Hypothetically If I had been aware of the current situation for some time and had accumulated a strong position in physical gold and silver on deposit or in the case of an IRA in a secure trust, I would have this concern.
Small increases in value cause by a decline in the dollar are profitable but a major currency crash possibly followed by a switch to the Amero could bring us back to 1933. The bullion in the banks and trusts would be "liberated" by the fed rather quickly. Even if I was able to forsee the problem and get some in my hands Im sure the sale of gold would become illegal as would any attempt to "smuggle" it across a border. I could not move it and could not sell it. Silver may face the same fate as gold.
Any idea of a way to protect bullion from this type of theft?? What does it take to set up a deposit in Mexico or Canada, would these be safe from confiscation by the North American Union?? How about Switzerland or something?? Can current bullion be moved? Can I set up a Gold IRA in another country? Any help or ideas.
I am no lawyer and I did not stay at Holiday Inn Express last night, but I would imagine that if you had a gold account in say Switzerland, and the USA had outlawed gold transactions, that you, as a US citizen, would be liable for breaking that law if you ever tried to sell your overseas holdings. So you might have a stockpile, but it would not be very useful.
Can any lawyer out there speak to how this principal works?
I also wonder if any of our Patriot Act (and similar laws) allowing the Feds to look into foreign dealings of citizens would allow them to find offshore caches of metals like this and have them demand that you turn it over.
Mark Piersall Random Collector www.marksmedals.com
On this topic, I believe that numismatic gold (63 saints at spot + $200) are beyond the law. I do know that they are protected but they might put a limit on individual holdings of numismatic gold as they did in '33. Seems to me that if you had a couple or few of rolls of saints and peeled a couple or three off every now and then (at about a K+ apiece), you would be a good law abiding citizen. Now, there will surely be new rules for these transactions and you won't walk away invisible, like you can now but at least you will be able to turn metal into currency since numismatic PM is protected or at least has been previous to now.
You can be sure that etf's, off shore accounts, gold ira's, etc., if allowed to exist at all, would be so heavily watched that you would probably need some special ruling or descriminatory Ir s form to let you turn them into what ever type of cash we are using in the future. If you look at the recent evolution of hom eland type laws and having just witnessed the love between the big banks and the fed, you can surely extrapolate that into a future vision that includes some kind of log created for every transaction, particularly over 10K. You might have caught the tread about a guy getting carded for personal information for a cc purchase over a $100. It is not alarmism, it's just the way things are moving.
It does seem to follow that either a brit or can bank could be an interesting alternative to where we are going but it would take one of our dual citizens to probably give us the line on this option. I do like the can option but the mex option can't possibly be good because they tend to nationalize things when they want them. Of course maybe if it was gold pesos in a mex safe deposit box...hummmm but then you still have to turn them into cash and that's got to be tricky. Let's see what the group comes up with...
Good topic and timely also.
Keep your metal PM and close, keep it numismatic, keep it quiet. Life is good.
Fill up your tanks! Oil is up +3.26 bbl and sits at $90.36
ttown,
I think the PM's and oil is moving up in advance of the Fed lowering the rate next week, or thats the way they are betting. Lots of folks trying to get ahead of the Game here!
Hypothetically If I had been aware of the current situation for some time and had accumulated a strong position in physical gold and silver on deposit or in the case of an IRA in a secure trust, I would have this concern.
Small increases in value cause by a decline in the dollar are profitable but a major currency crash possibly followed by a switch to the Amero could bring us back to 1933. The bullion in the banks and trusts would be "liberated" by the fed rather quickly. Even if I was able to forsee the problem and get some in my hands Im sure the sale of gold would become illegal as would any attempt to "smuggle" it across a border. I could not move it and could not sell it. Silver may face the same fate as gold.
Any idea of a way to protect bullion from this type of theft?? What does it take to set up a deposit in Mexico or Canada, would these be safe from confiscation by the North American Union?? How about Switzerland or something?? Can current bullion be moved? Can I set up a Gold IRA in another country? Any help or ideas. >>
No problem. Turn it into jewelry. The government did not confiscate gold jewelry in 1933, nor would they ever try. Can you imagine the uproar if they ordered people to turn in their wedding rings? Their gold chains and crosses they got from grandma as a gift? Gold earrings their husbands/boyfriends brought back from a business trip overseas? The soccermoms would have an absolute hissy fit if they had to give up their precious baubles. Any politician attempting this would be committing suicide.
Set your saints/eagles/whatever in bezels and call them jewelry. The government has no right to say you can't dress like Mr. T if you want to.
Given that the Government has made a tidy profit over the years, and continues to do so BTW, through the selling of silver, gold and platinum bullion coins, I don't see any sort of confiscation in the future.
I also don't see any special division between pre-1933 gold coins and current bullion coins. If it came right down to that, and the jackboots were used to forcefully confiscate PMs, there wouldn't be any distinction.
I suspect they might collect more ballistic jacketed lead than precious metals in their attempt to do so.
I really think there is a huge disconnect between D.C. and the population of this nation. People are already beyond fed up. I'd expect a civil war before I'd expect confiscation. Not that I wish to see either.
I think this entire confiscation argument is frivolous. It just isn't going to happen.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Confiscation (forced selling) is very unlikely. It would imply a total collapse of confidence in currency and there would be bigger fish to fry than gathering up the gold. This isn't impossible, merely unlikely. It's more likely the dollar will be ground down to nothing before this happens and this isn't going to happen overnight.
My opinion here is that gold confiscation is highly unlikely. If one were afraid of that one should buy coins only, every single coin is potential a collectable by someone. Billions of dollars in taxes would be lost each year if the gold markets/ commodity markets were shut down here. In addition all the big money would just buy gold out of Hong Kong, or London in an offshore accounts via ETF’S etc.
In addition there is not enough gold in the entire world even to cover the current debt, and the upcoming liabilities the U.S. has. I am not sure we could even back the dollar with a tenth of an ounce, so why bother?
All of the gold, and then silver, trusts would be chased offshore to say nothing of the ETF’S etc.
No my friends we have only three choices here:
First our government comes to their senses and begins cutting all government programs, including wars, by 50%. ( very very unlikely)
Second, we continue to find suckers in the world to buy our debt. (becoming more unlikely each month)
Third, the government taxes all of us to the point of poverty, and the printing presses roll, causing accelerated inflation beyond our current recognition. (more than likely)
Hypothetically If I had been aware of the current situation for some time and had accumulated a strong position in physical gold and silver on deposit or in the case of an IRA in a secure trust, I would have this concern.
Small increases in value cause by a decline in the dollar are profitable but a major currency crash possibly followed by a switch to the Amero could bring us back to 1933. The bullion in the banks and trusts would be "liberated" by the fed rather quickly. Even if I was able to forsee the problem and get some in my hands Im sure the sale of gold would become illegal as would any attempt to "smuggle" it across a border. I could not move it and could not sell it. Silver may face the same fate as gold.
Any idea of a way to protect bullion from this type of theft?? What does it take to set up a deposit in Mexico or Canada, would these be safe from confiscation by the North American Union?? How about Switzerland or something?? Can current bullion be moved? Can I set up a Gold IRA in another country? Any help or ideas. >>
The govt isnt going to "steal" your gold. And thats the final answer. Dont tell me about the past, it isnt ever going to happen. You have much greater things to be concerned about.
Thanks for the replies, I'll concentrate my efforts in other directions.
One comment though
<< <i>People are already beyond fed up. I'd expect a civil war before I'd expect confiscation. >>
had me surprised,
From what I can tell 90% of America is totally oblivious and is only concerned about the weekend at the mall. They still believe we can just keep printing all the money the govenment is spending and giving away with no end.
<< <i>From what I can tell 90% of America is totally oblivious and is only concerned about the weekend at the mall. They still believe we can just keep printing all the money the govenment is spending and giving away with no end. >>
And THAT is what makes the world go around! Ever since the gold standard was removed, the dollar became monopoly money. The reason it works is people actually THINK it is worth something other than the paper it is printed on.
Oh but wait! It's not worthless because it is backed by the faith and trust of the US Government? OK, so that should make me feel good?? lol
It has also been rumored that the FED's didn't want Buffet holding 100 MILL ounces of silver and told him to sell his stash. Move over Bunker old buddy you got company.
<< <i>It has also been rumored that the FED's didn't want Buffet holding 100 MILL ounces of silver and told him to sell his stash. Move over Bunker old buddy you got company.
roadrunner >>
Hadn't heard that...... but I have wondered just why Buffet got out of the stash so quickly when he sounded so bullish when he had bought it. Seemed very strange. So it certainly makes me wonder.....
Sinclair hinted a year or so ago that Buffet dumped silver to help out the cartel if they in turn helped him out. It sounded sort of shady to be sure. Axstone over on the GoldisMoney website broached the subject again this week in the wake of Buffet's high visibility plane flight with the crew of CNBC news. He bailed out somewhere in the $7-9/oz range from what I read. Bad move as we shall all see down the road.....yeah I know........you can't eat silver either.
Ah, the physical metal is loose. It should be interesting to see what the paper gold guys do now. Hold tight men, wait till you see the whites of their eyes, check your load, hold your positions. This is gonna look like 10 monkeys chasin' a football.
<< <i>Ah, the physical metal is loose. It should be interesting to see what the paper gold guys do now. Hold tight men, wait till you see the whites of their eyes, check your load, hold your positions. This is gonna look like 10 monkeys chasin' a football. >>
Neat visual analogy. I can apply that to the FMOC trying to balance things like inevitable $100 oil inflation vs credit crunches right now too.
There's a lot of unwarranted paranoia on this board. The government isn't going to steal your gold. And I've seen no evidence whatsoever that there is some conspiracy to keep the price of gold and silver low. Let's keep this discussion grounded in reality.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
This is definitely a scandal that I hope will now continue to be made public. Morgan Stanley is NOT the only one doing this; it appears that it is a widespread practice. In fact, if I recall correctly, Morgan Stanley in their defense made a statement to the effect of.... they are doing nothing different than the rest of the industry is doing.
There is NO SUBSTITUTE for holding the physical metals in your own possession. Any other method is a paper contract and.... good luck with that when the music stops playing.
In fact, I am not sure I am comfortable with the ETF's either. If I recall in their fine print, they also can play games with contracts, etc.... so there may be some surprises with those eventually also.
"No matter how you try to blame it on the president the actual responsibility for it really would be for the troops that were there. Did they search carefully enough? Didn't they search carefully enough?" - Rudy Giuliani on the Today Show not supporting the troops
“In fact, I am not sure I am comfortable with the ETF's either.”
There is no doubt that everyone must be extremely cautious in these times. I think over the last few years of our thread we should have no doubt that morality is out the window, and the liars and thieves are out in force!
In addition we can all expect things to get worse, as desperate people do desperate things.
Even though I am personally playing the ETF’S at this time, this is being done with a very small percentage of my holdings. That said, many of us here have been preparing for all of this for many many years, and any new comers that are just getting started should take passion of their PM’s.
This is definitely a scandal that I hope will now continue to be made public. Morgan Stanley is NOT the only one doing this; it appears that it is a widespread practice. In fact, if I recall correctly, Morgan Stanley in their defense made a statement to the effect of.... they are doing nothing different than the rest of the industry is doing.
There is NO SUBSTITUTE for holding the physical metals in your own possession. Any other method is a paper contract and.... good luck with that when the music stops playing.
In fact, I am not sure I am comfortable with the ETF's either. If I recall in their fine print, they also can play games with contracts, etc.... so there may be some surprises with those eventually also. >>
This is not a big deal. McDonalds paid more for a lady who spilled hot coffee on her lap.
I got news for you, when the music stop playing, nothing will be worth anything.
Who cares what the ETFs are??!! Just buy them and sell them and make money. Everyone needs to relax and enjoy the world series this weekend. The world isnt going to end and even if it did, you would be dead, so enjoy life and enjoy this amazing asset inflation.
"I got news for you, when the music stop playing, nothing will be worth anything.
Who cares what the ETFs are??!! Just buy them and sell them and make money. Everyone needs to relax and enjoy the world series this weekend. The world isnt going to end and even if it did, you would be dead, so enjoy life and enjoy this amazing asset inflation." , said the hare to the tortoise.....
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>It has also been rumored that the FED's didn't want Buffet holding 100 MILL ounces of silver and told him to sell his stash. Move over Bunker old buddy you got company.
roadrunner >>
My understanding of this "rumor" is that Buffet had well over 100 MILL ounces and was moving towards increasing his holdings to a large degree. It was at that point the the FEDs quietly had a talk with him as was on the verge of acquiring roughly 1/3 of all the known physical .999 bullion silver on the planet when he was given the word that such a move would be severely frowned upon. Shortly afterward he moved out of his position with silver. I still wonder about Bill Gates who was rumored to have had somewhere north of 60 MILL ounces himself at the time.
I suppose that's one of those urban legends that we'll never really know the facts about.
Personally, I'd like to see them both buy up all they can, I think that would do wonders for the holders of physical metal versus the paper holders. It would certainly force some weak hands to ante up or fold.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>Thanks for the replies, I'll concentrate my efforts in other directions.
One comment though
<< <i>People are already beyond fed up. I'd expect a civil war before I'd expect confiscation. >>
had me surprised,
From what I can tell 90% of America is totally oblivious and is only concerned about the weekend at the mall. They still believe we can just keep printing all the money the govenment is spending and giving away with no end. >>
That's a bit out of context.....the entire line was "I really think there is a huge disconnect between D.C. and the population of this nation. People are already beyond fed up. I'd expect a civil war before I'd expect confiscation. Not that I wish to see either."
When Congress has an 11% approval rating and the President only about twice that, I do see a huge disconnect and I do see a lot of fed up people who have had enough.
From what I can tell, the people really are riled up, which was why I said that the populace would never accept confiscation. Most folks I know and I include my neighbors as just a small sample, already know we are being taxed to death and that the dollar is in the process of crashing and burning. It doesn't take a long conversation to figure out that those who are oblivious are in the minority.
I suppose some areas of the country are more oblivious than others.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i> This is not a big deal. McDonalds paid more for a lady who spilled hot coffee on her lap.
I got news for you, when the music stop playing, nothing will be worth anything.
Who cares what the ETFs are??!! Just buy them and sell them and make money. Everyone needs to relax and enjoy the world series this weekend. The world isnt going to end and even if it did, you would be dead, so enjoy life and enjoy this amazing asset inflation. >>
I think Cohodk makes a good point here. We live in an enormously wealthy country. Right now our economy is experiencing some turbulence, but it's a great opportunity to make some money and achieve your financial goals. Neither gold nor silver - nor anything else - has an intrinsic value apart from what people think it's worth.
The best time to sell is when many others are buying. If I was sitting on a pile of gold right now which I had bought at 250 or 300 an ounce (which I'm not), I would get out of most of it and put the money elsewhere. Personally, I would put the money in real estate, which is currently disfavored but which in the long run throws off income every month and appreciates in value. In my neighborhood in Chicago, you can buy a nice 2 bedroom apartment for around $300,000. You can rent that sucker out for $2,000 a month with no problem. Even after taxes and fees, you've got some real money coming in. Get a couple of those under your control and you'll do better than 95% of the guys out there.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<< <i> This is not a big deal. McDonalds paid more for a lady who spilled hot coffee on her lap.
I got news for you, when the music stop playing, nothing will be worth anything.
Who cares what the ETFs are??!! Just buy them and sell them and make money. Everyone needs to relax and enjoy the world series this weekend. The world isnt going to end and even if it did, you would be dead, so enjoy life and enjoy this amazing asset inflation. >>
I think Cohodk makes a good point here. We live in an enormously wealthy country. Right now our economy is experiencing some turbulence, but it's a great opportunity to make some money and achieve your financial goals. Neither gold nor silver - nor anything else - has an intrinsic value apart from what people think it's worth.
The best time to sell is when many others are buying. If I was sitting on a pile of gold right now which I had bought at 250 or 300 an ounce (which I'm not), I would get out of most of it and put the money elsewhere. Personally, I would put the money in real estate, which is currently disfavored but which in the long run throws off income every month and appreciates in value. In my neighborhood in Chicago, you can buy a nice 2 bedroom apartment for around $300,000. You can rent that sucker out for $2,000 a month with no problem. Even after taxes and fees, you've got some real money coming in. Get a couple of those under your control and you'll do better than 95% of the guys out there. >>
Wow...just wow. Real estate is probably the absolute worst place to put money right now, and will continue to be a poor investment for at least 3 more years.
Chicago isn't cheap. But it's worth the money 8 or 9 months out of the year until winter hits. And compared with some other cities, it's a bargain!
If you want a short-term investment, real estate is not the place to be. But it's precisely that negative sentiment that makes it a good investment long-term. Real estate in a solid area with a good income stream is a great bet if you can get it for the right price. If I had the money, I would be down in Florida right now picking up condos from the hands of speculators who lost their shirts. You've gotta think counterintuitively. Buying high and hoping something goes higher is a game for fools, not investors.
Thinking counterintuitively is what made gold a good purchase when it was 250 or 300 an ounce six, seven years ago when the press was full of stories about how central bank dumping of gold would cause the price to go even lower. Back then, I didn't have the money for investing, but I recommended gold (along with oil stocks and foreign-company stocks) to my father in law. True story. Both were dirt cheap and from the sound of things, they were going lower. But now they've risen sky-high in price, and everyone thinks they're a good investment. If youre horizon is long term (3 to 5 years plus), now is precisely the time to look at some assets that are getting clobbered.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
Like Warren Buffet says, you make money when you buy an investment. If you pay too much you limit your potential return. Real estate will go down hard for the next few years. Why pay $300K now, watch it go down to $200 or less in 3 years. Sure, it might be up to $400K 10 years from now and you can say you made 100K in 10 years. It would be better to buy it 3 years from now for $200K and double your money in 7 years instead of making 33% in 10 years.
I hope you're right, but I doubt you'll see anything approaching a 33% drop in most markets. Chicago had a modest run-up from 2002-2005, so there is less room to fall. To give you an example - I bought a condo in Chicago in 2005 for $320k. The prior owner bought it in 2001, before the nationwide real estate boom started, for $244k. That's a 31% increase in 4 years, which is a lot, but it's much less than the increases in other cities. Actually, it's less than 31% because the value of the condo increased after they levied a special assessment and the prior owner had to pay $15k for building improvements.
And today? Prices haven't really moved; they are maybe down by 2 or 3 percent. I would be shocked if prices dropped to $200k. That would mean that you were getting back 1% of the price every month in rent. At that level, investors would swoop in to pick up properties. Potentially, if interest rates rose to 10 or 12% for mortgages, you could see a real drop of 15 or 20%. But then you'd be paying off the old fixed-rate 6% mortgage under very favorable circumstances; you'd probably be getting 9% interest on CDs if mortgage rates were that high.
Some markets will undoubtedly see a good-sized fall though - I wouldn't touch real estate in a place like Boston, for example. The huge run up there makes it obvious there will be a fall of some magnitude. However, economists will tell you that current prices - be it real estate or stocks - already reflect peoples' expectations about future prices. That means that, in general, prices already have your expectation of a decline factored in.
A bigger issue for me is inflation. I happen to think that if you can borrow US dollars for 30 years at 6 or 6.25% fixed rate, that's a steal. As everything goes in cycles, including inflation, my guess is that the US will experience some substantial inflation down the road. It may be 5 years from now or 7 years from now, but it's coming. When it hits, it -- like the other turbulence we are experiencing -- will be another opportunity to make money.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
Well at least you'll be able to feed those gold bullion coins to your children
Edited to add: My serious point here is that something esoteric like gold probably won't be of much value in that kind of situation - especially considering the problems with counterfeits that we currently have which dissuade people from buying.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
my guess is that the US will experience some substantial inflation down the road. It may be 5 years from now or 7 years from now, but it's coming. When it hits, it -- like the other turbulence we are experiencing -- will be another opportunity to make money.
Crude > $92.00/bbl. That's inflation. Yes, I know - energy costs aren't figured into the inflation rate. Now, why would that be?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Crude > $92.00/bbl. That's inflation. Yes, I know - energy costs aren't figured into the inflation rate. Now, why would that be?
We all know why it's not figured in. Excluding food, fuel, and housing prices from inflation is like counting calories in your diet but pretending like twinkies, ho-hos, and ice cream don't count. It's fundamentally a deceptive tactic by the government. But knowing that makes me LMAO when I take out a long-term fixed rate loan on property.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
Very funny... actually, my 8-month old would probably eat one if he got his hands on it !!
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<< <i>Wow...just wow. Real estate is probably the absolute worst place to put money right now, and will continue to be a poor investment for at least 3 more years. >>
It certainly is in Texas right now. Prices are dropping 30-40% in some areas and property taxes are rising 10% annually. Many people are losing their homes to taxes and it's not uncommon for your taxes to be more than your mortgage.
I'd gladly sell my home to the county right now for 80% of their appraised value for taxation. I doubt I could sell it for for much more than 60%, if that. I've seen homes in my neighborhood valued at close to $450K for tax purposes end up selling for around $240K. Seen it happen twice in just the last 3 months. Those two were probably ARMs, but I don't know. I do know it's got everyone walking on eggs. All of this crash in home values has happened in just the last 9 months or so.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Comments
Hypothetically If I had been aware of the current situation for some time and had accumulated a strong position in physical gold and silver on deposit or in the case of an IRA in a secure trust, I would have this concern.
Small increases in value cause by a decline in the dollar are profitable but a major currency crash possibly followed by a switch to the Amero could bring us back to 1933. The bullion in the banks and trusts would be "liberated" by the fed rather quickly. Even if I was able to forsee the problem and get some in my hands Im sure the sale of gold would become illegal as would any attempt to "smuggle" it across a border. I could not move it and could not sell it. Silver may face the same fate as gold.
Any idea of a way to protect bullion from this type of theft?? What does it take to set up a deposit in Mexico or Canada, would these be safe from confiscation by the North American Union?? How about Switzerland or something?? Can current bullion be moved? Can I set up a Gold IRA in another country? Any help or ideas.
Can any lawyer out there speak to how this principal works?
I also wonder if any of our Patriot Act (and similar laws) allowing the Feds to look into foreign dealings of citizens would allow them to find offshore caches of metals like this and have them demand that you turn it over.
Random Collector
www.marksmedals.com
You can be sure that etf's, off shore accounts, gold ira's, etc., if allowed to exist at all, would be so heavily watched that you would probably need some special ruling or descriminatory Ir s form to let you turn them into what ever type of cash we are using in the future. If you look at the recent evolution of hom eland type laws and having just witnessed the love between the big banks and the fed, you can surely extrapolate that into a future vision that includes some kind of log created for every transaction, particularly over 10K. You might have caught the tread about a guy getting carded for personal information for a cc purchase over a $100. It is not alarmism, it's just the way things are moving.
It does seem to follow that either a brit or can bank could be an interesting alternative to where we are going but it would take one of our dual citizens to probably give us the line on this option. I do like the can option but the mex option can't possibly be good because they tend to nationalize things when they want them. Of course maybe if it was gold pesos in a mex safe deposit box...hummmm but then you still have to turn them into cash and that's got to be tricky. Let's see what the group comes up with...
Good topic and timely also.
Keep your metal PM and close, keep it numismatic, keep it quiet. Life is good.
Fill up your tanks! Oil is up +3.26 bbl and sits at $90.36
ttown,
I think the PM's and oil is moving up in advance of the Fed lowering the rate next week, or thats the way they are betting. Lots of folks trying to get ahead of the Game here!
<< <i>Question for my forum associates
Hypothetically If I had been aware of the current situation for some time and had accumulated a strong position in physical gold and silver on deposit or in the case of an IRA in a secure trust, I would have this concern.
Small increases in value cause by a decline in the dollar are profitable but a major currency crash possibly followed by a switch to the Amero could bring us back to 1933. The bullion in the banks and trusts would be "liberated" by the fed rather quickly. Even if I was able to forsee the problem and get some in my hands Im sure the sale of gold would become illegal as would any attempt to "smuggle" it across a border. I could not move it and could not sell it. Silver may face the same fate as gold.
Any idea of a way to protect bullion from this type of theft?? What does it take to set up a deposit in Mexico or Canada, would these be safe from confiscation by the North American Union?? How about Switzerland or something?? Can current bullion be moved? Can I set up a Gold IRA in another country? Any help or ideas. >>
No problem. Turn it into jewelry. The government did not confiscate gold jewelry in 1933, nor would they ever try. Can you imagine the uproar if they ordered people to turn in their wedding rings? Their gold chains and crosses they got from grandma as a gift? Gold earrings their husbands/boyfriends brought back from a business trip overseas? The soccermoms would have an absolute hissy fit if they had to give up their precious baubles. Any politician attempting this would be committing suicide.
Set your saints/eagles/whatever in bezels and call them jewelry. The government has no right to say you can't dress like Mr. T if you want to.
I also don't see any special division between pre-1933 gold coins and current bullion coins. If it came right down to that, and the jackboots were used to forcefully confiscate PMs, there wouldn't be any distinction.
I suspect they might collect more ballistic jacketed lead than precious metals in their attempt to do so.
I really think there is a huge disconnect between D.C. and the population of this nation. People are already beyond fed up. I'd expect a civil war before I'd expect confiscation. Not that I wish to see either.
I think this entire confiscation argument is frivolous. It just isn't going to happen.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
collapse of confidence in currency and there would be bigger fish to
fry than gathering up the gold. This isn't impossible, merely unlikely.
It's more likely the dollar will be ground down to nothing before this
happens and this isn't going to happen overnight.
My opinion here is that gold confiscation is highly unlikely. If one were afraid of that one should buy coins only, every single coin is potential a collectable by someone. Billions of dollars in taxes would be lost each year if the gold markets/ commodity markets were shut down here. In addition all the big money would just buy gold out of Hong Kong, or London in an offshore accounts via ETF’S etc.
In addition there is not enough gold in the entire world even to cover the current debt, and the upcoming liabilities the U.S. has. I am not sure we could even back the dollar with a tenth of an ounce, so why bother?
All of the gold, and then silver, trusts would be chased offshore to say nothing of the ETF’S etc.
No my friends we have only three choices here:
First our government comes to their senses and begins cutting all government programs, including wars, by 50%. ( very very unlikely)
Second, we continue to find suckers in the world to buy our debt. (becoming more unlikely each month)
Third, the government taxes all of us to the point of poverty, and the printing presses roll, causing accelerated inflation beyond our current recognition. (more than likely)
<< <i>Question for my forum associates
Hypothetically If I had been aware of the current situation for some time and had accumulated a strong position in physical gold and silver on deposit or in the case of an IRA in a secure trust, I would have this concern.
Small increases in value cause by a decline in the dollar are profitable but a major currency crash possibly followed by a switch to the Amero could bring us back to 1933. The bullion in the banks and trusts would be "liberated" by the fed rather quickly. Even if I was able to forsee the problem and get some in my hands Im sure the sale of gold would become illegal as would any attempt to "smuggle" it across a border. I could not move it and could not sell it. Silver may face the same fate as gold.
Any idea of a way to protect bullion from this type of theft?? What does it take to set up a deposit in Mexico or Canada, would these be safe from confiscation by the North American Union?? How about Switzerland or something?? Can current bullion be moved? Can I set up a Gold IRA in another country? Any help or ideas. >>
The govt isnt going to "steal" your gold. And thats the final answer. Dont tell me about the past, it isnt ever going to happen. You have much greater things to be concerned about.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
One comment though
<< <i>People are already beyond fed up. I'd expect a civil war before I'd expect confiscation. >>
had me surprised,
From what I can tell 90% of America is totally oblivious and is only concerned about the weekend at the mall. They still believe we can just keep printing all the money the govenment is spending and giving away with no end.
<< <i>From what I can tell 90% of America is totally oblivious and is only concerned about the weekend at the mall. They still believe we can just keep printing all the money the govenment is spending and giving away with no end. >>
And THAT is what makes the world go around! Ever since the gold standard was removed, the dollar became monopoly money. The reason it works is people actually THINK it is worth something other than the paper it is printed on.
Oh but wait! It's not worthless because it is backed by the faith and trust of the US Government? OK, so that should make me feel good?? lol
powerful as the giant companies that are politically effective in having the
Government protect their predations on the economic scene. Just as the
Hunts had them backed into a corner, the powerful interests had the
Government change the rules of the game which broke the Hunt's control
over silver and caused the Hunts ro lose almost one billion dollars. I can not
remember exactly what the change was, but it may have been changing the rules
requiring 100% payment for silver futures rather then 10% payment.
Camelot
roadrunner
<< <i>It has also been rumored that the FED's didn't want Buffet holding 100 MILL ounces of silver and told him to sell his stash. Move over Bunker old buddy you got company.
roadrunner >>
Hadn't heard that...... but I have wondered just why Buffet got out of the stash so quickly when he sounded so bullish when he had bought it. Seemed very strange. So it certainly makes me wonder.....
roadrunner
<< <i>Ah, the physical metal is loose. It should be interesting to see what the paper gold guys do now. Hold tight men, wait till you see the whites of their eyes, check your load, hold your positions. This is gonna look like 10 monkeys chasin' a football. >>
Neat visual analogy. I can apply that to the FMOC trying to balance things like inevitable $100 oil inflation vs credit crunches right now too.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
USA vs rest of world
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>Today on Reuters...paper boys, be scared >>
Selwyn Silberblatt
You'd think they'd know better than selling to a guy with such a name.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>Today on Reuters...paper boys, be scared >>
This is definitely a scandal that I hope will now continue to be made public. Morgan Stanley is NOT the only one doing this; it appears that it is a widespread practice. In fact, if I recall correctly, Morgan Stanley in their defense made a statement to the effect of.... they are doing nothing different than the rest of the industry is doing.
There is NO SUBSTITUTE for holding the physical metals in your own possession. Any other method is a paper contract and.... good luck with that when the music stops playing.
In fact, I am not sure I am comfortable with the ETF's either. If I recall in their fine print, they also can play games with contracts, etc.... so there may be some surprises with those eventually also.
What will hit $5 first - a gallon of gas or a gallon of milk?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No matter how you try to blame it on the president the actual responsibility for it really would be for the troops that were there. Did they search carefully enough? Didn't they search carefully enough?" - Rudy Giuliani on the Today Show not supporting the troops
“In fact, I am not sure I am comfortable with the ETF's either.”
There is no doubt that everyone must be extremely cautious in these times. I think over the last few years of our thread we should have no doubt that morality is out the window, and the liars and thieves are out in force!
In addition we can all expect things to get worse, as desperate people do desperate things.
Even though I am personally playing the ETF’S at this time, this is being done with a very small percentage of my holdings. That said, many of us here have been preparing for all of this for many many years, and any new comers that are just getting started should take passion of their PM’s.
<< <i>
<< <i>Today on Reuters...paper boys, be scared >>
This is definitely a scandal that I hope will now continue to be made public. Morgan Stanley is NOT the only one doing this; it appears that it is a widespread practice. In fact, if I recall correctly, Morgan Stanley in their defense made a statement to the effect of.... they are doing nothing different than the rest of the industry is doing.
There is NO SUBSTITUTE for holding the physical metals in your own possession. Any other method is a paper contract and.... good luck with that when the music stops playing.
In fact, I am not sure I am comfortable with the ETF's either. If I recall in their fine print, they also can play games with contracts, etc.... so there may be some surprises with those eventually also. >>
This is not a big deal. McDonalds paid more for a lady who spilled hot coffee on her lap.
I got news for you, when the music stop playing, nothing will be worth anything.
Who cares what the ETFs are??!! Just buy them and sell them and make money. Everyone needs to relax and enjoy the world series this weekend. The world isnt going to end and even if it did, you would be dead, so enjoy life and enjoy this amazing asset inflation.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Who cares what the ETFs are??!! Just buy them and sell them and make money. Everyone needs to relax and enjoy the world series this weekend. The world isnt going to end and even if it did, you would be dead, so enjoy life and enjoy this amazing asset inflation." , said the hare to the tortoise.....
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>It has also been rumored that the FED's didn't want Buffet holding 100 MILL ounces of silver and told him to sell his stash. Move over Bunker old buddy you got company.
roadrunner >>
My understanding of this "rumor" is that Buffet had well over 100 MILL ounces and was moving towards increasing his holdings to a large degree. It was at that point the the FEDs quietly had a talk with him as was on the verge of acquiring roughly 1/3 of all the known physical .999 bullion silver on the planet when he was given the word that such a move would be severely frowned upon. Shortly afterward he moved out of his position with silver. I still wonder about Bill Gates who was rumored to have had somewhere north of 60 MILL ounces himself at the time.
I suppose that's one of those urban legends that we'll never really know the facts about.
Personally, I'd like to see them both buy up all they can, I think that would do wonders for the holders of physical metal versus the paper holders. It would certainly force some weak hands to ante up or fold.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
At least now we are much more aware of the gamesmanship and level of play out there.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Thanks for the replies, I'll concentrate my efforts in other directions.
One comment though
<< <i>People are already beyond fed up. I'd expect a civil war before I'd expect confiscation. >>
had me surprised,
From what I can tell 90% of America is totally oblivious and is only concerned about the weekend at the mall. They still believe we can just keep printing all the money the govenment is spending and giving away with no end. >>
That's a bit out of context.....the entire line was "I really think there is a huge disconnect between D.C. and the population of this nation. People are already beyond fed up. I'd expect a civil war before I'd expect confiscation. Not that I wish to see either."
When Congress has an 11% approval rating and the President only about twice that, I do see a huge disconnect and I do see a lot of fed up people who have had enough.
From what I can tell, the people really are riled up, which was why I said that the populace would never accept confiscation. Most folks I know and I include my neighbors as just a small sample, already know we are being taxed to death and that the dollar is in the process of crashing and burning. It doesn't take a long conversation to figure out that those who are oblivious are in the minority.
I suppose some areas of the country are more oblivious than others.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i> This is not a big deal. McDonalds paid more for a lady who spilled hot coffee on her lap.
I got news for you, when the music stop playing, nothing will be worth anything.
Who cares what the ETFs are??!! Just buy them and sell them and make money. Everyone needs to relax and enjoy the world series this weekend. The world isnt going to end and even if it did, you would be dead, so enjoy life and enjoy this amazing asset inflation. >>
I think Cohodk makes a good point here. We live in an enormously wealthy country. Right now our economy is experiencing some turbulence, but it's a great opportunity to make some money and achieve your financial goals. Neither gold nor silver - nor anything else - has an intrinsic value apart from what people think it's worth.
The best time to sell is when many others are buying. If I was sitting on a pile of gold right now which I had bought at 250 or 300 an ounce (which I'm not), I would get out of most of it and put the money elsewhere. Personally, I would put the money in real estate, which is currently disfavored but which in the long run throws off income every month and appreciates in value. In my neighborhood in Chicago, you can buy a nice 2 bedroom apartment for around $300,000. You can rent that sucker out for $2,000 a month with no problem. Even after taxes and fees, you've got some real money coming in. Get a couple of those under your control and you'll do better than 95% of the guys out there.
$300K will get you 4 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, pool, and 100 acres in my neck of the woods.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>
<< <i> This is not a big deal. McDonalds paid more for a lady who spilled hot coffee on her lap.
I got news for you, when the music stop playing, nothing will be worth anything.
Who cares what the ETFs are??!! Just buy them and sell them and make money. Everyone needs to relax and enjoy the world series this weekend. The world isnt going to end and even if it did, you would be dead, so enjoy life and enjoy this amazing asset inflation. >>
I think Cohodk makes a good point here. We live in an enormously wealthy country. Right now our economy is experiencing some turbulence, but it's a great opportunity to make some money and achieve your financial goals. Neither gold nor silver - nor anything else - has an intrinsic value apart from what people think it's worth.
The best time to sell is when many others are buying. If I was sitting on a pile of gold right now which I had bought at 250 or 300 an ounce (which I'm not), I would get out of most of it and put the money elsewhere. Personally, I would put the money in real estate, which is currently disfavored but which in the long run throws off income every month and appreciates in value. In my neighborhood in Chicago, you can buy a nice 2 bedroom apartment for around $300,000. You can rent that sucker out for $2,000 a month with no problem. Even after taxes and fees, you've got some real money coming in. Get a couple of those under your control and you'll do better than 95% of the guys out there. >>
Wow...just wow. Real estate is probably the absolute worst place to put money right now, and will continue to be a poor investment for at least 3 more years.
If you want a short-term investment, real estate is not the place to be. But it's precisely that negative sentiment that makes it a good investment long-term. Real estate in a solid area with a good income stream is a great bet if you can get it for the right price. If I had the money, I would be down in Florida right now picking up condos from the hands of speculators who lost their shirts. You've gotta think counterintuitively. Buying high and hoping something goes higher is a game for fools, not investors.
Thinking counterintuitively is what made gold a good purchase when it was 250 or 300 an ounce six, seven years ago when the press was full of stories about how central bank dumping of gold would cause the price to go even lower. Back then, I didn't have the money for investing, but I recommended gold (along with oil stocks and foreign-company stocks) to my father in law. True story. Both were dirt cheap and from the sound of things, they were going lower. But now they've risen sky-high in price, and everyone thinks they're a good investment. If youre horizon is long term (3 to 5 years plus), now is precisely the time to look at some assets that are getting clobbered.
And today? Prices haven't really moved; they are maybe down by 2 or 3 percent. I would be shocked if prices dropped to $200k. That would mean that you were getting back 1% of the price every month in rent. At that level, investors would swoop in to pick up properties. Potentially, if interest rates rose to 10 or 12% for mortgages, you could see a real drop of 15 or 20%. But then you'd be paying off the old fixed-rate 6% mortgage under very favorable circumstances; you'd probably be getting 9% interest on CDs if mortgage rates were that high.
Some markets will undoubtedly see a good-sized fall though - I wouldn't touch real estate in a place like Boston, for example. The huge run up there makes it obvious there will be a fall of some magnitude. However, economists will tell you that current prices - be it real estate or stocks - already reflect peoples' expectations about future prices. That means that, in general, prices already have your expectation of a decline factored in.
A bigger issue for me is inflation. I happen to think that if you can borrow US dollars for 30 years at 6 or 6.25% fixed rate, that's a steal. As everything goes in cycles, including inflation, my guess is that the US will experience some substantial inflation down the road. It may be 5 years from now or 7 years from now, but it's coming. When it hits, it -- like the other turbulence we are experiencing -- will be another opportunity to make money.
will be a lot of fixer upper homes
not so many people.
Camelot
<< <i>When WW 3 concludes, there
will be a lot of fixer upper homes
not so many people.
Well at least you'll be able to feed those gold bullion coins to your children
Edited to add: My serious point here is that something esoteric like gold probably won't be of much value in that kind of situation - especially considering the problems with counterfeits that we currently have which dissuade people from buying.
Crude > $92.00/bbl. That's inflation. Yes, I know - energy costs aren't figured into the inflation rate. Now, why would that be?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>When WW 3 concludes, there
will be a lot of fixer upper homes
not so many people.
A lotta extra cheap auto parts too.....
We all know why it's not figured in. Excluding food, fuel, and housing prices from inflation is like counting calories in your diet but pretending like twinkies, ho-hos, and ice cream don't count. It's fundamentally a deceptive tactic by the government. But knowing that makes me LMAO when I take out a long-term fixed rate loan on property.
Awwww mannnnnnnn...she's getting ready to eat one!
Siver was $6.85 in May of 05, so it has more than doubled.
Will it double again in 2 years? Or have we reached the climax for silver, for a while?
Wish I could tavel forward in time, it would make it so easy to decide to sell the farm. Could it be $25 an ounce in a few years?
So far I've accumulated over 1000 ounces over the past 6 years, should I sell some?
<< <i>Wow...just wow. Real estate is probably the absolute worst place to put money right now, and will continue to be a poor investment for at least 3 more years. >>
It certainly is in Texas right now. Prices are dropping 30-40% in some areas and property taxes are rising 10% annually. Many people are losing their homes to taxes and it's not uncommon for your taxes to be more than your mortgage.
I'd gladly sell my home to the county right now for 80% of their appraised value for taxation. I doubt I could sell it for for much more than 60%, if that. I've seen homes in my neighborhood valued at close to $450K for tax purposes end up selling for around $240K. Seen it happen twice in just the last 3 months. Those two were probably ARMs, but I don't know. I do know it's got everyone walking on eggs. All of this crash in home values has happened in just the last 9 months or so.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
I'm willing to go out on a limb and forecast that this thread c and will reach 5000 posts.