@jmlanzaf said:
Honestly, there are times where it is obvious why a 69 didn't make 70. But, overall, I think most collectors would struggle to see the difference. So, I'm with you, why waste money to upgrade a coin when you can't see the upgrade.
Resale value and appreciation. The reality of the marketplace is that 70's seem to go up in value faster and more than 69's. Overall they are a better investment.
Past performance is not indicative of future performance. But, if it is, modern Mint 70s rarely go up at all. So, they may go down slower, but they have farther to fall.
They are, at best, less horrible investments.
I think that this is a useful point to make; thanks!
I think it's important to bifurcate this discussion into two forks: (i) I have a bunch of the modern Morgan and Peace coins in OGP; should I get them graded?, and (ii) I want to buy one on the secondary market, should I buy a 69, a 70, or OGP?
For me, the additional value of a 70 over a 69 isn't nearly enough (especially for the 2023 versions) to justify the time, trouble and expense of getting the ones I bought from the Mint graded. And I like the look of OGP more than I like the look of a slab.
But, were I looking to buy one on the secondary market, I probably would buy a 70, simply because they don't cost much more than a 69/OGP, and they will be easier to sell some day.
But none of these coins is, in general, a "good investment." For those of us willing and able to beat our way through the cluster-f**k that was the "process" to buy the 2021 ones directly from the Mint, those certainly appreciated in value, and have stayed high. But the Mint learned from that debacle, and now they're like most of the Mint offerings: Something you'll like if you like that sort of thing, but not something that you'll make a bunch of money on (either raw or graded).
Even the 2021s are mostly lower than they were immediately after release. They have held up but they aren't appreciating.
If people want 70s, that's fine. People can buy what they want. But justifying the expense as an "investment" always seems to me to be a strained argument.
But going with the logic that people generally don't buy something today if they think it will cost less tomorrow, coins are purchased with the expectation of holding or increasing in value. So just because what you say is true in general, it doesn't mean that it will happen with these Rev Proof coins and doesn't mean people don't buy them as investments (no matter how poor the investment actually is). I can (and I''m sure you can as well) provide several examples of modern issues that have increased considerably in value and if you look at those the 70's outperform the 69's. And people also like the idea of owning a perfect coin (or at least the best grade).
Its always going to come down to demand. You did well if you bought PCGS 70s ASE from '86 on.
The Mint can squash demand easily and they probably will with oversupply. I would tread carefully if you think demand will puah values upward down the road on most issues.
@jmlanzaf said:
Honestly, there are times where it is obvious why a 69 didn't make 70. But, overall, I think most collectors would struggle to see the difference. So, I'm with you, why waste money to upgrade a coin when you can't see the upgrade.
Resale value and appreciation. The reality of the marketplace is that 70's seem to go up in value faster and more than 69's. Overall they are a better investment.
Past performance is not indicative of future performance. But, if it is, modern Mint 70s rarely go up at all. So, they may go down slower, but they have farther to fall.
They are, at best, less horrible investments.
I think that this is a useful point to make; thanks!
I think it's important to bifurcate this discussion into two forks: (i) I have a bunch of the modern Morgan and Peace coins in OGP; should I get them graded?, and (ii) I want to buy one on the secondary market, should I buy a 69, a 70, or OGP?
For me, the additional value of a 70 over a 69 isn't nearly enough (especially for the 2023 versions) to justify the time, trouble and expense of getting the ones I bought from the Mint graded. And I like the look of OGP more than I like the look of a slab.
But, were I looking to buy one on the secondary market, I probably would buy a 70, simply because they don't cost much more than a 69/OGP, and they will be easier to sell some day.
But none of these coins is, in general, a "good investment." For those of us willing and able to beat our way through the cluster-f**k that was the "process" to buy the 2021 ones directly from the Mint, those certainly appreciated in value, and have stayed high. But the Mint learned from that debacle, and now they're like most of the Mint offerings: Something you'll like if you like that sort of thing, but not something that you'll make a bunch of money on (either raw or graded).
Even the 2021s are mostly lower than they were immediately after release. They have held up but they aren't appreciating.
If people want 70s, that's fine. People can buy what they want. But justifying the expense as an "investment" always seems to me to be a strained argument.
But going with the logic that people generally don't buy something today if they think it will cost less tomorrow, coins are purchased with the expectation of holding or increasing in value. So just because what you say is true in general, it doesn't mean that it will happen with these Rev Proof coins and doesn't mean people don't buy them as investments (no matter how poor the investment actually is). I can (and I''m sure you can as well) provide several examples of modern issues that have increased considerably in value and if you look at those the 70's outperform the 69's. And people also like the idea of owning a perfect coin (or at least the best grade).
You are correct. Many people (incorrectly) buy them expecting them to increase in value. It's also why people buy Beanie babies and Hess trucks.
As I said, if you want a 70, buy a 70. If you want a pretty coin, buy a 69 or raw. You probably won't notice the difference and you'll save a ton of money.
@Vasanti said:
Got my results today. 1 out of 5 Morgan Reverse Proofs achieved MS70. 3 out of 5 Peace Reverse Proofs achieved MS70. So a 40% success rate. This will be the last time I try to buy stuff from the mint and get my own graded. It’s not financially worth it.
@Vasanti said:
Got my results today. 1 out of 5 Morgan Reverse Proofs achieved MS70. 3 out of 5 Peace Reverse Proofs achieved MS70. So a 40% success rate. This will be the last time I try to buy stuff from the mint and get my own graded. It’s not financially worth it.
These coins are absolutely gorgeous. I got 3 70s for peace and 3 69s for Morgans. Seems like the 70s grade for the morgans are low. Wonder if we will have a repeat of the 2021-D Coins with low % of 70 grades on the 2023 morgans.
Not taking into account the cost of 69s( or worse) , eBay store fees, capital costs , labor costs or cost of postage from PCGS to dealer (and assuming big orders shipped from mint to PCGS so maybe more postage costs ?)
$300 set off eBay
Bulk sub FS $32 per coin = $64 (this is for 100 coin submissions - probably lower for really big submissions ?)
Postage to buyer $5
7.25% eBay fees $22
Cost coins $185
$24 profit on a FS 70 set to help cover all the costs listed above
Had to check drfish haha. Assuming PR70...for only 1 coin in consideration of the 2
$92.50 per Coin ($185 each right?)
$17 Modern Grading Services
$18 First Strike Grading Services
$5.33 Shipping Fees ($32/6 3 coin set for me)
$1.67 Handling Fee ($10/6 3 coin set for me)
$4.33 Shipping to PCGS ($26/6 3 coin set for me)
eBay Pricing around $179ish currently
eBay Fees
Profit: $13.64 per coin. So about $27.28 ish per set.
@Goldbully said:
I would have thought the Mint would have put up some of the return inventory by now.
There is a very small return window of 7 days once you have received your order, so I have to assume virtually all returns have been made.
Does it take that long to visually inspect these coins?
Will they wait until all coins have been inspected?
.......or, will they never offer them again?
What do you think?
More should come available but the numbers will likely be small. Many are saved as sealed sets and some of the returns are not saleable.
I just received my PCGS 70 set from James Sego (segoja on eBay) and they are beautiful. An added bonus is the PCGS slabs fit perfectly into the OGP. These are the most beautiful mint products to be released in recent years.
Like cockroaches the trolls are popping up everywhere again.
🥱🥱🥱
I must be immune, not seeing them or looking for them either.
A number of threads mocking your OFFICIAL thread titles and mine. Does not bother me one bit. I am immune as well.
Unfortunately too many posters spending more time complaining about other peoples posts that posting helpful or useful information. Making up absurd hypotheticals for something to complain about. Another "Freedom of Speech" excuse.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
Like cockroaches the trolls are popping up everywhere again.
🥱🥱🥱
I must be immune, not seeing them or looking for them either.
A number of threads mocking your OFFICIAL thread titles and mine. Does not bother me one bit. I am immune as well.
Unfortunately too many posters spending more time complaining about other peoples posts that posting helpful or useful information. Making up absurd hypotheticals for something to complain about. Another "Freedom of Speech" excuse.
I like the "official" threads for consolidating discussions around a current topic. But it is getting out of control with people launching them for every conceivable year and type.
Sent in the only perfect Morgan I received, along with a Peace out of four sets from the Mint to get TrueView's. I looked at these very carefully with 5X loupe. IMO these were 70's when I mailed them. Both came back 69, proving again that these should be purchased already graded.
Now look at the very obvious scratches on the cheek. These were NOT on the coin when I sent it in. Three graders opening the flip and handling the coin, and another taking a photo after they had their way with it.
Just really sad as that coin is now ruined. Further proof, never send in a reverse proof. The slightest dust particle that lands on the coin or is on a table, will scratch the shiny finish when it is slid back into the flip during grading. Over 1,000 PR69 First strikes and climbing.
@Goldminers
Did you take pictures prior to submitting? If not, could recommend in the future. That scratch looks fairly deep, a picture would defiantly prove liability.
For this set, I did not want them to be slabbed.
"proving again that these should be purchased already graded".
@Goldminers said:
Sent in the only perfect Morgan I received, along with a Peace out of four sets from the Mint to get TrueView's. I looked at these very carefully with 5X loupe. IMO these were 70's when I mailed them. Both came back 69, proving again that these should be purchased already graded.
Now look at the very obvious scratches on the cheek. These were NOT on the coin when I sent it in. Three graders opening the flip and handling the coin, and another taking a photo after they had their way with it.
Just really sad as that coin is now ruined. Further proof, never send in a reverse proof. The slightest dust particle that lands on the coin or is on a table, will scratch the shiny finish when it is slid back into the flip during grading. Over 1,000 PR69 First strikes and climbing.
I never even considered that could happen. Doesn't PCGS recognize this type of mishandling or is it part and parcel to grading RP's ?
Sorry for your beautiful coin.
BTW, did you submit the coins in the Mint capsules?
Obviously, I should have taken a very good photo first. I took it out of the capsule to fully inspect it, and to be sure it was not damaged when removed, as I have done this for many hundreds of coins. I used a new flip that was from the PCGS store. I also hold the flip and squeeze it open a bit first, so the coin does not really hit or slide on the plastic going in except on the edges. No telling what happens when it gets looked at later.
I did have a gold commemorative that also received a new scratch once about 3 years ago, and I did have a photo. PCGS was kind enough to replace that item for me when they investigated. So yes, this can happen, but it is not common.
@Joe_360 said: @Goldminers
Did you take pictures prior to submitting? If not, could recommend in the future. That scratch looks fairly deep, a picture would defiantly prove liability.
For this set, I did not want them to be slabbed.
"proving again that these should be purchased already graded".
I do believe PCGS T&C state that they are not responsible for any damage caused removing coins from holders:
PCGS shall have no liability whatsoever to Customer, or any third party for whom
Customer may be acting, for (i) any personal injury or (ii) for any damage to any
coin, or otherwise, that Customer is unable to demonstrate was attributable
primarily to an act or omission to act by PCGS while the coin was in its possession
and control, except for any damage to a coin resulting from the breaking open by
PCGS of a PCGS or other coin holder in which the coin may have been submitted for
grading to PCGS. PCGS shall not be liable under any circumstances to the Customer
or any third party for any indirect or consequential loss of profit or other economic
loss suffered by the Customer howsoever caused, as a result of any negligence,
breach of contract, misrepresentation, or otherwise.
@ProofCollection said:
I do believe PCGS T&C state that they are not responsible for any damage caused removing coins from holders:
PCGS shall have no liability whatsoever to Customer, or any third party for whom
Customer may be acting, for (i) any personal injury or (ii) for any damage to any
coin, or otherwise, that Customer is unable to demonstrate was attributable
primarily to an act or omission to act by PCGS while the coin was in its possession
and control, except for any damage to a coin resulting from the breaking open by
PCGS of a PCGS or other coin holder in which the coin may have been submitted for
grading to PCGS. PCGS shall not be liable under any circumstances to the Customer
or any third party for any indirect or consequential loss of profit or other economic
loss suffered by the Customer howsoever caused, as a result of any negligence,
breach of contract, misrepresentation, or otherwise.
Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer.
That said, I think that PCGS is referring to hard plastic holders, not flips, in this clause. Note the use of "breaking open".
@ProofCollection said:
I do believe PCGS T&C state that they are not responsible for any damage caused removing coins from holders:
PCGS shall have no liability whatsoever to Customer, or any third party for whom
Customer may be acting, for (i) any personal injury or (ii) for any damage to any
coin, or otherwise, that Customer is unable to demonstrate was attributable
primarily to an act or omission to act by PCGS while the coin was in its possession
and control, except for any damage to a coin resulting from the breaking open by
PCGS of a PCGS or other coin holder in which the coin may have been submitted for
grading to PCGS. PCGS shall not be liable under any circumstances to the Customer
or any third party for any indirect or consequential loss of profit or other economic
loss suffered by the Customer howsoever caused, as a result of any negligence,
breach of contract, misrepresentation, or otherwise.
Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer.
That said, I think that PCGS is referring to hard plastic holders, not flips, in this clause. Note the use of "breaking open".
Edited for a typo.
Doesn't that say that they WILL be liable for damage from cracking slabs. It's a bit of a double negative, but it says they won't be liable unless the customer can prove negligence EXCEPT for damage from cracking PCGS or other slabs. In other words, any damage on a coin previously slabbed does not require customer proof, otherwise it is up to the customer to prove the damage occurred at PCGS.
@ProofCollection said:
I do believe PCGS T&C state that they are not responsible for any damage caused removing coins from holders:
PCGS shall have no liability whatsoever to Customer, or any third party for whom
Customer may be acting, for (i) any personal injury or (ii) for any damage to any
coin, or otherwise, that Customer is unable to demonstrate was attributable
primarily to an act or omission to act by PCGS while the coin was in its possession
and control, except for any damage to a coin resulting from the breaking open by
PCGS of a PCGS or other coin holder in which the coin may have been submitted for
grading to PCGS. PCGS shall not be liable under any circumstances to the Customer
or any third party for any indirect or consequential loss of profit or other economic
loss suffered by the Customer howsoever caused, as a result of any negligence,
breach of contract, misrepresentation, or otherwise.
Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer.
That said, I think that PCGS is referring to hard plastic holders, not flips, in this clause. Note the use of "breaking open".
Edited for a typo.
Doesn't that say that they WILL be liable for damage from cracking slabs. It's a bit of a double negative, but it says they won't be liable unless the customer can prove negligence EXCEPT for damage from cracking PCGS or other slabs. In other words, any damage on a coin previously slabbed does not require customer proof, otherwise it is up to the customer to prove the damage occurred at PCGS.
@Goldminers submitted in flips. My last post was intended to suggest that the "holder" clause was irrelevant in this case, because no "holders" were involved.
FWIW, upon closer review of the entire sentence, I agree with your interpretation. Thanks for your thoroughness.
@ProofCollection said:
I do believe PCGS T&C state that they are not responsible for any damage caused removing coins from holders:
PCGS shall have no liability whatsoever to Customer, or any third party for whom
Customer may be acting, for (i) any personal injury or (ii) for any damage to any
coin, or otherwise, that Customer is unable to demonstrate was attributable
primarily to an act or omission to act by PCGS while the coin was in its possession
and control, except for any damage to a coin resulting from the breaking open by
PCGS of a PCGS **or other coin holder in which the coin may have been submitted for
grading to PCGS.** PCGS shall not be liable under any circumstances to the Customer
or any third party for any indirect or consequential loss of profit or other economic
loss suffered by the Customer howsoever caused, as a result of any negligence,
breach of contract, misrepresentation, or otherwise.
Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer.
That said, I think that PCGS is referring to hard plastic holders, not flips, in this clause. Note the use of "breaking open".
Edited for a typo.
This clause is the main reason that I remove the coins from the mint holders (capsules) myself and put them into the flips per their grading submission instructions.
That said, I think that PCGS is referring to hard plastic holders, not flips, in this clause. Note the use of "breaking open".
Edited for a typo.
This clause is the main reason that I remove the coins from the mint holders (capsules) myself and put them into the flips per their grading submission instructions.
I recognize that Mint capsules can be characterized as holders. That said, I am not positive that Mint capsules are considered "holders" for the purposes of the T&C.
Additionally, while I am not a lawyer, I interpret the "holder" clause the same way as @jmlanzaf. Namely, that PCGS IS liable for damage that results from "breaking open" a "holder".
I just sent an e-mail to PCGS about this issue. 'If/when' they respond, I will post the information in this thread.
SHIPPING INSTRUCTIONS:
House your coins individually in 2 ½" x 2 ½" mylar flips (we do not accept acrylic snap cases or cardboard and stapled coin holders). Place the coin in the inside front pouch of the flip so the openings of the flip are not exposed. PCGS highly recommends you use mylar flips when submitting your coins for grading. The inert mylar flips will be a better storage unit for your coins while they are in the grading process here at PCGS.
Product Details
These coin capsules are made of acrylic and contain no PVC to damage your coins. These capsules are hard, crystal clear, and consist of two pieces that snap together to provide long-term protection for your entire collection. There are also snap together 2x2's.
However, obviously PCGS does accept coins in unopened mint boxes, so they do open capsules, but are they liable if they scratch the coin when they do remove it? Maybe, maybe not. Only if you can prove it and they agree.
That said, I think that PCGS is referring to hard plastic holders, not flips, in this clause. Note the use of "breaking open".
Edited for a typo.
This clause is the main reason that I remove the coins from the mint holders (capsules) myself and put them into the flips per their grading submission instructions.
I recognize that Mint capsules can be characterized as holders. That said, I am not positive that Mint capsules are considered "holders" for the purposes of the T&C.
Additionally, while I am not a lawyer, I interpret the "holder" clause the same way as @jmlanzaf. Namely, that PCGS IS liable for damage that results from "breaking open" a "holder".
I just sent an e-mail to PCGS about this issue. 'If/when' they respond, I will post the information in this thread.
It is a little ambiguous as to "holder" but I read it as you do. It only makes sense in the context of a previously graded coin, to my thinking. For a generic holder, I would assume they would still want proof that the damage happened there.
@Goldminers said:
These are the submission instructions.
SHIPPING INSTRUCTIONS:
House your coins individually in 2 ½" x 2 ½" mylar flips (we do not accept acrylic snap cases or cardboard and stapled coin holders). Place the coin in the inside front pouch of the flip so the openings of the flip are not exposed. PCGS highly recommends you use mylar flips when submitting your coins for grading. The inert mylar flips will be a better storage unit for your coins while they are in the grading process here at PCGS.
Product Details
These coin capsules are made of acrylic and contain no PVC to damage your coins. These capsules are hard, crystal clear, and consist of two pieces that snap together to provide long-term protection for your entire collection. There are also snap together 2x2's.
However, obviously PCGS does accept coins in unopened mint boxes, so they do open capsules, but are they liable if they scratch the coin when they do remove it? Maybe, maybe not. Only if you can prove it and they agree.
Not disputing the written submission instructions (i.e., PCGS highly recommends flips). That said, I have been told by multiple CS reps that Mint capsules are also acceptable. FWIW, I specifically asked about this in my 12/12/23 e-inquiry. Reply TBD.
In terms of experience, I have made numerous submission in capsules, sealed box and coin-in-capsule, without an issue. I actually prefer this option for Mint releases, because it lowers the probability of damage due to my (clumsy) handling.
On the issue of accidental damage during capsule opening, I agree with your point. Coin-in-capsule submissions (from an opened Mint box), would likely require proof, assuming PCGS didn't proactively accept responsibility. Unopened Mint boxes would rely solely upon PCGS to acknowledge any accidental damage during opening, because no "before" photos are possible.
Either way, it's my opinion that they (PCGS) are less likely to damage a coin taking it out of a capsule than I am, as I don't do it nearly as often as they do.
@ProofCollection said:
Either way, it's my opinion that they (PCGS) are less likely to damage a coin taking it out of a capsule than I am, as I don't do it nearly as often as they do.
Idk. Based on the number of people claiming that PCGS fingerprinted their coins, I'm not sure you could be clumsier.
@Goldminers said:
These are the submission instructions.
SHIPPING INSTRUCTIONS:
House your coins individually in 2 ½" x 2 ½" mylar flips (we do not accept acrylic snap cases or cardboard and stapled coin holders). Place the coin in the inside front pouch of the flip so the openings of the flip are not exposed. PCGS highly recommends you use mylar flips when submitting your coins for grading. The inert mylar flips will be a better storage unit for your coins while they are in the grading process here at PCGS.
Product Details
These coin capsules are made of acrylic and contain no PVC to damage your coins. These capsules are hard, crystal clear, and consist of two pieces that snap together to provide long-term protection for your entire collection. There are also snap together 2x2's.
However, obviously PCGS does accept coins in unopened mint boxes, so they do open capsules, but are they liable if they scratch the coin when they do remove it? Maybe, maybe not. Only if you can prove it and they agree.
They take mine all of the time at shows that are in the OGP capsule. They just put the capsule with the coin secured inside into the 2.5x2.5 flip and submit them. I haven’t had any damage that I can see as I look over the coin when I am sitting with the rep.
I have sent in many coins in for grading in capsules especially the 2.5-ounce ATB coins and medals. I did not ever mean to imply PCGS won't take them, in spite of their flippy instructions.
However, a lot of times I do take the coins out and put them into flips to remove one handling variable. Do coins get damaged removing them from capsules or flips, grading them, taking photos of them, then actually inserting them into the plastic rings and then the slabs? It can happen anywhere along the process. My only point was that my reverse proof was damaged and IMO they can be easily damaged if the shiny, somewhat high relief is exposed to handling.
I have sent in 1,000's of coins for grading just about every way possible with almost no problems at all, but that Morgan was blatant damage. Maybe I should have left it in the capsule, or never sent it in at all, but the bottom line is I am stuck with a crappy 69 and am not too happy about it.
The ONLY modern coin I ever sent into PCGS in a flip (removed from US Mint capsule) was a 75th Anniversary gold privy coin I got lucky to get from the US Mint. Well, getting it out of the capsule, I was so nervous I accidently fumbled it and got a finger print on the obverse proof field of the coin. These were selling for about $8k at the time. I ended up sending it in for conservation to remove the fingerprint. It graded 69 and I will never send in another modern coin in a flip, just the original US Mint coin capsule. Every time I look at it I wonder if I missed a shot at a 70 due to my error.
The only reason I removed it in the first place was I thought I would be so much more careful than PCGS!
Sent in the only perfect Morgan I received, along with a Peace out of four sets from the Mint to get TrueView's. I looked at these very carefully with 5X loupe. IMO these were 70's when I mailed them. Both came back 69, proving again that these should be purchased already graded.
Now look at the very obvious scratches on the cheek. These were NOT on the coin when I sent it in. Three graders opening the flip and handling the coin, and another taking a photo after they had their way with it.
Just really sad as that coin is now ruined. Further proof, never send in a reverse proof. The slightest dust particle that lands on the coin or is on a table, will scratch the shiny finish when it is slid back into the flip during grading. Over 1,000 PR69 First strikes and climbing.
Did you send in the capsule or remove it first and put in the flip? Sounds like you sent in the flip.
I won't do that on a Proof or Reverse Proof coin,,,,,, send in the capsule.
Edited: OK, I see this question was already answered,,,, sorry.
On eBay I Found a few pcgs pr70 reverse proofs for $117-125 each last night for Morgan or Peace. Only a few left from that seller. Morgan prices bumped up to $135 each this morning after a few were sold. I was shocked to see pr70 Morgan up for $125
Happy Thursday folks.
Edit to add: gilscoinsnstuff is the seller. They have some very fair prices
TV coin shows/dealers are starting to separate the pair and selling as individual items, with the Morgan's starting to command a higher price, both at PR70.
Comments
But going with the logic that people generally don't buy something today if they think it will cost less tomorrow, coins are purchased with the expectation of holding or increasing in value. So just because what you say is true in general, it doesn't mean that it will happen with these Rev Proof coins and doesn't mean people don't buy them as investments (no matter how poor the investment actually is). I can (and I''m sure you can as well) provide several examples of modern issues that have increased considerably in value and if you look at those the 70's outperform the 69's. And people also like the idea of owning a perfect coin (or at least the best grade).
Its always going to come down to demand. You did well if you bought PCGS 70s ASE from '86 on.
The Mint can squash demand easily and they probably will with oversupply. I would tread carefully if you think demand will puah values upward down the road on most issues.
Don’t forget potential spotting in all grades! 70 on down…
That is the real value killer. As others say, further to fall.
You are correct. Many people (incorrectly) buy them expecting them to increase in value. It's also why people buy Beanie babies and Hess trucks.
As I said, if you want a 70, buy a 70. If you want a pretty coin, buy a 69 or raw. You probably won't notice the difference and you'll save a ton of money.
Proofs grading MS?
Sorry. Proof 69 and 70.
Hmmmm….
Too low IMO
they're paying $5 more than their initial RP offer
Let me know if you're paying more. I'm not. That's roughly Greysheet bid which is the going wholesale price.
Can you say flipping has been “flipped”🤑🤑🤑
@alohagary has been paying solid prices for the 2021 dollars for several months on the BST.
Got my PCGS PR70 set today. Beautiful coins. Can't stop looking at them.
These coins are absolutely gorgeous. I got 3 70s for peace and 3 69s for Morgans. Seems like the 70s grade for the morgans are low. Wonder if we will have a repeat of the 2021-D Coins with low % of 70 grades on the 2023 morgans.
FYI -in eBay auctions some of the PCGS 70 RP sets are now selling in the 270-300 range. Lowest has been 261
After paying $185 issue price plus grading fees plus selling fees, isn’t this still a loss?
Not for bulk submitters.
For retail customers, you probably need to be close to 300 to break even.
Not taking into account the cost of 69s( or worse) , eBay store fees, capital costs , labor costs or cost of postage from PCGS to dealer (and assuming big orders shipped from mint to PCGS so maybe more postage costs ?)
$300 set off eBay
Bulk sub FS $32 per coin = $64 (this is for 100 coin submissions - probably lower for really big submissions ?)
Postage to buyer $5
7.25% eBay fees $22
Cost coins $185
$24 profit on a FS 70 set to help cover all the costs listed above
I never expect to make money off of these sorts of things, but I also don’t enjoy losing money right out of the gate.
Had to check drfish haha. Assuming PR70...for only 1 coin in consideration of the 2
$92.50 per Coin ($185 each right?)
$17 Modern Grading Services
$18 First Strike Grading Services
$5.33 Shipping Fees ($32/6 3 coin set for me)
$1.67 Handling Fee ($10/6 3 coin set for me)
$4.33 Shipping to PCGS ($26/6 3 coin set for me)
eBay Pricing around $179ish currently
eBay Fees
Profit: $13.64 per coin. So about $27.28 ish per set.
drfish is pretty dead on!
I would have thought the Mint would have put up some of the return inventory by now.
There is a very small return window of 7 days once you have received your order, so I have to assume virtually all returns have been made.
Does it take that long to visually inspect these coins?
Will they wait until all coins have been inspected?
.......or, will they never offer them again?
What do you think?
More should come available but the numbers will likely be small. Many are saved as sealed sets and some of the returns are not saleable.
I just received my PCGS 70 set from James Sego (segoja on eBay) and they are beautiful. An added bonus is the PCGS slabs fit perfectly into the OGP. These are the most beautiful mint products to be released in recent years.
Goldbully,
Like cockroaches the trolls are popping up everywhere again.
🥱🥱🥱
I must be immune, not seeing them or looking for them either.
A number of threads mocking your OFFICIAL thread titles and mine. Does not bother me one bit. I am immune as well.
Unfortunately too many posters spending more time complaining about other peoples posts that posting helpful or useful information. Making up absurd hypotheticals for something to complain about. Another "Freedom of Speech" excuse.
I like the "official" threads for consolidating discussions around a current topic. But it is getting out of control with people launching them for every conceivable year and type.
I miss @backroadjunkie. His threads were truly "official".
Sent in the only perfect Morgan I received, along with a Peace out of four sets from the Mint to get TrueView's. I looked at these very carefully with 5X loupe. IMO these were 70's when I mailed them. Both came back 69, proving again that these should be purchased already graded.
Now look at the very obvious scratches on the cheek. These were NOT on the coin when I sent it in. Three graders opening the flip and handling the coin, and another taking a photo after they had their way with it.
Just really sad as that coin is now ruined. Further proof, never send in a reverse proof. The slightest dust particle that lands on the coin or is on a table, will scratch the shiny finish when it is slid back into the flip during grading. Over 1,000 PR69 First strikes and climbing.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
@Goldminers
Did you take pictures prior to submitting? If not, could recommend in the future. That scratch looks fairly deep, a picture would defiantly prove liability.
For this set, I did not want them to be slabbed.
"proving again that these should be purchased already graded".
I never even considered that could happen. Doesn't PCGS recognize this type of mishandling or is it part and parcel to grading RP's ?
Sorry for your beautiful coin.
BTW, did you submit the coins in the Mint capsules?
Obviously, I should have taken a very good photo first. I took it out of the capsule to fully inspect it, and to be sure it was not damaged when removed, as I have done this for many hundreds of coins. I used a new flip that was from the PCGS store. I also hold the flip and squeeze it open a bit first, so the coin does not really hit or slide on the plastic going in except on the edges. No telling what happens when it gets looked at later.
I did have a gold commemorative that also received a new scratch once about 3 years ago, and I did have a photo. PCGS was kind enough to replace that item for me when they investigated. So yes, this can happen, but it is not common.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
I do believe PCGS T&C state that they are not responsible for any damage caused removing coins from holders:
Customer may be acting, for (i) any personal injury or (ii) for any damage to any
coin, or otherwise, that Customer is unable to demonstrate was attributable
primarily to an act or omission to act by PCGS while the coin was in its possession
and control, except for any damage to a coin resulting from the breaking open by
PCGS of a PCGS or other coin holder in which the coin may have been submitted for
grading to PCGS. PCGS shall not be liable under any circumstances to the Customer
or any third party for any indirect or consequential loss of profit or other economic
loss suffered by the Customer howsoever caused, as a result of any negligence,
breach of contract, misrepresentation, or otherwise.
Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer.
That said, I think that PCGS is referring to hard plastic holders, not flips, in this clause. Note the use of "breaking open".
Edited for a typo.
Pops as of December 12, 2023.....................
72.7% First Strike PR70
Was 75.5% 12/3/23
First PR66 graded......not sure how even a newbie wouldn't have seen the problems on that coin.
90.5% First Strike PR70
Was 91.4% on 12/3/23
First PR67 graded.
Doesn't that say that they WILL be liable for damage from cracking slabs. It's a bit of a double negative, but it says they won't be liable unless the customer can prove negligence EXCEPT for damage from cracking PCGS or other slabs. In other words, any damage on a coin previously slabbed does not require customer proof, otherwise it is up to the customer to prove the damage occurred at PCGS.
@Goldminers submitted in flips. My last post was intended to suggest that the "holder" clause was irrelevant in this case, because no "holders" were involved.
FWIW, upon closer review of the entire sentence, I agree with your interpretation. Thanks for your thoroughness.
This clause is the main reason that I remove the coins from the mint holders (capsules) myself and put them into the flips per their grading submission instructions.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
I recognize that Mint capsules can be characterized as holders. That said, I am not positive that Mint capsules are considered "holders" for the purposes of the T&C.
Additionally, while I am not a lawyer, I interpret the "holder" clause the same way as @jmlanzaf. Namely, that PCGS IS liable for damage that results from "breaking open" a "holder".
I just sent an e-mail to PCGS about this issue. 'If/when' they respond, I will post the information in this thread.
Edited to Add:
PCGS responded to my inquiry.
Link: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13637464/#Comment_13637464
These are the submission instructions.
SHIPPING INSTRUCTIONS:
House your coins individually in 2 ½" x 2 ½" mylar flips (we do not accept acrylic snap cases or cardboard and stapled coin holders). Place the coin in the inside front pouch of the flip so the openings of the flip are not exposed. PCGS highly recommends you use mylar flips when submitting your coins for grading. The inert mylar flips will be a better storage unit for your coins while they are in the grading process here at PCGS.
Product Details
These coin capsules are made of acrylic and contain no PVC to damage your coins. These capsules are hard, crystal clear, and consist of two pieces that snap together to provide long-term protection for your entire collection. There are also snap together 2x2's.
However, obviously PCGS does accept coins in unopened mint boxes, so they do open capsules, but are they liable if they scratch the coin when they do remove it? Maybe, maybe not. Only if you can prove it and they agree.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
It is a little ambiguous as to "holder" but I read it as you do. It only makes sense in the context of a previously graded coin, to my thinking. For a generic holder, I would assume they would still want proof that the damage happened there.
Not disputing the written submission instructions (i.e., PCGS highly recommends flips). That said, I have been told by multiple CS reps that Mint capsules are also acceptable. FWIW, I specifically asked about this in my 12/12/23 e-inquiry. Reply TBD.
In terms of experience, I have made numerous submission in capsules, sealed box and coin-in-capsule, without an issue. I actually prefer this option for Mint releases, because it lowers the probability of damage due to my (clumsy) handling.
On the issue of accidental damage during capsule opening, I agree with your point. Coin-in-capsule submissions (from an opened Mint box), would likely require proof, assuming PCGS didn't proactively accept responsibility. Unopened Mint boxes would rely solely upon PCGS to acknowledge any accidental damage during opening, because no "before" photos are possible.
Either way, it's my opinion that they (PCGS) are less likely to damage a coin taking it out of a capsule than I am, as I don't do it nearly as often as they do.
Idk. Based on the number of people claiming that PCGS fingerprinted their coins, I'm not sure you could be clumsier.
They take mine all of the time at shows that are in the OGP capsule. They just put the capsule with the coin secured inside into the 2.5x2.5 flip and submit them. I haven’t had any damage that I can see as I look over the coin when I am sitting with the rep.
I have sent in many coins in for grading in capsules especially the 2.5-ounce ATB coins and medals. I did not ever mean to imply PCGS won't take them, in spite of their flippy instructions.
However, a lot of times I do take the coins out and put them into flips to remove one handling variable. Do coins get damaged removing them from capsules or flips, grading them, taking photos of them, then actually inserting them into the plastic rings and then the slabs? It can happen anywhere along the process. My only point was that my reverse proof was damaged and IMO they can be easily damaged if the shiny, somewhat high relief is exposed to handling.
I have sent in 1,000's of coins for grading just about every way possible with almost no problems at all, but that Morgan was blatant damage. Maybe I should have left it in the capsule, or never sent it in at all, but the bottom line is I am stuck with a crappy 69 and am not too happy about it.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
The ONLY modern coin I ever sent into PCGS in a flip (removed from US Mint capsule) was a 75th Anniversary gold privy coin I got lucky to get from the US Mint. Well, getting it out of the capsule, I was so nervous I accidently fumbled it and got a finger print on the obverse proof field of the coin. These were selling for about $8k at the time. I ended up sending it in for conservation to remove the fingerprint. It graded 69 and I will never send in another modern coin in a flip, just the original US Mint coin capsule. Every time I look at it I wonder if I missed a shot at a 70 due to my error.
The only reason I removed it in the first place was I thought I would be so much more careful than PCGS!
Jessewvu, ouch!
That is the “Fingers Suck” award for the year; bummer, but you have a good attitude.
I’m> @Goldminers said:
Did you send in the capsule or remove it first and put in the flip? Sounds like you sent in the flip.
I won't do that on a Proof or Reverse Proof coin,,,,,, send in the capsule.
Edited: OK, I see this question was already answered,,,, sorry.
On eBay I Found a few pcgs pr70 reverse proofs for $117-125 each last night for Morgan or Peace. Only a few left from that seller. Morgan prices bumped up to $135 each this morning after a few were sold. I was shocked to see pr70 Morgan up for $125
Happy Thursday folks.
Edit to add: gilscoinsnstuff is the seller. They have some very fair prices
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
TV coin shows/dealers are starting to separate the pair and selling as individual items, with the Morgan's starting to command a higher price, both at PR70.
And the downward trend for RP FS Morgans continues.
71.6% First Strike PR70
was 72.7% 12/12/2023
90% First Strike PR70
was 90.5% 12/12/2023