<< <i>David A++ Please go to the head of the class. You nailed every point perfectly! >>
Intent will always be measured, though you may not want it to be. You can not force friends to run each other up. The stuff Dave was quoting sounds like building contracts, though technically you could apply it to auctions. Good luck.
Dave is spot on about the idea of higher minimums. To me the most successful long term dealers will rely on the quality of their product and not depend on exuberant bidders to run their hammer price up. You see this with the people you mentioned as well has 707, Mickeys, BBX, and dozens of others.
Running $9.99 Ebay auctions is a major risk with $50 items. Again if the demand warranted it, these "friends" will turn on each other.
David & Divy> What if the 4 or 5 largest dealers of a certain issue got together and decided they were not going to list any PSA8s for less than X price and no PSA9s start for less than Y price. Would that be equally problematic?
I've always wondered why dealers of 70s material allowed prices to drop so dramatically. As Dave mentioned, for the last few years a great many collectors have become convinced that 72T 8s have a value of say $5 and PSA9s a value of say $15. I think that's crap. It's only because they've been allowed to pay that little - not because it's what the stuff is truly worth. People often tell me that 72T 8s are worth $5 or $6 because "that's what they go for on eBay". So they've been allowed to believe that dealers/sellers should take a loss on 8s (assuming grading fees at $4.50-$5.00 plus shipping). I've often wondered what would happen if the most significant dealers of 70s stuff independently came to the realization that they should raise their opening bid. I strongly feel that virtually all of the people who claimed that they were only worth $5 or $6, would still want the cards badly enough to pay $9 or $10 each. They just haven't been made to.
The cards are worth 5 and 15 bucks if that is what they are going for on EBAY. If they are a bargain more people would jump on them and eventually they would go up in value. The problem is that many of the collectors on here already have the cards for a set so there isnt more of a demand for them. Without some of the people that are buying tons of the cards many would have gone unsold even at the 5 and 15 dollar levels. Add to that a 9 with a low population today will probably go down as more and more people send in cards to be graded. How many times have you purchased a low pop card only to find it isnt the low pop it was 2-3 years ago. EBAY is the ultimate price guide in my opinion. Yes you may get a bargain here or there and you may over pay as well but in the long term it is truer than any price guide that exists today.
Interesting point Mike, recently a pretty big seller and a heck of nice guy listed over hundred 72 psa 8 with starting bids of 9.99 and a week later a 100 card psa 8 lot was born. As you well know, buying those big lots of 8's is a better deal than picking up individual hi pop 8's for 5 bucks. I think the big submitters of 70's stuff are making their money on 9's and 10's and it's no secret to PSA either, but that's for another thread. With sellers like Sirius, DSL, and 4sc I can only imagine that there is a great incentive to just keep sending cards to PSA. Do a search of the sellers I mentioned 72 T auctions . I have never seen so much crap in 8 holders...truth be told i wouldn't want half of those cards for free. I don't think I'd be willing to pay 10 bucks for an 8 with a high pop, especially if there are over 15 of them in 9 holders. Could there really be , or will there ever be 100 people looking for a nm-mt or mint 1972 Amos Otis, Rich Chiles or Frank Luchessi in the wide world ? I think it's as simple as supply and demand. If there are 4 or 5 sellers sitting on a few hundred 8's , eventually they will try to under sell the other rather than sit on the cards.
beach> "The cards are worth 5 and 15 bucks if that is what they are going for on EBAY". While that's what they're going for on eBay, my point was that that's only the case because many dealers chose to list 8s with opening bids of say $4.99. My question was what if dealers didn't do that and all the major sellers mentioned by lowsmartmick started all their 72T PSA8s at $9.99? Suddenly, you coudln't buy 72T PSA8s for less than $9.99 - thereby changing "what they are going for on eBay". I would argue that a high percentage of the same people who have been picking up 8s for $4.99 would really be willing to pay $9.99 each - they just haven't had to.
I think anyone who does any 70s material can agree that the market/realized prices are down significantly from where they were in say 2001. Understanable, considering the supply is up and the demand is down a bit. However, I don't feel this is only reason for the drop in prices. I believe that another reason prices are down is because dealers like 4SC chose to blow out the 8s at below cost. To a point, this is understandable when looked at in the context of the numbers game. Mass submitters make something, anything, on the 8s and then use the 9s and 10s to fill in the valleys and keep the average price realized per card up. However, a consequence of this is an artificial price deflation of the PSA8. As lowsmartmick alluded, this not-so-coincidentally dovetails with the prevalence of gradeflation.
So beach, I fully realize that prices of 70s PSA8s are down - given the increase in population and decrease in demand, that's to be expected. What I have more of a problem with is the artifical price deflation caused by gradeflation. I would say that eBay should be the "ultimate price guide". But with gradeflation, collusion, or anything else that artifically inflates or deflates the market, it can't be an "ultimate price guide". A place for sellers and bidders to do their thing, yes. A true, free and open market, no.
Great, now the FBI's going to be knocking on my door if I don't bid on every psa-graded 1972 card on eBay. I should just turn myself in and save the government the time and effort of the extensive manhunt that is sure to follow.
You don't have to be a attorney to see that the bid-rigging argument doesn't apply here. Is it collusion? Absolutely, if what you think is happening is actually happening, but I don't see it. I bid on what I want to bid on regardless of who else wants it. I'm not fortunate enough to have unlimited disposable income, so when 200 PSA 9's show up at $14.99+ each, I know I can't buy them all. One of the factors I use to decide which ones to bid on is sometimes the identity of the other bidder(s). I'll let some go buy and bid on others. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I know that I'll never outbid lmayer or slfu88. Is it now a crime to throw in the towel when I see their ID's in the High Bidder spot?
A better question would be what would you call it when sellers bid on cards with the intention of keeping their prices artificially inflated? Price Fixing? I remember seeing someone bid $100 on a PSA 8 1973 Henderson card when already had two for sale on another site for the same $100.
Or how about another collector telling me that if I sold him a card out of my registry set, he'd stop bidding against me for other cards I need? Extortion?
Yeah, those '72s are going for some wacky prices....Bob Barton IA for over $100? Same with Terry Harmon? Wow.
I managed to pick up the Chris Short card and the Marty Pattin cards that I needed though. Paid too much, but it was a 'treat' for me selling one of my big dollar cards and I was able to bid a little higher than I wanted to.
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
Wow, the Mickey Stanley is now up over $150 for the PSA 8! Looks like Bill REALLY wants that one! Sorry Zef, gonna have to bow out of the race at this point. I hope you get MUCH more for it!
For those of you interested, I put some PSA 9s for the '72s for sale in my eBay store. Anyone that makes mention of our '72 Thread gets 20% off of the price(s)!
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
Arny, probably a good call to wait on the Stanley. I sent a few really nice low pop 72s to PSA in my big submission and the Stanley is one of them. Only concern for you is that it could be a 9. It is really nice.
View my inventory of PSA Graded Cards at My Ebay Store
For those interested, this is a list of the cards in my current submission:
Card # First Name Last Name Quantity 6 Fred Scherman 1 9 Stan Williams 1 44 Rick Wise I/A 1 85 NL Batting Leaders 1 86 AL Batting Leaders 1 92 AL ERA Leaders 1 103 Checklist 2nd Series 1 116 Ed Farmer 1 125 Dave Cash 1 146 Steve Kealey 1 150 Norm Cash 1 160 Andy Messersmith 1 164 Tug McGraw 1 165 Chris Speier 1 176 Tom Haller In Action 1 179 Dock Ellis 1 217 Roger Metzger 1 231 Casey Cox 1 234 Ron Taylor 1 247 Milt May 1 249 Harry Walker 1 259 Sparky Lyle 1 266 Bobby Bolin 1 273 Bobby Floyd 1 274 Al Severinsen 1 279 Larry Brown 1 283 Darrell Brandon 1 293 Danny Frisella 1 294 Danny Frisella In Action 1 296 Dick Dietz I/A 1 348 Sal Band BHP 1 355 Bob Watson 1 360 Dave Roberts 1 385 Mickey Stanley 1 386 Jim Colborn 2 397 Phillies Team 1 399 Milt Wilcox 2 401 Jim Nash 1 425 Ken Singleton 1 461 Tim Cullen 1 472 Phillies Gagliano 1 474 Orioles Rookie Stars 1 476 Lee Richard 1 493 Bob Bailey BHP 1 496 Bud Harrelson BHP 1 513 Lindy McDaniel 1 520 Larry Bowa 1 526 Bob Bailey 1 540 Felix Millan 1 542 Jack Billingham 1 544 Ted Martinez 1 546 Joe Hague 1 575 Al Oliver 1 582 Expos Team 1 617 Royals Team 1 618 Rich Robertson 1 623 Cy Young Award 1 651 Reds Team 1 655 Jerry Grote 1 658 Steve Dunning 2 661 Bill Virdon 1 663 Fran Healy 1 748 Phil Hennigan 1
View my inventory of PSA Graded Cards at My Ebay Store
The prices for 8's are really jumping, the strongest I've seen in years. I guess I should thank Bill Novick for outbidding me on around 50 cards.... , I'll wait to buy low.
Dave ,
Are all those cards "virgin" submissions or crackouts?
"I have a ton of cards to crack out, but have not had time to do it."
I was just curious how many a ton of cards is? What percentage of cards graded do you think are submitted more than once? How overstated are the pop reports. It seems a shame to me that cards need to be sumbitted multiple times to get the grade the submitters feel they deserve. You appear to be a large dealer in PSA cards, hoping you can enlighten me.
This is all very troubling to a newbie like me to CU and PSA, I question the consistency and the reliability of this product.
Doug brings up a point that we've talked about a couple of times on this thread. Can we possibly figure out the 'true' pop of some of these low pop cards? Other than polling the CU active members, I don't see a way to do it.
Which could mean that some of those low pop cards are actually 'rare' compared to some of the others.
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
I agree that the pop report is not accurate. Fortunately, it can only overstate the number of low pops and not understate them.
With regard to the cards I have to crack out, most of the cards are in GAI, BVG and SGC holders. The cards just don't sell well in those holders. I purchased some large lots of 56s and 75s-79s in SGC and GAI holders. The cards are super nice, but there is just no demand for those holders. People only seem to want those cards for registry sets. I need to take the time to crack all of them out and submit them to PSA.
With respect to 72s, Jim was asking me about crack outs because he knows that I bought some very high end examples of grades some time ago from a collector who sold his set and there are some regrade candidates in that group. Most of those cards sold in my registry set so I do not have too many, but I still have a few.
I also have a large number of HOFs that I need to cross.
I happen to be a proponent of PSA's grading. Generally, I think they do a very good job. Throwing out the mistakes (that every grading company is bound to have), the fact is that there are cards that under PSAs standards are borderline between grades. A tough grader might give the lower grade and an easier grader might give the higher one. Without half grades there are opportunities for upgrades. With that said, for the most part they are not that common and I have never had a card jump more than one grade.
View my inventory of PSA Graded Cards at My Ebay Store
Arny , It's probably an impossible task at this point. From a personal standpoint I know that I have resubmitted a bunch of the tough ones including a Gardner, McRae IA, Reds Rookies, Barton IA, Houk Expos Rookies (used to be tough) and a Marshall in hopes of getting an 8 to 9 bump. I would suspect that the Marshall that was recently won on ebay may be headed back for a second look. I also know that a particular PSA 8 Gardner was resubmitted 3x. Thats not to say that most of the tough 8's were resubmitted because sometimes those 8's have centering issues that would keep it out of 9 holder or in some cases those cards were bumped from 7's to 8's or were weak 8's to begin with. I was able to bump a Blue IA from a 7 to an 8 and submitted an Aaron IA to use has a place holder 7, when it came back as 8 I was stunned. That's not to mention all the high end 8's of stars that were resubmitted. I had success in bumping a Clemente, Yaz, both Munsons a Seaver and a Carew. Early on it made a lot more sense to resubmit commons because the pops in PSA 9 were so low. Today most 9's are not out of reach for the average collector but there was a time when submitting or resubmitting was the best option for some. It no longer makes sense to resubmit most cards because it can often be cheaper to look for a bargain on a higher pop 9. When cards are cracked if the flip is sent back to PSA the pop report should be adjusted, it 's not always the case. There is also an "Urban Legend" that if one were to send back too many flips then their subsequent submissions would be looked at more harshly. Personally I don't buy into that theory. It's also well known that many dealers (collectors too) will try to "maximize grades" by resubmitting until it no longer makes financial sense to do so. PSA is also aware of this and they really don't care because it contributes to their bottom line. As far as the 72's go it's my opinion that the Kendall, Gardner , Expos Team Card and Mc Rae IA have truly stood the test of time. It's also interesting to note that at one point the Schaal IA and Blue IA seemed to be the toughest cards and were "talked up" on these boards , their notoriety seemed to have brought out more. You could probably count the Dunning among them too, after three of them sold for around 100 bucks to the same collector and were "talked up" more followed. Casual followers of the set may not appreciate just how tough the Kendall or the Houk really are (at least at this point) and may not be inclined to submit them. Another factor is that as of late PSA has seemed to loosen there standards at least as far as centering for 8's go, just take alook at the horrible looking 8's that are all over ebay, courtesy of 4sc and the like. It will be interesting to see if the recent astounding sale of the 72 Reds Rookie card in PSA 9 will bring more out of the woodwork, maybe not 9's but I'm sure we will see a spike in 8's. If I had a PSA 8 Reds Rookie that had a remote chance of getting a 9 I'd be sending it back again and again...especially for a 5 dollar grading fee.
Jami you're right about those three, pretty tough cards. there are also the 'sleepers" like Drabowsky, Randle, Santorini. The Norm Cash too, no way the pop report on that one is accurate.
All it takes is a few bidders to drive prices of commons. I notice a couple of new players and an old player or two making crazy bids . Also, you can't underestimate the popularity of the set once it's in your blood it's tough to walk away.
"Crazy" is the key word here. I used to think some of the over-the-top bids were being made by people who didn't have access to the pop reports, but I don't think that's the case now. Two new guys (one with two ID's) and one veteran are bidding like mad. I'm glad I'm up 99%, 'cause some of the prices for commons are nuts. Hopefully, the surge in '72 prices will bump up some of the low pops for the rest of us!
I'm just setting my snipe prices and hoping. If not, oh well. I'll wait until the next one comes along. I'm glad for the sellers and I'm sure that the big submission folks are noticing the prices being realized and are sending those potential PSA 8 and 9 cards in soon.
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
Since it's possible I might be one of the "old players" mentioned above (I'm only 47, BTW!) I thought I'd drop a note on what I've been doing, in essence to just get my set to an even 8.50 GPA for now. I did the same for my 1973 set.
I'm now in sole possession of the fourth current best spot, and might eventually edge up toward 8.75, but it's not a real priority as I'm currently mostly focused on upgrading my 1933 Goudey and similar vintage sets.
I'll have some PSA 8 NQ dupes available soon if anyone has any interest.
When everything arrives, here's what I'll have abvailable: #52, 225, 487, 492 (these two are being replaced by the two corresponding 9's I bought from you recently), 539, 581, 694, 771.
I guess you wasn't thrilled about my offer on the Morgan Traded PSA 9, but if you need any of these cards, we can talk about using them in a possible cash/card deal for the Morgan, which itself will free up a PSA 8.
#40 - Bob Barton IA #150 - Norm Cash #228 - WS Game 6 (Have a PSA 7) #230 - World Series (Have a PSA 7) #292 - Hal McRae IA #296 - Dick Dietz IA #322 - Jose Pena #377 - Terry Harmon #385 - Mickey Stanley #438 - Maury Wills IA #532 - Fred Kendall (Have a PSA 9oc) #533 - Ralph Houk #582 - Montreal Expos Team Card (Have a PSA 7) #645 - Jim Maloney #666 - Hector Torres #670 - Ken Holtzman (Have a PSA 7) #708 - Tim Foli IA #720 - Sam McDowell #723 - Al Santorini #734 - Bob Burda #787 - Ron Reed
.....so, if anyone has any to help me...send me a PM or post here!
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
#150 - Norm Cash #292 - Hal McRae In Action* #300 - Hank Aaron In Action #443 - Ken Henderson* #532 - Fred Kendall #582 - Montreal Expos Team Card #708 - Tim Foli In Action* #723 - Al Santorini* #757 - Jose Cardenal Traded*
*I'm interested in cheap PSA 7 NQ on these if I can't get an 8 or 9.
....and since we are talking about cards that we need to finish our sets.
Here is my short list:
#182 - Ed Kranepool IA #230 - World Series #296 - Dick Dietz IA #300 - Hank Aaron IA #312 - Clay Carroll IA #518 - Wayne Garrett #582 - Montreal Expos Team Card #667 - Ray Newman
HELP ME!!!
Collector of:Baseball 1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete - Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
That 230 World Series Card is very tough. It was one of the last cards I found to complete my set. Barnett's Sportscards listed one on ebay and I immediately contacted him. I offered $50 if he would sell me the card and cancel the listing. We made a deal and he charged my credit card for the $50 (it was a debit card and I could view the charge in my online account). The next day I get an email from him that he has decided not to sell me the card because he could get more for it (I still have the email). After getting very pissed off, I calmed down and wrote him an email explaining that we had a completed sale and that he can't go back on the deal. I needed the card badly because I had already worked out my deal with Memory Lane to list my 3 sets on ebay and by that point I had also made a deal with Bill for the Expos Team card, which was the last card I needed for that set. I ended up paying Loren Barnett $200 for the World Series Card. He is a total scum bag and I will never have dealings with him again.
Card 230 is from the 2nd series. It may be the most valuable card in that series because of its scarcity. I group of 18 GAI graded 2nd series packs just went for about $1,900 with Buyer's premium in the Goodwin & Co. auction. I was tempted to buy the packs, but I don't think there is enough value in that series to make the packs a reasonable buy. Hopefully for guys looking to complete the set, the buyer will crack the packs and submit the cards. With 18 wax packs there is a good chance that there will be at least one card 230 worthy of PSA 8.
View my inventory of PSA Graded Cards at My Ebay Store
Card 230 is from the 2nd series. It may be the most valuable card in that series because of its scarcity. I group of 18 GAI graded 2nd series packs just went for about $1,900 with Buyer's premium in the Goodwin & Co. auction. I was tempted to buy the packs, but I don't think there is enough value in that series to make the packs a reasonable buy. Hopefully for guys looking to complete the set, the buyer will crack the packs and submit the cards. With 18 wax packs there is a good chance that there will be at least one card 230 worthy of PSA 8. >>
David-
I made what I considered to be a BIG mistake in regard to unopened. My wife paid around 3300.00 for an unopened box of series 3 wax from BBCEX , she surprised me with it because I was gawking at it so much. I figured it would be a money maker and ripped them all. I had visions of a Mc rae IA, Aaron IA, Dietz IA , Clemente IA in PSA 9, didn't happen NO gradeable Mcrae IA or Aaron IA (3or 4 OC's), I did manage a decent amount of 8 & 9's of some cards including a regular Clemente in PSA 9 ,but no 10's. The box was as fresh as could be , but after throwing out 2 cards per pack because of the gum damge and the ton of OC's the pickings were slim. It's a gamble and the odds aren't all that great. It was a thrill to rip those packs though..... BTW, that was a sh@##y thing Barnett's did to you. I would never buy from them.
Since I rarely get to brag... I picked up my PSA 8 NQ #230 World Series Celebration from a "Buy-It-Now" auction for $30 about a year ago. I think it was only up for about 30 minutes when I saw it!
I like to think we are all friends here............so I want to admit to something being that you brought it up..........
I saw the listing for the 230 World Series card from barnett cards..........and then i saw that the listing was gone...........I sent barnett an email saying that I hope they were getting a good price for the card because it was one of the most sought after cards in the set............
...This would explain why they became A-holes about selling to you.............sorry if I cost you more money!!!
Jami
Collector of:Baseball 1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete - Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Picked up the Maloney that I needed. So, now the updated list stands as follows.....
need the following in PSA 8....
#40 - Bob Barton IA #150 - Norm Cash #228 - WS Game 6 (Have a PSA 7) #230 - World Series (Have a PSA 7) #292 - Hal McRae IA #296 - Dick Dietz IA #322 - Jose Pena #377 - Terry Harmon #385 - Mickey Stanley #438 - Maury Wills IA #532 - Fred Kendall (Have a PSA 9oc) #533 - Ralph Houk #582 - Montreal Expos Team Card (Have a PSA 7) #666 - Hector Torres #670 - Ken Holtzman (Have a PSA 7) #708 - Tim Foli IA #720 - Sam McDowell #723 - Al Santorini #734 - Bob Burda #787 - Ron Reed
.....so, if anyone has any to help me...send me a PM or post here!
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
It's true Mike. I wasn't looking into the future much when I started this set. I had no idea that I would get to this point that quickly and when David (Barkus) would be picking up those lower pops with big bids, I would sit back and watch and pick up many commons for the same price. Well, now I get towards the end and here I need some of those toughies!
The good thing is that I have had help from a lot of fellow '72ers and have picked up many low pops. For instance, when David needed to finish his set and one of the last ones needed was the elusive McCrae IA, I made a deal with him and picked up many low pop cards (Blue IA, Henderson & more).
* '72 BASEBALL #15 100% * C. PASCUAL BASIC #3 * T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100% * L. TIANT BASIC #1 * DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100% * MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3 * PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1 * '65 DISNEYLAND #2 * '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6 * '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
Sometime in the next few weeks, ( as the National is coming up) PSA will be announcing its new inductees into the PSA Set registry Hall OF Fame.........................I think it is high time that our own Frank Bakka be inducted into this illustrious group....................Hopefully by this time he has been contacted for this honor...........................................if he hasn't then PSA don't know chit.
Frank's set has been the long time leader in our set and by a long margin.....................and Frank is a fine gentlemen and a large asset to our particular set.................Frank is first class in my book!!
Eventually, when Eric Olander gets those last few PSA 9s, his set should also be so honored.
Thanks guys for giving us all something to aspire to.........
Jami
Collector of:Baseball 1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete - Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Here, here....FB's set is certainly one worthy of the honor. His set is head and shoulders above the field. Out of the pack there is only one set that may eventually get close.
<< <i>Here, here....FB's set is certainly one worthy of the honor. His set is head and shoulders above the field. Out of the pack there is only one set that may eventually get close. >>
...but that set is still YEARS away...and Frank will keep adding....
Collector of:Baseball 1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete - Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Comments
<< <i>David
A++ Please go to the head of the class. You nailed every point perfectly! >>
Intent will always be measured, though you may not want it to be. You can not force friends to run each other up. The stuff Dave was quoting sounds like building contracts, though technically you could apply it to auctions. Good luck.
Dave is spot on about the idea of higher minimums. To me the most successful long term dealers will rely on the quality of their product and not depend on exuberant bidders to run their hammer price up. You see this with the people you mentioned as well has 707, Mickeys, BBX, and dozens of others.
Running $9.99 Ebay auctions is a major risk with $50 items. Again if the demand warranted it, these "friends" will turn on each other.
I've always wondered why dealers of 70s material allowed prices to drop so dramatically. As Dave mentioned, for the last few years a great many collectors have become convinced that 72T 8s have a value of say $5 and PSA9s a value of say $15. I think that's crap. It's only because they've been allowed to pay that little - not because it's what the stuff is truly worth. People often tell me that 72T 8s are worth $5 or $6 because "that's what they go for on eBay". So they've been allowed to believe that dealers/sellers should take a loss on 8s (assuming grading fees at $4.50-$5.00 plus shipping). I've often wondered what would happen if the most significant dealers of 70s stuff independently came to the realization that they should raise their opening bid. I strongly feel that virtually all of the people who claimed that they were only worth $5 or $6, would still want the cards badly enough to pay $9 or $10 each. They just haven't been made to.
Mike
I think the big submitters of 70's stuff are making their money on 9's and 10's and it's no secret to PSA either, but that's for another thread.
With sellers like Sirius, DSL, and 4sc I can only imagine that there is a great incentive to just keep sending cards to PSA. Do a search of the sellers I mentioned 72 T auctions . I have never seen so much crap in 8 holders...truth be told i wouldn't want half of those cards for free.
I don't think I'd be willing to pay 10 bucks for an 8 with a high pop, especially if there are over 15 of them in 9 holders.
Could there really be , or will there ever be 100 people looking for a nm-mt or mint 1972 Amos Otis, Rich Chiles or Frank Luchessi in the wide world ?
I think it's as simple as supply and demand. If there are 4 or 5 sellers sitting on a few hundred 8's , eventually they will try to under sell the other rather than sit on the cards.
I think anyone who does any 70s material can agree that the market/realized prices are down significantly from where they were in say 2001. Understanable, considering the supply is up and the demand is down a bit. However, I don't feel this is only reason for the drop in prices. I believe that another reason prices are down is because dealers like 4SC chose to blow out the 8s at below cost. To a point, this is understandable when looked at in the context of the numbers game. Mass submitters make something, anything, on the 8s and then use the 9s and 10s to fill in the valleys and keep the average price realized per card up. However, a consequence of this is an artificial price deflation of the PSA8. As lowsmartmick alluded, this not-so-coincidentally dovetails with the prevalence of gradeflation.
So beach, I fully realize that prices of 70s PSA8s are down - given the increase in population and decrease in demand, that's to be expected. What I have more of a problem with is the artifical price deflation caused by gradeflation. I would say that eBay should be the "ultimate price guide". But with gradeflation, collusion, or anything else that artifically inflates or deflates the market, it can't be an "ultimate price guide". A place for sellers and bidders to do their thing, yes. A true, free and open market, no.
Mike
You don't have to be a attorney to see that the bid-rigging argument doesn't apply here. Is it collusion? Absolutely, if what you think is happening is actually happening, but I don't see it. I bid on what I want to bid on regardless of who else wants it. I'm not fortunate enough to have unlimited disposable income, so when 200 PSA 9's show up at $14.99+ each, I know I can't buy them all. One of the factors I use to decide which ones to bid on is sometimes the identity of the other bidder(s). I'll let some go buy and bid on others. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I know that I'll never outbid lmayer or slfu88. Is it now a crime to throw in the towel when I see their ID's in the High Bidder spot?
A better question would be what would you call it when sellers bid on cards with the intention of keeping their prices artificially inflated? Price Fixing? I remember seeing someone bid $100 on a PSA 8 1973 Henderson card when already had two for sale on another site for the same $100.
Or how about another collector telling me that if I sold him a card out of my registry set, he'd stop bidding against me for other cards I need? Extortion?
<< <i>Jami, do you have a Pena 8? I saw you biddin' on the 9. If you get that 9, can I do a deal with you on the 8? >>
Sorry Arny , but no Pena 9 for me as Bnovick was willing to pay more.........
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
I managed to pick up the Chris Short card and the Marty Pattin cards that I needed though. Paid too much, but it was a 'treat' for me selling one of my big dollar cards and I was able to bid a little higher than I wanted to.
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For those of you interested, I put some PSA 9s for the '72s for sale in my eBay store. Anyone that makes mention of our '72 Thread gets 20% off of the price(s)!
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* L. TIANT BASIC #1
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* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
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1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Card # First Name Last Name Quantity
6 Fred Scherman 1
9 Stan Williams 1
44 Rick Wise I/A 1
85 NL Batting Leaders 1
86 AL Batting Leaders 1
92 AL ERA Leaders 1
103 Checklist 2nd Series 1
116 Ed Farmer 1
125 Dave Cash 1
146 Steve Kealey 1
150 Norm Cash 1
160 Andy Messersmith 1
164 Tug McGraw 1
165 Chris Speier 1
176 Tom Haller In Action 1
179 Dock Ellis 1
217 Roger Metzger 1
231 Casey Cox 1
234 Ron Taylor 1
247 Milt May 1
249 Harry Walker 1
259 Sparky Lyle 1
266 Bobby Bolin 1
273 Bobby Floyd 1
274 Al Severinsen 1
279 Larry Brown 1
283 Darrell Brandon 1
293 Danny Frisella 1
294 Danny Frisella In Action 1
296 Dick Dietz I/A 1
348 Sal Band BHP 1
355 Bob Watson 1
360 Dave Roberts 1
385 Mickey Stanley 1
386 Jim Colborn 2
397 Phillies Team 1
399 Milt Wilcox 2
401 Jim Nash 1
425 Ken Singleton 1
461 Tim Cullen 1
472 Phillies Gagliano 1
474 Orioles Rookie Stars 1
476 Lee Richard 1
493 Bob Bailey BHP 1
496 Bud Harrelson BHP 1
513 Lindy McDaniel 1
520 Larry Bowa 1
526 Bob Bailey 1
540 Felix Millan 1
542 Jack Billingham 1
544 Ted Martinez 1
546 Joe Hague 1
575 Al Oliver 1
582 Expos Team 1
617 Royals Team 1
618 Rich Robertson 1
623 Cy Young Award 1
651 Reds Team 1
655 Jerry Grote 1
658 Steve Dunning 2
661 Bill Virdon 1
663 Fran Healy 1
748 Phil Hennigan 1
Dave ,
Are all those cards "virgin" submissions or crackouts?
<< <i>The ending price on that Stanley card was just STUPID!!!.................I am sure Zef is happy though.
Yep. I was a little surprised by that one.
My Auctions
<< <i>
<< <i>The ending price on that Stanley card was just STUPID!!!.................I am sure Zef is happy though.
Yep. I was a little surprised by that one. >>
...and to think my Stanley PSA 8 cost me $2.61 raw and was graded free by PSA as part of my 75% completion freebies...
NYUK.......NYUK......
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
"I have a ton of cards to crack out, but have not had time to do it."
I was just curious how many a ton of cards is? What percentage of cards graded do you think are submitted more than once? How overstated are the pop reports. It seems a shame to me that cards need to be sumbitted multiple times to get the grade the submitters feel they deserve. You appear to be a large dealer in PSA cards, hoping you can enlighten me.
This is all very troubling to a newbie like me to CU and PSA, I question the consistency and the reliability of this product.
Thanks in advance for your insights.
Doug
45% complete.
Which could mean that some of those low pop cards are actually 'rare' compared to some of the others.
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
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* L. TIANT BASIC #1
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* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
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* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
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With regard to the cards I have to crack out, most of the cards are in GAI, BVG and SGC holders. The cards just don't sell well in those holders. I purchased some large lots of 56s and 75s-79s in SGC and GAI holders. The cards are super nice, but there is just no demand for those holders. People only seem to want those cards for registry sets. I need to take the time to crack all of them out and submit them to PSA.
With respect to 72s, Jim was asking me about crack outs because he knows that I bought some very high end examples of grades some time ago from a collector who sold his set and there are some regrade candidates in that group. Most of those cards sold in my registry set so I do not have too many, but I still have a few.
I also have a large number of HOFs that I need to cross.
I happen to be a proponent of PSA's grading. Generally, I think they do a very good job. Throwing out the mistakes (that every grading company is bound to have), the fact is that there are cards that under PSAs standards are borderline between grades. A tough grader might give the lower grade and an easier grader might give the higher one. Without half grades there are opportunities for upgrades. With that said, for the most part they are not that common and I have never had a card jump more than one grade.
It's probably an impossible task at this point. From a personal standpoint I know that I have resubmitted a bunch of the tough ones including a Gardner, McRae IA, Reds Rookies, Barton IA, Houk Expos Rookies (used to be tough) and a Marshall in hopes of getting an 8 to 9 bump. I would suspect that the Marshall that was recently won on ebay may be headed back for a second look. I also know that a particular PSA 8 Gardner was resubmitted 3x.
Thats not to say that most of the tough 8's were resubmitted because sometimes those 8's have centering issues that would keep it out of 9 holder or in some cases those cards were bumped from 7's to 8's or were weak 8's to begin with. I was able to bump a Blue IA from a 7 to an 8 and submitted an Aaron IA to use has a place holder 7, when it came back as 8 I was stunned.
That's not to mention all the high end 8's of stars that were resubmitted. I had success in bumping a Clemente, Yaz, both Munsons a Seaver and a Carew.
Early on it made a lot more sense to resubmit commons because the pops in PSA 9 were so low. Today most 9's are not out of reach for the average collector but there was a time when submitting or resubmitting was the best option for some. It no longer makes sense to resubmit most cards because it can often be cheaper to look for a bargain on a higher pop 9.
When cards are cracked if the flip is sent back to PSA the pop report should be adjusted, it 's not always the case. There is also an "Urban Legend" that if one were to send back too many flips then their subsequent submissions would be looked at more harshly. Personally I don't buy into that theory.
It's also well known that many dealers (collectors too) will try to "maximize grades" by resubmitting until it no longer makes financial sense to do so. PSA is also aware of this and they really don't care because it contributes to their bottom line.
As far as the 72's go it's my opinion that the Kendall, Gardner , Expos Team Card and Mc Rae IA have truly stood the test of time.
It's also interesting to note that at one point the Schaal IA and Blue IA seemed to be the toughest cards and were "talked up" on these boards , their notoriety seemed to have brought out more. You could probably count the Dunning among them too, after three of them sold for around 100 bucks to the same collector and were "talked up" more followed. Casual followers of the set may not appreciate just how tough the Kendall or the Houk really are (at least at this point) and may not be inclined to submit them.
Another factor is that as of late PSA has seemed to loosen there standards at least as far as centering for 8's go, just take alook at the horrible looking 8's that are all over ebay, courtesy of 4sc and the like.
It will be interesting to see if the recent astounding sale of the 72 Reds Rookie card in PSA 9 will bring more out of the woodwork, maybe not 9's but I'm sure we will see a spike in 8's. If I had a PSA 8 Reds Rookie that had a remote chance of getting a 9 I'd be sending it back again and again...especially for a 5 dollar grading fee.
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Doug
45% complete.
What did the PSA 9 Reds rookies go for?
My Auctions
<< <i>What did the PSA 9 Reds rookies go for? >>
I believe it was $765......, but the next will will not likely go for near that price......( maybe half)
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
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Also, you can't underestimate the popularity of the set once it's in your blood it's tough to walk away.
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
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I'm now in sole possession of the fourth current best spot, and might eventually edge up toward 8.75, but it's not a real priority as I'm currently mostly focused on upgrading my 1933 Goudey and similar vintage sets.
I'll have some PSA 8 NQ dupes available soon if anyone has any interest.
SW
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
WaltDisneyBoards
When everything arrives, here's what I'll have abvailable: #52, 225, 487, 492 (these two are being replaced by the two corresponding 9's I bought from you recently), 539, 581, 694, 771.
I guess you wasn't thrilled about my offer on the Morgan Traded PSA 9, but if you need any of these cards, we can talk about using them in a possible cash/card deal for the Morgan, which itself will free up a PSA 8.
SW
I need the following in PSA 8....
#40 - Bob Barton IA
#150 - Norm Cash
#228 - WS Game 6 (Have a PSA 7)
#230 - World Series (Have a PSA 7)
#292 - Hal McRae IA
#296 - Dick Dietz IA
#322 - Jose Pena
#377 - Terry Harmon
#385 - Mickey Stanley
#438 - Maury Wills IA
#532 - Fred Kendall (Have a PSA 9oc)
#533 - Ralph Houk
#582 - Montreal Expos Team Card (Have a PSA 7)
#645 - Jim Maloney
#666 - Hector Torres
#670 - Ken Holtzman (Have a PSA 7)
#708 - Tim Foli IA
#720 - Sam McDowell
#723 - Al Santorini
#734 - Bob Burda
#787 - Ron Reed
.....so, if anyone has any to help me...send me a PM or post here!
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
WaltDisneyBoards
#7,55 and 141 in 10. A bunch in 9. Didnt get a Blue IA in 9, just 8's.
#150 - Norm Cash
#292 - Hal McRae In Action*
#300 - Hank Aaron In Action
#443 - Ken Henderson*
#532 - Fred Kendall
#582 - Montreal Expos Team Card
#708 - Tim Foli In Action*
#723 - Al Santorini*
#757 - Jose Cardenal Traded*
*I'm interested in cheap PSA 7 NQ on these if I can't get an 8 or 9.
PM me if you can help me out!
Thanks,
Joe
Here is my short list:
#182 - Ed Kranepool IA
#230 - World Series
#296 - Dick Dietz IA
#300 - Hank Aaron IA
#312 - Clay Carroll IA
#518 - Wayne Garrett
#582 - Montreal Expos Team Card
#667 - Ray Newman
HELP ME!!!
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Card 230 is from the 2nd series. It may be the most valuable card in that series because of its scarcity. I group of 18 GAI graded 2nd series packs just went for about $1,900 with Buyer's premium in the Goodwin & Co. auction. I was tempted to buy the packs, but I don't think there is enough value in that series to make the packs a reasonable buy. Hopefully for guys looking to complete the set, the buyer will crack the packs and submit the cards. With 18 wax packs there is a good chance that there will be at least one card 230 worthy of PSA 8.
Card 230 is from the 2nd series. It may be the most valuable card in that series because of its scarcity. I group of 18 GAI graded 2nd series packs just went for about $1,900 with Buyer's premium in the Goodwin & Co. auction. I was tempted to buy the packs, but I don't think there is enough value in that series to make the packs a reasonable buy. Hopefully for guys looking to complete the set, the buyer will crack the packs and submit the cards. With 18 wax packs there is a good chance that there will be at least one card 230 worthy of PSA 8. >>
David-
I made what I considered to be a BIG mistake in regard to unopened. My wife paid around 3300.00 for an unopened box of series 3 wax from BBCEX , she surprised me with it because I was gawking at it so much.
I figured it would be a money maker and ripped them all. I had visions of a Mc rae IA, Aaron IA, Dietz IA , Clemente IA in PSA 9, didn't happen NO gradeable Mcrae IA or Aaron IA (3or 4 OC's), I did manage a decent amount of 8 & 9's of some cards including a regular Clemente in PSA 9 ,but no 10's. The box was as fresh as could be , but after throwing out 2 cards per pack because of the gum damge and the ton of OC's the pickings were slim. It's a gamble and the odds aren't all that great. It was a thrill to rip those packs though.....
BTW, that was a sh@##y thing Barnett's did to you. I would never buy from them.
I like to think we are all friends here............so I want to admit to something being that you brought it up..........
I saw the listing for the 230 World Series card from barnett cards..........and then i saw that the listing was gone...........I sent barnett an email saying that I hope they were getting a good price for the card because it was one of the most sought after cards in the set............
...This would explain why they became A-holes about selling to you.............sorry if I cost you more money!!!
Jami
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
need the following in PSA 8....
#40 - Bob Barton IA
#150 - Norm Cash
#228 - WS Game 6 (Have a PSA 7)
#230 - World Series (Have a PSA 7)
#292 - Hal McRae IA
#296 - Dick Dietz IA
#322 - Jose Pena
#377 - Terry Harmon
#385 - Mickey Stanley
#438 - Maury Wills IA
#532 - Fred Kendall (Have a PSA 9oc)
#533 - Ralph Houk
#582 - Montreal Expos Team Card (Have a PSA 7)
#666 - Hector Torres
#670 - Ken Holtzman (Have a PSA 7)
#708 - Tim Foli IA
#720 - Sam McDowell
#723 - Al Santorini
#734 - Bob Burda
#787 - Ron Reed
.....so, if anyone has any to help me...send me a PM or post here!
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
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Mike
The good thing is that I have had help from a lot of fellow '72ers and have picked up many low pops. For instance, when David needed to finish his set and one of the last ones needed was the elusive McCrae IA, I made a deal with him and picked up many low pop cards (Blue IA, Henderson & more).
* C. PASCUAL BASIC #3
* T. PEREZ BASIC #4 100%
* L. TIANT BASIC #1
* DRYSDALE BASIC #4 100%
* MAGIC MASTER #4/BASIC #3
* PALMEIRO MASTER/BASIC #1
* '65 DISNEYLAND #2
* '78 ELVIS PRESLEY #6
* '78 THREE'S COMPANY #1
WaltDisneyBoards
Frank's set has been the long time leader in our set and by a long margin.....................and Frank is a fine gentlemen and a large asset to our particular set.................Frank is first class in my book!!
Eventually, when Eric Olander gets those last few PSA 9s, his set should also be so honored.
Thanks guys for giving us all something to aspire to.........
Jami
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
<< <i>Here, here....FB's set is certainly one worthy of the honor. His set is head and shoulders above the field. Out of the pack there is only one set that may eventually get close. >>
...but that set is still YEARS away...and Frank will keep adding....
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete