My 401K plan does offer one other option that I have considered.... that of taking a 'loan' from my 401K. It is limited to 50k max at a time, any you pay yourself back with low interest rate.... perhaps that would give me a chance to invest some outside of my 401k.
<< <i>When it appeared that I would lose upwards of 50% of my capital just by removing the money from the retirment vehicles, I gave up, got mad, and redeployed it agressively into ETFs and Oil stocks. I figured that if half the money is not really mine, I might as well speculate hard and fast.
Jmski52, I've been having similar thoughts with my 401K. While my company has contributed 50% of it along the way, most of it could be a goner down the road. Fortunately the option was added a couple of years ago to be able to go outside the core fund with up to 50% of the total account value. And like you, I'm "speculating" hard and fast in PM's and other hard assets with that 50%. My diversified gold fund has done fine since I started, but the best is yet to come. I'm sure I'm the only one in our entire company that owns a gold fund in their 401K.
The real problem is what to do with the core 50% that gives you very few "safe" options.
1.Growth stock funds in your choice of mid-cap, small-cap, large-cap 2.Retirement fund mixes of stocks/bonds based on your age. These are typically heavily leveraged towards stocks. 3.Bond index funds 4.US Treasury money market fund 5.Stable Value Fund (SIC's, GIC's, BIC's, etc)
Of course choices 4 and 5 are not guaranteed by the US Govt nor the company running the 401K. These are all at full market risk and only as good as the banks, insurance companies and govt's that issued them. No warm fuzzy feeling there!
For my money I'd rather play this safe right now but do not see any of the above as being "safe." Treasuries are linked to interest rates and the USDI which are anything but stable. Stable value fund could be littered with illiquid funds that could kill your returns. Growth stocks and bonds at the present? Well enough said. For a few years I did have significant dollars in the Stable Value Fund but it finally hit me that the thing could be littered with derivative junk. Whose to say? While they aren't called SIV's, they look awfully similar. And bonds, well they HAD a nice run.
When the stock market finally shakes out I'd be happy to plunk down some money for the longer run. But not right now. You'd think there'd be some better alternatives in these 401K's to honestly protect one's dollars. Why not an Energy Fund for example? Or how about an International Fund that has significant exposure to Asian Companies? (my 401K does have an International Fund but its exposure is almost entirely to Europe). Europe is in the same boat we are right now...maybe worse.
Right now it's protection rather than growth that I prefer....and I don't see it. It will likely come after 401K's and pension funds blow up....but that will be too late for this round.
<< <i>When it appeared that I would lose upwards of 50% of my capital just by removing the money from the retirment vehicles, I gave up, got mad, and redeployed it agressively into ETFs and Oil stocks. I figured that if half the money is not really mine, I might as well speculate hard and fast.
Jmski52, I've been having similar thoughts with my 401K. While my company has contributed 50% of it along the way, most of it could be a goner down the road. Fortunately the option was added a couple of years ago to be able to go outside the core fund with up to 50% of the total account value. And like you, I'm "speculating" hard and fast in PM's and other hard assets with that 50%. My diversified gold fund has done fine since I started, but the best is yet to come. I'm sure I'm the only one in our entire company that owns a gold fund in their 401K.
The real problem is what to do with the core 50% that gives you very few "safe" options.
1.Growth stock funds in your choice of mid-cap, small-cap, large-cap 2.Retirement fund mixes of stocks/bonds based on your age. These are typically heavily leveraged towards stocks. 3.Bond index funds 4.US Treasury money market fund 5.Stable Value Fund (SIC's, GIC's, BIC's, etc)
Of course choices 4 and 5 are not guaranteed by the US Govt nor the company running the 401K. These are all at full market risk and only as good as the banks, insurance companies and govt's that issued them. No warm fuzzy feeling there!
For my money I'd rather play this safe right now but do not see any of the above as being "safe." Treasuries are linked to interest rates and the USDI which are anything but stable. Stable value fund could be littered with illiquid funds that could kill your returns. Growth stocks and bonds at the present? Well enough said. For a few years I did have significant dollars in the Stable Value Fund but it finally hit me that the thing could be littered with derivative junk. Whose to say? While they aren't called SIV's, they look awfully similar. And bonds, well they HAD a nice run.
When the stock market finally shakes out I'd be happy to plunk down some money for the longer run. But not right now. You'd think there'd be some better alternatives in these 401K's to honestly protect one's dollars. Why not an Energy Fund for example? Or how about an International Fund that has significant exposure to Asian Companies? (my 401K does have an International Fund but its exposure is almost entirely to Europe). Europe is in the same boat we are right now...maybe worse.
Right now it's protection rather than growth that I prefer....and I don't see it. It will likely come after 401K's and pension funds blow up....but that will be too late for this round.
roadrunner >>
Get a bunch of the employees together and petition the powers that be to add some international funds and (even though you dont appear to like them ) some ETFs to your 401K. Show them the graph of JAIGX and GDX over the last few years, that will turn them around. We had them added to my wife's plan and they have been spectacular ( past results have no bearing on future results yada yada yada). Fortunately my plan is completely self administered and is overweight in SLV and GLD and GDX and cash.
<< <i>This is not an appropriate topic in the U.S. Coin Forum. When PCGS adds a "Bullion" Forum, feel free to post away.
In the meantime, most of us would rather discuss COINS.
Mike (Coppernicus) >>
This is an eduational thread for me. I can receive various viewpoints and the thread is OT in some ways, in others it reeks of being "appropriée et relative" and i'll take mine with a It makes me think and gives me more curiosity, too...FWIW
and besides many bullion coin issues and questions are brought up to this forum daily.
Easier yet is to simply assign Word as your composer. Did that a long time ago and I've had a spell checker for all posts, here and elsewhere.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Tincup, I looked at the Emerging Market Fund in my plan and again, it's all in the USA with some sprinkling in Europe. But I'll relook at it now that you mentioned it. Maybe I overlooked something.
Get a bunch of the employees together and petition the powers that be to add some international funds and (even though you dont appear to like them ) some ETFs to your 401K. Show them the graph of JAIGX and GDX over the last few years, that will turn them around. We had them added to my wife's plan and they have been spectacular ( past results have no bearing on future results yada yada yada). Fortunately my plan is completely self administered and is overweight in SLV and GLD and GDX and cash.
Ironically, when I mentioned that the fund offered the option of investing 50% outside the main plain most did not know it even existed. And it's been around now for 2-3 years. And even so, I know of no other employee where I've worked in that period, that has taken advantage of using that option. It's very sad. I think the average Joe thinks that growth stocks will continue on as they did in the 1990's. When I mention my gold fund to a few friends I get strange looks. So I'm really beating a dead horse here. The 401K manager got very smart when they came out with their structured retirement plans. They call these 2030 or 2045 and are based on the year you plan to retire. They handle all the proper mixing for you. Which invariably is still 60-90% growth stocks and the rest bonds. So market exposure is always quite high.
I'd have no problem with ETF's at the present in my 401K. That's a better choice than what I have now. I just don't want to be in the ETF's when the crap really hits the fan. And frankly, I don't know what I'd want to be in, but it would include a mixed fund of necessities such as timber, land, water, fuels, metals, real estate......ie things. They can call it the "survival fund."
I guess I'm just old fashioned. Virtually all my funds, other than my house and a couple of rent homes and collector cars are tied up in physical PMs.
Storage really isn't problem. 100 ounces of gold (non-slabbed) is no more to deal with than 5 rolls of quarters.
100 ounce bars of silver can be a bit more challenging, but it's quite managable. Surprisingly so.
You guys have got me to thinking about other avenues I'd never have considered. However, paper gold and sillver will never be one of them, that's simply helping the manipulators.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
> That is why things are so screwed up, the SOCIALISTS have distorted the Constitutions wording with lies that everyone quotes as some kind of truth!!
This is an excellent point. It just so happens that one of the government's biggest forays into socialism is mining, closely related to the subjects of this thread.
The 1872 Mining Act still governs leases of government land to mining companies. They pay almost nothing, no matter what they extract! To add insult to injury, they frequently leave huge environmental messes that the taxpayer has to clean up.
"The Canadian firm and its subsidiary, Carlota Copper Co., will pay no more than $1,700 for the public portion of the land it would mine. The company expects to mine some 478,000 tons of copper worth about $728 million at current prices." For those with calculators, that is a 0.00023% royalty rate. What a deal, courtesy of the taxpayer.
Jefferson never said "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" (Link) In reality he said: "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then."
Jefferson defined Patriotic Dissent as opposing the government, not agreeing with it.
Thanks Joflax, but it will be a long and cold day in he11 when a survival fund shows up in a mainstream employee-oriented 401K plan. But you know what, it might not be a bad choice for part of my alternative 50%.
Your Janus International (Jaigx) is very similar in performance to my fund's Fidelity International option (32% over 3 years). But I see the difference in that Fidelity's has mostly European exposure while Janus has much more exposure to Asia...and that Fidelity is a $55B giant compared to <$1B for Janus. Makes Janus far more nimble. GDX is a gold miners ETF which basically holds the top 10 unhedged miners plus Barrick. So that is basically doing the same thing my Tocqueville Gold Fund (Tgldx) is doing. Guess I'm doing about all I can at the present with the choices available to me.
Gold should be interesting this coming week. There are a record number of short and long contracts but the longs seem to be ready to gobble up everything that is tossed at them. Typcial analysis from previous months would have called for gold to be crushed by now. Only time will tell if the shorts (along with the PPT) can muster enough power to turn this back from the $780-$800 range.
You are lucky with your 401(K). The government worker and military version--the Thrift Savings Plan-- has a few lifestyle funds, a large cap index type fund, small cap index, international, a fixed income fund and a government securities fund (G fund).
The dear powers-that-be have tapped into MY MONEY (well it would be mine if I had anything allocated to the G-fund, which I don't) to make up for the budget in the recent past: 2006 article. Link includes:
"Treasury Secretary John W. Snow told Congress last week that it had begun to use the TSP's government securities fund to keep from hitting the $8 trillion debt limit."
"Snow also indicated that TSP investors should not worry about his decision to suspend reinvestment of some TSP assets on a daily basis. In a letter to Capitol Hill leaders, Snow said G Fund participants "are fully protected and will suffer no adverse consequences from this action.""
"will just take what we need to get through each day."--whew I feel better.
No etfs, gold/silver for me. But hey at least my accounts are safe and secure.
IMO there will be 2 big influences on gold and silver this week. Last Friday's Black monday 20th anniversary 2.6+% drop in the markets could follow thru on Monday with a HUGE drop leading to another panicked 1/2 percent cut in rates by Helicopter Ben and the dollar tanking. This may lead to a sell-off in gold to cover margin calls or a HUGE runup , the likes of which we have never seen before as a flight to quality. The other influence is the G7 meeting next week that may decide to prop up the dollar. If they do then gold and silver tank and we should all go to cash. The best case scenario is for the stock market to stabilise and for the G7 to let market forces take care of the dollar, in which case the orderly Bull market in PMs can continue, and I can stay fully invested.
<< <i>Thanks Joflax, but it will be a long and cold day in he11 when a survival fund shows up in a mainstream employee-oriented 401K plan. But you know what, it might not be a bad choice for part of my alternative 50%.
Your Janus International (Jaigx) is very similar in performance to my fund's Fidelity International option (32% over 3 years). But I see the difference in that Fidelity's has mostly European exposure while Janus has much more exposure to Asia...and that Fidelity is a $55B giant compared to <$1B for Janus. Makes Janus far more nimble. GDX is a gold miners ETF which basically holds the top 10 unhedged miners plus Barrick. So that is basically doing the same thing my Tocqueville Gold Fund (Tgldx) is doing. Guess I'm doing about all I can at the present with the choices available to me.
Gold should be interesting this coming week. There are a record number of short and long contracts but the longs seem to be ready to gobble up everything that is tossed at them. Typcial analysis from previous months would have called for gold to be crushed by now. Only time will tell if the shorts (along with the PPT) can muster enough power to turn this back from the $780-$800 range.
roadrunner >>
The other ETF is called DBC ( powershares commodity tracking index) with holdings in Corn , crude oil , heating oil, LME Alum,gold and wheat. It is a derivatives fund with all the risks/rewards involved.
Gold up 8.20 silver flat , this has been the trend the last week or so , dollar tanks in Asian trade and gold takes off , then we open here in the morning and there is support from somewherefor the dollar and gold is flat
<< <i>Gold up 8.20 silver flat , this has been the trend the last week or so , dollar tanks in Asian trade and gold takes off , then we open here in the morning and there is support from somewherefor the dollar and gold is flat >>
The yen is sharply higher today though and the Japanese markets are closed. Oil is down.
So can we expect the yen carry trade to rear its head on top of the credit crunch and a skittish stock market? Looks like you are correct about gold , all the gains are gone
"Unfortunately the Constitution does not state that the Government PROVIDE for the General welfare. It states that it will PROMOTE the General welfare. They do not mean the same thing."
And, there ya' go. We'll see how this plays out but I bet the Katrinaites will make their voice heard in the next general election. If they get the upper hand, this is gonna cost somebody a LOT of money!
Karina was simply the removal of a scab over a corrupt system that has been in place for generations.
These are people that have been on the public dole for generations, now we have them in Houston and they have no intention of leaving. We've made it too good here for them. The crime rate has skyrocketed, 2 out of 3 murder victims are committed by gang members from New Orleans, half the other one is from illegal aliens. the children have been bussed into schools that are way beyond their ability to keep up. Their response? Violence! It's a disaster of biblical proportions.
The real disaster is now ongoing and is still to come from that storm.
Our local middle school has now become a 90% free lunch program school because of these people. They bus them in, but they have to walk home. What sort of nonsense is that? The apartments that took them in are over 10 miles away! Myself and my neighbors how have our homes, landscaping and cars trashed regularly.
Sure, Texas law allows me to protect my property, but how's it gonna look if I shoot some 18 year old gang member for spray painting my car? What will the retribution be from all his buddy gang members? My neighborhood has already been the victim of having all our car windows smashed and contents stolen in the middle of the night on three occasions now. My home owner's insurance is up over 50% this year and it's solely due to the Katrina scum. I still remember the woman on TV who was outraged that her sons were arrested for selling crack, she said it was racist and unfair. They did it for years in New Orleans and now they are in jail for doing it in Houston. She said they were just supporting their family and where's the harm in that!! What a freaking joke!
I tell you, this country is closer to open violence in the streets than our mainstream media will ever tell us.
Sorry if this is off-topic, but the mere mention of Katrina folks, they aren't victims, BTW, just gets my hackles up.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Are you an Ebay coin dealer that leaves money in Pay-Pal?
EBay customers' cash linked to risky assets: By Tim McLaughlin NEW YORK (Reuters) - EBay customers who park extra cash in a nearly $1 billion (490 million pounds) PayPal money market fund are exposed to the same type of assets targeted for an emergency bailout by the largest U.S. banks, regulatory filings show.
PayPal Money Market Fund, whose popularity has mushroomed with online consumers, is invested in a portfolio that contains structured investment vehicles, or SIVs, linked to troubled subprime loans and other debt.
The risk surrounding these illiquid assets has forced the largest U.S. banks to attempt to create a roughly $80 billion rescue fund to prevent SIV assets from plummeting in value. The PayPal fund was No. 2 among 248 first-tier retail funds over the past five years as of September 30, according to iMoneyNet. Many other money market funds are also exposed to risky assets in the hunt for better returns, experts said.
“<< Gold up 8.20 silver flat , this has been the trend the last week or so , dollar tanks in Asian trade and gold takes off , then we open here in the morning and there is support from somewhere for the dollar and gold is flat >>
The yen is sharply higher today though and the Japanese markets are closed. Oil is down.
It looks like a bull trap to me.”
CladKing Good call so far!
It is now nearly 6:00 A.M here, and it looks like the Bull trap might not have fooled anyone. Gold is now down $14.10 and silver is down .20 cents to $13.29.
I think we all know the trend is up, but we will have to see what happens in the markets this weak. I think it is important to keep in mind that just as with the August drop, many of these large investors must sometimes sell even their better investments to keep their books straight.
THE REALLY BIG QUESTION IS WHERE IS THE NEXT BUBBLE? Ladies and Gentlemen, the trillions of created paper currencies around the world are looking for a home, where will they go next?
Most of Asia is now very over sold, no one wants in the banks or financials, oil is set to take a breather, Big government has let gold run about as far as they dare for awhile, the good tech companies are being over bought, real-estate is in the toilet, bonds notes and T-Bills won’t even pay the taxes and inflation, and the mutual funds are all looking to lock in profits in the next 10 days to show their customers they did have a positive return.
The real problem is what to do with the core 50% that gives you very few "safe" options.
1.Growth stock funds in your choice of mid-cap, small-cap, large-cap 2.Retirement fund mixes of stocks/bonds based on your age. These are typically heavily leveraged towards stocks. 3.Bond index funds 4.US Treasury money market fund 5.Stable Value Fund (SIC's, GIC's, BIC's, etc)
RR - the best you can hope to do with this "core" is to manage it. Your company has fallen into the same type of thinking that most folks do - "nothing can go wrong if the company/government is looking out for me", right?
You can hope that #4 might have internal controls on sticking to what's promised in the prospectus and that SEC is making sure that their own investing rules are followed.
#3 is only a possibility after a stock market crash and bond yields have risen - and you have cash or liquid assets that you can use to buy bonds, if you think the risk has been washed out.
#1, #2, and #5 - yeah, you are right - how many derivative bombs are buried in the management companies' balance sheets?
Modern Portfolio Theory to the rescue! Manage your "core" as part of your overall portfolio. That's about as good as it gets. It's ironic when the "core" becomes ballast, eh? Diversify, diversify, diversify.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Do you think anyone will pay any attention to this old guy? Do you think he has finally figured this out?
Oct. 22 (Bloomberg) -- Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said the dollar's decline may reflect a growing unwillingness among foreigners to buy U.S. securities. ``Obviously there is a limit to the extent that obligations to foreigners can reach,'' Greenspan said in a speech in Washington yesterday. The dollar's decline to its lowest since 1997 may be ``an indication America is approaching this limit.''
"Obviously there is a limit to the extent that obligations to foreigners can reach,'' Greenspan said in a speech in Washington yesterday. The dollar's decline to its lowest since 1997 may be "an indication America is approaching this limit."
Okay, I'll bite. Following this train of thought, the next logical progression would be, "and once this limit is reached..........................."
a) the dollar will free-fall?
b) the FED will inflate in order to inject more liquidity into the market so that Goldman Sachs can buy the debt?
c) the government will look at the foreign debt holders and say, "tag, you're it"?
d) all of the above
e) none of the above
Seriously, what the heck is that supposed to mean, coming from Greenspan?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
"What Greenspan is talking about is the negative Treasury International Capital Flows (TIC) report which is the stuff .7200 USDX and lower is made of."
Yes, that hugely negative TIC that Greenspan's dollar antics helped to create. Now he is washing his hands clean of that? Ironic huh?
It looks lime G7's efforts to bolster the dollar on Friday and Monday have sort of failed. Gold took a quick hit to the pants Sunday night and into Monday am. But buyers showed up to buy some gold bargains. And today the dollar has headed right back towards the 0.77 basement again. Guess G7 should have used oil based paint on their chart painting instead of the washable stuff they used. Gold looking stronger than ever.
the real profiteers in this will be the ones who are able to supply-design-make this nano-gold/palladium "soup"...not the cost of the gold or palladium, if it even has an impact.
the cost to get nano-gold may be less than the process to get bigger deposits. maybe they will just dig in someone's backyard and shovel full of dirt will contain enough...i dunno. Maybe instead of reclamation, these already dead mined areas will contain enough of the nano-gold.
<< <i>Not sure if this gold interest story was in the thread already, but here is a link. >>
It was bound to happen eventually.
This guy is talking very small bits of gold but it appears that gold can also exist in a monatomic state of single molecules. It appears that the ancients might have been familiar with this and it's even possible that the alchemists were actually trying to convert gold to this rather than base metals to gold.
If you want an eyeopening experience then google David Hudson or monatomic gold.
There seems to be nothing so strange that it can't be real and there's nothing new under the sun.
Oct. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Jim Rogers, chairman of Beeland Interests Inc., said he is shifting all his assets out of the dollar and buying Chinese yuan because the Federal Reserve has eroded the value of the U.S. currency.
The billionaire, Rogers, 65, who correctly predicted the commodities rally in 1999. ``I'm that pessimistic about what's happening in the U.S.''
Rogers, delivering a presentation late yesterday at an investors' meeting organized by ABN Amro Markets in Amsterdam, said he expects the Chinese currency to quadruple in the next decade and that he is holding on to commodities such as platinum, gold, silver and palladium.
The bull markets in bonds and stocks are ``over,'' he said. ``Bonds will be a terrible place to be for many years and will in fact be going down for many years.''
Rogers said he remains bullish on commodities because ``that's where the big fortunes are going to be made in the world in the next five, or 10 or 15 years. The current bull market is going to last until sometime between 2014 and 2022.''
This in last night's email from Jim Sinclair, Gee things are getting a little panicky out there!
Buffet on Bloomberg, is saying this morning to not buy Chinese stocks, Jim Rodgers is going into the Yuan and PM’S, and now Sinclair is sending out this warning.
It seems like the warning buttons are being pushed around the planet?
Dear CIGAs,Many of you have asked what exactly I mean by “This is it,” so here it is in point form:
1. There is a rampant, serious financial problem with terminal potential and no practical solution hidden just outside of the public’s view (OTC Derivatives).
2. Because central banks have gotten so out of hand and political which cannot be controlled by investors or the man in the street, we need to adjust our actions so that each person takes on the responsibilities normal to central banks for their own finances.
3. Everything we buy is getting more expensive and many assets people have, other than gold, are losing value. Because of this credit is not a proper idea regardless of the weak dollar for the majority of people reading this.
4. Major financial institutions, Internet financial entities and banks operate without transparency where their derivative holdings are concerned. Losses the financial institutions are publishing are considered by media as having extinguished all the risk. I do not believe this. I believe they are still marked to model, only the model is moving slowly towards reality of worthlessness.
5. There is an acceleration of bankruptcy among financial institutions. This translates to the individual needing to act as their own financial institution by having their share investments in paper form, gold in their close possession with no one in-between and available cash. The individual must be their own bank and central bank as one has failed us and both may.
6. The savings rate in the US is negative while the expansion of credit is totally over the top.
7. Business is turning south so the US Federal Budget Deficit will move up exponentially.
8. The US dollar has become a bombed out and lost battle zone. There is nothing good anyone can say fundamentally about the US dollar.
9. Non US entities are fed up with financing the US consumer and US Federal activities. This is clear from the recent TIC report, which is now down trending.
10. Financial privacy is non-existent.
11. There is a model for exactly what is happening now and that is the Weimar Republic. Name war retributions as OTC derivatives and you begin to see the picture.
12. The US dollar has now made a clear indication of the final head and shoulders; the massive formation from the absolute top is breaking down.Number 12 is the item that impacts all of the above because of the dollar’s technical position now beginning to reflect the dire fundamentals. This is itThis is it because you now have to perform not only as your own bank but also as your own central bank. This is it because the US dollar has completed a major head and shoulders bear formation, pulled back to the underside of the neckline and thereafter declining below the major support line drawn from the beginning of the big dollar bull under Chairman Paul Volcker. Volcker made the dollar and Greenspan gave it all back to Asia.
The dollar break below the recent and most important major, major support line drawn from 1980 to now is the fundamental basis which will push Gold to $1650.
The US dollar is without any doubt in my mind is going to .7200, followed by .6200.Ladies and gentlemen, prepare to defend yourselves."
I figured that it has been the case. If you buy silver and don't take delivery of the physical metal, you are actually providing fodder to Morgan Stanley in suppressing the price of your own investment!
You are right. It would be considered illegal if the legal system worked.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
This is an eyeopener, and I have been tracking this for a while now! >>
"I prefer to deal in documented facts and figures, and not to guess what the total amount might be, but there are no reporting requirements or clearinghouse data available. Were it not for the class-action settlement involving Morgan Stanley, I’m sure many would deny this situation existed at all. Fortunately, because of this case, no one can deny the practice of unbacked silver certificates exists."
This fraud has been going on since the '70's and has been mentioned in this thread.
The saddest part about this is that many people who believe thay are long silver will actually lose their entire investment when the financial institution is dragged under by this nonsense. The best part is that as more people awaken to the fraud they will pull their money out of these and buy real silver.
These fraudulent accounts essentially remove most of the REAL DEMAND for silver by telling purchasers they have the product and even charge for storage. If these "owners" knew they don't really have silver they would go out and buy it.
We live in a world with very little silver left and mountains of paper silver to hide it.
"If you buy silver and don't take delivery of the physical metal, you are actually providing fodder to Morgan Stanley in suppressing the price of your own investment!"
Interesting point. But if you are still selling paper silver and charging spot+ for it, you are promoting spot. If you don't have the silver but sell the paper anyway, the game stays on. How can you physically supress the price of silver (albeit nothing) you are selling?
I would never feed the paper silver sellers...give me my PM or maybe an etf.
How can you physically supress the price of silver (albeit nothing) you are selling?
I didn't say that you are physically suppressing the price of silver you are selling. I said that if you don't take physical possession of the silver that you buy, your own purchase of paper is working against you, by removing your order to buy silver from the demand side of the equation.
If a whole bunch of orders to buy silver are removed from the equation, then the price doesn't react to the upside as it normally would. So, in a perverse way, your buy order isn't even reflected in the market and the true market demand evaporates into nothingness, which keeps the price from rising. If the price doesn't rise after you buy the silver, then you don't make any money by owning it.
If someone is manipulating prices, usually the government takes a dim view. In this case, it seems that the government is in cahoots. It seems obvious that there are two sets of rules. They always try very hard to leave the little guy holding the bag, and physical possession seems to be the only way to prevent them from doing that.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Imagine if the likes of the Hunt Bros tried to corner the physical silver market today. It would take a lot of money and even more guts but would knock Wall Street into a tailspin with a lot of bang for each buck. Wouldn't have to go the distance, just enough to provide a paper silver sell catalyst. With the right coordination, it would take down some Goliaths.
Didn't Warren Buffet do pretty much the same thing when he purchased over $100 MILL oz. in physical silver in the late 1990's? His actions drove the price up several bucks. Still, the market seemed to handle the demand fairly well.
<< <i>Imagine if the likes of the Hunt Bros tried to corner the physical silver market today. It would take a lot of money and even more guts but would knock Wall Street into a tailspin with a lot of bang for each buck. Wouldn't have to go the distance, just enough to provide a paper silver sell catalyst. With the right coordination, it would take down some Goliaths. >>
I fear this is the real problem.
All it really requires is enough net buying by the public to have the exact same effect. When deliveries can't be made because the metal doesn't actually exist plant and equipment will be shut down in the real world. Many of those who believe they are long will lose not only their profit but their principle as well because dead goliaths are exempt from paying off.
"Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do." - Rudy Giuliani
“Imagine if the likes of the Hunt Bros tried to corner the physical silver market today.”
Now this is a great idea, and there are mostly a few guys around here that could get together and pull this off.
Don’t we have some billionaires here?
Think about this, the Hunts were some of the few people on the planet that could do this back in the 70’s. Today there are 400 some odd billionaires. In addition the Hunts were buying millions of dollars worth of silver at $20 to $35 dollars an ounce with REAL un-inflated money.
There are dozens of credible billionaires, that have lunch, that could put together a small group and just buy it all, build a vault in the middle of a ten thousand acre ranch and demand delivery. Talk about a 100 billion dollar play, WOW?
"Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do." - Rudy Giuliani
Hmmm, a bad week for Merrill Lynch. And according to Sinclair he thinks they have not marked down their SIV losses to anything near market. More to come next quarter! I'm still trying to figure out how a $100 BILL SIV slush fund created by Citi/BA/JPM, and authorized by the Feds, is going to cover $20 TRILLION in potential/probably losses?
Merrill Lynch Reports Loss on $8.4 Billion Writedown (Update4) By Bradley Keoun
Oct. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Merrill Lynch & Co. reported the biggest quarterly loss in its 93-year history after $8.4 billion of writedowns, the most by any securities firm.
The third-quarter loss of $2.24 billion, or $2.82 a share, was about six times higher than the New York-based company estimated on Oct. 5. Merrill wrote down the value of subprime mortgages, asset-backed bonds and loans to finance leveraged buyouts, and Chief Executive Officer Stanley O'Neal said in a statement today that he is ``working to resolve the remaining impact from our positions.''
Merrill fell as much as 3.1 percent in New York trading and now ranks as this year's worst performer among the five largest investment banks, after O'Neal misjudged the severity of the decline in the credit markets since July. Investors who lauded the 56-year-old CEO for chasing higher returns now question his management as the firm became the biggest underwriter of debt securities backed by subprime loans.
``We're very disappointed,'' said Rose Grant, who helps manage about $2 billion at Eastern Investment Advisors in Boston, including Merrill shares. ``I don't think Stan O'Neal will step down, but you do have to look at top management and wonder why they didn't know the extent of this loss.'' ..........
SIV's and SUV's.....they will always be linked together.
Comments
<< <i>When it appeared that I would lose upwards of 50% of my capital just by removing the money from the retirment vehicles, I gave up, got mad, and redeployed it agressively into ETFs and Oil stocks. I figured that if half the money is not really mine, I might as well speculate hard and fast.
Jmski52, I've been having similar thoughts with my 401K. While my company has contributed 50% of it along the way, most of it could be a goner down the road. Fortunately the option was added a couple of years ago to be able to go outside the core fund with up to 50% of the total account value. And like you, I'm "speculating" hard and fast in PM's and other hard assets with that 50%. My diversified gold fund has done fine since I started, but the best is yet to come. I'm sure I'm the only one in our entire company that owns a gold fund in their 401K.
The real problem is what to do with the core 50% that gives you very few "safe" options.
1.Growth stock funds in your choice of mid-cap, small-cap, large-cap
2.Retirement fund mixes of stocks/bonds based on your age.
These are typically heavily leveraged towards stocks.
3.Bond index funds
4.US Treasury money market fund
5.Stable Value Fund (SIC's, GIC's, BIC's, etc)
Of course choices 4 and 5 are not guaranteed by the US Govt nor the company running the 401K. These are all at full market risk and only as good as the banks, insurance companies and govt's that issued them. No warm fuzzy feeling there!
For my money I'd rather play this safe right now but do not see any of the above as being "safe." Treasuries are linked to interest rates and the USDI which are anything but stable. Stable value fund could be littered with illiquid funds that could kill your returns.
Growth stocks and bonds at the present? Well enough said.
For a few years I did have significant dollars in the Stable Value Fund but it finally hit me that the thing could be littered with derivative junk. Whose to say? While they aren't called SIV's, they look awfully similar. And bonds, well they HAD a nice run.
When the stock market finally shakes out I'd be happy to plunk down some money for the longer run. But not right now.
You'd think there'd be some better alternatives in these 401K's to honestly protect one's dollars. Why not an Energy Fund for example? Or how about an International Fund that has significant exposure to Asian Companies? (my 401K does have an International Fund but its exposure is almost entirely to Europe). Europe is in the same boat we are right now...maybe worse.
Right now it's protection rather than growth that I prefer....and I don't see it. It will likely come after 401K's and pension funds blow up....but that will be too late for this round.
roadrunner >>
<< <i>When it appeared that I would lose upwards of 50% of my capital just by removing the money from the retirment vehicles, I gave up, got mad, and redeployed it agressively into ETFs and Oil stocks. I figured that if half the money is not really mine, I might as well speculate hard and fast.
Jmski52, I've been having similar thoughts with my 401K. While my company has contributed 50% of it along the way, most of it could be a goner down the road. Fortunately the option was added a couple of years ago to be able to go outside the core fund with up to 50% of the total account value. And like you, I'm "speculating" hard and fast in PM's and other hard assets with that 50%. My diversified gold fund has done fine since I started, but the best is yet to come. I'm sure I'm the only one in our entire company that owns a gold fund in their 401K.
The real problem is what to do with the core 50% that gives you very few "safe" options.
1.Growth stock funds in your choice of mid-cap, small-cap, large-cap
2.Retirement fund mixes of stocks/bonds based on your age.
These are typically heavily leveraged towards stocks.
3.Bond index funds
4.US Treasury money market fund
5.Stable Value Fund (SIC's, GIC's, BIC's, etc)
Of course choices 4 and 5 are not guaranteed by the US Govt nor the company running the 401K. These are all at full market risk and only as good as the banks, insurance companies and govt's that issued them. No warm fuzzy feeling there!
For my money I'd rather play this safe right now but do not see any of the above as being "safe." Treasuries are linked to interest rates and the USDI which are anything but stable. Stable value fund could be littered with illiquid funds that could kill your returns.
Growth stocks and bonds at the present? Well enough said.
For a few years I did have significant dollars in the Stable Value Fund but it finally hit me that the thing could be littered with derivative junk. Whose to say? While they aren't called SIV's, they look awfully similar. And bonds, well they HAD a nice run.
When the stock market finally shakes out I'd be happy to plunk down some money for the longer run. But not right now.
You'd think there'd be some better alternatives in these 401K's to honestly protect one's dollars. Why not an Energy Fund for example? Or how about an International Fund that has significant exposure to Asian Companies? (my 401K does have an International Fund but its exposure is almost entirely to Europe). Europe is in the same boat we are right now...maybe worse.
Right now it's protection rather than growth that I prefer....and I don't see it. It will likely come after 401K's and pension funds blow up....but that will be too late for this round.
roadrunner >>
Get a bunch of the employees together and petition the powers that be to add some international funds and (even though you dont appear to like them ) some ETFs to your 401K. Show them the graph of JAIGX and GDX over the last few years, that will turn them around. We had them added to my wife's plan and they have been spectacular ( past results have no bearing on future results yada yada yada). Fortunately my plan is completely self administered and is overweight in SLV and GLD and GDX and cash.
<< <i>This is not an appropriate topic in the U.S. Coin Forum. When PCGS adds a "Bullion" Forum, feel free to post away.
In the meantime, most of us would rather discuss COINS.
Mike (Coppernicus) >>
This is an eduational thread for me. I can receive various viewpoints and the thread is OT in some ways, in others it reeks of being "appropriée et relative" and i'll take mine with a
and besides many bullion coin issues and questions are brought up to this forum daily.
<< <i>"If we could only get a spell checker here it would be perfect"
YES! Oh yes.
Spell checker easy download >>
That's one way.
Easier yet is to simply assign Word as your composer. Did that a long time ago and I've had a spell checker for all posts, here and elsewhere.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Get a bunch of the employees together and petition the powers that be to add some international funds and (even though you dont appear to like them ) some ETFs to your 401K. Show them the graph of JAIGX and GDX over the last few years, that will turn them around. We had them added to my wife's plan and they have been spectacular ( past results have no bearing on future results yada yada yada). Fortunately my plan is completely self administered and is overweight in SLV and GLD and GDX and cash.
Ironically, when I mentioned that the fund offered the option of investing 50% outside the main plain most did not know it even existed. And it's been around now for 2-3 years. And even so, I know of no other employee where I've worked in that period, that has taken advantage of using that option. It's very sad. I think the average Joe thinks that growth stocks will continue on as they did in the 1990's. When I mention my gold fund to a few friends I get strange looks. So I'm really beating a dead horse here. The 401K manager got very smart when they came out with their structured retirement plans. They call these 2030 or 2045 and are based on the year you plan to retire. They handle all the proper mixing for you. Which invariably is still 60-90% growth stocks and the rest bonds. So market exposure is always quite high.
I'd have no problem with ETF's at the present in my 401K. That's a better choice than what I have now. I just don't want to be in the ETF's when the crap really hits the fan. And frankly, I don't know what I'd want to be in, but it would include a mixed fund of necessities such as timber, land, water, fuels, metals, real estate......ie things. They can call it the "survival fund."
roadrunner
Storage really isn't problem. 100 ounces of gold (non-slabbed) is no more to deal with than 5 rolls of quarters.
100 ounce bars of silver can be a bit more challenging, but it's quite managable. Surprisingly so.
You guys have got me to thinking about other avenues I'd never have considered. However, paper gold and sillver will never be one of them, that's simply helping the manipulators.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
there is even an etf that holds timber oil, gas, all the survival stuff , cannot rememer its symbol but I remember seeing it
This is an excellent point. It just so happens that one of the government's biggest forays into socialism is mining, closely related to the subjects of this thread.
The 1872 Mining Act still governs leases of government land to mining companies. They pay almost nothing, no matter what they extract! To add insult to injury, they frequently leave huge environmental messes that the taxpayer has to clean up.
Link
Just one item from this link:
"The Canadian firm and its subsidiary, Carlota Copper Co., will pay no more than $1,700 for the public portion of the land it would mine. The company expects to mine some 478,000 tons of copper worth about $728 million at current prices." For those with calculators, that is a 0.00023% royalty rate. What a deal, courtesy of the taxpayer.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Jefferson never said "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" (Link) In reality he said: "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then."
Jefferson defined Patriotic Dissent as opposing the government, not agreeing with it.
Your Janus International (Jaigx) is very similar in performance to my fund's Fidelity International option (32% over 3 years). But I see the difference in that Fidelity's has mostly European exposure while Janus has much more exposure to Asia...and that Fidelity is a $55B
giant compared to <$1B for Janus. Makes Janus far more nimble.
GDX is a gold miners ETF which basically holds the top 10 unhedged miners plus Barrick. So that is basically doing the same thing my Tocqueville Gold Fund (Tgldx) is doing. Guess I'm doing about all I can at the present with the choices available to me.
Gold should be interesting this coming week. There are a record number of short and long contracts but the longs seem to be ready to gobble up everything that is tossed at them. Typcial analysis from previous months would have called for gold to be crushed by now. Only time will tell if the shorts (along with the PPT) can muster enough power to turn this back from the $780-$800 range.
roadrunner
The dear powers-that-be have tapped into MY MONEY (well it would be mine if I had anything allocated to the G-fund, which I don't) to make up for the budget in the recent past:
2006 article. Link includes:
"Treasury Secretary John W. Snow told Congress last week that it had begun to use the TSP's government securities fund to keep from hitting the $8 trillion debt limit."
"Snow also indicated that TSP investors should not worry about his decision to suspend reinvestment of some TSP assets on a daily basis. In a letter to Capitol Hill leaders, Snow said G Fund participants "are fully protected and will suffer no adverse consequences from this action.""
"will just take what we need to get through each day."--whew I feel better.
No etfs, gold/silver for me. But hey at least my accounts are safe and secure.
Last Friday's Black monday 20th anniversary 2.6+% drop in the markets could follow thru on Monday with a HUGE drop leading to another panicked 1/2 percent cut in rates by Helicopter Ben and the dollar tanking. This may lead to a sell-off in gold to cover margin calls or a HUGE runup , the likes of which we have never seen before as a flight to quality.
The other influence is the G7 meeting next week that may decide to prop up the dollar. If they do then gold and silver tank and we should all go to cash.
The best case scenario is for the stock market to stabilise and for the G7 to let market forces take care of the dollar, in which case the orderly Bull market in PMs can continue, and I can stay fully invested.
<< <i>Thanks Joflax, but it will be a long and cold day in he11 when a survival fund shows up in a mainstream employee-oriented 401K plan. But you know what, it might not be a bad choice for part of my alternative 50%.
Your Janus International (Jaigx) is very similar in performance to my fund's Fidelity International option (32% over 3 years). But I see the difference in that Fidelity's has mostly European exposure while Janus has much more exposure to Asia...and that Fidelity is a $55B
giant compared to <$1B for Janus. Makes Janus far more nimble.
GDX is a gold miners ETF which basically holds the top 10 unhedged miners plus Barrick. So that is basically doing the same thing my Tocqueville Gold Fund (Tgldx) is doing. Guess I'm doing about all I can at the present with the choices available to me.
Gold should be interesting this coming week. There are a record number of short and long contracts but the longs seem to be ready to gobble up everything that is tossed at them. Typcial analysis from previous months would have called for gold to be crushed by now. Only time will tell if the shorts (along with the PPT) can muster enough power to turn this back from the $780-$800 range.
roadrunner >>
The other ETF is called DBC ( powershares commodity tracking index) with holdings in Corn , crude oil , heating oil, LME Alum,gold and wheat. It is a derivatives fund with all the risks/rewards involved.
It's up another $7.50 right now but if the yen stays up and oil drops I'd look for a large retreat.
This won't last because the general trend remains higher.
<< <i>Gold up 8.20 silver flat , this has been the trend the last week or so , dollar tanks in Asian trade and gold takes off , then we open here in the morning and there is support from somewhere
The yen is sharply higher today though and the Japanese markets
are closed. Oil is down.
It looks like a bull trap to me.
Looks like you are correct about gold , all the gains are gone
It states that it will PROMOTE the General welfare.
They do not mean the same thing."
And, there ya' go. We'll see how this plays out but I bet the Katrinaites will make their voice heard in the next general election. If they get the upper hand, this is gonna cost somebody a LOT of money!
edited to add: Slippage
Karina was simply the removal of a scab over a corrupt system that has been in place for generations.
These are people that have been on the public dole for generations, now we have them in Houston and they have no intention of leaving. We've made it too good here for them. The crime rate has skyrocketed, 2 out of 3 murder victims are committed by gang members from New Orleans, half the other one is from illegal aliens. the children have been bussed into schools that are way beyond their ability to keep up. Their response? Violence! It's a disaster of biblical proportions.
The real disaster is now ongoing and is still to come from that storm.
Our local middle school has now become a 90% free lunch program school because of these people. They bus them in, but they have to walk home. What sort of nonsense is that? The apartments that took them in are over 10 miles away! Myself and my neighbors how have our homes, landscaping and cars trashed regularly.
Sure, Texas law allows me to protect my property, but how's it gonna look if I shoot some 18 year old gang member for spray painting my car? What will the retribution be from all his buddy gang members? My neighborhood has already been the victim of having all our car windows smashed and contents stolen in the middle of the night on three occasions now. My home owner's insurance is up over 50% this year and it's solely due to the Katrina scum. I still remember the woman on TV who was outraged that her sons were arrested for selling crack, she said it was racist and unfair. They did it for years in New Orleans and now they are in jail for doing it in Houston. She said they were just supporting their family and where's the harm in that!! What a freaking joke!
I tell you, this country is closer to open violence in the streets than our mainstream media will ever tell us.
Sorry if this is off-topic, but the mere mention of Katrina folks, they aren't victims, BTW, just gets my hackles up.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
EBay customers' cash linked to risky assets:
By Tim McLaughlin
NEW YORK (Reuters) - EBay customers who park extra cash in a nearly $1 billion (490 million pounds) PayPal money market fund are exposed to the same type of assets targeted for an emergency bailout by the largest U.S. banks, regulatory filings show.
PayPal Money Market Fund, whose popularity has mushroomed with online consumers, is invested in a portfolio that contains structured investment vehicles, or SIVs, linked to troubled subprime loans and other debt.
The risk surrounding these illiquid assets has forced the largest U.S.
banks to attempt to create a roughly $80 billion rescue fund to prevent SIV assets from plummeting in value.
The PayPal fund was No. 2 among 248 first-tier retail funds over the past five years as of September 30, according to iMoneyNet. Many other money market funds are also exposed to risky assets in the hunt for better returns, experts said.
“<< Gold up 8.20 silver flat , this has been the trend the last week or so , dollar tanks in Asian trade and gold takes off , then we open here in the morning and there is support from somewhere for the dollar and gold is flat >>
The yen is sharply higher today though and the Japanese markets
are closed. Oil is down.
It looks like a bull trap to me.”
CladKing
Good call so far!
It is now nearly 6:00 A.M here, and it looks like the Bull trap might not have fooled anyone.
Gold is now down $14.10 and silver is down .20 cents to $13.29.
I think we all know the trend is up, but we will have to see what happens in the markets this weak.
I think it is important to keep in mind that just as with the August drop, many of these large investors must sometimes sell even their better investments to keep their books straight.
THE REALLY BIG QUESTION IS WHERE IS THE NEXT BUBBLE?
Ladies and Gentlemen, the trillions of created paper currencies around the world are looking for a home, where will they go next?
Most of Asia is now very over sold, no one wants in the banks or financials, oil is set to take a breather, Big government has let gold run about as far as they dare for awhile, the good tech companies are being over bought, real-estate is in the toilet, bonds notes and T-Bills won’t even pay the taxes and inflation, and the mutual funds are all looking to lock in profits in the next 10 days to show their customers they did have a positive return.
Where is all the money going to go?
1.Growth stock funds in your choice of mid-cap, small-cap, large-cap
2.Retirement fund mixes of stocks/bonds based on your age.
These are typically heavily leveraged towards stocks.
3.Bond index funds
4.US Treasury money market fund
5.Stable Value Fund (SIC's, GIC's, BIC's, etc)
RR - the best you can hope to do with this "core" is to manage it. Your company has fallen into the same type of thinking that most folks do - "nothing can go wrong if the company/government is looking out for me", right?
You can hope that #4 might have internal controls on sticking to what's promised in the prospectus and that SEC is making sure that their own investing rules are followed.
#3 is only a possibility after a stock market crash and bond yields have risen - and you have cash or liquid assets that you can use to buy bonds, if you think the risk has been washed out.
#1, #2, and #5 - yeah, you are right - how many derivative bombs are buried in the management companies' balance sheets?
Modern Portfolio Theory to the rescue! Manage your "core" as part of your overall portfolio. That's about as good as it gets. It's ironic when the "core" becomes ballast, eh? Diversify, diversify, diversify.
I knew it would happen.
Do you think he has finally figured this out?
Oct. 22 (Bloomberg) -- Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said the dollar's decline may reflect a growing unwillingness among foreigners to buy U.S. securities.
``Obviously there is a limit to the extent that obligations to foreigners can reach,'' Greenspan said in a speech in Washington yesterday. The dollar's decline to its lowest since 1997 may be ``an indication America is approaching this limit.''
Okay, I'll bite. Following this train of thought, the next logical progression would be, "and once this limit is reached..........................."
a) the dollar will free-fall?
b) the FED will inflate in order to inject more liquidity into the market so that Goldman Sachs can buy the debt?
c) the government will look at the foreign debt holders and say, "tag, you're it"?
d) all of the above
e) none of the above
Seriously, what the heck is that supposed to mean, coming from Greenspan?
I knew it would happen.
"What Greenspan is talking about is the negative Treasury International Capital Flows (TIC) report which is the stuff .7200 USDX and lower is made of."
It looks lime G7's efforts to bolster the dollar on Friday and Monday have sort of failed. Gold took a quick hit to the pants Sunday night and into Monday am. But buyers showed up to buy some gold bargains. And today the dollar has headed right back towards the 0.77 basement again. Guess G7 should have used oil based paint on their chart painting instead of the washable stuff they used. Gold looking stronger than ever.
roadrunner
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Another interesting find, for those that are playing along at home:
China ag situation
Edited to add ag link.
Yeah, and it's not currency either... just real money (lol)
roadrunner
the real profiteers in this will be the ones who are able to supply-design-make this nano-gold/palladium "soup"...not the cost of the gold or palladium, if it even has an impact.
the cost to get nano-gold may be less than the process to get bigger deposits. maybe they will just dig in someone's backyard and shovel full of dirt will contain enough...i dunno. Maybe instead of reclamation, these already dead mined areas will contain enough of the nano-gold.
....just thinking out loud.
<< <i>Not sure if this gold interest story was in the thread already, but here is a link. >>
It was bound to happen eventually.
This guy is talking very small bits of gold but it appears that gold
can also exist in a monatomic state of single molecules. It appears
that the ancients might have been familiar with this and it's even
possible that the alchemists were actually trying to convert gold to
this rather than base metals to gold.
If you want an eyeopening experience then google David Hudson
or monatomic gold.
There seems to be nothing so strange that it can't be real and there's
nothing new under the sun.
Agreed. Time has proven Greenspan to be nothing more than a talking head. Now that he has a book to sell he wont shut up.
Remember everyone.......Its all about the Benjamins.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
This is an eyeopener, and I have been tracking this for a while now!
Thanks Longshot,
We discussed this just a few pages ago, thanks for this link, a must read!
This is another case of out and out fraud and some of these guys need to go to jail!
It is truly amazing what these big firms like Morgan Stanley are able to get buy with today.
This answers one of our questions of why Silver has not moved up with Gold.
Somebody needs to send this to Glenn Beck, I will send it to Peter Schiff.
TED BUTLER COMMENTARY
October 23, 2007
“I would conservatively estimate that at least a billion ounces of this silver is on the books of brokerage accounts that does not exist.”
Oct. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Jim Rogers, chairman of Beeland Interests Inc., said he is shifting all his assets out of the dollar and buying Chinese yuan because the Federal Reserve has eroded the value of the U.S. currency.
The billionaire, Rogers, 65, who correctly predicted the commodities rally in 1999. ``I'm that pessimistic about what's happening in the U.S.''
Rogers, delivering a presentation late yesterday at an investors' meeting organized by ABN Amro Markets in Amsterdam, said he expects the Chinese currency to quadruple in the next decade and that he is holding on to commodities such as platinum, gold, silver and palladium.
The bull markets in bonds and stocks are ``over,'' he said. ``Bonds will be a terrible place to be for many years and will in fact be going down for many years.''
Rogers said he remains bullish on commodities because ``that's where the big fortunes are going to be made in the world in the next five, or 10 or 15 years. The current bull market is going to last until sometime between 2014 and 2022.''
This in last night's email from Jim Sinclair,
Gee things are getting a little panicky out there!
Buffet on Bloomberg, is saying this morning to not buy Chinese stocks, Jim Rodgers is going into the Yuan and PM’S, and now Sinclair is sending out this warning.
It seems like the warning buttons are being pushed around the planet?
Dear CIGAs,Many of you have asked what exactly I mean by “This is it,” so here it is in point form:
1. There is a rampant, serious financial problem with terminal potential and no practical solution hidden just outside of the public’s view (OTC Derivatives).
2. Because central banks have gotten so out of hand and political which cannot be controlled by investors or the man in the street, we need to adjust our actions so that each person takes on the responsibilities normal to central banks for their own finances.
3. Everything we buy is getting more expensive and many assets people have, other than gold, are losing value. Because of this credit is not a proper idea regardless of the weak dollar for the majority of people reading this.
4. Major financial institutions, Internet financial entities and banks operate without transparency where their derivative holdings are concerned. Losses the financial institutions are publishing are considered by media as having extinguished all the risk. I do not believe this. I believe they are still marked to model, only the model is moving slowly towards reality of worthlessness.
5. There is an acceleration of bankruptcy among financial institutions. This translates to the individual needing to act as their own financial institution by having their share investments in paper form, gold in their close possession with no one in-between and available cash. The individual must be their own bank and central bank as one has failed us and both may.
6. The savings rate in the US is negative while the expansion of credit is totally over the top.
7. Business is turning south so the US Federal Budget Deficit will move up exponentially.
8. The US dollar has become a bombed out and lost battle zone. There is nothing good anyone can say fundamentally about the US dollar.
9. Non US entities are fed up with financing the US consumer and US Federal activities. This is clear from the recent TIC report, which is now down trending.
10. Financial privacy is non-existent.
11. There is a model for exactly what is happening now and that is the Weimar Republic. Name war retributions as OTC derivatives and you begin to see the picture.
12. The US dollar has now made a clear indication of the final head and shoulders; the massive formation from the absolute top is breaking down.Number 12 is the item that impacts all of the above because of the dollar’s technical position now beginning to reflect the dire fundamentals. This is itThis is it because you now have to perform not only as your own bank but also as your own central bank. This is it because the US dollar has completed a major head and shoulders bear formation, pulled back to the underside of the neckline and thereafter declining below the major support line drawn from the beginning of the big dollar bull under Chairman Paul Volcker. Volcker made the dollar and Greenspan gave it all back to Asia.
The dollar break below the recent and most important major, major support line drawn from 1980 to now is the fundamental basis which will push Gold to $1650.
The US dollar is without any doubt in my mind is going to .7200, followed by .6200.Ladies and gentlemen, prepare to defend yourselves."
You are right. It would be considered illegal if the legal system worked.
I knew it would happen.
roadrunner
<< <i>Link
This is an eyeopener, and I have been tracking this for a while now! >>
"I prefer to deal in documented facts and figures, and not to guess what the total amount might be, but there are no reporting requirements or clearinghouse data available. Were it not for the class-action settlement involving Morgan Stanley, I’m sure many would deny this situation existed at all. Fortunately, because of this case, no one can deny the practice of unbacked silver certificates exists."
This fraud has been going on since the '70's and has been mentioned in this thread.
The saddest part about this is that many people who believe thay are long silver will
actually lose their entire investment when the financial institution is dragged under by
this nonsense. The best part is that as more people awaken to the fraud they will pull
their money out of these and buy real silver.
These fraudulent accounts essentially remove most of the REAL DEMAND for silver by
telling purchasers they have the product and even charge for storage. If these "owners"
knew they don't really have silver they would go out and buy it.
We live in a world with very little silver left and mountains of paper silver to hide it.
Camelot
Interesting point. But if you are still selling paper silver and charging spot+ for it, you are promoting spot. If you don't have the silver but sell the paper anyway, the game stays on. How can you physically supress the price of silver (albeit nothing) you are selling?
I would never feed the paper silver sellers...give me my PM or maybe an etf.
I didn't say that you are physically suppressing the price of silver you are selling. I said that if you don't take physical possession of the silver that you buy, your own purchase of paper is working against you, by removing your order to buy silver from the demand side of the equation.
If a whole bunch of orders to buy silver are removed from the equation, then the price doesn't react to the upside as it normally would. So, in a perverse way, your buy order isn't even reflected in the market and the true market demand evaporates into nothingness, which keeps the price from rising. If the price doesn't rise after you buy the silver, then you don't make any money by owning it.
If someone is manipulating prices, usually the government takes a dim view. In this case, it seems that the government is in cahoots. It seems obvious that there are two sets of rules. They always try very hard to leave the little guy holding the bag, and physical possession seems to be the only way to prevent them from doing that.
I knew it would happen.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
roadrunner
<< <i>Imagine if the likes of the Hunt Bros tried to corner the physical silver market today. It would take a lot of money and even more guts but would knock Wall Street into a tailspin with a lot of bang for each buck. Wouldn't have to go the distance, just enough to provide a paper silver sell catalyst. With the right coordination, it would take down some Goliaths. >>
I fear this is the real problem.
All it really requires is enough net buying by the public to have
the exact same effect. When deliveries can't be made because
the metal doesn't actually exist plant and equipment will be shut
down in the real world. Many of those who believe they are long
will lose not only their profit but their principle as well because dead
goliaths are exempt from paying off.
Goliaths don't go down. They get bailed out by the government. Lazzez Faire only exists for the small guy.
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"Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do." - Rudy Giuliani
“Imagine if the likes of the Hunt Bros tried to corner the physical silver market today.”
Now this is a great idea, and there are mostly a few guys around here that could get together and pull this off.
Don’t we have some billionaires here?
Think about this, the Hunts were some of the few people on the planet that could do this back in the 70’s.
Today there are 400 some odd billionaires. In addition the Hunts were buying millions of dollars worth of silver at $20 to $35 dollars an ounce with REAL un-inflated money.
There are dozens of credible billionaires, that have lunch, that could put together a small group and just buy it all, build a vault in the middle of a ten thousand acre ranch and demand delivery. Talk about a 100 billion dollar play, WOW?
Who can we talk into doing this?
Free markets would be nice if they were free. The manipulation continues.
* Plunge Protection Team
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"Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do." - Rudy Giuliani
Merrill Lynch Reports Loss on $8.4 Billion Writedown (Update4)
By Bradley Keoun
Oct. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Merrill Lynch & Co. reported the biggest quarterly loss in its 93-year history after $8.4 billion of writedowns, the most by any securities firm.
The third-quarter loss of $2.24 billion, or $2.82 a share, was about six times higher than the New York-based company estimated on Oct. 5. Merrill wrote down the value of subprime mortgages, asset-backed bonds and loans to finance leveraged buyouts, and Chief Executive Officer Stanley O'Neal said in a statement today that he is ``working to resolve the remaining impact from our positions.''
Merrill fell as much as 3.1 percent in New York trading and now ranks as this year's worst performer among the five largest investment banks, after O'Neal misjudged the severity of the decline in the credit markets since July. Investors who lauded the 56-year-old CEO for chasing higher returns now question his management as the firm became the biggest underwriter of debt securities backed by subprime loans.
``We're very disappointed,'' said Rose Grant, who helps manage about $2 billion at Eastern Investment Advisors in Boston, including Merrill shares. ``I don't think Stan O'Neal will step down, but you do have to look at top management and wonder why they didn't know the extent of this loss.'' ..........
SIV's and SUV's.....they will always be linked together.
roadrunner