<< <i>f you hang around a while longer, you will really see some real doldrums as we enter 2009-2011. Most of the news around here is still comparatively "good."
Ha Ha Ha
RR I love this, see we do still have a sense of humor!!!
Higashiyama
I am sorry my friend, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Are our lives really easier than our grandparents?
Was it worth our progress to force all our women folk into the work place?
Is our travel around our own country as easy is it once was?
Are we as a country more in debt to the rest of the world as the price we have paid for globalization?
Are our children getting the education they should, considering the amount of money we are spending per child?
Is it better that we have no factories to produce anything of hard value, and no trades to pass onto our son’s?
Are we all better off now that we pay 50 to 60% of all the money we make each year to one government or another?
Are we better off as a “service economy” in which 33% of the working population has to work for one government or another because there are no other jobs for them?
It is my belief that all of the real advancements in technology, communication etc. made in the last 2 decades we would have had anyway. Countries around the world that had very little to do with any of this innovation still enjoy the same tech advances we do.
We are having class warfare in this county because the middle class working folks are getting squeezed out of the work place with no one to turn to but the government for handouts, and the problem with that is this cannot last. The government cannot just continue to keep the MOB happy by printing more paper money to send out in the mail. >>
wow kinda like a something Wise (old) Bear would write, only in 50 or less words.....(not a rip...a double compliment)
RR....we are preparing
it was tough to see Erin giggle about the market today on cnbc, i guess she will need to show some cleavage in a few months (if she has any) otherwise there won't be much excitement other than PM.
My argument would be that if we are to embrace economic and political globalization then we should have a rule book for players and a common entity to petition for fairness. The EU seems to be very forward thinking in that they have addressed Europe as a block and managed it as a effort to promote international cooperation, particularly as it may affect European members. Perhaps the global community needs to be looking at that way of thinking. But for a lay person like most of us, it seems suprising that we would even be thinking about these things but is does seem to be time.
It's really no longer a question of our choices regarding globalization, money doesn't wait, and in these modern times, politics doesn't wait either. Money is played internationally all the way from carry trade to corporate purchases and they have no respect for geopolitical boundaries. If you need something and have the resources to get it, it doesn't matter who owns it or where it is, it can possibly become yours. Politics is played the same way, internet communication via satellite relays...the game is in real time now and it is always ON. Somebody needs to be managing this evolution and I wonder who it might be or what it might look like.
The only fault that comes to mind about our involvement in globalization is that there seems to be no uniform body to bring issues to. We have the UN the world trade organization, the world bank, a small handful of different agencies and organizations but no one body that can deal penalties, set standards of uniform fairness/rules, and some one body to bring issues to. There seems to be a lack of one group of individuals, maybe like a World Board of Directors, that organizes and sets the uniform rules for global markets and the uniform rules of business that apply to those markets. Of course that again begs the question of what that might look like, who might be the president of the Global Union, who might get onto the board, what rules they would use to interact, many questions.
Maybe we should go back and reread all of the Heinlein novels again.
<< <i>f you hang around a while longer, you will really see some real doldrums as we enter 2009-2011. Most of the news around here is still comparatively "good."
Ha Ha Ha
RR I love this, see we do still have a sense of humor!!!
Higashiyama
I am sorry my friend, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Are our lives really easier than our grandparents?
Was it worth our progress to force all our women folk into the work place?
Is our travel around our own country as easy is it once was?
Are we as a country more in debt to the rest of the world as the price we have paid for globalization?
Are our children getting the education they should, considering the amount of money we are spending per child?
Is it better that we have no factories to produce anything of hard value, and no trades to pass onto our son’s?
Are we all better off now that we pay 50 to 60% of all the money we make each year to one government or another?
Are we better off as a “service economy” in which 33% of the working population has to work for one government or another because there are no other jobs for them?
It is my belief that all of the real advancements in technology, communication etc. made in the last 2 decades we would have had anyway. Countries around the world that had very little to do with any of this innovation still enjoy the same tech advances we do.
We are having class warfare in this county because the middle class working folks are getting squeezed out of the work place with no one to turn to but the government for handouts, and the problem with that is this cannot last. The government cannot just continue to keep the MOB happy by printing more paper money to send out in the mail. >>
Best post in this thread. I'm in my thirties and we've been told time and again to get a college education and we all went to college but most of my peers are working multiple low-paying service jobs with huge student loan debt. This can't continue forever.
Wow, no offense intended to anyone but maybe the problem with the U.S. is too much pessimism! Does anyone really believe we have it harder than our grandparents did? Things are far from perfect now, but who would want to go back to a time before computers, the Internet, modern medical care, etc.?
The main reasons many people have it hard financially today are 1) too much debt caused by living way beyond their means and 2) a low income caused by lack of education and/or work ethic. Either of those can be changed if we're willing to work at it and make some hard decisions. Or we can watch TV and wait for the next Great Depression. I hate to SOUND like my grandparents, but maybe we've had it too easy for too long.
It's not lack of education. People go into engineering or computer science and engineers in India make 80% less. That means US engineers have to be 5 times better and that's not realistic. While I'm sure you can find someone running up debt for plasma tv's, I know many more people runing up debt for basic necessities. Look at food and gas prices. The biggest private employer in the US is Wal-Mart. Try supporting a family working at Wal-Mart.
It's not lack of education. People go into engineering or computer science and engineers in India make 80% less. That means US engineers have to be 5 times better and that's not realistic.
You're right, and as I said in an earlier post, that situation isn't sustainable. I think that long term our wages in the US will stagnate as wages in India increase.
While I'm sure you can find someone running up debt for plasma tv's, I know many more people runing up debt for basic necessities. Look at food and gas prices. The biggest private employer in the US is Wal-Mart. Try supporting a family working at Wal-Mart.
A lot of what people consider basic necessities today are really luxuries. No one is willing to admit that they may not be able to afford something they want. We have a country that's more than generous when it comes to helping the truly needy, and that's as it should be. But the "poor" in our country would be considered wealthy or at least middle class in much of the world. If the best someone can do is a Wal-Mart job because of their level of skills or education, then you're right it will be tough to support a family. They will have to make tough choices about where they live, family size, etc. They may have to take on a second job, like my Dad did when I was a kid.
<< <i>Wow, no offense intended to anyone but maybe the problem with the U.S. is too much pessimism! Does anyone really believe we have it harder than our grandparents did? Things are far from perfect now, but who would want to go back to a time before computers, the Internet, modern medical care, etc.?
The main reasons many people have it hard financially today are 1) too much debt caused by living way beyond their means and 2) a low income caused by lack of education and/or work ethic. Either of those can be changed if we're willing to work at it and make some hard decisions. Or we can watch TV and wait for the next Great Depression. I hate to SOUND like my grandparents, but maybe we've had it too easy for too long. >>
Too much ignorance is closer to reality. Most people are happy idiots in the US. The only ones who are being pessimistic are the ones who are aware of what reality is..
I have been a member of Wash Tech/CWA for a few years now, and have watched the Information Technology business wind down to a race to the bottom. I have been in Information Processing as a Main Frame Computer Programmer/Analyst and Technical Consultant for more than 40 years. Five year ago I was earning $145 K for the year, and within 6 months due to outsourcing and globalization my salary had fallen to $60 K. Over the next two years because of my Main Frame Assembler experience I was able to build it back up to $90 K. On February 1, 2008 my lone consulting account announced that due to budget constraints and outsourcing to a new division in India, that I and many other consultants would be terminated. That, after I was there 17 months and knew and understood their systems well. On February 29, 2008 I finished the assignment, and for the first time in my working life I was on Down Time. I have been to New York and New Jersey and was told that the few jobs there were not to be given to any Americans but were to be priced so low, so that no Americans would apply, and that then they could simply outsource all of the jobs to India with no problem from any existing laws or regulations. That information was given to me by the New Jersey State Employment Service in Morristown New Jersey. I am now in my 4th week of Down Time. I have no income whatsoever and no real prospects anyplace in the U.S. to work. I have been told by the few remaining consulting firms that have not gone out of business that maybe in the next 6-12 months there might be a couple of jobs available, but not before. Within the next two months I will lose my home which I have been paying on for the last 10 years. My parents whom live with me are in a panic as they are in their 90's and depend upon me for part of their financial support. Every company I speak to is telling me the same thing, that they will outsource all of their American jobs if at all possible, and they really do not care for how it will affect the American middle class. We are in the beginning of a Great Depression. All middle class jobs maybe outsourced in the next few years without exception. The housing and financial woes that we are experiencing are but the beginning of this depression. If most factory jobs are being sent to China and most technical jobs are sent to India, then we will have a depression unlike anything that has happened since the Great Crash of 1929. That Depresson was only ended by World War II. Will World War III be the answer to this Depression ? The government can only lie to the public for so long. People are beginning to realsize that Outsourcing and Globalization simply means that we fire Americans and send their jobs overseas. As America is destroyed, China and and India are doing wonderfully. If I were younger I would consider moving to India, in order to find a job. When this country in the next 4-5 years becomes a third world country, and our children ask the question what field or profession should I enter to have a descent future -- What will the answer be, do you think ? Will the lies of Big Brother suffice at that time, when there are no jobs of any consequence, and no money to pay the mortgage or rent, or car payment, as what I am facing now ? What do I do at age 65 with a mortgage and parents to support, with no income and no help. I turn on the radio and TV and hear the present government tell the people how wonderful the war is going and how wonderful the economy is doing. Well, I guess if you are a VP of a large American company getting bonuses for terminating your American technical and office staffs or you manufacture war equipment, that statement would be true. For the rest of the country watching us all go down hill, faster and faster. What do you say then ? What do you tell your children and grand children ? Labor News
<< <i>Too much ignorance is closer to reality. Most people are happy idiots in the US. The only ones who are being pessimistic are the ones who are aware of what reality is.. >>
Dadgummit, I've been trying to understand what reality is for a long time
<< <i>It's not lack of education. People go into engineering or computer science and engineers in India make 80% less. That means US engineers have to be 5 times better and that's not realistic.
You're right, and as I said in an earlier post, that situation isn't sustainable. I think that long term our wages in the US will stagnate as wages in India increase.
While I'm sure you can find someone running up debt for plasma tv's, I know many more people runing up debt for basic necessities. Look at food and gas prices. The biggest private employer in the US is Wal-Mart. Try supporting a family working at Wal-Mart.
A lot of what people consider basic necessities today are really luxuries. No one is willing to admit that they may not be able to afford something they want. We have a country that's more than generous when it comes to helping the truly needy, and that's as it should be. But the "poor" in our country would be considered wealthy or at least middle class in much of the world. If the best someone can do is a Wal-Mart job because of their level of skills or education, then you're right it will be tough to support a family. They will have to make tough choices about where they live, family size, etc. They may have to take on a second job, like my Dad did when I was a kid. >>
US wages in real terms are continuing to go down but it doesn't have to be that way. The US government should work for the benefit of people in the US instead of India and China. I know China and India's government are working for the benefit of their people and the US should do the same. When I say basic necessities I'm talking about food to eat and gas to get to work.
<< <i>f you hang around a while longer, you will really see some real doldrums as we enter 2009-2011. Most of the news around here is still comparatively "good."
Ha Ha Ha
RR I love this, see we do still have a sense of humor!!!
Higashiyama
I am sorry my friend, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Are our lives really easier than our grandparents?-------------------------- Yes. My grandparents woke at the crack of dawn and came home at dark doing hard, physical labor. And they had to use an outhouse!!!!
Was it worth our progress to force all our women folk into the work place?----------------------------The only time women were "forced" to work was during WWII. And they were happy to do so as they were Americans. Women and men choose to work today to pay for frivilous expenses.
Is our travel around our own country as easy is it once was?--------------------- The interstate highway system didnt even exist. We have many more airline options available than ever before and we dont have to sit in smoke filled planes
Are we as a country more in debt to the rest of the world as the price we have paid for globalization? ---------------------- Probably, but if not it is our own damn fault
Are our children getting the education they should, considering the amount of money we are spending per child?------------------ My kids are. Schooling starts at home.
Is it better that we have no factories to produce anything of hard value, and no trades to pass onto our son’s?------------------------------- Look in your local phonebook. You will find hundreds of manufacturing companies. My father was a carpenter. I could have learned the trade, chose not to. Many of my friends are tradesmen. They have vocational schools that tech this stuff if you want to learn
Are we all better off now that we pay 50 to 60% of all the money we make each year to one government or another?------------------------Income taxes were much higher in the good ole days. Although I am quite pissed at my RE taxes
Are we better off as a “service economy” in which 33% of the working population has to work for one government or another because there are no other jobs for them? ----------------------This is the land of opportunity. If you dont like yoyur present job then create a new one. Millions do it every year. We all make the bed we sleep in
It is my belief that all of the real advancements in technology, communication etc. made in the last 2 decades we would have had anyway. Countries around the world that had very little to do with any of this innovation still enjoy the same tech advances we do. -----------------------------And what is wrong with that. Millions have benefitted because Hitler is dead and the Easter Bloc countries have been freed. I know you have travelled the world so you realize the common folk in other countries do not have the same quality of life or creature comforts.
We are having class warfare in this county because the middle class working folks are getting squeezed out of the work place with no one to turn to but the government for handouts, and the problem with that is this cannot last. The government cannot just continue to keep the MOB happy by printing more paper money to send out in the mail.-----------------------------Agreed!!! >>
<< <i>f you hang around a while longer, you will really see some real doldrums as we enter 2009-2011. Most of the news around here is still comparatively "good."
Ha Ha Ha
RR I love this, see we do still have a sense of humor!!!
Higashiyama
I am sorry my friend, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Are our lives really easier than our grandparents?-------------------------- Yes. My grandparents woke at the crack of dawn and came home at dark doing hard, physical labor. And they had to use an outhouse!!!!
Was it worth our progress to force all our women folk into the work place?----------------------------The only time women were "forced" to work was during WWII. And they were happy to do so as they were Americans. Women and men choose to work today to pay for frivilous expenses.
Is our travel around our own country as easy is it once was?--------------------- The interstate highway system didnt even exist. We have many more airline options available than ever before and we dont have to sit in smoke filled planes
Are we as a country more in debt to the rest of the world as the price we have paid for globalization? ---------------------- Probably, but if not it is our own damn fault
Are our children getting the education they should, considering the amount of money we are spending per child?------------------ My kids are. Schooling starts at home.
Is it better that we have no factories to produce anything of hard value, and no trades to pass onto our son’s?------------------------------- Look in your local phonebook. You will find hundreds of manufacturing companies. My father was a carpenter. I could have learned the trade, chose not to. Many of my friends are tradesmen. They have vocational schools that tech this stuff if you want to learn
Are we all better off now that we pay 50 to 60% of all the money we make each year to one government or another?------------------------Income taxes were much higher in the good ole days. Although I am quite pissed at my RE taxes
Are we better off as a “service economy” in which 33% of the working population has to work for one government or another because there are no other jobs for them? ----------------------This is the land of opportunity. If you dont like yoyur present job then create a new one. Millions do it every year. We all make the bed we sleep in
It is my belief that all of the real advancements in technology, communication etc. made in the last 2 decades we would have had anyway. Countries around the world that had very little to do with any of this innovation still enjoy the same tech advances we do. -----------------------------And what is wrong with that. Millions have benefitted because Hitler is dead and the Easter Bloc countries have been freed. I know you have travelled the world so you realize the common folk in other countries do not have the same quality of life or creature comforts.
We are having class warfare in this county because the middle class working folks are getting squeezed out of the work place with no one to turn to but the government for handouts, and the problem with that is this cannot last. The government cannot just continue to keep the MOB happy by printing more paper money to send out in the mail.-----------------------------Agreed!!! >>
Ok---I'll stir the pot here. >>
Hundreds of companies huh? Anecdotal evidence. Any real evidence to rebut his assertions? I guess we could all trade pieces of paper around but I think that's part of why we're in such a big mess. Our economy is based on trading pieces of paper around from tech stocks to securitized mortages. The "every man for himself" sounds great in theory but not in reality. From 1860 to 1915 the US had the most protectionist policies in the world and became the top economic power of the world. China is doing the same thing. Do you think China doesn't have tariffs? They have a ton of tariffs because that's what is best for their country. I agree that if the US people keep electiing "free trade" candidates, we'll deserve the misery that is starting. Grandma and Grandpa didn't need payday lenders to survive.
but who would want to go back to a time before computers, the Internet, modern medical care, etc.?
I'd have no problem with this. In essence computers have taken away more of our free time. I don't see all that much difference in modern medical care than what was available in the 1960's or 1970's.
As far as my grandparents, they lived in nice middle class houses every bit (or nicer) than mine. As a plumber by trade my fraternal grandfather worked regular hours similar to today. On the side he was a dealer/player in antiques and oriental rugs. My maternal grandfather started his own chrome plating factory that survives to this day. I'd say that they had every bit as much free time as myself if not more. My dad also worked at that Chrome Plating business for 40+ years and his typical day was 8 hours. He was always home by 5. My mother did not need to work. I've put in 10-12 hour days since I started working full time in the late 1970's. The hours have only gotten long over time. I'd say that my standard of living is no higher than my father's or grandfather's, and probably less than both. I dont' consider driving a more reliable or fuel efficient car to be all that big a deal, nor current TV's I live quite frugually, and always have. I don't need the latest tech gadgets and other than a computer and a color TV I don't think I have anything that my grandad didn't have. Don't even own a dish washing machine (I think he did -lol). My grandfather did invest in oil and insurance stocks very early on. He made quite a bit of money putting something away over 50 years. No doubt he was probably buying cheap stocks in the 1930's. At least then you owned a share of something real and not paper debt manipulations. I still admire the slower paced and more family oriented lifestyle that my father and grandfathers had. They set asset time for play and had a nice balance. I don't see that as easy to achieve today. My dad made $25K per year back in the early 1970's and I thought that was a TON of money. And it was very comfortable. Grand dad lived to be 94 and played golf at the country club up until he was 88. My dad caught a bad break with an odd form of cancer that was misdiagnosed and he passed away at 78....he always seemed to be a shoo-in to make 90 like his dad. From my perspective, they had it all....even with CNN babes, plasma TV's, cell phones, 350 hp everyday cars, turbo-tax, OTC derivatives, and American Idol. This list I could do without.
The computer tech making $145K per year should have been putting a lot of that away while times were good. If now at 65 he can't make ends meet and does not own his own, whose fault is that?
In fact, I think there is abundant evidence that foreign competition tends to cause us to work harder, be more innovative, improve our efficiency and intellectual capital, and therefore enhance our real wages.
Perhaps... but when Saudi Arabia dumped crude oil on the US market at $6/bbl, that did not improve efficiency and enhance our real wages.
I have been a member of Wash Tech/CWA for a few years now, and have watched the Information Technology business wind down to a race to the bottom. I have been in Information Processing as a Main Frame Computer Programmer/Analyst and Technical Consultant for more than 40 years. Five year ago I was earning $145 K for the year, and within 6 months due to outsourcing and globalization my salary had fallen to $60 K. Over the next two years because of my Main Frame Assembler experience I was able to build it back up to $90 K. On February 1, 2008 my lone consulting account announced that due to budget constraints and outsourcing to a new division in India, that I and many other consultants would be terminated. That, after I was there 17 months and knew and understood their systems well. On February 29, 2008 I finished the assignment, and for the first time in my working life I was on Down Time. I have been to New York and New Jersey and was told that the few jobs there were not to be given to any Americans but were to be priced so low, so that no Americans would apply, and that then they could simply outsource all of the jobs to India with no problem from any existing laws or regulations. That information was given to me by the New Jersey State Employment Service in Morristown New Jersey. I am now in my 4th week of Down Time. I have no income whatsoever and no real prospects anyplace in the U.S. to work. I have been told by the few remaining consulting firms that have not gone out of business that maybe in the next 6-12 months there might be a couple of jobs available, but not before. Within the next two months I will lose my home which I have been paying on for the last 10 years. My parents whom live with me are in a panic as they are in their 90's and depend upon me for part of their financial support. Every company I speak to is telling me the same thing, that they will outsource all of their American jobs if at all possible, and they really do not care for how it will affect the American middle class. We are in the beginning of a Great Depression. All middle class jobs maybe outsourced in the next few years without exception. The housing and financial woes that we are experiencing are but the beginning of this depression. If most factory jobs are being sent to China and most technical jobs are sent to India, then we will have a depression unlike anything that has happened since the Great Crash of 1929. That Depresson was only ended by World War II. Will World War III be the answer to this Depression ? The government can only lie to the public for so long. People are beginning to realsize that Outsourcing and Globalization simply means that we fire Americans and send their jobs overseas. As America is destroyed, China and and India are doing wonderfully. If I were younger I would consider moving to India, in order to find a job. When this country in the next 4-5 years becomes a third world country, and our children ask the question what field or profession should I enter to have a descent future -- What will the answer be, do you think ? Will the lies of Big Brother suffice at that time, when there are no jobs of any consequence, and no money to pay the mortgage or rent, or car payment, as what I am facing now ? What do I do at age 65 with a mortgage and parents to support, with no income and no help. I turn on the radio and TV and hear the present government tell the people how wonderful the war is going and how wonderful the economy is doing. Well, I guess if you are a VP of a large American company getting bonuses for terminating your American technical and office staffs or you manufacture war equipment, that statement would be true. For the rest of the country watching us all go down hill, faster and faster. What do you say then ? What do you tell your children and grand children ? Labor News
What will be the next industry to be outsourced? >>
lol. this is the equivalent of the buggy whip makers complaining about the automobile. main frame admins, programmers, and etc are a truly niche area. if this person was truly competent as he likes to claim he is there is a 1000 jobs right now over a few states in my area looking for IT help starting at 40K and up.
Times change and the smart continually evolve their skills to stay employed. Heck, Fairpoint Communications just bought a big chunk of Verizon here in New England. 100s of positions to fill that revolve around every part of IT, big and small.
I have people emailing me out of no where asking if i would like to work for them. IT is still booming. Can you say VOIP?
Medical care not different from the 60s and 70s? How many examples could I give you to change your mind on this one?
Do your best to avoid circular arguments, as it will help you reason better, because better reasoning is often a result of avoiding circular arguments.
On medical care: I'm not talking about treating people with more prescription meds and chemotherapy. Have we really changed life expectancies of the average person who reaches adulthood and eats sensibly, exercises and avoids tobacco, alchohol, processed chemicalized foods, and uneeded meds? I don't think we are that much further along for the care given to the average person. True, we may extend the lives of cancer patients a couple of years, and those years typically being full of pain and false hope. For every survivor there are how many non-survivors? The risk of dying in the hospital from infections is now greater than ever as I read it. There is more information today on how to live healthier from the simple foods we are given. Could it be that people following a decent diet is part of today's longevity increases? Giving the medical care system credit for all life expectancy increases is like giving the FED all the credit for a booming economy (lol)
I'm sure you could give me thousands or tens of thousands of positive examples. I tend to think there are a hundred million other reasons walking around out there right now around the USA who don't need to partake to any great extent in the medical care system to live and long and productive life. My advice: quit eating at McD's and Dunkin, eat the right foods and get your vitamins, minerials, and antioxidants naturally (dark berry juices, red wine, coffee in moderation, green teas, fruits and veggies). Cut down stress. Slow down. Sleep more (7-8 hrs). Exercise daily. You'd be surprised how much this would knock down most heart disease, cancer, and diabetes which is mainly what our medical care is trying to "fight." The cure is not fighting it, but preventing it. My grand dad ate 2 eggs for breakfast every morning, loved butter, ate sausage and plenty of red meats, drank whole milk, smoked a pipe or cigar several times a day....and he avoided it all.
In all seriousness though, lets not forget it was the Clintonistas who opened up the flood gates of cheap foreign labor. They even gave China favorite nation trading status.
I have been a member of Wash Tech/CWA for a few years now, and have watched the Information Technology business wind down to a race to the bottom. I have been in Information Processing as a Main Frame Computer Programmer/Analyst and Technical Consultant for more than 40 years. Five year ago I was earning $145 K for the year, and within 6 months due to outsourcing and globalization my salary had fallen to $60 K. Over the next two years because of my Main Frame Assembler experience I was able to build it back up to $90 K. On February 1, 2008 my lone consulting account announced that due to budget constraints and outsourcing to a new division in India, that I and many other consultants would be terminated. That, after I was there 17 months and knew and understood their systems well. On February 29, 2008 I finished the assignment, and for the first time in my working life I was on Down Time. I have been to New York and New Jersey and was told that the few jobs there were not to be given to any Americans but were to be priced so low, so that no Americans would apply, and that then they could simply outsource all of the jobs to India with no problem from any existing laws or regulations. That information was given to me by the New Jersey State Employment Service in Morristown New Jersey. I am now in my 4th week of Down Time. I have no income whatsoever and no real prospects anyplace in the U.S. to work. I have been told by the few remaining consulting firms that have not gone out of business that maybe in the next 6-12 months there might be a couple of jobs available, but not before. Within the next two months I will lose my home which I have been paying on for the last 10 years. My parents whom live with me are in a panic as they are in their 90's and depend upon me for part of their financial support. Every company I speak to is telling me the same thing, that they will outsource all of their American jobs if at all possible, and they really do not care for how it will affect the American middle class. We are in the beginning of a Great Depression. All middle class jobs maybe outsourced in the next few years without exception. The housing and financial woes that we are experiencing are but the beginning of this depression. If most factory jobs are being sent to China and most technical jobs are sent to India, then we will have a depression unlike anything that has happened since the Great Crash of 1929. That Depresson was only ended by World War II. Will World War III be the answer to this Depression ? The government can only lie to the public for so long. People are beginning to realsize that Outsourcing and Globalization simply means that we fire Americans and send their jobs overseas. As America is destroyed, China and and India are doing wonderfully. If I were younger I would consider moving to India, in order to find a job. When this country in the next 4-5 years becomes a third world country, and our children ask the question what field or profession should I enter to have a descent future -- What will the answer be, do you think ? Will the lies of Big Brother suffice at that time, when there are no jobs of any consequence, and no money to pay the mortgage or rent, or car payment, as what I am facing now ? What do I do at age 65 with a mortgage and parents to support, with no income and no help. I turn on the radio and TV and hear the present government tell the people how wonderful the war is going and how wonderful the economy is doing. Well, I guess if you are a VP of a large American company getting bonuses for terminating your American technical and office staffs or you manufacture war equipment, that statement would be true. For the rest of the country watching us all go down hill, faster and faster. What do you say then ? What do you tell your children and grand children ? Labor News
What will be the next industry to be outsourced? >>
lol. this is the equivalent of the buggy whip makers complaining about the automobile. main frame admins, programmers, and etc are a truly niche area. if this person was truly competent as he likes to claim he is there is a 1000 jobs right now over a few states in my area looking for IT help starting at 40K and up.
Times change and the smart continually evolve their skills to stay employed. Heck, Fairpoint Communications just bought a big chunk of Verizon here in New England. 100s of positions to fill that revolve around every part of IT, big and small.
I have people emailing me out of no where asking if i would like to work for them. IT is still booming. Can you say VOIP? >>
Great analysis, fc. While it is easy to get emotionally involved with such stories, and they ARE heartbreaking, the remedies are available to everyone. Problem is that it takes effort - but you cannot live like an ostrich with your head buried down in the dirt. Blaming "change" or shifting markets for personal disaster is like pissing in the wind.
<< <i>Any ideas why gold and silver are dropping today? >>
Citigroup is sparking the rally. (better earnings than forecast) >>
Better earnings?
Citigroup reports $5.1 billion loss, will cut 9,000 jobs
NEW YORK - Citigroup Inc. lost $5.1 billion during the first quarter and will eliminate about 9,000 more jobs, as poor bets on mortgages and leveraged loans lopped billions of dollars from its investment portfolio.
Write-downs related to mortgages and turmoil in the credit markets reached more than $12 billion, and costs stemming from consumers' credit problems surpassed $3 billion, the bank said Friday. And in a conference call with analysts, Citigroup chief financial officer Gary Crittenden said the bank, seeking to cut costs, is eliminating about 9,000 additional jobs.
<< <i>On medical care: I'm not talking about treating people with more prescription meds and chemotherapy. Have we really changed life expectancies of the average person who reaches adulthood and eats sensibly, exercises and avoids tobacco, alchohol, processed chemicalized foods, and uneeded meds? I don't think we are that much further along for the care given to the average person. True, we may extend the lives of cancer patients a couple of years, and those years typically being full of pain and false hope. For every survivor there are how many non-survivors? The risk of dying in the hospital from infections is now greater than ever as I read it. There is more information today on how to live healthier from the simple foods we are given. Could it be that people following a decent diet is part of today's longevity increases? Giving the medical care system credit for all life expectancy increases is like giving the FED all the credit for a booming economy (lol)
I'm sure you could give me thousands or tens of thousands of positive examples. I tend to think there are a hundred million other reasons walking around out there right now around the USA who don't need to partake to any great extent in the medical care system to live and long and productive life. My advice: quit eating at McD's and Dunkin, eat the right foods and get your vitamins, minerials, and antioxidants naturally (dark berry juices, red wine, coffee in moderation, green teas, fruits and veggies). Cut down stress. Slow down. Sleep more (7-8 hrs). Exercise daily. You'd be surprised how much this would knock down most heart disease, cancer, and diabetes which is mainly what our medical care is trying to "fight." The cure is not fighting it, but preventing it. My grand dad ate 2 eggs for breakfast every morning, loved butter, ate sausage and plenty of red meats, drank whole milk, smoked a pipe or cigar several times a day....and he avoided it all.
My advice: quit eating at McD's and Dunkin, eat the right foods and get your vitamins, minerials, and antioxidants naturally (dark berry juices, red wine, coffee in moderation, green teas, fruits and veggies). Cut down stress. Slow down. Sleep more (7-8 hrs). Exercise daily. You'd be surprised how much this would knock down most heart disease, cancer, and diabetes which is mainly what our medical care is trying to "fight." The cure is not fighting it, but preventing it.
I agree, that's all great advice. And 90% of Americans don't follow it, yet life expectancy continues to increase. We all know people who are alive because of earlier and better diagnoses and drugs that keep them healthy. To suggest that medical care is the same today as 40 years ago is just absurd. Why don't we just go back to a time when a simple infection could kill you, because antibiotics had not been developed yet. Yet many people today bash "Big Pharma". I just don't understand it.
If you choose to, you can find fault in anything. Like the 65 year old IT guy that still has a mortgage in spite of a six-figure income. And he apparently has no savings, since he's losing his house after just 4 weeks of unemployment. And he blames the government. Sure, it's a sad story, but shouldn't he maybe look in the mirror?
<< <i>Any ideas why gold and silver are dropping today? >>
Citigroup is sparking the rally. (better earnings than forecast) >>
Better earnings?
Citigroup reports $5.1 billion loss, will cut 9,000 jobs
NEW YORK - Citigroup Inc. lost $5.1 billion during the first quarter and will eliminate about 9,000 more jobs, as poor bets on mortgages and leveraged loans lopped billions of dollars from its investment portfolio.
Write-downs related to mortgages and turmoil in the credit markets reached more than $12 billion, and costs stemming from consumers' credit problems surpassed $3 billion, the bank said Friday. And in a conference call with analysts, Citigroup chief financial officer Gary Crittenden said the bank, seeking to cut costs, is eliminating about 9,000 additional jobs.
Stocks surge as investors overlook the banking giant's worse-than-expected results, hoping the end of the mortgage and credit mess is in sight. Honeywell and Caterpillar report strong results. Google reports a jump in profit and revenue.
Citi stock rose $1.80, or 7.5%, to $25.83 in midday trading.
Although Citigroup has lost money for two consecutive quarters, investors took today's news as more evidence that the financial crisis was nearing an end.
Citigroup's loss this quarter, while ugly, was not nearly as bad as the $9.83 billion loss the bank reported in the fourth quarter of 2007 -- its worst ever.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>Any ideas why gold and silver are dropping today? >>
>>
It's still the same forces that have been at play for the last three or four years; the unwinding of the huge debt versus the greatly increased efficiency and wealth cre- ated by global trade, the computer, and demand from developing nations.
As I've said several times the danger of being out of the stock market entirely has out- weighed the danger of being in it for a couple years now. Indeed, within a relatively short time it might be a good idea to move into some nmore speculative stocks. As always avoid the buggy whip manufacturers and services no matter how beaten down they may seem. Let someone else get rich when they recover.
I should add that today's move is primarily the result of the strenght in the dollar. If the economy takes off there will be some relaxation in the silver price and then it can explode higher.
Gold should continue to do well until the deficits are in check.
The strength of Citigroup not being insolvent today drove the market upwards. A $5 BILL loss is nothing when the FED offers free liquidity drinks at the trough of last resort.
Citigroup reports $5.1 billion loss, will cut 9,000 jobs
to rephrase...why is the market so happY?
...the market needs positive news (of any kind..even fictional..ie Citigroup) right now”
CORRECTAMUNO
“I should add that today's move is primarily the result of the strenght in the dollar.”
When gold hit $1,050 what was the Euro? Today it is $158.22!
Citi’s PE is currently 35.9 and it is losing billions with each new quarter, yet the stock was up today 4.49%
Now does this sound like the sharks are looking for suckers to buy their holdings or what?
This entire rally the last week or so is based on nothing but bad news and billions in loses. When it makes no sense it is best to stay very far away!
Gee even Google was up 20% today, exactly why do you think this was? The entire casino is rigged more than ever before. If you want to play the market pick up some cheap stocks with LOW PE’s and add to the positions on dips.
Nothing has change to make the dollar stronger! In fact lots has changed to make the dollar weaker.
OIL hit $117 today and gas is going to $4.00 in the next few weeks, that alone should be driving the market south, to say nothing of the day to day BAD news.
<< <i>The strength of Citigroup not being insolvent today drove the market upwards. A $5 BILL loss is nothing when the FED offers free liquidity drinks at the trough of last resort.
roadrunner >>
I wonder what GE paid for CitiCapital (undisclosed amount of cash for $13.4 billion of assets?? I wonder how this affected Citigroup's balance sheet??
The class distinction is getting more definition of late. There is a part of the population that can easily cope with this adjustment in prices, like $4 gas and $5 milk, in fact, it appears there are plenty of well heeled players out and about in the economic arena. But there is a signifigant part of the population that has been harmed and is reeling from these increases. The credit card companies that are getting hammered did so on the backs of the very consumers that can't pay their bills, they did indeed consume too many of their prey and now there are not enough paying consumers (mortgages, credit cards, car payments...) for them to prosper. The consumers have actually become the consumees.
There is a story called The Tragedy of the Commons that talks about an early English custom of having a common area for grazing the town's sheep. At first, the common pasture worked good, there was plenty of land and not too many sheep. As things became more successful and prosperous, the pastures became overgrazed and then were useless. It reminds me of everybody piling up on the consumer until the consumer fails.
Certainly not a time to discount those with the wherewithall, there are plenty of them and they are active. CNN interviewed George Soros today about what to do with the money. TIP's: "You pay for the protection, it may not be the worst alternative. On gold: IMF is going to sell 11B worth of gold which is temporarily depressing. Not a safe investment; maybe a good investment but not a safe one." Good but not safe? It will be interesting to see how all of this finally shakes out.
Comments
<< <i>f you hang around a while longer, you will really see some real doldrums as we enter 2009-2011. Most of the news around here is still comparatively "good."
Ha Ha Ha
RR
I love this, see we do still have a sense of humor!!!
Higashiyama
I am sorry my friend, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Are our lives really easier than our grandparents?
Was it worth our progress to force all our women folk into the work place?
Is our travel around our own country as easy is it once was?
Are we as a country more in debt to the rest of the world as the price we have paid for globalization?
Are our children getting the education they should, considering the amount of money we are spending per child?
Is it better that we have no factories to produce anything of hard value, and no trades to pass onto our son’s?
Are we all better off now that we pay 50 to 60% of all the money we make each year to one government or another?
Are we better off as a “service economy” in which 33% of the working population has to work for one government or another because there are no other jobs for them?
It is my belief that all of the real advancements in technology, communication etc. made in the last 2 decades we would have had anyway. Countries around the world that had very little to do with any of this innovation still enjoy the same tech advances we do.
We are having class warfare in this county because the middle class working folks are getting squeezed out of the work place with no one to turn to but the government for handouts, and the problem with that is this cannot last. The government cannot just continue to keep the MOB happy by printing more paper money to send out in the mail. >>
wow kinda like a something Wise (old) Bear would write, only in 50 or less words.....(not a rip...a double compliment)
RR....we are preparing
it was tough to see Erin giggle about the market today on cnbc, i guess she will need to show some cleavage in a few months (if she has any) otherwise there won't be much excitement other than PM.
It's really no longer a question of our choices regarding globalization, money doesn't wait, and in these modern times, politics doesn't wait either. Money is played internationally all the way from carry trade to corporate purchases and they have no respect for geopolitical boundaries. If you need something and have the resources to get it, it doesn't matter who owns it or where it is, it can possibly become yours. Politics is played the same way, internet communication via satellite relays...the game is in real time now and it is always ON. Somebody needs to be managing this evolution and I wonder who it might be or what it might look like.
The only fault that comes to mind about our involvement in globalization is that there seems to be no uniform body to bring issues to. We have the UN the world trade organization, the world bank, a small handful of different agencies and organizations but no one body that can deal penalties, set standards of uniform fairness/rules, and some one body to bring issues to. There seems to be a lack of one group of individuals, maybe like a World Board of Directors, that organizes and sets the uniform rules for global markets and the uniform rules of business that apply to those markets. Of course that again begs the question of what that might look like, who might be the president of the Global Union, who might get onto the board, what rules they would use to interact, many questions.
Maybe we should go back and reread all of the Heinlein novels again.
Camelot
<< <i>f you hang around a while longer, you will really see some real doldrums as we enter 2009-2011. Most of the news around here is still comparatively "good."
Ha Ha Ha
RR
I love this, see we do still have a sense of humor!!!
Higashiyama
I am sorry my friend, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Are our lives really easier than our grandparents?
Was it worth our progress to force all our women folk into the work place?
Is our travel around our own country as easy is it once was?
Are we as a country more in debt to the rest of the world as the price we have paid for globalization?
Are our children getting the education they should, considering the amount of money we are spending per child?
Is it better that we have no factories to produce anything of hard value, and no trades to pass onto our son’s?
Are we all better off now that we pay 50 to 60% of all the money we make each year to one government or another?
Are we better off as a “service economy” in which 33% of the working population has to work for one government or another because there are no other jobs for them?
It is my belief that all of the real advancements in technology, communication etc. made in the last 2 decades we would have had anyway. Countries around the world that had very little to do with any of this innovation still enjoy the same tech advances we do.
We are having class warfare in this county because the middle class working folks are getting squeezed out of the work place with no one to turn to but the government for handouts, and the problem with that is this cannot last. The government cannot just continue to keep the MOB happy by printing more paper money to send out in the mail. >>
Best post in this thread.
<< <i>. The government cannot just continue to keep the MOB happy by printing more paper money to send out in the mail. >>
Doesn't matter if they're happy or not as long as they're ignorant. There's a huge surplus of ignorance and that's not about to change.
Harrison Bergeron
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
The main reasons many people have it hard financially today are 1) too much debt caused by living way beyond their means and 2) a low income caused by lack of education and/or work ethic. Either of those can be changed if we're willing to work at it and make some hard decisions. Or we can watch TV and wait for the next Great Depression. I hate to SOUND like my grandparents, but maybe we've had it too easy for too long.
You're right, and as I said in an earlier post, that situation isn't sustainable. I think that long term our wages in the US will stagnate as wages in India increase.
While I'm sure you can find someone running up debt for plasma tv's, I know many more people runing up debt for basic necessities. Look at food and gas prices. The biggest private employer in the US is Wal-Mart. Try supporting a family working at Wal-Mart.
A lot of what people consider basic necessities today are really luxuries. No one is willing to admit that they may not be able to afford something they want. We have a country that's more than generous when it comes to helping the truly needy, and that's as it should be. But the "poor" in our country would be considered wealthy or at least middle class in much of the world. If the best someone can do is a Wal-Mart job because of their level of skills or education, then you're right it will be tough to support a family. They will have to make tough choices about where they live, family size, etc. They may have to take on a second job, like my Dad did when I was a kid.
<< <i>Wow, no offense intended to anyone but maybe the problem with the U.S. is too much pessimism! Does anyone really believe we have it harder than our grandparents did? Things are far from perfect now, but who would want to go back to a time before computers, the Internet, modern medical care, etc.?
The main reasons many people have it hard financially today are 1) too much debt caused by living way beyond their means and 2) a low income caused by lack of education and/or work ethic. Either of those can be changed if we're willing to work at it and make some hard decisions. Or we can watch TV and wait for the next Great Depression. I hate to SOUND like my grandparents, but maybe we've had it too easy for too long. >>
Too much ignorance is closer to reality. Most people are happy idiots in the US. The only ones who are being pessimistic are the ones who are aware of what reality is..
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
http://www.washtech.org/news/labor/display.php?ID_Content=5231
I have been a member of Wash Tech/CWA for a few years now, and have watched the Information Technology business wind down to a race to the bottom. I have been in Information Processing as a Main Frame Computer Programmer/Analyst and Technical Consultant for more than 40 years. Five year ago I was earning $145 K for the year, and within 6 months due to outsourcing and globalization my salary had fallen to $60 K. Over the next two years because of my Main Frame Assembler experience I was able to build it back up to $90 K. On February 1, 2008 my lone consulting account announced that due to budget constraints and outsourcing to a new division in India, that I and many other consultants would be terminated. That, after I was there 17 months and knew and understood their systems well. On February 29, 2008 I finished the assignment, and for the first time in my working life I was on Down Time. I have been to New York and New Jersey and was told that the few jobs there were not to be given to any Americans but were to be priced so low, so that no Americans would apply, and that then they could simply outsource all of the jobs to India with no problem from any existing laws or regulations. That information was given to me by the New Jersey State Employment Service in Morristown New Jersey. I am now in my 4th week of Down Time. I have no income whatsoever and no real prospects anyplace in the U.S. to work. I have been told by the few remaining consulting firms that have not gone out of business that maybe in the next 6-12 months there might be a couple of jobs available, but not before. Within the next two months I will lose my home which I have been paying on for the last 10 years. My parents whom live with me are in a panic as they are in their 90's and depend upon me for part of their financial support. Every company I speak to is telling me the same thing, that they will outsource all of their American jobs if at all possible, and they really do not care for how it will affect the American middle class. We are in the beginning of a Great Depression. All middle class jobs maybe outsourced in the next few years without exception. The housing and financial woes that we are experiencing are but the beginning of this depression. If most factory jobs are being sent to China and most technical jobs are sent to India, then we will have a depression unlike anything that has happened since the Great Crash of 1929. That Depresson was only ended by World War II. Will World War III be the answer to this Depression ? The government can only lie to the public for so long. People are beginning to realsize that Outsourcing and Globalization simply means that we fire Americans and send their jobs overseas. As America is destroyed, China and and India are doing wonderfully. If I were younger I would consider moving to India, in order to find a job. When this country in the next 4-5 years becomes a third world country, and our children ask the question what field or profession should I enter to have a descent future -- What will the answer be, do you think ? Will the lies of Big Brother suffice at that time, when there are no jobs of any consequence, and no money to pay the mortgage or rent, or car payment, as what I am facing now ? What do I do at age 65 with a mortgage and parents to support, with no income and no help. I turn on the radio and TV and hear the present government tell the people how wonderful the war is going and how wonderful the economy is doing. Well, I guess if you are a VP of a large American company getting bonuses for terminating your American technical and office staffs or you manufacture war equipment, that statement would be true. For the rest of the country watching us all go down hill, faster and faster. What do you say then ? What do you tell your children and grand children ?
Labor News
What will be the next industry to be outsourced?
Box of 20
<< <i>
<< <i>Too much ignorance is closer to reality. Most people are happy idiots in the US. The only ones who are being pessimistic are the ones who are aware of what reality is.. >>
Dadgummit, I've been trying to understand what reality is for a long time
<< <i>It's not lack of education. People go into engineering or computer science and engineers in India make 80% less. That means US engineers have to be 5 times better and that's not realistic.
You're right, and as I said in an earlier post, that situation isn't sustainable. I think that long term our wages in the US will stagnate as wages in India increase.
While I'm sure you can find someone running up debt for plasma tv's, I know many more people runing up debt for basic necessities. Look at food and gas prices. The biggest private employer in the US is Wal-Mart. Try supporting a family working at Wal-Mart.
A lot of what people consider basic necessities today are really luxuries. No one is willing to admit that they may not be able to afford something they want. We have a country that's more than generous when it comes to helping the truly needy, and that's as it should be. But the "poor" in our country would be considered wealthy or at least middle class in much of the world. If the best someone can do is a Wal-Mart job because of their level of skills or education, then you're right it will be tough to support a family. They will have to make tough choices about where they live, family size, etc. They may have to take on a second job, like my Dad did when I was a kid. >>
US wages in real terms are continuing to go down but it doesn't have to be that way. The US government should work for the benefit of people in the US instead of India and China. I know China and India's government are working for the benefit of their people and the US should do the same. When I say basic necessities I'm talking about food to eat and gas to get to work.
<< <i>f you hang around a while longer, you will really see some real doldrums as we enter 2009-2011. Most of the news around here is still comparatively "good."
Ha Ha Ha
RR
I love this, see we do still have a sense of humor!!!
Higashiyama
I am sorry my friend, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Are our lives really easier than our grandparents?-------------------------- Yes. My grandparents woke at the crack of dawn and came home at dark doing hard, physical labor. And they had to use an outhouse!!!!
Was it worth our progress to force all our women folk into the work place?----------------------------The only time women were "forced" to work was during WWII. And they were happy to do so as they were Americans. Women and men choose to work today to pay for frivilous expenses.
Is our travel around our own country as easy is it once was?--------------------- The interstate highway system didnt even exist. We have many more airline options available than ever before and we dont have to sit in smoke filled planes
Are we as a country more in debt to the rest of the world as the price we have paid for globalization? ---------------------- Probably, but if not it is our own damn fault
Are our children getting the education they should, considering the amount of money we are spending per child?------------------ My kids are. Schooling starts at home.
Is it better that we have no factories to produce anything of hard value, and no trades to pass onto our son’s?------------------------------- Look in your local phonebook. You will find hundreds of manufacturing companies. My father was a carpenter. I could have learned the trade, chose not to. Many of my friends are tradesmen. They have vocational schools that tech this stuff if you want to learn
Are we all better off now that we pay 50 to 60% of all the money we make each year to one government or another?------------------------Income taxes were much higher in the good ole days. Although I am quite pissed at my RE taxes
Are we better off as a “service economy” in which 33% of the working population has to work for one government or another because there are no other jobs for them? ----------------------This is the land of opportunity. If you dont like yoyur present job then create a new one. Millions do it every year. We all make the bed we sleep in
It is my belief that all of the real advancements in technology, communication etc. made in the last 2 decades we would have had anyway. Countries around the world that had very little to do with any of this innovation still enjoy the same tech advances we do. -----------------------------And what is wrong with that. Millions have benefitted because Hitler is dead and the Easter Bloc countries have been freed. I know you have travelled the world so you realize the common folk in other countries do not have the same quality of life or creature comforts.
We are having class warfare in this county because the middle class working folks are getting squeezed out of the work place with no one to turn to but the government for handouts, and the problem with that is this cannot last. The government cannot just continue to keep the MOB happy by printing more paper money to send out in the mail.-----------------------------Agreed!!! >>
Ok---I'll stir the pot here.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>
<< <i>f you hang around a while longer, you will really see some real doldrums as we enter 2009-2011. Most of the news around here is still comparatively "good."
Ha Ha Ha
RR
I love this, see we do still have a sense of humor!!!
Higashiyama
I am sorry my friend, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Are our lives really easier than our grandparents?-------------------------- Yes. My grandparents woke at the crack of dawn and came home at dark doing hard, physical labor. And they had to use an outhouse!!!!
Was it worth our progress to force all our women folk into the work place?----------------------------The only time women were "forced" to work was during WWII. And they were happy to do so as they were Americans. Women and men choose to work today to pay for frivilous expenses.
Is our travel around our own country as easy is it once was?--------------------- The interstate highway system didnt even exist. We have many more airline options available than ever before and we dont have to sit in smoke filled planes
Are we as a country more in debt to the rest of the world as the price we have paid for globalization? ---------------------- Probably, but if not it is our own damn fault
Are our children getting the education they should, considering the amount of money we are spending per child?------------------ My kids are. Schooling starts at home.
Is it better that we have no factories to produce anything of hard value, and no trades to pass onto our son’s?------------------------------- Look in your local phonebook. You will find hundreds of manufacturing companies. My father was a carpenter. I could have learned the trade, chose not to. Many of my friends are tradesmen. They have vocational schools that tech this stuff if you want to learn
Are we all better off now that we pay 50 to 60% of all the money we make each year to one government or another?------------------------Income taxes were much higher in the good ole days. Although I am quite pissed at my RE taxes
Are we better off as a “service economy” in which 33% of the working population has to work for one government or another because there are no other jobs for them? ----------------------This is the land of opportunity. If you dont like yoyur present job then create a new one. Millions do it every year. We all make the bed we sleep in
It is my belief that all of the real advancements in technology, communication etc. made in the last 2 decades we would have had anyway. Countries around the world that had very little to do with any of this innovation still enjoy the same tech advances we do. -----------------------------And what is wrong with that. Millions have benefitted because Hitler is dead and the Easter Bloc countries have been freed. I know you have travelled the world so you realize the common folk in other countries do not have the same quality of life or creature comforts.
We are having class warfare in this county because the middle class working folks are getting squeezed out of the work place with no one to turn to but the government for handouts, and the problem with that is this cannot last. The government cannot just continue to keep the MOB happy by printing more paper money to send out in the mail.-----------------------------Agreed!!! >>
Ok---I'll stir the pot here.
Hundreds of companies huh? Anecdotal evidence. Any real evidence to rebut his assertions? I guess we could all trade pieces of paper around but I think that's part of why we're in such a big mess. Our economy is based on trading pieces of paper around from tech stocks to securitized mortages. The "every man for himself" sounds great in theory but not in reality. From 1860 to 1915 the US had the most protectionist policies in the world and became the top economic power of the world. China is doing the same thing. Do you think China doesn't have tariffs? They have a ton of tariffs because that's what is best for their country. I agree that if the US people keep electiing "free trade" candidates, we'll deserve the misery that is starting. Grandma and Grandpa didn't need payday lenders to survive.
Don't forget to leave the guns at home!
I'd have no problem with this. In essence computers have taken away more of our free time. I don't see all that much difference in modern medical care than what was available in the 1960's or 1970's.
As far as my grandparents, they lived in nice middle class houses every bit (or nicer) than mine. As a plumber by trade my fraternal grandfather worked regular hours similar to today. On the side he was a dealer/player in antiques and oriental rugs. My maternal grandfather started his own chrome plating factory that survives to this day. I'd say that they had every bit as much free time as myself if not more. My dad also worked at that Chrome Plating business for 40+ years and his typical day was 8 hours. He was always home by 5. My mother did not need to work. I've put in 10-12 hour days since I started working full time in the late 1970's. The hours have only gotten long over time. I'd say that my standard of living is no higher than my father's or grandfather's, and probably less than both. I dont' consider driving a more reliable or fuel efficient car to be all that big a deal, nor current TV's I live quite frugually, and always have. I don't need the latest tech gadgets and other than a computer and a color TV I don't think I have anything that my grandad didn't have. Don't even own a dish washing machine (I think he did -lol). My grandfather did invest in oil and insurance stocks very early on. He made quite a bit of money putting something away over 50 years. No doubt he was probably buying cheap stocks in the 1930's. At least then you owned a share of something real and not paper debt manipulations. I still admire the slower paced and more family oriented lifestyle that my father and grandfathers had. They set asset time for play and had a nice balance. I don't see that as easy to achieve today. My dad made $25K per year back in the early 1970's and I thought that was a TON of money. And it was very comfortable. Grand dad lived to be 94 and played golf at the country club up until he was 88. My dad caught a bad break with an odd form of cancer that was misdiagnosed and he passed away at 78....he always seemed to be a shoo-in to make 90 like his dad. From my perspective, they had it all....even with CNN babes, plasma TV's, cell phones, 350 hp everyday cars, turbo-tax, OTC derivatives, and American Idol. This list I could do without.
The computer tech making $145K per year should have been putting a lot of that away while times were good. If now at 65 he can't make ends meet and does not own his own, whose fault is that?
Vote for Barrak Hussein Obama?
roadrunner
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Perhaps... but when Saudi Arabia dumped crude oil on the US market at $6/bbl, that did not improve efficiency and enhance our real wages.
<< <i>Some potent articles on that site:
I have been a member of Wash Tech/CWA for a few years now, and have watched the Information Technology business wind down to a race to the bottom. I have been in Information Processing as a Main Frame Computer Programmer/Analyst and Technical Consultant for more than 40 years. Five year ago I was earning $145 K for the year, and within 6 months due to outsourcing and globalization my salary had fallen to $60 K. Over the next two years because of my Main Frame Assembler experience I was able to build it back up to $90 K. On February 1, 2008 my lone consulting account announced that due to budget constraints and outsourcing to a new division in India, that I and many other consultants would be terminated. That, after I was there 17 months and knew and understood their systems well. On February 29, 2008 I finished the assignment, and for the first time in my working life I was on Down Time. I have been to New York and New Jersey and was told that the few jobs there were not to be given to any Americans but were to be priced so low, so that no Americans would apply, and that then they could simply outsource all of the jobs to India with no problem from any existing laws or regulations. That information was given to me by the New Jersey State Employment Service in Morristown New Jersey. I am now in my 4th week of Down Time. I have no income whatsoever and no real prospects anyplace in the U.S. to work. I have been told by the few remaining consulting firms that have not gone out of business that maybe in the next 6-12 months there might be a couple of jobs available, but not before. Within the next two months I will lose my home which I have been paying on for the last 10 years. My parents whom live with me are in a panic as they are in their 90's and depend upon me for part of their financial support. Every company I speak to is telling me the same thing, that they will outsource all of their American jobs if at all possible, and they really do not care for how it will affect the American middle class. We are in the beginning of a Great Depression. All middle class jobs maybe outsourced in the next few years without exception. The housing and financial woes that we are experiencing are but the beginning of this depression. If most factory jobs are being sent to China and most technical jobs are sent to India, then we will have a depression unlike anything that has happened since the Great Crash of 1929. That Depresson was only ended by World War II. Will World War III be the answer to this Depression ? The government can only lie to the public for so long. People are beginning to realsize that Outsourcing and Globalization simply means that we fire Americans and send their jobs overseas. As America is destroyed, China and and India are doing wonderfully. If I were younger I would consider moving to India, in order to find a job. When this country in the next 4-5 years becomes a third world country, and our children ask the question what field or profession should I enter to have a descent future -- What will the answer be, do you think ? Will the lies of Big Brother suffice at that time, when there are no jobs of any consequence, and no money to pay the mortgage or rent, or car payment, as what I am facing now ? What do I do at age 65 with a mortgage and parents to support, with no income and no help. I turn on the radio and TV and hear the present government tell the people how wonderful the war is going and how wonderful the economy is doing. Well, I guess if you are a VP of a large American company getting bonuses for terminating your American technical and office staffs or you manufacture war equipment, that statement would be true. For the rest of the country watching us all go down hill, faster and faster. What do you say then ? What do you tell your children and grand children ?
Labor News
What will be the next industry to be outsourced? >>
lol. this is the equivalent of the buggy whip makers complaining about
the automobile. main frame admins, programmers, and etc are a
truly niche area. if this person was truly competent as he likes to
claim he is there is a 1000 jobs right now over a few states in my
area looking for IT help starting at 40K and up.
Times change and the smart continually evolve their skills to stay
employed. Heck, Fairpoint Communications just bought a big chunk
of Verizon here in New England. 100s of positions to fill that revolve
around every part of IT, big and small.
I have people emailing me out of no where asking if i would like to
work for them. IT is still booming. Can you say VOIP?
Medical care not different from the 60s and 70s? How many examples could I give you to change your mind on this one?
I'm sure you could give me thousands or tens of thousands of positive examples. I tend to think there are a hundred million other reasons walking around out there right now around the USA who don't need to partake to any great extent in the medical care system to live and long and productive life. My advice: quit eating at McD's and Dunkin, eat the right foods and get your vitamins, minerials, and antioxidants naturally (dark berry juices, red wine, coffee in moderation, green teas, fruits and veggies). Cut down stress. Slow down. Sleep more (7-8 hrs). Exercise daily. You'd be surprised how much this would knock down most heart disease, cancer, and diabetes which is mainly what our medical care is trying to "fight." The cure is not fighting it, but preventing it. My grand dad ate 2 eggs for breakfast every morning, loved butter, ate sausage and plenty of red meats, drank whole milk, smoked a pipe or cigar several times a day....and he avoided it all.
roadrunner
<< <i>I'm bitter and am voting for Barack.
Don't forget to leave the guns at home! >>
Don't worry, Hillary has experience dodging bullets.
roadrunner
<< <i>Hillary always keeps a loaded .45 cal pistol and sawed off shotgun in her pant suits. Be prepared as they say.
roadrunner >>
That's not a pistol in her pants. Why do you think she never wears a skirt?
<< <i>Any ideas why gold and silver are dropping today? >>
Citigroup is sparking the rally. (better earnings than forecast)
Gains by the $ against the Euro & drop in the price of oil.
<< <i>Any ideas why gold and silver are dropping today? >>
Probably some conspiracy to drive the little guy out and protect the big mining companies and hedgies profits.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>
<< <i>Some potent articles on that site:
I have been a member of Wash Tech/CWA for a few years now, and have watched the Information Technology business wind down to a race to the bottom. I have been in Information Processing as a Main Frame Computer Programmer/Analyst and Technical Consultant for more than 40 years. Five year ago I was earning $145 K for the year, and within 6 months due to outsourcing and globalization my salary had fallen to $60 K. Over the next two years because of my Main Frame Assembler experience I was able to build it back up to $90 K. On February 1, 2008 my lone consulting account announced that due to budget constraints and outsourcing to a new division in India, that I and many other consultants would be terminated. That, after I was there 17 months and knew and understood their systems well. On February 29, 2008 I finished the assignment, and for the first time in my working life I was on Down Time. I have been to New York and New Jersey and was told that the few jobs there were not to be given to any Americans but were to be priced so low, so that no Americans would apply, and that then they could simply outsource all of the jobs to India with no problem from any existing laws or regulations. That information was given to me by the New Jersey State Employment Service in Morristown New Jersey. I am now in my 4th week of Down Time. I have no income whatsoever and no real prospects anyplace in the U.S. to work. I have been told by the few remaining consulting firms that have not gone out of business that maybe in the next 6-12 months there might be a couple of jobs available, but not before. Within the next two months I will lose my home which I have been paying on for the last 10 years. My parents whom live with me are in a panic as they are in their 90's and depend upon me for part of their financial support. Every company I speak to is telling me the same thing, that they will outsource all of their American jobs if at all possible, and they really do not care for how it will affect the American middle class. We are in the beginning of a Great Depression. All middle class jobs maybe outsourced in the next few years without exception. The housing and financial woes that we are experiencing are but the beginning of this depression. If most factory jobs are being sent to China and most technical jobs are sent to India, then we will have a depression unlike anything that has happened since the Great Crash of 1929. That Depresson was only ended by World War II. Will World War III be the answer to this Depression ? The government can only lie to the public for so long. People are beginning to realsize that Outsourcing and Globalization simply means that we fire Americans and send their jobs overseas. As America is destroyed, China and and India are doing wonderfully. If I were younger I would consider moving to India, in order to find a job. When this country in the next 4-5 years becomes a third world country, and our children ask the question what field or profession should I enter to have a descent future -- What will the answer be, do you think ? Will the lies of Big Brother suffice at that time, when there are no jobs of any consequence, and no money to pay the mortgage or rent, or car payment, as what I am facing now ? What do I do at age 65 with a mortgage and parents to support, with no income and no help. I turn on the radio and TV and hear the present government tell the people how wonderful the war is going and how wonderful the economy is doing. Well, I guess if you are a VP of a large American company getting bonuses for terminating your American technical and office staffs or you manufacture war equipment, that statement would be true. For the rest of the country watching us all go down hill, faster and faster. What do you say then ? What do you tell your children and grand children ?
Labor News
What will be the next industry to be outsourced? >>
lol. this is the equivalent of the buggy whip makers complaining about
the automobile. main frame admins, programmers, and etc are a
truly niche area. if this person was truly competent as he likes to
claim he is there is a 1000 jobs right now over a few states in my
area looking for IT help starting at 40K and up.
Times change and the smart continually evolve their skills to stay
employed. Heck, Fairpoint Communications just bought a big chunk
of Verizon here in New England. 100s of positions to fill that revolve
around every part of IT, big and small.
I have people emailing me out of no where asking if i would like to
work for them. IT is still booming. Can you say VOIP? >>
Great analysis, fc. While it is easy to get emotionally involved with such
stories, and they ARE heartbreaking, the remedies are available to everyone.
Problem is that it takes effort - but you cannot live like an ostrich with your head
buried down in the dirt. Blaming "change" or shifting markets for personal disaster is like
pissing in the wind.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
<< <i>Any ideas why gold and silver are dropping today? >>
Citigroup is sparking the rally. (better earnings than forecast)
>>
Better earnings?
Citigroup reports $5.1 billion loss, will cut 9,000 jobs
NEW YORK - Citigroup Inc. lost $5.1 billion during the first quarter and will eliminate about 9,000 more jobs, as poor bets on mortgages and leveraged loans lopped billions of dollars from its investment portfolio.
Write-downs related to mortgages and turmoil in the credit markets reached more than $12 billion, and costs stemming from consumers' credit problems surpassed $3 billion, the bank said Friday. And in a conference call with analysts, Citigroup chief financial officer Gary Crittenden said the bank, seeking to cut costs, is eliminating about 9,000 additional jobs.
Citigroup reports $5.1 billion loss, will cut 9,000 jobs
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>On medical care: I'm not talking about treating people with more prescription meds and chemotherapy. Have we really changed life expectancies of the average person who reaches adulthood and eats sensibly, exercises and avoids tobacco, alchohol, processed chemicalized foods, and uneeded meds? I don't think we are that much further along for the care given to the average person. True, we may extend the lives of cancer patients a couple of years, and those years typically being full of pain and false hope. For every survivor there are how many non-survivors? The risk of dying in the hospital from infections is now greater than ever as I read it. There is more information today on how to live healthier from the simple foods we are given. Could it be that people following a decent diet is part of today's longevity increases? Giving the medical care system credit for all life expectancy increases is like giving the FED all the credit for a booming economy (lol)
I'm sure you could give me thousands or tens of thousands of positive examples. I tend to think there are a hundred million other reasons walking around out there right now around the USA who don't need to partake to any great extent in the medical care system to live and long and productive life. My advice: quit eating at McD's and Dunkin, eat the right foods and get your vitamins, minerials, and antioxidants naturally (dark berry juices, red wine, coffee in moderation, green teas, fruits and veggies). Cut down stress. Slow down. Sleep more (7-8 hrs). Exercise daily. You'd be surprised how much this would knock down most heart disease, cancer, and diabetes which is mainly what our medical care is trying to "fight." The cure is not fighting it, but preventing it. My grand dad ate 2 eggs for breakfast every morning, loved butter, ate sausage and plenty of red meats, drank whole milk, smoked a pipe or cigar several times a day....and he avoided it all.
roadrunner >>
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I agree, that's all great advice. And 90% of Americans don't follow it, yet life expectancy continues to increase. We all know people who are alive because of earlier and better diagnoses and drugs that keep them healthy. To suggest that medical care is the same today as 40 years ago is just absurd. Why don't we just go back to a time when a simple infection could kill you, because antibiotics had not been developed yet. Yet many people today bash "Big Pharma". I just don't understand it.
If you choose to, you can find fault in anything. Like the 65 year old IT guy that still has a mortgage in spite of a six-figure income. And he apparently has no savings, since he's losing his house after just 4 weeks of unemployment. And he blames the government. Sure, it's a sad story, but shouldn't he maybe look in the mirror?
<< <i>Any ideas why gold and silver are dropping today? >>
to rephrase...why is the market so happY?
...the market needs positive news (of any kind..even fictional..ie Citigroup) right now
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Any ideas why gold and silver are dropping today? >>
Citigroup is sparking the rally. (better earnings than forecast)
>>
Better earnings?
Citigroup reports $5.1 billion loss, will cut 9,000 jobs
NEW YORK - Citigroup Inc. lost $5.1 billion during the first quarter and will eliminate about 9,000 more jobs, as poor bets on mortgages and leveraged loans lopped billions of dollars from its investment portfolio.
Write-downs related to mortgages and turmoil in the credit markets reached more than $12 billion, and costs stemming from consumers' credit problems surpassed $3 billion, the bank said Friday. And in a conference call with analysts, Citigroup chief financial officer Gary Crittenden said the bank, seeking to cut costs, is eliminating about 9,000 additional jobs.
Citigroup reports $5.1 billion loss, will cut 9,000 jobs >>
Link
Stocks surge as investors overlook the banking giant's worse-than-expected results, hoping the end of the mortgage and credit mess is in sight. Honeywell and Caterpillar report strong results. Google reports a jump in profit and revenue.
Citi stock rose $1.80, or 7.5%, to $25.83 in midday trading.
Although Citigroup has lost money for two consecutive quarters, investors took today's news as more evidence that the financial crisis was nearing an end.
Citigroup's loss this quarter, while ugly, was not nearly as bad as the $9.83 billion loss the bank reported in the fourth quarter of 2007 -- its worst ever.
Buckhorn Mine
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
<< <i>
<< <i>Any ideas why gold and silver are dropping today? >>
>>
It's still the same forces that have been at play for the last three or four years; the
unwinding of the huge debt versus the greatly increased efficiency and wealth cre-
ated by global trade, the computer, and demand from developing nations.
As I've said several times the danger of being out of the stock market entirely has out-
weighed the danger of being in it for a couple years now. Indeed, within a relatively
short time it might be a good idea to move into some nmore speculative stocks. As
always avoid the buggy whip manufacturers and services no matter how beaten down
they may seem. Let someone else get rich when they recover.
in the dollar. If the economy takes off there will be some relaxation in
the silver price and then it can explode higher.
Gold should continue to do well until the deficits are in check.
roadrunner
<< <i>Hillary always keeps a loaded .45 cal pistol and sawed off shotgun in her pant suits. Be prepared as they say.
roadrunner >>
(perceived) size does matter
she needs to be all things to all people, much like Bubba
“Better earnings?
Citigroup reports $5.1 billion loss, will cut 9,000 jobs
to rephrase...why is the market so happY?
...the market needs positive news (of any kind..even fictional..ie Citigroup) right now”
CORRECTAMUNO
“I should add that today's move is primarily the result of the strenght
in the dollar.”
When gold hit $1,050 what was the Euro? Today it is $158.22!
Citi’s PE is currently 35.9 and it is losing billions with each new quarter, yet the stock was up today 4.49%
Now does this sound like the sharks are looking for suckers to buy their holdings or what?
This entire rally the last week or so is based on nothing but bad news and billions in loses. When it makes no sense it is best to stay very far away!
Gee even Google was up 20% today, exactly why do you think this was? The entire casino is rigged more than ever before. If you want to play the market pick up some cheap stocks with LOW PE’s and add to the positions on dips.
Nothing has change to make the dollar stronger! In fact lots has changed to make the dollar weaker.
OIL hit $117 today and gas is going to $4.00 in the next few weeks, that alone should be driving the market south, to say nothing of the day to day BAD news.
<< <i>The strength of Citigroup not being insolvent today drove the market upwards. A $5 BILL loss is nothing when the FED offers free liquidity drinks at the trough of last resort.
roadrunner >>
I wonder what GE paid for CitiCapital (undisclosed amount of cash for $13.4 billion of assets??
I wonder how this affected Citigroup's balance sheet??
On Thursday 4/17, General Electric announced that it had agreed to purchase most of CitiCapital, Citigroup North American commercial lending and leasing business, for an undisclosed amount of cash. It will add $13.4 billion of assets to GE Capital's $335.0 billion.
SoundPoint
that we are looking at a financial Potemkin village.
Sky high fuel and food,dropping home values,increasing
mortgage rates, dropping dollar, increasing unemployment,
real wages dropping, foreclosures increasing, home building
crushed and the market goes up. Am I failing to see something?
Camelot
Germany is in shock as subprime gets worse
Liars, Wall Street & Your Gold
<< <i>I hope I am wrong, but I can't shake the feeling
that we are looking at a financial Potemkin village.
Sky high fuel and food,dropping home values,increasing
mortgage rates, dropping dollar, increasing unemployment,
real wages dropping, foreclosures increasing, home building
crushed and the market goes up. Am I failing to see something? >>
You mean, we really aren't so rich afterall?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I hope I am wrong, but I can't shake the feeling
that we are looking at a financial Potemkin village.
Sky high fuel and food,dropping home values,increasing
mortgage rates, dropping dollar, increasing unemployment,
real wages dropping, foreclosures increasing, home building
crushed and the market goes up. Am I failing to see something? >>
Imagine living in a world where BAD is GOOD and GOOD is GOOD.
Why Worry? Everything is GOOD!
Your living in the NEW UTOPIA!!
Let's Celebrate!
The class distinction is getting more definition of late. There is a part of the population that can easily cope with this adjustment in prices, like $4 gas and $5 milk, in fact, it appears there are plenty of well heeled players out and about in the economic arena. But there is a signifigant part of the population that has been harmed and is reeling from these increases. The credit card companies that are getting hammered did so on the backs of the very consumers that can't pay their bills, they did indeed consume too many of their prey and now there are not enough paying consumers (mortgages, credit cards, car payments...) for them to prosper. The consumers have actually become the consumees.
There is a story called The Tragedy of the Commons that talks about an early English custom of having a common area for grazing the town's sheep. At first, the common pasture worked good, there was plenty of land and not too many sheep. As things became more successful and prosperous, the pastures became overgrazed and then were useless. It reminds me of everybody piling up on the consumer until the consumer fails.
Certainly not a time to discount those with the wherewithall, there are plenty of them and they are active. CNN interviewed George Soros today about what to do with the money. TIP's: "You pay for the protection, it may not be the worst alternative. On gold: IMF is going to sell 11B worth of gold which is temporarily depressing. Not a safe investment; maybe a good investment but not a safe one." Good but not safe? It will be interesting to see how all of this finally shakes out.
Where's that popcorn icon?