You guys have to remember - it's their OPINION. If they aren't 100% sure it's real the err on the side of being conservative. JSA makes their fair share of mistakes as well - like authenticating a chimps signature from a chimp who had passed on long ago. I have a very specific reason why I trust PSA over JSA (which I choose not to share in regards to a rare auto I got certified from PSA that I knew was real but was worried about being able to get it passed). Because of that one item I choose to prefer PSA over JSA. You say you like JSA better - but facts are facts. It's easier to get an item to pass JSA certification than it is PSA certification. As a seller that makes you like JSA better. As a collector - it makes me prefer PSA and no matter what you guys say you'll never convince me otherwise. I also like the holders better. They are half as thick as the JSA slabs and when you are talking real estate in a safe that's precious space.
Collect HOF Autos and Anything Raiders.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
If you go by whats on hauls of shame it wouldn't be good for jsa or psa, but none the less it is shame that these "opionions" are a neccesity to maintain any value you put in your collection, even for collectors who want insurance purposes ect. not even just sellers and you sometimes have to pay $100 and up. A company needs to come along with legitamate non greed driven collectors as authenticators offering a flat rate on every item say 25-35 each and offering store credit on all items that fail so the consumer doesn't feel jipped when they make the mistake and theres no conflict of interest. I understand your point of view Derrick as I am going off one incident myself like you are, but when Psa's caution costs you hundreds on pieces you got done yourself and mock you as buying bad stuff and nearly drives you out of the hobby it is not a good thing! Considering us younger collectors are drying up when we realize the money you need to pursue autographs of these hall of famers its tough! I once showed my only collecting friend here in maryland my collection pull out a Thorpe 8x10 and he says "Thats nice but i bet my Clay Matthews is worth more...", I don't know if there are any other board members here on this hall of fame forum that are under 30? At the least how many people 30 or younger would drool over an Arnie Herber before Aaron Rodgers? Its a tough hobby sometimes that thrives on collectors respecting history of the game but history in general is dying in school systems because Johnny doesn't know calculus...if the costs of opionions decrease it would benefit everyone but untill they do id rather go with not only the guy who passes more items but treats us like we actually matter because I dont want to spend $280 like Rocke and getting a legitamate beautiful one of a kind item turned down, I can't afford to have that happen while paying for college the most I ever paid for a signature in my collection is $500 and that wasn't even a sports autograph, I mean $280 Thats almost half the cost of a whole college class! If it continues to be a monopoly and prices continue to raise for psa/jsa when your children are ready to sell the collection for thiere college education or you want to retire you have to hope me and maybe a small handfulls of others have our checkbooks ready! As every one else on the forum gets close to finishing off thiere sets then who is left to sell too if people can't justify spending hundreds on authenticating? Its a hobby first and buisness second , this is the best hobby there is I just am tired of people having to bend over backwords for these companys on legitamate items that were just about the only people who care about them, its hard to imagine a hobby started with envelopes and tickets to the games turned into a billion dollar industry, sometimes I think Blood bank Bill has the right idea
<< <i>If you go by whats on hauls of shame it wouldn't be good for jsa or psa, but none the less it is shame that these "opionions" are a neccesity to maintain any value you put in your collection, even for collectors who want insurance purposes ect. not even just sellers and you sometimes have to pay $100 and up. A company needs to come along with legitamate non greed driven collectors as authenticators offering a flat rate on every item say 25-35 each and offering store credit on all items that fail so the consumer doesn't feel jipped when they make the mistake and theres no conflict of interest. I understand your point of view Derrick as I am going off one incident myself like you are, but when Psa's caution costs you hundreds on pieces you got done yourself and mock you as buying bad stuff and nearly drives you out of the hobby it is not a good thing! Considering us younger collectors are drying up when we realize the money you need to pursue autographs of these hall of famers its tough! I once showed my only collecting friend here in maryland my collection pull out a Thorpe 8x10 and he says "Thats nice but i bet my Clay Matthews is worth more...", I don't know if there are any other board members here on this hall of fame forum that are under 30? At the least how many people 30 or younger would drool over an Arnie Herber before Aaron Rodgers? Its a tough hobby sometimes that thrives on collectors respecting history of the game but history in general is dying in school systems because Johnny doesn't know calculus...if the costs of opionions decrease it would benefit everyone but untill they do id rather go with not only the guy who passes more items but treats us like we actually matter because I dont want to spend $280 like Rocke and getting a legitamate beautiful one of a kind item turned down, I can't afford to have that happen while paying for college the most I ever paid for a signature in my collection is $500 and that wasn't even a sports autograph, I mean $280 Thats almost half the cost of a whole college class! If it continues to be a monopoly and prices continue to raise for psa/jsa when your children are ready to sell the collection for thiere college education or you want to retire you have to hope me and maybe a small handfulls of others have our checkbooks ready! As every one else on the forum gets close to finishing off thiere sets then who is left to sell too if people can't justify spending hundreds on authenticating? Its a hobby first and buisness second , this is the best hobby there is I just am tired of people having to bend over backwords for these companys on legitamate items that were just about the only people who care about them, its hard to imagine a hobby started with envelopes and tickets to the games turned into a billion dollar industry, sometimes I think Blood bank Bill has the right idea >>
To some of your points Nathan - I am 31. I got my first HOF autograph (Bud Grant at Scheels in Bismarck) when I was 6. I've been at it 25 years - mostly writing athletes when I was younger. Now - I am the sole provider of a family of 5. I work 5 different jobs (6 when I start teaching in the fall) to make sure they have everything they need/deserve. And even at that we still struggle almost every month to make it work. I am currently down to needing 5 signatures to have one of everyone in the HOF and I have $0 invested in my collection. My ENTIRE HOF PC is in PSA/DNA slabs. I have a flipping fund and I buy/sell stuff that I allow myself to dedicate to expanding my hobby. I would never take from my family to put it towards my hobby.
That being said - you can't run a legitimate company and offer a refund if you deem it unworthy. You'd have forgers doing nothing but submitting bad items because they know in the end it won't matter - they'll just get their money back. It's not about them being greedy - take a step back and think of the economincs. As a father of 3 and provider of 5 - and a collector who has $0 extra money to spend on the hobby I sure as hell wouldn't want it any different....
Collect HOF Autos and Anything Raiders.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
Cool down guys!!!! We are all in the same side here!!! LOL!!! After all their LOA's say it is our OPINION, so we can each one have our own opinion about some autographs in our collection, we all have great stuff, but we have all been fooled a couple of times too. It is part of the hobbie, after all we have to trust our own knowledge and rely on some of us to make sure we are making good desicions. PSA and JSA give opinions, we can also have our own and after all I am sure that one person can't be an expert in so many fields, I know there is a lot of different experts in each company but with so many names and different fields, it is easy to have mistakes
Good points Derrick, although i mentioned store credit not cash refund hopefully the forgerys would get turned down every time but then I digress, thats neat you have $0 in your collection thats pretty damn impresive and Im quite jealous! (: Cesar good point too, it is just an opionion and this is a fun hobby it's just good to debate a little bit every now and again todays one of those days especially with Chantilly coming up soon, We all have our prefrences! @Catman, I used Sgc too on an item for a cert because it was half the price as psa/jsa did your items pass from them?
<< <i>Good points Derrick, although i mentioned store credit not cash refund hopefully the forgerys would get turned down every time but then I digress, thats neat you have $0 in your collection thats pretty damn impresive and Im quite jealous! (: Cesar good point too, it is just an opionion and this is a fun hobby it's just good to debate a little bit every now and again todays one of those days especially with Chantilly coming up soon, We all have our prefrences! @Catman, I used Sgc too on an item for a cert because it was half the price as psa/jsa did your items pass from them? >>
It's hard work - but it's worth it. I love the hobby so for me flipping isn't a job - it's something I enjoy.
And I completely understand how frustrating it is to have stuff turned down. I've spent a few grand on gambles that didn't pan out. But that's part of the fun too - because it makes the treasures you find that much more meaningful. I just don't see a feasible solution to getting rid of it. You pay the fee for their opinoin - good or bad. But that's the main reason I started doing the bulk submissions - to get the $10 rate. That way it doesn't hurt as bad if it is rejected. I probably wouldn't have my collection encased if it wasn't for them allowing me to run the bulk specials.
Collect HOF Autos and Anything Raiders.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
It has been quiet for a while here, so you are right Nathan it is fun to have some debate, I have a couple of friends going to Chantilly with some special requests for me, I hope you all have fun there and get great picks!!!
And I got you Derrick, if I could avoid to pass trough customs twice and have my things opened twice and pay taxes, shipping and insurance twice, I might try to get some of the stuff I am missing authenticated.
The bad thing is that in the open market some autographs are worth less then the actual authentication so it would be an investment with no return, so it would be like giving more money to a company than what you actually pay for the item just to be sure you have a third part opinion, LOL!!!
If someone got a legitimate Hewitt autographed check for $700, they got an absolute steal in my opinion. They had been going for approx. $1,500 last year when I purchased mine.
I am not going to wade all the way into the PSA/JSA arguement, but I will give my brief thoughts and then stand on the sideline. I have submitted items that I have had autographed in person and they were rejected by PSA. I have seen plenty of mistakes called out online and agreed. I have submitted autographs that were failed and then several months later resubmitted and they passed. In the end, science can only get you so far (item, paper, ink, flow, exemplars, etc.) and then it becomes an educated opinion. Different people/authenticators will have different opinions, it's human nature. The same person may even have a different opinion as time passes. In the end though, I would rather them be conservative and fail things they are unsure about then to err the other way and just pass it. Sucks as a submitter, but in the end I would rather that then to have the market flooded with fakes that devalue the real pieces.
<< <i>Good points Derrick, although i mentioned store credit not cash refund hopefully the forgerys would get turned down every time but then I digress, thats neat you have $0 in your collection thats pretty damn impresive and Im quite jealous! (: Cesar good point too, it is just an opionion and this is a fun hobby it's just good to debate a little bit every now and again todays one of those days especially with Chantilly coming up soon, We all have our prefrences! @Catman, I used Sgc too on an item for a cert because it was half the price as psa/jsa did your items pass from them? >>
The debate is good and whether it's JSA or PSA they all make mistakes. Let's just all be thankful and hopeful that neither of them go south as some other authenicators went, I won't mention any names, but we all know who they were and still are, but if that happens then all of our collections will be pretty worthless to a point. I have not received my items from SGC as of yet, I just sent them last week. It was my first submission with them so I have no idea how long it will take. I did like their shipping charges however they were very reasonable. I know that with Mike Root there and Larry both from JSA they are trying to keep their prices down yet offer a quality product. I was at the same show Rocke was at this past weekend and they were authenicating for $4 and doing authenicating and slabbing for $20 on site. I don't know if you could get that Curly Lambeau authenicated for $4 or get it slabbed and authenicated for $20 but you could probably do one that had a value of $500.
<< <i>Catman: Unlike you, I would like PSA and JSA come SOUTH, literally, LOL!!! If they come to Mexico I would certainly submit some of my items!!! LOL!!! >>
LOL....I hear you Cesar! Well JSA is in South Florida, and PSA is in Southern California.....maybe they will open an office in Mexico City! lol
Derrick - Sounds like you have an impressive collection, only missing a few HOF'ers! I hope we get to meet in-person sometime and see some of it!
Like you, I try to keep my collection dollar neutral - not take my 'hobby' money out of the kitty and if I want something, sell something else. Not sure it's really worked out that way, but it's a goal!
As for the PSA/JSA/Authenticator discussion...I wrote this post below back a few years ago on another board and thought I'd share it. I do use PSA and JSA and have participated in group submissions with Derrick. I think they do provide a valuable service and perhaps have cleaned up the hobby a little, but I have also seen things "authenticated" with little more than a quick glance by one of the companies. I thik we, as a hobby, have given them too much power. I have had items I know, for a fact, are 1000% authentic since I had them signed in front of me - and they were turned down. That is so unbelievably frustrating.
Take another look at it though too...it's all about probability! Unless you got something signed yourself, you are never 100%. Even if you were to sell an item, that person has to believe you (unless they were there). When evaluating an item you take into many factors when evaluating a collectible - appearance of age, what type of item is it, what instrument was used, color, signing habits, your personal experience, etc. All of that adds up to a percentage, let's say 75%. I would argue that an authenticator opinion adds to that - but how much depends on you is it +10%? is it +20%? or more? Even if it is slabbed & labelled as "Authentic", it's never 100% - it can't be.
Enjoy - as always, love the discussions on here and reading about everyone's collection!!!
Joel
=============
Let me bring another thought into the mix - WHY are the 'authenticators' allowed to issue letters or certificates of AUTHENTICITY.
The dictionary defines AUTHENTIC as "not false or imitation", and GENUINE implies actual character not counterfeited, imitated, or adulterated 'genuine piety' 'genuine maple syrup'; it also connotes definite origin from a source 'a genuine Mark Twain autograph'.
Given this clear definition of AUTHENTIC and AUTHENTICITY, what the "AUTHENTICATORS" (PSA, JSA, SGC, etc.) are doing is creating facts from fiction. The ONLY exception to this is if they WITNESSED the autograph being signed, in a similar fashion as to a notary, and were stating themselves as a witness to the signature.
My solution to this issue is to abolish the terms AUTHENTIC and AUTHENTICITY and autograph 'Authentication' as a practice, and rather endorse the practice of OPINION. A 'Certificate/Letter of OPINION' can be issued, clearly stating is the OPINION of their company the item is not a forgery. AUTHENTICITY is a strong word and is completely inappropriate for our hobby.
Keep in mind before spending your hard eared money on 'AUTHENTICATION' that the authenticators are one bad item (and a lot of bad press) away from becoming worthless, such as what happened with Global.
'We', as a hobby, have granted the 'authenticators' the POWER to decide if items are real or not. Just based upon the examples from this thread, there are cases where they are clearly wrong. SO let me ask you, if we submitted 4 items which we knew all for a FACT were real, and 2 were denied, how do we know the reverse does not happen, and 2 items slipped through that were not real? That is the real issue, in that NOBODY ever QUESTIONS the 'AUTHENTICITY' once it has been labelled as such. Having strong verbiage directly attached to an item rules out the doubt of the 'OPINION' and gives buyers a false sense of security.
As I stated earlier, I have no problem using these services to render an opinion. It increases the comfort level of buyers (if you are a dealer), and can help validate your purchase as a buyer, but the old term 'ignorance is bliss' applies if your customers are basing their purchasing decision solely on the OPINION of one person/company.
Bottom line - Trust yourself, trust your own eyes, and trust your own judgment. I have no problem with someone paying for an OPINION, but realize it is only that...an OPINION, and not FACT.
<< <i>Derrick - Sounds like you have an impressive collection, only missing a few HOF'ers! I hope we get to meet in-person sometime and see some of it! >>
Well if you'd ever come visit your sister I'd be happy to have you over for a look-see
Collect HOF Autos and Anything Raiders.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
I'm not sure how many of you use these, but I've got 21 graded card bags available. They are very cool and fit PSA or BGS/JSA slabbed items. They retail for $3 each pre-shipping...I'm looking to get $50 DLVD on the lot OBO. If anyone is interested lmk. I've sent them to a couple people on nicer items they've purchased here, and they seem to be a hit.
Yes! I absolutely love those things!! I had my LCS owner asking about them when I showed my Ford to him. If I had it, I'd be buying these from you right now, Derrick, but I'm sure they won't last long!
Well those little PSA cases are just cool ! I haven't seen those - I have the tried and true method of Felt case covers with labels on them ! My sainted mother is quite the seamstress and she knocked out a hundred of them ( or so ) for me one afternoon. Not as cool as these - looks like an accessory Apple would produce lol !
<< <i>I am not going to wade all the way into the PSA/JSA arguement, but I will give my brief thoughts and then stand on the sideline. I have submitted items that I have had autographed in person and they were rejected by PSA. I have seen plenty of mistakes called out online and agreed. I have submitted autographs that were failed and then several months later resubmitted and they passed. In the end, science can only get you so far (item, paper, ink, flow, exemplars, etc.) and then it becomes an educated opinion. Different people/authenticators will have different opinions, it's human nature. The same person may even have a different opinion as time passes. In the end though, I would rather them be conservative and fail things they are unsure about then to err >>
Ken put this better I could. As a matter of fact I found all points on this subject valid ! A healthy topic to be sure. I would add the observation that once the card and/or autograph is authenticated its value is verified. Accredited at the very least. No matter what I may think of PSA, or you think of JSA or whatever it is , there is an accepted standard of authenticity that goes beyond an individual into the collecting world as a whole. Once its slabbed it's legit -the bottom line. All of this goes into the frustration, concerns on wether it will pass once submitted, and disappoinments on the occasions they do not. But probably the biggest reasons I don't get in on Derricks signings when I should are that I could slab 10 cards or.....spend 100$ on even more stuff, LOL !! hey, if cash were no concern I would have taken a flyer on that Lambeau Sunday I do love those little cases - someone should go halfsies with me...
<< <i>Derrick - Sounds like you have an impressive collection, only missing a few HOF'ers! I hope we get to meet in-person sometime and see some of it!
Like you, I try to keep my collection dollar neutral - not take my 'hobby' money out of the kitty and if I want something, sell something else. Not sure it's really worked out that way, but it's a goal!
As for the PSA/JSA/Authenticator discussion...I wrote this post below back a few years ago on another board and thought I'd share it. I do use PSA and JSA and have participated in group submissions with Derrick. I think they do provide a valuable service and perhaps have cleaned up the hobby a little, but I have also seen things "authenticated" with little more than a quick glance by one of the companies. I thik we, as a hobby, have given them too much power. I have had items I know, for a fact, are 1000% authentic since I had them signed in front of me - and they were turned down. That is so unbelievably frustrating.
Take another look at it though too...it's all about probability! Unless you got something signed yourself, you are never 100%. Even if you were to sell an item, that person has to believe you (unless they were there). When evaluating an item you take into many factors when evaluating a collectible - appearance of age, what type of item is it, what instrument was used, color, signing habits, your personal experience, etc. All of that adds up to a percentage, let's say 75%. I would argue that an authenticator opinion adds to that - but how much depends on you is it +10%? is it +20%? or more? Even if it is slabbed & labelled as "Authentic", it's never 100% - it can't be.
Enjoy - as always, love the discussions on here and reading about everyone's collection!!!
Joel
=============
Let me bring another thought into the mix - WHY are the 'authenticators' allowed to issue letters or certificates of AUTHENTICITY.
The dictionary defines AUTHENTIC as "not false or imitation", and GENUINE implies actual character not counterfeited, imitated, or adulterated 'genuine piety' 'genuine maple syrup'; it also connotes definite origin from a source 'a genuine Mark Twain autograph'.
Given this clear definition of AUTHENTIC and AUTHENTICITY, what the "AUTHENTICATORS" (PSA, JSA, SGC, etc.) are doing is creating facts from fiction. The ONLY exception to this is if they WITNESSED the autograph being signed, in a similar fashion as to a notary, and were stating themselves as a witness to the signature.
My solution to this issue is to abolish the terms AUTHENTIC and AUTHENTICITY and autograph 'Authentication' as a practice, and rather endorse the practice of OPINION. A 'Certificate/Letter of OPINION' can be issued, clearly stating is the OPINION of their company the item is not a forgery. AUTHENTICITY is a strong word and is completely inappropriate for our hobby.
Keep in mind before spending your hard eared money on 'AUTHENTICATION' that the authenticators are one bad item (and a lot of bad press) away from becoming worthless, such as what happened with Global.
'We', as a hobby, have granted the 'authenticators' the POWER to decide if items are real or not. Just based upon the examples from this thread, there are cases where they are clearly wrong. SO let me ask you, if we submitted 4 items which we knew all for a FACT were real, and 2 were denied, how do we know the reverse does not happen, and 2 items slipped through that were not real? That is the real issue, in that NOBODY ever QUESTIONS the 'AUTHENTICITY' once it has been labelled as such. Having strong verbiage directly attached to an item rules out the doubt of the 'OPINION' and gives buyers a false sense of security.
As I stated earlier, I have no problem using these services to render an opinion. It increases the comfort level of buyers (if you are a dealer), and can help validate your purchase as a buyer, but the old term 'ignorance is bliss' applies if your customers are basing their purchasing decision solely on the OPINION of one person/company.
Bottom line - Trust yourself, trust your own eyes, and trust your own judgment. I have no problem with someone paying for an OPINION, but realize it is only that...an OPINION, and not FACT. >>
Great points Joel. The problem is we collectors have empowered JSA and PSA by our buying habits. As long as we continue to purchase their authenticated items, then this will continue. I have jumped on the bandwagon as well. Why? As much as I'd like to live forever, it ain't going to happen and that means the "widow" will need to liquidate the collection some day (after she smothers me in my sleep because of my hobby insanity....). PSA and JSA authenticated items will give her the best chance of recouping the cash. Like everyone else on the board, I've had items turned down by both companies that were obtained in person and I've had stuff pass that I thought had zero chance of passing. I question the ability of these graders as well. Some of these graders are so young---how much experience can they possibly have compared to some of the reputable long term dealers? Then you have the graders that can't chew gum and walk at the same time----to just watch them conduct themselves make me think how the hell can this simpleton be judge and jury for my item? Rocke, you know who I'm talking about---we don't call him "The Lump" for nothing.....Good or bad, these are the cards we collectors have been dealt. In regards to the Hewitt check sale in Probstein, I thought I was getting a deal when I worked out a purchase with Rev. Mike for his Hewitt check.....oh well! The rest of the discussion has been great---especially the pros and cons stated by Nate and Derrick. Its been way to quiet! I'll be at Chantilly in my usual spot, hope to see you guys there.
<< <i>usually when stuff like this pops up I don't do a quick opinion until AFTER the auction is over. I've always wondered if whoever runs the quick opinion could tell people who submit items it's unlikely genuine to make bidders disgruntled and then swoop in and win it for themselves. That's why I usually wait to submit an opinion until it's said and done. Would be interesting if someone submitted it again what the result would be now that it's over.... >>
You know...I've thought about that as well, Derrick. I think I am probably not going to submit things anymore because I think it quite possible. Not saying it is happening, but even just the thought does scare me. And with you thinking it as well, I am definitely going to have to stop doing it. Just compare to stuff we know is real and trust my gut.
And yeah, Frank. It did make it on ebay. It was on there for a couple days. I was watching the Stydahar and it went for a lot more than I thought it would. This started out at a very high asking price, dropped down last night and after a few back and forth offers, they gave me a price I could not say no to. I swore he had some SP Legendary Cut autographs, but looks like his 2009 Donruss Classics is his only other card autograph. I do have a nice index card signed by him, but don't think I could ever let that thing go being a full name sig. >>
yep the 2009 is his only other card
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Okay...I can finally breath a lot easier. The Driscoll is in hand and no creases, damage, etc. They shipped it VERY well, though unfortunately it was in a one touch, so I had to pull it out carefully, scan it and slip it into a thick penny sleeve and into a toploader. (I just don't like how cards move around inside the one touches...and don't get me started on screw downs.
It looks to be in very nice shape. I would guess a PSA 9 if graded. There is a slight bit of white on one of the corners, but I can't see any damage. At worst an 8, but don't think it would drop THAT low. So, here is my scan for the VERY short period it was out of the holders.
<< <i>Okay...I can finally breath a lot easier. The Driscoll is in hand and no creases, damage, etc. They shipped it VERY well, though unfortunately it was in a one touch, so I had to pull it out carefully, scan it and slip it into a thick penny sleeve and into a toploader. (I just don't like how cards move around inside the one touches...and don't get me started on screw downs.
It looks to be in very nice shape. I would guess a PSA 9 if graded. There is a slight bit of white on one of the corners, but I can't see any damage. At worst an 8, but don't think it would drop THAT low. So, here is my scan for the VERY short period it was out of the holders.
Congrats wju- I have some experience when submitting this thick cards. You can use the magnetic one touch holder. PSA usually does not return them. I take a piece of scotch tape (about 4"), fold the end to make a tab and then put it over the magnetic tab and top of the card. This will insure that the card doesn't pop out of the holder in transit and also make it easy for the grader to "unlock" the card. PSA is tough on thick cards (I'm assuming it's a little thicker), Buy I think you are looking at a 9
Well.... Leaving for another GREAT show down in Chantilly, Va. I know I will be seeing Nathan and Joe. Getting a bunch of stuff authenticated, having Charley Taylor, Boyd Dowler, Joe Namath and others sign stuff I need. Sure to be a GREAT weekend.
Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
I have a number of auto'd cards in the blue flip or red flip labeled only "authentic." I want to get these in the red flip and with the card grade so I can add them to my registry set. Does anyone know the process? Is there a discount since they have already been through the PSA/DNA process or do I have to suck it up and pay the $25 again?
Thanks in advance! Reese
Collecting the following autographed sets: HOF RC Auto Set 1955 Topps Football AA 1950 Bowman Football 1951 Bowman Football 1952 Bowman Football
ebay user- Jolt333 Please be sure to check out my auctions!
Since auto has already passed PSA/DNA. You should just be able to send it in for the card grading only. Which means regular PSA pricing. At least that is what I remember from what I have done before, though I would call PSA to verify.
Jay
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
For those of you who don't know Joe, if he's not fun, he's definitely.....shall we say.... interesting. LOL
I have sent two pictures of the signed 1950 Dick Barwegan card I picked up. The 1st posted picture is from my son Ben's cell phone. Not exactly the quality of picture I was looking for. The next two will be from my REAL camera. The card itself is in decent shape. The blue ballpoint pen autograph is OUTSTANDING. Barwegan was the last 1950's ALL-DECADE Non-Hall of Fame player that I needed an autograph of. And, now the 1950's is the 1st decade that I have completed.
Thanks Derrick.
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
# 2....I will make you a deal. You come to Canton to see the HOF. You teach me how to use Photobucket, and I will teach you how to use Facebook. Then we all win
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
Nice pickup there Rocke - Barwegan and Len Ford are the 2 guys I don't have for the NFL 1950's All-Decade Team. Now most of the other guys are not terribly tough to find per se , but what a list of players ! Nice card !
Well it looks like the HOF's Fan Fest in Cleveland at the IX Center must be looking like a flop because I just got an email from them announcing a special BOGO free through Tuesday April 15th. Go to the HOF site and when you purchase tickets enter this promo code FANFEST14. That will get you the BOGO discount. IMO $39.95 to go to a show and supposedly mingle with HOFers with no chance of an autograph is a total waste of money. Maybe, if you have children and they would really enjoy it then I think it would be worth it, but for most of us, I don't see a reason to go. The autograph sessions are a joke, you can only bring in one item for the entire session to sign, but again that's just my opinion.
<< <i>Well it looks like the HOF's Fan Fest in Cleveland at the IX Center must be looking like a flop because I just got an email from them announcing a special BOGO free through Tuesday April 15th. Go to the HOF site and when you purchase tickets enter this promo code FANFEST14. That will get you the BOGO discount. IMO $39.95 to go to a show and supposedly mingle with HOFers with no chance of an autograph is a total waste of money. Maybe, if you have children and they would really enjoy it then I think it would be worth it, but for most of us, I don't see a reason to go. The autograph sessions are a joke, you can only bring in one item for the entire session to sign, but again that's just my opinion. >>
Wow...that is bad. I figured with the price tags I saw for autograph sessions that it would not go over well. It's all well and good, but have to keep it reasonable. I will just save my money and go to the Nationals.
I recently purchased a Giants piece with Spider Lockhart, Alex Hawkins, Chuck Hinton and EM Tunnell from Stinson sports, If anyone needs Tunnell let me know I wouldn't mind flipping it quick! Unpersonalized, would be able to cut the Tunnell sell the rest if you so choose. Thanks! -Nathan
Are there any early Chicago Cardinals collectors on here? A buddy of mine owns a 1950 GPC signed by Peter Steger, who played on the 1921 Cardinals. Steger only played that one season and passed away in 1954, four years after this GPC was signed. Any ideas on value? Anyone have any interest? Thanks in advance for your help.
Ohio State football coaches and All-Americans collector.
WOW....The Huggins & Scott auction ends tonight. Some of the lots have just ballooned in price.
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
<< <i>WOW....The Huggins & Scott auction ends tonight. Some of the lots have just ballooned in price. >>
That they have. I have been watching the Carr just to see how high it would go. I can at least say I bid on it...even if it was just the opening bid. lol. (Probably about as close to a Carr as I'll come for quite a while.)
Carr was at $7500-----more than I paid for Tim Mara! Anyone here the lucky winner? I got the Reeves/Layne page and the Halas photo. This frees up my album page signed by Reeves,Turk Edwards, Bill Dudley and authenticated by JSA, if anyone is interested.
Congrats on the Reeves and Layne. Very nice piece there.
I ended up snagging the Steve Owen tonight. Figured that would make a nice piece made into a custom cut and the slabbed.
Of course, just like JM, this frees up my Steve Owen page. Figure if anyone is interested here, I will sell it on here, otherwise I will just throw it up on the bay and see what offers I get.
Rocke's been bugging me for a long time to get on here and post. First about Rocke. Here's a guy that invites a guy he'd just met, at the mall during HOF weekend last year, to come by his house and see his collections. I had my daughters with me and didn't think they'd want to hang out with strangers. As we're walking out my younger daughter says "what stranger he just told you his life story." Perceptive kid. Finally got to see his collection when I was in town for the HOF golf outing. Very impressive. Then a couple of weeks ago he calls me at the same daughter's softball game and tells me he's holding my Carr letter. Not many people would take the time out to do that.
Yes, I won the letter on Huggins & Scott. That leaves me with 3 guys to go: Bidwell, Mara and Ray. If I wasn't that close to the end of the line, there's no way I would have spent that much. OK Rocke, now I've posted.
Looking for Bidwell, Mara and Ray to complete my FBHOF collection
<< <i>Rocke's been bugging me for a long time to get on here and post. First about Rocke. Here's a guy that invites a guy he'd just met, at the mall during HOF weekend last year, to come by his house and see his collections. I had my daughters with me and didn't think they'd want to hang out with strangers. As we're walking out my younger daughter says "what stranger he just told you his life story." Perceptive kid. Finally got to see his collection when I was in town for the HOF golf outing. Very impressive. Then a couple of weeks ago he calls me at the same daughter's softball game and tells me he's holding my Carr letter. Not many people would take the time out to do that.
Yes, I won the letter on Huggins & Scott. That leaves me with 3 guys to go: Bidwell, Mara and Ray. If I wasn't that close to the end of the line, there's no way I would have spent that much. OK Rocke, now I've posted. >>
HAHA.... TOO Funny. It's about time.
Well, here is my side. I don't invite just ANYONE over. But after talking with Kevin, for a while, He was no stranger, he was a new found friend.
I must apologize about something though, Kevin. I told you that I thought 5 K would win it. Guess I was wrong about that. For those of you that are NOT my Facebook friends, I am at the Strongsville show on Sunday March 30th, Bill Huggins, from Huggins & Scott is there, and he lets me hold the Joe Carr letter, and a friend of mine from Heritage Auctions takes a picture. Then I called Kevin and told him I was holding his letter. I knew Kevin was going to go strong after it, and I am VERY Happy that he won. Being down to three, I am sure Kevin has an OUTSTANDING collection. I am guessing that he is smarter than me, and can figure out how to post pictures. If not, Kevin, do what I do, Email pictures to Ed Wolfe or Derrick. They have been VERY good about helping me out as far as pictures.
WELCOME, Kevin. You will be a GREAT addition to this group.
Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
Congratulations Jayhawk on a very nice addition and welcome to this board ! It may be a little territorial, but whenever a nice little gem comes along I'm always glad to see a member of this board pick it up - even if I was the runner up, lol ! In your case the little gem yurns out to be a Big A** Diamond ! Your letter also looks a little familiar - about 15 years ago I lost out on a Joe Carr letter that looks a lot like yours. I wonder.... At any rate some really, really GREAT stuff comes through here. A lot of nice history. Hey Rocke - you're quite the Ambassador !
Ok guys...I know most of you focus on just certified items (though a few of you do pack pulled cards as well), but this has to be the most asinine thing I have ever seen. I know cut autos usually sell for a lot more than a nice index card...but this...is just nuts. I had talked to the owner of the card and made an offer that might have been a bit low, but not sure if he sold it to someone else who posted it...or if he posted it, but he listed it at $1999 BIN OBO...and someone hit BIN.
I asked if he was the seller on ebay, but his message was a bit...confusing. lol. It sounded like he sold it and someone else listed, but not sure. If it is paid for...all I can say is wow. Someone either is trying to do the set (not going to happen), or just really wanted the auto.
Comments
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
<< <i>If you go by whats on hauls of shame it wouldn't be good for jsa or psa, but none the less it is shame that these "opionions" are a neccesity to maintain any value you put in your collection, even for collectors who want insurance purposes ect. not even just sellers and you sometimes have to pay $100 and up. A company needs to come along with legitamate non greed driven collectors as authenticators offering a flat rate on every item say 25-35 each and offering store credit on all items that fail so the consumer doesn't feel jipped when they make the mistake and theres no conflict of interest. I understand your point of view Derrick as I am going off one incident myself like you are, but when Psa's caution costs you hundreds on pieces you got done yourself and mock you as buying bad stuff and nearly drives you out of the hobby it is not a good thing! Considering us younger collectors are drying up when we realize the money you need to pursue autographs of these hall of famers its tough! I once showed my only collecting friend here in maryland my collection pull out a Thorpe 8x10 and he says "Thats nice but i bet my Clay Matthews is worth more...", I don't know if there are any other board members here on this hall of fame forum that are under 30? At the least how many people 30 or younger would drool over an Arnie Herber before Aaron Rodgers? Its a tough hobby sometimes that thrives on collectors respecting history of the game but history in general is dying in school systems because Johnny doesn't know calculus...if the costs of opionions decrease it would benefit everyone but untill they do id rather go with not only the guy who passes more items but treats us like we actually matter because I dont want to spend $280 like Rocke and getting a legitamate beautiful one of a kind item turned down, I can't afford to have that happen while paying for college the most I ever paid for a signature in my collection is $500 and that wasn't even a sports autograph, I mean $280 Thats almost half the cost of a whole college class! If it continues to be a monopoly and prices continue to raise for psa/jsa when your children are ready to sell the collection for thiere college education or you want to retire you have to hope me and maybe a small handfulls of others have our checkbooks ready! As every one else on the forum gets close to finishing off thiere sets then who is left to sell too if people can't justify spending hundreds on authenticating? Its a hobby first and buisness second , this is the best hobby there is I just am tired of people having to bend over backwords for these companys on legitamate items that were just about the only people who care about them, its hard to imagine a hobby started with envelopes and tickets to the games turned into a billion dollar industry, sometimes I think Blood bank Bill has the right idea >>
To some of your points Nathan - I am 31. I got my first HOF autograph (Bud Grant at Scheels in Bismarck) when I was 6. I've been at it 25 years - mostly writing athletes when I was younger. Now - I am the sole provider of a family of 5. I work 5 different jobs (6 when I start teaching in the fall) to make sure they have everything they need/deserve. And even at that we still struggle almost every month to make it work. I am currently down to needing 5 signatures to have one of everyone in the HOF and I have $0 invested in my collection. My ENTIRE HOF PC is in PSA/DNA slabs. I have a flipping fund and I buy/sell stuff that I allow myself to dedicate to expanding my hobby. I would never take from my family to put it towards my hobby.
That being said - you can't run a legitimate company and offer a refund if you deem it unworthy. You'd have forgers doing nothing but submitting bad items because they know in the end it won't matter - they'll just get their money back. It's not about them being greedy - take a step back and think of the economincs. As a father of 3 and provider of 5 - and a collector who has $0 extra money to spend on the hobby I sure as hell wouldn't want it any different....
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
We are all in the same side here!!!
LOL!!!
After all their LOA's say it is our OPINION, so we can each one have our own opinion about some autographs in our collection, we all have great stuff, but we have all been fooled a couple of times too.
It is part of the hobbie, after all we have to trust our own knowledge and rely on some of us to make sure we are making good desicions.
PSA and JSA give opinions, we can also have our own and after all I am sure that one person can't be an expert in so many fields, I know there is a lot of different experts in each company but with so many names and different fields, it is easy to have mistakes
It is the hobby we all love.
ENJOY IT, LOL!!!
<< <i>Good points Derrick, although i mentioned store credit not cash refund hopefully the forgerys would get turned down every time but then I digress, thats neat you have $0 in your collection thats pretty damn impresive and Im quite jealous! (: Cesar good point too, it is just an opionion and this is a fun hobby it's just good to debate a little bit every now and again todays one of those days especially with Chantilly coming up soon, We all have our prefrences! @Catman, I used Sgc too on an item for a cert because it was half the price as psa/jsa did your items pass from them? >>
It's hard work - but it's worth it. I love the hobby so for me flipping isn't a job - it's something I enjoy.
And I completely understand how frustrating it is to have stuff turned down. I've spent a few grand on gambles that didn't pan out. But that's part of the fun too - because it makes the treasures you find that much more meaningful. I just don't see a feasible solution to getting rid of it. You pay the fee for their opinoin - good or bad. But that's the main reason I started doing the bulk submissions - to get the $10 rate. That way it doesn't hurt as bad if it is rejected. I probably wouldn't have my collection encased if it wasn't for them allowing me to run the bulk specials.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
And I got you Derrick, if I could avoid to pass trough customs twice and have my things opened twice and pay taxes, shipping and insurance twice, I might try to get some of the stuff I am missing authenticated.
The bad thing is that in the open market some autographs are worth less then the actual authentication so it would be an investment with no return, so it would be like giving more money to a company than what you actually pay for the item just to be sure you have a third part opinion, LOL!!!
If someone got a legitimate Hewitt autographed check for $700, they got an absolute steal in my opinion. They had been going for approx. $1,500 last year when I purchased mine.
I am not going to wade all the way into the PSA/JSA arguement, but I will give my brief thoughts and then stand on the sideline
Ken
<< <i>Good points Derrick, although i mentioned store credit not cash refund hopefully the forgerys would get turned down every time but then I digress, thats neat you have $0 in your collection thats pretty damn impresive and Im quite jealous! (: Cesar good point too, it is just an opionion and this is a fun hobby it's just good to debate a little bit every now and again todays one of those days especially with Chantilly coming up soon, We all have our prefrences! @Catman, I used Sgc too on an item for a cert because it was half the price as psa/jsa did your items pass from them? >>
The debate is good and whether it's JSA or PSA they all make mistakes. Let's just all be thankful and hopeful that neither of them go south as some other authenicators went, I won't mention any names, but we all know who they were and still are, but if that happens then all of our collections will be pretty worthless to a point. I have not received my items from SGC as of yet, I just sent them last week. It was my first submission with them so I have no idea how long it will take. I did like their shipping charges however they were very reasonable. I know that with Mike Root there and Larry both from JSA they are trying to keep their prices down yet offer a quality product. I was at the same show Rocke was at this past weekend and they were authenicating for $4 and doing authenicating and slabbing for $20 on site. I don't know if you could get that Curly Lambeau authenicated for $4 or get it slabbed and authenicated for $20 but you could probably do one that had a value of $500.
Unlike you, I would like PSA and JSA come SOUTH, literally, LOL!!!
If they come to Mexico I would certainly submit some of my items!!! LOL!!!
<< <i>Catman:
Unlike you, I would like PSA and JSA come SOUTH, literally, LOL!!!
If they come to Mexico I would certainly submit some of my items!!! LOL!!! >>
LOL....I hear you Cesar! Well JSA is in South Florida, and PSA is in Southern California.....maybe they will open an office in Mexico City! lol
Like you, I try to keep my collection dollar neutral - not take my 'hobby' money out of the kitty and if I want something, sell something else. Not sure it's really worked out that way, but it's a goal!
As for the PSA/JSA/Authenticator discussion...I wrote this post below back a few years ago on another board and thought I'd share it. I do use PSA and JSA and have participated in group submissions with Derrick. I think they do provide a valuable service and perhaps have cleaned up the hobby a little, but I have also seen things "authenticated" with little more than a quick glance by one of the companies. I thik we, as a hobby, have given them too much power. I have had items I know, for a fact, are 1000% authentic since I had them signed in front of me - and they were turned down. That is so unbelievably frustrating.
Take another look at it though too...it's all about probability! Unless you got something signed yourself, you are never 100%. Even if you were to sell an item, that person has to believe you (unless they were there). When evaluating an item you take into many factors when evaluating a collectible - appearance of age, what type of item is it, what instrument was used, color, signing habits, your personal experience, etc. All of that adds up to a percentage, let's say 75%. I would argue that an authenticator opinion adds to that - but how much depends on you is it +10%? is it +20%? or more? Even if it is slabbed & labelled as "Authentic", it's never 100% - it can't be.
Enjoy - as always, love the discussions on here and reading about everyone's collection!!!
Joel
=============
Let me bring another thought into the mix - WHY are the 'authenticators' allowed to issue letters or certificates of AUTHENTICITY.
The dictionary defines AUTHENTIC as "not false or imitation", and GENUINE implies actual character not counterfeited, imitated, or adulterated 'genuine piety' 'genuine maple syrup'; it also connotes definite origin from a source 'a genuine Mark Twain autograph'.
Given this clear definition of AUTHENTIC and AUTHENTICITY, what the "AUTHENTICATORS" (PSA, JSA, SGC, etc.) are doing is creating facts from fiction. The ONLY exception to this is if they WITNESSED the autograph being signed, in a similar fashion as to a notary, and were stating themselves as a witness to the signature.
My solution to this issue is to abolish the terms AUTHENTIC and AUTHENTICITY and autograph 'Authentication' as a practice, and rather endorse the practice of OPINION. A 'Certificate/Letter of OPINION' can be issued, clearly stating is the OPINION of their company the item is not a forgery. AUTHENTICITY is a strong word and is completely inappropriate for our hobby.
Keep in mind before spending your hard eared money on 'AUTHENTICATION' that the authenticators are one bad item (and a lot of bad press) away from becoming worthless, such as what happened with Global.
'We', as a hobby, have granted the 'authenticators' the POWER to decide if items are real or not. Just based upon the examples from this thread, there are cases where they are clearly wrong. SO let me ask you, if we submitted 4 items which we knew all for a FACT were real, and 2 were denied, how do we know the reverse does not happen, and 2 items slipped through that were not real? That is the real issue, in that NOBODY ever QUESTIONS the 'AUTHENTICITY' once it has been labelled as such. Having strong verbiage directly attached to an item rules out the doubt of the 'OPINION' and gives buyers a false sense of security.
As I stated earlier, I have no problem using these services to render an opinion. It increases the comfort level of buyers (if you are a dealer), and can help validate your purchase as a buyer, but the old term 'ignorance is bliss' applies if your customers are basing their purchasing decision solely on the OPINION of one person/company.
Bottom line - Trust yourself, trust your own eyes, and trust your own judgment. I have no problem with someone paying for an OPINION, but realize it is only that...an OPINION, and not FACT.
<< <i>Derrick - Sounds like you have an impressive collection, only missing a few HOF'ers! I hope we get to meet in-person sometime and see some of it! >>
Well if you'd ever come visit your sister I'd be happy to have you over for a look-see
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
http://www.cardcasepro.com/graded-sports-card-bags.php
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
<< <i>I am not going to wade all the way into the PSA/JSA arguement, but I will give my brief thoughts and then stand on the sideline. I have submitted items that I have had autographed in person and they were rejected by PSA. I have seen plenty of mistakes called out online and agreed. I have submitted autographs that were failed and then several months later resubmitted and they passed. In the end, science can only get you so far (item, paper, ink, flow, exemplars, etc.) and then it becomes an educated opinion. Different people/authenticators will have different opinions, it's human nature. The same person may even have a different opinion as time passes. In the end though, I would rather them be conservative and fail things they are unsure about then to err >>
Ken put this better I could.
As a matter of fact I found all points on this subject valid ! A healthy topic to be sure.
I would add the observation that once the card and/or autograph is authenticated its value is verified. Accredited at the very least. No matter what I may think of PSA, or you think of JSA or whatever it is , there is an accepted standard of authenticity that goes beyond an individual into the collecting world as a whole. Once its slabbed it's legit -the bottom line.
All of this goes into the frustration, concerns on wether it will pass once submitted, and disappoinments on the occasions they do not.
But probably the biggest reasons I don't get in on Derricks signings when I should are that I could slab 10 cards or.....spend 100$ on even more stuff, LOL !!
hey, if cash were no concern I would have taken a flyer on that Lambeau Sunday
I do love those little cases - someone should go halfsies with me...
<< <i>Derrick - Sounds like you have an impressive collection, only missing a few HOF'ers! I hope we get to meet in-person sometime and see some of it!
Like you, I try to keep my collection dollar neutral - not take my 'hobby' money out of the kitty and if I want something, sell something else. Not sure it's really worked out that way, but it's a goal!
As for the PSA/JSA/Authenticator discussion...I wrote this post below back a few years ago on another board and thought I'd share it. I do use PSA and JSA and have participated in group submissions with Derrick. I think they do provide a valuable service and perhaps have cleaned up the hobby a little, but I have also seen things "authenticated" with little more than a quick glance by one of the companies. I thik we, as a hobby, have given them too much power. I have had items I know, for a fact, are 1000% authentic since I had them signed in front of me - and they were turned down. That is so unbelievably frustrating.
Take another look at it though too...it's all about probability! Unless you got something signed yourself, you are never 100%. Even if you were to sell an item, that person has to believe you (unless they were there). When evaluating an item you take into many factors when evaluating a collectible - appearance of age, what type of item is it, what instrument was used, color, signing habits, your personal experience, etc. All of that adds up to a percentage, let's say 75%. I would argue that an authenticator opinion adds to that - but how much depends on you is it +10%? is it +20%? or more? Even if it is slabbed & labelled as "Authentic", it's never 100% - it can't be.
Enjoy - as always, love the discussions on here and reading about everyone's collection!!!
Joel
=============
Let me bring another thought into the mix - WHY are the 'authenticators' allowed to issue letters or certificates of AUTHENTICITY.
The dictionary defines AUTHENTIC as "not false or imitation", and GENUINE implies actual character not counterfeited, imitated, or adulterated 'genuine piety' 'genuine maple syrup'; it also connotes definite origin from a source 'a genuine Mark Twain autograph'.
Given this clear definition of AUTHENTIC and AUTHENTICITY, what the "AUTHENTICATORS" (PSA, JSA, SGC, etc.) are doing is creating facts from fiction. The ONLY exception to this is if they WITNESSED the autograph being signed, in a similar fashion as to a notary, and were stating themselves as a witness to the signature.
My solution to this issue is to abolish the terms AUTHENTIC and AUTHENTICITY and autograph 'Authentication' as a practice, and rather endorse the practice of OPINION. A 'Certificate/Letter of OPINION' can be issued, clearly stating is the OPINION of their company the item is not a forgery. AUTHENTICITY is a strong word and is completely inappropriate for our hobby.
Keep in mind before spending your hard eared money on 'AUTHENTICATION' that the authenticators are one bad item (and a lot of bad press) away from becoming worthless, such as what happened with Global.
'We', as a hobby, have granted the 'authenticators' the POWER to decide if items are real or not. Just based upon the examples from this thread, there are cases where they are clearly wrong. SO let me ask you, if we submitted 4 items which we knew all for a FACT were real, and 2 were denied, how do we know the reverse does not happen, and 2 items slipped through that were not real? That is the real issue, in that NOBODY ever QUESTIONS the 'AUTHENTICITY' once it has been labelled as such. Having strong verbiage directly attached to an item rules out the doubt of the 'OPINION' and gives buyers a false sense of security.
As I stated earlier, I have no problem using these services to render an opinion. It increases the comfort level of buyers (if you are a dealer), and can help validate your purchase as a buyer, but the old term 'ignorance is bliss' applies if your customers are basing their purchasing decision solely on the OPINION of one person/company.
Bottom line - Trust yourself, trust your own eyes, and trust your own judgment. I have no problem with someone paying for an OPINION, but realize it is only that...an OPINION, and not FACT. >>
Great points Joel. The problem is we collectors have empowered JSA and PSA by our buying habits. As long as we continue to purchase their authenticated items, then this will continue. I have jumped on the bandwagon as well. Why? As much as I'd like to live forever, it ain't going to happen and that means the "widow" will need to liquidate the collection some day (after she smothers me in my sleep because of my hobby insanity....). PSA and JSA authenticated items will give her the best chance of recouping the cash. Like everyone else on the board, I've had items turned down by both companies that were obtained in person and I've had stuff pass that I thought had zero chance of passing. I question the ability of these graders as well. Some of these graders are so young---how much experience can they possibly have compared to some of the reputable long term dealers? Then you have the graders that can't chew gum and walk at the same time----to just watch them conduct themselves make me think how the hell can this simpleton be judge and jury for my item? Rocke, you know who I'm talking about---we don't call him "The Lump" for nothing.....Good or bad, these are the cards we collectors have been dealt.
In regards to the Hewitt check sale in Probstein, I thought I was getting a deal when I worked out a purchase with Rev. Mike for his Hewitt check.....oh well!
The rest of the discussion has been great---especially the pros and cons stated by Nate and Derrick. Its been way to quiet!
I'll be at Chantilly in my usual spot, hope to see you guys there.
<< <i>
<< <i>usually when stuff like this pops up I don't do a quick opinion until AFTER the auction is over. I've always wondered if whoever runs the quick opinion could tell people who submit items it's unlikely genuine to make bidders disgruntled and then swoop in and win it for themselves. That's why I usually wait to submit an opinion until it's said and done. Would be interesting if someone submitted it again what the result would be now that it's over.... >>
You know...I've thought about that as well, Derrick. I think I am probably not going to submit things anymore because I think it quite possible. Not saying it is happening, but even just the thought does scare me. And with you thinking it as well, I am definitely going to have to stop doing it. Just compare to stuff we know is real and trust my gut.
And yeah, Frank. It did make it on ebay. It was on there for a couple days. I was watching the Stydahar and it went for a lot more than I thought it would. This started out at a very high asking price, dropped down last night and after a few back and forth offers, they gave me a price I could not say no to. I swore he had some SP Legendary Cut autographs, but looks like his 2009 Donruss Classics is his only other card autograph. I do have a nice index card signed by him, but don't think I could ever let that thing go being a full name sig. >>
yep the 2009 is his only other card
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
It looks to be in very nice shape. I would guess a PSA 9 if graded. There is a slight bit of white on one of the corners, but I can't see any damage. At worst an 8, but don't think it would drop THAT low. So, here is my scan for the VERY short period it was out of the holders.
<< <i>Okay...I can finally breath a lot easier. The Driscoll is in hand and no creases, damage, etc. They shipped it VERY well, though unfortunately it was in a one touch, so I had to pull it out carefully, scan it and slip it into a thick penny sleeve and into a toploader. (I just don't like how cards move around inside the one touches...and don't get me started on screw downs.
It looks to be in very nice shape. I would guess a PSA 9 if graded. There is a slight bit of white on one of the corners, but I can't see any damage. At worst an 8, but don't think it would drop THAT low. So, here is my scan for the VERY short period it was out of the holders.
Absolutely gorgeous card, fantastic pickup!
Rocke
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
HOF RC Auto Set
1955 Topps Football AA
1950 Bowman Football
1951 Bowman Football
1952 Bowman Football
ebay user- Jolt333
Please be sure to check out my auctions!
I have a number of auto'd cards in the blue flip or red flip labeled only "authentic." I want to get these in the red flip and with the card grade so I can add them to my registry set. Does anyone know the process? Is there a discount since they have already been through the PSA/DNA process or do I have to suck it up and pay the $25 again?
Thanks in advance!
Reese
HOF RC Auto Set
1955 Topps Football AA
1950 Bowman Football
1951 Bowman Football
1952 Bowman Football
ebay user- Jolt333
Please be sure to check out my auctions!
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
Since auto has already passed PSA/DNA. You should just be able to send it in for the card grading only. Which means regular PSA pricing. At least that is what I remember from what I have done before, though I would call PSA to verify.
Jay
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Rocke asked me to post a pickup he got in Chantilly. I'm sure it'll generate some "buzz." Sounds like he's having a great time!!
Of course he had a great time----he was hanging with me, HA!
I have sent two pictures of the signed 1950 Dick Barwegan card I picked up. The 1st posted picture is from my son Ben's cell phone. Not exactly the quality of picture I was looking for. The next two will be from my REAL camera. The card itself is in decent shape. The blue ballpoint pen autograph is OUTSTANDING. Barwegan was the last 1950's ALL-DECADE Non-Hall of Fame player that I needed an autograph of. And, now the 1950's is the 1st decade that I have completed.
Thanks Derrick.
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
# 2....I will make you a deal. You come to Canton to see the HOF. You teach me how to use Photobucket, and I will teach you how to use Facebook. Then we all win
<< <i>For those of you who don't know Joe, if he's not fun, he's definitely.....shall we say.... interesting. LOL (q)
Fun just follows me around! The best part of hanging with Rocke is he's easy prey to practical jokes.....
Barwegan and Len Ford are the 2 guys I don't have for the NFL 1950's All-Decade Team. Now most of the other guys are not terribly tough to find per se , but what a list of players ! Nice card !
<< <i>Well it looks like the HOF's Fan Fest in Cleveland at the IX Center must be looking like a flop because I just got an email from them announcing a special BOGO free through Tuesday April 15th. Go to the HOF site and when you purchase tickets enter this promo code FANFEST14. That will get you the BOGO discount. IMO $39.95 to go to a show and supposedly mingle with HOFers with no chance of an autograph is a total waste of money. Maybe, if you have children and they would really enjoy it then I think it would be worth it, but for most of us, I don't see a reason to go. The autograph sessions are a joke, you can only bring in one item for the entire session to sign, but again that's just my opinion. >>
Wow...that is bad. I figured with the price tags I saw for autograph sessions that it would not go over well. It's all well and good, but have to keep it reasonable. I will just save my money and go to the Nationals.
<< <i>WOW....The Huggins & Scott auction ends tonight. Some of the lots have just ballooned in price. >>
That they have. I have been watching the Carr just to see how high it would go. I can at least say I bid on it...even if it was just the opening bid. lol. (Probably about as close to a Carr as I'll come for quite a while.)
I ended up snagging the Steve Owen tonight. Figured that would make a nice piece made into a custom cut and the slabbed.
Of course, just like JM, this frees up my Steve Owen page. Figure if anyone is interested here, I will sell it on here, otherwise I will just throw it up on the bay and see what offers I get.
Yes, I won the letter on Huggins & Scott. That leaves me with 3 guys to go: Bidwell, Mara and Ray. If I wasn't that close to the end of the line, there's no way I would have spent that much. OK Rocke, now I've posted.
<< <i>Rocke's been bugging me for a long time to get on here and post. First about Rocke. Here's a guy that invites a guy he'd just met, at the mall during HOF weekend last year, to come by his house and see his collections. I had my daughters with me and didn't think they'd want to hang out with strangers. As we're walking out my younger daughter says "what stranger he just told you his life story." Perceptive kid. Finally got to see his collection when I was in town for the HOF golf outing. Very impressive. Then a couple of weeks ago he calls me at the same daughter's softball game and tells me he's holding my Carr letter. Not many people would take the time out to do that.
Yes, I won the letter on Huggins & Scott. That leaves me with 3 guys to go: Bidwell, Mara and Ray. If I wasn't that close to the end of the line, there's no way I would have spent that much. OK Rocke, now I've posted. >>
HAHA.... TOO Funny. It's about time.
Well, here is my side. I don't invite just ANYONE over. But after talking with Kevin, for a while, He was no stranger, he was a new found friend.
I must apologize about something though, Kevin. I told you that I thought 5 K would win it. Guess I was wrong about that. For those of you that are NOT my Facebook friends, I am at the Strongsville show on Sunday March 30th, Bill Huggins, from Huggins & Scott is there, and he lets me hold the Joe Carr letter, and a friend of mine from Heritage Auctions takes a picture. Then I called Kevin and told him I was holding his letter. I knew Kevin was going to go strong after it, and I am VERY Happy that he won. Being down to three, I am sure Kevin has an OUTSTANDING collection. I am guessing that he is smarter than me, and can figure out how to post pictures. If not, Kevin, do what I do, Email pictures to Ed Wolfe or Derrick. They have been VERY good about helping me out as far as pictures.
WELCOME, Kevin. You will be a GREAT addition to this group.
Rocke
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
It may be a little territorial, but whenever a nice little gem comes along I'm always glad to see a member of this board pick it up - even if I was the runner up, lol !
In your case the little gem yurns out to be a Big A** Diamond ! Your letter also looks a little familiar - about 15 years ago I lost out on a Joe Carr letter that looks a lot like yours. I wonder....
At any rate some really, really GREAT stuff comes through here. A lot of nice history.
Hey Rocke - you're quite the Ambassador !
I asked if he was the seller on ebay, but his message was a bit...confusing. lol. It sounded like he sold it and someone else listed, but not sure. If it is paid for...all I can say is wow. Someone either is trying to do the set (not going to happen), or just really wanted the auto.
Jack Christiansen
"In Al We Trust!"
Looking for Autos of HOFers Charles Bidwill, Tim Mara, Joe Carr, Fritz Pollard, Guy Chamberlin & Bill Hewitt
<< <i>Looks like an index card from the John Smith collection if I'm not mistaken. >>
Wasn't sure what collection (again...I'm a n00b). But I knew it had to come from some collection as I had this: