The FEDS and other local and state agencies are just to jammed with cases to bother with anything short of major fraud. I went through this a few years back with a classic car that had the odometer rolled back. I had formal proof of faked documents that were indisputable. It didn't matter. Every agency told me to take it to civil court as I had no real case for them. It is not a federal crime to create fraud is the word I got. It is specifically not a federal crime to rollback a car older than 10 years old (you car thieves listening?). The Fed's reasoning is that the mileage should not be believed on anything >10 yrs old. And this transaction was done over state lines and via the mail too. The attorney generals of Connecticut and Missouri both told me they had no interest as did every police jurisdiction I contacted.
While I admire your bravado MBT, you are facing a battle that likely won't get you anywhere and will cost you more money in the end. The seller will likely fare much better than yourself. Good luck...I guess it helps to be a lawyer.
<< <i>The FEDS and other local and state agencies are just to jammed with cases to bother with anything short of major fraud. >>
Surprisingly, they may take interest in internet fraud cases.
I also had a good result awhile ago, when a seller inordinately delayed is shipping a pinball machine purchased on Ebay. I phoned the local polce where the seller resided (Wheeling, West Virginia), and they paid him a visit. The machine was shipped shortly thereafter.
I believe is is imperitative to assert your rights when you've been wronged!
<< <i>I believe is is imperitative to assert your rights when you've been wronged! >>
So do I. But I haven't seen you present a compelling case that you were wronged.
Does the serial number on the note you received match that in the picture? If so, you were a "victim"...of your own bad judgment. Low-feedback seller, sold as-is, clear evidence of creases on the picture, apparently not knowing that "crisp" does not necessarily mean uncirculated...
You victimized yourself far more than the seller victimized you.
This just in from ANACS: Cleaned, AU details, net EF45.
BTW, my hats off to the folks at ANACS. I sent it in for five day service, and only afterward was informed by PayPal that they'd need all doc's within ten calendar days. The ANACS folks were very helpful about intercepting my package & doing an upgrade in midstream. I hadn't dared to expect as much. So -- we all know how their grading stacks up in various issues, but if you need just basic authentication kind of stuff I'd recommend them highly.
Well, that sure explains his rigged return policy and his story about switching the coin. With that, you should have no trouble with PayPal and their policy of items grossly misrepresented.
Of course, the last we knew he'd changed the story from "it's a different coin" since that one doesn't stick, to "the buyer damaged it, it was great when I sent it." We'll see how PayPal interprets it all. Along the way, I sent email notice that I'd sent the coin for grading (as stipulated I should do in the ANA bylaws) and got in return yet another truly abrasive email including, of all things, a lecture about ethical behavior. At this point, if PayPal refunds, great. If they charge him for it, even better. If they don't, and the whole thing ends up in small claims in the county in which the transaction took place -- which is wherever PayPal's server is located, I guess, likely neither East Hardwick, VT nor Belpre, OH -- I might just be delighted with that, too. The statute of limitations is three years. He wants this one to go away, but it won't just yet. BTW, he's got a new neg from someone else who seems to have gotten a similar run-around.
I've really mulled this case over quite a lot. Obviously I made all sorts of mistakes I won't make again, and obviously 99% of the folks who've participated in this thread wouldn't have bid in the first place, so this is pretty moot as a "heads up" to the community. Further, the amount of money is small, in the big scheme, yet that isn't the point. If somebody mugs me and I only have five bucks in my pocket, or breaks into my house but only steals my toothbrush, I've still been violated and I will still want justice. The tone this fellow takes as though he's walking the high road, the attempt to distract with a cloud of all-too- practiced accusations, irks me thoroughly.
<< <i>And, as is generally the case with lowlife eBay sellers, he immediately retaliated. >>
Told a bunch of Lies and then filed a false claim and Lost it. Cancel His Bids Seller poe58 (282) Reply by masterviewer99: He Sneakily swapped in a Damaged coin. DONT BUY FROM THIS SELLER, VERY RISKY !! Follow-up by poe58: Artie You Lost The Claim Because your the Liar! I don't sneak! You Do!
Sure is funny how every buyer who has a problem with Poe58 is a liar and a scam artists who swaps coins. This guy is a piece of work.
I have yet to see an abrasive email to you from the seller.
Any word on the aledged virus attack that 2 members falsly accused him of???
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
Look, Catfish. I think you're basically sincere so I'll try to get you to see it from where I sit. Remember the quarter in the pictures, the one you finally admitted is the same coin as in the seller's scans? Well, let's suppose you try in the first place to get that coin insured, but the guy won't do it because he already bought the stamp for the package. Let's suppose you get that coin in the mail after paying what I paid for it. Now, try to make the situation right with the seller. Go back and read the emails in the very first post on this thread. Wouldn't some of them rub you the wrong way? Rub wrong = abrade. Abrasive. See?
Now, as for the virus thing. I don't know who the other person is who accused him, but let me recap the info at hand. We have the expanded headers. You got sent the two encapsulated virii (Beagle and the other one). That's all the info I've got. Now, you postulated that maybe somebody else sent them, and they got into my Outlook and took Poe's address to show as a return path. Could be. But again, consider things from where I sit. There was, as far as I know, exactly one person on earth really annoyed with me that evening. I exchange email with lots of people, so Poe's email addy was neither the only nor the most recent one sitting there in my inbox. The principle called "Occam's Razor" dictates that the simplest explanation of a given phenomenon is usually the correct one. So, I think you can see how I drew the conclusion I did. Anyway, I'm curious how you are so certain that this explanation is "false?" What do you know that we don't? In any event, I know no more about it than the last time we exchanged remarks on the matter.
I looked into what you bought from Poe. It looks like you got a nice bust half at a fair price. Anything else you bought from him was not recent enough to see the auction listing. I can see you feel you've gotten fair deals from this fellow and he's treated you well. But that's all you really know about this situation.
Anyway, I'm curious how you are so certain that this explanation is "false?"
The headers you supplied did not trace back to his IP or computer. I knows his IP. I am trying to help him set up a way to host better images than the space eBay allows.
I accept it is your opinion that you were "abraded", but, they don't look that way in your presentation at all to me. Yours do though, harsh and threatening to boot. Old hash, they also contained blatant eBay policy violations in them. They certainly did not contain the tone I would have used in an attempt to reach an understanding or reasonable outcome. The whole thing accelerated too fast.
RYK if you're out there, You may post the contents of my PM if you wish.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
They certainly did not contain the tone I would have used in an attempt to reach an understanding or reasonable outcome.
"Reach an understanding"? Spare us this nonsense.
There's only one thing to understand: poe58 is a fraud and you defended it, going so far as to initially claim the same coin was different despite overwhelming photographic and other circumstantial evidence to the contrary.
As far as this issue is concerned, your credibility is destroyed.
As far as this issue is concerned, your credibility is destroyed.
Opinion noted, and discarded.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
Why waste the time on an auction he has several [i}Buy it Now!!! listings. If they are to your liking, go for it.... but then again it may just prove this as a one time mistake.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
"A one time mistake?" It almost sounds like you are allowing room for the possibility that things are as I've explained them from the beginning!
Let's look at how things "accelerated too fast" in our email exchange:
From me:
Joe -- the coin arrived today; unfortunately it is not as advertised a mint state coin at all. It has been harshly cleaned, and both the obverse and reverse bear the heavy hairlining to show it. I can see how at naked eye level the coin looks, as it does in the pictures with your listing, like a mint state coin with dulled luster. However, under a loupe it is very clear what has happened to it, and further it appears that there is wear on the high points of the design to boot. I'll be sending it back in expectation of a full refund of purchase price. I do not expect a refund of the shipping & handling charge. The coin has a rim bump beneath the 'D' in 'DOL' on the reverse that should be sufficient to identify it as the same coin you listed & sent, as will the distinctive pattern of toning on the obverse. Further, I opened the package in the presence of a witness who will be willing to notarize a statement corroborating that this cleaned coin was the one you sent. Not trying to pull anything on you here, just sending back a coin I find to be not as advertised.
The coin will go in tomorrow morning's mail. I will leave positive feedback when this situation is satisfactorily resolved. Thanks in advance --
From Joe:
Hello Matt
When you received the notice of shipment and then sent me an email attempting to change the terms after you already knew I had shipped the item, I knew I would be hearing from you. In a word the sale was uninsured. The coin was described accurately. There was no rim nick; the coin had not been cleaned… etc…. The scan is still posted on eBay for your inspection. I consider the sale to be final.
Thanks again!
Joe
You have already acknowledged the photos in light of which this email is clearly dishonest. In my shoes, what "understanding" would you have tried to come to from here? Some while back you said we should "kiss and make up." What, exactly, would that look like to you? All there is to understand is that Joe advertised one thing & sent me another, and has tried all sorts of subterfuge to wiggle out of responsibility for it. You'll note, too, in his auction listings a line about "return in the original holder." I wonder, if I'd escaped his insurance snare, would I have been blocked a refund on the grounds that I'd "removed" the coin from its sealed opaque envelope? Idle conjecture, I guess.
In any case, my opinion, which you may note and discard if you like, is that while you mean well, you've made a fool of yourself for this guy because you trusted him. Along the way, you've leveled a few nasty accusations at me with no evidence but his word. I've got a thick skin, and I suppose you thought you were doing this in defense of the hobby -- and heaven knows it needs that -- but you were on the wrong side here. You got taken for a ride, just like me.
So, as things stand now: per his most recent email to me, Joe says there "will be no refund, period." I think there will be. As before, I will post again when something else of substance occurs.
Grievance of an auction buyer against a seller needs to be taken to local police. If the transaction involves US mail, which it almost always does, go to postal authorities with your grievance first then go to local police. The important thing is be able to provide police and postal authorities with hard documents related to the transaction in dispute.
ANA and ebay policies do not have force of law working for them. To take real action is to use the proper channels to achieve the desired remedy.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
n any case, my opinion, which you may note and discard if you like, is that while you mean well, you've made a fool of yourself for this guy because you trusted him. Along the way, you've leveled a few nasty accusations at me with no evidence but his word. I've got a thick skin, and I suppose you thought you were doing this in defense of the hobby -- and heaven knows it needs that -- but you were on the wrong side here. You got taken for a ride, just like me.
I haven't discarded your opinions, I have tried to allow for them and even sympathize with some. I discard opinions of trolls. While you feel, you have been wronged. I have never been wronged by him in my transactions with him through eBay 8+ to your one. To me <and they still do> the 1200 dpi scans looked way different to the point of representing a different coin from the eBay scans and were the basis of my thinking. The newer scans you posted were closer. Speaking of scans can we see the slab or certificate? How does one get a certification back in less than a week with the speed of mail and priority mail being what they are? The virus accusations from you and the echo of it were over the top without having proof. A point I didn't address was the postmark, unclejoe nailed that.
My perspective, re:results concerning this transaction so far. I feel the damage done to poe58 on eBay wasn't nearly what I thought it would be. It would appear members of this forum weren't a major part of his customer base to begin with. That being said, someone who wasn't buying in the first place couldn't hurt him by not buying.
I feel you will be out of pocket more than the value of the whole "principle" of your feelings of being wronged represents. That is just me putting myself in your shoes as best I can.
On another note I have scanned my most humble collection and will be posting links later. I don't have a whole lot because everytime my son visits I give most of what I have to him. I think he appreciates it more that way rather than waiting until I'm dead.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>Obviously I made all sorts of mistakes I won't make again, and obviously 99% of the folks who've participated in this thread wouldn't have bid in the first place, so this is pretty moot as a "heads up" to the community >>
I sure many other people learned a lot from this thread.. Thanks..
The facts speak for themselves. The guy sells cleaned coins and overgrades them too. What more can one say. He's a scam artist. How can one possibly look at the absurdly overgraded crap in these auctions and say he's above-board? It's ridiculous. Seems like we have a potential candidate to be an economist on Greenspan's team!
I know I said I'd stay away until something else happened, but your post seems to warrant a response. First -- I'm looking forward to your pics, we do after all come here because we collect coins, and I think your philosophy abt gifting the collection while living is a warm one.
I agree with your analysis that these guys aren't poe's customer base. You and I might be the only guys here who would have taken the bait in the first place.
About the ANACS thing -- I did 2-day service and got fax notification. Coin mailed Saturday, arrived in Ohio Tuesday, graded today & results faxed to me, coin in mail today & probably back in hand Monday, maybe Saturday if they're unusually quick. PayPal wants their info by Tuesday, so if the mail works right, no problem. I will most happily post a pic of the coin in the slab once I've got it.
I am reading this:
<< <i>I feel you will be out of pocket more than the value of the whole "principle" of your feelings of being wronged represents. That is just me putting myself in your shoes as best I can. >>
and I'm not sure what you are saying. I'm going out on a limb here and guessing it's a compassionate way of saying you see my point but don't feel it's worth the bother? If that's it, all I can say is -- mneh... to each his own.
He's just one of many sellers on eBay selling junk, BB material. What makes him special is in order to get higher bids for his junk, he offers a "7 day no questions asked" return policy that he has rigged in two ways to refuse returns based on technicalities he has created. Very slick, but still a scammer in my opinion.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
As a responsible seller, it is his responsibility to know what he is selling. He's offering a coin that has PVC without mentioning it. He is either incompetent, or is misleading.
<< <i>He's just one of many sellers on eBay selling junk, BB material. What makes him special is in order to get higher bids for his junk, he offers a "7 day no questions asked" return policy that he has rigged in two ways to refuse returns based on technicalities he has created. Very slick, but still a scammer in my opinion. >>
Your opinion is noted. However, has anyone approached him in a gentlemanly manner asking him to consider other options as a better or improved return policy? <other than me that is> I'm sure he would be more apt to listen if approached that way. I have tried but he, like mirabela, is a man of strong principle. My efforts which came after this thread started are responded "That would just be me kissing their <well you know> and I'm not gonna do that." I know I can't do it alone. If readers here feel that he is discrediting the hobby, they should approach him that way. The old "flies with honey" thing. Jumping in on a "bandwagon" that is negative only puts one more on the defensive and puts one who "has his princples" more into the stubborn side.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>As a responsible seller, it is his responsibility to know what he is selling. He's offering a coin that has PVC without mentioning it. He is either incompetent, or is misleading. >>
Okay, next time your printer runs out of paper, keep trying to print to it and just complain. Don't do anything about it just complain and complain. The printer will still be out of paper though.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>I feel you will be out of pocket more than the value of the whole "principle" of your feelings of being wronged represents. That is just me putting myself in your shoes as best I can. >>
and I'm not sure what you are saying. I'm going out on a limb here and guessing it's a compassionate way of saying you see my point but don't feel it's worth the bother? If that's it, all I can say is -- mneh... to each his own. >>
Strictly monetarily speaking, No, I don't think it is worth it. In the same sense, I don't think it was worth it not to refund you either.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
The bottom line is if you're selling raw coins on eBay, it is your responsibility to know what you're selling, and to accurately and fully describe what you're selling. He isn't doing this. Sooner or later it will catch up to him.
I find your die hard defense of this guy very interesting.
The bottom line is if you're selling raw coins on eBay, it is your responsibility to know what you're selling, and to accurately and fully describe what you're selling. He isn't doing this. Sooner or later it will catch up to him.
I find your die hard defense of this guy very interesting. >>
Apparently, someone either read your post or saw a problem and had a better attitude than you and informed him he needed to reevaluate the coin. Check the link now.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
I don't see any changes. And again, it is not mine or anyone else's responsibility to point out what he, as a seller, should catch before offering it for sale.
Give me a break! Poedunk knows exactly what he is selling. His overgrading is precisely consistent. That's the beauty of it. He knows what he's doing. Call up that "Barber Link" above and you'll have a look at 4 of his silver auction coins all at once...everyone is cleaned and misgraded. His "MS63" barber quarter is loaded with wear on the highpts and is missing much of the field luster. It is not worth "near MS63 money." It's a cleaned AU55 worth AU-50 money at best.
Since when does approaching a flim flam man do any good. Poe will laugh at you behind his back. He says that his 300-400% scans are perfect and allow you to see every flaw. Get real! The copper scans are so dark you can hardly tell what the coin is. The 59-0 seated dollar might as well have been cooked on the barbie the scan is so dark. Are you for real Poe!
I'm not surprised at the ANACS net XF grade. That's about what I figured at $75 tops. And that was an overstatement on my part! I would imagine the next step is that Poe will claim that ANACS is in cahoots with the forum. Do you think Poe might be Alan Hager?
I'm surprised no one has bid on his Full Head 1927 SLQ with half the head gone due to a right hemispherical lobotomy. But $225 starting bid is a touch steep for a $35-$75 coin.
The bottom line is if you're selling raw coins on eBay, it is your responsibility to know what you're selling, and to accurately and fully describe what you're selling. He isn't doing this.
While your statement is indeed true. Wouldn't also be the responsibility of a fellow ANA or PGCS member to point out things in an auction that may have been missed? I would consider it to be the ethical thing to do if for no other reason than to protect your own interests in the hobby or er obsession? Of course, some are doers and others are just complainers.
I find your die hard defense of this guy very interesting.
I have the same thoughts about you in other threads as well. ;*}
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
Look, this guy isn't missing anything. As a matter of fact, he is quite deliberate when you look at his rigged return policy. Give it a break, most of us here see these types of sellers for what they are.
<< <i>Look, this guy isn't missing anything. As a matter of fact, he is quite deliberate when you look at his rigged return policy. Give it a break, most of us here see these types of sellers for what they are. >>
And do NOTHING but complain. Rather than help fix things, you just complain, complain, complain. You really want to know what I think? <probably not but here goes anyway> I personnally think poe is a rookie collector who got lucky to make it to a power seller on eBay. People have probably seen problems with his auctions from the start and have never lifted a finger to help guide him into the "right" methods of selling raw coins on ebay. It's all a part of that he's he and I'm me attitude. If you know something is wrong, and you don't try and help correct it, well your negligent and the printer will still be out of paper. It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in there own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things. They'd rather assume that one guy is like everyone else. Well, why not try and help that one "everyone else" to be the correct "everyone else" we'd like to see so this will become a better place for "everyone else " to be?
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
Look, you are looking at this in the light that this seller doesn't know what he is doing. I strongly disagree, he knows exactly what he is doing, which is why he has his "return policy" rigged to the point of refusing any returns.
<< <i>Look, you are looking at this in the light that this seller doesn't know what he is doing. I strongly disagree, he knows exactly what he is doing, which is why he has his "return policy" rigged to the point of refusing any returns. >>
Tell me EXACTLY how the return policy is alledgedly rigged.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
You do make some good points. However, Poe's ignorance, lack of skill in photography or grading, and poorly (and curiously) devised return policy do not absolve him of the sin of selling some (not all) crummy and overgraded coins on ebay and not accepting them back despite ostensibly having a return policy. Frankly, if he were selling crummy and overgraded coins and had no return policy, he would be one of thousands. If he had only accepted the return, as he morally and ethically should have done, we would not be here a week later still discussing the issue.
You are a good and loyal customer (and friend) of Poe's, and I certainly respect that. I just cannot affirm that Poe is an upstanding seller in this case. Period.
<< <i>He says he's got 25 years of ANA membership, doesn't he? >>
Original: Yes, but how many organizations do people carry cards for years and only recently become active? Check his member since on eBay. <another clue when searching for sellers> Correction: No he does not say 25 Years of ANA membership. He say 25 years of collecting.
I personally have 14 years experience in HVACR and still learn something new almost daily. I received my first computer Christmas of 1986 and I'm still learning stuff on that one. The day I quit learning, my loved ones will be waiting for me under a tent.
Edited because i noticed a mistake.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>Tell me EXACTLY how the return policy is alledgedly rigged. >>
That has already been discussed in this thread several times. Read the thread again from the start if you don't understand. >>
Okay, even though you seem condecending..... Okay, here go the bullets....
The insurance says "not offered" Not a valid reason to call it rigged.... 1) There is a "request total from the seller" button at auction end You can request final shipping costs with insurance in the resulting message box after clicking on it. 2) You have the opportunity to edit the final shipping costs on each and every auction you pay for on eBay. If you want insurance you simply add it to the shipping costs. 3) When paying with Paypal paypal also allows manual editing of the final shipping amount AND provides a message block for requesting insurance. BAM!!! There are 3 opportunities to request and 2 opportunities to pay for insurance on an auction!
Any others?
had to fix the slashes.....
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
Comments
The Fed's reasoning is that the mileage should not be believed on anything >10 yrs old. And this transaction was done over state lines and via the mail too. The attorney generals of Connecticut and Missouri both told me they had no interest as did every police jurisdiction I contacted.
While I admire your bravado MBT, you are facing a battle that likely won't get you anywhere and will cost you more money in the end.
The seller will likely fare much better than yourself. Good luck...I guess it helps to be a lawyer.
roadrunner
<< <i>The FEDS and other local and state agencies are just to jammed with cases to bother with anything short of major fraud. >>
Surprisingly, they may take interest in internet fraud cases.
I also had a good result awhile ago, when a seller inordinately delayed is shipping a pinball machine purchased on Ebay. I phoned the local polce where the seller resided (Wheeling, West Virginia), and they paid him a visit. The machine was shipped shortly thereafter.
I believe is is imperitative to assert your rights when you've been wronged!
<< <i>I believe is is imperitative to assert your rights when you've been wronged! >>
So do I. But I haven't seen you present a compelling case that you were wronged.
Does the serial number on the note you received match that in the picture? If so, you were a "victim"...of your own bad judgment. Low-feedback seller, sold as-is, clear evidence of creases on the picture, apparently not knowing that "crisp" does not necessarily mean uncirculated...
You victimized yourself far more than the seller victimized you.
BTW, my hats off to the folks at ANACS. I sent it in for five day service, and only afterward was informed by PayPal that they'd need all doc's within ten calendar days. The ANACS folks were very helpful about intercepting my package & doing an upgrade in midstream. I hadn't dared to expect as much. So -- we all know how their grading stacks up in various issues, but if you need just basic authentication kind of stuff I'd recommend them highly.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
I've really mulled this case over quite a lot. Obviously I made all sorts of mistakes I won't make again, and obviously 99% of the folks who've participated in this thread wouldn't have bid in the first place, so this is pretty moot as a "heads up" to the community. Further, the amount of money is small, in the big scheme, yet that isn't the point. If somebody mugs me and I only have five bucks in my pocket, or breaks into my house but only steals my toothbrush, I've still been violated and I will still want justice. The tone this fellow takes as though he's walking the high road, the attempt to distract with a cloud of all-too- practiced accusations, irks me thoroughly.
<< <i>BTW, he's got a new neg from someone else who seems to have gotten a similar run-around. >>
And, as is generally the case with lowlife eBay sellers, he immediately retaliated.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>And, as is generally the case with lowlife eBay sellers, he immediately retaliated. >>
Told a bunch of Lies and then filed a false claim and Lost it. Cancel His Bids Seller poe58 (282)
Reply by masterviewer99: He Sneakily swapped in a Damaged coin. DONT BUY FROM THIS SELLER, VERY RISKY !!
Follow-up by poe58: Artie You Lost The Claim Because your the Liar! I don't sneak! You Do!
Sure is funny how every buyer who has a problem with Poe58 is a liar and a scam artists who swaps coins. This guy is a piece of work.
<< <i>I am tempted to "win" an auction. >>
I have yet to see an abrasive email to you from the seller.
Any word on the aledged virus attack that 2 members falsly accused him of???
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
Now, as for the virus thing. I don't know who the other person is who accused him, but let me recap the info at hand. We have the expanded headers. You got sent the two encapsulated virii (Beagle and the other one). That's all the info I've got. Now, you postulated that maybe somebody else sent them, and they got into my Outlook and took Poe's address to show as a return path. Could be. But again, consider things from where I sit. There was, as far as I know, exactly one person on earth really annoyed with me that evening. I exchange email with lots of people, so Poe's email addy was neither the only nor the most recent one sitting there in my inbox. The principle called "Occam's Razor" dictates that the simplest explanation of a given phenomenon is usually the correct one. So, I think you can see how I drew the conclusion I did. Anyway, I'm curious how you are so certain that this explanation is "false?" What do you know that we don't? In any event, I know no more about it than the last time we exchanged remarks on the matter.
I looked into what you bought from Poe. It looks like you got a nice bust half at a fair price. Anything else you bought from him was not recent enough to see the auction listing. I can see you feel you've gotten fair deals from this fellow and he's treated you well. But that's all you really know about this situation.
The headers you supplied did not trace back to his IP or computer. I knows his IP. I am trying to help him set up a way to host better images than the space eBay allows.
I accept it is your opinion that you were "abraded", but, they don't look that way in your presentation at all to me. Yours do though, harsh and threatening to boot. Old hash, they also contained blatant eBay policy violations in them. They certainly did not contain the tone I would have used in an attempt to reach an understanding or reasonable outcome. The whole thing accelerated too fast.
RYK if you're out there, You may post the contents of my PM if you wish.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
"Reach an understanding"? Spare us this nonsense.
There's only one thing to understand: poe58 is a fraud and you defended it, going so far as to initially claim the same coin was different despite overwhelming photographic and other circumstantial evidence to the contrary.
As far as this issue is concerned, your credibility is destroyed.
Opinion noted, and discarded.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
Why waste the time on an auction he has several [i}Buy it Now!!! listings. If they are to your liking, go for it.... but then again it may just prove this as a one time mistake.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
Let's look at how things "accelerated too fast" in our email exchange:
From me:
Joe -- the coin arrived today; unfortunately it is not as advertised a mint state coin at all. It has been harshly cleaned, and both the obverse and reverse bear the heavy hairlining to show it. I can see how at naked eye level the coin looks, as it does in the pictures with your listing, like a mint state coin with dulled luster. However, under a loupe it is very clear what has happened to it, and further it appears that there is wear on the high points of the design to boot. I'll be sending it back in expectation of a full refund of purchase price. I do not expect a refund of the shipping & handling charge. The coin has a rim bump beneath the 'D' in 'DOL' on the reverse that should be sufficient to identify it as the same coin you listed & sent, as will the distinctive pattern of toning on the obverse. Further, I opened the package in the presence of a witness who will be willing to notarize a statement corroborating that this cleaned coin was the one you sent. Not trying to pull anything on you here, just sending back a coin I find to be not as advertised.
The coin will go in tomorrow morning's mail. I will leave positive feedback when this situation is satisfactorily resolved. Thanks in advance --
From Joe:
Hello Matt
When you received the notice of shipment and then sent me an email attempting to change the terms after you already knew I had shipped the item, I knew I would be hearing from you. In a word the sale was uninsured. The coin was described accurately. There was no rim nick; the coin had not been cleaned… etc…. The scan is still posted on eBay for your inspection. I consider the sale to be final.
Thanks again!
Joe
You have already acknowledged the photos in light of which this email is clearly dishonest. In my shoes, what "understanding" would you have tried to come to from here? Some while back you said we should "kiss and make up." What, exactly, would that look like to you? All there is to understand is that Joe advertised one thing & sent me another, and has tried all sorts of subterfuge to wiggle out of responsibility for it. You'll note, too, in his auction listings a line about "return in the original holder." I wonder, if I'd escaped his insurance snare, would I have been blocked a refund on the grounds that I'd "removed" the coin from its sealed opaque envelope? Idle conjecture, I guess.
In any case, my opinion, which you may note and discard if you like, is that while you mean well, you've made a fool of yourself for this guy because you trusted him. Along the way, you've leveled a few nasty accusations at me with no evidence but his word. I've got a thick skin, and I suppose you thought you were doing this in defense of the hobby -- and heaven knows it needs that -- but you were on the wrong side here. You got taken for a ride, just like me.
So, as things stand now: per his most recent email to me, Joe says there "will be no refund, period." I think there will be. As before, I will post again when something else of substance occurs.
ANA and ebay policies do not have force of law working for them. To take real action is to use the proper channels to achieve the desired remedy.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I haven't discarded your opinions, I have tried to allow for them and even sympathize with some. I discard opinions of trolls. While you feel, you have been wronged. I have never been wronged by him in my transactions with him through eBay 8+ to your one. To me <and they still do> the 1200 dpi scans looked way different to the point of representing a different coin from the eBay scans and were the basis of my thinking. The newer scans you posted were closer. Speaking of scans can we see the slab or certificate? How does one get a certification back in less than a week with the speed of mail and priority mail being what they are? The virus accusations from you and the echo of it were over the top without having proof. A point I didn't address was the postmark, unclejoe nailed that.
My perspective, re:results concerning this transaction so far. I feel the damage done to poe58 on eBay wasn't nearly what I thought it would be. It would appear members of this forum weren't a major part of his customer base to begin with. That being said, someone who wasn't buying in the first place couldn't hurt him by not buying.
I feel you will be out of pocket more than the value of the whole "principle" of your feelings of being wronged represents. That is just me putting myself in your shoes as best I can.
On another note I have scanned my most humble collection and will be posting links later. I don't have a whole lot because everytime my son visits I give most of what I have to him. I think he appreciates it more that way rather than waiting until I'm dead.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
Barber Quarter
<< <i>Obviously I made all sorts of mistakes I won't make again, and obviously 99% of the folks who've participated in this thread wouldn't have bid in the first place, so this is pretty moot as a "heads up" to the community >>
I sure many other people learned a lot from this thread.. Thanks..
How can one possibly look at the absurdly overgraded crap in these auctions and say he's above-board? It's ridiculous. Seems like we have a potential candidate to be an economist on Greenspan's team!
roadrunner
I agree with your analysis that these guys aren't poe's customer base. You and I might be the only guys here who would have taken the bait in the first place.
About the ANACS thing -- I did 2-day service and got fax notification. Coin mailed Saturday, arrived in Ohio Tuesday, graded today & results faxed to me, coin in mail today & probably back in hand Monday, maybe Saturday if they're unusually quick. PayPal wants their info by Tuesday, so if the mail works right, no problem. I will most happily post a pic of the coin in the slab once I've got it.
I am reading this:
<< <i>I feel you will be out of pocket more than the value of the whole "principle" of your feelings of being wronged represents. That is just me putting myself in your shoes as best I can. >>
and I'm not sure what you are saying. I'm going out on a limb here and guessing it's a compassionate way of saying you see my point but don't feel it's worth the bother? If that's it, all I can say is -- mneh... to each his own.
<< <i>Apparently, he doesn't know what PVC is, or he is neglecting to disclose it:
Barber Quarter >>
That's a good possibility. Have you asked him?
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>He's just one of many sellers on eBay selling junk, BB material. What makes him special is in order to get higher bids for his junk, he offers a "7 day no questions asked" return policy that he has rigged in two ways to refuse returns based on technicalities he has created. Very slick, but still a scammer in my opinion. >>
Your opinion is noted. However, has anyone approached him in a gentlemanly manner asking him to consider other options as a better or improved return policy? <other than me that is> I'm sure he would be more apt to listen if approached that way. I have tried but he, like mirabela, is a man of strong principle. My efforts which came after this thread started are responded "That would just be me kissing their <well you know> and I'm not gonna do that." I know I can't do it alone. If readers here feel that he is discrediting the hobby, they should approach him that way. The old "flies with honey" thing. Jumping in on a "bandwagon" that is negative only puts one more on the defensive and puts one who "has his princples" more into the stubborn side.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>As a responsible seller, it is his responsibility to know what he is selling. He's offering a coin that has PVC without mentioning it. He is either incompetent, or is misleading. >>
Okay, next time your printer runs out of paper, keep trying to print to it and just complain. Don't do anything about it just complain and complain. The printer will still be out of paper though.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>I am reading this:
<< <i>I feel you will be out of pocket more than the value of the whole "principle" of your feelings of being wronged represents. That is just me putting myself in your shoes as best I can. >>
and I'm not sure what you are saying. I'm going out on a limb here and guessing it's a compassionate way of saying you see my point but don't feel it's worth the bother? If that's it, all I can say is -- mneh... to each his own. >>
Strictly monetarily speaking, No, I don't think it is worth it. In the same sense, I don't think it was worth it not to refund you either.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
The bottom line is if you're selling raw coins on eBay, it is your responsibility to know what you're selling, and to accurately and fully describe what you're selling. He isn't doing this. Sooner or later it will catch up to him.
I find your die hard defense of this guy very interesting.
<< <i>Poor use of an analogy.
The bottom line is if you're selling raw coins on eBay, it is your responsibility to know what you're selling, and to accurately and fully describe what you're selling. He isn't doing this. Sooner or later it will catch up to him.
I find your die hard defense of this guy very interesting. >>
Apparently, someone either read your post or saw a problem and had a better attitude than you and informed him he needed to reevaluate the coin. Check the link now.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
Where's Poe?
Since when does approaching a flim flam man do any good. Poe will laugh at you behind his back. He says that his 300-400% scans are perfect and allow you to see every flaw. Get real! The copper scans are so dark you can hardly tell what the coin is. The 59-0 seated dollar might as well have been cooked on the barbie the scan is so dark. Are you for real Poe!
I'm not surprised at the ANACS net XF grade. That's about what I figured at $75 tops. And that was an overstatement on my part!
I would imagine the next step is that Poe will claim that ANACS is in cahoots with the forum. Do you think Poe might be Alan Hager?
I'm surprised no one has bid on his Full Head 1927 SLQ with half the head gone due to a right hemispherical lobotomy. But $225 starting bid is a touch steep for a $35-$75 coin.
roadrunner
<< <i>Poor use of an analogy. >>
Not really it fits, see below.
The bottom line is if you're selling raw coins on eBay, it is your responsibility to know what you're selling, and to accurately and fully describe what you're selling. He isn't doing this.
While your statement is indeed true. Wouldn't also be the responsibility of a fellow ANA or PGCS member to point out things in an auction that may have been missed? I would consider it to be the ethical thing to do if for no other reason than to protect your own interests in the hobby or er obsession? Of course, some are doers and others are just complainers.
I find your die hard defense of this guy very interesting.
I have the same thoughts about you in other threads as well. ;*}
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>Look, this guy isn't missing anything. As a matter of fact, he is quite deliberate when you look at his rigged return policy. Give it a break, most of us here see these types of sellers for what they are. >>
And do NOTHING but complain. Rather than help fix things, you just complain, complain, complain. You really want to know what I think? <probably not but here goes anyway> I personnally think poe is a rookie collector who got lucky to make it to a power seller on eBay. People have probably seen problems with his auctions from the start and have never lifted a finger to help guide him into the "right" methods of selling raw coins on ebay. It's all a part of that he's he and I'm me attitude. If you know something is wrong, and you don't try and help correct it, well your negligent and the printer will still be out of paper. It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in there own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things. They'd rather assume that one guy is like everyone else. Well, why not try and help that one "everyone else" to be the correct "everyone else" we'd like to see so this will become a better place for "everyone else " to be?
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>Look, you are looking at this in the light that this seller doesn't know what he is doing. I strongly disagree, he knows exactly what he is doing, which is why he has his "return policy" rigged to the point of refusing any returns. >>
Tell me EXACTLY how the return policy is alledgedly rigged.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
You do make some good points. However, Poe's ignorance, lack of skill in photography or grading, and poorly (and curiously) devised return policy do not absolve him of the sin of selling some (not all) crummy and overgraded coins on ebay and not accepting them back despite ostensibly having a return policy. Frankly, if he were selling crummy and overgraded coins and had no return policy, he would be one of thousands. If he had only accepted the return, as he morally and ethically should have done, we would not be here a week later still discussing the issue.
You are a good and loyal customer (and friend) of Poe's, and I certainly respect that. I just cannot affirm that Poe is an upstanding seller in this case. Period.
<< <i>He says he's got 25 years of ANA membership, doesn't he? >>
Original: Yes, but how many organizations do people carry cards for years and only recently become active? Check his member since on eBay. <another clue when searching for sellers>
Correction: No he does not say 25 Years of ANA membership. He say 25 years of collecting.
I personally have 14 years experience in HVACR and still learn something new almost daily. I received my first computer Christmas of 1986 and I'm still learning stuff on that one. The day I quit learning, my loved ones will be waiting for me under a tent.
Edited because i noticed a mistake.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>Tell me EXACTLY how the return policy is alledgedly rigged. >>
That has already been discussed in this thread several times. Read the thread again from the start if you don't understand.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>
<< <i>Tell me EXACTLY how the return policy is alledgedly rigged. >>
That has already been discussed in this thread several times. Read the thread again from the start if you don't understand. >>
Okay, even though you seem condecending.....
Okay, here go the bullets....
The insurance says "not offered" Not a valid reason to call it rigged....
1) There is a "request total from the seller" button at auction end You can request final shipping costs with insurance in the resulting message box after clicking on it.
2) You have the opportunity to edit the final shipping costs on each and every auction you pay for on eBay. If you want insurance you simply add it to the shipping costs.
3) When paying with Paypal paypal also allows manual editing of the final shipping amount AND provides a message block for requesting insurance.
BAM!!! There are 3 opportunities to request and 2 opportunities to pay for insurance on an auction!
Any others?
had to fix the slashes.....
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.