That is kind of strange. He may be moving on to other sets. I'll touch base with him and se whatup...
Hey BarkusD - I thought you auctioned your set off. But, I see it still listed up in the Current category. Did it not hit the reserve you were looking for?
Frank
Frank Bakka Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972 Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!
Well....it has finally happened...............A Red's Rookie card has graded out higher them a PSA 8....................I wonder where it will show up???
Collector of:Baseball 1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete - Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Looks like there are some low pop '72s available out there! Who's biddin' on what?
I need a few of the cards, so let's figure out what we are bidding on so that everyone gets a fair shot (at lower prices hopefully ) and get closer to that 100%!
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
$26? Wow, that's amazing. I'm glad that someone got a great deal on that one. I strictly look for the cards that I need and don't try to stockpile any cards. Even if they are low pop, I give others the opportunity to seize the moment and pick those up. I need that Barton, so I'll drop a bid on that and see if I can pick it up.
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
There's a couple I'll be bidding on but nothing any of the guys who are over 95 % need. I'm working on the set again but I won't be an aggressive player until I submit all my raw and see where I end up. Good luck guys !
Does anyone aside from me need the following cards....C.Short, H.Torres, WS Game 6, B.Barton IA, M.Pattin, T.Harmon & M.Stanley? All are on the 'Bay now and I'm looking to snipe on each unless someone needs them.
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
Neither I or Joe Maggio need any of thise cards.......
Bill Novick continues to amaze with his buying habits.........buying up just about everything with no regards to cost................( he did lose out on the OC Toby harrah card although he was will to pay $24.99 plus S/H)..................................
....Bill must know something that the rest of us do not.......
Collector of:Baseball 1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete - Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
This bit about collusion over bidding on certain cards may seem like a comrade in arms thing to you, but to me it is just opposite side of the shill coin. If it is ok for bidders to participate in collusion to keep bids low, there is no reason for a seller not to shill a bid to get the highest amount someone is willing to bid. I don't want to hear about ebay rules on shill bidding and that there is nothing about collusion [how could there be]. I'm talking about ethics 101. If a card is not truly going to be up for auction because of collusion, why shouldn't a seller just put it in his store and ask the price that he wants? A truly low pop card is going to bring out the bidders. Rick
I know it sounds like a good idea to you. Getting the most that I can for item seems like a good idea to me. [Paying my bills seems like a good idea to me.] The purpose of an auction is to hopefully maximize what you can get for an item. There is an element of risk for the seller that he might not get what he wants for an item that is balanced by the hope of getting more than expected because 2 or more people want the item and are willing to ante up for it. A seller puts up an item up for AUCTION starting at $9.99. The Gang of Four [or 6 or 8] decide that it's your turn to get this card and nobody else bids. No one else outside of this circle intrudes on this particular auction, but just in case you have entered a Max or snipe bid of $50. The seller figures that the card should fetch $50 or more and has a friend bid up or snipe to $49. The auction ends and you win the card for $50. What's the problem? Take out the shill bid and the card sells for $9.99. The seller is not happy and I feel that he has good reason not to be happy. After a few beatings like this, he has several options. He can continue like this and soon be out of business. Realistic options are to start the auction for what he wants for the card, in this case $50. He may or may not sell it you, but his ebay fees keep mounting. His other option is to put it in his ebay store and/or on his web page for $50 until someone decides to buy the card. This may take some more time, but it will happen. Rick
....and submitting our own cards and trading among ourselves takes away from your profits too..........................We will continue to do these things also.
Collector of:Baseball 1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete - Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Submit your own and experience the magic (or despair) of typing in the invoice number and seeing how much you'll be able to improve your own set. Nothing else like it!
Frank
Frank Bakka Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972 Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!
Joe Maggio just submitted some cards for me including a Gardner card that came back an 8. This card will soon be sitting in Joe's set at an inexpensive cost to him.
Collector of:Baseball 1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete - Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
<< <i>I know it sounds like a good idea to you. Getting the most that I can for item seems like a good idea to me. [Paying my bills seems like a good idea to me.] The purpose of an auction is to hopefully maximize what you can get for an item. There is an element of risk for the seller that he might not get what he wants for an item that is balanced by the hope of getting more than expected because 2 or more people want the item and are willing to ante up for it. A seller puts up an item up for AUCTION starting at $9.99. The Gang of Four [or 6 or 8] decide that it's your turn to get this card and nobody else bids. No one else outside of this circle intrudes on this particular auction, but just in case you have entered a Max or snipe bid of $50. The seller figures that the card should fetch $50 or more and has a friend bid up or snipe to $49. The auction ends and you win the card for $50. What's the problem? Take out the shill bid and the card sells for $9.99. The seller is not happy and I feel that he has good reason not to be happy. After a few beatings like this, he has several options. He can continue like this and soon be out of business. Realistic options are to start the auction for what he wants for the card, in this case $50. He may or may not sell it you, but his ebay fees keep mounting. His other option is to put it in his ebay store and/or on his web page for $50 until someone decides to buy the card. This may take some more time, but it will happen. Rick >>
I completely disagree with you. Shilling is unethical and starting auctions low is a MAJOR risk that the seller is apparently willing to take. This is not likely the way to maximize their sales on an aggregate level. It only costs a $0.30 additional to list at $24.99. If the card truly has a $50 value based on demand, these guys won't be playing nice with each other. The store option is the most realistic.
<< <i>Joe Maggio just submitted some cards for me including a Gardner card that came back an 8. This card will soon be sitting in Joe's set at an inexpensive cost to him. >>
This sounds like good idea too! Here's to great deals for me!
Magic? I got a PSA 4 on a 1970 Topps common in my last submission! How'd I do that? I spent days weeding out anything that didn't have a shot at the 7/8 range and yet I still get a 4!
no one is going to go after a few guys on this board for bid-rigging a $15 1972 Topps card. But it is still useful to know what is considered legal or illegal. Ethical or unethical is up to you to decide for yourself. I don't mind jay-walking even if it is illegal....but that's because I don't think it is unethical if there are no cars on the road.
And do us a favor, take all your '60s thru '70s commons in EX condition or less and BURN THEM!
Nice elitist attitude! There are a ton of collectors out there who think that these cards are just fine. I know that there is at least 1 board member who is also a member of OBC. I know that you have a hard time understanding why someone would want a card in less than perfect conditon. The funny thing is that many collectors of off grade cards think graded cards are another example of a fool and his money are soon parted. They have little need to worry about trimmed, bleached, etc. cards. There is room for everyone.
...and submitting our own cards and trading among ourselves takes away from your profits too..........................We will continue to do these things also.
You are missing the point. The question is of ethics and not economics. Why do you have such a hard on about the way I make my living?? Why do you want to take away from my profits? I'm delighted when you buy raw cards from me and they come back a grade that you are happy with!! It means that you will return and buy more cards. This is not an adversarial situation. I grade cards that I'm fairly sure are going to come back a grade that I can live with. The rest I sell raw. I object to someone who buys a group of cards that I have listed as NM+ and then complains to me because only 2/3rds of them came back as 8s!! True story
FB I experience the same thing when I submit cards and watch the page with the grades fill in. there is nothing quite like it. The grades actually have a little more impact on my life as I try and figure out my ROI. How mant times have I gambled with what financial cushion I have to buy raw cards? Waiting and hoping that 1 or two will be a tough 8 or any 9 or 10. It means that I will be able to pay my bills next month. It has taken me years to get to a point where I actually have $$$ to play with. A wrong step in years past could have easily meant disaster.
sagard
You missed the point in my 1st post. Ethics is exactly what we are talking about. Collusion is unethical in my world. If it is not in your world then shill bidding should not be. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You are correct. The ebay store is the alternative. Increasing your opening bid may not seem like a lot, but when your opening bids get up over $50 and you have quite a few of them, those fees start to add up. DSL & Setbuilders for example, do what I have done in the past; they start most of their auctions at around 70% SMR the 1st time around.
No It is not Tthe same Rick. I am not advocating shill bidding. What I detest is collusion and I have read about it often enough on this board to know that it happens frquently. It's the pot calling the kettle black. Please refer to my 1st post 1st sentence. " This bit about collusion over bidding on certain cards may seem like a comrade in arms thing to you, but to me it is just opposite side of the shill coin." If you can't see the truth to this, you are in trouble.
I think the point is being missed. I wouldn't go so far to say what's happening in this case is collusion, per se. I see it more as courtesy, followers of this thread know that both Jami and Arny are getting down the wire on the monster 72 set. If I decide not to bid on one of the 10 or so cards they need for the set because they need a card more than I do and are willing to pay more than me, how can that be wrong? It would be more prudent for me to go after the other 388 cards I need , especially since it would cost me between 300-500 bucks to win all of the tough cards up this week. I'd rather pick up 60 cheap 8's and wait for more Blues and Barton's to come down the pike.
We are not, by all means, the only 3 or 4 individuals that have access to purchase these cards. So, it's not like we are not giving the sellers an opportunity to sell it at a higher price. We are simply trying to avoid driving the price up on each when we have all spent at least in the neighborhood of $7K in putting this set together.
I know that when I sell my cards in my eBay store, I go ahead and place the price that I feel is appropriate for me on that card. Each seller has the option of placing the auction at a higher opening bid or placing it into an eBay store like thousands of folks do.
I really don't think that by the three or four of us taking turns and purchasing cards that are available that we are doing anything wrong. But, shill bidding IS unethical to me because you are inflating the price and directly affecting those that are willing to purchase the card by driving the price up with a 'fake' or alternate ID.
I understand what you are stating, but I simply don't agree with it.
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
I know none of you think that it is wrong. that is exactly my point and why I rarely use the auction format any more. I am trying to make a point of ethics. I see this "collusion" in other threads about other sets. Add it all together and it does potentially affect the bottom line for someone dealing in a variety of sets. I actually was talking with a customer on the phone some time ago and he actually told me "oh yeah, when you put up a new group from X set, there are 4 or 5 of us that get together and decide who is going to bid on what". I had been wondering why these cards had taken a precipitous drop in price. My solution was to raise my starting bids and also hold back cards until I saw new blood enter the set.
Divy1>"I had been wondering why these cards had taken a precipitous drop in price. My solution was to raise my starting bids and also hold back cards until I saw new blood enter the set."
Not that the dramatic increase in populations or the general decrease in demand would have anything to do with the drop in price, of course.
As for your continued point about bid-rigging vs. shill bidding. . .I think you may be on the right track in a way. If the seller sets the minimum/opening bit at a price he's willing to accept - even if he gets only one single bid. . .and. . .every bidder bids the maximum amount he's willing to pay. . .then NOONE can complain about collusion or shilling. From the seller side, he gets a price he can live with. . .and the bidder pays an amount he can live with.
The funny thing about the whole issue..........................this whole "collusion thing"...............has resulted in the guilty parties winning one auction ........as each of us were outbid on the other 5 or 6 auctions anyway.....
Collector of:Baseball 1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete - Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
I mean seriously. . .there was a time (before most of you started your 72 sets) when you couldn't touch 72T PSA8 commons for less than $12-$15 each. Now I have PSA9s that don't fetch an opening bid of $14.99. I have a hard time believing collusion is the reason for this.
BTW - Arny. . .lemme know when the Marshall arrives. Glad I could help.
I remember when the 9's were untouchable for under 35 bucks......it's simple supply and demand. If it weren't for another player I would be picking off every 8 I wanted for 5-6 bucks....and still feel like I'm overpaying.
I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on bid rigging auctions. At the end of the day, what you are doing is illegal. I copied the following for you from a legal dictionary:
Bid-Rigging is an illegal agreement between two or more competitors. It is a form of collusion, which is illegal in the United States. It is a form of price fixing and market allocation, and involves an agreement in which one party of a group of bidders will be designated to win the bid. It is often practised where contracts are determined by bid, for example with government construction contracts.
There are some very common bid-rigging practices:
Subcontract bid-rigging occurs where some of the conspirators agree not to submit bids, or to submit cover bids that are intended not to be successful, on the condition that some parts of the successful bidder's contract will be subcontracted to them. In this way, they "share the spoils" among themselves. Bid suppression occurs where some of the conspirators agree not to submit a bid so that another conspirator can successfully win the contract. Complementary bidding, also known as cover bidding or courtesy bidding, occurs where some of the bidders bid an amount knowing that it is too high or contains conditions that they know to be unacceptable to the agency calling for the bids. Bid rotation occurs where the bidders take turns being the designated successful bidder, for example, each conspirator is designated to be the successful bidder on certain contracts, while his or her co-conspirators are designated to win other contracts. This is a form of market allocation, where the conspirators allocate or apportion markets, products, customers or geographic territories among themselves, so that each will get a "fair share" of the total business, without having to truly compete with the others for that business. These forms of bid-rigging are not mutually exclusive of one another, and two or more of these practices could occur at the same time. For example, if one member of the bidding ring is designated to win a particular contract, his or her co-conspirators could avoid winning either by not bidding ("bid suppression"), or by submitting a high bid ("cover bidding").
Bid-rigging is a form of fraud, and almost always results in economic harm to the agency which is seeking the bids, and to the public, who ultimately bear the costs as taxpayers or consumers.
In the United States, bid-rigging is a criminal offence under section 1 of the Sherman Act. In Canada, it is a criminal offence under section 47 of the Competition Act. In the UK, individuals can be prosecuted criminally under the Enterprise Act. In Japan it is a violation of both the Anti-Monopoly Law as well as Public Law, but is rampant nationwide in construction and engineering works.
I doubt anyone would actually prosecute you for bid rigging baseball card auctions, but nonetheless, it is very foolish for you to do it (especially in an open forum where your agreements are recorded). If someone brought your posts to ebay's attention it would not surprise me if they would suspend you.
View my inventory of PSA Graded Cards at My Ebay Store
David> I understand what you're saying, but I would also argue that with regard to eBay bidding on a given issue of baseball cards the number of "conspirators" relative to the total number of potential bidders makes the chances of any "economic harm" on the part of the person requesting the bid statistically insignificant over the long term. 1972 Topps is probably the most striking example since it's one of the most actively pursued sets - and even then, we're talking what? Three "conspirators" at any given time? Four? Obviously, as an eBay seller, there's nothing I like more than a good old fashioned bidding war on my stuff. But if it doesn't happen, there are several other possibilities I think of before I get to conspiracy.
I won't say that it doesn't happen, because I know better. But I would say that there are other factors which cause significantly more "economic harm" to sellers - namely the runaway population explosion. . .gradeflation. . .general decrease in interest for the last several years. Yet, there seems to have been little interest from all parties in constructively addressing these issues. At least with the "bid rigging problem", the seller has direct control of some of the variables to affect a better result for themselves - namely adjusting opening bid prices, duration of auctions, attractive Buy-It-Nows, etc.
Mike, I agree with you somewhat. As you correctly stated, the reason why the prices for the average medium to high pop cards have dropped is because at this moment there is a very large supply relative to the number of buyers. I think sellers have a lot of control over this as well.
Everyone knows that quality raw cards from every year are drying up. It used to be much easier to find them than it is today. The supply is low because buyers are willing to pay huge prices for high end raw cards (especially unopened) to take a shot at finding some 10s and a big windfall.
When the raw cards are submitted to PSA, 95+% of the graded cards are 8s, 9s or worse. Most of the submissions come from submitters who need to get the cards on ebay ASAP to maintain their cash flow or guys who speculated on the cards and need to quickly get their money out. All of these cards then end up on ebay without any real thought as to who will buy them. Because of the rush, many cards sell for very low prices and guys on this board run around and say that the true value of the cards is what they can sell for on ebay. In actuallity, if most of these sellers had more patience and listed the cards with higher minimum prices or in ebay stores the prices would be a good bit higher.
People who put together registry sets fall into two general categories: (i) those who will keep their sets for the long run and (ii) those who will flip the sets within a short time of completing them. Over time, the people who fall into the first category (who I will call the "true collectors") will get around to working on additional sets. They are typically confined to working on a small number of sets at a time whether as a result of limited funds or limited time to spend in the hobby. Most 72 PSA 9s have a population of 25 or less. I find it hard to believe that in 5-10 years there will not be 25 true collectors who would like to have high end 72 sets. Given what has happened with raw cards I think the only real way to put together a high end set at that time will be buying graded cards.
With all of that said, the bid rigging going on for low pop cards is still illegal. It's not a matter of economic effect. The laws says that bidders can't collude in this format and that is exactly what is going on. The fact that it might not work, does not affect the illegality of the practice.
As I have maintained on these boards for a long time, I think 72 PSA 8s and 9s are a great value. I sold my primary set to free up some cash and take a profit on a large portion of the cards I purchased, but I still have a large number of 8s and 9s which I sell regularly in small lots to guys working on sets. I'm in no hurry to sell my remaining 72s and I periodically purchase more (I also have a large submission of high end 72s (mostly low pops) at PSA at this time).
View my inventory of PSA Graded Cards at My Ebay Store
After a few months of low balling 72's I have decided to put the set aside again. I had been winning "run of the mill" PSA 8's for around 5 bucks a pop and I have passed on more low end 8's than I have bid on . During the past few weeks Bill Novick has been my main competition , he is willing to pay more than I . I like Bill and I figure I'll get back in after he gets his fill. Bill will be bidding largely uncontested and the 50 cards I won last month at the 5.00 minimum bid wouldn't garner any bids this month. It will be interesting to see if the listings for psa 8's are less prolific in the next month.
Is Bill actually putting together ANOTHER set? He's done the set three times now and this would be his fourth if I recall correctly. Come on Bill, give us a chance!
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
<< <i>With all of that said, the bid rigging going on for low pop cards is still illegal. It's not a matter of economic effect. The laws says that bidders can't collude in this format and that is exactly what is going on. The fact that it might not work, does not affect the illegality of the practice. >>
More power to Bill if he is. I can't say I blame him, it 's a great set and alot of fun. It so easy to get caught up in the 72's with so many enthusiastic collectors of the set and I know if I go full bore my other pursuits will suffer.
The FBI is at the door....so i will have to make this post short.............I finally added a new card to my set............7 to go with two upgrades..my set has reached 99%
Thanks to whoever turned me in................I think I am going to have a cell mate named Bubba..........
Collector of:Baseball 1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete - Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Comments
That is kind of strange. He may be moving on to other sets. I'll touch base with him and se whatup...
Hey BarkusD - I thought you auctioned your set off. But, I see it still listed up in the Current category. Did it not hit the reserve you were looking for?
Frank
Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!
lynnfrank@earthlink.net
outerbankyank on eBay!
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
The dollars were ok for my set. I am considering rebuilding it using my doubles set as a foundation. I still have a large percentage of the set.
Good luck if you take the plunge again!
Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!
lynnfrank@earthlink.net
outerbankyank on eBay!
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
WaltDisneyBoards
I need a few of the cards, so let's figure out what we are bidding on so that everyone gets a fair shot (at lower prices hopefully
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
WaltDisneyBoards
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
WaltDisneyBoards
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Good luck guys !
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
It appears that Bill Novick is building a second set.
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
WaltDisneyBoards
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
WaltDisneyBoards
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
WaltDisneyBoards
Neither I or Joe Maggio need any of thise cards.......
Bill Novick continues to amaze with his buying habits.........buying up just about everything with no regards to cost................( he did lose out on the OC Toby harrah card although he was will to pay $24.99 plus S/H)..................................
....Bill must know something that the rest of us do not.......
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Rick
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
A seller puts up an item up for AUCTION starting at $9.99. The Gang of Four [or 6 or 8] decide that it's your turn to get this card and nobody else bids. No one else outside of this circle intrudes on this particular auction, but just in case you have entered a Max or snipe bid of $50. The seller figures that the card should fetch $50 or more and has a friend bid up or snipe to $49. The auction ends and you win the card for $50. What's the problem? Take out the shill bid and the card sells for $9.99. The seller is not happy and I feel that he has good reason not to be happy. After a few beatings like this, he has several options. He can continue like this and soon be out of business. Realistic options are to start the auction for what he wants for the card, in this case $50. He may or may not sell it you, but his ebay fees keep mounting. His other option is to put it in his ebay store and/or on his web page for $50 until someone decides to buy the card. This may take some more time, but it will happen.
Rick
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Submit your own and experience the magic (or despair) of typing in the invoice number and seeing how much you'll be able to improve your own set. Nothing else like it!
Frank
Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!
lynnfrank@earthlink.net
outerbankyank on eBay!
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
<< <i>I know it sounds like a good idea to you. Getting the most that I can for item seems like a good idea to me. [Paying my bills seems like a good idea to me.] The purpose of an auction is to hopefully maximize what you can get for an item. There is an element of risk for the seller that he might not get what he wants for an item that is balanced by the hope of getting more than expected because 2 or more people want the item and are willing to ante up for it.
A seller puts up an item up for AUCTION starting at $9.99. The Gang of Four [or 6 or 8] decide that it's your turn to get this card and nobody else bids. No one else outside of this circle intrudes on this particular auction, but just in case you have entered a Max or snipe bid of $50. The seller figures that the card should fetch $50 or more and has a friend bid up or snipe to $49. The auction ends and you win the card for $50. What's the problem? Take out the shill bid and the card sells for $9.99. The seller is not happy and I feel that he has good reason not to be happy. After a few beatings like this, he has several options. He can continue like this and soon be out of business. Realistic options are to start the auction for what he wants for the card, in this case $50. He may or may not sell it you, but his ebay fees keep mounting. His other option is to put it in his ebay store and/or on his web page for $50 until someone decides to buy the card. This may take some more time, but it will happen.
Rick >>
I completely disagree with you. Shilling is unethical and starting auctions low is a MAJOR risk that the seller is apparently willing to take. This is not likely the way to maximize their sales on an aggregate level. It only costs a $0.30 additional to list at $24.99. If the card truly has a $50 value based on demand, these guys won't be playing nice with each other. The store option is the most realistic.
<< <i>Joe Maggio just submitted some cards for me including a Gardner card that came back an 8. This card will soon be sitting in Joe's set at an inexpensive cost to him. >>
This sounds like good idea too! Here's to great deals for me!
<< <i> I'm talking about ethics 101.
Rick >>
Is this the same Rick that was involved in that nasty shill bidder debacle ?
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2001/jul/jul23a_01.html
no one is going to go after a few guys on this board for bid-rigging a $15 1972 Topps card. But it is still useful to know what is considered legal or illegal. Ethical or unethical is up to you to decide for yourself. I don't mind jay-walking even if it is illegal....but that's because I don't think it is unethical if there are no cars on the road.
Nice elitist attitude! There are a ton of collectors out there who think that these cards are just fine. I know that there is at least 1 board member who is also a member of OBC. I know that you have a hard time understanding why someone would want a card in less than perfect conditon. The funny thing is that many collectors of off grade cards think graded cards are another example of a fool and his money are soon parted. They have little need to worry about trimmed, bleached, etc. cards. There is room for everyone.
...and submitting our own cards and trading among ourselves takes away from your profits too..........................We will continue to do these things also.
You are missing the point. The question is of ethics and not economics. Why do you have such a hard on about the way I make my living?? Why do you want to take away from my profits? I'm delighted when you buy raw cards from me and they come back a grade that you are happy with!! It means that you will return and buy more cards. This is not an adversarial situation. I grade cards that I'm fairly sure are going to come back a grade that I can live with. The rest I sell raw. I object to someone who buys a group of cards that I have listed as NM+ and then complains to me because only 2/3rds of them came back as 8s!! True story
FB
I experience the same thing when I submit cards and watch the page with the grades fill in. there is nothing quite like it. The grades actually have a little more impact on my life as I try and figure out my ROI. How mant times have I gambled with what financial cushion I have to buy raw cards? Waiting and hoping that 1 or two will be a tough 8 or any 9 or 10. It means that I will be able to pay my bills next month. It has taken me years to get to a point where I actually have $$$ to play with. A wrong step in years past could have easily meant disaster.
sagard
You missed the point in my 1st post. Ethics is exactly what we are talking about. Collusion is unethical in my world. If it is not in your world then shill bidding should not be. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You are correct. The ebay store is the alternative. Increasing your opening bid may not seem like a lot, but when your opening bids get up over $50 and you have quite a few of them, those fees start to add up. DSL & Setbuilders for example, do what I have done in the past; they start most of their auctions at around 70% SMR the 1st time around.
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
What 72 cards do you have to sell us anyway?
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
It would be more prudent for me to go after the other 388 cards I need , especially since it would cost me between 300-500 bucks to win all of the tough cards up this week. I'd rather pick up 60 cheap 8's and wait for more Blues and Barton's to come down the pike.
I know that when I sell my cards in my eBay store, I go ahead and place the price that I feel is appropriate for me on that card. Each seller has the option of placing the auction at a higher opening bid or placing it into an eBay store like thousands of folks do.
I really don't think that by the three or four of us taking turns and purchasing cards that are available that we are doing anything wrong. But, shill bidding IS unethical to me because you are inflating the price and directly affecting those that are willing to purchase the card by driving the price up with a 'fake' or alternate ID.
I understand what you are stating, but I simply don't agree with it.
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
WaltDisneyBoards
Not that the dramatic increase in populations or the general decrease in demand would have anything to do with the drop in price, of course.
As for your continued point about bid-rigging vs. shill bidding. . .I think you may be on the right track in a way. If the seller sets the minimum/opening bit at a price he's willing to accept - even if he gets only one single bid. . .and. . .every bidder bids the maximum amount he's willing to pay. . .then NOONE can complain about collusion or shilling. From the seller side, he gets a price he can live with. . .and the bidder pays an amount he can live with.
Mike
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
BTW - Arny. . .lemme know when the Marshall arrives. Glad I could help.
Mike
If it weren't for another player I would be picking off every 8 I wanted for 5-6 bucks....and still feel like I'm overpaying.
Bid-Rigging is an illegal agreement between two or more competitors. It is a form of collusion, which is illegal in the United States. It is a form of price fixing and market allocation, and involves an agreement in which one party of a group of bidders will be designated to win the bid. It is often practised where contracts are determined by bid, for example with government construction contracts.
There are some very common bid-rigging practices:
Subcontract bid-rigging occurs where some of the conspirators agree not to submit bids, or to submit cover bids that are intended not to be successful, on the condition that some parts of the successful bidder's contract will be subcontracted to them. In this way, they "share the spoils" among themselves.
Bid suppression occurs where some of the conspirators agree not to submit a bid so that another conspirator can successfully win the contract.
Complementary bidding, also known as cover bidding or courtesy bidding, occurs where some of the bidders bid an amount knowing that it is too high or contains conditions that they know to be unacceptable to the agency calling for the bids.
Bid rotation occurs where the bidders take turns being the designated successful bidder, for example, each conspirator is designated to be the successful bidder on certain contracts, while his or her co-conspirators are designated to win other contracts. This is a form of market allocation, where the conspirators allocate or apportion markets, products, customers or geographic territories among themselves, so that each will get a "fair share" of the total business, without having to truly compete with the others for that business.
These forms of bid-rigging are not mutually exclusive of one another, and two or more of these practices could occur at the same time. For example, if one member of the bidding ring is designated to win a particular contract, his or her co-conspirators could avoid winning either by not bidding ("bid suppression"), or by submitting a high bid ("cover bidding").
Bid-rigging is a form of fraud, and almost always results in economic harm to the agency which is seeking the bids, and to the public, who ultimately bear the costs as taxpayers or consumers.
In the United States, bid-rigging is a criminal offence under section 1 of the Sherman Act. In Canada, it is a criminal offence under section 47 of the Competition Act. In the UK, individuals can be prosecuted criminally under the Enterprise Act. In Japan it is a violation of both the Anti-Monopoly Law as well as Public Law, but is rampant nationwide in construction and engineering works.
I doubt anyone would actually prosecute you for bid rigging baseball card auctions, but nonetheless, it is very foolish for you to do it (especially in an open forum where your agreements are recorded). If someone brought your posts to ebay's attention it would not surprise me if they would suspend you.
I won't say that it doesn't happen, because I know better. But I would say that there are other factors which cause significantly more "economic harm" to sellers - namely the runaway population explosion. . .gradeflation. . .general decrease in interest for the last several years. Yet, there seems to have been little interest from all parties in constructively addressing these issues. At least with the "bid rigging problem", the seller has direct control of some of the variables to affect a better result for themselves - namely adjusting opening bid prices, duration of auctions, attractive Buy-It-Nows, etc.
Mike
I agree with you somewhat. As you correctly stated, the reason why the prices for the average medium to high pop cards have dropped is because at this moment there is a very large supply relative to the number of buyers. I think sellers have a lot of control over this as well.
Everyone knows that quality raw cards from every year are drying up. It used to be much easier to find them than it is today. The supply is low because buyers are willing to pay huge prices for high end raw cards (especially unopened) to take a shot at finding some 10s and a big windfall.
When the raw cards are submitted to PSA, 95+% of the graded cards are 8s, 9s or worse. Most of the submissions come from submitters who need to get the cards on ebay ASAP to maintain their cash flow or guys who speculated on the cards and need to quickly get their money out. All of these cards then end up on ebay without any real thought as to who will buy them. Because of the rush, many cards sell for very low prices and guys on this board run around and say that the true value of the cards is what they can sell for on ebay. In actuallity, if most of these sellers had more patience and listed the cards with higher minimum prices or in ebay stores the prices would be a good bit higher.
People who put together registry sets fall into two general categories: (i) those who will keep their sets for the long run and (ii) those who will flip the sets within a short time of completing them. Over time, the people who fall into the first category (who I will call the "true collectors") will get around to working on additional sets. They are typically confined to working on a small number of sets at a time whether as a result of limited funds or limited time to spend in the hobby. Most 72 PSA 9s have a population of 25 or less. I find it hard to believe that in 5-10 years there will not be 25 true collectors who would like to have high end 72 sets. Given what has happened with raw cards I think the only real way to put together a high end set at that time will be buying graded cards.
With all of that said, the bid rigging going on for low pop cards is still illegal. It's not a matter of economic effect. The laws says that bidders can't collude in this format and that is exactly what is going on. The fact that it might not work, does not affect the illegality of the practice.
As I have maintained on these boards for a long time, I think 72 PSA 8s and 9s are a great value. I sold my primary set to free up some cash and take a profit on a large portion of the cards I purchased, but I still have a large number of 8s and 9s which I sell regularly in small lots to guys working on sets. I'm in no hurry to sell my remaining 72s and I periodically purchase more (I also have a large submission of high end 72s (mostly low pops) at PSA at this time).
A++ Please go to the head of the class. You nailed every point perfectly!
It will be interesting to see if the listings for psa 8's are less prolific in the next month.
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
WaltDisneyBoards
<< <i>With all of that said, the bid rigging going on for low pop cards is still illegal. It's not a matter of economic effect. The laws says that bidders can't collude in this format and that is exactly what is going on. The fact that it might not work, does not affect the illegality of the practice. >>
If bid rigging is illegal maybe we should charge Fogel Merkel and Hall
Since Marshall is a lawyer Im sure he is quite confident its not illegal.
Every PSA set i have ever worked on i have developed friendships and made deals to not bid against one another
It so easy to get caught up in the 72's with so many enthusiastic collectors of the set and I know if I go full bore my other pursuits will suffer.
Thanks to whoever turned me in................I think I am going to have a cell mate named Bubba..........
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete