sets that make up this Registry.
I agree I think Goodwin did a great job with their current auction.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Another has asked more about the 1958 Topps Jim Brown card, graded PSA 9. I wanted to start with one landmark card in my set. It was either this or a 1935 Nagurski PSA / SGC 7 or 8 at the top of my list. I hadn't seen any Nagurskis for sale. It mattered little since I think the Jim Brown is every bit as good of an investment card, and to many "worth" more than a Nagurski 7, less than a Nagurski 8.
Speaking of Jim Brown, the ESPN Radio guys among other media sure have brought up his name a lot lately in comparing that unforgettable Adrian Peterson run the other day. Sports Collectors Daily ran an article about the Top 10 1950s Football Cards where they lauded the deal that a fellow member of this Registry Set realized earlier this year on a high grade 1958 Topps Jim Brown rookie.
Near the beginning of October, a column that I have written highlighting a favorite card of this set will appear in Mike Denero's Vintage Sportscards newsletter. I'll share it here then. It was fun to write and I'll be authoring more football than baseball card columns for publication during football season.
Finally, does anyone know how I've derived these rankings based on our set? Think about it a little before you check. #1: 1955 Topps All-American Ace Parker #2: 1948 Leaf Steve Van Buren #3: 1948 Leaf Bill Dudley The answer is at this cool site.
Three of the top six guys are Eagles. So am I being partisan is stating "Long Live The Eagles"(literally)? Just having fun here -Keith
Looks like our set finally hit 100 sets......Not sure if it really counts since several have more than one set listed......Anyway, I wonder how many sets there are on the registry with 100 + sets?
Comments
Kelly played in more games and had more touchdowns. In all other categories, Little's numbers exceed Kelly's, playing in less games for a less-talented team.
I had the same thought about The Express - thinking about it now, the young Floyd Little had a small but important part in the film.
Appearing at the end, the young, highly-recruited Floyd Little was influenced to go to Syracuse after meeting Ernie Davis.
I just thought this was interesting because a lot was made of Ernie Davis getting Floyd Little to go to Syracuse, following Davis and Jim Brown.
It was noted that at the time of his retirement, Floyd Little was the 7th all-time rusher with the other 6 being HOFers.
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BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
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<< <i>I wonder if any influence to push Little over the top came as a result of "The Express?" >>
My guess it had more to do with the AFL's 50th Anniversary. They wanted an AFL guy, and Little has had the most support from the senior committee over the past 7 years. Otis Taylor and Johnny Robinson would be the other AFL players who have been closest, but they just selected a Chiefs guy a couple of years ago.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Leroy Kelly's prime years were 1966-1971
Floyd Little- 1968-1973
Kelly over his best 6 year span=
82 games
1,471 rushes/receptions
7,698 yards from scrimmage
79 TDs
Little over his best 6 year span=
76 games
1,419 rushes/receptions
6,940 yards from scrimmage
46 TDs
Something else to keep in mind, team records over those spans:
Cleveland Browns- 54-29-1
Denver Broncos- 31-48-5
Kelly was a little better stat wise, but also played alongside some other HOFers on some really good teams while Little was the only even possible HOFer from any offensive team he ever played for. The stats are pretty comparable and the big difference in TDs shows how much better and how many more opportunities at TDs that Kelly had. Little was also a great return man and really the ONLY bright spot during the early Denver years.
Lastly, Leroy Kelly was a SENIOR CANDIDATE selection in 1994 when elected. Along with Doak Walker and John Henry Johnson, those are the only 3 modern era RBs elected as Senior Candidates. Those 3 are arguable the 3 weakest modern era RB HOFers, so I guess the question for the voters this year will be, does Little belong within that group. Personally, I feel he does, and that he was a better back than Walker or Johnson, and very comparable to Leroy Kelly.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Floyd Little “The Franchise”
Before there was John Elway in Denver, Floyd Little was “The Franchise” for the Denver Broncos. He brought credibility to a struggling team, despite being a lone weapon on offense for much of his career. If it had not been for Little, there probably would not be football in Denver today. “My signing helped rally the people in Denver around the team," he said. "From there we were able to go out through the city and get a charter to solicit and build a bigger and better stadium, which became Mile High Stadium.” Old time Broncos’ fans will always fondly remember the bow-legged, 5-10, 195-pound running back. (1)
Floyd Little Breaks 1000 Yards
During the 1971 NFL season, Floyd Little of the Denver Broncos made history, rushing for 1000 yards in a season. “It's a different game now,” Little said. “It's difficult to compare to my era. It used to be a big deal to gain 1,000 yards. When I first went over 1,000, I was only the 13th player in NFL history. We had a banquet and everything.” For the season he carried the ball 284 times for 1133 yards and six touchdowns. He also added 26 catches for another 255 yards.
Floyd Little Sets Single Game Broncos Rushing Mark
On October 19, 1969 Floyd Little had a career game against the Cincinnati Bengals. On that day he carried the ball 29 times for 166 yards. In the second quarter, he dashed 47 yards for his only touchdown. His Denver Broncos’ record day of 166 yards has since been broken. (2)
Floyd Little’s Career
Running back Floyd Little played his last home game for the Broncos the same way he played his first one — with a touch of class. Little scored two touchdowns, leading Denver to a 25-10 win over the Philadelphia Eagles. Little, rushed 19 times for 56 yards and caught five passes for 94 yards. "This was very emotional for me," said Little, the first No. 1 draft choice ever signed by the Broncos.
On the first play from scrimmage after the kick with the game tied at 10, Little hauled in the screen pass from Steve Ramsey and raced down the sideline for the score. "I knew it was going to go before we even lined up," said Little. "It's one of my favorite plays; we hadn't run it all day. They were over-committing and when I mentioned it in the huddle you should have seen the faces of our linemen. They all lit up." Denver Broncos coach John Ralston said, "We had a lot of guys look good today, but let's keep our discussions on what is important this day —Floyd. There were guys who looked good but this was Floyd's day and everybody knew it. Everybody gave that little extra to help Floyd enjoy it as much as he could." (4)
When Floyd Little retired from the NFL, he was the Denver Broncos’ all-time leading rusher and was the 7th leading runner in NFL history. He finished his career with 1641 carries for 6323 yards, caught 215 passes for another 2418 yards and scored 54 career touchdowns. When you add in his return yardage, Little amassed 12,157 career yards, averaging 104 yards per game played.
Should Floyd Little Be In the Hall of Fame?
When Floyd Little retired from the NFL, he was the 7th all-time leading rusher. The six guys ahead of him at that time are all in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Granted he had only one 1000-yard season, but that came when running for 1000 yards meant something and he was only the 13th player to ever achieve that. The sports writers who vote for players to receive enshrinement should ask the players he faced and not look at that fact that he played on a bad team.
Little played on notoriously bad Broncos teams that went 47-73-6 during his career. "The losing was extremely difficult," Little said. "But I loved the game. I loved all the facets of playing running back: rushing, receiving, returning punts and kickoffs. I didn't have to do all those things, but I thought I could help the team." (1)
Jack Ham, a Hall of Fame linebacker from the Pittsburgh Steelers dynasty, remembered Little as the most complete back of his era. “Floyd Little deserves to be in the Hall of Fame,” Ham said, “He was an amazing player. Not only was he a gifted runner and receiver, but incredibly smart. You couldn't cheat one way or the other with him, because he would beat you every time. He was the consummate professional. I looked forward to the Pro Bowl, so I could finally be on his team.” (1)
Hall of Fame linebacker Willie Lanier, who played for Kansas City, agreed with Ham's assessment: “Floyd was the kind of performer where you had to be at your best. When playing against most running backs, you had to determine how much error you could be off and still make the play. With Floyd, you had to be right the first time. You couldn't be off or he'd make you pay.” (1)
This is what the greatest running back in NFL history Jim Brown had to say. “I've said for years that Floyd deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. There's no question in my mind that he's one of the game's greatest players.” (3)
To me, Floyd Little’s career is even more impressive when you understand that defenses keyed on him every week and he still produced at a high level. I too think Floyd Little belongs in the Pro Football Hall of Fame and hope the sports writers will finally come to their senses. At least the Denver Broncos have made it known how special Floyd Little was. They retired his jersey number, 44, and Little was added to the Denver Broncos Ring of Fame.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I was sending out cards to be autographed and was reading the stats of Pete Johnson (RB for the Bengals and Dolphins back in the 70's and 80's). He had nearly 7000 total rushing/receiving yards and scored 82 TD's. That seems like an enormous number of TD's for a player that is practically unknown.
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
I agree, he has pretty good stats for a player you would not expect them from. Its even more impressive considering he only played 8 years and was a full back.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Nagurski, Thorpe, Hutson, Baugh, Largent..... Little? really? >>
Funny how you snuck Largent in there huh Joe? and you thought no one would notice....
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>I agree with Dan here (like we've been emailing about)
When you think Football Hall of Fame, you think of the greats of the game who reinvented it, the guys who only need their last name mentioned.
Nagurski, Thorpe, Hutson, Baugh, Largent..... Little? really?
Its watering down the HOF to be honest. I had no idea his numbers compared with others were that pale. Oh well >>
agreed. but on a side not I am of the firm belief that Sam Mills and Rickey Jackson should both be in. Even though Mills untimely death hurts him like it did to Derrick Thomas (who should have been a hands down 1st ballot selection) Jackson is hurt by being a bum off the field. He was one of the most dominant linebackers of his era, He and Mills anchored the corps that NFL Network named the best Linebacking corp in history, and he even tacked a Super Bowl win as a contributor in SF. He was much better than Andre Tippet, he just does not have a strong enough advocate to get him over the hump.
<< <i>Don't let the stats mislead you on Floyd Little...You can't look at stats from that era and compare them to RBs of today. From 1968-1973, here are the top 5 rushers, in yards, from that 6 year period:
1- Floyd Little 5,185
2- OJ Simpson 5,181
3- Larry Csonka 5,151
4- Larry Brown 5,037
5- Leroy Kelly 4,777
The knock on Little has always been, was he great enough long enough. Was that 6 year period enough to warrant inclusion in the HOF? He also shouldn't be punished because he played for terrible Bronco teams.
Jason >>
Hey Jason,
Stats can be used in any manner to make one player appear more productive or better than another.
What's not fair in the above comparison is that OJ was winning the Heisman Trophy in 1968 and not even in pro football yet. Larry Brown was a senior at Kansas and not in the pro's yet either. Csonka was basically splitting carries in a time share with Kiick and Mercury Morris, so he didn't get as many carries as Little.
Floyd Little was was the main guy in Denver, the featured back if you will, and did the bulk of the running. With that in mind.......
If you compare (5 years) 1969 to '73 in rushing, which were Little's best years in football, Little falls to 4th among this group in rushing yardage and average per carry.
In five of Little's nine years he averaged under 4.0 yards a carry, and two years he was right at 4.0. So only two years he averaged over 4.0 a carry which is about the NFL average rushing the ball.
Hardly HOF material.
I've never liked the Leroy Kelly to Floyd Little comparison either. Kelly wins it hands down.
Little scored 54 TD's in 9 years. He was a starter eight year.
Kelly scored 90 TD's in 10 seasons. He was a starter eight years.
When you further compare their careers, they are about a wash as far as returning kicks and punts and general yards from scrimmage.
Both guys were very good kick returners. Little lead the AFL once in punt returns, Kelly lead the NFL once and the AFC conference once.
Where Kelly really beats down Little in a comparison is Kelly was first team all-NFL three years and second team twice. Little was all-NFL once in 1971.
Kelly was the NFL's player of the year once. Little has no MVP's.
Kelly was named to the NFL's all decade team of the 1960's.
Considering he was the replacement running back for the game's greatest player in Jim Brown, that's quite an accomplishment.
If you take Kelly's best three years 1966, '67 or '68, any one of those years is better than Little's best year which is 1971.
I just don't think Little compares that favorably to Kelly. He's clearly a notch below.
Again, maybe a HOF'er, but putting him in just because the Denver franchise may have been slighted with the lack of players being voted into the HOF in the past doesn't cut it for me.
Denver as a franchise was Football's worst from 1960 to around 1976. That's why there's not more Broncos in the HOF from that era.
They stunk.
DE Rich Jackson deserves to be in the Hall along with MLB Randy Gradishier before Little, imho.
I also agree, Kelly is a notch above, but to me is a very small notch in style and substance. I assume the voters tend to agree. As Kelly was never elected as a modern candidate, but eventually got in via senior committee. And now Little has his shot.
I'm not an advocate for Floyd Little going into the HOF. You can look back through every page in this thread and never once will you have seen me singing his praises that he should be a senior selection. But IMO, he certainly warrants a vote. He's been among the final 15-17 Senior candidates every year since 2004 with the exception of 2005. There are other candidates who have been among those final 17 EVERY year since 2004. There names are Tommy Nobis and Dave Robinson, and to me are more deserving than Little. But Little isn't a bad choice at all. Not in the way that Marshall Goldberg and Emmitt Thomas were out of left field longshot choices.
Is Little HOF caliber? He's no lock that's for sure. But he is worthy of debate and i think he's got a 50/50 shot.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Truly disappointed Jerry Kramer did not make it, again.
Edited to say Floyd instead of Larry. Jimmy Buffett concert on Saturday, have yet to recover.
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
I've seen Jimmy Buffett more than a few times and it is always a party atmosphere.
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Was he the best back of his era? Not at all, but he was at the top of the class and often overlooked. On a better team with a better line, not only would his yardage numbers be better, but his TD's would've increased substantially. I wish him luck, but I think his chances are less than 50/50...
I think Billy Sims is one of the best RB's I've ever seen, but I wouldn't put him in the HOF .
I love the debate, but in the end Floyd got dealt a raw deal and played with a sucky team and it might have hurt his chance, he can join the other 99% of the NFL players out there who are great but are not HOFers.
Here's a great " what if"
If Tommy Nobis played on a great team instead of a developing Falcons team do you really think he would be waiting for the HOF call ? What if he played for some of those early Cowboys, Raiders or Steeler teams . My opion is that he would be thought of , the way we think of players like Nitschke, Lambert or Butkus.
So I would be interested in hearing what everyone thinks is the best player not in the HOF, that got dealt an extremely raw deal because of the sorry team he was drafted by ?
<< <i>You could ask that question about everyone that ever played in the NFL " what if " and its actually fun to think about what great players could have done if they played with a great offense line. What if Billy Sims , Williams Andrew , Freeman McNeil , Joe Delaney, James Brooks etc etc , played behind 90's cowboys line ?
I think Billy Sims is one of the best RB's I've ever seen, but I wouldn't put him in the HOF .
I love the debate, but in the end Floyd got dealt a raw deal and played with a sucky team and it might have hurt his chance, he can join the other 99% of the NFL players out there who are great but are not HOFers.
Here's a great " what if"
If Tommy Nobis played on a great team instead of a developing Falcons team do you really think he would be waiting for the HOF call ? What if he played for some of those early Cowboys, Raiders or Steeler teams . My opion is that he would be thought of , the way we think of players like Nitschke, Lambert or Butkus.
So I would be interested in hearing what everyone thinks is the best player not in the HOF, that got dealt an extremely raw deal because of the sorry team he was drafted by ? >>
I'd suggest Corey Dillon and Herschel Walker. Dillon played on some terrible Bengal's teams while Walker wasted time in the USFL. In my opinion Walker could of been a HOF'er had he went to the NFL sooner.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>When you look at the greatest RBs of all time Walter Payton played on some horrible teams with terrible O-lines where he had a target on his back because he was the only weapon on the team. While Emmit Smith enjoed playing beside Aikman and Irvin, Payton had Avellini and Scott from '75 up till '83. What if those two traded places. >>
Payton had a pretty good line from 83-87 while Smith had one from 91-95. The line started to go down hill after the their last Super Bowl victory as players aged, left, or retired. Payton had a pretty good group to run behind late in his career, a time when RB's need the most help from their OL. Jim Brown probably benefited the most from a dominant OL b/c he played behind multiple HOF'ers and All Pro's.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
<< <i>When you look at the greatest RBs of all time Walter Payton played on some horrible teams with terrible O-lines where he had a target on his back because he was the only weapon on the team. While Emmit Smith enjoed playing beside Aikman and Irvin, Payton had Avellini and Scott from '75 up till '83. What if those two traded places. >>
Payton had a pretty good line from 83-87 while Smith had one from 91-95. The line started to go down hill after the their last Super Bowl victory as players aged, left, or retired. Payton had a pretty good group to run behind late in his career, a time when RB's need the most help from their OL. Jim Brown probably benefited the most from a dominant OL b/c he played behind multiple HOF'ers and All Pro's. >>
Ahhh, the old chicken and the egg. Could it be that Jim Brown had a bunch of Pro Bowl/All-Pro linemen b/c they got noticed due to how dominant he was? Look at the Pro Bowl and All-Pro rosters over the years. For the most part, if the team had either a great running game or a great passing game, those OL had a better shot at being sleected than say an OL playing on a team with a terrible QB and weak RBs. How do you decide who made who better? Chicken and the egg....
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Payton was better than all of them, I have no bias
Same here w/ Emmitt.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Some of the cards were for my all time bears set, some for future hofers, and some for other misc sets.
1 N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT 1971 TOPPS 210 CHARLIE SANDERS
2 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1974 TOPPS 474 WALLY CHAMBERS
3 MINT 9 1975 TOPPS 360 LAWRENCE McCUTCHEON
4 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1976 TOPPS 257 RANDY GRADISHAR
5 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1977 TOPPS 146 HARRY CARSON
6 EXCELLENT 5 1978 TOPPS 217 FRED DEAN
7 MINT 9 1980 TOPPS 170 OTTIS ANDERSON ALL-PRO
8 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1980 TOPPS 195 LESTER HAYES
9 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1980 TOPPS 225 PHIL SIMMS
10 NEAR MINT 7 1981 TOPPS 342 MARK GASTINEAU
11 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1981 TOPPS 422 DWIGHT CLARK
12 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1983 TOPPS 41 OTIS WILSON
13 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1983 TOPPS 384 KENNY EASLEY
14 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1985 TOPPS 23 TODD BELL ALL PRO
15 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1985 TOPPS 32 STEVE MCMICHAEL
16 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1986 TOPPS 17 JAY HILGENBERG
17 NEAR MINT 7 1986 TOPPS 25 WILBER MARSHALL
18 NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1986 TOPPS 27 DAVE DUERSON
19 NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1986 TOPPS 248 LOMAS BROWN
20 MINT 9 1988 TOPPS 71 NEAL ANDERSON
21 MINT 9 1989 PRO SET 548 CARNELL LAKE
22 GEM MINT 10 1989 SCORE 167 CHRIS SPIELMAN
23 MINT 9 1989 SCORE 247 DONNELL WOOLFORD
24 MINT 9 1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE 30 MARK CARRIER
25 MINT 9 1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE 39 CORTEZ KENNEDY
26 MINT 9 1990 FLEER UPDATE U-81 RICHMOND WEBB
27 MINT 9 1990 SCORE 431 SHAUN GAYLE
28 MINT 9 1994 PLAYOFF 300 LARRY ALLEN
29 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1995 SP 3 STEVE McNAIR FOIL
30 MINT 9 1996 BOWMAN'S BEST 162 TEDY BRUSCHI
31 MINT 9 1999 PACIFIC 343 K.WARNER/T.HORNE
32 GEM MINT 10 2000 E-X 140 BRIAN URLACHER
33 GEM MINT 10 2000 TOPPS CHROME 253 BRIAN URLACHER
34 GEM MINT 10 2003 TOPPS CHROME 203 ANQUAN BOLDIN
35 MINT 9 2004 TOPPS CHROME 176 DeANGELO HALL
36 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 2004 TOPPS CHROME 227 CHRIS COOLEY
37 GEM MINT 10 2006 TOPPS CHROME 244 SANTONIO HOLMES
38 GEM MINT 10 2006 TOPPS CHROME 252 DEVIN HESTER
39 GEM MINT 10 2008 TOPPS CHROME TC191 MATT FORTE
40 MINT 9 2008 TOPPS CHROME TC193 DOMINIQUE RODGERS-CROMARTIE
SPAM alert! 1969 Topps Floyd Little PSA 9
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
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BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
I can say there was no one on the list who isn't already on the Future HOF Senior set.
One noticable absence from the 17 and the reason I am posting...Al Wistert
I was told, until he is recognized by the Eagles themselves and inducted into the teams Honor Roll, he's never making the HOF. So for those who were pushing for his election, my advice would be to press the Eagles organization and see if you can help make that happen first.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Why is there a big secret with the Sr. semi-Finalists? They make the Modern cutdown public, why not the Sr's? Just curious
Dave >>
I asked the same question. Was told it is to cut down on the campaigning of players to the senior committee. Sounds weak to me, but this year they went so far as to make people sign a confidentiality agreement. I don't get it either.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here's the top 10 RB's with the Best Offensive lines
OL
1735 55.9 Calvin Hill
4155 55.3 Jim Taylor
7971 54.9 Jim Brown
2074 52.8 Larry Csonka
1678 51.6 Mark van Eeghen
3443 50.4 Chuck Foreman
2465 48.5 Lenny Moore
4491 48.2 Priest Holmes
3261 47.8 Roger Craig
2025 46.2 James Brooks
3666 46.0 Lydell Mitchell
1504 45.9 Rick Casares
7057 45.4 Emmitt Smith
2295 45.1 Robert Smith
3964 44.8 Terrell Davis
3421 44.8 Leroy Kelly
1575 44.4 Pete Johnson
7445 44.1 Marshall Faulk
1723 44.0 Earnest Byner
5083 43.8 Thurman Thomas
Bottom 20
2668 33.6 Stephen Davis
1861 33.5 Thomas Jones
1691 33.0 Don Perkins
2731 32.8 Ricky Williams
2289 32.4 Floyd Little
3542 31.9 Ottis Anderson
2118 31.8 Deuce McAllister
2669 31.7 Gale Sayers
2328 31.7 Chris Warren
2609 31.5 Billy Sims
7126 31.2 Walter Payton
1551 30.6 John L. Williams
2221 30.4 Warrick Dunn
7105 30.2 LaDainian Tomlinson
1845 29.1 Paul Lowe
1705 27.7 Cookie Gilchrist
1700 25.2 Frank Gore
1986 25.0 James Wilder
2624 23.4 Abner Haynes
1802 -- Cliff Battles
Link to the site
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=3301
So you can make can make a case for Floyd based on this info.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I would however, trade several cards of mine for a higher grade RC (Even if it causes me to drop below 100%) All cards would be traded based on VCP averages.
For Example, If you have a nicely centered PSA 7 Johnny Unitas RC, ($505), I would trade you for my PSA 5 Unitas ($210), PSA 6 Blanda ($98), PSA 5 Hornung ($126), and PSA 7 Griese ($76)
For Reference, Here is my
HOF RC set
My HOF Sr. Set.............. All are available for trade except the Little and Lebeau
Everything else I have available
Let me know if any of you are interseted....
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
All cards are NQ
1950 Bowman Tom Fears PSA 9
1950 Bowman Joe Perry PSA 9
1955 Bowman Mike McCormack PSA 9
1955 Bowman Frank Gatski PSA 9
1964 Topps Bobby Bell PSA 9
1965 Philadelphia Paul Krause PSA 9
1969 Topps Larry Csonka PSA 9
1972 Topps Emmitt Thomas PSA 9
1974 Topps Joe DeLamielleure PSA 9
1989 Score Rod Woodson PSA 10
1989 Score Thurman Thomas PSA 10
Please email offers (using VCP) to madmandreamer@aol.com.
Payment by paypal.
Pics are available on these cards.
I will be adding cards that are for sale but don't have pics at this time.
Thank you.
Marc aka MAD
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
I'm always looking for tips and resources from some of the more experienced collectors at how to best fill out my set. One outlet that I have found to be a terrific source for some of my better cards in this set is Mint State, Inc. at www.mintstateinc.com. I can hardly understand how some of those cards have stayed on their website for as long as they have, so I'm taking down a number of them. Excellent service there too.
Now I'm sure that no one else in America has noticed this
<< <i>A quick count shows that there are 13 PSA collectors and 0 SGC collectors that have the Football HOF Rookies at 90% completion or more. That's rather exclusive company. Heck, I don't even own half of them yet. >>
Keith, you definitly have quality over quantity, it's only a matter of time before you are with the top few.
If a player is a standout and deserving Hall Of Famer, I'm more likely to persue that player's vintage card in a very high grade. I'm one whom feels that all major pro sports Hall Of Fames have been watered down with a lot of "If he's in, then he should be in too" voter sentiment (see my 8/13/09 post on this thread). I'm probably in the minority here, but would enjoy it even more if this set consist of 70-90 cards because there would be only that many HOF RC cards. Having an average of two annual inductees rather than up to six would be a better number, and keep Hall Of Fames more exclusive and special.
Consequently, that's why I focus on pouring disproportionately higher resources into this set's transcendent, game-changing players like Jim Brown, Chuck Bednarik, Don Hutson, Otto Graham, Red Grange, and Lawrence Taylor. Nonetheless, this is still a fantastic set to collect!
I acquired the 1958 Jim Brown RC PSA 9 in April '09 from...where else? Mint State, Inc.
SN's TOP 100
1. Peyton Manning, QB, Colts
2. Tom Brady, QB, Patriots
3. Adrian Peterson, RB, Vikings
4. Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Cardinals
5. LaDainian Tomlinson, RB, Chargers
6. Albert Haynesworth, DT, Redskins
7. Ed Reed, S, Ravens
8. Randy Moss, WR, Patriots
9. Troy Polamalu, S, Steelers
10. Tony Gonzalez, TE, Falcons
11. Ray Lewis, ILB, Ravens
12. Ben Roethlisberger, QB, Steelers
13. Dwight Freeney, DE, Colts
14. Steve Hutchinson, G, Vikings
15. DeMarcus Ware, OLB, Cowboys
16. Julius Peppers, DE, Panthers
17. Brian Westbrook, RB, Eagles
18. Drew Brees, QB, Saints
19. James Harrison, OLB, Steelers
20. Nnamdi Asomugha, CB, Raiders
21. Jared Allen, DE, Vikings
22. Donovan McNabb, QB, Eagles
23. Andre Johnson, WR, Texans
24. Steve Smith, WR, Panthers
25. Kurt Warner, QB, Cardinals
26. Champ Bailey, CB, Broncos
27. Shawne Merriman, OLB, Chargers
28. Osi Umenyiora, DE, Giants
29. Walter Jones, OT, Seahawks
30. Kevin Williams, DT, Vikings
31. Anquan Boldin, WR, Cardinals
32. Antonio Gates, TE, Chargers
33. Terrell Owens, WR, Bills
34. Alan Faneca, G, Jets
35. Patrick Willis, ILB, 49ers
36. Mario Williams, DE, Texans
37. Jeff Saturday, C, Colts
38. Jason Witten, TE, Cowboys
39. Brian Dawkins, S, Broncos
40. Matt Birk, C, Ravens
41. Joe Thomas, OT, Browns
42. Michael Turner, RB, Falcons
43. Clinton Portis, RB, Redskins
44. Bob Sanders, S, Colts
45. Terrell Suggs, OLB, Ravens
46. Justin Tuck, DE, Giants
47. Pat Williams, DT, Vikings
48. Joey Porter, OLB, Dolphins
49. Reggie Wayne, WR, Colts
50. Eli Manning, QB, Giants
51. Brett Favre, QB, Vikings
52. Asante Samuel, CB, Eagles
53. Chris Snee, G, Giants
54. Philip Rivers, QB, Chargers
55. Jordan Gross, OT, Panthers
56. Charles Woodson, CB, Packers
57. Lance Briggs, OLB, Bears
58. Tommie Harris, DT, Bears
59. Antonio Cromartie, CB, Chargers
60. Jammal Brown, OT, Saints
61. Brian Urlacher, MLB, Bears
62. Matt Light, OT, Patriots
63. Matt Ryan, QB, Falcons
64. James Farrior, ILB, Steelers
65. Vince Wilfork, NT, Patriots
66. Adrian Wilson, S, Cardinals
67. Lofa Tatupu, MLB, Seahawks
68. Jay Cutler, QB, Bears
69. Kris Jenkins, NT, Jets
70. Chris Johnson, RB, Titans
71. Shaun Rogers, NT, Browns
72. Julian Peterson, OLB, Lions
73. Kyle Vanden Bosch, DE, Titans
74. Trent Cole, DE, Eagles
75. Darnell Dockett, DT, Cardinals
76. Antoine Winfield, CB, Vikings
77. Willie Parker, RB, Steelers
78. Brandon Marshall, WR, Broncos
79. Leonard Davis, G, Cowboys
80. Aaron Kampman, OLB, Packers
81. Jon Beason, MLB, Panthers
82. Calvin Johnson, WR, Lions
83. Kris Dielman, G, Chargers
84. Andre Gurode, C, Cowboys
85. Jay Ratliff, NT, Cowboys
86. DeMeco Ryans, MLB, Texans
87. Roddy White, WR, Falcons
88. Michael Vick, QB, Eagles
89. Michael Roos, OT, Titans
90. Cortland Finnegan, CB, Titans
91. Ryan Clady, OT, Broncos
92. Haloti Ngata, NT, Ravens
93. John Abraham, DE, Falcons
94. Casey Hampton, NT, Steelers
95. Logan Mankins, G, Patriots
96. Steven Jackson, RB, Rams
97. Richard Seymour, DE, Raiders
98. Darrelle Revis, CB, Jets
99. LaMarr Woodley, OLB, Steelers
100. Dallas Clark, TE, Colts
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
It's only up to 34K!!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Goodwin & Co. has presented this Luckman and other cards so well in their catalog, devoting a full page to many cards, accompanied with essayish prose replete with fun adjective and anecdote.
Thanks for origination and your ongoing set input, Dave. I appreciate how you add scans of all your cards to the Registry and try to keep this Message Board thread on-topic: the cards and collector sets that make up this Registry.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
All cards are NQ
1950 Bowman Tom Fears PSA 9 - NONE HIGHER - $1,600
1955 Bowman Mike McCormack PSA 9 - NONE HIGHER - $900
1965 Philadelphia Paul Krause PSA 9 - 1 HIGHER - $900
1969 Topps Larry Csonka PSA 9 - NONE HIGHER - $1200
1972 Topps Emmitt Thomas PSA 9 - NONE HIGHER - $425
1974 Topps Joe DeLamielleure PSA 9 - 5 HIGHER - $125
All prices include priority shipping and insurance.
Payment by paypal.
Pics are available on request.
Thank you.
Marc aka MAD
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
Speaking of Jim Brown, the ESPN Radio guys among other media sure have brought up his name a lot lately in comparing that unforgettable Adrian Peterson run the other day. Sports Collectors Daily ran an article about the Top 10 1950s Football Cards where they lauded the deal that a fellow member of this Registry Set realized earlier this year on a high grade 1958 Topps Jim Brown rookie.
Near the beginning of October, a column that I have written highlighting a favorite card of this set will appear in Mike Denero's Vintage Sportscards newsletter. I'll share it here then. It was fun to write and I'll be authoring more football than baseball card columns for publication during football season.
Finally, does anyone know how I've derived these rankings based on our set? Think about it a little before you check.
#1: 1955 Topps All-American Ace Parker
#2: 1948 Leaf Steve Van Buren
#3: 1948 Leaf Bill Dudley
The answer is at this cool site.
Three of the top six guys are Eagles. So am I being partisan is stating "Long Live The Eagles"(literally)? Just having fun here
I also love the looks of your Van Buren RC... That is one of the 48 leaf's that I really want to find in a PSA 6 centered good like yours....
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!