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Isn't it time to let this five-year-old thread just ... die?
mirabela
Posts: 4,970 ✭✭✭✭✭
OK, I got stupid & bid on a raw item over $50 on ebay. The scumbag seller's ID is "poe58." The supposed mint state seated quarter is badly cleaned. The seller refuses a refund. I'll post his pics & mine a little later tonight, but I'll have to shrink my scans down first as they're too big. Here's the chain of email -- might make an interesting read if anyone cares, but you'll have to read from the bottom up, the way emails work. I guess I left myself open to this one, but it still makes me mad!
Emails below, most recent first:
Joe, you cannot honestly believe I am attempting to swap coins... look at your own scans, look at the scans I sent -- it is the same coin, and you obviously know it. Clearly you do not stand by you items you sell, it is that simple. I fully understand that pleasing everyone on ebay is difficult, I have taken returns myself when I don't necessarily agree with the buyer's interpretation of grading standard or expectation. Still, I do everything I can to deal fairly with folks and leave customers satisfied they got a fair deal. In any case, the standard within the numismatic industry is that if a coin is cleaned or otherwise not original and problem-free, that information is divulged in the listing. If this was an honest mistake and you did not know this about the coin you listed, you take the coin back, swallow the loss and move on. You could follow the example of one ebayer who found himself out $230 on the Lafayette dollar he sold me that turned out counterfeit -- he refunded the price, retired the coin from the market (as far as I know), and got stuck holding the bag on that particular coin -- but retained his integrity as a dealer. I once had an 1860 seated liberty quarter of my own bodybagged for cleaning after owning it 20+ years, and I could not for the life of me find the evidence. Nevertheless, I passed it on to a buyer who knew the graders' verdict, in good conscience. My take on the situation is this: you got stuck with a cleaned coin worth ~30 bucks, and you'd like to get out of it at the price of a problem-free example. If your integrity is only worth $140, I feel badly for you.
I requested contact info in the hopes of a phone number, but I guess we've gotten as far as we're going to go in person on this matter. The comment regarding feedback is in no way blackmail, just a statement of what I see as the logical flow of events given the choices you've made in this matter. At this point, I am happy to leave the outcome to the dispute resolution folks at PayPal, as those at ebay don't seem likely to act on dishonest sellers until they pull the same ripoff dozens of times.
Congratulations in doing your piece to make ebay a place where honest dealers and collectors can't do business safely.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Byrom [mailto:Poe12958@charter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Hello Matt
It is my honest opinion that you have intended from the start to swap items. First off you read the item description and terms of sale. You received the notice of shipment and immediately you tried to renegotiate the terms of the auction before you ever received the item. Also Feedback black mail is a violation of eBay policy. You did not need to request my contact information from eBay. I have provided it to you numerous times already. I will also avail myself of eBay’s seller protection policies. I am not worried for one simple reason. I have dealt fairly with you from the very beginning. If keeping a 100 percent feedback rating means being cheated or worse yet cheating myself, then I will not.
Regards
Joe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 4:49 PM
To: Joe Byrom
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Joe -- In the first place, I did not attempt to 'change terms after I knew you'd shipped the item;' rather I attempted to get my package insured after your own checkout arrangement did not allow me to insure the package. It was only in your reply that I found the item had been shipped. By the way, I use TurboLister too, and have never had any problem making insurance available with it. The rim nick I mention is visible in the your own picture in your own listing, and while I don't consider it a significant detracting factor -- I saw it before I bid, and it is small -- it serves as an identifier of the coin in question. I have attached three scans -- one yours, saved to my computer, the other two mine, taken at 1200 dpi upon receipt of the coin. I will take the following steps if you do not refund the purchase:
1. Pursuit of resolution through ebay buyer protection, including this entire correspondence & scans
2. If no refund, negative feedback. I understand you may approach this in a 'tit for tat' manner, but I believe you've got more to lose here than I.
3. If no refund, I will 'out' your deceptive sale on the PCGS US Coin forum, read by thousands of active ebay coin traders daily
4. I will report this to the ANA
5. Pursue refund through PayPal buyer protection
You have, at the moment, a 100% feedback rating. I would think it would be worth it to you to take back the same coin you sent me, in the condition in which you sent it, at no cost (yes, you can get final value fee refunded & relist your item at no additional charge!) in order to preserve it.
I await your reply.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Byrom [mailto:Poe12958@charter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 3:49 PM
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Hello Matt
When you received the notice of shipment and then sent me an email attempting to change the terms after you already knew I had shipped the item, I knew I would be hearing from you. In a word the sale was uninsured. The coin was described accurately. There was no rim nick; the coin had not been cleaned… etc…. The scan is still posted on eBay for your inspection. I consider the sale to be final.
Thanks again!
Joe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 3:07 PM
To: Joe Byrom
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Joe -- the coin arrived today; unfortunately it is not as advertised a mint state coin at all. It has been harshly cleaned, and both the obverse and reverse bear the heavy hairlining to show it. I can see how at naked eye level the coin looks, as it does in the pictures with your listing, like a mint state coin with dulled luster. However, under a loupe it is very clear what has happened to it, and further it appears that there is wear on the high points of the design to boot. I'll be sending it back in expectation of a full refund of purchase price. I do not expect a refund of the shipping & handling charge. The coin has a rim bump beneath the 'D' in 'DOL' on the reverse that should be sufficient to identify it as the same coin you listed & sent, as will the distinctive pattern of toning on the obverse. Further, I opened the package in the presence of a witness who will be willing to notarize a statement corroborating that this cleaned coin was the one you sent. Not trying to pull anything on you here, just sending back a coin I find to be not as advertised.
The coin will go in tomorrow morning's mail. I will leave positive feedback when this situation is satisfactorily resolved. Thanks in advance --
From: Joe Byrom [mailto:Poe12958@charter.net]
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 12:55 AM
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Hello Matt
It is my honest opinion that you will be pleased with your purchase. If you will recall, I stated in the item description that I believed the coin would grade as MS-60. In fact I believe it will grade as MS-62. The reason I don’t grade the coin as an MS-63 is due to some light scuff marks on the obverse. I am aware that PCGS allows the light scuff marks on a grade of MS-63, but I do not. I always try and under grade the coins in the listings. The reason for this is simple. It cuts down on returns. I have also found that when a customer such as you is pleased with their purchase they tend to become repeat buyers.
The reason that I have a no return policy on uninsured items is because I had a customer return what he called a shipment damaged coin. The coin he returned was indeed damaged, but it wasn’t damaged in transit. The coin he tried to return had a deep scratch on the obverse and the scratch had toned. It had been damaged for a long time. I keep scans of all the items I sale for not less than 90 days. There was no doubt that I had never listed that coin. My terms and conditions have evolved in response to a few less than honest people on eBay. I grant you that it is unfair that the rest of us have to pay for their misdeeds.
If you will, check the feedback that has been left for me. I don’t mean what they say. I mean see how many have purchased subsequent items from me. I think that more than anything else should put your mind at ease. Also, the email that you received earlier notifying you that I had shipped your item in today’s mail contained my contact information. The reason that I placed that information there is in the hope that if you were not satisfied, you would use it to contact me.
Once again, I thank you!
Joe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 12:11 AM
To: Joe Byrom
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Joe -- thanks for getting back to me quickly. I'm sorry to hear I wasn't quick enough to get you before you got to the PO. Honestly, the reason I tried to catch you has to do w/ return policy. Generally, I never bid on anything raw without one. In reviewing the listing, I noticed you stipulate you only honor a return policy on items shipped insured, and recalled I was unable to insure the coin, as I would ordinarily have done... Can I assume that, in the event, you would honor your return policy on this uninsured item? You shouldn't worry, I've returned something like 3 of 60+ coins purchased in the last 6 months, on account of damage, cleaning, or frank overgrading. Hoping we can put worries to rest --
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Byrom [mailto:Poe12958@charter.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 11:44 PM
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
I am sorry, but I have already shipped your item in today’s mail. The reason that the insurance shows up as not offered is that turbo lister will reject the upload. I have tried to have the software problem corrected.
Thanks again
Joe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 11:27 PM
To: poe12958@charter.net
Subject: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Importance: High
Question about your item
Dear poe58,
Hi there -- I paypal'ed payment for the 1877 quarter today, however insurance was shown as 'not offered.' I would certainly like to have the coin sent insured for my protection and yours; would it be OK if I were to paypal an additional $5.20 (1.30 x 4) to you for this service? Please let me know; I can send a check if you'd rather. And please ship the coin w/ insurance. Thank you -- Matt Dickstein
Emails below, most recent first:
Joe, you cannot honestly believe I am attempting to swap coins... look at your own scans, look at the scans I sent -- it is the same coin, and you obviously know it. Clearly you do not stand by you items you sell, it is that simple. I fully understand that pleasing everyone on ebay is difficult, I have taken returns myself when I don't necessarily agree with the buyer's interpretation of grading standard or expectation. Still, I do everything I can to deal fairly with folks and leave customers satisfied they got a fair deal. In any case, the standard within the numismatic industry is that if a coin is cleaned or otherwise not original and problem-free, that information is divulged in the listing. If this was an honest mistake and you did not know this about the coin you listed, you take the coin back, swallow the loss and move on. You could follow the example of one ebayer who found himself out $230 on the Lafayette dollar he sold me that turned out counterfeit -- he refunded the price, retired the coin from the market (as far as I know), and got stuck holding the bag on that particular coin -- but retained his integrity as a dealer. I once had an 1860 seated liberty quarter of my own bodybagged for cleaning after owning it 20+ years, and I could not for the life of me find the evidence. Nevertheless, I passed it on to a buyer who knew the graders' verdict, in good conscience. My take on the situation is this: you got stuck with a cleaned coin worth ~30 bucks, and you'd like to get out of it at the price of a problem-free example. If your integrity is only worth $140, I feel badly for you.
I requested contact info in the hopes of a phone number, but I guess we've gotten as far as we're going to go in person on this matter. The comment regarding feedback is in no way blackmail, just a statement of what I see as the logical flow of events given the choices you've made in this matter. At this point, I am happy to leave the outcome to the dispute resolution folks at PayPal, as those at ebay don't seem likely to act on dishonest sellers until they pull the same ripoff dozens of times.
Congratulations in doing your piece to make ebay a place where honest dealers and collectors can't do business safely.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Byrom [mailto:Poe12958@charter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Hello Matt
It is my honest opinion that you have intended from the start to swap items. First off you read the item description and terms of sale. You received the notice of shipment and immediately you tried to renegotiate the terms of the auction before you ever received the item. Also Feedback black mail is a violation of eBay policy. You did not need to request my contact information from eBay. I have provided it to you numerous times already. I will also avail myself of eBay’s seller protection policies. I am not worried for one simple reason. I have dealt fairly with you from the very beginning. If keeping a 100 percent feedback rating means being cheated or worse yet cheating myself, then I will not.
Regards
Joe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 4:49 PM
To: Joe Byrom
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Joe -- In the first place, I did not attempt to 'change terms after I knew you'd shipped the item;' rather I attempted to get my package insured after your own checkout arrangement did not allow me to insure the package. It was only in your reply that I found the item had been shipped. By the way, I use TurboLister too, and have never had any problem making insurance available with it. The rim nick I mention is visible in the your own picture in your own listing, and while I don't consider it a significant detracting factor -- I saw it before I bid, and it is small -- it serves as an identifier of the coin in question. I have attached three scans -- one yours, saved to my computer, the other two mine, taken at 1200 dpi upon receipt of the coin. I will take the following steps if you do not refund the purchase:
1. Pursuit of resolution through ebay buyer protection, including this entire correspondence & scans
2. If no refund, negative feedback. I understand you may approach this in a 'tit for tat' manner, but I believe you've got more to lose here than I.
3. If no refund, I will 'out' your deceptive sale on the PCGS US Coin forum, read by thousands of active ebay coin traders daily
4. I will report this to the ANA
5. Pursue refund through PayPal buyer protection
You have, at the moment, a 100% feedback rating. I would think it would be worth it to you to take back the same coin you sent me, in the condition in which you sent it, at no cost (yes, you can get final value fee refunded & relist your item at no additional charge!) in order to preserve it.
I await your reply.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Byrom [mailto:Poe12958@charter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 3:49 PM
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Hello Matt
When you received the notice of shipment and then sent me an email attempting to change the terms after you already knew I had shipped the item, I knew I would be hearing from you. In a word the sale was uninsured. The coin was described accurately. There was no rim nick; the coin had not been cleaned… etc…. The scan is still posted on eBay for your inspection. I consider the sale to be final.
Thanks again!
Joe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 3:07 PM
To: Joe Byrom
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Joe -- the coin arrived today; unfortunately it is not as advertised a mint state coin at all. It has been harshly cleaned, and both the obverse and reverse bear the heavy hairlining to show it. I can see how at naked eye level the coin looks, as it does in the pictures with your listing, like a mint state coin with dulled luster. However, under a loupe it is very clear what has happened to it, and further it appears that there is wear on the high points of the design to boot. I'll be sending it back in expectation of a full refund of purchase price. I do not expect a refund of the shipping & handling charge. The coin has a rim bump beneath the 'D' in 'DOL' on the reverse that should be sufficient to identify it as the same coin you listed & sent, as will the distinctive pattern of toning on the obverse. Further, I opened the package in the presence of a witness who will be willing to notarize a statement corroborating that this cleaned coin was the one you sent. Not trying to pull anything on you here, just sending back a coin I find to be not as advertised.
The coin will go in tomorrow morning's mail. I will leave positive feedback when this situation is satisfactorily resolved. Thanks in advance --
From: Joe Byrom [mailto:Poe12958@charter.net]
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 12:55 AM
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Hello Matt
It is my honest opinion that you will be pleased with your purchase. If you will recall, I stated in the item description that I believed the coin would grade as MS-60. In fact I believe it will grade as MS-62. The reason I don’t grade the coin as an MS-63 is due to some light scuff marks on the obverse. I am aware that PCGS allows the light scuff marks on a grade of MS-63, but I do not. I always try and under grade the coins in the listings. The reason for this is simple. It cuts down on returns. I have also found that when a customer such as you is pleased with their purchase they tend to become repeat buyers.
The reason that I have a no return policy on uninsured items is because I had a customer return what he called a shipment damaged coin. The coin he returned was indeed damaged, but it wasn’t damaged in transit. The coin he tried to return had a deep scratch on the obverse and the scratch had toned. It had been damaged for a long time. I keep scans of all the items I sale for not less than 90 days. There was no doubt that I had never listed that coin. My terms and conditions have evolved in response to a few less than honest people on eBay. I grant you that it is unfair that the rest of us have to pay for their misdeeds.
If you will, check the feedback that has been left for me. I don’t mean what they say. I mean see how many have purchased subsequent items from me. I think that more than anything else should put your mind at ease. Also, the email that you received earlier notifying you that I had shipped your item in today’s mail contained my contact information. The reason that I placed that information there is in the hope that if you were not satisfied, you would use it to contact me.
Once again, I thank you!
Joe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 12:11 AM
To: Joe Byrom
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Joe -- thanks for getting back to me quickly. I'm sorry to hear I wasn't quick enough to get you before you got to the PO. Honestly, the reason I tried to catch you has to do w/ return policy. Generally, I never bid on anything raw without one. In reviewing the listing, I noticed you stipulate you only honor a return policy on items shipped insured, and recalled I was unable to insure the coin, as I would ordinarily have done... Can I assume that, in the event, you would honor your return policy on this uninsured item? You shouldn't worry, I've returned something like 3 of 60+ coins purchased in the last 6 months, on account of damage, cleaning, or frank overgrading. Hoping we can put worries to rest --
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Byrom [mailto:Poe12958@charter.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 11:44 PM
Subject: RE: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
I am sorry, but I have already shipped your item in today’s mail. The reason that the insurance shows up as not offered is that turbo lister will reject the upload. I have tried to have the software problem corrected.
Thanks again
Joe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 11:27 PM
To: poe12958@charter.net
Subject: Question about shipping for item #3922454242 - 1877 Seated Liberty Quarter (BU)
Importance: High
Question about your item
Dear poe58,
Hi there -- I paypal'ed payment for the 1877 quarter today, however insurance was shown as 'not offered.' I would certainly like to have the coin sent insured for my protection and yours; would it be OK if I were to paypal an additional $5.20 (1.30 x 4) to you for this service? Please let me know; I can send a check if you'd rather. And please ship the coin w/ insurance. Thank you -- Matt Dickstein
mirabela
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Yes, the dealer is also a seemingly dishonest person, but you must also take some responsibility for your mistake!
JMHO...Ken
If the seller is going to rely on lies about the coin's being switched, hopefully Ebay and/or others will see through that extremely transparent/weak defense/argument of his.
Best of luck to you.
Edited to add: Why not post a link, so those of us who wish, can let the seller know he's being other than smart, business-wise?
<< <i>The grade, if any, I place in the item description is only My Opinion. I always provide High resolution scans in my auctions. >>
Good luck with this dealing and I too would like to see a LINK to the auction.
peacockcoins
<< <i>My Return Policy!
This Return Policy Covers Insured Items Only!
I have a seven-day no questions asked return policy. Just notify me with in seven days of the auction close and return the item in its original holder, and I will refund your payment less Shipping and handling. Shipping and Handling Please add $2.50 for regular mail or $5.55 for Priority Mail with delivery confirmation. If Insurance is desired, please add $1.30 for each Fifty Dollars of value. Uninsured items will be shipped at buyer's risk. Items are shipped when payment is received. In the case of an E-check, when the funds are released into my account. >>
What's with the return policy only covering insured items? I've never heard of that...anybody?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3922454242&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT
Anyway, like some said -- I left myself open for it, even if he is the one being dishonest. I posted it mostly as a reminder of what's out there waiting for us, and as a tipoff about this specific seller. And, re the appearance of the coin -- I think this one was like the trout & the fisherman's fly -- it turns up a hundred good fakes, but then one looks like *just maybe*... I was figuring *either* dull luster on account of dipping, which I'm OK with for the $, or cleaning, in which case you send it back... Never dreamt (yes, I should have, don't kick me, I'll kick myself thanks) the guy would be such a pri*ck about THAT.
And, now that I'm getting angry and moving faster than I should -- I feedbacked the guy and forgot to move the button from "positive" to "negative," so my comments go down in green and he keeps his 100%. Maybe my worst day yet in ebayland...
Linky
This guy has a nice little scam going. He sells junk, and knowing that he would get a lot of returns, comes up with this ridiculous return policy, then fixes it so you can't insure the coin. Then when you email him, oops, he already sent the coin uninsured. What a racket!
Keep in mind that those e-mails were all exchanged "after the fact"!
The seller will eventually get what's coming to him!
Ken
<< <i>At this point, I am happy to leave the outcome to the dispute resolution folks at PayPal, as those at ebay don't seem likely to act on dishonest sellers until they pull the same ripoff dozens of times. >>
Oh Man! "Spit in one hand and wish in the other..." Relying on PayPal to resolve something is worthless. Sorry to hear about your loss.
But, it does also look like the seller is pulling a bit of a scam, stipulating returns on insured coins only and then not listing the coin with an insurance option. It would have been easy though for you to alter the payment amount manually to comply with the terms as it was clearly set forth in his auction text. However, you paid, without adding an insurance amount (why would you do that if you knew it would negate your return privelage?) and then asked about a return before even seeing the coin.
Bottom line, I think BOTH of you are being a little less than honest with each other.
As for your course of action, you may have none other than the post on this forum. I doubt eBay or PayPal will do anything in this case as the seller didn't violate any rules of listing, that I'm aware of, clearly spelled out his return policy in the auction, and acted accordingly. The ANA does require sellers to offer a return privelage, but NOT IN AN AUCTION SETTING.
So, be more careful in the future as to what you bid on and do read the auction text. And slow down on sending payments and posting feedback as you appear to have bungled both of these simple functions.
-Robert
NEVER, NEVER BUY A RAW COIN ON EBAY.
REPEAT FOR THE HARD OF HEARING OR WHO HAVE MEMORY PROBLEMS:
NEVER, NEVER BUY A RAW COIN ON EBAY.
.....................................................................
If you ever did buy a raw coin on Ebay, and you had good results, consider yourself lucky.
If you ever do buy another raw coin on Ebay because you can't help yourself, then buy it from a member of these forums. Enough said on this matter.
.......................................................................
Sorry you had problems with the seller on that Ebay auction.
Good luck getting your money back.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
Louis
peacockcoins
Unsavory sellers who are not known to us ( and regretably known by their poor quality material ) should be avoided at all costs.
Having to read every nuance imbedded in the fine print takes the joy out of dealing with Ebay. Seeing fellow collectors taken advantage of makes my blood boil.
I buy a fair number of raw coins from dealers I know and trust, as well as from fellow Forum members who have shown knowledge of quality coins for their grade. A few times these raw coins are purchased sight unseen, and I have been happy with the purchases. Buying ( as well as selling ) coins is really a matter of trust one develops between the seller and the buyer. I have not, however, purchased a raw coin on Ebay primarily because sages, with more experience than I, have forewarned me to the disadvantages of this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
NEVER, NEVER BUY A RAW COIN ON EBAY.
and add:
or anywhere else unless you are so confident about your grading skills that you are willing to buy them and if they don't work out right, take your lumps and don't do it again or get them on approval which obviously isn't an option on ebay etc.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
97% of the time that I've purchased raw coins on ebay, I've received quality coins that met or exceeded my expectations. Y'all make it sound like every raw coin out there is a scam waiting to happen.....
Good luck.
I have a somewhat similar story. I am, besides a coin collector, a vintage Hollyowood autograph dealer and collector. I purchased, on eBay, a Bela Lugosi signed cut (as crazy as that sounds, anyone who collects vintage signatures seriously will know that there is a small mint to be made on eBay - IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING). I was sent a very poor forgery - not the genuine signature posted in the auction. I went after this person hard with the FBI, a lawyer, the Postal Service as he was committing Mail Fraud, and a host of other "minions of the law" as Bela himself would say. I actually invited the seller, with a broad smile, to turn himself in to Fitzsimmons at the FBI - even gave him the phone # and also links to several Internet Fraud sites with the invitation to turn himself in. I got a full refund (FAST) and kept the fake Lugosi as well for my records. I paste below another letter that I wrote to get a refund on forged items - while it is Autographs and not coins the gist ought to be the same. These letters have NEVER failed me. Having said that, I have made many, many incredible purchases on eBay - among them a PSA/DNA signed unique 1955 candid photograph of Judy Garland for $68 ($450+), several Richard Burton letters (TLS's) and photos (ISP's) for under $10 ($150+ea) and much more - in just this last year. I have picked up vintage fountain pen signed 1950's Gleasons for $7.00! I have had but 3 or so problems in the 5 or 6 years I am on eBay, all of which resulted in full refunds. I have NEVER bought without a scan - now I always contact with the seller and get a clear return policy in writing through eBay's mail system (important). No trouble since these events.
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here is the second letter: "Mr. XXXXXX, I received the Twilight Zone cards today. My partner bid on them while I was vacationing in Maine and he was unable to interpret the blatant red flags in your (inflated) feedback properly. These "signatures" are, of course, obvious forgeries (it is irrelevant if you are aware of this - YOU are selling them - a "no return" policy or any "COA" can't help you - not with autographs). All signatures are clearly by the same hand, and this can be easily proven in a court of law. Mr. Shatner has signed personally for me on more than one occasion - while he tends to skip or blend letters when he is tired he does not add letters that are not in his name, nor has he ever signed anything "Bill" (read his recent book - he states so himself). "Bill' signatures are the result of forgers misunderstanding the structure of his autograph. All are insultingly poor forgeries, particularly the Mumy. Obviously, I want a full refund, including all shipping etc. Failure to respond to me and to forward a full refund immediately will result in much Federal and legal unpleasantness for you - your "merchandise" will not withstand any reasonable examination and you damn well know it, and you certainly would not enjoy a Discovery Motion in court. I have the time, the money, and, thanks to you, the motivation to pursue this matter to the obvious conclusion. If you have any question regarding forgeries and the ramifications of selling them to a knowledgeable dealer, please contact Mr. Tim Fitzsimmons at the FBI - I include his number here for your convenience - (858) xxx-xxxx. If you prefer, you can tip off the Internet Fraud Complaint Center about yourself at http://www.fbi.gov and save me the trouble. Then there is also the rollicking fun of a U.S. Mail Fraud Investigation. I am quite sure you will choose to simply issue a refund. Your "merchandise" will be returned upon receipt of the refund."
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eBay is a SEWER of forged autographed memorabilia, and a lot of other junk as well as your coin (it looks unnatural to me in the scan as posted). However, if you have a good level of expertise and experience, you can make quite a killing on eBay (re autographs). I would NEVER buy anything without a scan, from a pvt auction (I don't like bidding against the seller), or a seller w/pvt feedback. And I will point out that almost every Autograph dealer who is not a reputable name dealer and has 100% feedback with huge #'s of sales - guess what? It is all bogus. I watch the sellers, the shills and all between. Feedback means almost nothing to me - in reality I think it proves very little. I rarely look at it - obviously, a lot of negs are a problem. These very few problems I've had are countered by thousands of positive, pleasant and profitable transactions on eBay.
Hope your situation works out to your liking. At least you won't make that mistake again - learning is what it is all about. After observing for so long, I have identified several forgery rings, one notably operating out of Boston. He/they sell cuts of incredibly big names for a start of 1$, every week Lugosi, Bogart, Brando, Garland, Leigh, Bruce Lee, Chaplin etc..(now where could they be getting them - and usually on the same paper too..) I have even been keeping an eye on who has mulitple ID's (the forgeries they post give them away as you can identify the same hand) and who shills for who. It is pathetic to watch some fool buy a Brando "signed" 8x10 for $22 (worth $1000+) - Brando would not sign even if you made him an offer he couldn't refuse - yet it happens all the time. Many people are just drawn to the lower priced forgery despite clear logic to the contrary - but as a GREAT dealer I know says "it ain't a deal if it ain't real!" A lot of this has to do with basic ignorance of the hobby on the part of the collectors I think - few of whom do the research despite bearing the full responsibility of any purchase. Kind of like buying the grade on a slab and not the coin I guess - operating blindly. All just my humble opinions, and meant to help
Best to you,
Billy
PS - I know this is a lot of Autograph info - but it ought to "cross over"
<< <i>
<< <i>What a bunch of crappolla.
Tom
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't US Rare coins one of the biggest submitters to Pcgs and Ngc? Are you saying that you dont buy raw
coins? I may be mixing you up with U S Rare coins in Texas. >>
Yes you are mixed up.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
mail fraud link
I just wanted to take a moment to respond. I have to date refunded 6 out of 8 uninsured items requested. I have had only 9 total refund requests out of 335 total transactions. I have a number of people who purchase repeatedly from me. Having said that, in this case Matt emailed me after he received the notice of shipment from PayPal. He knew the item had been shipped. He stated he wanted insurance knowing that I could not do so. The rest is simple logic. The reason there is no insurance offered is due to turbo lister’s narrow option choices. I state in every auction in bold print no return on uninsured items. The reason is simple; I have been burned by having a “damaged Coin returned.” with no insurance. Since so many of you have judged me, take a moment to actually view and read one of my current listings. You will find in simple straight forward language the amount I charge for insurance.
For the majority of transactions it is the same as USPS rates. I do charge a little more on some to recover the cost actually driving to the post office which I have to do to purchase insurance. The reasons I have refused and will continue to refuse a refund to banjospitnwhittle AKA Matt is simple.
(1.) From the start Matt has acted in a deceptive manner.
IE He knew the item had been shipped then requested to purchase insurance
(2.) He tried to black mail and intimidate me into a refund.
(3.) I know the coin I shipped and its condition
It was not cleaned ETC…
(4.) I am a member of both The ANA and PCGS. I feel that people who act in the manner that Matt has need to be brought out in the open for all to see. By acting as he has he has done so.
Judge me if you must, but at least take a look at one of my listings first. If after you have done so you feel I should change the terms and conditions, please feel free to email me at poe12958@charter.net.
Thanks to all!
Joe
I just wanted to take a moment to respond. I have to date refunded 6 out of 8 uninsured items requested. I have had only 9 total refund requests out of 335 total transactions. I have a number of people who purchase repeatedly from me. Having said that, in this case Matt emailed me after he received the notice of shipment from PayPal. He knew the item had been shipped. He stated he wanted insurance knowing that I could not do so. The rest is simple logic. The reason there is no insurance offered is due to turbo lister’s narrow option choices. I state in every auction in bold print no return on uninsured items. The reason is simple; I have been burned by having a “damaged Coin returned.” with no insurance. Since so many of you have judged me, take a moment to actually view and read one of my current listings. You will find in simple straight forward language the amount I charge for insurance.
For the majority of transactions it is the same as USPS rates. I do charge a little more on some to recover the cost actually driving to the post office which I have to do to purchase insurance. The reasons I have refused and will continue to refuse a refund to banjospitnwhittle AKA Matt is simple.
(1.) From the start Matt has acted in a deceptive manner.
IE He knew the item had been shipped then requested to purchase insurance
(2.) He tried to black mail and intimidate me into a refund.
(3.) I know the coin I shipped and its condition
It was not cleaned ETC…
(4.) I am a member of both The ANA and PCGS. I feel that people who act in the manner that Matt has need to be brought out in the open for all to see. By acting as he has he has done so.
Judge me if you must, but at least take a look at one of my listings first. If after you have done so you feel I should change the terms and conditions, please feel free to email me at poe12958@charter.net.
Thanks to all!
Joe
I just wanted to take a moment to respond. I have to date refunded 6 out of 8 uninsured items requested. I have had only 9 total refund requests out of 335 total transactions. I have a number of people who purchase repeatedly from me. Having said that, in this case Matt emailed me after he received the notice of shipment from PayPal. He knew the item had been shipped. He stated he wanted insurance knowing that I could not do so. The rest is simple logic. The reason there is no insurance offered is due to turbo lister’s narrow option choices. I state in every auction in bold print no return on uninsured items. The reason is simple; I have been burned by having a “damaged Coin returned.” with no insurance. Since so many of you have judged me, take a moment to actually view and read one of my current listings. You will find in simple straight forward language the amount I charge for insurance.
For the majority of transactions it is the same as USPS rates. I do charge a little more on some to recover the cost actually driving to the post office which I have to do to purchase insurance. The reasons I have refused and will continue to refuse a refund to banjospitnwhittle AKA Matt is simple.
(1.) From the start Matt has acted in a deceptive manner.
IE He knew the item had been shipped then requested to purchase insurance
(2.) He tried to black mail and intimidate me into a refund.
(3.) I know the coin I shipped and its condition
It was not cleaned ETC…
(4.) I am a member of both The ANA and PCGS. I feel that people who act in the manner that Matt has need to be brought out in the open for all to see. By acting as he has he has done so.
Judge me if you must, but at least take a look at one of my listings first. If after you have done so you feel I should change the terms and conditions, please feel free to email me at poe12958@charter.net.
Thanks to all!
Joe
I am sure you probably checked this out, but the auction closed late Wednesay night on July 28th, and you emailed him and received a response on Thursday night, July 29th, stating the coin was already mailed. So that means he HAD to mail it on July 29th. Does the postmark show that?
If not, and a later date, you can catch him in a lie. And have some more bargining power. Good luck!
Could you please explain what in the world buying or not buying postal insurance has to do with a refund policy?
The coin wasn't lost or damaged in shipment, which is what insurance would cover.
"I'm sorry, I can't accept your return because I had oatmeal for breakfast the day you bought the coin " makes about as much sense.
Also, in your emails quoted above you deny the coin in question has a rim mark, but it is clearly visible from your auction picture which someone posted.
Whether or not the coin has been cleaned, I can't tell for sure but it sure does have that look.
<< <i>but it still smells like a load of crap to me! >>
I have explianed already. Please take a moment and read my response.
Thanks agian!
Joe
<< <i>Hello Theop I have explianed already. Please take a moment and read my response. Thanks agian! Joe >>
If you are having trouble with your coins getting damaged in shipment, perhaps you should package them better.
Alternatively, for returns you could require the buyer ship the coin back with insurance.
I do think it is minimal trouble for a seller to edit the shipping in his auctions to allow for the insurance if he knows his software for posting is flawed. IF it is indeed flawed he should find a package that does not contain that flaw.
Your chain of correspondance provided in the first posting is missing crucial pieces of information ie the PayPal notices <sans personal info of course> Payment receipt and shipping in particular. Is poe58 a bad seller? I don't think so. Every message you sent him was responded within less than 2 hours. A bad seller would not bother to respond at all and even then would most likely do so in a rude manner.
Are you a bad buyer? From your own provided corrrespondances, The conclusion is yes. You attempted to alter a completed transaction after shipment notice had been received. I believe another poster put that as a "Big Red flag". When the answer to your message wasn't to your liking you responded with what can be clearly be interpreted as "threats" again this is what I consider another in the "Big Red Flag" category and typical of a buyer attempting a scam. While your intents may have been truthful your correspondances fit the pattern of a buyer attempting a scam. In this case a "swap".
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>Are you a bad buyer? From your own provided corrrespondances, The conclusion is yes. You attempted to alter a completed transaction after shipment notice had been received. I believe another poster put that as a "Big Red flag". When the answer to your message wasn't to your liking you responded with what can be clearly be interpreted as "threats" again this is what I consider another in the "Big Red Flag" category and typical of a buyer attempting a scam. While your intents may have been truthful your correspondances fit the pattern of a buyer attempting a scam. In this case a "swap". >>
catfish172
Posts: 1
Joined: Aug 2004
I am not having a problem with my coins being damaged. I had one person who wanted to return a damaged coin. I did allow the return, and I started allowing returns on insured items only to provent future losses. I will continue the practice. If I required only insurance on the return shipping the problem would remian.
Thanks agian.
Joe