PCGS and CAC Grading services.. Question intended to create a lively discussion.

Coin Finder

I'm always humbled by the knowledge found on this board and the real intelligence of the coin market by many of the posters here. I'm not one of them! But I have some concerns and some questions about third party grading in general.

Is it possible that with now three "top tier" grading services ( assuming CAC will be one of course ) the coin market will become diluted and confusing to some? Meaning they wont know what to buy so they might not buy at all.

Will it improved grading at all services or will it just make it more difficult to price coins and sell them.? Will there by three columns on the graysheet?

How will we know we are getting a good deal with so many choices....

Will CAC do details, genuine, star, and plus slabs?

I have always liked it when 4 PCGS graders and then 4 CAC graders look at my coin that I bought raw (and submitted) and I get a good grade and then a sticker! I feel like I picked a good one that four pros agree with me.

Will PCGS sticker CAC Coins?

Curious what you think the future holds.. Thanks

edwardjulio

Those that have followed the announcements from CAC know the names of the grading team at CAC. I have no idea who the team is at PCGS or NGC. IMO, "the future is so bright you may need sunglasses."

Mr_Spud

Back when ANACS was more popular people lived with there being 3 main grading companies and people used to use them for slightly different purposes.

jmlanzaf

@Mr_Spud said:
Back when ANACS was more popular people lived with there being 3 main grading companies and people used to use them for slightly different purposes.

At one time PCI and ICG also appeared on the greysheet as a percentage of NGC/PCGS.

The market will quickly sort things out.

shish

With only two major players I believe that competition is good for consumers. Some of your questions highlight how important it is to educate ourselves so we can build confidence and make wise decisions. Although it can be very helpful to get multiple opinions rather than focusing on the number of graders that viewed a coin I suggest focusing on the quality of the graders. Quality trumps quantity in this case.

Ppp

This is my opinion and I know I am in the minority.

From a marketing/business perspective it was brilliant how cac positioned their services from an ad on to now a grading company. Full disclosure I have written before I do not support cac stickers because I do see the need for that service (again I know I am in the minority). I make up my own mind on a graded coin from pcgs and ngc depending on eye appeal and price I don’t need another opinion which is what I view cac currently to be.

If cac maintains their standards then one could assume they would be considered the top tier grading company above pcgs and ngc.
Think about it, if the market would rather have, as example, a pcgs/ngc with a cac sticker than not, therefore a straight grade, say ms65, from cac would be better than a straight grade ms65 from pcgs/ngc because the grade would not be equivalent amongst all three.

When cac starts grading then I can foresee myself becoming a supporter for their services.

winesteven

@thebigeng , to answer SOME of your questions:

1. Yes, with something new there is always some confusion. In my opinion, collectors will absolutely still buy.
2. CAC will do details grading.
3. CAC will NOT do Star grading.
4. CAC WILL do plus grading. These will come from three separate sources: a) Coins currently in NGC and PCGS holders with CAC stickers are either “A” coins (very high end for the grade), or “B” coins (solid for the grade, but not “high end”). We don’t know if our stickered coins are A or B, but when submitted to CAC Grading for crossover, if your coin is an A coin, it will get a plus grade; b) Coins that had previously been submitted to CAC for a sticker but failed only because they deemed it “lower end” for the grade, otherwise referred to as a “C” coin, but otherwise defect-free, when submitted to CAC Grading to cross, will very likely be moved down one grade lower but with a plus. Some will be moved down a grade without a plus; c) Coins submitted raw, or in holders that CAC has not seen, will be graded, and coins that CAC Grading deems high end for the grade they assign will also get a plus grade.
5. I think the future is bright for our wonderful hobby. CAC will also be establishing two separate Registries.

Steve

derryb

If nothing else additional competition is a plus for the customer. While both NGC and PCGS offer quality grading their weak areas such as turnaround time will likely be adressed and improved in their fight for your coins. I am sure both are already working on improvements/changes/incentives to both keep exsting customers and attract new customers.

Collectors will develop their own top 10 list of grading companies. Where CAC will rank is not as important as the role they will play in bringing excitement and improvement to the submission process. I currently limit my collection to both NGC and PCGS graded coins. I look forward to adding CAC graded coins. I am not one to resubmit just to change holders.

ricko

It will be interesting to watch the market developments. I have no doubt CAC will succeed. JA's track record speaks clearly. His entry into the market with CAC fourth party approval was masterful. The evolution into a full blown grading service, a business coup de grace. Cheers, RickO

Desert Moon

My questions about details vs. straight grades have been answered on the CAC Boards and JA interviews. His grading standards are not going to go down to slab, so I am all in. I will be sending many slabs to CAC for crossover once members can submit. It is all about the surfaces and quality, and CAC is the best at that.

Best, SH

291fifth

@Mr_Spud said:
Back when ANACS was more popular people lived with there being 3 main grading companies and people used to use them for slightly different purposes.

ANACS was never popular when it came to the more expensive coins. There seems to be urban legend in the market that ANACS was once on par with the two top third party graders.

derryb

Actual turnaround times and fees for all three once CAC makes its debut will be a big factor on "who gets my coins."

PeakRarities

Seems like most of your questions were answered. I am in agreement that this is good for the hobby, competition amongst services has always benefited the consumer. CAC stickered coins have already begun selling at more of a premium over unstickered counterparts since the announcement was made, if that tells you anything.

gtstang

1. Who's going to send their already graded pcgs coins to cac?
2. Who's going to send their raw, ngc, anacs... to cac when they need said coins for the registry?
3. How much emphasis will registry sets play into the new cac venture success/failure ?
4. Will pcgs allow cac coins into their registry?
5. How much more will the cac grading push ngc further out the back door towards the pasture?
6. Will pcgs registry matter in the future when cac has their own and allows all grading services in?

PeakRarities

@gtstang said:
1. Who's going to send their already graded pcgs coins to cac?
2. Who's going to send their raw, ngc, anacs... to cac when they need said coins for the registry?
3. How much emphasis will registry sets play into the new cac venture success/failure ?
4. Will pcgs allow cac coins into their registry?
5. How much more will the cac grading push ngc further out the back door towards the pasture?
6. Will pcgs registry matter in the future when cac has their own and allows all grading services in?

Imo,

1. Collectors who like to know whether or not they have a problem free "c" coin, or a coin with questionable surfaces that may have previously failed to sticker. Also, anyone with a stickered coin that wants to know I its an "A" or "B" coin, now that they will be identified. Other than that, depends on how the market reacts and the premiums vs PCGS slabbed coins
2. Depends which registry they are taking part in.
3. Only time will tell
4. Unknown, but I would count on it anytime soon.
5. Probably pretty far
6. There's still many collectors who haven't embraced CAC, I don't think the PCGS registry will fade anytime soon but all we can do is speculate

WAYNEAS

I always welcome competition.

I believe it will strengthen the industry by improving the quality of areas that some consider weak and are in need of improvement.

Hopefully the new CAC grading service will bring lower costs (by all) in having a coin graded.

I am a die heart PCGS collector as 99% of my slabs are graded by them.

I will wait and see on how CAC's grading will affect the market but do believe they will succeed rather quickly.

Would I buy one, yes.
It would have to be a specialty coin as putting another registry set together would limit my funds even more.

Wayne

Cougar1978

It will be interesting on how things shake out for the CAC TPG. Exciting times. My inventory mainly PCGS / NGC with some ANACS, ICG (I occasionally buy combo deals). I do both coins and currency both graded and raw. (US & World). Setup at shows there to move it even if low margin all can get.

I will be staying with PCGS - TPG preference plus submission (submit both coins & currency) for several reasons especially for my business synergy. Observation: At many (small) shows people in the bourse room at shows are not as knowledgeable about the holder or sticker thing nor care plus many go for mods, world, currency. In addition many are doing good have $300 on them coming in the door.

On this forum (US Coin Forum) I see a lot about the holder / sticker situation. One observation - Many posters here are very well off (wealthy) players, they are into CAC perhaps highly invested, many highly specialized, highly involved in holder crossing, very opinionated, and spend lots of money on really big ticket material (especially stickered, more expensive). Many don’t seem very aware of the impact of the atmosphere on coins over time (coins going bad in holder from oxidation, heat, salt air, humidity, biological attack).

Current unknowns - will eBay accept CAC as a TPG (like the other 4), how many CAC holdered coins on eBay by 06/30/23, how will the CAC holdered coins be price wise in the marketplace (auc, eBay, shows), how will a possible coming recession affect the market, how will CAC TPG grading fees compare with other TPG’s, will I be offered CAC TPG material off the bourse (buy deals)?

BAJJERFAN

@Mr_Spud said:
Back when ANACS was more popular people lived with there being 3 main grading companies and people used to use them for slightly different purposes.

When their service was inexpensive one could use them to "screen" coins to send to PCGS.

lilolme

@Cougar1978 said:

Only here (US Coin Forum) do I see all this about the holder / sticker game.

>
.
I don't know about the 'only' part but sure appears to be emphasized. At the Baltimore show I only remember CAC coming up twice and it was short lived, about 30 seconds. I was there for 3 days also and not 3 hours, so just didn't hear much on it. Just keeps going - like this new thread on it. Yes, I know I don't have to open them and mostly don't now.

skier07

I see no reason to send a PCGS coin that didn’t sticker to CAC at least short term. There are three possible scenarios. It crosses at the same grade which is very unlikely, it crosses at a lower grade, or it doesn’t cross at all. Unless the price of a CAC coin one grade lower is the same as a higher graded PCGS coin it seems like a waste of time and money. The market will eventually become efficient and we’ll have a much better idea.

BryceM

For perspective, in the last 30 days PCGS reports that they have graded almost a quarter million coins (214,434).

I highly doubt CAC will operate on that scale. Some of their services and business models will overlap, but many will not.

In the higher-end, classic US Federal market there will be significant overlap, but it would be a mistake to equate the two businesses.

BAJJERFAN

@BryceM said:
For perspective, in the last 30 days PCGS reports that they have graded almost a quarter million coins (214,434).

I highly doubt CAC will operate on that scale. Some of their services and business models will overlap, but many will not.

In the higher-end, classic US Federal market there will be significant overlap, but it would be a mistake to equate the two businesses.

I wonder how many of those 214,000 are current Mint coins. Do they even have a finalizer for those?

DollarAfterDollar

Beat me to it. I'd bet 200,000 of the 214,000 are modern junk that's easy to grade.

As far as CAC finding their nitch, I think they will be equal to or slightly exceed the current TPG. Their reputation is to be pickier. I'm curious if they will even bother with coins they don't currently review. That interests me.

Elcontador

I'll let others on the forum and people I know in the business figure out the details. At that point, I'll decide how I will deal with it. Until then, I'm just a spectator.

coinbuf

@DollarAfterDollar said:
Beat me to it. I'd bet 200,000 of the 214,000 are modern junk that's easy to grade.

As far as CAC finding their nitch, I think they will be equal to or slightly exceed the current TPG. Their reputation is to be pickier. I'm curious if they will even bother with coins they don't currently review. That interests me.

Yes CACG has said that they will grade series that they currently do not sticker, coins like Jefferson nickels and such. Going beyond your question but in a similar vein, just today the new CAC operation manager responded to a question about bulk submissions on the CAC forum and said that CACG will be processing bulk grading submissions. From that forum:

Question: Do you see bulk grading being a significant part of CAC 2.0's operations?

Answer: Simply put yes - bulk grading will be a part of CAC Grading's operations.

I was somewhat surprised at that comment as I did not expect to see bulk grading as part of the plan.

MasonG

Adding another grading system into the mix will probably not help those who are not already good graders much. I mean- aside from having another option for where to send their coins to be graded by someone other than themselves.

blitzdude

I'll stick with PCGS. CACs is just another shiny object/falvour of the month outfit. RGDS!

neildrobertson

@Ppp said:
If cac maintains their standards then one could assume they would be considered the top tier grading company above pcgs and ngc.
Think about it, if the market would rather have, as example, a pcgs/ngc with a cac sticker than not, therefore a straight grade, say ms65, from cac would be better than a straight grade ms65 from pcgs/ngc because the grade would not be equivalent amongst all three.

When cac starts grading then I can foresee myself becoming a supporter for their services.

CAC has said they sticker coins that are strong for the grade (A or B out of A,B,C). They don't necessarily think coins that they do not sticker are incorrectly graded. There will be many coins that CAC would grade 65 that would not have stickered at 65. By definition, not every coin can be good for its grade. It should also be clear that when they do this, they will not be compromising on their standards.

Each grade is a spectrum. If you drop the lower portion of the grade down to the lower grade you will still be driving mid range coins in the lower grade into the low end of that grade. All you really accomplish is move the grading scale a half point away from the industry average.

The goal of any grading service should be accuracy and consistency. A conservative grading company is an inaccurate grading company.

MasonG

@neildrobertson said:
CAC has said they sticker coins that are strong for the grade (A or B out of A,B,C). They don't necessarily think coins that they do not sticker are incorrectly graded.

In the video linked to yesterday here (discussion about A, B and C at around 13:45):

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1083138/new-cac-holders-pictures-released#latest

JA says A coins should get a plus, B coins straight grade and C coins get one grade lower, or details. That sounds different than "they don't necessarily think coins that they do not sticker are incorrectly graded."

jmlanzaf

@MasonG said:

@neildrobertson said:
CAC has said they sticker coins that are strong for the grade (A or B out of A,B,C). They don't necessarily think coins that they do not sticker are incorrectly graded.

In the video linked to yesterday here (discussion about A, B and C at around 13:45):

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1083138/new-cac-holders-pictures-released#latest

JA says A coins should get a plus, B coins straight grade and C coins get one grade lower, or details. That sounds different than "they don't necessarily think coins that they do not sticker are incorrectly graded."

There's a certain marketing logic in the change in emphasis. When you are stickering other people's holders, you don't want or need to annoy the TPG's. When you are now a competitor of the same TPG's, you want the market to think their grading is inaccurate.

MasonG

@jmlanzaf said:
There's a certain marketing logic in the change in emphasis. When you are stickering other people's holders, you don't want or need to annoy the TPG's. When you are now a competitor of the same TPG's, you want the market to think their grading is inaccurate.

When you're creating a new grading system, their grading is pretty much guaranteed to be inaccurate in comparison, wouldn't you think?

pmh1nic

How many folks that currently have PCGS registry sets would send the entire set to CAC for crossing over?

Does the status of CAC provide the motivation to those that own the top 100 rarest coins, currently in PCGS or NGC holders, to submit them to CAC for crossing over?

If CAC isn't counting on crossovers being a major part of their business where do the coins of any value (enough value to justify the cost of submission) come from that would support a third major grading service?

I understand CAC as a 2nd set of eyes verifying a TPG grade but I'm not seeing the value in starting a new service that is now in direct competition with PCGS and NGC.

MFeld

@blitzdude said:
I'll stick with PCGS. CACs is just another shiny object/falvour of the month outfit. RGDS!

Fifteen years and counting is a pretty lengthy shine.

neildrobertson

@MasonG said:
JA says A coins should get a plus, B coins straight grade and C coins get one grade lower, or details. That sounds different than "they don't necessarily think coins that they do not sticker are incorrectly graded."

This is a departure from what they've said as a stickering company, but I can see the logic to it. I still expect slightly different results than what we've seen in their sticker-only evaluations.

neildrobertson

I feel like it might be just a matter of time before PCGS adopts the PCGS + CAC portions of their registry as that will effectively just be a CAC registry once they start grading.

MasonG

@neildrobertson said:
This is a departure from what they've said as a stickering company...

Yes. That's why I said they're creating a new grading system.

edited to add... There's no way for anybody to figure how existing grading systems will compare to a new one that hasn't been finalized yet.

winesteven

@WAYNEAS , one of the two new CAC Registries will allow your current PCGS holdered coins into it. The second Registry, more restrictive, WILL STILL ALLOW PCGS and NGC holdered coins into it, but in this second CAC registry, those holders must have CAC stickers.

Steve

winesteven

@pmh1nic said:
How many folks that currently have PCGS registry sets would send the entire set to CAC for crossing over?

Does the status of CAC provide the motivation to those that own the top 100 rarest coins, currently in PCGS or NGC holders, to submit them to CAC for crossing over?

If CAC isn't counting on crossovers being a major part of their business where do the coins of any value (enough value to justify the cost of submission) come from that would support a third major grading service?

I understand CAC as a 2nd set of eyes verifying a TPG grade but I'm not seeing the value in starting a new service that is now in direct competition with PCGS and NGC.

I’m a BIG CAC fan, but unless the PCGS Registry accepts CAC graded coins in the PCGS Registry, I won’t be crossing over. I can still partake in each of the two new CAC registries with my current PCGS holders. And even IF there comes a time when the PCGS registry accepts CAC graded holders in their registry, at that point I would send to CAC Grading only my PCGS coins in a whole grade without a plus, but with stickers, and restrict crossing only if it crosses at the same whole number WITH a plus. “A” coins with stickers are supposed to cross at a plus grade!

With that said, I think a TON of NGC holdered coins with CAC stickers WILL be submitted to CAC Grading for crossover, since they will AUTOMATICALLY be accepted by CAC Grading at the same grade (and possibly better). Coins with stickers in NGC holders (as well as PCGS holders) that happen to be “A” coins will cross at a plus grade for the whole grade number they now have!

Steve

skier07

@winesteven said:

@pmh1nic said:
How many folks that currently have PCGS registry sets would send the entire set to CAC for crossing over?

Does the status of CAC provide the motivation to those that own the top 100 rarest coins, currently in PCGS or NGC holders, to submit them to CAC for crossing over?

If CAC isn't counting on crossovers being a major part of their business where do the coins of any value (enough value to justify the cost of submission) come from that would support a third major grading service?

I understand CAC as a 2nd set of eyes verifying a TPG grade but I'm not seeing the value in starting a new service that is now in direct competition with PCGS and NGC.

I’m a BIG CAC fan, but unless the PCGS Registry accepts CAC graded coins in the PCGS Registry, I won’t be crossing over. I can still partake in each of the two new CAC registries with my current PCGS holders. And even IF there comes a time when the PCGS registry accepts CAC graded holders in their registry, at that point I would send to CAC Grading only my PCGS coins in a whole grade without a plus, but with stickers, and restrict crossing only if it crosses at the same whole number WITH a plus. “A” coins with stickers are supposed to cross at a plus grade!

With that said, I think a TON of NGC holdered coins with CAC stickers WILL be submitted to CAC Grading for crossover, since they will AUTOMATICALLY be accepted by CAC Grading at the same grade (and possibly better). Coins with stickers in NGC holders (as well as PCGS holders) that happen to be “A” coins will cross at a plus grade for the whole grade number they now have!

Steve

Why would PCGS allow CAC grading company coins into their registry? PCGS has nothing to gain unless I’m missing something.

shish

Why does PCGS currently allow CAC approved coins in their registry?

Perhaps they will allow CAC grading company coins in their registry if there is sufficient demand from their customers.

winesteven

@skier07 , I agree with you that I doubt PCGS will allow coins holdered by CAC into their Registry, just as they don’t allow NGC coins. That’s why my point is that I don’t expect to cross any of my coins, and I used capitalized and bold “IF”, since I really don’t expect it to happen.

Thanks.

Steve

winesteven

@shish said:
Why does PCGS currently allow CAC approved coins in their registry?

Perhaps they will allow CAC grading company coins in their registry if there is sufficient demand from their customers.

As I indicate just above, in my opinion I don’t think there will be that demand of PCGS to change their current position. CAC will have their own two sets of registries, with each set allowing for coins holdered by multiple TPG’s.

Steve

PerryHall

@shish said:
Why does PCGS currently allow CAC approved coins in their registry?

Does PCGS allow NGC CAC approved coins in their registry?

Maywood

The confidence for something that hasn't even begun, to the point of some speaking as though it already has based on a single announcement, is sort of staggering to me. I don't really think much will change in the coin market aside from new holders showing up in dealer cases. Customer loyalty and confidence will probably determine who sends what where.

WAYNEAS

@winesteven said:
@WAYNEAS , one of the two new CAC Registries will allow your current PCGS holdered coins into it. The second Registry, more restrictive, WILL STILL ALLOW PCGS and NGC holdered coins into it, but in this second CAC registry, those holders must have CAC stickers.

Steve

Thanks Steve for the added info as I was unaware of you being able to add an existing PCGS set to the CAC registry without going thru their grading service.
Wayne

yspsales

Deleted comment… not sure what I was saying

keoj

Just trying to clarify.
1) PCGS registry allows (and highlights) CAC coins in their registry
2) It is unclear or clear if PCGS will include a CAC'd holder coin in PCGS Registry?
3) The plan is that CAC will start their own registry (s) that would include CAC holder coins and PCGS/NGC holdered coins that have received the CAC "bean". Coins that have been "beaned" would automatically cross to a CAC holder if desired.

If that is the accepted grading equivalence, and #2 above happens (maybe?), then why doesn't an NGC coin that has been CAC certified also be allowed into PCGS registry as well?

Also, will CAC holder error coins? I may have missed that discussion.

Keoj

winesteven

@keoj said:
Just trying to clarify.
1) PCGS registry allows (and highlights) CAC coins in their registry
2) It is unclear or clear if PCGS will include a CAC'd holder coin in PCGS Registry?
3) The plan is that CAC will start their own registry (s) that would include CAC holder coins and PCGS/NGC holdered coins that have received the CAC "bean". Coins that have been "beaned" would automatically cross to a CAC holder if desired.

If that is the accepted grading equivalence, and #2 above happens (maybe?), then why doesn't an NGC coin that has been CAC certified also be allowed into PCGS registry as well?

Also, will CAC holder error coins? I may have missed that discussion.

Keoj

SOME comments:

1. Yes, but the ONLY benefit in the PCGS Registry for CAC stickered coins is for the CAC only "Composite" sets, where every coin listed must have a CAC sticker. In the "regular" PCGS registry sets, having a CAC sticker on a coin is of no registry benefit.
2. At this point I'm not aware of any decision by PCGS, but in MY opinion, it's unlikely PCGS will allow CAC graded coins in their Registry. For business reasons PCGS does not allow NGC coins in the PCGS registry, so why would they allow coins holdered by CAC?
3. CAC will be having TWO registries. The first allows holders of several TPG's with or without CAC stickers. The second registry, more restrictive, will allow coins holdered from any TPG, as long as that coin has a CAC sticker (or is in a CAC graded holder). And yes, coins with CAC stickers will indeed automatically cross to a CAC graded holder at that same grade or better. If CAC deems the coin is an "A" coin in a holder with just a whole grade number, then it should cross at that grade, but as a plus grade.

Steve

shish

@winesteven I was simply responding to the question "Why would PCGS allow CAC grading company coins into their registry? Reminding @Skier07 that PCGS chose to include CAC approved coins.

We can only guess how much customer demand there will be to include CACG coins. If I was to guess I'd agree with you that PCGS might choose to exclude them.

The answer to @perryhall's question "Does PCGS allow NGC CAC approved coins in their registry?" is no. Only PCGS-graded coins can be used in their registry sets. However, many years ago I heard David Hall said that they would allow NGC graded coins at some time in the future.

winesteven

It's tough to read "tone" in a written post, but I suspect @PerryHall was being rhetorical with his question.

Steve

shish

Me too, but I wanted to be clear.