I have an extra PSA/DNA slabbed Christman. If you are interested, send me an e-mail and I can send over a scan. I tried to message you, but I think your messages are turned off. Thanks.
Been reading this for a while, dealt with many of you... Rocke let me know the HOF tickets that you need from the 1990's, Bart will complete that trade one of these days (the autograph I have set aside for you is yours) Mark sorry, do not have duplicates to trade from your list, Rev Moran have the program with your fathers signature on it. Finally took the time and joined.
<< <i> Rev Moran have the program with your fathers signature on it.
Tony >>
Is that a team signed 1933 Giants program? Ron Gordon sent me a photocopy of a 1933 program he once owned, which was a big help because my father signed things differently back then.
Hi Tony, Been a while. Glad you finally took the time to join. Great bunch of people on this site with some AMAZING items. Here is what I am still looking for as far as Football Hall of Fame Game tickets go: I still need a full, not torn, what would be considered at least an "8" unused ticket for the 1978 Philadelphia / Miami
I have a ticket, but am looking to upgrade to a full, not torn, what would be considered at least an "8" unused ticket for the 1963 Pittsburgh / Cleveland 1964 Baltimore / Pittsburgh 1965 Washington / Detroit 1975 Cincinatti / Washington 1979 Oakland / Dallas 1981 Cleveland / Atlanta 1984 Seattle / Tampa Bay 1986 New England / St. Louis 1987 San Francisco / Kansas City 1988 Cincinatti / L.A. Rams 1991 Detroit / Denver 1993 L.A. Raiders/ Green Bay 2002 N.Y. Giants / Houston I have a ticket to every other game from 1962 up, in what would be considered NM/Mint condition. If anyone can help me out with this list, it would be Greatly appreciated !!!
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
I'm trying to complete my autographs of players/coaches featured on the 1955 Topps All-American set. Have it down to five non-hofers. Let me know if anybody has these available for sale/trade. Prefer 3x5s.
1. Andy Bershak 2. Bill Daddio 3. Al Lassman 4. Cas Myslinski 5. Don Zimmerman
A guy contacted me a few months ago and showed me a sheet signed by a bunch of players, Don Zimmerman was on it. I have been looking for an autograph from him for a long while. He put it on eBay and I missed it...as usual. It sold for just under $200.
Here is another that just went on ebay. Jack Bighead 3x5 - what a name. Sold for $1!!!! I can't believe I missed it! Did anyone here get it?
Currency Wants: Any note with serial number 00000731
Not sure I know Don Zimmerman - is the player drafted by the Eagles in 1972? I don't see any NFL played named Zimmerman listed as being from Tulane in pro-football-reference.com
This Don Zimmerman never played pro-football but he was an All-American for Tulane in the early 1930's (1932 All-American). He is #49 in the 1955 Topps All-American card set. Find that one signed and you really have something! There is no relationship with the 1970's Don Zimmerman (Eagles/Packers).
Currency Wants: Any note with serial number 00000731
One thing that gets under my skin regarding this hobby is when people who present themselves as "dealers" purchase collectibles on well-advertised collector auctions (RR, RE, Lelands, Heritage, etc) and then put them up on their website a week later.....for 6-7 times what they paid. Now I understand the need to make a profit and I'm all for capitalism, but 6-7 times what they paid is excessive. Especially when those pieces are acquired from a well-advertised collector’s auction. Now acquiring a Turk Edwards autograph from an estate sale for $5 is not what I am referring to. A well-respected collectors auction will establish the current market value of a collectible. To then turn it around for that much of a markup is unethical. Clearly their customers are not informed collectors, which in my mind makes it even worse.
Mark....good post, I agree with you 100%. I've seen a number of items that have been purchased on eBay and then they will appear on someone elses site at a HUGE profit.
One thing that gets under my skin regarding this hobby is when people who present themselves as "dealers" purchase collectibles on well-advertised collector auctions (RR, RE, Lelands, Heritage, etc) and then put them up on their website a week later.....for 6-7 times what they paid. Now I understand the need to make a profit and I'm all for capitalism, but 6-7 times what they paid is excessive. Especially when those pieces are acquired from a well-advertised collector’s auction. Now acquiring a Turk Edwards autograph from an estate sale for $5 is not what I am referring to. A well-respected collectors auction will establish the current market value of a collectible. To then turn it around for that much of a markup is unethical. Clearly their customers are not informed collectors, which in my mind makes it even worse.
What are your thoughts?
Mark >>
I agree to disagree, but agree that it has to be taken in context. If you are buying up lots at auctions, breaking them up and getting them into collector's hands who possibly didn't know about them and are making a profit - I see nothing wrong with this. Anyone watch "American Pickers?" They find junk no one wants - restore it (or get it into the hands of those that enjoy restoring it - and turn someone's garbage into gold. It's the same concept. I recently bought a lot of 1997 UD Legends autographs and broke the 86 apart to help collectors complete their set. I made about $350 on my $1,400 investment. I don't feel wrong about that at all, and I know they are grateful to me for helping them out. Of course I sold them at below ebay prices, but the concept remains the same.
Now if I bought them at $1,400 and tried to sell a Dan Fouts autograph for $100 that usually sells for $20 to a kid and I'm obviously taking advantage of him then yes, of course it's wrong. If I'm asking $100 on ebay and someone hits the BIN because it's the last card he needs for the set and there isn't another one should I feel bad about that? Absolutely not IMO. The market is driven by what someone is willing to pay. If someone is willing to pay it - and you aren't deliberately taking advantage of someone - what's wrong with making a profit on an investment you made? And that's exactly what it is - if you buy auctions and sell them it's a business. If you were in it to break even you wouldn't last long. I view it as getting collectables into the hands of collectors who treasure them and maybe wouldn't have been able to find it. If someone is willing to pay it; why would you do anything but try to maximize your profits? If they don't think it's a good deal for them, they will counter offer you until they find a range they are comfortable at.
Collect HOF Autos and Anything Raiders.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
I take Mark's point to be that when a well advertised auction establishes a market price for an item, if you then try and sell it for 400% or 500% or more, you're looking to hook a sucker. If you're a dealer, show your knowledge of the market. Some dealers I know regularly ask for 200% of what I think is the auction market rate, but that's ok by me - they are doing this for a living and they are willing to hold on to their stock for the right buyer at the right time. And if it takes too long they often come down - but I don't get the impression they are waiting for the buyer with no knowledge of the market to come along and take their bait.
<< <i>I take Mark's point to be that when a well advertised auction establishes a market price for an item, if you then try and sell it for 400% or 500% or more, you're looking to hook a sucker. If you're a dealer, show your knowledge of the market. Some dealers I know regularly ask for 200% of what I think is the auction market rate, but that's ok by me - they are doing this for a living and they are willing to hold on to their stock for the right buyer at the right time. And if it takes too long they often come down - but I don't get the impression they are waiting for the buyer with no knowledge of the market to come along and take their bait. >>
To be 100% honest I didn't know about other online auction houses until about 6 months ago. All of my collecting came from ebay, and part of that is my ignorance. But if you get it from one medium that has, say 10,000 potential buyers into a medium that has 100 million worldwide your odds of finding a die hard collector increases.
So again, it needs to be in context. Are you buying a Jim Thorpe autograph for $800 at an auction house and putting it on ebay for $2,400 OBO? If you can find a die hard Jim Thorpe collector that has never seen an 8x10 of him with a Governor of your home state or something like that and it has "Property of Jim Thorpe" on the back it may be more meaningful to some collector for whatever reason it is. Anytime you expose yourself to 100 or 1,000x the potential buyers as where you got it from, your ability to reach that one collector increases. And that's all it takes - one buyer has the ability to drive the market when you have oddball items.
Now if it's an uncertified Hank Aaron TTM card you got from an auction house and are selling it at PSA certified auto prices, then I completely agree with you. I think it just depends on what kind of items we are talking about.
Collect HOF Autos and Anything Raiders.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
Raidgerguy - I think it is irrelevant of the item. Those who claim to be "dealers" are held to a higher standard than the average collector. They are viewed by many to be the experts in that field. Now I am not referring to items acquired below market value (estate finds, large lots, inheritance, etc). What I am specifically referring to are pieces acquired from a well-advertised collector’s auction that are immediately turned around for 6-7 times what the market dictates. So for your Jim Thorpe example....say that autograph sold for $800 at auction. For a dealer to then acquire that piece and sell it on his website for $5600 is unethical. People look to dealers so they won't get ripped off...yet they are.
So what is a fair markup? When I owned a sports card store (remember those?) we bought at 50% of book and sold at 80-100% of book value. So roughly a 100% (2x) markup. That was the industry standard. Even as Rev points out...200% markup would be acceptable. But again, I am referring to pieces only acquired through collector’s auctions where the market value for that particular piece has been established.
Most reputable dealers don't even buy pieces on these auction sites for that very reason. Why compete against your customers? A dealer should be looking for pieces through other avenues to maximize their profits.
When I said 200% I meant double the auction market rate or a 100% mark up. There has been a 1938 NFL Championship program on eBay for quite some time with a BIN of $10,000 - no autographs. I bought that same program signed by most of the Giants on eBay for $800. Another collector tried to sell that program (unsigned) on eBay for something like $1,200 and pointed out the $10,000 program to show the buyer what a bargain they were getting. The $10,000 seller, a dealer, got very miffed and wrote some almost threatening emails to the person trying to sell for $1,200. There is a reasonable range for this stuff and then you move into the zone where it's either a great bargain on one end or a rip off at the other end of the spectrum. When I buy from Joe Colabella for cards or Rich Albersheim for autographs I don't expect the lowest price, but I'll pay more because they are steady with quality and I have confidence in their judgment.
<< <i>Raidgerguy - I think it is irrelevant of the item. Those who claim to be "dealers" are held to a higher standard than the average collector. They are viewed by many to be the experts in that field. Now I am not referring to items acquired below market value (estate finds, large lots, inheritance, etc). What I am specifically referring to are pieces acquired from a well-advertised collector’s auction that are immediately turned around for 6-7 times what the market dictates. So for your Jim Thorpe example....say that autograph sold for $800 at auction. For a dealer to then acquire that piece and sell it on his website for $5600 is unethical. People look to dealers so they won't get ripped off...yet they are.
So what is a fair markup? When I owned a sports card store (remember those?) we bought at 50% of book and sold at 80-100% of book value. So roughly a 100% (2x) markup. That was the industry standard. Even as Rev points out...200% markup would be acceptable. But again, I am referring to pieces only acquired through collector’s auctions where the market value for that particular piece has been established.
Most reputable dealers don't even buy pieces on these auction sites for that very reason. Why compete against your customers? A dealer should be looking for pieces through other avenues to maximize their profits.
Good discussion....any other thoughts?? >>
All you say is true and are legitimate points, but there is a context to everything. I know someone who won 10 Richard Seymour signed photos for $45. He is planning on selling them for $30 each. While this is well below what ebay is he stands to make $260 (roughly) on a $45 investment. Is that wrong, or should he be limited to selling them for $10 each since he only paid $5 each?
Collect HOF Autos and Anything Raiders.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
<< <i>[All you say is true and are legitimate points, but there is a context to everything. I know someone who won 10 Richard Seymour signed photos for $45. He is planning on selling them for $30 each. While this is well below what ebay is he stands to make $260 (roughly) on a $45 investment. Is that wrong, or should he be limited to selling them for $10 each since he only paid $5 each? >>
That would not bother me at all - seems fair enough. And I think ebay auctions are sometimes wild cards, not real market indicators. Sometimes there are even bargains with the big auction houses. One time a fellow collecter outbid me in a Mastro (or similar) auction for the first two Hall of Fame programs (1963 & 1964) signed by many players and their presenters - I stopped bidding at $2,100, but then since he only needed the 1964 program he put the 1963 up on eBay and I spent about $2,000 just on that - I was happy to get it and thought that was a good deal for both of us - if he had put up the 1963 program with a BIN of $4,000 or $6,000 I would not have bought it and felt it was price gouging.
BTW the autographs on the 1963 program were Sammy Baugh, Pete Calac, James Conzelman, Jim Crowley, Red Grange, Joe Guyon, George Halas, Mel Hein, Cal Hubbard, Don Hutson, Curley Lambeau, Frank Lausche, Elmer Layden, John "Jack" Mara, David McDonald, John Blood McNally, Don Miller, Rip Miller, Art Modell, Bronko Naugrski, Ernie Nevers, Harry Robb, Art Rooney, Earl Schreiber, Toots Shor, Harry Stuhldreher, Dan Tehan, Byron White, and Gene Woodling
Exactly my point Rev. Here is a more specific example....
Back in 2007 there was a small group of 13 autographs up for auction on RR. I was outbid the night the auction ended for a hammer price of $770 (including buyers premium). The next month, 9 of those pieces were up on a dealers website for a total amount of....$7520! Four years later all but one of those pieces are still on that dealers website. This dealer isn't trying to sell these pieces to an educated collector. They are hoping for a sucker to come along and pay an absurd price. Now without question this is legal....but is it ethical? This guy is promoting himself as an expert in the field and people go to his website in the hopes of getting a fair price. Is he possibly taking advantage of that position? Clearly opinions vary.
By the way Rev...that sounds like a nice program!!
This is a topic I would like to comment on. However....this is just too good to pass up sharing with my fellow collectors. Forgive my deviation but there , right now on ebay, I offer the exact opposite of the current topic. Collectors driving down the value of higher end HOF autographs by selling at quite reasonable prices ! Authentic ,too! It says so! Search Jim Thorpe, Johnny Blood , or Jim Finks. I especially like when you view all 5 items for sale top to bottom....
I could not find the Thorpe autograph you were talking about, but there was a signed Pop Warner letter from History Direct for $7,999 - I guess the three page handwritten signed letter I bought on eBay from Pop to James Bradshaw where he says "leaving Stanford was the worst mistake of my life" was a bargain - it went for $199.95
I noticed those autographs Puppe.....I'm sure they will pass JSA or PSA no problem! lol I've sent messages to a number of eBay Sellers questioning their pricing on items and I've received some responses where I was called everything but a human being. There was a guy or kid out there trying to sell a 1975 Fleer Jim Thorpe card for $2000 if my memory serves me correctly. I offered to sell him as many as he wanted for the reasonable price of $100 ea. he didn't find the humor in that even when I pointed out to him that he could make $1900 on ea one he sold. It is comical to do a search on eBay for an item and then see the wide range of prices.
This guy definitely was looking for a sucker but am I to feel bad that I purchased a signed PSA slabbed Benny Friedman 3x5" for $10 because the guy spelled his name as Freedman??? Or the signed 1969 HOF Induction Program cover that I purchased for $20 that was advertised as signed by Joe Perry, but it was also signed by Nomellini, Stautner, Turk Edwards, and Greasy Neale. Or the many signed HOF class envelopes because there weren't advertised correctly. An Example is the Class of 1980 w/Presenters signed by Adderly, Deacon Jones, Lilly, Otto and also signed by Ewbank, Willie Davis, Tom Brookshier, and a couple of other guys named George Allen and Al Davis that I picked up for $51.
I guess it really boils down to the old saying "buyer beware". I remember listening to a radio personality several years ago when he was telling a story about a criminal and he made the statement that 50% of the people wake up everyday trying to screw the other 50% out of something.....there is a lot of truth in that statement if you think about it!
<< <i>Hello All, Reese, could you do me a favor, and post a link , or photo, of the Walt Kiesling letter from the May 6, 2006 auction. Item # 19282. It came in todays mail. I had to pay an extra $50.00 to help cover the listing / Paypal fees. My final price was $1,650.00 , but to me totally worth it. I have only seen 4 or 5 Kiesling autographs, and this is far and away the best of the few that I have seen. I still am finding it hard to believe that It's actually mine. It will be in it's new home ( my bank safe deposit box ) this coming Wednesday. Thanks in advance Reese. Rocke >>
Here you go Rocke. This is a beautiful document and signature. I'm very jealous! Congrats on a great addition
>>
Well, until now, I have kept this little secret to myself, but with the posts over the last few days, this seems like the time to "let the cat out of the bag", so to speak. I consider this item, one of my top 5 "prizes" in my collection, but have not told the story of how I came to buy it. As we all know ( or SHOULD ) know, Walt's last name is spelled K-I-E-S-L-I-N-G. Only, when the seller listed it on Ebay, he spelled it K-E-I-S-L-I-N-G. By transposing the E & I, it didn't show up on anyone's watch list. It was listed with a BIN or best offer...... I knew what he had paid for it in the Heritage auction approx. 4 years earlier, so I made an offer a little above that, hoping he would take it, and to my delight, he did !!! The letter did not have a Letter of Authenticity with it, but I knew that PSA had OK'D it for the Heritage Auction. I have since turned it in to PSA, and now have a full LOA from PSA for it. Feel like I got a SUPER GREAT item at a SUPER GREAT price. Isn't that part of the fun of this hobby? Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
<< <i>I could not find the Thorpe autograph you were talking about, but there was a signed Pop Warner letter from History Direct for $7,999 - I guess the three page handwritten signed letter I bought on eBay from Pop to James Bradshaw where he says "leaving Stanford was the worst mistake of my life" was a bargain - it went for $199.95 >>
Hey Mike, looks like someone made an offer of $125.00 for the Thorpe, and the seller took it. Look up Ebay item # 280659826937.
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
Tomorrow night I am picking up 2010 Football Hall of Famer Floyd Little at CAK. He gets in late, so I am sure it will be straight to the hotel. Will hopefully get to take him to breakfast Sunday morning. Autograph session is from 12:30 - 3:00 PM. His return flight does not take off until 6:55 PM That means dinner, and a trip over to the Rocke Hall of Fame. He will be Hall of Famer # 6 to autograph my rec-room wall. Should be a GREAT weekend for me !!!
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
I see that Thorpe "auto" now - between that and the Kiesling below I'd say we covered the good, the bad, and the ugly - only the Kiesling is more than good, it's great! And the price was mighty fine - a deal like that every once in a while keeps it exciting - glad you posted it.
<< <i>I wanted to offer this on here before I put it on e-bay. A few months ago I was able to purchase the remaining inventory of signed football cards from a man who would conduct occasional private signings with Sammy Baugh. I purchased the remaining 50 cards and had them authenticated and encapsulated by PSA/DNA (Blue Flip). The breakdown of cards is as follows:
This would be a great lot for someone who sets up at shows. Just looking to get my costs back on this purchase. At this time only looking to get rid of all 50 at one time. Would consider trades for some of the remaining football HOFers I need. PM me if you are interested, thanks, Tim >>
I sold half of these, looking to get rid of the rest individually. Let me know if anyone is interested, price is $25 paypal delivered. I could do a little better on multiple cards. List is updated.
I agree with you to a point. As most here know, I sold some autographs recently. Some, are now in the hands of a dealer that I won't mention but I'm sure you can figure it out (or you can PM me). Now, he marked up the prices from 10x to 50x what he paid me for them. I really can't say anything negative about it though. I am not sure why dealers do this since there is no way that someone is going to pay his high prices. It looks like he did sell a few that were marked up 10x what he paid me, but I think I only saw that 1 or 2 times. Most are and probably will be sitting there for years. Do they wait for suckers to come along? I guess.
It is pretty easy for all of us here, since we are always searching and looking for rare autographs to see when something sells in an auction for $x and we then see it on a dealers web site for $X times 50 or more, that we should probably stay away. If one of us really wanted it in the first place, we probably would have bid.
Lately, I am more upset about another topic. How many people here have the 'Total Football' Encyclopedia? When this first came out I was blown away by all the information. Well fast forward to recent times and the book is basically a joke. Well, I guess the writers/researchers for the book did give us a base of information but the amount of mistakes, - wrong birth dates, death dates, names, nicknames and middle names is amazing. They basically just put information about a certain player in the book that "seemed" to fit or they did it knowing it was faulty information just so they wouldn't have a blank space. I suppose they figured nobody would ever check their work. There have been literally hundreds (I lost count) of errors. Sad for something that many people figured was researched by 'football historians'.
The best example of this would be the listing of Fay 'Mule' Wilson - they have "HIM" dying in 1991. The person with that information is a female (The first female to play pro-football perhaps?). The real Fay Wilson died in 1937. There are hundreds more...
Jim
Currency Wants: Any note with serial number 00000731
<< <i>I see that Thorpe "auto" now - between that and the Kiesling below I'd say we covered the good, the bad, and the ugly - only the Kiesling is more than good, it's great! And the price was mighty fine - a deal like that every once in a while keeps it exciting - glad you posted it. >>
I was actually the one who bought the Thorpe. I wanted to get more information from the seller and make sure no one got screwed. When I messaged him and told him it wasn't genuine he got back to me right away. They are just getting started, and I gave them some advice and how I knew they weren't genuine. He took the McNally auction down immediately. I gave him some advice going forward and let him know what kinds of things to look for. He bought some autos from a local guy and was trying to resell them not knowing they were fake.
That being said I did pay for the Thorpe. For my troubles he is sending me JSA certified George Halas and Dutch Clark index cards. Both needed for my HOF PC and well worth the $125 in place of the "Thorpe." Again proving a point that everything needs to be taken in context and its not always what it seems. There are some good ones still out there.
Collect HOF Autos and Anything Raiders.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
Some of you guys bring up great points regarding the hobby. Others are missing my point. My comments above were directed ONLY toward those who promote themselves as DEALERS. Someone who lists bogus autographs on ebay doesn't make them a dealer. Heck most of us have sold LEGIT items on ebay and I highly doubt any of us would consider ourselves dealers.
A dealer is someone who promotes themselves as an expert in the hobby, obtains a steady income from the hobby, has a customer base, etc. Examples include Rich Altman, Albersheim, Kevin Keating, etc. I believe an honest dealer should provide authentic merchandise at a fair price. They are considered the experts in the field. People who are not as informed in the hobby frequently turn to this specific group for their collecting needs. Some of these collectors are unaware of the current market trends and look to these dealers for a fair price. When a dealer takes advantage of that position and charges 6-7x market value for a piece, I believe that is unethical.
By the way...Ebay rarely determines the market value of an item. It is not considered a high end auction house (like RR, RE, Lelands, Huggins, Hunt, etc). Sometimes the buyer makes out on a great deal at auction, sometimes the seller does. Nothing wrong with that. That is what makes our hobby exciting. Great finds are made every day on ebay (like the Friedman or Kiesling). However there is still a set market value for those pieces....one that dealers are well aware of. I feel charging 6-7x market value (remember market value is NOT necessarily what you paid) is wrong.
On a lighter note....have a great Easter week everyone.
One thing that gets under my skin regarding this hobby is when people who present themselves as "dealers" purchase collectibles on well-advertised collector auctions (RR, RE, Lelands, Heritage, etc) and then put them up on their website a week later.....for 6-7 times what they paid. Now I understand the need to make a profit and I'm all for capitalism, but 6-7 times what they paid is excessive. Especially when those pieces are acquired from a well-advertised collector’s auction. Now acquiring a Turk Edwards autograph from an estate sale for $5 is not what I am referring to. A well-respected collectors auction will establish the current market value of a collectible. To then turn it around for that much of a markup is unethical. Clearly their customers are not informed collectors, which in my mind makes it even worse.
What are your thoughts?
Mark >>
Hey Mark, I understand exactly what ( and who ) you are talking about, and I also do NOT like it. We have ALL bought an item at one price, knowing we got a good deal, and then a couple weeks, months, or even years later, sell the item and make some money on that item. This is a touchy subject for me, as I have bought a few items from one of these people when they have run auctions on Ebay, and have talked a number of times with another dealer who does the same thing. I also strongly suspect that a couple of these autograph dealers DO read this thread. And although everything I am saying about this subject, on this post, right now is either fact, or my opinion, NONE of it is wrong. It also seems that a couple of these major dealers are also working together. Two examples : There is a signed Dan Reeves 8 x 10 photo that the winning bid was $1026.00 and is now for sale for $2,500.00 on TWO DIFFERENT websites. There is also a signed Fritz Pollard 8 x 10 that sold ( both of these items were in the March RRAuction ) for $1,149.00 and is now for sale on the same two websites for $7,500.00 !!!!!!!! My guess, one ( or probably both ) of these dealers will shortly have the Steve Owen 8 x 10 that just sold in the most recent RRAuction. I guess it would be nice to have a customer base that probably has no idea that there is such as a thing as sports memorabilia auction sites, or they would buy it themselves, instead of paying VERY high prices to what amounts to be a middle-man. Mark, what can you do ? Is it ethical ???? If there are people that are VERY rich, VERY lazy, VERY stupid, and have a " I want it, and I want it now " attitude, then those people deserve to, basically, get ripped off. Like I said, it would be nice to have a customer base like that.
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
<< <i>I see that Thorpe "auto" now - between that and the Kiesling below I'd say we covered the good, the bad, and the ugly - only the Kiesling is more than good, it's great! And the price was mighty fine - a deal like that every once in a while keeps it exciting - glad you posted it. >>
I was actually the one who bought the Thorpe. I wanted to get more information from the seller and make sure no one got screwed. When I messaged him and told him it wasn't genuine he got back to me right away. They are just getting started, and I gave them some advice and how I knew they weren't genuine. He took the McNally auction down immediately. I gave him some advice going forward and let him know what kinds of things to look for. He bought some autos from a local guy and was trying to resell them not knowing they were fake.
That being said I did pay for the Thorpe. For my troubles he is sending me JSA certified George Halas and Dutch Clark index cards. Both needed for my HOF PC and well worth the $125 in place of the "Thorpe." Again proving a point that everything needs to be taken in context and its not always what it seems. There are some good ones still out there. >>
Hi All,
Well have you seen the listing that the Thorpe, Blood seller has listed now on eBay? There eBay ID is tbair94. The item I am talking about is eBay#280663601112. It is a NFL quarterback book signed by a unbelievable list of Hall of Famers including: Herber, Driscoll, Unitas, Dutch Clark, Friedman, Luckman, Conzelman and I could go on and on. 21 in total. Red flags go up all around on this seller including listing items for only 3 days, bad photos many to blurry to make out etc.. Many of the autographs in the book that you can make out are garbage. Now maybe the seller does not understand he is selling items that are not genuine like raider guy said, However, it still does not make it right. Any thoughts???
What I find amusing is that every one of thos items he has listed at a cheaper than bargain price except for the John Randle signed 8" x 10" that has a Chantilly COA card, if the card indeed belongs to the photo. Everything as you say is so blurry or dark you can't read it but the photo is out there for $39.99
<< <i>I see that Thorpe "auto" now - between that and the Kiesling below I'd say we covered the good, the bad, and the ugly - only the Kiesling is more than good, it's great! And the price was mighty fine - a deal like that every once in a while keeps it exciting - glad you posted it. >>
I was actually the one who bought the Thorpe. I wanted to get more information from the seller and make sure no one got screwed. When I messaged him and told him it wasn't genuine he got back to me right away. They are just getting started, and I gave them some advice and how I knew they weren't genuine. He took the McNally auction down immediately. I gave him some advice going forward and let him know what kinds of things to look for. He bought some autos from a local guy and was trying to resell them not knowing they were fake.
That being said I did pay for the Thorpe. For my troubles he is sending me JSA certified George Halas and Dutch Clark index cards. Both needed for my HOF PC and well worth the $125 in place of the "Thorpe." Again proving a point that everything needs to be taken in context and its not always what it seems. There are some good ones still out there. >>
Well, it was pretty generous of Raiderguy to take a bullet on the Thorpe. Hey, maybe, right? Maybe it was real and he caught a deal. But it isn't and he didn't. I'm curious if he has recieved his JSA certified Halas & Dutch. I absolutely don't buy that this seller is guileless re: these cards. He may have played it off as such, but that was just to shake a dog off his tail. This is straight up fraud ! Selling a few higher end items on short auction with a sh***y scan and as is Text. 5-10 cards a week at 1C or so per...adds up quick. Fast cash and list another few with the same story. There are serious collectors on this site, and most of us shake our heads when we come across inevitable fakes. Folks, that's a battle never to be won. But. In this regard, when it comes to something a little more specialized ( as opposed to 10 Richard Seymour 8 x 10's as an example , or any current player really ), items that a younger less educated collector may buy thinking he caught a break and down the line somewhere passing it on or re-selling it, then people who know better- and if you saw any of these items you know better! - bear due dilligence to run that cheating worm down the road. Let them try another line of counterfitting because that's all this is. A personal liscense to print money. Dollar Bills Yo. I sent him an email and called him on it and my next mail is to ebay unless he pulls these items he himself signed last Sunday. 42 years after Arnie Herber died. ps- Raiderguy this is in no way any negative reflection on you. Quite the opposite. It was forthright and decent of you to address this with the benefit of the doubt.
I to have seen these Auctions that this guy has put up & at first I thought he just didn’t know better… as the prices where WAY off & the signatures where obviously fakes to people who know the hobby…
But now I just noticed that he’s now selling under different user names, eBay ID tbair94 & richiel1127. Its obviously the same guy… the auctions are worded exactly the same & the same blurry distant pictures. Now this guy def knows what he is selling… he knows what people are looking for, he has a Fritz Pollard signature for $149 up right now… I wish!
Now everyone on here is educated & knows what is real or not (probably better than PSA & them)… but he’s not going after the educated people…
Regarding eBay ID tbair94, richiel1127, and the other name he is using, lets all contact eBay and let them know. They are very good about ridding the site of these clowns. On a personal agenda and to remind everyone of another scumbag, I will say I did not know CJ Dunsmore had a cousin in Maryland!
Does anyone need a 1964 Topps Broncos Team card signed by Mac Speedie for their future HOF Auto set? It's PSA/DNA encapsulated graded a 3. PM me if interested
Reese
Collecting the following autographed sets: HOF RC Auto Set 1955 Topps Football AA 1950 Bowman Football 1951 Bowman Football 1952 Bowman Football
ebay user- Jolt333 Please be sure to check out my auctions!
There really wasn't a bullet though. Ebay/paypal had me covered. I protected myself. The Halas and Clark have been shipped. I also got a JSA certified Ed Healey from him. I've verified all 3 on JSA's website prior to payment. When I get them next week I'll post scans. I've exchanged probably 15 emails with him and he has been very courteous every time. I have no complaints. I had no intention on paying for the Thorpe, but couldn't pass up the Halas and Clark for that price. Also got a good deal on the Healey. If I have problems ebay will protect me and I paid with CC on paypal for extra protection. I am 100% comfortable with it though....not worried.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I see that Thorpe "auto" now - between that and the Kiesling below I'd say we covered the good, the bad, and the ugly - only the Kiesling is more than good, it's great! And the price was mighty fine - a deal like that every once in a while keeps it exciting - glad you posted it. >>
I was actually the one who bought the Thorpe. I wanted to get more information from the seller and make sure no one got screwed. When I messaged him and told him it wasn't genuine he got back to me right away. They are just getting started, and I gave them some advice and how I knew they weren't genuine. He took the McNally auction down immediately. I gave him some advice going forward and let him know what kinds of things to look for. He bought some autos from a local guy and was trying to resell them not knowing they were fake.
That being said I did pay for the Thorpe. For my troubles he is sending me JSA certified George Halas and Dutch Clark index cards. Both needed for my HOF PC and well worth the $125 in place of the "Thorpe." Again proving a point that everything needs to be taken in context and its not always what it seems. There are some good ones still out there. >>
Well, it was pretty generous of Raiderguy to take a bullet on the Thorpe. Hey, maybe, right? Maybe it was real and he caught a deal. But it isn't and he didn't. I'm curious if he has recieved his JSA certified Halas & Dutch. I absolutely don't buy that this seller is guileless re: these cards. He may have played it off as such, but that was just to shake a dog off his tail. This is straight up fraud ! Selling a few higher end items on short auction with a sh***y scan and as is Text. 5-10 cards a week at 1C or so per...adds up quick. Fast cash and list another few with the same story. There are serious collectors on this site, and most of us shake our heads when we come across inevitable fakes. Folks, that's a battle never to be won. But. In this regard, when it comes to something a little more specialized ( as opposed to 10 Richard Seymour 8 x 10's as an example , or any current player really ), items that a younger less educated collector may buy thinking he caught a break and down the line somewhere passing it on or re-selling it, then people who know better- and if you saw any of these items you know better! - bear due dilligence to run that cheating worm down the road. Let them try another line of counterfitting because that's all this is. A personal liscense to print money. Dollar Bills Yo. I sent him an email and called him on it and my next mail is to ebay unless he pulls these items he himself signed last Sunday. 42 years after Arnie Herber died. ps- Raiderguy this is in no way any negative reflection on you. Quite the opposite. It was forthright and decent of you to address this with the benefit of the doubt. >>
Collect HOF Autos and Anything Raiders.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
He also had greasy neale and turk edwards JSA stuff. I honestly think he doesn't know what he has. It sounds like he bought a local collection. The collection already had some jsa stuff and some loose odds and ends. My guess is the guy he bought it from had them rejected by jsa and pawned them off on tbair or whatever his name is. That'd be my guess.
Collect HOF Autos and Anything Raiders.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
Hey guys, I've been gone for a while but still check in frequently. I'm down to needing 30 Hall of Famers, with the following remaining:
Rod Woodson, Ralph Wilson, Bill Walsh, Norm Van Brocklin, Emmitt Smith, John Madden, Marv Levy, Tom Landry, Dick Butkus, Ed Sabol, Les Richter, Joe Carr, Guy Chamberlin, Jimmy Conzelman, Paddy Driscoll, Turk Edwards, Len Ford, Joe Guyon, Curly Lambeau, Hugh Ray, Dan Reeves, Fritz Pollard, Pete Henry, Bill Hewitt, George Marshall, George Allen, Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Vince Lombardi, Walt Kiesling
Obviously some of these are easy to come by, but many of the toughest ones remain. If anybody has any of these they want to sell I would be interested, my email address is mlee2587@gmail.com.
I was also interested in knowing what your single favorite piece is, whether card, document, memorabilia, or other!
Collecting Pro Football Hall of Fame Autographs: (238/267)
<< <i>Hey guys, I've been gone for a while but still check in frequently. I'm down to needing 30 Hall of Famers, with the following remaining:
Rod Woodson, Ralph Wilson, Bill Walsh, Norm Van Brocklin, Emmitt Smith, John Madden, Marv Levy, Tom Landry, Dick Butkus, Ed Sabol, Les Richter, Joe Carr, Guy Chamberlin, Jimmy Conzelman, Paddy Driscoll, Turk Edwards, Len Ford, Joe Guyon, Curly Lambeau, Hugh Ray, Dan Reeves, Fritz Pollard, Pete Henry, Bill Hewitt, George Marshall, George Allen, Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Vince Lombardi, Walt Kiesling
Obviously some of these are easy to come by, but many of the toughest ones remain. If anybody has any of these they want to sell I would be interested, my email address is mlee2587@gmail.com.
I was also interested in knowing what your single favorite piece is, whether card, document, memorabilia, or other! >>
Believe it or not, I was thinking that same thought Matt. Only I was actually going to ask for peoples FIVE favorite INDIVIDUAL items. Therefore, I can NOT use my Goal Line Art GOLD set as an item, because, it is, in fact 260 DIFFERENT items. For me, counting down from #5 to # 1, my top 5 items in my collection are : # 5 ) My John McNally 3 x 5 card. Unlined. Very White card. But what makes it special, is the way he signed it. I have never seen another like it. Approx. 1/3 of the way down the card, (lengthwise, of course ) he signed John V. McNally Then about 2/3 of the way down the card, he signed Johnny Blood I have seen many cards signed John V. McNally, or signed Johnny Blood McNally, but I haven't seen One card signed John V. McNally AND Johnny Blood on the same card. Bought it from a memorabilia/autograph collector/dealer from Michigan by the name of Larry Taylor. # 4 ) My Alex Wojciechowicz autograph. I won it on Ebay from Mark. ( CFHOF ) It was signed in March 1938 while Alex was at Fordham University. Why so special, other than the fact it was signed BEFORE he started his hall of Fame career? Because of HOW he signed it. ALEXANDER Wojciechowicz I have yet to talk to any dealer ANYWHERE that has ever seen an ALEXANDER Wojciechowicz autograph. # 3 ) My Len Ford autograph. It is his 1956 player contract with the Cleveland Browns. Signed in blue ballpoint pen, Leonard Guy Ford Jr. Also has Bert Bell and Paul Brown. Got this from my friend , Rod. # 2 ) My Jim Thorpe autograph. A signed business card for "The Jim Thorpe Supper Club and Casino" Card itself is yellow, signed in blue ballpoint pen. Have only talked to one other dealer ( Darren Backhaus....Livehorn / PSADNAforsale ) that has ever seen any of these cards, but the couple that Darren saw were NOT signed. The only drawback is that it is personalized. Also bought this from Rod. # 1 ) My Walt Kiesling autograph. Was recently posted on here, so you can understand why that is my # 1. Got it on Ebay from a collector/dealer from Texas.
Since I have learned how to post pictures on FACEBOOK, can someone PM me simple instructions on how to post them here. I will try to start posting pictures. Also, my list WILL be changing, but I want to post a picture of it ( when I learn how ) with no explanation. Can some others PLEASE post THEIR list of top 5. Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
My favorite piece is a chef's hat from my Grandmother's scrapbook that was signed in 1929 by the NY Giants on a road trip to Chicago and includes LeRoy "Andy" Andrews, Cliff Ashburn, Glenn Campbell, Les Caywood, Tiny Feather, Ray Flaherty, Benny Friedman, Jack Hagerty, Rob't Howard, John Edward Lenz, John "Jack" Mara, Tim Mara, Harry March, Daniel McMullen, Saul Mielziner, Lyle Munn, Bill Owen, Steve Owen, Tony Plansky, Leonard Sedbrook, "Snitz" Snyder, Vincent Treanor, Vincent Jr Treanor, Fay "Mule" Wilson, Joe Wostoupal
Comments
I have an extra PSA/DNA slabbed Christman. If you are interested, send me an e-mail and I can send over a scan. I tried to message you, but I think your messages are turned off. Thanks.
Ken
kshuck@ea.com
Finally took the time and joined.
Tony
<< <i> Rev Moran have the program with your fathers signature on it.
Tony >>
Is that a team signed 1933 Giants program? Ron Gordon sent me a photocopy of a 1933 program he once owned, which was a big help because my father signed things differently back then.
Been a while. Glad you finally took the time to join. Great bunch of people on this site with some AMAZING items. Here is what I am still looking for as far as Football Hall of Fame Game tickets go:
I still need a full, not torn, what would be considered at least an "8" unused ticket for the
1978 Philadelphia / Miami
I have a ticket, but am looking to upgrade to a full, not torn, what would be considered at least an "8" unused ticket for the
1963 Pittsburgh / Cleveland
1964 Baltimore / Pittsburgh
1965 Washington / Detroit
1975 Cincinatti / Washington
1979 Oakland / Dallas
1981 Cleveland / Atlanta
1984 Seattle / Tampa Bay
1986 New England / St. Louis
1987 San Francisco / Kansas City
1988 Cincinatti / L.A. Rams
1991 Detroit / Denver
1993 L.A. Raiders/ Green Bay
2002 N.Y. Giants / Houston
I have a ticket to every other game from 1962 up, in what would be considered NM/Mint condition. If anyone can help me out with this list, it would be Greatly appreciated !!!
63
64
65
81
82
86
87
89
I have the complete set but I'm looking to upgrade the above to non torn full tickets or full stubs.
1. Andy Bershak
2. Bill Daddio
3. Al Lassman
4. Cas Myslinski
5. Don Zimmerman
Thanks.
Mark
Here is another that just went on ebay. Jack Bighead 3x5 - what a name. Sold for $1!!!! I can't believe I missed it! Did anyone here get it?
Currency Wants: Any note with serial number 00000731
Currency Wants: Any note with serial number 00000731
I'm going to vent here...
One thing that gets under my skin regarding this hobby is when people who present themselves as "dealers" purchase collectibles on well-advertised collector auctions (RR, RE, Lelands, Heritage, etc) and then put them up on their website a week later.....for 6-7 times what they paid. Now I understand the need to make a profit and I'm all for capitalism, but 6-7 times what they paid is excessive. Especially when those pieces are acquired from a well-advertised collector’s auction. Now acquiring a Turk Edwards autograph from an estate sale for $5 is not what I am referring to. A well-respected collectors auction will establish the current market value of a collectible. To then turn it around for that much of a markup is unethical. Clearly their customers are not informed collectors, which in my mind makes it even worse.
What are your thoughts?
Mark
<< <i>Hey guys,
I'm going to vent here...
One thing that gets under my skin regarding this hobby is when people who present themselves as "dealers" purchase collectibles on well-advertised collector auctions (RR, RE, Lelands, Heritage, etc) and then put them up on their website a week later.....for 6-7 times what they paid. Now I understand the need to make a profit and I'm all for capitalism, but 6-7 times what they paid is excessive. Especially when those pieces are acquired from a well-advertised collector’s auction. Now acquiring a Turk Edwards autograph from an estate sale for $5 is not what I am referring to. A well-respected collectors auction will establish the current market value of a collectible. To then turn it around for that much of a markup is unethical. Clearly their customers are not informed collectors, which in my mind makes it even worse.
What are your thoughts?
Mark >>
I agree to disagree, but agree that it has to be taken in context. If you are buying up lots at auctions, breaking them up and getting them into collector's hands who possibly didn't know about them and are making a profit - I see nothing wrong with this. Anyone watch "American Pickers?" They find junk no one wants - restore it (or get it into the hands of those that enjoy restoring it - and turn someone's garbage into gold. It's the same concept. I recently bought a lot of 1997 UD Legends autographs and broke the 86 apart to help collectors complete their set. I made about $350 on my $1,400 investment. I don't feel wrong about that at all, and I know they are grateful to me for helping them out. Of course I sold them at below ebay prices, but the concept remains the same.
Now if I bought them at $1,400 and tried to sell a Dan Fouts autograph for $100 that usually sells for $20 to a kid and I'm obviously taking advantage of him then yes, of course it's wrong. If I'm asking $100 on ebay and someone hits the BIN because it's the last card he needs for the set and there isn't another one should I feel bad about that? Absolutely not IMO. The market is driven by what someone is willing to pay. If someone is willing to pay it - and you aren't deliberately taking advantage of someone - what's wrong with making a profit on an investment you made? And that's exactly what it is - if you buy auctions and sell them it's a business. If you were in it to break even you wouldn't last long. I view it as getting collectables into the hands of collectors who treasure them and maybe wouldn't have been able to find it. If someone is willing to pay it; why would you do anything but try to maximize your profits? If they don't think it's a good deal for them, they will counter offer you until they find a range they are comfortable at.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
<< <i>I take Mark's point to be that when a well advertised auction establishes a market price for an item, if you then try and sell it for 400% or 500% or more, you're looking to hook a sucker. If you're a dealer, show your knowledge of the market. Some dealers I know regularly ask for 200% of what I think is the auction market rate, but that's ok by me - they are doing this for a living and they are willing to hold on to their stock for the right buyer at the right time. And if it takes too long they often come down - but I don't get the impression they are waiting for the buyer with no knowledge of the market to come along and take their bait. >>
To be 100% honest I didn't know about other online auction houses until about 6 months ago. All of my collecting came from ebay, and part of that is my ignorance. But if you get it from one medium that has, say 10,000 potential buyers into a medium that has 100 million worldwide your odds of finding a die hard collector increases.
So again, it needs to be in context. Are you buying a Jim Thorpe autograph for $800 at an auction house and putting it on ebay for $2,400 OBO? If you can find a die hard Jim Thorpe collector that has never seen an 8x10 of him with a Governor of your home state or something like that and it has "Property of Jim Thorpe" on the back it may be more meaningful to some collector for whatever reason it is. Anytime you expose yourself to 100 or 1,000x the potential buyers as where you got it from, your ability to reach that one collector increases. And that's all it takes - one buyer has the ability to drive the market when you have oddball items.
Now if it's an uncertified Hank Aaron TTM card you got from an auction house and are selling it at PSA certified auto prices, then I completely agree with you. I think it just depends on what kind of items we are talking about.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
So what is a fair markup? When I owned a sports card store (remember those?) we bought at 50% of book and sold at 80-100% of book value. So roughly a 100% (2x) markup. That was the industry standard. Even as Rev points out...200% markup would be acceptable. But again, I am referring to pieces only acquired through collector’s auctions where the market value for that particular piece has been established.
Most reputable dealers don't even buy pieces on these auction sites for that very reason. Why compete against your customers? A dealer should be looking for pieces through other avenues to maximize their profits.
Good discussion....any other thoughts??
<< <i>Raidgerguy - I think it is irrelevant of the item. Those who claim to be "dealers" are held to a higher standard than the average collector. They are viewed by many to be the experts in that field. Now I am not referring to items acquired below market value (estate finds, large lots, inheritance, etc). What I am specifically referring to are pieces acquired from a well-advertised collector’s auction that are immediately turned around for 6-7 times what the market dictates. So for your Jim Thorpe example....say that autograph sold for $800 at auction. For a dealer to then acquire that piece and sell it on his website for $5600 is unethical. People look to dealers so they won't get ripped off...yet they are.
So what is a fair markup? When I owned a sports card store (remember those?) we bought at 50% of book and sold at 80-100% of book value. So roughly a 100% (2x) markup. That was the industry standard. Even as Rev points out...200% markup would be acceptable. But again, I am referring to pieces only acquired through collector’s auctions where the market value for that particular piece has been established.
Most reputable dealers don't even buy pieces on these auction sites for that very reason. Why compete against your customers? A dealer should be looking for pieces through other avenues to maximize their profits.
Good discussion....any other thoughts?? >>
All you say is true and are legitimate points, but there is a context to everything. I know someone who won 10 Richard Seymour signed photos for $45. He is planning on selling them for $30 each. While this is well below what ebay is he stands to make $260 (roughly) on a $45 investment. Is that wrong, or should he be limited to selling them for $10 each since he only paid $5 each?
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
<< <i>[All you say is true and are legitimate points, but there is a context to everything. I know someone who won 10 Richard Seymour signed photos for $45. He is planning on selling them for $30 each. While this is well below what ebay is he stands to make $260 (roughly) on a $45 investment. Is that wrong, or should he be limited to selling them for $10 each since he only paid $5 each? >>
That would not bother me at all - seems fair enough. And I think ebay auctions are sometimes wild cards, not real market indicators. Sometimes there are even bargains with the big auction houses. One time a fellow collecter outbid me in a Mastro (or similar) auction for the first two Hall of Fame programs (1963 & 1964) signed by many players and their presenters - I stopped bidding at $2,100, but then since he only needed the 1964 program he put the 1963 up on eBay and I spent about $2,000 just on that - I was happy to get it and thought that was a good deal for both of us - if he had put up the 1963 program with a BIN of $4,000 or $6,000 I would not have bought it and felt it was price gouging.
BTW the autographs on the 1963 program were Sammy Baugh, Pete Calac, James Conzelman, Jim Crowley, Red Grange, Joe Guyon, George Halas, Mel Hein, Cal Hubbard, Don Hutson, Curley Lambeau, Frank Lausche, Elmer Layden, John "Jack" Mara, David McDonald, John Blood McNally, Don Miller, Rip Miller, Art Modell, Bronko Naugrski, Ernie Nevers, Harry Robb, Art Rooney, Earl Schreiber, Toots Shor, Harry Stuhldreher, Dan Tehan, Byron White, and Gene Woodling
Back in 2007 there was a small group of 13 autographs up for auction on RR. I was outbid the night the auction ended for a hammer price of $770 (including buyers premium). The next month, 9 of those pieces were up on a dealers website for a total amount of....$7520! Four years later all but one of those pieces are still on that dealers website. This dealer isn't trying to sell these pieces to an educated collector. They are hoping for a sucker to come along and pay an absurd price. Now without question this is legal....but is it ethical? This guy is promoting himself as an expert in the field and people go to his website in the hopes of getting a fair price. Is he possibly taking advantage of that position? Clearly opinions vary.
By the way Rev...that sounds like a nice program!!
Cheers
Mark
However....this is just too good to pass up sharing with my fellow collectors. Forgive my deviation but there , right now on ebay, I offer the exact opposite of the current topic.
Collectors driving down the value of higher end HOF autographs by selling at quite reasonable prices ! Authentic ,too!
It says so!
Search Jim Thorpe, Johnny Blood , or Jim Finks.
I especially like when you view all 5 items for sale top to bottom....
This guy definitely was looking for a sucker but am I to feel bad that I purchased a signed PSA slabbed Benny Friedman 3x5" for $10 because the guy spelled his name as Freedman??? Or the signed 1969 HOF Induction Program cover that I purchased for $20 that was advertised as signed by Joe Perry, but it was also signed by Nomellini, Stautner, Turk Edwards, and Greasy Neale. Or the many signed HOF class envelopes because there weren't advertised correctly. An Example is the Class of 1980 w/Presenters signed by Adderly, Deacon Jones, Lilly, Otto and also signed by Ewbank, Willie Davis, Tom Brookshier, and a couple of other guys named George Allen and Al Davis that I picked up for $51.
I guess it really boils down to the old saying "buyer beware". I remember listening to a radio personality several years ago when he was telling a story about a criminal and he made the statement that 50% of the people wake up everyday trying to screw the other 50% out of something.....there is a lot of truth in that statement if you think about it!
<< <i>
<< <i>Hello All,
Reese, could you do me a favor, and post a link , or photo, of the Walt Kiesling letter from the May 6, 2006 auction. Item # 19282. It came in todays mail. I had to pay an extra $50.00 to help cover the listing / Paypal fees. My final price was $1,650.00 , but to me totally worth it. I have only seen 4 or 5 Kiesling autographs, and this is far and away the best of the few that I have seen. I still am finding it hard to believe that It's actually mine. It will be in it's new home ( my bank safe deposit box ) this coming Wednesday. Thanks in advance Reese.
Rocke >>
Here you go Rocke. This is a beautiful document and signature. I'm very jealous! Congrats on a great addition
Well, until now, I have kept this little secret to myself, but with the posts over the last few days, this seems like the time to "let the cat out of the bag", so to speak. I consider this item, one of my top 5 "prizes" in my collection, but have not told the story of how I came to buy it. As we all know ( or SHOULD ) know, Walt's last name is spelled K-I-E-S-L-I-N-G. Only, when the seller listed it on Ebay, he spelled it K-E-I-S-L-I-N-G. By transposing the E & I, it didn't show up on anyone's watch list. It was listed with a BIN or best offer...... I knew what he had paid for it in the Heritage auction approx. 4 years earlier, so I made an offer a little above that, hoping he would take it, and to my delight, he did !!!
The letter did not have a Letter of Authenticity with it, but I knew that PSA had OK'D it for the Heritage Auction. I have since turned it in to PSA, and now have a full LOA from PSA for it. Feel like I got a SUPER GREAT item at a SUPER GREAT price. Isn't that part of the fun of this hobby?
Rocke
<< <i>I could not find the Thorpe autograph you were talking about, but there was a signed Pop Warner letter from History Direct for $7,999 - I guess the three page handwritten signed letter I bought on eBay from Pop to James Bradshaw where he says "leaving Stanford was the worst mistake of my life" was a bargain - it went for $199.95 >>
Hey Mike, looks like someone made an offer of $125.00 for the Thorpe, and the seller took it. Look up Ebay item # 280659826937.
<< <i>I wanted to offer this on here before I put it on e-bay. A few months ago I was able to purchase the remaining inventory of signed football cards from a man who would conduct occasional private signings with Sammy Baugh. I purchased the remaining 50 cards and had them authenticated and encapsulated by PSA/DNA (Blue Flip). The breakdown of cards is as follows:
1950 Bowman Reprint – 1
1981 TCMA Greats – 4
1988 Swell Greats – 2
1989 Swell Greats – 1
1990 Swell Greats – 1
1991 Enor HOF – 3
1994 Ted Williams Company – 4
2000 Fleer GoG - 6
2000 Upper Deck Legends Millennium – 3
2000 Quantum Leaf – 1
2000 Donruss Gridiron Kings – 1
This would be a great lot for someone who sets up at shows. Just looking to get my costs back on this purchase. At this time only looking to get rid of all 50 at one time. Would consider trades for some of the remaining football HOFers I need. PM me if you are interested, thanks, Tim >>
I sold half of these, looking to get rid of the rest individually. Let me know if anyone is interested, price is $25 paypal delivered. I could do a little better on multiple cards. List is updated.
I agree with you to a point. As most here know, I sold some autographs recently. Some, are now in the hands of a dealer that I won't mention but I'm sure you can figure it out (or you can PM me). Now, he marked up the prices from 10x to 50x what he paid me for them. I really can't say anything negative about it though. I am not sure why dealers do this since there is no way that someone is going to pay his high prices. It looks like he did sell a few that were marked up 10x what he paid me, but I think I only saw that 1 or 2 times. Most are and probably will be sitting there for years. Do they wait for suckers to come along? I guess.
It is pretty easy for all of us here, since we are always searching and looking for rare autographs to see when something sells in an auction for $x and we then see it on a dealers web site for $X times 50 or more, that we should probably stay away. If one of us really wanted it in the first place, we probably would have bid.
Lately, I am more upset about another topic. How many people here have the 'Total Football' Encyclopedia? When this first came out I was blown away by all the information. Well fast forward to recent times and the book is basically a joke. Well, I guess the writers/researchers for the book did give us a base of information but the amount of mistakes, - wrong birth dates, death dates, names, nicknames and middle names is amazing. They basically just put information about a certain player in the book that "seemed" to fit or they did it knowing it was faulty information just so they wouldn't have a blank space. I suppose they figured nobody would ever check their work. There have been literally hundreds (I lost count) of errors. Sad for something that many people figured was researched by 'football historians'.
The best example of this would be the listing of Fay 'Mule' Wilson - they have "HIM" dying in 1991. The person with that information is a female (The first female to play pro-football perhaps?). The real Fay Wilson died in 1937. There are hundreds more...
Jim
Currency Wants: Any note with serial number 00000731
<< <i>I see that Thorpe "auto" now - between that and the Kiesling below I'd say we covered the good, the bad, and the ugly - only the Kiesling is more than good, it's great! And the price was mighty fine - a deal like that every once in a while keeps it exciting - glad you posted it. >>
I was actually the one who bought the Thorpe. I wanted to get more information from the seller and make sure no one got screwed. When I messaged him and told him it wasn't genuine he got back to me right away. They are just getting started, and I gave them some advice and how I knew they weren't genuine. He took the McNally auction down immediately. I gave him some advice going forward and let him know what kinds of things to look for. He bought some autos from a local guy and was trying to resell them not knowing they were fake.
That being said I did pay for the Thorpe. For my troubles he is sending me JSA certified George Halas and Dutch Clark index cards. Both needed for my HOF PC and well worth the $125 in place of the "Thorpe." Again proving a point that everything needs to be taken in context and its not always what it seems. There are some good ones still out there.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
A dealer is someone who promotes themselves as an expert in the hobby, obtains a steady income from the hobby, has a customer base, etc. Examples include Rich Altman, Albersheim, Kevin Keating, etc. I believe an honest dealer should provide authentic merchandise at a fair price. They are considered the experts in the field. People who are not as informed in the hobby frequently turn to this specific group for their collecting needs. Some of these collectors are unaware of the current market trends and look to these dealers for a fair price. When a dealer takes advantage of that position and charges 6-7x market value for a piece, I believe that is unethical.
By the way...Ebay rarely determines the market value of an item. It is not considered a high end auction house (like RR, RE, Lelands, Huggins, Hunt, etc). Sometimes the buyer makes out on a great deal at auction, sometimes the seller does. Nothing wrong with that. That is what makes our hobby exciting. Great finds are made every day on ebay (like the Friedman or Kiesling). However there is still a set market value for those pieces....one that dealers are well aware of. I feel charging 6-7x market value (remember market value is NOT necessarily what you paid) is wrong.
On a lighter note....have a great Easter week everyone.
All the best
Mark
<< <i>Hey guys,
I'm going to vent here...
One thing that gets under my skin regarding this hobby is when people who present themselves as "dealers" purchase collectibles on well-advertised collector auctions (RR, RE, Lelands, Heritage, etc) and then put them up on their website a week later.....for 6-7 times what they paid. Now I understand the need to make a profit and I'm all for capitalism, but 6-7 times what they paid is excessive. Especially when those pieces are acquired from a well-advertised collector’s auction. Now acquiring a Turk Edwards autograph from an estate sale for $5 is not what I am referring to. A well-respected collectors auction will establish the current market value of a collectible. To then turn it around for that much of a markup is unethical. Clearly their customers are not informed collectors, which in my mind makes it even worse.
What are your thoughts?
Mark >>
Hey Mark, I understand exactly what ( and who ) you are talking about, and I also do NOT like it. We have ALL bought an item at one price, knowing we got a good deal, and then a couple weeks, months, or even years later, sell the item and make some money on that item. This is a touchy subject for me, as I have bought a few items from one of these people when they have run auctions on Ebay, and have talked a number of times with another dealer who does the same thing. I also strongly suspect that a couple of these autograph dealers DO read this thread. And although everything I am saying about this subject, on this post, right now is either fact, or my opinion, NONE of it is wrong. It also seems that a couple of these major dealers are also working together. Two examples : There is a signed Dan Reeves 8 x 10 photo that the winning bid was $1026.00 and is now for sale for $2,500.00 on TWO DIFFERENT websites. There is also a signed Fritz Pollard 8 x 10 that sold ( both of these items were in the March RRAuction ) for $1,149.00 and is now for sale on the same two websites for $7,500.00 !!!!!!!! My guess, one ( or probably both ) of these dealers will shortly have the Steve Owen 8 x 10 that just sold in the most recent RRAuction. I guess it would be nice to have a customer base that probably has no idea that there is such as a thing as sports memorabilia auction sites, or they would buy it themselves, instead of paying VERY high prices to what amounts to be a middle-man.
Mark, what can you do ? Is it ethical ???? If there are people that are VERY rich, VERY lazy, VERY stupid, and have a " I want it, and I want it now " attitude, then those people deserve to, basically, get ripped off. Like I said, it would be nice to have a customer base like that.
<< <i>
<< <i>I see that Thorpe "auto" now - between that and the Kiesling below I'd say we covered the good, the bad, and the ugly - only the Kiesling is more than good, it's great! And the price was mighty fine - a deal like that every once in a while keeps it exciting - glad you posted it. >>
I was actually the one who bought the Thorpe. I wanted to get more information from the seller and make sure no one got screwed. When I messaged him and told him it wasn't genuine he got back to me right away. They are just getting started, and I gave them some advice and how I knew they weren't genuine. He took the McNally auction down immediately. I gave him some advice going forward and let him know what kinds of things to look for. He bought some autos from a local guy and was trying to resell them not knowing they were fake.
That being said I did pay for the Thorpe. For my troubles he is sending me JSA certified George Halas and Dutch Clark index cards. Both needed for my HOF PC and well worth the $125 in place of the "Thorpe." Again proving a point that everything needs to be taken in context and its not always what it seems. There are some good ones still out there. >>
Hi All,
Well have you seen the listing that the Thorpe, Blood seller has listed now on eBay? There eBay ID is tbair94. The item I am talking about is eBay#280663601112. It is a NFL quarterback book signed by a unbelievable list of Hall of Famers including: Herber, Driscoll, Unitas, Dutch Clark, Friedman, Luckman, Conzelman and I could go on and on. 21 in total. Red flags go up all around on this seller including listing items for only 3 days, bad photos many to blurry to make out etc.. Many of the autographs in the book that you can make out are garbage. Now maybe the seller does not understand he is selling items that are not genuine like raider guy said, However, it still does not make it right. Any thoughts???
Ed
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I see that Thorpe "auto" now - between that and the Kiesling below I'd say we covered the good, the bad, and the ugly - only the Kiesling is more than good, it's great! And the price was mighty fine - a deal like that every once in a while keeps it exciting - glad you posted it. >>
I was actually the one who bought the Thorpe. I wanted to get more information from the seller and make sure no one got screwed. When I messaged him and told him it wasn't genuine he got back to me right away. They are just getting started, and I gave them some advice and how I knew they weren't genuine. He took the McNally auction down immediately. I gave him some advice going forward and let him know what kinds of things to look for. He bought some autos from a local guy and was trying to resell them not knowing they were fake.
That being said I did pay for the Thorpe. For my troubles he is sending me JSA certified George Halas and Dutch Clark index cards. Both needed for my HOF PC and well worth the $125 in place of the "Thorpe." Again proving a point that everything needs to be taken in context and its not always what it seems. There are some good ones still out there. >>
Well, it was pretty generous of Raiderguy to take a bullet on the Thorpe. Hey, maybe, right? Maybe it was real and he caught a deal. But it isn't and he didn't. I'm curious if he has recieved his JSA certified Halas & Dutch.
I absolutely don't buy that this seller is guileless re: these cards. He may have played it off as such, but that was just to shake a dog off his tail. This is straight up fraud ! Selling a few higher end items on short auction with a sh***y scan and as is Text. 5-10 cards a week at 1C or so per...adds up quick. Fast cash and list another few with the same story.
There are serious collectors on this site, and most of us shake our heads when we come across inevitable fakes. Folks, that's a battle never to be won.
But.
In this regard, when it comes to something a little more specialized ( as opposed to 10 Richard Seymour 8 x 10's as an example , or any current player really ), items that a younger less educated collector may buy thinking he caught a break and down the line somewhere passing it on or re-selling it, then people who know better- and if you saw any of these items you know better! - bear due dilligence to run that cheating worm down the road. Let them try another line of counterfitting because that's all this is. A personal liscense to print money.
Dollar Bills Yo.
I sent him an email and called him on it and my next mail is to ebay unless he pulls these items he himself signed last Sunday. 42 years after Arnie Herber died.
ps- Raiderguy this is in no way any negative reflection on you. Quite the opposite. It was forthright and decent of you to address this with the benefit of the doubt.
I to have seen these Auctions that this guy has put up & at first I thought he just didn’t know better… as the prices where WAY off & the signatures where obviously fakes to people who know the hobby…
But now I just noticed that he’s now selling under different user names, eBay ID tbair94 & richiel1127. Its obviously the same guy… the auctions are worded exactly the same & the same blurry distant pictures. Now this guy def knows what he is selling… he knows what people are looking for, he has a Fritz Pollard signature for $149 up right now… I wish!
Now everyone on here is educated & knows what is real or not (probably better than PSA & them)… but he’s not going after the educated people…
people like this jacka** get on my nerves…
Hope everyone has a great weekend!
Reese
HOF RC Auto Set
1955 Topps Football AA
1950 Bowman Football
1951 Bowman Football
1952 Bowman Football
ebay user- Jolt333
Please be sure to check out my auctions!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I see that Thorpe "auto" now - between that and the Kiesling below I'd say we covered the good, the bad, and the ugly - only the Kiesling is more than good, it's great! And the price was mighty fine - a deal like that every once in a while keeps it exciting - glad you posted it. >>
I was actually the one who bought the Thorpe. I wanted to get more information from the seller and make sure no one got screwed. When I messaged him and told him it wasn't genuine he got back to me right away. They are just getting started, and I gave them some advice and how I knew they weren't genuine. He took the McNally auction down immediately. I gave him some advice going forward and let him know what kinds of things to look for. He bought some autos from a local guy and was trying to resell them not knowing they were fake.
That being said I did pay for the Thorpe. For my troubles he is sending me JSA certified George Halas and Dutch Clark index cards. Both needed for my HOF PC and well worth the $125 in place of the "Thorpe." Again proving a point that everything needs to be taken in context and its not always what it seems. There are some good ones still out there. >>
Well, it was pretty generous of Raiderguy to take a bullet on the Thorpe. Hey, maybe, right? Maybe it was real and he caught a deal. But it isn't and he didn't. I'm curious if he has recieved his JSA certified Halas & Dutch.
I absolutely don't buy that this seller is guileless re: these cards. He may have played it off as such, but that was just to shake a dog off his tail. This is straight up fraud ! Selling a few higher end items on short auction with a sh***y scan and as is Text. 5-10 cards a week at 1C or so per...adds up quick. Fast cash and list another few with the same story.
There are serious collectors on this site, and most of us shake our heads when we come across inevitable fakes. Folks, that's a battle never to be won.
But.
In this regard, when it comes to something a little more specialized ( as opposed to 10 Richard Seymour 8 x 10's as an example , or any current player really ), items that a younger less educated collector may buy thinking he caught a break and down the line somewhere passing it on or re-selling it, then people who know better- and if you saw any of these items you know better! - bear due dilligence to run that cheating worm down the road. Let them try another line of counterfitting because that's all this is. A personal liscense to print money.
Dollar Bills Yo.
I sent him an email and called him on it and my next mail is to ebay unless he pulls these items he himself signed last Sunday. 42 years after Arnie Herber died.
ps- Raiderguy this is in no way any negative reflection on you. Quite the opposite. It was forthright and decent of you to address this with the benefit of the doubt. >>
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
<< <i>Reese I sent you a PM >>
pm back
HOF RC Auto Set
1955 Topps Football AA
1950 Bowman Football
1951 Bowman Football
1952 Bowman Football
ebay user- Jolt333
Please be sure to check out my auctions!
Rod Woodson, Ralph Wilson, Bill Walsh, Norm Van Brocklin, Emmitt Smith, John Madden, Marv Levy, Tom Landry, Dick Butkus, Ed Sabol, Les Richter, Joe Carr, Guy Chamberlin, Jimmy Conzelman, Paddy Driscoll, Turk Edwards, Len Ford, Joe Guyon, Curly Lambeau, Hugh Ray, Dan Reeves, Fritz Pollard, Pete Henry, Bill Hewitt, George Marshall, George Allen, Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Vince Lombardi, Walt Kiesling
Obviously some of these are easy to come by, but many of the toughest ones remain. If anybody has any of these they want to sell I would be interested, my email address is mlee2587@gmail.com.
I was also interested in knowing what your single favorite piece is, whether card, document, memorabilia, or other!
<< <i>Hey guys, I've been gone for a while but still check in frequently. I'm down to needing 30 Hall of Famers, with the following remaining:
Rod Woodson, Ralph Wilson, Bill Walsh, Norm Van Brocklin, Emmitt Smith, John Madden, Marv Levy, Tom Landry, Dick Butkus, Ed Sabol, Les Richter, Joe Carr, Guy Chamberlin, Jimmy Conzelman, Paddy Driscoll, Turk Edwards, Len Ford, Joe Guyon, Curly Lambeau, Hugh Ray, Dan Reeves, Fritz Pollard, Pete Henry, Bill Hewitt, George Marshall, George Allen, Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Vince Lombardi, Walt Kiesling
Obviously some of these are easy to come by, but many of the toughest ones remain. If anybody has any of these they want to sell I would be interested, my email address is mlee2587@gmail.com.
I was also interested in knowing what your single favorite piece is, whether card, document, memorabilia, or other! >>
Believe it or not, I was thinking that same thought Matt. Only I was actually going to ask for peoples FIVE favorite INDIVIDUAL items. Therefore, I can NOT use my Goal Line Art GOLD set as an item, because, it is, in fact 260 DIFFERENT items. For me, counting down from #5 to # 1, my top 5 items in my collection are :
# 5 ) My John McNally 3 x 5 card. Unlined. Very White card. But what makes it special, is the way he signed it. I have never seen another like it. Approx. 1/3 of the way down the card, (lengthwise, of course ) he signed
John V. McNally
Then about 2/3 of the way down the card, he signed
Johnny Blood
I have seen many cards signed John V. McNally, or signed Johnny Blood McNally, but I haven't seen One card signed John V. McNally AND Johnny Blood on the same card. Bought it from a memorabilia/autograph collector/dealer from Michigan by the name of Larry Taylor.
# 4 ) My Alex Wojciechowicz autograph. I won it on Ebay from Mark. ( CFHOF ) It was signed in March 1938 while Alex was at Fordham University. Why so special, other than the fact it was signed BEFORE he started his hall of Fame career? Because of HOW he signed it.
ALEXANDER Wojciechowicz
I have yet to talk to any dealer ANYWHERE that has ever seen an ALEXANDER Wojciechowicz autograph.
# 3 ) My Len Ford autograph. It is his 1956 player contract with the Cleveland Browns. Signed in blue ballpoint pen, Leonard Guy Ford Jr. Also has Bert Bell and Paul Brown. Got this from my friend , Rod.
# 2 ) My Jim Thorpe autograph. A signed business card for "The Jim Thorpe Supper Club and Casino" Card itself is yellow, signed in blue ballpoint pen. Have only talked to one other dealer ( Darren Backhaus....Livehorn / PSADNAforsale ) that has ever seen any of these cards, but the couple that Darren saw were NOT signed. The only drawback is that it is personalized. Also bought this from Rod.
# 1 ) My Walt Kiesling autograph. Was recently posted on here, so you can understand why that is my # 1. Got it on Ebay from a collector/dealer from Texas.
Since I have learned how to post pictures on FACEBOOK, can someone PM me simple instructions on how to post them here. I will try to start posting pictures. Also, my list WILL be changing, but I want to post a picture of it ( when I learn how ) with no explanation.
Can some others PLEASE post THEIR list of top 5.
Rocke